Zionism = Nazism = Racism

This comment proves that The New X really should not be allowed to speak.

heheheh

nah man i mean seriously.

Aryans thought of themselves as being the superior race. they sought to create a motherland by purifying it of it unwanted elements (jews, gypsies, homosexuals etc). They forcibly expelled those populations and subsequently ghettoized them and later "exterminated" many of them.

Zionists think of themselves as being superior and "god's chosen people". they sought to create a jewish supremacist state and in their attempts purified it of the unwanted elements (palestinians). They forcibly expelled the Palestinians from their homes and subsequently ghettoized the Palestinian population.

Warsaw ghetto = Gaza strip without the beneftis of international aid and human rights watchdogs.

but i suppose you're right. i guess i cannot compare zionism to nazism because the zionists havent actually begun to systematically exterminate the Palestinians. instead they choose to forever subjugate and oppress them.

Racism is the only way to successfully accomplish world peace! People will not someday all get along. We must foster hate and seperation. In that, we will find tolerance and that my friends, is as close to real peace as we'll ever get. There is just to many sacred held opinons for it to work any other way. It is the truth.

Here are the words of Avrahaim Stern, a Zionist of Zionists!: The resemblance to the Master Race is purely of his own design.

*****************************************

AVRAHAM (YAIR) STERN:

THE IDEOLOGY OF THE LEHI

National Revival Principles (HaTechiya)

The Fighters for the Freedom of Israel (FFI) - The LEHI

by Avraham (Yair) Stern, zt"l



1. THE NATION

The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.

2. THE HOMELAND The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.

3. THE NATION AND ITS LAND

Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is am absolute right. It has never expired and never will.

4. THE GOALS

1. Redemption of the land.

2. Establishment of sovereignty.

3. Revival of the nation.

There is no sovereignty without the redemption of the land, and there is no national revival without sovereignty.

These are the goals of the organization during the period of war and conquest:

5. EDUCATION

Educate the nation to love freedom and zealously guard Israel's eternal patrimony. Inculcate the idea that the nation is master to its own fate. Revive the doctrine that "The sword and the book came bound together from heaven" (Midrash Vayikra Rabba 35:8)

6. UNITY

The unification of the entire nation around the banner of the Hebrew freedom movement. The use of the genius, status and resources of individuals and the channeling of the energy, devotion and revolutionary fervor of the masses for the war of liberation.

7. PACTS

Make pacts with all those who are willing to help the struggle of the organization and provide direct support.

8. FORCE

Consolidate and increase the fighting force in the homeland and in the Diaspora, in the underground and in the barracks, to become the Hebrew army of liberation with its flag, arms, and commanders.

9. WAR

Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.

10. CONQUEST

The conquest of the homeland from foreign rule and its eternal possession.

These are the tasks of the movement during the period of sovereignty and redemption:

11. SOVEREIGNTY

Renewal of Hebrew sovereignty over the redeemed land.

12. RULE OF JUSTICE

The establishment of a social order in the spirit of Jewish morality and prophetic justice. Under such an order no one will go hungry or unemployed. All will live in harmony, mutual respect and friendship as an example to the world.

13. REVIVING THE WILDERNESS

Build the ruins and revive the wilderness for mass immigration and population increase.

14. ALIENS

Solve the problem of alien population by exchange of population.

15. INGATHERING OF THE EXILES

Total in-gathering of the exiles to their sovereign state.

16. POWER

The Hebrew nation shall become a first-rate military, political, cultural and economical entity in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean Sea.

17. REVIVAL

The revival of the Hebrew language as a spoken language by the entire nation, the renewal of the historical and spiritual might of Israel. The purification of the national character in the fire of revival.

18. THE TEMPLE

The building of the Third Temple as a symbol of the new era of total redemption.

**************************************************

The Zionist Terrorist organization, the Stern Gang, takes its name from this charming fellow.

From the River of Egypt to the Valley of the Euphrates, eh? Gee, looks like the Arabs were right to be concerned.

Three Unfortunate Accidents Of Geography



The Iraqi people's misfortune, as someone recently put it, is geographical - they have unintentionally been living on soil located precisely above American-owned oil. Many Iraqi people, men, women and children, have had to be killed by the Americans and their British subordinates - using weapons of mass destruction in a shocking and awful illegal invasion - in order for them to be set free. [Free of their oil?]

 

In the same way, the Boers had a century earlier found themselves living above the greatest goldfield in the world. The Boer War, which cost the lives of 26 000 women and children in British-run concentration camps, was financed, instigated and made possible in particular by the Jews Alfred Beit and his partner Julius Wernher [The Boer War by Thomas Pakenham (1979) pp 49, 88, 108, 119, 490)]. In this latter war, two independent republics were 'liberated' so that the Anglo American or more accurately Jewish (controlled) Corporation could quietly become the economic master of the entire region, the world diamond cartel/monopoly De Beers ultimately being controlled by the same Oppenheimer family who still call the shots in the gold industry. In the process of this war, men, women and children were killed or forced off family farms, and the farm houses and family holdings burnt, simply owing to this accident of geography. The resulting bitterness, of a particularly extreme form, has persisted almost until the present day, manifested in a profound distrust of the South African English-speaking community and their Jewish business and political associates, bedevilling local politics for generations.

 

The Palestinian tragedy is that the Palestinian people have continuously lived for some millenia on property that the international Jewish community decided about a century ago should become their own 'national home', on the basis of a delusion that their extremely distant ancestors had lived there. [The Jewish writers Arthur Koestler (in The Thirteenth Tribe, 1976) and Dr Alfred Lilienthal (in The Zionist Connection, 1978, pp 731-733) agreed with H.G.Wells. In the early 1920's in his popular Outline of History he described the Jews as 'a Turkish people' and stated that '(to the) Jewish Khazars.. are to be ascribed the great settlements of Jews in Poland and Russia' (chapt XXXII:8) and 'The main part of Jewry never was in Judea, and never came out of Judea' (XXIX:1).] This idea of taking over someone else's country, Palestine, and (inaccurately) calling it Israel, has been based on the very dubious legal principle that any real estate occupied at some stage very long ago for a period by any people actually remains theirs in perpetuity (with the proviso, of course, that they are Jews). The entire territory of what is today Israel and Palestine was Palestinian until 1947. Perhaps it is necessary to repeat: The entire territory of what is today Israel and Palestine was Palestinian until 1947. Back in 1917, the Jewish population of the area was a mere 7% of the 700 000 inhabitants. Nevertheless the British government was 'persuaded' to issue the 'Balfour Declaration', named after the British Foreign Secretary who made the following statement in a letter (significantly enough) to Baron de Rothschild, dated November 2 1917:

 

"Dear Lord Rothschild,

 

I have pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which have been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet: 'His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing will be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.' I shall be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour." The sentence in bold is particularly interesting in view of what has happened since then, aside from the fact that 'the Arabs simply said that western civilization has no right to impose the solution of the Jewish problem - a problem created by itself - on the Arab world' (Richard Crossman M.P. Palestine Mission (1947) p119).

 

The other 93% of the population were Arabs. In 1947 the United Nations under tremendous US pressure gave the Zionist Jews, who by then owned only about 6% of the land, 56% of the territory of Palestine.

 

Poor, poor Palestine. You have not yet been finally and violently entirely removed from the last broken and charred remains of your own territory by the most liberal international constituency in the entire world.

 

But, the pressure is building up...

The Weekly Informant.

Jewish Writers suggest Zionists behind Iraq War:http://www.theweeklyinformant.com/arishavit.htm

I remind you that Israel was born in the midst of hostile Arab nations. In fact, after Israel declared independence the Arab nations attacked Israel, unprovoked I must add. Gee, I wonder why the Israelis don't really trust Arabs. Must I also say that the all-holy United Nations approved the state of Israel.

Then The New X Says, "Zionists think of themselves as being superior and "god's chosen people". -- Is that not exactly what Arabs say, too- that they are "god's chosen people." Well, one things for sure, they use a lot of religious language to condone attacking Israel.



The New X then says "they sought to create a jewish supremacist state..... "--- Do I have to remind you that throughout the centuries Arabs and Muslims(including Christians, too) and the world have prosecuted Jews. Why wouldn't Jews want a Jewish state? Oh, and today's Israel is not a supremacist state either.

The New X continues with ..."and in their attempts purified it of the unwanted elements (palestinians).They forcibly expelled the Palestinians from their homes and subsequently ghettoized the Palestinian population." ---Guess what X, "When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay." and "The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. "In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre." These quotes are from the Myths and Facts book online. You can see these and their sources at----- http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#e -- This description doesn't sound like the expelling of Palestinians that you said.

By the way, did you know that in 2000 the Palestinians rejected the peace treaty offered by the Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak; it would have giving the Palestinians 95% of the land that they wanted,and no, the land would not have been seperated into "islands" surrounded by Israeli land as some people have said. Arafat didn't even offer a counter-proposal.

Also, here is what Zionism really is: "In 1975, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution slandering Zionism by equating it with racism. In his spirited response to the resolution, Israel's Ambassador to the UN, Chaim Herzog noted the irony of the timing, the vote coming exactly 37 years after Kristallnacht.

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland.

History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that Jewishness is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history. The realization of the Zionist dream is exemplified by more than five million Jews, from more than 100 countries, who are Israeli citizens.

Israel's Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to Jews, but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Approximately 1,000,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population. The presence in Israel of thousands of dark-skinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued almost 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

Zionism does not discriminate against anyone. Israel's open and democratic character, and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims, rebut the charge of exclusivity. Moreover, anyone — Jew or non-Jew, Israeli, American, or Saudi, black, white, yellow or purple — can be a Zionist." --- http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#e ---

Other answers can be found at: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

Knowing the actual facts would help you

People like you are just the continuation of anti-Semites the world has produced over it's long history.

The history of the israeli palestinian conflict did not begin in 1948.



By the time the Israelis declared their independence, the Israelis had only legally purchased less than 10% of the land that is now Israel. Furthermore, they completely NEGLECTED the fact that Palestinian people had their homes and farms in the land that is now Israel. Is it not realistic for the Palestinians to have opposed the creation of a Jewish state when their homes happened to be in that land? The FACT remains that when Jewish immigration began, Palestinians were already inhabiting the land, they had their homes and farms there. FORGET ABOUT RELIGION. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT EITHER JEWISH OR ISLAMIC BELIEF THAT THE LAND RIGHTFULLY BELONGS TO ANYBODY. THATS BULLSHIT. But like I said, the FACT remains that the Palestinians were living in that land. It is absolutely true that the Arab nations were wrong to have attacked Israel in 1948. At the same time, it was EQUALLY wrong of the Israelis to have so arrogantly declared independence with complete disregard for the Palestinians.

During and shortly after the Israeli war of independence, Palestinians were terrorized (literally) and forcefully expelled from their homes. Many fled in terror, taking along with them the keys to their homes which they fully intended to return to once the Israeli terror campaign ended.

Hence, the existence of Israel is morally unjust as it was brought about through the forced expulsion of Palestinian from their homes. If you are a capitalist, which I'm sure you are, you would agree that to have your property (land and house) stolen from you is illegal.

But for the Israelis, they are above the law.



Make no mistake, my anger with Israel has absolutely no religious basis. If the Jews want a state let them have a fucking state. Why the fuck would I care? But I care when they have to ethnically cleanse a population to get what they want because pure and simple, it is just wrong.

After all the Palestinians have been through (they had everything, now they have nothing - out of no fault of their own) why should they, after 50 years of this bullshit have to agree to a conditional settlement that offered them only 95% of what they wanted (although I would agree they were incredibly stupid to have rejected that agreement, they were completely justified in rejecting the settlement).

Why should not the Israelis (who had nothing, now have everything) be the ones making the concessions? The Israelis are even so arrogant that they refuse 100% responsibilty for the refugee crisis! Can you believe that!? Are they saying that even if the zionists had not established israel or emigrated to palestine there would still have a been a mass migration of the palestinian population?



Zionist leaders were FULLY AWARE that Palestine was inhabited and they were FULLY AWARE that problems would result from their attempts to create a state there. For that reason they looked at other countries in which they could establish their state.

The Israelis are single handedly responsible for the suffering of Palestinians.

Why is it you fail to address the very point of the fact that Zionism was an act of invasion in its very inception? The words of Stern actually state that all "aliens" must be expelled, that the land from the River of Egypt to the Valley of the Euphrates is the Zionist Homeland.

This has nothing to do with being a Jew, it has everything to do with being a Zionist.

The Zionists stated at the beginning that all the Arabs must go, and you wonder at the hostility of the very same? Here is a map of "Greater Israel" from the Zionist view:

As for a solution to the conflict.

heres from an earlier post.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed the first Jewish settlers bought the land but due to the new system of land ownership imposed by the Ottoman Empire, the purchase of the land was rather unjust. Lands that were collectively owned by the "Palestinian" villages were held in trust, and under the name of a few Palestinian Notables. These Notables later unjustly sold the land to the Jewish settlers (land that was actually collectively owned by the villagers and not by them). Although the sale was unjust, it is conceded that it is the Notables who are at fault for this injustice and not the Jewish settlers. There was nothing illegal bout the purchase of "Palestinian" land by the Jewish settlers. The point is that the Palestinians who attacked the Jews were bitter about the injustice of the land sales and were afraid that the increasing number of Jews entering Palestine would lead to the establishment of a state (worse still a Jewish state) in Palestine. Obviously their fear of the latter was well founded but granted, instead of attacking the Jews they should have taken out their bitterness on the Notables... that was a mistake and injustice on their part. Another point is that it is unfair to say that the settlers were attacked simply because they were Jewish. The "Palestinians" would have felt threatened (rightly or wrongly) by any nation trying to establish a state in an area in which their homes were located (the same way that a New Yorker would have felt if zionists had attempted to establish a Israel in New York - even if they had legally bought the land in New York). Finally, the land that was legally bought was a small percentage of the land inhabited by the "Palestinians".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever since the 1967 war and then later the 1973 war, Arab nations, particularly the Palestinians themselves (whether they like it or not) have come to realize that Israel will not disappear, that it is here to stay. Only extremist groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad still believe in the total destruction of Israel. When a Palestinian terrorist (under the orders of a Hamas leader for example), representing a minority, blows himself up in Israel, killing 20 innocent people in the process, Israel responds by reoccupying Palestinian towns, imposing curfews, practicing extra-judicial killings and punishments etc... (in other words they practice collective punishment on those who were not responsible for the bombing itself). This in effect, turns already bitter Palestinians, especially Palestinian youth, into impressionable targets for Hamas and Islamic Jihad brainwashers. (If you have noticed, it is not the leaders of these organizations themselves who practice suicide bombings, for they are cowards and lack the convictions of their own words - therefore they prey on the Palestinian youth, turning them into "instruments of evil"... more suicide bombers). Consequently, Israeli military responses are not helping to stop the cycle of violence but are rather adding fuel to the fire so to speak.

So why is it that Israel, not the Palestinian "nation" should cease its offensive military or terrorist operations first in order to break the cycle of violence? Frankly, It is because Israel is a highly organized and successful state and actually has the capability to stop a military operation (i.e. if a general orders a cease-fire the troops will obey orders). It is unrealistic for the Israelis to believe that the (let's say pathetic) Palestinian state can control the actions of certain fringe elements. It unrealistic to think that Hamas will listen to even a full-hearted call to end Palestinian terrorism from Yasser Arafat or ANY Palestinian leader.

The fact is that Hamas and Islamic Jihad will not stop until either Israel is destroyed or until they are destroyed. My point is that Israel cannot destroy the fabric of Palestinian terrorist organizations through its military incursions into Palestinian territories as their actions will in effect CREATE more terrorists.

What Israel must do is accept responsibility for the displacement of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in Israel and acknowledge that it was a grave injustice. In return the Palestinians should acknowledge that their insistence on the Right of Return is selfish and would create yet another injustice (i.e. if Israelis who, just as the Palestinians were, born and brought up in the area were forced to move to accomodate returning Palestinians). Israel should also relinquish control of 100% of the W. Bank and Gaza, help create a Palestinian state with E. Jerusalem as its capital and encourage the US to provide huge economic aid packages to rebuild the Palestinian state. By creating a moderate Palestinian society, the roots of terrorism will eventually die off. Needless to say, this time period will call for ENORMOUS restraint on the part of Israel - but in the long run the price will be worth it. Perhaps a joint Palestinian-Israeli security team or anti-terrorist task force could then operate more efficiently within both states to root out the leaders of terrorist organizations.

Why I believe Israel should make such massive concessions is because it is the only side that has the capability to make these concessions. It is ridiculous to think that the Palestinians in their current pathetic state can call for even a cease-fire.

Israel discriminates heavily against its Arab population.

>>Must I also say that the all-holy United Nations

>>approved the state of Israel.

And that, IMHO, is the best and biggest argument in favor of abolishing the UN.

For more than 30 years, since I was a child. Group X and group Y have been squabbling over that wretched piece of dirt.

Its a piece of dirt, people. It's not you. It's not your children. It's not your heart and soul.

YOU are NOT the dirt that you live on.

I've had Jewish friends in the past and have had this discussion with them.

My suggestion is - let the Arabs have the dirt and bring your families to the U.S.A.

THIS is the promised land.

Let’s See Now the Arabs Have no justification?

The same tired old justifications for the unjustifiable. Israel is a Terrorist State. The record of Israeli human rights abuses, racist treatment even of Arab Jews, is long and disgusting. Increasingly it is becoming well enough documented that it can no longer be refuted by the tired old chant of “Anti-Semitism” because increasingly their are, Praise God, many Jewish voices standing up and speaking out against Israeli Crimes.

Being opposed to Israeli, Zionist, Crimes is not Anti-Jewish (Arabs are Semites as well) it means one is opposed to the behavior of the Israeli State Terror Machine.

I am not surprised that Spread The Bullshit is a supporter of Israeli Ethnic Cleansing.



“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

— Yitzhak Shamir

Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist

in an August 1943 article titled “Terror”, written for Hazit

the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to



Do some homework:

Israel State Terrorism: http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/

Another Well Documented Link: http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/AmericanIsraeliTerrorism.html

Foreign Policy In Focus: http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/outside/commentary/2002/0204israel_body.html

Israeli Zionist Racism: The Jews of Iraq: http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

Heart Wrenching: http://www.mediareviewnet.com/Israeli%20state%20terrorism%20claims%20the%20lives%20of%20Palestinian%20children%20and%20civilians.htm

United Methodist Church Bishop’s Statement: http://www.umc-gbcs.org/advact105.htm

THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF ISRAELI AND ZIONIST TERRORISM: http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/differnttypesofzionsts.html

Open Directory Project Reference Page: http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Warfare_and_Conflict/Specific_Conflicts/Middle_East/Israel-Palestine/Terrorism/

It’s the Occupation Stupid: http://www.counterpunch.org/harris1228.html

Stop Spreading Bullshit is full of it---whoever said this last post should have at least tried to make a somewhat coherent argument like the New X did (New X- I'll try to respond to you later if I have time, this guy just really pissed me off). Did I ever state in my post that all of you are ignorant bastards who are anti-Jewish? Yes I did. Did I ever base my argument on that? No, I did not. You also just happen to leave out the Palestinian crimes. Did you ever realize that Yasser Arafat is connected to God-knows how many terrorist organizations. I thought terrorism was a crime? Are you justifying it? As long as the Palestinians commit terrorism how can you talk about Israeli "crimes" against the Palestinians? You also talk like I am a supporter of ethnic cleansing, but isn't it the Arabs stated goal to wipe Israel off the map along with all the Jews? What about the Palestinian uprising today, you probably think Ariel Sharon's vist to the Temple Mount started it. Well, your wrong.

"The Sharon visit did not cause the 'Al-Aksa Intifada.'" -----Conclusion of the Mitchell Report (May 4, 2001)

Here's some other quotes about Palestinians:

"In contrast (to Ariel Sharon's concrete steps to ease the economic hardship of the Palestinians) we've seen absolutely no response from Arafat to our urgings to him to now bring the violence to a stop. He has made no statements that would indicate that he even wants to see it stopped. In fact, he has called for the continuation of the intifada. He has not given any orders, secret or otherwise, to his forces which would bring some measure of control of the situation."---------U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affaires Edward Walker testifying at a congressional hearing

Here's the other one:

"We are teaching the children that suicide bombs make Israeli people frightened and we are allowed to do it..... We teach them that after a person becomes a suicide bomber he reaches the highest level of paradise." ---------Palestinian "Paradise Camp" counselor speaking to BBC interviewer

From that last quote, it seems like the Palestinians are pretty innocent in all of this. You should also get better websites to support your opinion to. Plus, get ones that don't rely on flying "Israeli swastikas" and shit like that. Maybe a site with something called credibility. I like the Open Directory Project Reference Page website since it chronicles one crazy Israeli settler and Palestinian terrorism. You see, at the 1972 Olympics a group of Palestinian terrorists kidnapped and killed Israeli athletes. The terrorist group who committed the crime was named Black September, and it was actually controlled by, the one and only, Yasser Arafat.

And by the way, you never seemed to respond to the fact that the Palestinians were offered 95% of the land that they wanted by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak at the 2000 Camp David Peace Accords. I would like to here your response on that. If the Palestinians would have accepted the deal there would be no so called "occupation." Oh, and your entire argument deals with the "Israeli State Terror Machine" and bullshit like that. Please use less emotionally loaded language. Oh, and you should do your homework.

Good link is www.us-israel.com for some facts

The truth is "hate speech" only to those who have something to hide

(updated)

This article was originally was written in response to efforts to conceal the Israeli spy scandal, the largest spy ring ever uncovered in the United States, behind cries of "hate" and "anti-Semite". I am not "anti-Jewish", I am anti-espionage. There's a difference. I don't blame the Jewish people for the crimes of the Israeli government and the Mossad any more than I blame Americans for the crimes of the United States Government and the CIA. Israel's supporters constantly spin any criticism of Israel's actions as hate against the Jewish people. Indeed so desperate are Israel's supporters to dismiss criticism of Israel while being unable to refute the actual facts that they have taken to describing Jewish critics of Israel as "self-hating Jews."

The current focus on the Israeli spy ring is about crimes committed against our nation by a foreign government, plain and simple, and whether one opposes those crimes or is accessory to those crimes by seeking to conceal them. There can be a no more dangerous path than for our government, our media, and our citizens than to ignore the presence of the largest spy ring ever uncovered within our nation simply because it is connected with a "protected" nation presumed to be above reproach or criticism.

I urge you to all to continue to contact your representatives and your local media and demand a full and public hunt for the spies in our midst. Those who seek to protect those spies by suppressing this story must be suspect.

In the wake of the revelation of yet another spy scandal involving the Mossad, involving the arrests of the largest spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, and the existence of a huge system that allowed Israel to track telephone calls by media, politicians, law enforcement, indeed all Americans, as well as the means to eavesdrop on actual calls by using the wiretapping system built into the telephone system by an Israeli owned company, any and all reports of this scandal have been met with the charges of "hate speech" and "anti-Semite". Recent weeks have seen supporters of the self-proclaimed Democracy of Israel resorting to endless hacker attacks and online smear campaigns against web sites and authors whose only "crime" is to not go along with Israel's agenda or of refusing to bury embarrassing scandals.

These phrases, "hate speech" and "anti-Semite", are well-worn devices to shut up a critic of Israel without having to answer the criticisms. Indeed they have been used so much that they have become red warning flags that the person using those phrases has something to hide and needs to shut down the discussion by any means possible. By screaming "hate speech" or "anti-Semite", Israel's supporters hope to shut down the debate without actually examining the issues involved.

I've run this web site for over 8 years. You can check through the pre 9/11 version of What Really Happened for yourself to see if I have had any excessive preoccupation with Israel during that time. Only since 9-11 have I paid any attention to Israel, and that solely because the ACTIONS of the government of Israel have called attention to Israel. In the wake of the spy arrests this is a story that Americans need to know about, to know that someone else may be listening when that phone is picked up, if the phone tapping system was actually paid for with the money we send Israel every year, to know what intelligence service may be blackmailing our government and media, and to what purpose. It is the deepest irony that the Anti-Defamation League that has blacklisted this vary web site for "hate", recently settled a lawsuit after being caught spying on Americans.

Israel's supports respond to any criticism by screaming, "He hates Jews!". The truth is that I don't hate the Jewish people. I know a lot of Jewish people and count as my friends the ones who are as respectful of me as I am of them. My first wife was Jewish. My closest business associate is Jewish.

What I hate are certain actions of INDIVIDUALS IN THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL. I hate the idea of someone spying on our nation's citizens. I don't like our own government to do it; why should I be any less opposed to a foreign government doing it? Why is it not reasonable to hate those who pry into our government, then use the information to coerce that government into actions contrary to the good of our own people? I hate that sort of behavior. All civilized people should. I would hate the perpetrators of the spy ring and the phone taping scandal if they were Russian, British, Lithuanian, Brazilian, whatever. That's a perfectly normal response to this crime.

Hate gets a bum rap. In our politically correct society we are taught that it's bad to hate at all, but I disagree. Hate can be a good thing. There are lots of things I hate and I am not ashamed to admit it. I hate liars. I hate thieves. I hate drug dealers. I hate corrupt politicians. I hate child molesters, especially those hiding their crimes behind the church. These are hates that are good for the people to have. Maybe if more people allowed themselves to hate liars, thieves, druggies, and the corrupt, our nation wouldn't be in the mess it's in. Think about that for a while. Hate can be good. Hate could actually save our country.

I hate those who presume to decide for us what we can and cannot see, hear, or read. I am firmly opposed to and have openly defied efforts by our own government to withhold from the people information the people need to make good decisions with. When the Israeli lobby coerces Fox News to erase the story about Israel's spy ring, should I be less outraged at the concealment simply because the censors are Israeli? To NOT speak out about a crime because the perpetrators are Israeli is racist. Because this is EXACTLY what we are dealing with. Crimes. Espionage. Illegal wiretaps. Interference with investigations. Under the definitions in the USA Patriot bill, the organized campaign by AIPAC and others to force Fox News to drop the espionage story is itself (technically) an act of terror.

To those who insist that the Israeli spy scandal should be ignored because it makes all of the Jewish people look bad, I ask if we should have ignored Jeffrey Dahmer's cannibalism because it made the people of Milwaukee look bad?

Speaking of racism, the ideal held forth in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence is that no one race is superior to others; that no one race should rule by virtue of being a specific race. We even fought a civil war partly on that principle, and while the United States has not always lived up to that ideal, we have never surrendered it as our goal. So, when Arial Sharon openly bragged on October 3rd that, "We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it", why should I not find this statement objectionable, and anti-American? Why should I not feel something less than affection for the man who made that statement? Why should a reasonable citizen of this nation not wonder to what extent Sharon was speaking the truth, especially in light of the manner in which Fox News was forced to erase the Carl Cameron stories?

As seen in the subtitle above, the truth is "hate speech" only to those with something to hide. In the wake of the exposure of this latest spy scandal, the government of Israel might have expressed some public regret or shame over treating its purported friend, from whom it gets more foreign aid than is given to the entire continent of Africa, in such a shameful manner. Instead what we have seen is censorship of the American news by a foreign power, apparently with the permission of a compromised or complicit US Government, and the shrill cries of "hate speech" and "anti-Semite" hurled at anyone who dared presume to notice or comment on what Israel has been caught doing.

If you want to know why Israel is so much in the news it isn't because of "hate" and it isn't because of "anti-Semitism", it's because foreign owned companies were caught bugging the phone system (including that of the White House) and foreign citizens have been arrested as part of the largest spy ring ever found in the United States and in the since-censored news story, the US Government admits to the existence of evidence linking those arrested spies to 9-11. That is NEWS, no matter what nationality is involved.

The good side to the Fox News incident is that for the first time, Americans got a good look at just how much power and influence over what we see and hear is being exercised. It doesn't even matter who did it; that it was done at all is the lesson for our time. In recent weeks, the same government that goes after kids for pirating music turned a totally blind eye to the massive hacking campaign directed at web sites critical of the official 9-11 story. People need to pay attention to that as well.

It is not "hate" to point out facts the American people should be paying attention to, especially on the threshold to what might turn out to be a world war started by deception.

It is not "hate" to point out that CNN followed Fox News' example by erasing their story about the 2 hour advance warning of the World Trade Towers attacks received by employees of Odigo, one of the companies implicated in the espionage case.

It is not hate to ask what really happened to USS Liberty.

It is not hate to ask if the Lavon Affair was repeated at the World Trade Center.

But if you want to see REAL hate in action, please read on.

1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies ­not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

9a. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

10. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

11. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.

12. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

13. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

There is a double standard at work. Israeli supporters prowl the internet and the media shouting "hate speech" not at those who actually hate, but at those who focus on the embarrassing truths Israel does not want Americans to think about while they pony up another few billions dollars. The good news is that Israel's supporters have screamed "hate speech" and "anti-Semite" so much that the phrases have lost their shock value, which means they have lost their value to silence. Certainly I am not concerned about any labels placed on this web site by an organization of acknowledged spies. Indeed I am gratified to be recognized as such a threat to their plans and purposes. I am proud that efforts to get the truth out are working.

This web site has had only one purpose since its creation; to make the cost of lies by politicians exceed the benefit of those lies, so that all government everywhere would discover that truth to the people is really the best policy. From the fear shown by Israel's supporters in their hacking, smearing, and blacklisting, it would appear that this web site has at least in part been successful.





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NEW

The readers respond.

I would like to second Mike's article (or rebuttal, shall we say?) to anyone who cries "hate" referring to any and all articles posted about Israel in the last couple weeks. Emails or letters of this sort are not about hate or racism, but about ignorance and political "correctness".

First of all, I have been frequenting www.whatreallyhappened.com for months now, and only in the last couple of weeks have I read anything relating to Israel, and never have I read any generalities referring to Jews as a whole. This alone shreds any theory of "anti-Semitism" or supposed bias that Mike Rivero has against the Jews. One would think that if he did have views like these he would have posted them long before the last couple weeks.

Second of all, I am personally a Northern European mutt, being one quarter Polish Jew, one quarter Irish, one quarter German, and one quarter miscellaneous mush.

I can point the finger at each of these "races" or nationalities and systematically give you example after example of why stereotypes of these people exist. So can you. This is not self-loathing; this is honesty. The honest truth about ALL races and nationalities is that most people are ignorant, and perpetuate these stereotypes. I will not go into examples, because that would immediately set off the false alarm sirens that go off in peoples' heads when they lie to themselves. The exact thing to realize is that none of that matters when you are searching for the truth.

Third, it is my belief that everyone on this planet is racist to a certain degree. No matter how many Rock Against Racism concerts or candlelight vigils you've attended, you still have your own personal bias against one race or nationality or another, whether it be at the arrogance of the "white race", or the womanization of the "white male". Why are both my examples about white people? Because that's the one race it's acceptable to criticize these days. It's a perfect example of racism. Or what is called today "reverse discrimination", a complete contradiction in terms. I truly believe that people gravitate towards people and things that resemble themselves. Ignorant white people are ignorant white people, ignorant black people are ignorant black people, and ignorant and blind defenders of Israel are ignorant and blind defenders of Israel. They gravitate towards each other.

Just like the person who likes baseball naturally gravitates and relates to another person who likes baseball, a person of any given background will naturally gravitate to and relate with people of the same background. We are not all equal. That is apparent in the entire history of civilization. Electricity was not discovered because your son failed the entrance exam to Harvard. The two have nothing to do with each other, right? Which in and of itself indicates a difference between your son and Benjamin Franklin, or whoever the hell really discovered electricity. Which leads to the fact that they are not equal, whatever race your son is. Finally, I would like to pose a question to anyone who is offended by these articles or their apparent bias against the Jewish people:

WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING THE TRUTH SO FAR AS TO VISIT SITES SUCH AS WHATREALLYHAPPENED BUT DENYING IT WHEN IT'S RIGHT IN YOUR FACE SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MEDIA HAS RAMMED THE SUFFERING OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE DOWN OUR THROATS SINCE WORLD WAR II?

Mike's viewpoints are obviously based on what he sees and feels in his mind, and not on what our anything-but-independent media has brainwashed us into thinking, feeling, and believing since you and I were alive. Maybe it's time you did the same, and start thinking for yourself. Try garnering information from all sources of alternative media, not only about what happened on 9/11, but about everything you've ever heard from the mainstream media. Then go back to the mainstream media, and you'll see why there's an alternative. Then you'll never want to watch CNN again, except to disprove the bullshit they feed you.

Have a nice day.

"Israel discriminates heavily against its Arab population."

I beleieve that Israel, having the overwhelming power in the situation needs to be the side to take a leap of faith and stop retaliation and end the settlements.

But.....this discrimination as it stands is a result of years of arab, not just palestinian, but arab rejectionism of an entire group of people, and the oft-repeated calls for their anihilation.

As long as the ENTIRE arab world blames ALL there problems on Israel and somehow feels that destroying all the Jews will make their lives better, any peace offerings Isreal could possibly make will be in vain.

I agree fully with what you said.

But when Israeli troops kill innocent Palestinian civilians in the process of hunting down militants and terrorists, can that not be used by Arab extremist leaders to brainwash moderate Arabs?

... The Stern Gang, the Haganah, and Irguun were not terrorists - right?

And the Zionists really didn't poison Arab Wells, or massarcre villagers (in the 40's) to drive them out either?

And the Zionists did not betray European Jews in Poland to get 200,000 Zionists shipped to Palestine either I suppose?

No one ever said they weren't. No one ever said that maybe they too weren't reacting to things like the Hebron riots and massacres.

The point is is that violence has obviously been employed on both sides as defense and terrorism.

As a supporter of Isreal, I'll admit that. But I've yet to hear any pro-palestinian accept any responsibility for arab violence.

...you miss my point. I am pro-humanity. Most of my ancestors were Jews - although I am the product of mixed lines - throw in a little Welsh, Iroquois and Sioux (Lakotah).

The first Religous Institution I ever visited was when my Grandfather took me to his Temple to show me off to his cronies.

My native sympathies are with and for Jews. My family is largely descended of German Jews. Many of my relatives were not among the pitiful few who survived the Holocaust. However, I will not turn a blind eye to evil done in the name of good even when it is committed by those with whom I share ties of blood and Kin.

I have commented elsewhere that I do not excuse terrorist acts on either side. What I get tired of is the supporters of the Zionist State excusing Jewish Terrorists who have provoked a reaction and then when the Palestinians angrily fight back, and are massacred, pointing an accusing finger without ever mentioning that which has gone before.

Well then, I'm sorry to have missed your point and any condemnation you may have made in the past in regards to arab violence.

I want to understand you. Do you believe that the awful situation existing today is a symptom of pure Zionist aggression. Or a circle of violence perpetrated by both sides for at least a hundred years. Or perhaps another reason entirely?

...however, I think you are approaching the right time frame when you say 100 years. Actually you need to go back a hair further to the late 1880's early 1890's. At that point in time Native Jews, Sephardim, Muslims, then in the majority, and Marionite Christians got along reasonably well. The Muslims were a bit insufferable, as is to be expected when you have different cultural groups and one in a large majority. However, in general the scene was relatively placid compared to today.

In the 1890's you get Theodore Herzl and the World Zionist Organization beginning their move into the region. From their things began leaving there uneasy, but livable, equilibrium and canting toward the enmity we see today.

That is of course a greatly simplified picture but I'm tired and have to get up early so I'll leave it dangling there for now.

It is enough to start picking up the threads if you are truly curious.

Try searching on Herzl, Zionism, Rothschild, Balfour, and Palestine.

Be prepared to have your eyes opened to the play of a larger game.

Read "The Jews of Iraq". I believe I saw it referenced in a link in a prior post on this thread.

Thanks for the ideas and we'll pick this back up.

Actually, i read quite alot concerning everything you mention.

I'm a bit obsessed with this particular history and situation.

This is what the above three words mean to me.. their root definitions



Zionism = attachment to or sympathy for israel (as in americanism.. but israel wasnt the name used when the term was coined)

Racism - believing one race (not necesserily ones own) has more rights or different rights to another

Nazism - attachment or sympathy for a national socialist government, as a part of this usually wanting to disadvantage (often kill) jews.

What are you adding to these definitions so as to make them equal? and why is that valid?

And all those sources are COMPLETELY objective and unbiased. Uh huh. Sure.

PSSST...Y'know, just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

I think the important thing to remember is

Anti-Zionist is not ANti-Jew

ANti-Taliban is not ANti-moslem

Anti-nazi is not anti-white

ANti-government is not anti-american

Most of the people that expound these extremist views

are wealthy psychotics who are able to finance these terrorist organizations

who are programmed losers filled with hate.

ANd sell off thier ideology to others who are unwilling to educate themselves to the truth.

...systemfailure.

Zionism was a largely secular political movement that was created under the premise that Jews can be only be safe in a state governed by Jews.

Racism is the belief that one's own race is superior to all others

Nazism was the German political movement where extreme racism was its central core.

If the Zionists had created a state in Antarctica. Nobody would have cared and there would be no conflict today. But instead, under the premise that they are "God's Chosen People" chose to establish a state in an area of land that was already inhabited. Furthermore, they employed some Nazi policies regarding the issue of how to treat non-Jews in the area. Forced expulsion, ghettoization and repressionwere all Nazi policies that are now conducted by Israel under the premise that the land belongs to Jews because of a 3000 year old historical right.

...Scotties Post is he/she/it proves his/her/it's complete and abysmal ignorance by the mis-definitions given.

Zionism: Is a political philosophy, as propounded by Theodore Herzl founder of the World Zionist Organization, is the belief that Jews would best exist in a country of exclusively Jewish cultural and Reigous dominance. While using Judaism as a Fig Leaf is has basically espoused a Marxist system of organization along with a belief in the inherent superiority of the Jewish People.

Racism: Is the belief that one group, by virtue of inherent superiorty, is superior to all other groups. Often used to justify the treatment of other human beings as something less that "real people".

NAZIism: Is a Political Philosophy centered around the inherent superiorty of the Aryan subspecies of the human family. It is defined largely by culture and by genetic membership in one of the Germanic Tribes. There is a lot more to it than this brief definition lines out.

However, to the perceptive mind certain patterns emerge.

...would be yours, presumably?

All you've done is reiterate the original premise, using 2-dollar words: "Zionism = Nazism = Racism"

.....these 3 words obviously are costing the U.S. billions a day

.... more than 2 dollars.

Do the math.

The proof is in our history, and it is once again repeating itself before our very eyes.

WWII has now bled into WWIII.

FACT, TRUTH & HISTORY spell it out clearly.

Zionists, especially those within the Nazi-funded Bush administration,

have proven now and throughout history,

that this so-called war is about killing lives for greed, racism, land and power.

Reiterate!

The only humans pushing this war are either involved beneficiaries or just plain ignorant.

"Zionists, especially those within the Nazi-funded Bush administration,"

Statements like this betray what a fuckinh idioy you are. Nice work.

You too are a fuckinh idioy.

...misses is that the mis-definitions (disinformation) is a way of controlling a dialogue.

It is a key tenet in Philosophical Debate is that he who controls the meaning of the language controls the debate.

While davemoron just loves to be the clASS Clown the serious underpoint to his seemingly childish reparte is diverting the dialogue and debate away from substance and into name calling.

Sorry if educated language troubles you Cave. Buy a Dictionary. That's a book that you can use to look up words in so you can learn what they mean. It even has words with more than one syllable.

If vocabulary with more than one syllable gives you trouble you can always go back to unFree Rezpublik.

Does anybody know where I can get a copy of "Philosophical Debate for Dummies?"

...buy the Dictionary first.

I reccomend the "Webster's New World Dictionary for Young Readers".

" mis-definitions (disinformation) is a way of controlling a dialogue. "

That is exactly what the New X is doing here.

Or anyone who loads words with emotional context because then you are biasing the language towards a certain viewpoint which is not conducive for honest debate.

Also your definitions are too narrow as for example most people would accept that zionism predates Herzl.. Nazism if it applies to aryans is not applicable to israels position and racism can occur in terms of "seperate but equal" or "I hate my own race"

...typical Indymedia in action.

No, Diogones, I don't have any trouble with big words. But I've heard that people who use them are trying to make up for other deficiencies...

Now suppose you explain to me why you DON'T hate Jews.

daveman, are you coming to the KKK meeting tonight? If so, remember to bring a white bedsheet.

...the crimes committed by the Zionist Movement, a political movement, has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Jewish sentiment. Anit-Zionist does not equal Anti-Jew. To attempt to make that inference is disinformation or ignorance speaking.

You will find a significant and growing number of Jews, including Orthodox Rabbi's, who do not consider Zionism to be in keeping with the Torah.

Further many of the founding Zionists of Israel were Russian Bolsheviks and Atheists. They were Jewish in ancestry only. Judaism and "anti-semitism have long been weapons used only to hamstring those who would point out their crimes. It's not like they believe in it.

So davemoron, try another propaganda line. It's all you have since you appear unable to think.

Fuck off, you liberal towelhead.

Nazi policies included forced expulsion, ghettoization and repression of certain populations. One of those populations were the Jews.

Now Israelis, who claim to honour the Jews who were victimized during the holocaust and the years preceding the holocaust are practicing Nazi policies on the Palestinians.

What is there to argue?

Fuck off, you liberal towelhead.

Zionism = Nazism = Racism

What's there to argue?

Fuck off, you liberal towelhead.

Zionism = Nazism = Racism

What's there to argue?

I know it's seems very clever to accuse Jews of the very evil that almost anihilated them but you are either a fucking monster or just incredibly naive.

Do you have no knowledeg of what happened to MILLIONS of Jews and Millions of other "non- Aryans" at the hands of the Nazis. Do you have any idea the degree to which several million people were tortured and summarily executed by nazis. How many millions of people were used for experiments and tossed aside alive to die in ditches they were forced to dig? Fuck you you subhuman.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING that has happened to the "palestinians" even remotely comes close to what the Nazis meted out on their victims. Prisoners of Auswitch din't have the chance to demonstrate, or strap explosives to their bodies and blow themselves up in a crowd of German civilians. They didn't have the chance to flee to America, go to college and beg the world for their "homes". The arabs in Israle, especially considering the century of violence and massacres that theyv'e been AN EQUAL party to along with Israeli's have been treated like Gold compared to how Hitler treated his victims.

Feel free to reveal what a fucking uneducated, unevolved savage you are by comparing ANYONE to the nazis. Keep using that term so loosely and maybe they will slip back. Hopefully, yhey'll decide to come after shit like you.

ok I agree. i went too far.

but forced expulsion, discrimination, ghettoization, repression, collective punishment, manipulation etc

all Nazi policies against the Jews

all Israeli policies against the Palestinians.

Its a huge exaggeration to say Nazism = Zionism

but it is absolutely realistic to say that the Israelis practice some Nazi policies on the Palestinians.

and you know its bad

when you have to resort to comparing Israeli policies with Nazi policies to defend israeli policies

"well whatever the Israelis do to the Palestinians wasn;t even half as bad as what the nazis did to the jews"

oh is that so? i guess that makes it alright then huh?

"but it is absolutely realistic to say that the Israelis practice some Nazi policies on the Palestinians."

Even that is an inane.

It's fair to say that Israel has responded in an overly heavyhanded manner to arab attacks. It's fair to say that Israel needs to be the side to initiate comprimises. And it's fair to say that palestine and it's supporters need to stop playing the victim, accept their responsibility and accept peace offerings when they are offered them.

Any talk of nazism and its policies is abhorrent.

How is forced expulsion and ghettoization not Nazi policies?

Look at the Gaza strip. Its a dump. The people are literally fenced in.

You're right. And of course you think that this is completely the result of racist, nazi-like designs of the Israeli's right? Except thta, plaestine could have had Gaza and the west Bank as their own land but they turned that down a few years ago when they decided that they wanted, ALL of Israel as theire. Furthermore, they claim to want to return to 1967 borders. The only problem is that in 1967, there was NO "plaestinian" land. the Gaza strip was Egypt and the Left Bank was Jordan and The Golen Heights weree Syria. So, when israel took over these lands after the war, all of a sudden, "palestine" is born.

The treatment of the people in these areas are abysmal. But the difference is and the fact that negates any nazi reference is that the policies od Israel stem, ostensibally from self defense. They have three areas of land bisecting their country from which military attacks came in 1967. Their approach has been way heavyhanded at times but any suggestion of "ethnic cleansung" or naziism is just palin stupid. The nazis killed for a racist idea. The Israelis have suppressed palestinians out of fear and self defense.

Of course it was the Palestinians fault for rejecting Barak's proposals. The Right of Return is justifiably theirs but in the context of the current situation it is a ridiculous demand. Palestinians returning to their former homes in Israel would call for forced expulsion of Israelis from their homes and would be just as much of a crime as it was for the Israelis to have expelled the Palestinian population from the land in 1948-49.

The fact remains that it was the forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that took place.

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

Please consider enlisting in the Zionist army. You sound as though you have as much hatred for those wicked Arabs as I do. You'd make a good killing machine.

"The fact remains that it was the forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that took place."

I ubderstand your position and I thank you for your posts, but I'd still like some actual examples of this buzzphrase, "ethnic cleansing".

I'd also like you to address the fact that Israel, by any definition or perspective, has a rightful claim, should they ever want to exercise it (which they haven't) to the lands of the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golen Heights since all three areas were "won" by Israel by defeating aggression on the part of their Arab neighbors in the Six Day War.

Please tell me how these lands are somehow inherently "palestinian" lands and not lost terretories of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

Please consider enlisting in the Zionist army. You sound as though you hate those wicked Palestinians as much as I do. You'd make a great killing machine.

It's pretty pathetic to see a phrase here like "Zionist Army."

What with have in the left wing extremist community (as typified by IMC and Pacifica Radio) is extreme dishonesty and disinformation.

Any fool can see that the Iraelis are the only good guys in the middle east. Any fool can see that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist and has always been a terrorist. Any fool can see that the Palestinians don't deserve an ounce of international sympathy so long as they support Arafat, Hammas, and other terrorists.

You leftist jerks are shooting yourselves in the foot by supporting a corrupt Palistinian regime.

Way to go, Bush Admirer. Whenever we conservatives get confused, we can always resort to simplistic labels unfounded in reality like "good guys" and "bad guys." Great job!

Comparing Zionism to Racism or Nazism is a joke. The only reason Jews wanted a return tio Israel was to get a safe haven from European anti-semitism and from the dhimini (non Sunni Moslems treated as second class citizens) of the Arab world. If you want to see apartheid go to Islamic saudi Arabia, where you can't be seen in public with a Bible or other non-Islamic text. Arabs get to vote in Israel, a right they don't have in most Arab countries, and the only reason the "Palestinians" don't have a country is because in their greed to keep Jews from owning a whole 1/10th of 1% of Middle Eastern land, they have consistently pissed away every attempt to give them a state going back to 1916. Don't forget also that there are 850,000 Sephardic Jews who fled Arab lands and could be held up as refugees if Israel was as cynical as the Arab countries. Lastly, anyone who wants to call Israelis Nazis better open a history book and see who was on Hitler's side in WW II (hint: they followed a guy called the Grand Mufti.

"...the only reason the "Palestinians" don't have a country is because in their greed to keep Jews from owning a whole 1/10th of 1% of Middle Eastern land, they have consistently pissed away every attempt to give them a state going back to 1916."

Unsubstantiated Allegation

For more on logic at your level, try reading "Logic for Dummies."

Good observation, debate coach. These fascists are constantly misquoting facts. I do wish they would cut it out.

That was me. I really wouldn't know a fact if one bit me on my pock-marked ass.

we will take all infantile comments as an admission of defeat.

Liberals=Leftist=Assholes.

Once the truth is told, nothing else needs to be said.

Conservatives=Fascists=Assholes.

Once the truth is told, nothing else needs to be said.

You scumbag pedophile!!!

^

by Ignatius • Monday July 14, 2003 09:27 AM



You hit the bong, I'll hit my crack pipe. I'll then hit the ass of a ten year-old boy.