Catholic Bishop Opposes U.S. War in Afghanistan; Calls For Examination of American Foreign Policy

Interview by Between The Lines' Scott Harris

The American public, according to opinion polls, is squarely behind President Bush's decision to launch a U.S. air war against Osama bin Laden and the Taliban government of Afghanistan which is sheltering him. Ever since the Sept. 11 terror attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the public has rallied behind the president and his tough talk declaring an open-ended war against the"evildoers" who took the lives of some 6,000 innocent civilians in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.

But on college campuses across the country and even on the streets of New York City, just a few blocks from "ground zero," tens of thousands of citizens are questioning the launch of a new war to fight terror. Protests organized by college students and veteran peace activists condemn the terrorists while resisting calls for war which many fear will lead to an ever more deadly spiral of violence. Some in the anti-war movement also argue that our nation must now ask the difficult question: "Why do so many people, particularly in the Muslim world, hate America?"

Between The Lines' Scott Harris spoke with Catholic Bishop Thomas Gumbleton of Detroit. Gumbleton, who has been an outspoken critic of U.N. economic sanctions against Iraq, proclaims his opposition to the war in Afghanistan and argues for a thorough examination of U.S. foreign policy to strike at the roots of terrorism (A RealAudio Version of this interview may be found At http://www.btlonline.org).

To receive Between The Lines Weekly Summary and/or Q&A, email btlsummary-subscribe@topica.com and/or btlqa-subscribe@topica.com

than I ought.

But by saying that we must "ask the difficult question 'why do so many people hate America", its seems to me that you are suggesting that we will not like the answers.

You seem to be suggesting that when we find the answer to that question we will realize that, yes, we are in fact the Great Satan.

Otherwise, what would be the "difficulty" in asking that question?

The mere fact that millions of people hate the US, some enough to die trying to kill us, does NOT mean that they have legitimate grievances.

Some of these people are upset because we allow Israel to exist. They would like to see the entire state of Israel demolished, and every Jew there killed or expelled.

Hmmm. If that's the reason, should we not tell these folks to go f themselves?

The difficulty in asking the question "why do so many people hate America" has less to do with our fear of the answer than it has to do with our inability to wrap our lips around those words in the first place. Ask yourself how many CNN documentaries have you seen on this subject? Not many, right? Could it be corporate media has a hard time with critical questions? And if most Americans are spoon-fed daily doses of corporate media, with no antidote in sight, then hey, we are going to have a difficult time with this question.

And even if you do run across the question somewhere, say on an indymedia site, what might your response be if you lack an ability to consider the question critically? Might you suggest that because some critics of the US hate that the US "allows" Israel to exist, then follow that this position is wrong, then somehow conclude that all the criticism must also be wrong? What kind of ill-education would allow for such false logic, even if the premise was not as faulty as it obviously is?

First of all you can't reduce all the critics of US foreign policy to people who don't want Israel to exist. This is a straw man. It is a simplistic construction designed to shore up a weak and faulty argument. There are many critics of US foreign policy who may simultaneously entertain the idea that Israel can or should exist. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

Second of all, if we can temporarily put aside all consideration of Israeli legitimacy in regards to the Palestinian minority in that country, we may find that the US has done way more than simply "allow" Israel to exist. History is very clear on this point. The US has used its veto power on the UN security council to come to the defense of Israel countless times, despite overwhelming criticism of the global community. The US supports Israel both economically and militarily. The wealth of support the US has given Israel over the past several decades indicates to the world a degree of complicity beyond simply "allowing" Israel to exist.

Thirdly, "The mere fact that millions of people hate the US, some enough to die trying to kill us, does NOT mean that they have legitimate grievances." Is on the surface a correct statement, but I fear it leads some un-critical thinkers to presume that therefore NONE of those grievances are correct. In point of fact, if those grievances were not so widely accepted in large measure around the world then those 'crazies' we are all so worried about wouldn't have such an easy time signing up new converts. Might I also suggest that American arrogance regarding these matters (or willful ignorance) also contributes greatly to the numbers of those who are willing to die for the cause of damaging the US. Our recent actions have done little to stem this trend.

As for telling the 'folks' to go f themselves, well that is your prerogative. I would save such invectives for those who refuse to address the question in a critical many. Those are the folks we really need to worry about.

The difficulty in asking the question "why do so many people hate America" has less to do with our fear of the answer than it has to do with our inability to wrap our lips around those words in the first place. Ask yourself how many CNN documentaries have you seen on this subject? Not many, right? Could it be corporate media has a hard time with critical questions? And if most Americans are spoon-fed daily doses of corporate media, with no antidote in sight, then hey, we are going to have a difficult time with this question.

And even if you do run across the question somewhere, say on an indymedia site, what might your response be if you lack an ability to consider the question critically? Might you suggest that because some critics of the US hate that the US "allows" Israel to exist, then follow that this position is wrong, then somehow conclude that all the criticism must also be wrong? What kind of ill-education would allow for such false logic, even if the premise was not as faulty as it obviously is?

First of all you can't reduce all the critics of US foreign policy to people who don't want Israel to exist. This is a straw man. It is a simplistic construction designed to shore up a weak and faulty argument. There are many critics of US foreign policy who may simultaneously entertain the idea that Israel can or should exist. The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

Second of all, if we can temporarily put aside all consideration of Israeli legitimacy in regards to the Palestinian minority in that country, we may find that the US has done way more than simply "allow" Israel to exist. History is very clear on this point. The US has used its veto power on the UN security council to come to the defense of Israel countless times, despite overwhelming criticism of the global community. The US supports Israel both economically and militarily. The wealth of support the US has given Israel over the past several decades indicates to the world a degree of complicity beyond simply "allowing" Israel to exist.

Thirdly, "The mere fact that millions of people hate the US, some enough to die trying to kill us, does NOT mean that they have legitimate grievances." Is on the surface a correct statement, but I fear it leads some un-critical thinkers to presume that therefore NONE of those grievances are correct. In point of fact, if those grievances were not so widely accepted in large measure around the world then those 'crazies' we are all so worried about wouldn't have such an easy time signing up new converts. Might I also suggest that American arrogance regarding these matters (or willful ignorance) also contributes greatly to the numbers of those who are willing to die for the cause of damaging the US. Our recent actions have done little to stem this trend.

As for telling the 'folks' to go f themselves, well that is your prerogative. I would save such invectives for those who refuse to address the question in a critical manner. Those are the folks we really need to worry about.

ILLUSTRATIVE.

Respectfully, I think you have an American-centric point of view. One that suggests that the US is the center of the Universe.

The result of this thinking is that American conduct is viewed without proper perspective.

As an example, if you go to Human Rights Watch's web page, you will see a whole section devoted to supposed human rights violations in the US. To read it, you would think this nation is hell on earth.

However, if you continue on and read what is going on in countries such as Angola, where the government cuts off the ears of political dissidents, or Barundi, where more than 120,000 have died and 1.3 million have been displaced in the civil war since 1993, etc.

It seems many people on this page are very quick to seek out some way to attribute every attrocity in the world to the US.

(Eg. Where are being blamed by some for the Taliban's human rights abuses because, gasp, we aided them in their effort to expel the Soviet invaders! Was it wrong to help the people of a very poor country kick out foreign invaders? Were the Soviet's respectful of the human rights of the Afghanis?)

I find that desire to blame the US for everything VERY troubling, and false.

It is incorrect to attribute all the ills in the world today to the US. If you have a grievance against those who would make such a case I suggest you bring it to them directly. Neither Bishop Thomas Gumbleton nor I have ever tried to make that case. If you read carefully you will see that Bishop Thomas Gumbleton is asking for nothing more than a "thorough examination of U.S. foreign policy". A fairly liberal question, wouldn't you think? It is inconceivable that you find an objection to such a mild request. As for me I would like to see more people engage the question "why do so many people hate and fear the US" critically. I wish only to ask the question, you are free to come up with whatever knee-jerk response is most comfortable for you, but if you engage the question critically you might see it as the rest of the world sees it. It is a fact that the US is among the wealthiest nations in the world. It is a fact that the US is among the most militarily endowed. It is debatable if the US abuses this power over other Nations of the world. It is a fact that the vast majority of the world perceives US foreign policy as out of control and unaccountable to any world body. One should be able to say these things and NOT be accused, as you have tried to imply, of blaming ALL the worlds problems on the US. The false conclusion is unwarranted. But failure to recognize even this much - the facts I have itemized above - constitutes denial, pure and simple. If you are that steeped in denial critical thinking will be of no help to you.