This transcript has not been checked against videotape and cannot, for that reason, be guaranteed as to accuracy of speakers and spelling of names. (DSM)
[ see a slightly different edited version here:
http://www.rapstation.com/promo/lars_vs_chuckd.html ]
CHARLIE ROSE Transcript #2681
May 12, 2000
CHARLIE ROSE, Host: Welcome to the broadcast.
How free should the Internet be? Tonight, Metallica's Lars Ulrich and rapper Chuck D of Public Enemy on the legal war over free music downloaded on the Internet.
CHUCK D, Rapper, Public Enemy, Founder of rapstation.com: What is gonna take place now is that, you know, the computers have allowed the Internet to actually expose music throughout the world -- a greater exposure point -- and for an industry that has prided itself off the enthusiasm of the fans, it's really funny hearing them trying to put their hands up and saying, ``Well, this is the biggest thing since the Beatles, but we have to stop it.''
LARS ULRICH, Drummer, Metallica: There's millions of dollars involved in this in the same way that there's millions of dollars in the evil of music business as you're saying.
CHARLIE ROSE: Sure.
LARS ULRICH: And I just think that it's, like, if the record-company bosses don't take the money, then the Internet people are gonna-- somebody's gonna profit off this.
And, if it's the not the artist, then you're profiting illegally. It's bullet-proof.
CHARLIE ROSE: Also tonight -- the art of war, not as defined by Sun Tzu, but by some artists who were hired to put World War II on canvas.
EDWARD REEP, War Artist: I'd go out after the camps, after the marches and I'd paint in the fields. That was my job. They say to paint the war.
I wanted to get to the front. I wondered what the front lines looked like.
ROBERT GREENHALGH, War Artist, ``Yank'' Magazine Artist: That's what I do is try to express the feeling of it. The camera can do it better, a lot better than I can do it.
But I can give you a little bit of movement that maybe the camera won't give you 'cause I'll exaggerate it a little bit.
BRIAN LANKER, Director: It's rather enlightening and surprising. We don't think of the military generally in those terms. You say, ``Artists, go out, experience the war, interpret it for us, and bring it back so we can better understand it.''
CHARLIE ROSE: And finally -- from the art of war to the art of the fad, The New Yorker magazine's Malcolm Gladwell on how something small can be the start of something big in the way we behave.
MALCOLM GLADWELL, ``The New Yorker,'' Author of ``The Tipping Point'': Well, The Tipping Point is word that comes from study of epidemics. It's to describe that moment in the epidemic when it explodes, when the moment of critical mass.
And, if you look at every epidemic, there is always that moment when the curve suddenly shoots up very sharply and dramatically. And so understanding how you can get to The Tipping Point is really this-- is the critical question when you're looking at something that's contagious.
CHARLIE ROSE: Music wars on the 'Net, a world war on canvas, and fashion wars in society -- next.
Recording Artists Debate Distribution of MP3s On-Line
CHARLIE ROSE: A wildly popular web site called Napster has changed the landscape for pop-music fans who download music on the Internet. Downloading music files isn't new, but using the web to share music files among thousands of other fans for free is not only new, it is controversial.
Through Napster, digital recordings copied by web users can be copied by anyone else accessing the site, creating a copying frenzy. And it's all free to the user.
That's put Napster on the catching end of lawsuits from artists and from the recording industry, which wants the web site shut down. Just this week, a federal judge in California ruled against some of Napster defense, a ruling the company plans to appeal.
Among the lawsuits pending against the company is an action filed by the legendary heavy-metal group Metallica. This week, the band insisted that Napster block access to more than 300,000 fans who have downloaded Metallica music through the site.
The company said it would.
Joining me now for a conversation on this complex issue is Lars Ulrich, who has manned the drums for Metallica for the past two decades; and Chuck D, lead rapper of the group Public Enemy, who supports Napster and the free exchange of popular music on the Internet.
And, because this is so timely and so controversial and so intense in the debate because a lot of things are at stake here, I am pleased to have two people -- especially these two -- here to talk about it.
What is it about this? Give me in essence -- you know, the-- strip it away-- Why this is for you such a bad thing that you want to stop it?
LARS ULRICH, Drummer, Metallica: In essence it's about control. It's really about controlling what you own. You know, we clearly own our own songs. We own the master recordings to those.
And we want to be the ones that control the use of those on the Internet. That's it in essence. So, we are going after Napster legally, in a legal forum, but at the same -- which is becoming increasingly important to us -- is to try and get this debate out into the public forum, to try and make people understand what's at stake here and what the ramifications are if this is not something that's dealt with and sort-of guided into some sort of-- with some sort of parameters that makes the artists, the service providers, and the fans out there happy.
CHARLIE ROSE: What's at stake?
LARS ULRICH: What's at stake is really the control of it.
CHARLIE ROSE: An artist's right to own and control his own art?
LARS ULRICH: Control, yes.
That's what's at stake for us right now. At the same time, this is something that changes every 15 minutes with the advent of another technological wonder. So, you can only sort-of try and trail right behind where technology's going.
But right now what's at stake is controlling that and trying to set some parameters for the future.
CHARLIE ROSE: And people will say just this point -- you talk about ``there's a new technological development'' -- that what you guys are trying to do is stop technology. And you can't do that.
LARS ULRICH: No, we cannot.
CHARLIE ROSE: And there's no way you can do that.
LARS ULRICH: We're aware of that, of course. So, what we're trying to do is -- as the first artist to basically come forward and set our foot down and say, ``Wait a minute, time out for one second. Let's just sit down and deal with this and try and get both a public debate going on how to control this for the future.
And also in the course of a legal forum to try and go after Napster and show the other upstart companies out there that provide similar services that, if you are going to do this, you are gonna have people like Metallica with very deep pockets who are very tenacious and very emotionally involved in trying to fight this on your back all the time and whether that's something that you want to continue pursuing--
CHARLIE ROSE: People say-- just again, your very point. They say, ``You've got such deep pockets. Music has been so good to you. You've made so much music that so many people love, why worry if a few people get a few free copies?''
LARS ULRICH: Well, it's really not-- I mean, right now it's not about the money. It's really about the control and about the future.
The money that's being lost right now in this revenue is pocket change. It's really about-- to me the core issue is it's sort of people's perception of the Internet-- people's perception of what their rights are as an Internet user and how it relates to intellectual property.
You've got the most extreme people sitting right now going, ``Anything that comes through the Internet, through my computer, is mine to own. And I have the right to it.''
And that type of train of thought, I think, is very, very dangerous-- does not just affect musicians. It affects anybody who creates any type of original work. And that is something that really has to be dealt with-- that there's a thing that people take it for granted that because it comes through the computer, through the Internet, that they have a right to it.
It's a very, very dangerous position to take.
CHARLIE ROSE: You think this is the first step on a very slippery slope.
LARS ULRICH: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: That will lose-- that will lead to the artist losing all control?
LARS ULRICH: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: Of the work.
LARS ULRICH: And not just musicians. All artists who create anything from scratch -- absolutely.
CHARLIE ROSE: People also say, ``People have been recording songs off the radio for a long time. People go to your concerts, and they record your songs.''
LARS ULRICH: And we advocate that.
CHARLIE ROSE: I know you do.
So, what's the difference?
LARS ULRICH: Well, the difference is basically-- having a perfect, first-generation digital copy of the song is basically equivalent to owning the original master CD that we sell in the stores.
So, people-- we encourage people to tape our music at concerts. We have no particular issues with home taping because you're talking about clear generation losses. But, when it is the original master recording of our song available in a perfect digital format, that is a different story.
CHARLIE ROSE: Even though they're not gonna sell it? Even though it's just for personal use? Even though--
LARS ULRICH: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: None of that matters.
LARS ULRICH: It's--
CHARLIE ROSE: In the end, it's control?
LARS ULRICH: At the end of it, it's control. And it's about the people-- part of what we're trying to do here is make people understand that what they're doing is illegal. I'm not even get into the moral issue. But it's illegal.
And, if we can get -- one by one -- people--
CHARLIE ROSE: 'Cause it's theft of property in your judgment?
LARS ULRICH: It's theft of a property -- absolutely.
CHARLIE ROSE: All right.
You're an artist.
CHUCK D, Rapper, Public Enemy, Founder of rapstation.com: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: Public Enemy-- you don't want your stuff taken away.
CHUCK D: Well, I look at Napster as just being a version of new radio. I look at-- in all due respect to Lars and Metallica-- they have an issue where they own their masters and they control their realm.
And they want to talk about control of their realm, which is warranted and granted, indeed. But they're the exception to the rule.
I think the degree of artistry over the last 15 to 16 years has proven that the music business has been the one in control of the artist's destiny -- throwing them in, throwing them out.
And right now, this war goes beyond their heads. This is like the power goes back to the people 'cause the industry has over the 15, 16 years has been accountant- and lawyer-driven. And it hasn't been about the artistry.
And I look at Napster as a-- as a situation or the connection between file-sharing, which this is, and downloadable distribution, as power going back to the people.
I also look at this as being a situation where for the longest period of time the industry had controlled technology. And therefore, the people were subservient to that technology. And whatever price-range that the people would have to pay for it.
CHARLIE ROSE: But where do-- where does the people's power stop?
CHUCK D: Well, I don't--
CHARLIE ROSE: Where does an artist--
CHUCK D: Number one, this-- Number one--
CHARLIE ROSE: Where does an artist have the right to say, ``Look--''
CHUCK D: Artist is barely--
CHARLIE ROSE: ``I built a life developing my art, defining my craft, meshing talent, and producing a product. And now you want to say to me, `Everybody can have that product'? Everybody that can download off of the Internet has a right to my product without--''
CHUCK D: You brought a good point.
CHARLIE ROSE: ``--compensating me.''
CHUCK D: You brought a good point yourself, that even in 1967 when FM radio came about and there was this big outcry that the quality of the radio is actually gonna take the artists' music and take away from their sales point. When cassette recorders came in, it was this -- ``Aw, they're gonna rob-- they're gonna take away from the sales.''
And this has proven to be contrary to what has happened. Matter of fact, this is a super-turbo-booster to the industry.
What is gonna take place now is that, you know, the computers have allowed the Internet to actually expose music throughout the world -- a greater exposure point -- and for an industry that has prided itself off the enthusiasm of the fans, it's really funny hearing them trying to put their hands up and saying, ``Well, this is the biggest thing since the Beatles, but we have to stop it until it gets regulated.''
And the industry for long has driven out contracts which claim worldwide rights, which they have never been able to fulfill.
CHARLIE ROSE: But, if I understand your argument--
CHUCK D: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: And you've written about this eloquently.
--is it is that this the Internet and downloading music is the only way some artists have a chance of reaching an audience.
CHUCK D: Right. Well, I foresee--
CHARLIE ROSE: It's not gonna happen.
CHUCK D: I foresee in two years there'll be a million artists and there'll be a million start-up labels.
And for the longest time the labels' dominance have kept the little man from participating in the music business. They're screaming and crying because they'll have to share the marketplace.
I don't have a problem with that. I looked at the major labels and their dominance -- being lawyer- and accountant-driven -- counting what's not there and then coming up and concocting a situation like, ``This will hurt the music industry,'' when there's actually no proof.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Lars would agree the 336 that he named--
CHARLIE ROSE: Thousand.
CHUCK D: Three hundred fifty thousand people are Metallica fans.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, well, of course the other argument is that they could come back with some other name [crosstalk]
CHUCK D: And I also would-- I also would--
LARS ULRICH: You close out one fire at a time. I mean, that's clear. I mean, just because-- for every counter-argument that somebody has-- ``Well, do you realize, you know, that somebody else--''
It's like you can only deal with it one step at a time. I mean, that-- sort of like you're just gonna sit there and say, ``Well, there's always somebody who can, you know, build another nuclear warhead.'' So, does that mean that you shouldn't go and destroy the ones that exist already?
So, you take it one step at a time. The odds are obviously against us. But we believe that for us it's the right thing to do. And I agree with a lot of the things that you're saying.
CHARLIE ROSE: But where do you disagree with him?
I mean, in other words, are you guys talking past each other? You agree young artists ought to have an opportunity to find an audience? Or do you--
LARS ULRICH: Well, what I agree with is that I think that for artists that want to use Napster as a vehicle to get out there I have no problem with that in the same way that I don't want people to have a problem with me not wanting to use Napster.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK. So, here's our solution.
LARS ULRICH: As a vehicle. Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: If you don't want it to be downloaded, then don't download it. If you're a young artist who needs an audience, download it.
What's wrong with that?
LARS ULRICH: I mean, the problem-- that's--
CHARLIE ROSE: Is that your argument? I mean, is that--
LARS ULRICH: Well, yeah.
I mean, my analogy is to the Book-of-the-Month Club situation, where every month you get a book in your mailbox and, if you don't send it back, if you don't go to the trouble of sending it back, you have to pay for it.
So, what Napster could have done is they could have gone to all the artists and they could have said, ``We are starting this service. We're providing this service. Would you like to partake in it?''
And give everybody a chance to say, ``yes, thank you'' or ``no, thank you.''
CHARLIE ROSE: Oh, I see.
CHUCK D: Technology will beat technology each and every time. I would counter the fact that exposure to a product will still drive that fan base to go pick up that product and still contribute to the bottom line of an artist or a business anyway.
And the whole paradigm of the music business is changing because there is another parallel music world to the one that has been dominated by the former rules. And the former rules are out of the door, like an old baseball game.
The new rules of music-sharing, music distribution, music exposure are now globalized. And I take to it, like, OK, you're in the outfield. It's raining. But the ump says, ``Play ball'' anyway.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
CHUCK D: You know that, if you're gonna catch a fly ball, you have to run different on the wet-- on the wet grass.
CHARLIE ROSE: Sure.
CHUCK D: You're not gonna be able to beat the technology. It's almost like dropping a whole bunch of M&Ms on the ground when you had control over it. Now, everybody's gonna bend down and pick it up. And you can't say, ``Stop!'' You know?
CHARLIE ROSE: Let me ask you. You're in the movie business, too. Right?
CHUCK D: I do scoring. I'm not in the movies.
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, OK.
But, I mean, you're in the-- You do scoring for movies.
CHUCK D: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: Suppose you make a movie. And we get the capacity to download--
LARS ULRICH: Which we will.
CHARLIE ROSE: --and you financed the damn movie. You know, and you hire the actors. And you score it. And you go out, and you bring musicians in.
And I'm sitting there at my Internet site and somebody creates software so I could download your movie. And I'm not going to the theater to see your movie.
CHUCK D: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: And I'm not gonna buy a cassette, and I'm not gonna buy a DVD.
CHUCK D: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: I'm gonna take my little equipment and download that sucker.
CHUCK D: I better understand that I better not spend a lot of money making that movie -- number one.
CHARLIE ROSE: But you don't have any problem with that.
CHUCK D: And then--
CHARLIE ROSE: Because you are saying to me--
CHUCK D: I can't have--
CHARLIE ROSE: --``That's the new world.''
CHUCK D: I can't have the accountant's mentality of counting what wasn't there in the first place. Accountant mentality is like ``Oh, you shoulda-- you coulda had--''
And now the terrain is totally different.
CHARLIE ROSE: So, you're saying to all artists that create products that can be downloaded -- either now or later, 'cause it's all coming.
CHUCK D: It's all digital.
CHARLIE ROSE: You're saying, ``Anything that can be digitized-- if you're an artist, look, it's gonna be shared.'' And it's gonna be a certain amount of people who have an interest in the technology are gonna theirs free.
CHUCK D: That's--
CHARLIE ROSE: ``Wake up and smell the coffee.''
CHUCK D: That's the technology that's come into place. And the only thing that can stop it--
CHARLIE ROSE: And you say to Lars, ``Forget it.''
CHUCK D: I'm saying--
CHARLIE ROSE: ``It's a losing battle--''
CHUCK D: I'm talking to Dr. Dre last weekend.
CHARLIE ROSE: What did Dr. Dre say?
CHUCK D: Dr. Dre was basically clueless. He's just like, ``Hey.'' You know, so his lawyer-- And Lars is probably more connected to the lawyer. And, you know, Dre's a, you know, good friend.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.
CHUCK D: And, if the lawyer say, ``Dre, they're taking money out of your pocket,'' then Dre say, ``Hey, yeah. Stop it.''
CHARLIE ROSE: Stop 'em.
Stop 'em now.
CHUCK D: But the issue at hand is bigger than-- is bigger than all this. And so--
LARS ULRICH: I just wish that I could sit here and tell you, Charlie, that it was about the money. You know, it's clear we have respect that we have different opinions on this. But I just believe--
CHARLIE ROSE: It's about the control.
LARS ULRICH: Yeah, and what you were saying about-- Of course, there will be, you know, in a year or five years or whatever there will be software as you can download movies.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
LARS ULRICH: I mean, this goes everywhere. This goes literature, poetry, the whole nine yards.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
LARS ULRICH: It really is about this whole perception about if it's intellectual do I have a right to it for free because technology allows--
CHARLIE ROSE: If it can be downloaded, it can be free is what somebody's gonna say.
LARS ULRICH: And this is gonna throw commerce and the whole perception of all this stuff completely on its head. And does it mean that the only thing that you can't apply to are people working in assembly lines.
CHUCK D: But, Lars, I think it--
LARS ULRICH: I think it's just--
CHUCK D: I think it--
CHARLIE ROSE: I know.
CHUCK D: I think it's beneficial to trigger off the enthusiasm of what's taking place. You got budding Metallica fans that, you know-- and that will increase. But there will-- There's so many ancillary areas that you guys control that you won't be able to download, that they gotta come to you for.
And we have to look, you know, the sound-- As dominant as it was in the last 50 years, our industry controlling the hardware and making you-- you know -- also, you know, have the software that you have to comply to both. That whole paradigm has changed.
So, now it has to be other ancillary areas. Now, many artists will have the opportunity to actually interact with the global aspect of the world.
LARS ULRICH: And we look forward to being--
CHUCK D: And they couldn't do that when the companies couldn't do that. Now, of course, if we talk about ``control,'' you know, that's a microcosm of what the big, big boys are gonna actually say themselves.
Like, ``We have control.''
LARS ULRICH: Charlie, one really--
CHARLIE ROSE: All right [unintelligible]--
LARS ULRICH: --important issue quick, which is that I think that most of what you're saying deals with the record company being these money-hungry, you know, greedy blah-blah-blah.
Remember one thing. I can guarantee you that there is nobody at Napster that is doing this as a charitable event for all of mankind. OK? There are investors behind Napster. And there are people that are sitting counting the days 'til Napster has an IPO offering.
And they'll make millions of dollars in return for their work.
CHUCK D: But there's always been the shadow of technology lurking over entertainment anyway.
LARS ULRICH: Right, but--
CHUCK D: And there's definitely been two different worlds.
LARS ULRICH: But there is millions of dollars involved in this in the same way that there's millions of dollars in the evil of music business as you're saying.
CHARLIE ROSE: Sure.
LARS ULRICH: And I just think that it's, like, if the record-company bosses don't take the money, then the Internet people are gonna-- somebody's gonna profit off this.
And, if it's the not the artist, then you're profiting illegally. It's bullet-proof. I mean, it's simple.
CHARLIE ROSE: All right. Are you--
It's ``bullet-proof'' meaning what? Meaning that the argument is--
LARS ULRICH: Who can argue with that?
CHARLIE ROSE: All right.
Here's my point, too. Do you-- you know, when you say, ``It's not about the money''--
LARS ULRICH: It's not about the money now.
CHARLIE ROSE: When you say, ``It's not about the money,'' somebody says, ``It's about the money.''
You know? It's always true. When somebody says, ``It's not about the money,'' somebody says ``It's about the money.''
LARS ULRICH: That can also be my counter-argument.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.
LARS ULRICH: People sit there and go, ``It's about-- It's about greed for Metallica.'' But it's also a reversible greed because you're just as greedy 'cause you don't want to pay $16 for a CD. That's the marketplace.
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, good point.
Let me finish this point, though.
LARS ULRICH: Right.
CHARLIE ROSE: The other point is that--
You don't-- You think this principle is so important that, if there's some fans out there that are gonna be alienated because you're out front, leading the fight, you're saying ``good-bye.''
LARS ULRICH: Bye-bye.
CHARLIE ROSE: ``We got enough fans.''
LARS ULRICH: We don't have enough--
CHARLIE ROSE: We can spare a few who get--
LARS ULRICH: No, it's not even that, Charlie. It's, if you don't have enough respect for the fact that I believe this way and that I have a right to challenge it and try and right it for what's right for me, I don't want you as a fan.
CHUCK D: Well, I think--
CHARLIE ROSE: There you go.
CHUCK D: I think-- I think there's artists -- whether they're in Oslo or whether they're in the middle of the United States who can't get signed or probably couldn't get signed because of the limitations of the music business.
This actually expands that whole paradigm. And I just think that they will thrive off the new system as opposed to trying to beg on the old system.
LARS ULRICH: And I'm not saying that they can't thrive on it. I'm saying that there's gotta be a way to make people who do want to retain the control of their copyrighted material happy and in the same way.
CHUCK D: There's a couple ways that's being developed--
LARS ULRICH: And in the same way make Napster available to the people who want to use it.
CHUCK D: There's a couple ways that's being developed right now--
LARS ULRICH: Absolutely.
CHUCK D: And I'm working with people in Silicon Valley on a-- on a way to work with MP3s to make it free for the public and then retraceable back to the artist having control and money.
But the thing about it. The company actually being the--
CHARLIE ROSE: If it's free, then-- Wait a minute. It's free to the public and it's traceable back--
CHUCK D: Back and they actually make revenue--
CHARLIE ROSE: And they have control?
CHUCK D: Makes revenue for the artist. And then whatever team--
CHARLIE ROSE: Who pays the revenue to the artist then. I don't get this.
CHUCK D: Well, this company exists out there. And they're working on it now.
LARS ULRICH: Right, but you cannot look me in the eye and tell me that they are not doing it for some kind of profit.
CHUCK D: They're doing it because they could be technical nerds or just love to see change every second. You got cats out there-- The kid that got involved with Napster. You think he had--
CHARLIE ROSE: Lars is not buying it.
LARS ULRICH: You know what? I respect you, man, but--
CHARLIE ROSE: Lars is not buying into this.
LARS ULRICH: I respect you, but -- you know -- in the United States nobody does anything for free, man.
CHUCK D: Lars, you got people out there that will buy your album even if they-- after they download it. Why do you think Blockbuster's a big industry when people could tape off of HBO, Cinemax or Showtime?
LARS ULRICH: I'm not-- I know-- I--
CHUCK D: They kill to go get it.
LARS ULRICH: I've talked to people who are sitting there going, ``I downloaded one of your songs from Napster. I went out and bought the record.''
Wonderful. God bless you. But does that mean that I can't still go after Napster?
CHUCK D: Oh, no. No, nobody said you can't.
LARS ULRICH: I think it's a wonderful thing.
I just think it's ignorant to sit there and say that just because you take it away from the record business and the record companies and you hand it over to all these other people that make it available in a different way that there is not gonna be the same profiteering from that.
That is ignorant.
CHUCK D: Same thing--
I mean, you're not crying about the radio industry making their money. The radio industry actually--
LARS ULRICH: But I'm not crying about the music business making money--
CHUCK D: The industry--
LARS ULRICH: --on it because they invested in me. Fred Durst sits there and say, you know, ``I, you know, believe that Napster is a great company. And, you know, we want to go against what the record companies are doing.''
Who paid for your [unintelligible]? Who spent $600,000 so you could have a video on MTV that made you sell $8 million? You didn't pay for it yourself.
CHUCK D: If Fred Durst died tomorrow, there'd be somebody else there. So, I'm not saying the record companies are bad guys. They're just doing whatever--
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
CHUCK D: You know, this is a breed of artistry in the artists' graveyard to actually feel sorry for those cats.
CHARLIE ROSE: All right.
Let me conclude with this. Give me a solution to this.
LARS ULRICH: I'm not sure that I have one right now in a sound bite. I think ultimately by the time we get around to making our next original album that we will have looked at the possibilities and potential solutions enough to start on the next new album with making the new record or portions of the new record available in some format to people on our conditions and our terms.
We're looking at that right now. If all this wasn't taking up so much of our time and energy right now, we could concentrate on that and we--
CHARLIE ROSE: You'd be writing songs or thinking about the future?
LARS ULRICH: And we will be.
It's all about balance. We'll get there.
CHARLIE ROSE: So, let me just say right I'm thankful you came here so we could at least--
LARS ULRICH: Thank you.
CHARLIE ROSE: --get this conversation going.
Last word to you. You got a solution to this? Other than full steam ahead for free access.
CHUCK D: Well, it's a parallel world and a new paradigm taking place. We have to adapt to it. And, you know, like this-- Like I said, this talk goes beyond Chuck and Lars.
LARS ULRICH: Absolutely.
CHUCK D: This is industry versus the people. The people, you know, have got it on their side. And we have to adapt.
CHARLIE ROSE: Do you think of yourself--
LARS ULRICH: I think that when say ``industry versus the people,'' you have to put in a third component. You have to talk about the service providers. They are an equal component in this game.
It's not must the musicians and the fans and the record companies. The service-- the potential service providers knocking on the doors with all their new technology are as big a part of this game.
CHUCK D: And the record companies would love to control them, just like they would love to control radio and TV. But--
CHARLIE ROSE: Are you more of an entrepreneur or an artist?
CHUCK D: I'd like-- I'm part Jamaican. I got nine jobs. So, I could be anything at any given day. But I do tell you that I thrive off the enthusiasm of the people.
I think the power goes to the people -- bottom line. I have a global point of view at things. And I just-- I don't have that-- I don't have that typical American entrepreneur's spirit. That would probably, you know, land me in a nest egg or so on.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you both.
Thank you, Chuck D.
Thank you, Lars.
Pleasure.
CHUCK D: Thank you, Lars.
CHARLIE ROSE: May be able to solve this thing here if we could get the Napster people in.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
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