{"article":{"id":178626,"heading":"Chomsky Fears 9\/11 Debate","author":"Fool me once\u2026","created":"2006-09-15 23:51:22","modified":"2026-10-25 17:02:53","last_modified":"Mon, 26 Oct 2026 01:02:53","article":"

It's all fine and good that Mr. Chomsky confronts Israel for its phony justification for mass murder in Lebanon [ http:\/\/portland.indymedia.org\/en\/2006\/09\/345826.shtml<\/a> ]-- an obvious attempt by him to regain the trust of the anti-war movement, which is finally embracing the 9\/11 Truth movement -- but let us *NEVER FORGET* where he stands on the most important issue of our time: the state-terror apparatus that is plunging the world into a totalitarian fascist nightmare.

When questioned on Dr. Hesham Tillawi's online video program about his stance on the 9\/11 issue, Chomsky timidly regurgitates the official line by saying that the version we are force-fed by the mainstream media is \"pretty much what happened\", with 19 Arab hijackers responsible for the planning and execution of the attacks. He claims that he hasn't seen any \"credible evidence\" to suggest otherwise.

[ http:\/\/video.google.com\/videoplay?docid=5515995256268661504<\/a> ]

At this point in the interview, the informed viewer and reader of his work will ask: \"Where has Chomsky been for the last five years? Has he not heard of the work of Scholars for 9\/11 Truth, particularly the work of engineer Dr. Judy Wood, physicist Dr. Stephen Jones, philosopher Dr. James Fetzer and theologian Dr. David Griffin? Has he not read about Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's appeal to the world for an investigation into 9\/11?\"

CHOMSKY’S LACK OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT HIS 9\/11 POSITION

How is it possible that he hasn’t “seen any credible evidence” when the Scholars” work has been posted all over the internet and has even made the corporate press because of the controversy it is spawning? Is it not arrogance on his part to dismiss these academics as \"lacking credibility\"? Where is Chomsky's evidence for this dismissal of his colleagues' work?

Instead he cites an imaginary and illusory body of \"thousands of highly qualified engineers\" with the \"appropriate credentials\" that can apparently prove how the official collapse model is scientifically sound. Who are these engineers? Why won’t they, along with the NIST engineers, debate the peer-reviewed science put forth by the Scholars? This group of brave scientists and intellectuals not only possess \"appropriate credentials\" and backgrounds, but, together, have systematically dismantled the FEMA, NIST and 9\/11 Commission cover-up reports. Is it not revealing that these government \"scientists\" collectively refuse to publicly debate Scholars for 9\/11 Truth!!!

[ http:\/\/www.teamliberty.net\/id273.html<\/a> ]

So where does Chomsky position himself within this debate? Why is he openly accusing the 9\/11 truth movement of \"wasting an enormous amount of time and energy\", that \"could be better focused on more important issues\"? What issues are more important than the events that have led us into an era of \"permanent war\"? Why is he ignoring the world public's call for an international and independent public inquiry?

NECESSARY QUESTIONS ON UNNECESSARY ILLUSIONS

In light of all this, we are forced to ask some very unpleasant questions with regards to Chomsky's political and moral agenda, as well as his ideological allegiances. Does he know something about the Israeli connection to terrorism and 9\/11 and is he afraid to make it public? (Do recall Sharon's explicit declaration on October 3rd, 2001, that \"We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it.\" [IAP News])

Is Chomsky an ideological supporter of Zionism, as claimed by Dr. Norman G. Finkelstein, author of The Holocaust Industry, in an interview given to Snowshoe Films? [ Watch \"Straussians, My Behind\" http:\/\/www.snowshoefilms.com\/palestine.html<\/a> ] If he is an ideological Zionist, then is he covering up the Israeli power-elite's involvement in international terrorism? Isn't it interesting, if not telling, that he avoids all discussion of the Federal Reserve and its Zionist control when he discusses economic power in America? Is this not lying-by-omission, something that he exposes with regard to the corporate media in his book, \"Manufacturing Consent\"?

Is his stance with regard to 9\/11 and \"terrorism\" not an indirect means of \"manufacturing consent\" for the \"War on Terror\"? If so, Chomsky is complicit in the very power system and war machine that he has always condemned. Is it not significant that he has remained employed, despite his dissident activities, by one of the largest weapons developers in the United States, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), where he began working directly under the U.S. Army during the 1950s. [ http:\/\/www.questionsquestions.net\/docs0209\/0920_response.html<\/a> ]

This leads us to this crucial question: is Chomsky's 9\/11 position a result of his fear of power, do they have 'dirt' on him, or has he always been a high-level agent of state-propaganda working only within the acceptable confines of a specific, yet ambiguous ideological framework?



http:\/\/www.scholarsfor911truth.org<\/a>

\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"When questioned about his stance on the 9\/11 issue, Chomsky timidly regurgitates the official line by saying that the version we are force-fed by the mainstream media is "pretty much what happened. He claims that he hasn't seen any "credible evidence" to suggest otherwise. ","numcomment":312,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2006\/09\/178626.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":178652,"heading":"http:\/\/www.st911.org\/","article":"Trying to paint Chomsky as a fervent enemy of Zionism maybe we should give thanks for the regurgitation of Zionism, replete with the usual pile of unsubstantiated but highly vitriolic noise from that special kennel of barking Israeliphiles like David Horowitz and Jacob Laksin. Someone toss them some raw meat please just to engage their mouths and shut them up.\r\n\r\nAnd about the spew about Scholars for 9\/11 truth...see for yourself.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.st911.org\/\r\n","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-16 11:53:46","modified":"2006-09-16 11:53:46","fileurl":""},{"id":178658,"heading":"Yes, absolutely, see for yourself","article":"http:\/\/www.scholarsfor911truth.org\/WhoAreWe.html","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-16 14:27:21","modified":"2006-09-16 14:27:21","fileurl":""},{"id":178662,"heading":"forging and BECKY","article":"I think we should just report any post by BECKY as hate\/insult and ignore her as the dupe and agent of Zionism that she has proven herself to be.\r\nThis forum should not be a place for her racism or a soapbox for her propaganda.\r\n","author":"Love those report buttons.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-16 14:46:58","modified":"2006-09-16 14:46:58","fileurl":""},{"id":178964,"heading":"Comical","article":"Jeez, with allies like that, does the 911 truth movement need enemies. That article practically said 911 was a conspiracy by Jew bankers.\r\n\r\nWhat little I've read of the 911 truth stuff is very speculative and not particularly scientific, especially Loose Change. A few too many far-out claims and it all starts looking pretty shaky. The assertions would be more believable if they were backed up by experiments (likewise, the refutations would be more credible with experiments).\r\n\r\nAlso, they ignore some things. For example, I noticed that in discussing the burning jet fuel theory, they ignored the burning temperature of carpet. (They refute that jet fuel weakened the steel beams. I think they made a good case.) Wet carpet can burn at 1010F, according to an EPA experiment.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.epa.gov\/nhsrc\/pubs\/reportDioxinFuran050905.pdf\r\n\r\nThe buildings were full of plastics and paper. Carpet is mostly nylon, a plastic, backed with something like jute.\r\n\r\nThey didn't explore the possiblity of the formation of charcoal within the buildings due to the initial burning. Wood, even paper, forms charcoal if it burns for a while deprived of oxygen. Charcoal burns hot enough to melt steel, and it was the way steel used to be created.\r\n\r\nTraditionally, it took days to make charcoal, but nowadays, people make it in small quantities in an hour or so. Also, the process of burning wood creates charcoal within it.\r\n\r\n911 truth researchers should be exploring this avenue, and seeing if they can refute a possibility like that. Can a box of paper become charcoal from the fuel of burning carpet and computer cases?\r\n\r\nAnother thing I didn't see discussed was about the security around the twin towers. A guy who worked there said they had tight air security in the late 70s. Well, today isn't the late 70s, when there was a Cold War going on. Back then, NYC airspace was highly guarded because, well, because it was just how things were done. Maybe by the late 90s, things were different.\r\n\r\nI'm not a 911 truth debunker, but holes like that don't help the cause. I didn't even try to find these holes. I read the st911 site for like, 20 minutes, and there they were. I haven't even read the debunker sites, save the refutation by popular mechanics, which was shallow in itself. (They totally ignored the good arguments.)\r\n\r\nChomsky is important because so many listen to him, but he's only saying what a lot of people in the anti-war movement think.\r\n\r\nYou can even explain his biases pretty easily, and they're not really related to his employmet at MIT. He seems a little different from the 9\/11 truth folks in these ways.\r\n\r\nHe's not that nationalistic. The 911ers are, and tend to have ideas of how this was a big betrayal.\r\n\r\nHe's interested in how the system operates, and how events fit in. When you think like that, these big events seem smaller.\r\n\r\nHe tends to hew closely to facts. For sources, at least for his lectures, he tends to stick to the major papers with fact-checkers. He's biased against speculation. Maybe it's the MIT environment that does that.\r\n\r\nBeing of Jewish heritage, he might be more exposed to news about terrorists. Just being informed of terrorism will tend to make one think it's more feasible.\r\n\r\nThe general left perspective on 911 is this: it's blowback from years of supporting Osama Bin Laden, various dictators in the Middle East, and so forth. Anarchists in particular have a blase attitude about it. Moreover, the anarchists are always going to try to comprehend the underdog, if not identify with the underdog. I suspect most think that terrorism is inevitable in a situation where there's a great imbalance of military power. (For that matter, I suspect most right-wingers and military people think that.)\r\n\r\nAlso, look at how quickly policy shifted from an actual search for a terrorist, to a "war on terrorism", and then to a war that isn't really even against terrorism. It's not even a war for oil. It's a war for empire.\r\n\r\nThese wars aren't a response to 9\/11, but the expression of a pent-up desire to expand the empire. Perhaps 911 was Bush's "Reichschtag Fire," as people say. Even if it was, the larger problem, an expanding empire, must still be addressed, because that is killing more people, and will create the conditions that kill, than OBL or whomever did it, ever did.","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-18 23:25:09","modified":"2006-09-18 23:25:09","fileurl":""},{"id":178975,"heading":"Well said johnk","article":"We already know the neo-cons, the Rebublicans and the Democrats are more than willing to kill innocent people to achieve their ends. Proving that they did 9-11 would prove the obvious - that they are killers of innocent people. But any thinking, rational person already knows that. \r\n\r\nAs the true internationalist that you are, your "dissertation" here highlights why the "true left" (joke, maybe?) isn't concerned as much with 9-11 truth as they are with ending the expansion of empire since it kills and creates the conditions that kill innocent people - and way more non-Americans than Americans.\r\n\r\nThe ruling class has been "betraying" us for a long, long time.","author":"Pete Nice","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-19 01:36:57","modified":"2006-09-19 01:36:57","fileurl":""},{"id":178977,"heading":"Also appreciative, Johnk","article":"The 911 truth movement has self-destructed from a serious forensic viewpoint\r\n\r\nMy previous input in this thread:\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/hidden.php?id=178626#178646","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-19 01:57:30","modified":"2006-09-19 01:57:30","fileurl":""},{"id":178981,"heading":"Read TW's dealy","article":"It's kind of insulting, but, there's stuff in there. (I think if you weren't so insulting, it wouldn't get flagged.)\r\n\r\nI don't feel quite so vehement about it. There are millions of people out there, and thousands into this 911 conspiracy thing. If they're into it, they should run with it. There's room enough for everyone to do whatever, but, to think it's the mind-bomb that's going to liberate the people is kind of hard to swallow. At best, it's going to be the bait that gets people to really look into how the world works.\r\n\r\nAt worst, it's going to turn into a lot of very detailed research that makes people afraid, or gives frightened people a reason for their anxiety. Either, or.\r\n\r\nA lot of people already suspect the government of dirty tricks around 911. Deductive logic prods us to explore the issue in greater depth. Even with facts, many are so anecdotal as to be refutable or deniable.\r\n\r\nTry some inductive logic, go from the specific to the general. People already see the parallels with the Reichschtag Fire. Catalog the similar situations. Pearl Harbor - how much did we know? Did Japan lie to its own people to drive them to war? Did Italy? Did the dominoes tumble in Southeast Asia? What about the history of Great Britain?","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-19 04:12:54","modified":"2006-09-19 04:12:54","fileurl":""},{"id":178997,"heading":"thinking about things again","article":""These wars aren't a response to 9\/11"\r\nWho really believes this? This is the main stream cheerleader's chant in legitimizing this debacle in the minds of the American population.\r\nWe can, of course dissemble the observable evidence and arrive at plausible solutions to provide explanations, and therefore present favorable hypotheses. Do the proposed models explain observed data?\r\nThe point I'm making is that trashing any particular model as, excuse the quote, johnk. -\r\n\r\nWhat little I've read of the 911 truth stuff is very speculative and not particularly scientific, especially Loose Change. A few too many far-out claims and it all starts looking pretty shaky. The assertions would be more believable if they were backed up by experiments (likewise, the refutations would be more credible with experiments). \r\n\r\nAlso, they ignore some things. For example, I noticed that in discussing the burning jet fuel theory, they ignored the burning temperature of carpet. (They refute that jet fuel weakened the steel beams. I think they made a good case.) Wet carpet can burn at 1010F, according to an EPA experiment. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.epa.gov\/nhsrc\/pubs\/reportDioxinFuran050905.pdf \r\n\r\nThe buildings were full of plastics and paper. Carpet is mostly nylon, a plastic, backed with something like jute.-\r\n--------\r\n\r\njohnk, this potential fuel would require a huge amount of airflow in an ideal furnace type of reaction, Nylon initially breaks down to cyanide compounds \r\nwhich were observed as black smoke and people jumping to their death to escape the poisonous by products of this low temperature reaction. \r\n\r\nAnyone can find frivolous irregularities and use them as a strawman when the basis premiss is, through observable evidence that the WTC 1,2 & 7 were brought down with demolition technology. And if brought to the light of public acceptance the resulting catharsis could provide the awakening.\r\nYou admitted to not having examined this extremely naked and exposed outrage of murder and treason in detail.\r\n\r\n \r\n","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-19 13:07:30","modified":"2006-09-19 13:07:30","fileurl":""},{"id":179078,"heading":"Awakening?","article":""And if brought to the light of public acceptance the resulting catharsis could provide the awakening. "\r\n\r\nWhat kind of awakening? Will people see that the ruling-class is willing to kill to justify empire expansion? Doesn't everybody already know that? \r\n\r\nWhy don't we focus on educating people about the true nature of imperialism and empire, while pointing out how many hundreds of thousands die as a result around the world and live in poverty here because of $$ spent and hope that causes an awakening?\r\n\r\nBesides, the official media released video of the Pentagon exploding after being hit by something, and even though no jet was seen in the video, they said it showed a jet hitting the Pentagon, and people believed it. \r\n\r\nThere a'int gonna be no awakening. ","author":"Pete Nice","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-19 18:47:16","modified":"2006-09-19 18:47:16","fileurl":""},{"id":179114,"heading":"the media","article":"I don't know anybody that saw the pentagon 'revealed' video thought it was anything but more smoke blown up our collective ass.\r\nAnd the awakening is already happening and willtake furious growth if another outrage happens in the form of another attack.","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 00:09:12","modified":"2006-09-20 00:09:12","fileurl":""},{"id":179115,"heading":"To oK","article":"oK said: "johnk, this potential fuel would require a huge amount of airflow in an ideal furnace type of reaction..." \r\n\r\nI think Johnk's point is that there are whole alternate universes of variables being left out by the 9-11 "we know ALL the truth" crowd, which has a very layman-like way of reducing a fantastically complex scenario to "1+1=2" \r\n\r\n"...the basis premiss is, through observable evidence that the WTC 1,2 & 7 were brought down with demolition technology." \r\n\r\nI'm glad you brought up controlled demolition, because that is the exact bug I have up my arse\r\n\r\n"[Johnk] admitted to not having examined this extremely naked and exposed outrage of murder and treason in detail." \r\n\r\nHE may not have, but *I* have, and what's more I've completed coursework in structural design in one of the country's best civil engineering schools. I excelled at it.\r\n\r\nThe whole 'controlled demolition' crock of shit begins with the argument that "the fires could not possibly have melted the steel, so they couldn't have caused the collapse." \r\n\r\nUm, the fires didn't HAVE TO melt the steel to cause the collapse\r\n\r\nSteel can fail by deformation without melting. Grab a table fork with both hands and you can bend it right over. This unrecovering deformation is called 'yielding.' How much stress per square inch of section a steel can absorb before yielding is called its 'yield strength.' Yield strength, NOT melting point, is the key to the collapse of the towers (and to structural design parameters in general). The yield strength of structural steels is extremely high at mundane temperatures, but declines in a roughly linear manner as the steel is heated. By 'roughly linear,' I mean that whatever percentage the steel is heated toward its melting point from room temperature, this is approximately how much its yield strength declines from the room temperature value. \r\n\r\nSteel building frames are NOT "fantastically strong." They are surprisingly fragile. This is what engineering is all about: getting the structure EXACTLY as strong as it needs to be, no stronger. Steel sections in most structures are calculated to support foreseeable loads plus a 25% "safety factor." Therefore the steel of a building only has to be weakened by 20% for structural collapse to become imminent. Therefore -- per "roughly linear" -- it only has to be heated 20% of the way between room temperature and melting point for collapse to become imminent. This would happen in the mid-hundreds of degrees centigrade. \r\n\r\nThis is why conventional steel-frame construction calls for FIRE-CLADDING around all structural members, usually in the form of poured concrete. This IS NOT for strength. It actually decreases the structural efficiency of the steel frame and thus limits the design. What the concrete does is sop up heat so the frame doesn't fail in the event of a bad fire. \r\n\r\nAll of the above falls into "Structural Engineering 101." \r\n\r\nDon't take my word for shit. Every town of any size has a structural engineer for hire. Print out the above and put it in front of the engineer in YOUR hometown and ask him if it's true. \r\n\r\nSee, you controlled demolition dipshits can't even muster a "Structural Engineering 101" level of understanding, and yet you presume to know "absotively posilutely" that the towers were blown up. I'm sorry, but you know exactly two things: jack and shit. I'm no SE expert, but I know enough to know what I DON'T know, which is about a thousand times more than you do. \r\n\r\nGriffin and Fetzer are just professional bullshit artists. This is the straightforward meaning of their credentials. Stephen Jones, on the other hand, SHOULD have a handle on the kind of theory I've ONLY TOUCHED ON, but Jones seems to have some sort of fucking mental disease that makes him want to be a rock star or something. From a technical viewpoint, everything this man says stinks of bullshit to high heaven. He gets it over on you people because you're simply ignorant and you TRUST HIM because he has a gee-whiz Albert Einstein Pee Aitch Dee (**BIG** mistake). \r\n\r\nHere are videos of the north and south tower collapses. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.911research.com\/wtc\/evidence\/videos\/docs\/south_tower_collapse.mpeg\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.911research.com\/wtc\/evidence\/videos\/docs\/north_tower_collapse.mpeg\r\n\r\nIn both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance? \r\n\r\n\r\nI repeat: I AM A 9-11 SKEPTIC. I AGREE that George 'Adolph' Bush and his little club of reptiles are the real culprits here. The *circumstantial* case for this is extremely persuasive. \r\n\r\nThe mistake you have made is in allowing the movement's *POLITICAL* leadership to convince you that "oh Gwod, we have to have a SMOKING GUN!!!" You know, If you REALLY DO have a smoking gun, then fine, but if you're just going to pull a "smoking gun" out of your ass, then FUCK YOU! You're as bad as the people you're opposing. \r\n\r\nThe really disgusting part is I don't think you could tell the difference if I was holding an M-60 to your heads. You're AMERICANS. You been raised by teevee sets. You don't know what the word "reality" means\r\n\r\nThe controlled demolition argument is a TROJAN HORSE. It is making you look like a bunch of blithering imbeciles in front of the assembled technical experts of the world, who might otherwise might help you obtain what Jones is only PRETENDING to give you: a definitive smoking gun\r\n\r\nYou have been HAD\r\n\r\nI ain't the only one trying to warn you\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.oilempire.us\/demolition.html","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 00:17:21","modified":"2006-09-20 00:17:21","fileurl":""},{"id":179121,"heading":"really?","article":"I've seen this from other posters about their lofty knowledge about structural engineering and it always comes to the point of saying 'look I have my experts who say this' and refers to another elaborate and intricate display of double talk in the guise of 'informed analysis'.\r\n\r\n"The whole 'controlled demolition' crock of shit begins with the argument that "the fires could not possibly have melted the steel, so they couldn't have caused the collapse."\r\n\r\nAre you going to support the pancake explanation? There was a poster named Sky King who tried this and ended up looking like another \r\npayroll keyboard government jockey over at SF IMC.\r\nFollowing in his footsteps?\r\n ","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 00:36:49","modified":"2006-09-20 00:36:49","fileurl":""},{"id":179151,"heading":"Nope","article":"I don't buy the "pancake" explanation, and I'm mystified at the way government "experts" have thrown themselves behind it. I suspect this too was a POLITICAL decision.\r\n\r\nIf you open the video links I provided, you'll see that what's unambiguously happening is this: the uppermost 25 to 40 floors of both buildings break loose in one piece and become uncoupled multi-million-ton masses plunging into the structure below them. THIS is what truly destroyed the buildings, and it was impossible for them to do otherwise. The proper place of the "pancake" discussion might be in explaining why these upper-story blocks broke loose in the first place, but even here I think it's only one of several possibilities, and that any such mechanism is destined to forever remain hypothetical -- short of physically recreating the incident with lots of instruments all over the place. \r\n\r\nBy "pancake explanation," I assume you mean "one floor collapsed onto the next, which was then overloaded and collapsed in turn, causing a chain reaction that cascaded down through the building." No, I don't buy it. The videos themselves show very clearly that what really happened was much more cataclysmic. It's as if the biggest building in a mid-size US city were levitated over a given tower and dropped on it. There is no way the towers could survive this. I'll agree that PARTIAL collapses of the floors in the impact zone MAY have contributed to the initiation of this true collapse sequence. \r\n\r\nSpeaking of questions, oK, I asked you one and you ignored it: \r\n\r\n"In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 11:49:04","modified":"2006-09-20 11:49:04","fileurl":""},{"id":179152,"heading":"yup","article":""Speaking of questions, oK, I asked you one and you ignored it: \r\n\r\n"In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" "\r\n\r\n\r\nYou want to know about programed sequencing? Motion sensor feedback in case of lateral anomalies that operate on a sophisticated algorithm to provide uniform subsidence insuring debris deposition into its own foot print?\r\n\r\nWhy don't you ask Controlled Demolitions Inc. I'm sure they could answer all your questions.","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 12:01:48","modified":"2006-09-20 12:01:48","fileurl":""},{"id":179157,"heading":""Doesn't everybody already know that?"","article":"No, everybody does *not* already know that. Just becasue you do, doesn't mean everybody does. You're projecting. ","author":"projection","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 13:00:32","modified":"2006-09-20 13:00:32","fileurl":""},{"id":179162,"heading":"Denial","article":"People might be in denial but they're not stupid.","author":"Pete Nice","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 14:42:46","modified":"2006-09-20 14:42:46","fileurl":""},{"id":179164,"heading":"related threads","article":"these are interesting discussions.\r\nBYU Prof's WTC Demolition Theories on MSNBC's Tucker Carlson - 9\/11 Truth Hits Mainstream \r\nhttp:\/\/sf.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/11\/1722079.php\r\n Exactly How and When Could the WTC Be Wired With Explosives? Answer...\r\nhttp:\/\/sf.indymedia.org\/news\/2004\/04\/1691636.php\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 14:47:46","modified":"2006-09-20 14:47:46","fileurl":""},{"id":179202,"heading":"Okay, oK","article":"Since you evaded the question again, I'll answer it myself\r\n\r\nQ: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" \r\n\r\nA: It means that the demolitions teams had to have rigged only a few adjacent floors with charges -- the floors that initiated the collapse -- and that a given plane then had to fly into exactly that level. However improbable this sounds, you have to take this improbability and MULTIPLY IT BY ITSELF, since the stunt was successfully pulled off TWICE, once for each building. \r\n\r\nThere is of course the competing hypothesis: that the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves. \r\n\r\nI know which explanation Sir William of Occam would choose: the second \r\n\r\nIf the whole controlled demolition controversy had been framed this way right from the beginning, you'd probably have chosen the second also. Most anybody would. But instead it was presented through a bunch of semantic bullshit games about "pancaking," etc. Now you're in a position where you have to back up and HONESTLY reconsider your position based on new information, but you're not gonna fuckin do it because you've made this huge ideological\/attitude commitment and you'd feel like a jerk-off, plus it would incur too much POLITICAL damage. \r\n\r\nYour movement isn't "9-11 TRUTH" any more. \r\n\r\nYou need to rename it "9-11 POLITICS."\r\n\r\nThis is where you end up joining the Republisluts and Democrahoors in their orgy of ignominy\r\n\r\nThanks for bringing up the Chris Tucker interview. When I said that everything Jones says stinks of bullshit, this 'molten metal' canard is one of the things I had in mind\r\n\r\nThe molten steel in the basements is NOT "direct evidence for the use of high-temperature explosives," because it's obviously related to the fantastic quantity of heat energy that built up inside the piles of rubble after collapse, a quantity FAR FAR FAR in excess, calorically, of what can be attributed to explosives sufficient to cause the collapses. Yes, even to thermite. \r\n\r\nThis heat is a bizarre anomaly that stands off as its own thing. I have my own hypothesis as to why it happened, but that would be a digression\r\n\r\nAgain, Jones is certainly capable of figuring this out himself, but Jones isn't dealing in TRUTH, he's playing POLITICS. Those are polar opposites","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 19:33:07","modified":"2006-09-20 19:33:07","fileurl":""},{"id":179212,"heading":"no evasion","article":"I said talk to Controlled Demolition Inc. And explosive sequencing is a well developed technology which was initiated in the mining industry.\r\n So tell me since you don't have a hypothesis why you have such a vitriolic reaction to one who does.\r\nAnd such language. I would expect that from our Zionist posters.","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-20 20:19:31","modified":"2006-09-20 20:19:31","fileurl":""},{"id":179236,"heading":"I don't have a hypothesis about WHAT????","article":"About why the towers fell? Yeah I do. I said it right here: \r\n\r\n"the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves." \r\n\r\nYeah, that's right: the planes did it\r\n\r\nYou're just so emotionally committed to the dogma that this is impossible, even though you don't actually KNOW this, that you can't even notice that's what I said\r\n\r\nAnother thing your crowd has missed in its blind haste to trot along after Griffin, Jones, et al, is that the towers DIDN'T HAVE TO COLLAPSE in order for the 9-11 black op to have the desired psychological impact. I remember that morning vividly. Don't you? When the second plane slammed into the second tower, people everywhere in this country were LOSING. THEIR FUCKING. MINDS. That was it, man; the spooks were slapping each other's backs and heading home. They had their "Pearl Harbor" wrapped up and delivered right there. The collapse was an unanticipated psy-war bonus.\r\n\r\nWhy would they take a huge PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY risk by sending teams of technicians into two of the most intensely secured buildings in the country to place explosives WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN NEED TO to satisfy their psy-op objectives??? That would be just stupid!\r\n\r\nWhy I'm vitriolic: like I told gehrig not long ago, I hate liars. Refusing to THINK honestly about a thing is the sort of lying I hate most, and that's what the controlled demolition crowd is doing. I've spelled out why. They're not really interested in truth as an ideal; it's politics they're chasing now. Those are different animals altogether","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 02:14:09","modified":"2006-09-21 02:14:09","fileurl":""},{"id":179237,"heading":"Whole bunch of","article":"Yup. The mindless retort "oh, the Zionists did it" that dominate these threads is as much as an obstacle to critical thinking as anything else. ","author":"refusing to think going on","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 02:21:06","modified":"2006-09-21 02:21:06","fileurl":""},{"id":179240,"heading":"'the Zionists did it"","article":"My list of suspects is as it should be: wide open\r\n\r\nIsrael and its global spook network had more motive than anybody\r\n\r\nSome of their spooks were even apprehended while filming the event and having themselves a little party, they were so deliriously happy \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sundayherald.com\/37707\r\n\r\nIncluding Israel and zionists among the suspects isn't "mindless" at all. It's just good criminology, especially since they made up half the Bush administration at the time","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 02:44:42","modified":"2006-09-21 02:44:42","fileurl":""},{"id":179241,"heading":"Bin laden confessed","article":"If Al Jizzera thought it was a forgery, why would they broadcast it? Are they in on it too?\r\n\r\nBin Laden got rid of his airline stocks weeks before the event.\r\nCould Bin laden have been working along with Bush? Bin Laden's family were the only ones allowed to fly out of America on Sept. 11, according to Michael Moore's movie","author":"Al Jizzera broadcast the confession","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 02:50:26","modified":"2006-09-21 02:50:26","fileurl":""},{"id":179244,"heading":"You mean the confession video with this guy, Tia?","article":"The moon-faced, jolly Santa "bin Laden," seen on the left?\r\n\r\nSorry, not buying. You'll just have to keep hitting me with more TV psy-ops. My brain isn't jell-O-ized enough yet","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-21 03:09:26","modified":"2006-09-21 03:09:26","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/fake_osama_comparison.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/fake_osama_comparison.jpg"}},{"id":179251,"heading":"Thats evidence?","article":"Firstly, there is a marked resemblence, even with the poor photo quality.\r\n\r\nSecondly, life on the run, living exposed to the elements will change your skin tone. . Renal failure will do that as well. i'm sure he's not eating as well in Pakistan as he was accustomed to. \r\n\r\nPlus, its been 5 years. Look at what the last 5 years have done to you- a bit less on the top, a bit more around the middle. And that knees been acting up again. \r\nYep. the aging process sucks, doesn't it?","author":"you are worse off than I thought","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 03:30:15","modified":"2006-09-21 03:30:15","fileurl":""},{"id":179253,"heading":"Nice try, Izzy-bullshitter","article":"The bone structure in the two faces is wildly different. This doesn't change.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 03:36:01","modified":"2006-09-21 03:36:01","fileurl":""},{"id":179266,"heading":"'the planes did it'","article":"\r\nDespite visual evidence.\r\nDespite the eye witnesses of internal explosions.\r\n\r\nDespite the background noise.","author":"conformation","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 08:09:09","modified":"2006-09-21 08:09:09","fileurl":""},{"id":179354,"heading":"Please elucidate","article":""Despite visual evidence." \r\n\r\nToo vague; I have no idea what you mean\r\n\r\n"Despite the eye witnesses of internal explosions." \r\n\r\nDid they SEE explosions, or did they hear deafening explosion-like noises?\r\n\r\n"Despite the background noise."\r\n\r\nAgain, this is too vague. You didn't even learn anything from 12 years of English classes, but you want me to believe you're a world-class forensic talent","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-21 22:33:24","modified":"2006-09-21 22:33:24","fileurl":""},{"id":179395,"heading":"Returning to an earlier subject","article":"Pete Nice: "There a'int gonna be no awakening." \r\n\r\nI have to agree. If the Civil War couldn't succeed in convincing average Americans that this government is their heartless mortal enemy, then NOTHING can. \r\n\r\nAmericans, despite all their cocky "Land of the Free\u2122" posturing, pretty much think and do exactly as authority tells them to. Otherwise they'd have to THINK. Fuck that!","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-22 17:28:46","modified":"2013-11-11 00:44:25","fileurl":""},{"id":179397,"heading":"Multiple Osamas","article":"Sadaam had body doubles. Osama may have as well.","author":"another option","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-22 17:42:20","modified":"2006-09-22 17:42:20","fileurl":""},{"id":179401,"heading":"Returning to an earlier subject","article":"If ' the planes did it' what accounts for the molten steel?","author":"9 - 11","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-22 18:14:13","modified":"2006-09-22 18:14:13","fileurl":""},{"id":179437,"heading":"Warning to the world: Americans' habitual lying is chewing holes in their brains. RUN!!","article":"1) What was most likely burning aluminum was seen falling out of a broken window before the collapse. Stephen Jones and Alex Jones both insist this burning material was thermite (or thermate), but they're both pathological fucking liars. Clue for 9-11 bullshitters: insisting you know something like this for sure when there's no way you can is a kind of lie. No, really!\r\n\r\nAluminum was used extensively in the facade. How much it was used in the interior I don't know. In any case, it is possible that significant amounts of aluminum got churned into the tower rubble, some of it already burning as it was buried. Burning aluminum is fascinating stuff. It attains a temperature of over 3800 degrees C and is well-nigh impossible to extinguish. Throwing water on it naturally produces steam, which to an aluminum fire is just another oxidizer like air.\r\n\r\n2) firemen were hosing the rubble down with high-volume hoses night and day. IF there were pre-existing aluminum fires inside the piles, and lots of aluminum churned into the rubble to serve as additional fuel, it's possible that the thousands and thousands of gallons of water expended this way actually served as an ACCELERANT\r\n\r\n3) Heat would not escape well from inside a gigantic pile of rubble. The best common sense analogy is to a compost pile, which due to this insulative effect can become amazingly hot. The heat from any heat source inside the tower rubble would not dissipate, but would accumulate almost without limit. This too would encourage rampant aluminum combustion (at over 3800 degrees C... )\r\n\r\nAll of this adds up to a possible scenario in which hot-spots inside the pile might develop blast-furnace temperatures\r\n\r\nThis is only a hypothesis. Observe carefully how I don't insist I have the perfect crystal-ball answer. This is called I-N-T-E-L-L-E-C-T-U-A-L H-O-N-E-S-T-Y. Yes, very weird, I know. Some American shrink is certain to add it to the DSM-IV any day now. \r\n\r\nAs I said before*, the sheer quantity of calories in evidence inside the rubble piles is far in excess of that attributable to explosives sufficient to cause the collapse as observed. \r\n\r\n*Why am I having to repeat this? I can think of only two possibilities: 1) stupidity; 2) dishonesty. It's as if nothing I've said to you has even registered","author":"Get away from the holy-brained Amerozombies!","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 01:37:49","modified":"2006-09-23 01:37:49","fileurl":""},{"id":179439,"heading":"True baloney","article":"talk about ducking, weaving, ad -hominim sputtering and pure bull shit. What have I missed?\r\n Oh, your lofty self opinion as the paragon of truth and repository of scientific ' world-class forensic talent' and knowledge. \r\nBTW, ( and for the reader unfamiliar with this self professed and attack dog response ) aluminum doesn't fuse yellow hot because, it being a 'ium' metal. at that temperature, will burn in a oxidation reaction; but being the Whizz, you know all about this, don't you? 'the planes did it' \r\nBut I am impressed by the tap dance.'\r\nCompost. Ha ha ha ha. That would be the best place for this 'explanation' you offer. Doesn't take too long for YOUR inevitable melt down does it?\r\n","author":"wow","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 02:26:00","modified":"2006-09-23 02:26:00","fileurl":""},{"id":179441,"heading":"a thought from","article":"There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything or to doubt everything: both ways keep you from thinking.","author":"Alfred Korzybski","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 02:48:48","modified":"2006-09-23 02:48:48","fileurl":""},{"id":179450,"heading":"somewhat surprised","article":"It is very important for certain groups to unravel the 9 \/ 11 truth movement through internal and external divisive techniques. There are the "no planers" the "mini nukers " the "scalar weapon" and the devoted rearguard members of direct interest who reside on these blogs and news wires, as the intelligence agencies, very interested parties and all their operatives. These persons are vested in activities that are either, disinformation to muddy the waters or the deliberate provocateurs inside the various groups.\r\nAll these phenomena are the results of real desperation by an overclass that is beginning to realize the old standards of public perception control are failing, and badly. Unfortunately for them at least, this is a new game for them and the actions they take are basically defensive in the face of a sea of data available to an exponentially growing public.\r\nBut it's interesting and very instructive to observe the standard methods of attack.\r\nAnd how they approach the 'sato ghrati' in a open contest. The one thing that is important to remember is they lose badly.\r\n","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 04:04:56","modified":"2006-09-23 04:04:56","fileurl":""},{"id":179453,"heading":"Comments","article":"Just a few random bits.\r\n\r\nI believe that charcoal is created by the absence of oxygen, not the presence of it. The oxygen is required to burn something else to heat the chamber that the wood is in, but you don't want that all over the wood.\r\n\r\nI'm not proposing that this is what happened. I don't know what happened, but, the more I mull it over, the more plausible it seems.\r\n\r\nTWs assertions about steel seem to fit. I totally agree with the point about the collapse being icing on the cake. The point was to hit the towers and Pentagon.\r\n\r\nI think that if Bush wanted to hit the towers, he'd just cooperate with someone who wants to do it.\r\n\r\nI don't think Israel did it. It's possible Israelis were involved, especially if the neocons were involved. Basically, I think it's very likely that Bin Laden's group did it. I just wonder why.\r\n\r\nLook, here's a parallel. I just spent a few hours watching old WW2 propaganda films and cartoons. They're mostly anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. That's the conventional ignorance -- that Hitler was a bad guy so we went in to stop him. Nobody who's serious about history believes that.\r\n\r\nLikewise, the reasons for the actions after 9\/11 are not totally clear, but the PNAC document and the post-war Afghanistan government indicate "empire." What's not really clear is the whos, whats, and whys of 911.\r\n\r\nI'll make a story up that might be plausible. Iran and Israel, though not allies, had a common interest in seeing an invasion of Iraq carried out. They see value in supporting enemy terrorists, to increase tensions, to the point where the US steps up bombing on Iraq, and destabilizes it. They hear about the WTC plans, but remain mum, knowing it would draw the US into the region.\r\n\r\nThat's just pure speculation there. No evidence. No experience. No information.","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 07:06:28","modified":"2006-09-23 07:06:28","fileurl":""},{"id":179482,"heading":"draw the US into the region"","article":"If the ultimate goal was Iraq, why didn't they set up 19 Iraqis instead of Saudis? \r\n","author":"a question","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 10:42:47","modified":"2006-09-23 10:42:47","fileurl":""},{"id":179485,"heading":"johnk","article":"1.\r\n" I believe that charcoal is created by the absence of oxygen, not the presence of it. The oxygen is required to burn something else to heat the chamber that the wood is in, but you don't want that all over the wood"\r\n\r\nWhere is charcoal mentioned and what does that have to do with this?\r\n2.\r\n "TWs assertions about steel seem to fit."\r\n\r\nThen the UL tests of the WTC steel are in question?\r\n[From: Kevin R Ryan\/SBN\/ULI\r\nTo: frank.gayle@nist.gov\r\nDate: 11\/11\/2004\r\n \r\nDr. Gayle,\r\n \r\nHaving recently reviewed your team's report of 10\/19\/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.\r\n \r\nAs I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.]\r\n3.\r\n"wet carpets" {?} and other class Two fire code materials need ideal furnace conditions to do more than smolder and the evidence of people standing by the openings belie this proposal. \r\n4.\r\n"I don't think Israel did it. It's possible Israelis were involved, especially if the neocons were involved. Basically, I think it's very likely that Bin Laden's group did it. I just wonder why. \r\nLook, here's a parallel. I just spent a few hours watching old WW2 propaganda films and cartoons. They're mostly anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. That's the conventional ignorance -- that Hitler was a bad guy so we went in to stop him. Nobody who's serious about history believes that."\r\n\r\nThis is not even related to the original premiss and I'm not sure what this has to do with physical evidence. A side distraction? Nor sure what you are getting at here. johnk.\r\n\r\n","author":"?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 11:37:34","modified":"2006-09-23 11:37:34","fileurl":""},{"id":179529,"heading":"Okay II, oK & Co.","article":""aluminum doesn't fuse yellow hot"\r\n\r\nMaybe you're right. If you got your info from Jones though, don't count on it. Whatever that burning solid was, its physical behavior wasn't consistent with thermite either (a finely divided powder that's essentially a super-hot LIQUID when ignited -- not "chunky"). \r\n\r\nThe real point here, oK & pals, is that the tower collapses, no matter what caused them, were way out on the extreme end of the "freak occurences" category. The room for all sorts of unexpected virtually inexplicable weirdnesses both during and after is enormous. The best structural scientists on earth would be dishonest were they to take your "definitely this, obviously that" tone. The towers' structural system (among others) was quite unique; the physical attack they suffered also has virtually no exact counterpart in history; the sheer scale of the collapse was quite unprecedented; put all this together and no one but an ignorant layman with a political agenda would presume such cut-and-dried knowledge about how things "obviously" "definitely" should have transpired \r\n\r\nI said this shit before, too:\r\n"I think Johnk's point is that there are whole alternate universes of variables being left out by the 9-11 "we know ALL the truth" crowd, which has a very layman-like way of reducing a fantastically complex scenario to "1+1=2" "\r\n\r\nOh, but you got your holy grail, the great vaunted "smoking gun," so who gives a fuck? "Don't you dare pop our bubble, TW, you CoIntelPro cop you! We're SO onto you!! Yeah, you're gonna go down hard!" \r\n\r\nYou don't have shit. You're a herd of idiots being led by a pack of lying assholes \/ political maniacs, some of whom I know first-hand and wouldn't trust as far as a fuckin flea could throw them. It's obvious you've watched WAY too much TV and movies, and this has become your "reality." \r\n\r\nSpeaking of CoIntelPro cops, have you ever heard of "snitch jacketing." It's when the REAL CoIntelPro cop frames someone else as an infiltrator in order to deflect suspicion away from themselves. It's a classic move\r\n\r\nBased on the "proof" Stephen Jones has fabrica-- er, "assembled," you don't have anything like a conclusive case that the towers were blown up, all you got is a lot of pumping screaming bullshit noise, and yet here you are throwing all your bets into this one horse, which will never cross anything resembling a finish line. It's just gonna keep running around and around out in some field like the loco nag that it is. Mark my words. Meanwhile, the broad circumstantial case that this government pulled 9-11 has never ceased to be your prize possession, and the few people in your leadership who do have admirable minds, like Webster Tarpley, still appreciate this. Too bad the rest of you are reactionary simpletons, but then 9-11 **POLITICS** has become quite the band-wagon, so I guess it's inevitable that the mental LCD would take over. It just makes me feel more than ever like this country is hopelessly fucked, that's all: Even the alleged "TRUTH-SEEKERS" are willing to use specious arguments for political purposes, and it can't be brought to your attention that you're doing it because you don't even have a truth ethic, really. You're just flavor #583 in the endless parade of American fuckheads. You want to save the world? Group-hug some thermonukes and blow yourselves into the stratosphere. Take the mental\/spiritual wasteland called "Middle America" with you. It's the main tumor killing the world","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 17:52:40","modified":"2006-09-23 17:52:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179532,"heading":"more mud please","article":" Nope, no matter how you slice it. still baloney. Even if you take 12 paragraphs to slice it.\r\nAnd it's easy to cast ad-hominims with out any evidence. \r\n\r\nJust like our Zionists pervs.","author":"Good at Obfuscation","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 17:59:40","modified":"2006-09-23 17:59:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179544,"heading":"Recant","article":"After some thought, i'm recanting the Iran part. I still see motivation for some people in Israel to hope for a terrorist attack in the US. (Iran's more interested in Iraq, which has been a top priority for them all this time.) Had a less serious 911 ocurred (say, one plane, no collapse, or no planes because all of them were shot down), we would have stepped up our presence in the area.\r\n\r\nMaybe other people in other countries have their own motivations. I just don't know what they are.\r\n\r\nAlso, speaking of Iran, the whole situation is going nuts. Iraq was being bombed during the 90s... and when Iraq's being attacked, some folks in Iran want to help. Makes me wonder if the current trash talk isn't just the tip of the iceberg -- maybe there's a lover's quarrel going on between Iranian spies and Bush's Iran-Contra buddies. Then again, the relationship with Bin Laden and the CIA funders was over with, too. Revenge? Beats me.","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 18:42:22","modified":"2006-09-23 18:42:22","fileurl":""},{"id":179547,"heading":"Charcoal","article":"Thanks for the UL letter.\r\n\r\nI'll assume a lot of charcoal probably didn't form. It's just an idea that came to me when I read the 911 material on that linked site. \r\n\r\nAlso, I believe they test against wet carpet because old carpet probably burns like new, wet carpet. (See the EPA link I provided - they also tested against wet carpet, but in a furnace-like condition.)\r\n\r\nOf course, the carpet in the WTC wasn't wet, but dirty. Perhaps, the jet fuel could have "dry cleaned" the dirty carpet and made it behave like new, but untreated carpet. (That's all "dry cleaning" is -- solvents that dissolve grease stains in fabric.) Jet fuel is just kerosene and paraffin, and probably doesn't mix with water (being a fuel and all) -- while dirty carpet might wick up jet fuel, due to all the drops of mayo blobs and chocoaltes by the office workers.\r\n\r\nBut I'm going out on a limb here. I just made all that stuff up. I'm no scientist, just a regular guy who, as a child, learned to make "flamethrowers" with a cigarette and a can of hairspray.","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 19:24:03","modified":"2006-09-23 19:24:03","fileurl":""},{"id":179548,"heading":"not resonable","article":""Then again, the relationship with Bin Laden and the CIA funders was over with, too."\r\nNot with the ISI wiring Atta money up to the week of the attack, johnk.\r\nThe ISI is just an extension of the CIA.","author":"Hardly","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 19:26:27","modified":"2006-09-23 19:26:27","fileurl":""},{"id":179550,"heading":"mistake \/ missunderstanding.","article":"Alright.\r\nI got off on the wrong tack here. Osama Denied the relationship to the attack anyway in a non video f2f interview with the BBC.\r\n\r\nWho ever heard of a 'chunky' precipitate from thermite in any of the visuals?\r\nThis TW is a real piece of work.\r\n","author":"Hardly","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 19:32:44","modified":"2006-09-23 19:32:44","fileurl":""},{"id":179554,"heading":"Wake me up when one of them says something real. Snore.","article":""Who ever heard of a 'chunky' precipitate from thermite in any of the visuals?"\r\n\r\nHuh, yoo mean yoo aint seed this vid-eee-oh yit\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/video.google.com\/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet%2B9\/11\r\n\r\nBut yoo a EK-SPURT!\r\n\r\nMAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 20:22:20","modified":"2006-09-23 20:22:20","fileurl":""},{"id":179556,"heading":"nice try Whizz","article":"CHUNCKY? Cheese? \r\n\r\nThat's what I call an ex-spurt opinion.\r\nThis is what is known as trying to 'baffle with bull shit'.","author":"Vedio not available","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 20:29:35","modified":"2006-09-23 20:29:35","fileurl":""},{"id":179560,"heading":"not just incandesent iron","article":"incandesent iron streaming from various pionts as well as 'squibs' and the resulting pyroclastic clouds all show evidence of an extremely energetic pulverization.\r\njohnk, why haven't you been interested in this event? This seems strange.\r\nWe have come to expect more from you. I realize you have other tasks, but this is a super critical facet, a prima fascia crime of the overclass authoritarian structure.\r\nI thought you arkies were more into analysis.","author":"oK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 21:49:04","modified":"2006-09-23 21:49:04","fileurl":""},{"id":179566,"heading":"Here try this one cheesedicks","article":"Found another copy:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\n\r\nBoth S. Jones and A. Jones have claimed the material spilling out of the window is thermite. There is a point in the video in which you can clearly see tumbling solid pieces, i.e. "chunks." \r\n\r\nI know fucking well you scum have seen this video. Whichever of you cheesedicks said "aluminum doesn't fuse yellow-hot," for example. Why didn't you just admit you've seen it? Cuz you're jumping leaping hole-hopping POLITICAL RATS, mebbe? Yeah.\r\n\r\nIf you really hadn't seen it, you're an even more assholish bunch of posers than I thought\r\n\r\nI especially like the part where the New York babies get their bassinet kicked over real good and have a mass mental breakdown. HAHA! Clue for stupid-ass Americans: New Yorkers don't live in the same country as you. They're the arrogant colons who took over here after the British got chased out. They hate you, as colons *must* hate those they parasitize if they're to justify their hookworm existence. They're your mortal enemies. Fuck 'em. The next time something like this happens to them, dance and sing and call whoever did it your friend. That'll fuck the psy-op right there. You got that, Termini? ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 22:14:19","modified":"2006-09-23 22:14:19","fileurl":""},{"id":179568,"heading":"windy here isn't it?","article":"I know that CHUNKY strainer wouldn't work. \r\nIs that all you have? And you base 'the planes did it' on CHUNCKY incandescent streams of metal?\r\nVery good. So far. I am laughing now.","author":"Evil Wind and Cheese","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 22:21:48","modified":"2006-09-23 22:21:48","fileurl":""},{"id":179569,"heading":"You puke a dictionary real pretty, oK,...","article":"...but do you actually have a THOUGHT in your brain? You beg the question by presenting these ridiculous "show sentences" that don't really say much.\r\n\r\nCould I get some actual cogent feedback on the following for example? Do you have it in you?\r\n\r\nThe steel didn't have to melt for the towers to fail. Steel can fail by deformation without melting. Grab a table fork with both hands and you can bend it right over. This unrecovering deformation is called 'yielding.' How much stress per square inch of section a steel can absorb before yielding is called its 'yield strength.' Yield strength, NOT melting point, is the key to the collapse of the towers (and to structural design parameters in general). The yield strength of structural steels is extremely high at mundane temperatures, but declines in a roughly linear manner as the steel is heated. By 'roughly linear,' I mean that whatever percentage the steel is heated toward its melting point from room temperature, this is approximately how much its yield strength declines from the room temperature value. \r\n\r\nSteel building frames are NOT "fantastically strong." They are surprisingly fragile. This is what engineering is all about: getting the structure EXACTLY as strong as it needs to be, no stronger. Steel sections in most structures are calculated to support foreseeable loads plus a 25% "safety factor." Therefore the steel of a building only has to be weakened by 20% for structural collapse to become imminent. Therefore -- per "roughly linear" -- it only has to be heated 20% of the way between room temperature and melting point for collapse to become imminent. This would happen in the mid-hundreds of degrees centigrade. \r\n\r\nThis is why conventional steel-frame construction calls for FIRE-CLADDING around all structural members, usually in the form of poured concrete. This IS NOT for strength. It actually decreases the structural efficiency of the steel frame and thus limits the design. What the concrete does is sop up heat so the frame doesn't fail in the event of a bad fire. ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 22:27:50","modified":"2006-09-23 22:27:50","fileurl":""},{"id":179570,"heading":"Oh, I've already hit you with WAY more than that, Punk-Boy","article":"With the single exception of the "aluminum doesn't fuse yellow-hot" remark, not a one of you punks has rebutted SHYITT","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 22:32:27","modified":"2006-09-23 22:32:27","fileurl":""},{"id":179571,"heading":"you're funny when you pop","article":"What we have here is another temper tantrum from TW or what ever you call yourself now.\r\nStill laughing at the dance you do.\r\n'the planes did it'\r\nThat would of course account for the CHUNCKY metal streams coming from the buildings before collapse. Thanks for telling us your interpretation on what we've seen.\r\nAnd the link which did operate.","author":"thanks for the grins there TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-23 22:42:44","modified":"2006-09-23 22:42:44","fileurl":""},{"id":179595,"heading":"Gee, the CD punks couldn't come up with anything better than a porn redirect","article":"Okay, CD punks, second chance: see if you can rebut this one:\r\n\r\nHere are videos of the north and south tower collapses. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.911research.com\/wtc\/evidence\/videos\/docs\/south_tower_collapse.mpeg \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.911research.com\/wtc\/evidence\/videos\/docs\/north_tower_collapse.mpeg \r\n\r\nQ: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" \r\n\r\nA: It means that the demolitions teams had to have rigged only a single stratum of each building with charges -- the stratum in which the collapse initiated -- and that a given plane then had to fly into exactly that level. However improbable this sounds, you have to take this improbability and MULTIPLY IT BY ITSELF, since the stunt was successfully pulled off TWICE, once for each building. \r\n\r\nThere is of course the competing hypothesis: that the manner in which the structural failures occurred precisely at the levels of impact is elegantly explained by the impacts themselves. \r\n\r\nI know which explanation Sir William of Occam would choose: the second ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 03:49:08","modified":"2006-09-24 03:49:08","fileurl":""},{"id":179596,"heading":"wrong response.","article":"this is what is known as a false delema.\r\n"Q: "In both cases, the collapses are clearly seen to initiate at the respective levels of impact. What does this imply for the idea that the collapses can only have been caused by explosives placed in advance?" "\r\n\r\nA. Since remote guidance or a version of Global Hawk is suspected to have been used, it only follows that the perps who wired the structures knew the probable points of impact, therefore the point of initial explosive sequencing. Many 'planes did it' proponents bring this apparent anomaly up to infer that because this is where the destruction *reportedly* started and that this was caused by the impact.\r\n\r\nThe destruction on the north WTC ( 2nd link ) began with the *core and radio tower* de-solving into destruction and not the point of impact which failed first. \r\n\r\nYou still are avoiding the admitted flows of molten steel which is not possible is we only consider a kerosine fire ( jp4) and the low temperatures this type of fuel produces.","author":"Option 3","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 05:25:16","modified":"2006-09-24 05:25:16","fileurl":""},{"id":179599,"heading":"oh, one more thing, Whizz","article":"You can stuff the junk yard dog dialogue because it makes you look like a spastic, spoiled baby. \r\n\r\nExplain the molten steel.","author":"this","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 06:13:29","modified":"2006-09-24 06:13:29","fileurl":""},{"id":179602,"heading":"I'm not avoiding shit","article":"If you want me to address a point, quit wallowing around in the verbal mud and EXPRESS it.\r\n\r\nBy "admitted flows of molten steel" do you mean what was found in the basement weeks later? I addressed that. I don't even insist my conjecture is reality. The real point is there's too much time lag, too many calories in evidence, in short too much extraneous noise creeping into the picture for the molten steel in the basement to figure into rigorous "proof" that explosives were used. Like so many of the CD crowd's favorites, this has always been a RHETORICAL point of suasion, not a scientific one\r\n\r\nDo you mean the burning material from the "thermite" video? That could not possibly have been steel, which burns freely only in an enriched, heated oxygen atmosphere. \r\n\r\nI don't know what else you could mean. You have to be more clear.\r\n\r\nThe radio tower merely telegraphs the failure of the core, which could be happening at any elevation: you can't tell, it's occurring deep inside the building. I never said "the POINT of impact," dammit, I said the LEVEL of impact. Reviewing the video, the initial buckling of the exterior shell seems to happen several floors above the lowest level of the fire, which implies this is where the core failure initiated also, but no one on earth really knows. If so, this isn't inconsistent with the idea that the fire caused by the plane engulfed the core and cooked it to the point of failure (mid-hundreds of degrees C, remember). Fire and its heat product both propagate UP, a la convection. Another thing this video documents is that the fire was still a terrifying inferno, not "mostly burned out," as I believe has been argued. \r\n\r\nWhy would the demolition teams rig the two towers DIFFERENTLY?\r\n\r\nBy bringing up remote control at this juncture, what you've done is introduce a CONJECTURE that you THINK gets you around my objection. Perhap's you didn't recognize my reference to Occam's Razor? Occam's Razor still favors my premise over yours. And your conjecture doesn't figure into rigorous proof either. We can go on endlessly about what COULD have happened, but what does this have to do with your "proof." Even if you're right, having a demolitions team rig only one stratum of the building would have still been very chancy, ergo very hare-brained, and any demolitions scenario you can come up with to get around this only increases the complexity further, i.e. puts you further into the red with Sir Occam. Your desperation to cling to controlled demolition is taking you into very Rube Goldberg scenarios here, and controlled demolition was already Rube Goldberg enough\r\n\r\nMy point with Occam's Razor (and yet more stuff I haven't even brought up) is that I have good sound rational reasons to not commit to controlled demolition, while your "proof" is in fact a figment of your highly motivated imagination, stroked by a few very slick rhetoricians (Griffin foremost) and reinforced by all the people riding that band-wagon with you. \r\n\r\nBand-wagons bore me, angels-on-a-pinhead bullshit-o-holics like Griffin piss me off no end, and brainwashed glassy-eyed fanatics give me the creeps! That last is what the CD crowd has become.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 07:55:08","modified":"2006-09-24 07:55:08","fileurl":""},{"id":179603,"heading":"oh, one more thing, PUNK","article":"I've brought up lots of stuff you obviously can't handle, AND I've already fielded your "molten steel" canard (for the fourth fucking time: too many calories), and yet you keep clinging to it like it's your life preserver \r\n\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\nblat! blat! blat!\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\nblat! blat! blat!\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\nblat! blat! blat!\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\nblat! blat! blat!\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\n"Molten steel!!"\r\nblat! blat! blat!\r\n\r\n"...it makes you look like a spastic, spoiled baby" \r\n\r\nThis is yet another sign you're less than astute, oK: you imagine I give a fuck what you or anyone else around here thinks of me","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 08:04:05","modified":"2006-09-24 08:04:05","fileurl":""},{"id":179604,"heading":"oh, yet another thing, PUNK","article":"If you think my 'aluminum fires in the rubble' scenario is absurd, why don't you explain why? You can't do it, can you? If such an argument involves more than one sentence or one idea, you're fucked, aren't ya?\r\n\r\nRemember this: I'm not the one who cursed myself with claims of "proof." This leaves me free to indulge in conjectures all I want. You're the one pretending to know "exactly" "precisely" what "obviously" "definitely" happened. Don't blame me cuz you stuck your head in that bear trap. Idiot.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 08:15:22","modified":"2006-09-24 08:15:22","fileurl":""},{"id":179607,"heading":"Lack of Interest","article":"It's just my personality. I always read the local section of the paper before the national and world news sections.","author":"johnk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 10:22:02","modified":"2006-09-24 10:22:02","fileurl":""},{"id":179611,"heading":"more bad wind","article":""By "admitted flows of molten steel" do you mean what was found in the basement weeks later?"\r\nno you spoiled baby, I mean the CHUNCKY streams of iron \/ steel from the video you provided links to.\r\nSheeesh.","author":"'tisk","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 11:45:11","modified":"2006-09-24 11:45:11","fileurl":""},{"id":179614,"heading":"yeah. I know I'm cherry picking","article":"but christ, you're easy to reveal as a student of the ol soft shoe.\r\n\r\n"Do you mean the burning material from the "thermite" video? That could not possibly have been steel, which burns freely only in an enriched, heated oxygen atmosphere. " \r\n\r\nWhat are you talking about? Is this more of your extensive knowledge in chemistry? Anyone can make thermite. All you need is a magnet to harvest Fe2O3 9 (Black rust or iron filings) and aluminum powder.\r\nhttp:\/\/www.ilpi.com\/genchem\/demo\/thermite\/index.html\r\nWhen ignited, produces a white hot "exothermic" ( and then some ) reaction of molten steel at temperatures that will cut through any metal.\r\nPlease. This is too easy, Whizz.\r\n\r\n","author":"Major Cheese","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 12:01:43","modified":"2006-09-24 12:01:43","fileurl":""},{"id":179616,"heading":"correction","article":""Maj. Cheese!"\r\n\r\n"yes, sir"\r\n"bend over, you erred. That's NOT "molten steel" that's incandescent, nearly pure IRON which only remains pure until it encounters 'contaminants!"\r\n"GOD I'm sorry!"\r\n\r\nYou cannot get good help anymore.","author":"Gen.Shieshkoft","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 12:29:16","modified":"2006-09-24 12:29:16","fileurl":""},{"id":179621,"heading":"johnk","article":" Battalian O Freaks request for johnk.\r\nPlease sir, if you must voice an opinion on these very serious issues.\r\n[ And we know you do not pretend to represent IMC LA but we've come to love you, ya and any how, don't break our hearts please...] please be interested.\r\nThank you.","author":"oK & Support Battalian O Freaks","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 12:56:40","modified":"2006-09-24 12:56:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179642,"heading":"Bin Laden dead of typhus","article":"PARIS - President Jacques Chirac said Saturday that information contained in a leaked intelligence document raising the possibility that Osama bin Laden may have died of typhoid in Pakistan last month is "in no way whatsoever confirmed." \r\n\r\n \r\nChirac said he was "a bit surprised" at the leak and has asked Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie to probe how a document from a French foreign intelligence service was published in the French press.\r\n\r\nThe regional newspaper l'Est Republicain on Saturday printed what it described as a copy of a confidential document from the DGSE intelligence service citing an uncorroborated report from Saudi secret services that the leader of the al-Qaida terror network had died.\r\n\r\nOfficials from Afghanistan to Washington expressed doubts about the report.\r\n\r\nTwo American intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue said Saturday that U.S. agencies have no evidence to suggest a reason to believe that bin Laden is dead or dying.\r\n\r\nThe DGSE transmitted the document, dated Sept. 21 or Thursday, to Chirac and other top French officials, the newspaper said.\r\n\r\n"This information is in no way whatsoever confirmed," Chirac said Saturday when asked about the document. "I have no comment."\r\n\r\nA senior official in Afghanistan's Foreign Ministry said he was "very skeptical of the truthfulness" of the document, noting past false reports of the death of bin Laden. He declined to be identified because he was not authorized to discuss the issue publicly.\r\n\r\nIn Washington, Blair Jones, a presidential spokesman, said Saturday that the White House could not confirm the accuracy of the report that bin Laden may have died.\r\n\r\n CIA duty officer Paul Gimigliano also said he could not confirm the DGSE report.\r\n\r\nThe Washington-based IntelCenter, which monitors terrorism communications, said it was not aware of any similar reports on the Internet.\r\n\r\n"We've seen nothing from any al-Qaida messaging or other indicators that would point to the death of Osama bin Laden," IntelCenter director Ben N. Venzke told The Associated Press.\r\n\r\nAl-Qaida would likely release information of his death fairly quickly if it were true, said Venzke, whose organization also provides counterterrorism intelligence services for the American government.\r\n\r\n"They would want to release that to sort of control the way that it unfolds. If they wait too long, they could lose the initiative on it," he said.\r\n\r\nThe last time the IntelCenter says it could be sure bin Laden was alive was June 29, when al-Qaida released an audiotape in which the terror leader eulogized the death of al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was killed in a U.S. air strike in Iraq earlier that month.\r\n\r\nChirac spoke at a news conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Compiegne, France, where the leaders were holding a summit.\r\n\r\nPutin suggested that leaks can be ways to manipulate. "When there are leaks ... one can say that (they) were done especially."\r\n\r\nEarlier the French defense ministry said it was opening an investigation into the leak. \r\n\r\n"The information published this morning by the l'Est Republicain newspaper concerning the possible death of Osama bin Laden cannot be confirmed," a Defense Ministry statement said. \r\n\r\nThe DGSE, or Direction Generale des Services Exterieurs, indicated that its information came from a single source. \r\n\r\n"According to a usually reliable source, Saudi security services are now convinced that Osama bin Laden is dead," said the intelligence report. \r\n\r\nThere have been periodic reports of bin Laden's illness or death in recent years but none has been proven accurate. \r\n\r\nAccording to this report, Saudi security services were pursuing further details, notably the place of his burial. \r\n\r\n"The chief of al-Qaida was a victim of a severe typhoid crisis while in Pakistan on August 23, 2006," the document says. His geographic isolation meant that medical assistance was impossible, the French report said, adding that his lower limbs were allegedly paralyzed. \r\n\r\nThe report further said Saudi security services had their first information on bin Laden's alleged death on Sept. 4. \r\n\r\n"Today, bin Laden is certainly not in Afghanistan," Bentegeat said. "No one is completely certain that he is even alive."\r\n\r\n","author":"newswire","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 15:18:23","modified":"2006-09-24 15:18:23","fileurl":""},{"id":179677,"heading":"oh sure","article":"Gee after being dead for over two years they finally notice the smell?\r\nhttp:\/\/nevertoomuchgarlic.net","author":"Limited DC","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 16:00:01","modified":"2006-09-24 16:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":179682,"heading":"after the puppet show is over","article":"What does OSL being dead-\r\n[ this parrot is DEAD... ]\r\n-have to do with molten iron \/steel flowing from the building in the moments before that very energetic disintegration ? \r\n\r\n'planes did it' ","author":"Exit thru Flux Please","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 17:26:26","modified":"2006-09-24 17:26:26","fileurl":""},{"id":179693,"heading":"And now you're back to knowing POSITIVELY what the stuff from the window was","article":"Repeating myself again here:\r\n"Clue for 9-11 bullshitters: insisting you know something like this for sure when there's no way you can is a kind of lie. No, really!"\r\n\r\nCaptain Cheesedick: "Anyone can make thermite"\r\n\r\nUh-huh. And what does this have to do with steel\/iron not burning freely in open air?\r\n\r\nClue for teevee-edjamacated mur-kann imm-bow-siles: Fe2O3 mixed with aluminum is NOT the same thing as steel. Is this too hard for you?\r\n\r\nSo now that was "molten steel" seen falling through the window? Uh, "molten" means, um, ah, "LIQUID," YA KNOW?? LIQUIDS don't usually exhibit properties like *brittleness* and *dimensional_stability* in free-fall. No, really!\r\n\r\nYou were saying something was "easy," Capt. Cheesedick? I guess you meant the ease with which you lie through your teeth?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 23:30:40","modified":"2006-09-24 23:30:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179694,"heading":"Hey, wait a minute","article":"You said "ADMITTED flows..." So now the US guv has declared that stuff to be "molten steel??" I'd like to see that announcement. Got a link?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 23:37:06","modified":"2006-09-24 23:37:06","fileurl":""},{"id":179695,"heading":"bend over, you err...","article":"I think you should try it out. Thermite is VERY dangerous, but useful as it is easy to make. Not for dweebs or dorks who complain after the results burn through what ever it was on and what ever was under it. as well as anything near it. They used it during WWII in the fire storm raids over Germany. \r\nAnd we still have no explanation for how 'the planes did it' by producing CHUNCKY ( I like it smooth ) flows of incandescent iron before total disintegration.\r\n\r\n","author":"Anti-matter Power Ranger","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-24 23:42:32","modified":"2006-09-24 23:42:32","fileurl":""},{"id":179700,"heading":"Segu\u00e9ing to an earlier topic...","article":"You brought up remote control, oK. I'm a major fan of the remote control theory. So clean and tidy, what a perfect 'plausible deniability' scenario! Need-to-know could be limited to an amazingly tiny number of core agents with very tidy public exposures, IF ANY -- unlike controlled demolition, where you have teams of goons grunting and puffing as they lug hundreds of pounds of thermite or whatever around to place it on, among other things, THE COLUMNS FLANKING THE DOORS TO THE MAIN ELEVATORS ON ANY GIVEN FLOOR. Oh, but who's gonna notice that? It's only two of the most watched buildings in the world. \r\n\r\nThen there's the way a certain Rabbi Dov Zakheim (a co-author of PNAC's 'Rebuilding America's Defenses, close advisor to Dubya Bush during his 2000 campaign, head Pentagon money man afterward (made off with a cool $trillion$ or so), zionist royalty with family connections to the original Jabotinsky nutcases) just happened to be an executive officer with Systems Planning Corporation, a world leader in REMOTE CONTROL AVIONICS. Yeah. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.apfn.net\/messageboard\/02-14-05\/discussion.cgi.58.html\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.thetruthseeker.co.uk\/article.asp?ID=1927\r\n\r\nThis connection is so amazing! It's enough to make you fear for your life just knowing about. It has been incredible to me how little interest this angle has attracted from the likes of you. Granted it doesn't have people all around it blowing trumpets and banging drums the way neato-cool CD does. Oh, and here's the clincher: it doesn't have the POLITICAL "legs"\r\n\r\nYeah","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-25 00:19:31","modified":"2013-11-11 00:44:27","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/typical_wtc_floor_plan.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/typical_wtc_floor_plan.jpg"}},{"id":179702,"heading":"Non Sequitor","article":"Your Einstein quote was a fraud. But you already knew that, didn't you?","author":"Hey, TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 00:36:10","modified":"2006-09-25 00:36:10","fileurl":""},{"id":179704,"heading":"Whizz has a plan","article":"Thanks for the floor plans. Now could we have the real floor plans since all the blue prints from the WTC are now classified by the Justice Dept.?\r\n\r\nAnd during the power downs, a well trained team with proper thermate, thermite and \/HE could rig the building with out using 'tons' of material if *they* had operational structural plans.\r\nContinue, oh great Whizzard.\r\n\r\n","author":"But 'the planes did it'","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 00:59:57","modified":"2006-09-25 00:59:57","fileurl":""},{"id":179705,"heading":"Any good architectural library","article":"Get off the web. Look it up in a book.","author":"would have floor schematics from the WTC","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 01:12:55","modified":"2006-09-25 01:12:55","fileurl":""},{"id":179706,"heading":"got a picture for you.","article":"This photo shows, above the fireman, a major support cut by SOMETHING that left traces of metal drippings along the 45 degree cut.\r\n\r\nThis is during the immediate search and rescue before any of the materials were removed. \r\n","author":"At the Scene","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-25 01:14:16","modified":"2006-09-25 01:14:16","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/45_degreepic87932.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/45_degreepic87932.jpg"}},{"id":179707,"heading":"AMERICAN ZIONIST PSYCHOS DID 9-11!!!!","article":"You've already proven you are a cheat and a liar. You've already proven you'll continue to lie until you get called on it.\r\nSo lets see proof of this allegation.\r\nWe are waiting.\r\n\r\n","author":"so lets see proof","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 01:21:46","modified":"2006-09-25 01:21:46","fileurl":""},{"id":179708,"heading":"SY needs a keyboard muzzel","article":"before SY gets hidden, or after, why do you want me to break into a library now at night, on the weekend?\r\n\r\nI think that since you provided the 'floor plan' it would be up to you to prove its authenticity.\r\n\r\nstill no explanation for the dripping, oozing, CHUNCKY streams of incandescent metal. Not from 'the planes did it'.\r\n\r\n","author":"So tell me","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 01:28:29","modified":"2006-09-25 01:28:29","fileurl":""},{"id":179710,"heading":"ignorace\/bravado is bad","article":"and the effects they have on thought .\r\n[ I explained about the effects of thermite]\r\n"Uh-huh. And what does this have to do with steel\/iron not burning freely in open air? [ what does what have to do with anything? Can you understand the process I explained? If not, I am well trained to instruct,even the more challenged students]\r\n\r\nClue for teevee-edjamacated mur-kann imm-bow-siles: Fe2O3 mixed with aluminum is NOT the same thing as steel. Is this too hard for you? "\r\n[did you even read the link I provided? I did say an incandescent Iron precipitate that cut through any metal, didn't I? ]\r\nAnd that's just raw thermite.","author":"examples of cavitation","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 02:13:23","modified":"2006-09-25 02:13:23","fileurl":""},{"id":179712,"heading":"Ever heard of a CUTTING TORCH, dumfuck?","article":""...a major support cut by SOMETHING ... This is during the immediate search and rescue before any of the materials were removed." \r\n\r\nAnd whose august word would I be taking for that last part? Yours? Griffin's? Jones'? If you can back this up by citing the photograph's origin, please do. I'm betting you don't have a blithering clue where it came from. You don't imagine the rescue workers weren't cutting through stuff like this during the initial search and rescue effort, do you? \r\n\r\nOh, and look at how honkin' HUGE that structural element is. I bet it would take a lot of pounds of thermite to burn through something like that. However many pounds it took, you have to multiply that by however many such beams were cut. And I didn't say "tons," lying dicksuck\r\n\r\nThis is the whole trouble with your "proof" right here in this photo. It's the same sort of argument the zionists use to "prove" things: a cherry-picked hash of talking points, images, simple-minded technical and historical canards, etc. that doesn't really live up to the word "proof." What it DOES add up to is a **MEMETIC DESIGN** originated by Griffin, the one you controlled demolition fanatics infect each other with, just like the zio-Borg do with their bigotspeak, and this doesn't happen against anybody's will. You schmucks WANT to believe. \r\n\r\nIf you weren't such grotesque incestuous fucking mental slobs, you just might come up with a REAL smoking gun\r\n\r\nBut never mind all that. I'm letting you get away with far too much. I asked you a question, lying fuck. You ignored it. Here it is again\r\n\r\nYou said "ADMITTED flows..." So now the US guv has declared that stuff to be "molten steel??" I'd like to see that announcement. Got a link?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 02:56:39","modified":"2006-09-25 02:56:39","fileurl":""},{"id":179713,"heading":""I am well trained to instruct"","article":"You can't even communicate effectively in writing! And now you're presuming to do better verbally? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You "explained a process?" When the fuck was that, Einstein? Why don't you show me the passage? Wow, you have a really grandiose opinion of yourself, huh? Maybe if you stopped bubbling that bong 15 times a day, you'd actually live up to it","author":"HAHAHAHAHAHAA!!","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:04:01","modified":"2006-09-25 03:04:01","fileurl":""},{"id":179714,"heading":"ever USE a cutting torch?","article":"About the above photo.\r\n\r\nIf you know about the *process* of a cutting torch, you would know that the 'cutter' would have to be INSIDE the huge piece of steel to produce such an external bead\/dripline. Such a process would also BAKE the poor unfortunate doing the work. Having proficiency in both gas and electric welding, I happen to know about this stuff. A course in metallurgy didn't hurt either.","author":"cutter","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:06:34","modified":"2006-09-25 03:06:34","fileurl":""},{"id":179716,"heading":""A course in metallurgy" -- whoopie-fuckin big deal","article":"List the phases of iron. Which of them accounts for the hardness of hardened steels?\r\n\r\nSo then you're confirming that this slag is consistent with the use of a cutting torch. Thank you!\r\n\r\nIf you're such a hot-shit welder, then you know there's more than one way to skin a cat. The cutter could have opened a hole through one of the sides so he could reach the torch in to cut this side from within -- because that's how it needed to be done for some reason. Then your hero Griffin got his hands on this photo -- without knowing ANYTHING about its context -- and crowed aha! "PROOF." Being an angels-on-a-pinhead professional sophist, that would be about his speed. Scrambling people's brains by design is all Christian Theologist bullshits have EVER done. It's all they know.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:38:28","modified":"2006-09-25 03:38:28","fileurl":""},{"id":179717,"heading":"iron- mild ,and high-carbon?","article":"What about the streams of metal, Whizz?","author":"Body faced \/Side faced carbon structure?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:44:56","modified":"2006-09-25 03:44:56","fileurl":""},{"id":179718,"heading":"while the stupid page loads","article":"-So then you're confirming that this slag is consistent with the use of a cutting torch. Thank you!-\r\n [ no you idiot, that's the opposite of what I slowly, and simply explained to you in the last post.]\r\n\r\nPlease pay attention or I'll continue to humiliate you in public, as if you need any help.","author":"Yepster","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:47:12","modified":"2006-09-25 03:47:12","fileurl":""},{"id":179719,"heading":""Body faced \/Side faced carbon structure?"","article":"That has no bearing on the questions. You don't know, do you? You're just a posturing punk-ass blowhard, aren't you? Hey, maybe your bong knows the answer! ","author":"Quit stalling","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:54:52","modified":"2006-09-25 03:54:52","fileurl":""},{"id":179720,"heading":"teasing the cat","article":""The cutter could have opened a hole through one of the sides so he could reach the torch in to cut this side from within -- "\r\n\r\nI can picture that. ( trying NOT to laugh, thinking of cutting a four foot wide steel square channel support, from a 'hole through the side' ) You ever held a job, junior?","author":"with string","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 03:58:46","modified":"2006-09-25 03:58:46","fileurl":""},{"id":179721,"heading":"I'll make it simple for Whizz.","article":"The terms body and sided faced carbon refer to the positioning of the molecule of carbon in the tempering process. But yes, tempering and quench medium are a side issue, for sure.\r\n\r\nWhat about the molten metal which I explained:\r\nIsn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light.\r\nand\r\nCannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory.","author":"here's how I'll do it.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 04:07:19","modified":"2006-09-25 04:07:19","fileurl":""},{"id":179728,"heading":"96% noise -4% pain & fury","article":"so I'll state it again.\r\n-What about the molten metal which I explained: \r\nIsn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light. \r\nand \r\nCannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory.-\r\n\r\nnothing here about cold fusion except from your desperation.","author":"TW needs to read","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 10:52:22","modified":"2006-09-25 10:52:22","fileurl":""},{"id":179729,"heading":"and the answer is","article":"from the keyboard of Whizz.\r\n\r\n"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred"\r\nSo your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed.\r\nAnd therefore is invalid.","author":"reading...","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 11:18:10","modified":"2006-09-25 11:18:10","fileurl":""},{"id":179738,"heading":"would someone rouse TW?","article":"I know he'll be grouchy and hung over, but could he address this package?\r\n{ha ha}\r\nDespite the aberrant posts about dead guys, cold fusion, profanity and general seizures of CNS dis order, read this and respond, in English.\r\nIf possible under a thousand words. \r\n\r\n[-What about the molten metal which I explained: \r\nIsn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light. \r\nand \r\nCannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.]\r\n\r\n[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ]\r\n\r\n"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred" \r\n\r\n[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed. \r\nAnd therefore is invalid. ]\r\nOr are you going to have another Tourette's episode?\r\n","author":"bad long night, last night, huh?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 15:20:39","modified":"2006-09-25 15:20:39","fileurl":""},{"id":179739,"heading":"you see, this is the deal","article":"There is only one possible material streaming ( I like it smooth but TW likes it chuncky ) from the buildings in question [ WTC 1& 2 ] and this is the precipitate from thermite which is incandescent iron ( that means very very very hot, Whizz) and is used routinely in industry.\r\nThis together with reported pools of liquid steel at their bases, support the hypothesis to the use of variations of thermite cutting packages and their attendant , visual yellow \/orange hot ( with the typical grey smoke this reaction produces) by products observed ( thanks for the link, Whizz )breaching the support structures.\r\nSo.\r\n'the planes did it' - not.\r\n\r\n","author":"can't do it","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 15:38:21","modified":"2006-09-25 15:38:21","fileurl":""},{"id":179740,"heading":"oh dear me I forgot the precious LINK","article":"My PRECIOUS. visual evidence of thermite. Good [ pat- pat ]\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\nAgain I must thank you. Ever considered a line of work a little less stressful and filled with bad nights?\r\nHow many time must I humiliate you and cause you to come back with a new nick, if not persona?\r\nDamn, are you a masochist?\r\n'the planes did it'","author":"My PRECIOUS","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 15:53:57","modified":"2006-09-25 15:53:57","fileurl":""},{"id":179760,"heading":"More reality for the teevee-addled","article":"Bullshitsky said: "So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed." \r\n\r\nOh, my take on the collapse pays WAY closer attention to the FULL SWEEP of OBSERVABLE details than your hysterical cherry-picked CD-'Borg fantasies. \r\n\r\nFor example, I've blown up your KEY LIE that the fires weren't hot enough to cause the frame to fail. You ran from that one like a rat with a roman candle shoved up its ass. This revealed that, despite all your posturing, you're a TECHNICAL IGNORAMUS on such matters, JUST LIKE ALL OF JONES' \/ GRIFFIN'S MINDLESS 'BORG FOLLOWERS (remember how you claimed to know metallurgy? That pose is toast now, too. Metallurgists use unique lingo not borrowed from physics) \r\n\r\nYour idea of "proving" controlled demolition would do any zionist proud: zeroing in on certain cherished video clips and photographs culled from 100,000 times as much material, each of which is way more ambiguous and problematic than you pretend when placed in the proper context of larger bodies of information. You ignore those larger bodies because you have no interest in them. Why let stupid trivial FACTS interfere with the exquisite cherry-strewn semantic confection Griffin has so perfectly arranged for you? \r\n\r\nYou haven't put ONE SCINTILLA of your own thought into your position on the towers' collapse. All you've done is sop up dogmas without question from people like Griffin, just like a good jumping monkey. That's cuz you're really just a typical no-brain American fuckhead -- of the anti- instead of the pro- variety, perhaps, but aside from this **attitude** variation just another corn-fed brain-dead teevee zombie. \r\n\r\nCommit to the Truth, wherever it may lead you? Fuck that! Politics is WAY more fun than stupid Truth!\r\n\r\nI've accepted that the planes probably caused the collapses NOT BECAUSE I WANTED TO, but because that hypothesis fits ALL the available facts better than any other, certainly better than yours. This is what commitment to truth really looks like. You just can't relate. \r\n\r\nAccepting that the planes caused the collapses does not undermine the larger questions AT ALL\r\n\r\nThe mob of mental slobs riding your band-wagon has already destroyed this movement, which in the post-Bush years is going to find itself in the UFO\/Chemtrails\/fake-Apollo dust bin of popular culture. It's YOUR mental slobbery as a "truth" activist that's opened the door to that, and your ideological opponents appreciate your help SOOO MUCH! You've handed them your own demise. Just remember this ten years from now\r\n\r\nThe ease with which people like Griffin reduce people like you to lurching mindless fanatics really is terrifying\r\n\r\nOh, and I addressed your "molten metal" idiocy:\r\n\r\n"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred, NEITHER DO YOU, AND NEITHER DOES JONES. The way a true scientist (as opposed to a bullshit freak like Jones) would know this is by TESTING A SAMPLE of that material. PERIOD" \r\n\r\nThat's solid. If you don't agree, so what? You're a weak-minded self-deceiving LIAR, and this is how political liars like you and Jones operate: You take a "fact" that nobody can confirm and is therefore USELESS as a forensic datum, spin it as an "absolute certainty," and make it a cornerstone of your dogmas. Nobody can confirm it, but neither can anyone conclusively **REFUTE** it, which makes it "unassailable" in a PURELY RHETORICAL sense. This is its entire value. Any loser bullshit artist swilling cheap shots in Any Bar, USA has an instinctive feel for this sort of opportunity. So do their elder siblings, aka "politicians"\r\n\r\nIn fact YOU DON'T KNOW what that stuff was, nobody does, nobody ever will, and you're a grotesque asshole when you CLAIM to "know," but why let that ruin your little political game?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 20:41:44","modified":"2006-09-25 20:41:44","fileurl":""},{"id":179761,"heading":"TW, grouchy, hungover and defeated.","article":"you managed to keep it under a thousand words.\r\nYou don't know what happened or why, but you know 'the planes did it'.\r\nGood point.","author":"but still making noise","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-25 21:47:25","modified":"2006-09-25 21:47:25","fileurl":""},{"id":179762,"heading":""You don't know what happened or why"","article":"Where'd you get that from, Punk? Cuz I'm not buying your crowd's INSUPPORTABLE assertions about the "molten metal?" Clue for Punk: it wasn't molten. You don't even know it was a metal. You don't know what the fuck it was. Following the lead of your hero Steve 'paging Dr. Bullshit' Jones, you're just a liar capitalizing on the perfect loophole that nobody else can possibly know either. \r\n\r\nYour entire argument in this thread has now dwindled down to this single isolated **forensically_WORTHLESS** bit of trivia. Oh wowza, what a menn-tull jye-yuntt-tuh you are-uh!! Yes, I'm so defeated! Woe is me!!\r\n\r\nMYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAA","author":"Lying some more, I see","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 00:19:59","modified":"2006-09-26 00:19:59","fileurl":""},{"id":179767,"heading":"A higher authority than "Alfred Korzybski"","article":""If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." \r\n\r\n- Ren\u00e9 Descartes","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 03:35:31","modified":"2013-11-11 00:44:27","fileurl":""},{"id":179770,"heading":""Where'd you get that from,"","article":"oh just this:\r\n""I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred, "\r\n\r\nThat's of course after trimming away the unsupportable ad hominums, equivocations, infantile understanding of chemistry, physics, industrial processes and lack of common sense. \r\n\r\nThat's where I got that.\r\nI guess you want more abuse at my hands You may proceed.\r\nRust never sleeps.\r\n","author":"from the Whizzard","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 04:01:48","modified":"2006-09-26 04:01:48","fileurl":""},{"id":179775,"heading":"okay, then -very bright paint -","article":"Was was it? \r\n http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\n\r\nOh that's right. It was CHUNCKY and therefore not a product of a thermite reaction. \r\nDo you really like your self enforced abuse here at the edge of my razor wit and reductive sarcasm? \r\nAnd aside from your Tourret's episodes of obligatory profanity, and as a personal inquiry about you as an organism, are you still feeling grouchy?","author":"'it wasn't molten.'","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 05:47:37","modified":"2006-09-26 05:47:37","fileurl":""},{"id":179785,"heading":"Wake up TW again, I'm not finished yet","article":""-remember how you claimed to know metallurgy? That pose is toast now, too. Metallurgists use unique lingo not borrowed from physics-"\r\n\r\nYou're funny.\r\nWhich discipline must I abandon to frame the discussion for your approval?\r\nAnother thing, Whizz, there are readers following this who most likely share these technologies and no one has come forward to interject any correction save for your 'opposing conjectures'. \r\nAs always, I wait for valid input.\r\nkeyword being valid. ","author":"worker","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 13:32:06","modified":"2006-09-26 13:32:06","fileurl":""},{"id":179793,"heading":"Punk asked: "Which discipline must I abandon..."","article":"Abandon? It's whether you actually KNOW the disciplines you CLAIM that's getting the acid-test here. **YOU** are the one who dropped the word "metallurgy." Yoss, it does sound SSEWWW impressive, dahlingk. Eww mwy, an '-urgy,' even, not merely an '-ology.' \r\n\r\nPity you're just a bong-bubbling marshmallow striking a pose. \r\n\r\nHere, Punk, I'll give you a big fat clue (cuz I know you STILL won't cough up the goods): the terminology for the phases of steel comes from the national culture that pioneered the science of steel\r\n\r\nAnd this...\r\n\r\n"...no one has come forward..." \r\n\r\n...is: \r\n\r\n1) untrue. "Johnk" DID chime in (see what that bong does to you?)\r\n\r\n2) the classic logical fallacy 'argumentum ad populum.' \r\n\r\nGo take a random survey. Ask 'the man on the street' if he agrees with the statement "Americans are essentially decent good-hearted people." 99+ percent will say "yes." Most of them will really mean it. \r\n\r\nThey're wrong. Americans as a group have been proving this statement false each and every year since 1608. They just don't want to know.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 17:02:55","modified":"2006-09-26 17:02:55","fileurl":""},{"id":179794,"heading":"ah good, you're back","article":"Punk asked: "Which discipline must I abandon..."[ come on Whizz, I could beat your but and stuff you into the garbage can you came from, Mr. Tuffbaby]\r\nby TW Monday, Sep. 25, 2006 at 1:02 PM \r\n\r\nAbandon? It's whether you actually KNOW the disciplines you CLAIM that's getting the acid-test here. **YOU** are the one who dropped the word "metallurgy." Yoss, it does sound SSEWWW impressive, dahlingk. Eww mwy, an '-urgy,' even, not merely an '-ology.'\r\n [ hmmmm. still nothing but squalling, from 'the planes did it', noise with nothing to back it up with ]\r\n\r\nPity you're just a bong-bubbling marshmallow striking a pose. \r\n[ nah, that couldn't be another empty ad hominum could it be?]\r\n\r\nHere, Punk, [ see above comment about being re-arranged ] I'll give you a big fat clue (cuz I know you STILL won't cough up the goods): the terminology for the phases of steel comes from the national culture that pioneered the science of steel [ and that would be France who pioneered gas welding, ]\r\n\r\nAnd this... \r\n\r\n"...no one has come forward..." \r\n\r\n...is: \r\n\r\n1) untrue. "Johnk" DID chime in (see what that bong does to you?) \r\n[ johnk is even more ignorant than you are about this and he at least admitted it if you'll scroll up and read it this time ]\r\n2) the classic logical fallacy 'argumentum ad populum.' \r\n\r\nGo take a random survey. Ask 'the man on the street' if he agrees with the statement "Americans are essentially decent good-hearted people." 99+ percent will say "yes." Most of them will really mean it. [ then there are the vicious little rabid psycho -weasels like you]\r\n\r\nThey're wrong. Americans as a group have been proving this statement false each and every year since 1608. They just don't want to know.\r\n[oh contrare, many of them do wish to know and that's why you're squatting right here to 'gatekeep'.]\r\n++++++for a rehash after the food fight.\r\n[-What about the molten metal which I explained: \r\nIsn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light. \r\nand \r\nCannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.] \r\n\r\n[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ] \r\n\r\n"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred" \r\n\r\n[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed. \r\nAnd therefore is invalid. ]\r\nand the graciously provided video from Whizz which shows thermite tell tales.\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\n\r\n","author":"Side Notes from Reality","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 17:18:58","modified":"2006-09-26 17:18:58","fileurl":""},{"id":179798,"heading":""...Isn't liquid aluminum..."","article":"Who said anything about "liquid aluminum"? Where? Show me?? \r\n\r\nOooh-ho-ho, that's right, your bullshit hero \/ 'Borg puppetmaster STEPHEN JONES is always the one throwing out the 'molten aluminum' red herring at this juncture. Yes, this is YET ANOTHER THING I was thinking of when I called him a pathological liar. \r\n\r\nClue for Punk: 'burning aluminum' and 'molten aluminum' are D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T\r\n\r\nAnother clue for Punk: teevee cameras have defined your entire "reality" for you, I know, but they're still not **scientific instruments.** That footage is not a reliable record of either the substance's brightness OR its emission spectrum. Teevee cameras manipulate both datums automatically to give the cud-chomping cattle in their living rooms the purdiest pitcher \r\n\r\nWow, you really lyuv this word "process," don't yew? How come, dahlingk? It's not nearly as chic as 'metallurgy'","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 17:53:37","modified":"2006-09-26 17:53:37","fileurl":""},{"id":179799,"heading":"burning aluminum' and 'molten aluminum'","article":"If not, there is help for adult illiteracy.\r\nburning aluminum' and 'molten aluminum' neither of which is possible from the visual evidence not evidence pulled from your nether regions.\r\nI said molten iron \/ steel.\r\nNot bright paint, not silly putty.\r\nEvidence of thermite use.","author":"can you read?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 17:58:27","modified":"2006-09-26 17:58:27","fileurl":""},{"id":179800,"heading":"More klews for Punk","article":""oh contrare"\r\n\r\nHmm. What language is this? \r\n\r\n'Whiz' and 'chunky' have only one z and one c, respectively","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 17:58:49","modified":"2006-09-26 17:58:49","fileurl":""},{"id":179801,"heading":"Punk: "Evidence of thermite use." And you know this ... how?","article":"Ooh-ho-ho, that's right: your 'Borg Puppetmaster STEPHEN JONES told you so. PERIOD.","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 18:02:31","modified":"2006-09-26 18:02:31","fileurl":""},{"id":179802,"heading":"now I must constrain my art?","article":"If that was your summation, than I guess you are MT.[doesn't know chemistry ( although I know C Engineers who say they aren't sure ), physics or how to conclude a thesis.\r\nThe material in the video Isn't liquid aluminum because it would be BURNING FIERCELY at that temperature and heat light. \r\nand \r\nCannot be produced by any *process* you have brought forward by 'the planes did it' theory. Period.] \r\n\r\n[ and from the keyboard of Whizz. ] \r\n\r\n"I don't know what that "molten metal" was or why it occurred" \r\n\r\n[ So your model of 'the planes did it' cannot fit the phenomena observed. \r\nAnd therefore is invalid. ] \r\nand the graciously provided video from Whizz which shows thermite tell tales. \r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite \r\n","author":"bite me baby","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 18:02:59","modified":"2006-09-26 18:02:59","fileurl":""},{"id":179803,"heading":"A point you seem to have missed","article":""Your entire argument in this thread has now dwindled down to this single isolated **forensically_WORTHLESS** bit of trivia." \r\n\r\nIs this all yoo got? Cuz frankly you're starting to bore me","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 18:07:05","modified":"2006-09-26 18:07:05","fileurl":""},{"id":179804,"heading":"oh you mean the 'loophole'","article":"any deviation in a hypothesis negates the said hypothesis, and a different one must be constructed.\r\nYou lose.\r\n","author":"big enough to drive your ass through","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 18:10:59","modified":"2006-09-26 18:10:59","fileurl":""},{"id":179805,"heading":"I'm going for lunch","article":"So provide some entertainment for me for when I return.","author":"I'll be BACK","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-26 18:13:45","modified":"2006-09-26 18:13:45","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/sheepdogishungry.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/sheepdogishungry.jpg"}},{"id":179806,"heading":"Oh look, punk just proclaimed what reality is","article":""The material in the video Isn't liquid aluminum because..." \r\n\r\nOh yes, I'm sure this is absolutely solid information (coming from a CD-'Borg-bot whose favorite canards have been so demolished at this point that he doesn't even mention them any more, but he **STILL** won't stop to wonder if maybe he was fed a line of bullshit to begin with) \r\n\r\nYes, do tell. We trust you implicitly","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 18:17:40","modified":"2006-09-26 18:17:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179807,"heading":"that's pathetic, Whizz","article":"Whizz can't deal with chemistry, physics, work practices or a little thermite between ad homonims and puffery.\r\n'just a tiny itty bitty loophole' Like evidence of thermite.\r\nCome on that should be easy for you and your team to pull at least something out that isn't silly or crazy. Something that 'the planes did it' would account for.","author":"Whizz is MT","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 19:43:15","modified":"2006-09-26 19:43:15","fileurl":""},{"id":179820,"heading":"What thermite? Where? Prove it","article":"See there: you can't. Neither can 'Borgmaster Jones. \r\n\r\nThen again, nobody can *disprove* it either, for the exact same reasons. How perfect for you! Now you can ride out any storm. The "hologram planes," the "no planes into the Pentagon" thing -- those trojan horses didn't catch on so good, but this CD thing is GOLDEN!! Yeah, you're gonna ride this one right into the sunset of total whack-job obscurity. How brilliant of you!\r\n\r\nChemistry? Physics? You've shown me up on these? When was that? I clearly remember YOU humiliating yourself repeatedly on this front or (more prudently) developing instant amnesia after certain technical points OF MINE tore your bullshit to shreds, but I don't remember it ever going the other way. Maybe you should show us. \r\n\r\nStill waiting for the names of those phases, Mr. Metallurgy -- bwaw-haw!","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 21:37:40","modified":"2006-09-26 21:37:40","fileurl":""},{"id":179823,"heading":"Let me amend that...","article":"CD 'Borgmaster Jones can't prove it, but that won't stop him from issuing his signature PSEUDO-"proof," which will more than satisfy his mindless 'Borg following. It's already in the works. He's got his Magic Sample of "thermate precipitate" that he pulled out of his ass, which is "sulfur-contaminated iron," which """""PROVES""""" -- did you catch that -- "*"*"*"PROVES"*"*"*" that sulfur-enriched thermite aka 'thermate' was used. \r\n\r\nOf course, Jones, in possession as he is of higher-than-average scientific knowledge, knows perfectly well that it's not that simple. Steel is nearly pure iron, so the structural steel of the building could well be the source of his 'iron.' Meanwhile, there's this ubiquitous building material called "drywall," or "sheetrock," or "GYPSUM board." Its main ingredient is plaster, which consists mainly of the mineral GYPSUM, aka hydrated calcium SULFATE\r\n\r\nCaSO4\u00b72H2O\r\n\r\nSo in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird thing to pull out of the pot\r\n\r\nAny undergrad chemistry major worth a damn would spot this possible source of noise and formally account for it in any such investigative treatise\r\n\r\nLet's see if Jones does so\r\n\r\nAnybody want to place any bets?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 22:16:27","modified":"2013-11-11 00:44:27","fileurl":""},{"id":179824,"heading":"incredible- unbelievable","article":"amazing-\r\n"So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird thing to pull out of the pot "\r\n\r\nAnd that has what to do with 'the planes did it'?\r\nnothing.\r\n","author":"Heh heh","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 22:36:44","modified":"2006-09-26 22:36:44","fileurl":""},{"id":179825,"heading":"here is the answer","article":""at temperatures sufficient to melt both" dry wall ( a fire proof material used for interior walls ) and steel ...\r\nI see you really did pull something from your nether regions.","author":"to a question","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-26 22:42:52","modified":"2006-09-26 22:42:52","fileurl":""},{"id":179858,"heading":"Even you CD simpletons should be able to answer that one!","article":""And that has what to do with 'the planes did it'?" \r\n\r\nI'm making a prediction about the FAKE science typical of those who claim "the planes DIDN'T do it." That's what. \r\n\r\nToo hard for you?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 03:16:02","modified":"2006-09-27 03:16:02","fileurl":""},{"id":179860,"heading":"Destined for stardom","article":"The Beatles: "happiness" ... is a warm gun\r\n\r\nThe Punk: "science" ... is a well-packed bowl\r\n\r\nbang, bang, shoot, shoot","author":"koo-koo-ka-choo","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 03:21:07","modified":"2006-09-27 03:21:07","fileurl":""},{"id":179861,"heading":"no Whizz no no no...","article":"Do you know the temperature required to MELT sheet rock ( drywall ) and steel ( trying not to laugh as it interferes with my typing ) and then 'mix for three weeks' to produce absolute but pure BULL SHIT?\r\n\r\nAnd that has what to do with this video??\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\n\r\nTell me all about it.","author":"here's a good one","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 03:24:48","modified":"2006-09-27 03:24:48","fileurl":""},{"id":179862,"heading":"Correcting the record","article":"Punk re 'the man on the street': "[Most of them will really mean it] -- then there are the vicious little rabid psycho -weasels like you" \r\n\r\nNaw, I wouldn't play politics with such a question\r\n\r\n*I* NEVER do that\r\n\r\nI would do what I always do: say exactly what I think","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 03:43:18","modified":"2006-09-27 03:43:18","fileurl":""},{"id":179865,"heading":"well what do you think of this?","article":"sis you really type this?\r\n"-So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both, and "sulfur-contaminated iron" is not going to be an especially weird -"\r\nAnd that's from your own thoughts and not some scrabble from someone else ?\r\n\r\nTell us more.\r\n","author":"oh yeah","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 03:49:43","modified":"2006-09-27 03:49:43","fileurl":""},{"id":179866,"heading":"What do I think of it? But that **IS** my thoughts","article":"You said so yourself: \r\n\r\n"...that's from your own thoughts..." \r\n\r\ndam yoo dum!\r\n\r\nPack another bowl, Scooby","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 04:05:56","modified":"2006-09-27 04:05:56","fileurl":""},{"id":179868,"heading":"Oh, hey, I found something precious!","article":"Here's a physics professor who has as little patience for bullshit as myself who has taken time out of his busy life to address the weird bong-bubbling "science" of the CD crowd\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.uwgb.edu\/dutchs\/PSEUDOSC\/911NutPhysics.HTM\r\n\r\nHe's a serious student of 'Science, Pseudoscience, and Irrationalism' and has put together a huge well written site about same\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.uwgb.edu\/dutchs\/pscindx.htm","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 04:14:53","modified":"2006-09-27 04:14:53","fileurl":""},{"id":179869,"heading":"The point here (since you're sure to miss it)...","article":"...being that most any physics PhD will have what it takes to see through your system of fallacies \r\n\r\n-- assuming he doesn't have some fucked-up hidden agenda like Jones","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 04:21:11","modified":"2006-09-27 04:21:11","fileurl":""},{"id":179886,"heading":"too bad they haven't","article":"yep, 'this professor says this' and since only *your* scientists, physicists, chemist etc. can be valid ( since you have nothing yourself) I refuse to argue with one of your freak reference sites.\r\nIt's much more, shall we say instantly gratifying, to watch you dissemble.","author":"Whizz is weak","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 11:36:43","modified":"2006-09-27 11:36:43","fileurl":""},{"id":179887,"heading":"correction \/ error","article":"did you really type this? \r\n"-So in other words you take lots of drywall and lots of steel and you stir them together real good and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both,-"\r\nNow how does jet fuel ( forget the charcoal and wet jute muses having nothing to do with anything, even if johnk said it) provide the 'melting temperatures' for DRYWALL and STEEL?\r\nLord have mercy, you are desperate.\r\nI would need a big bong of blond Lebanese, to try and understand that.","author":"for drill","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 11:45:57","modified":"2006-09-27 11:45:57","fileurl":""},{"id":179922,"heading":"um- Sheepdog","article":"I'm not TW\r\n\r\nI have been ghosting here while awaiting a reply to my email request on the question of whether it's possible to register here in order to prevent nick spoofing and I noticed the "whizz" label popped up which lead me to this thread to see you confusing TW with me..\r\n\r\nAlthough he does likewise like in Arkansas and I have to admit I share his views on most of the issues I've seen him post about on here, I will say I do *not* share his views on the WTC (especially WTC-7) subject\r\n\r\nTo jog your memory you may recall I was one of the very first people to say demolition as I watched the towers implode on TV 5 years ago...\r\n\r\nI am securely registered on Arkansas IMC BTW - as hex as usual - where I saw some more of your luxefaire spam voted down to hidden :)\r\n\r\nas well as your attempts here as "x" and "b" continuing to be likewise..\r\n\r\nI don't know who TW is, but rest assured he's not me - I wouldn't insult johnk or get into a debate about misogyny with "tia" and\/or becky for example. and while he knows a bit about the hard sciences I wouldn't consider him an actual scientist based on what's he's posted above.\r\n\r\nI do agree with him though on most of the issues he's posted about over the last several months - it's nice to know there's other people in Arkansas with a brain :)\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 14:57:34","modified":"2006-09-27 14:57:34","fileurl":""},{"id":179924,"heading":"oh sure...","article":"How coincidental to 'show up' and put things straight.\r\nGive me a break.","author":"wont wash","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 15:05:58","modified":"2006-09-27 15:05:58","fileurl":""},{"id":179932,"heading":"coincidental ?","article":"I told you why\r\n\r\n1.) I'm waiting for a reply to my question about registering *after being invited back to continue posting here via email* as I don't intend to do so without a way to prevent nick spoofing\r\n\r\n2.) your "whizz" *just* showed up in the comments section and reading this thread shows you're confusing him with me\r\n\r\n\r\nand how do you explain our opposite views regarding WTC-9\/11 ? (specifically I don't want you - or via your confusion - other people to think I don't think it was demolition as - again- I was one of the first people to say exactly that - even as I was watching the buildings implode on TV I thought *right then* they appeared to be)\r\n\r\nwhile I don't share your more outlandish views about the details on them, *I do agree with you* that they were - remember all the data I've posted about video footage and *seismic measurements*, the molten puddles of steel, the framework - the central columns - how *over engineered* these buildings were (again especially WTC-7), the "pull it" comment on PBS, the fact that no steel framed building has ever collapsed from fire - even major fires lasting days - before or since, etc\r\n\r\nplease try to remember all the data I've posted on this - all opposed to what TW is saying regarding the buildings themselves (but not foreknowledge like the millions of dollars of *put options* paper trail that was buried)\r\n\r\nI'm not becky, tia, TW, JA, toady, "smash the left" or any of the other people you've accused me of being..\r\n\r\nI emailed this and the Arkansas IMC *detailed* and specific information to varify my identity and location and *REQUESTED* registration here and obtained registration on Arkansas IMC as a member of a private email-list (audio)\r\n\r\nI intend to set up an IMC here since I now have paid commercial web hosting along with a permanent website for the station...\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 15:57:11","modified":"2006-09-27 15:57:11","fileurl":""},{"id":179986,"heading":"To hex","article":"WTC-7 is a different subject ENTIRELY. I think it *was* blown up. It's the best way to explain the way it fell, and there's also what Silverberg is reliably reported to have said: "pull it"\r\n\r\n"WTC-7 was blown up so therefore the towers were blown up too" is YET ANOTHER FALLACY in the CD system of bullshit. There is no automatic relationship here\r\n\r\nI also don't agree with everything Prof. Dutch says about 9-11 (he seems to dismiss the inside job premise altogether), and nor are my opinions based on his or on any other "authority." I just brought him up because he VERY closely corroborates my own conclusions about CD, which pretty much blows up dog's claim that my science is weak\r\n\r\nStephen Jones is a world-class quack. His record and his "science" speak for themselves. As for the rest of the 9-11 Politics leadership, they just doesn't know what they're talking about. This is not a subject everybody has a good head for, even if they're smart, and in any case these guys are WAY more interested in POLITICAL agendas than in the truth of what happened that day, I promise you. \r\n\r\nThey're essentially politicians. Nobody has more contempt for Truth than a politician\r\n\r\nI'm dismayed to see the entire movement make this idea their main battle engine. I'm telling you this is a grave mistake. Whatever credibility 9-11 Truth might have had among serious scientists and engineers before, this is closing that door forever. Half of that damage has been done just by Stephen Jones attaching his notorious name to the movement. \r\n\r\nThe towers don't have to have been blown up, dammit! The planes themselves causing the collapses doesn't change anything for LIHOP or MIHOP. The whole movement has been diverted into this one stupid issue, and it's a sewer of bullshit","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 21:13:33","modified":"2006-09-27 21:13:33","fileurl":""},{"id":179989,"heading":"Hey 'dog","article":"I'm done with you for now. Punk. I'll look you up in another ten years so I can grind your face in what you did to a movement that could have been more than a pile of dead-end bullshit","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 21:16:28","modified":"2006-09-27 21:16:28","fileurl":""},{"id":179998,"heading":"I was done w\/you","article":"But I would like to 'meat' you later.\r\nHealth insurance all paid up, huh?","author":"a week ago","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 21:36:01","modified":"2006-09-27 21:36:01","fileurl":""},{"id":180001,"heading":"WTC 1 & 2","article":"well while it's pretty clear about WTC-7 the main problem with 1 & 2 is that the evidence was wisked away and the investigation was a "half-baked farce" as the fire department put it\r\n\r\nSince there's not enough data to determine what happened (this was intentional to make people waste years trying to figure it out and polarize us - divide & conquer while questions that could be answered (like the put options) are quietly buried\r\n\r\nBut then again we don't have to agree on everything - the world would be pretty boring if we did\r\n\r\n\r\nSheepdog isn't a punk BTW - he's old, ~ 50 or so, extremely paranoid and loves flake subjects like "ENMOD", "HAARP" and "chemtrails"\r\n\r\nyou shouldn't expect to hold a conversation with him since at any point or turn in a discussion he'll fly into a tantrum where anyone who disagrees with him instantly becomes an agent and\/or the same person "out to get him"\r\n\r\nWhile I and other's have posted pictures of ourselves and where we live, have emailed IMC's with info to try to become more involved & trusted and are capable of saying sorry and being wrong sheepdog has done done of these things\r\n\r\nAnd if you ask him why he'll fall back on the 'ol paranoia-for-all-occasions reasoning and at best post pictures of - sheepdogs (actual)\r\n\r\nApparently he was abused as a child by his father and has very serious issues regarding trust and forming normal relationships according to what he's claimed in the past at least. while he may prefer to say it in more enamoring terms this is basicly what he's said...\r\n\r\nIt's all a matter of "kill or be killed" and "shoot first and ask questions later" type of mindset\r\n\r\nI'd hate to be his neighbor...\r\n\r\n\r\nOur neighbors are pretty nice - they're Vietnamese - very nice, polite & quiet, very respectful..\r\nWe also have a neighbor in the back apartment who's having trouble with drinking and keeping his head above water so we've been helping him out - we're trying to get people who move in back there to hang around longer insted of only staying a few month's then leaving as has been happening so far..\r\n\r\nThe neighbors gave us a huge rooster which we built a cage for - here's the pictures ;\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/mirror\/photo08\/index.html\r\n\r\nand the new cage\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/mirror\/photo04\/index.html\r\n\r\nI operate a pirate radio station which plays classic rock, all the details here ;\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/about\/index.html\r\n\r\nand some close-up's of the antenna here ;\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/mirror\/photo03\/index.html\r\n(scroll down a bit)\r\n\r\nI wanted to know if you're in this area, if so you can pick up the signal, covers most of town..\r\n\r\nfeel free to e-mail me for further details -\r\n\r\nkeli1041fm@yahoo.com\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 21:57:57","modified":"2006-09-27 21:57:57","fileurl":""},{"id":180002,"heading":"no evidence=Bull Shit c\/o Hex","article":"No one in their right mind would post personal information to you rabid weasels. Or visit your web sites.\r\nBut you still are very fond of lying and w\/o evidence and we should not believe a single word from a psychoboy who couldn't find his ass with both hands.\r\nWaiting for EVIDENCE of your Whizz like pronouncements.\r\n","author":"More Bull from psychoboy","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 22:05:47","modified":"2006-09-27 22:05:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180004,"heading":""Or visit your web sites."","article":"it's not "my" website - it's a commercial hosting service.\r\n\r\nI have no direct access to it - I have to FTP the website files to it. There's nothing there - no javascript, no cookies - nothing\r\n\r\njust plain-jane HTML \r\n\r\nsee - your paranoia serves as a cover for any situation to get out of doing anything\r\n\r\nI'm sorry, I've been wrong sometimes\r\n\r\nlet's see you say that..\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 22:22:19","modified":"2006-09-27 22:22:19","fileurl":""},{"id":180006,"heading":" I've been wrong sometimes","article":"see? I erred again.\r\nNot about you though, and you're dancing again.","author":"I make ytping errors all the time","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 22:26:43","modified":"2006-09-27 22:26:43","fileurl":""},{"id":180010,"heading":""Health insurance all paid up, huh?"","article":"Oh, Punk, *don't* go there \r\n\r\nThere wouldn't be any swinging dick contest, nor would health insurance be an issue\r\n\r\nYou would have to kill me with maximum haste ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 22:53:44","modified":"2006-09-27 22:53:44","fileurl":""},{"id":180011,"heading":"I wouldn't worry","article":"sheepdog's pretty whimpy - and actually you're right, he *is* a punk - the wayback machine has his number\r\n\r\nwhoops - I just checked - they *used* to - he's deleted the picture but IMC still has it -\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/uploads\/2005\/06\/billder.jpgprlcu5.jpg\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:21:43","modified":"2006-09-27 23:21:43","fileurl":""},{"id":180012,"heading":"Glad to make your acquaintance, Hex","article":"I'm also a radio enthusiast. Shortwave is my bag. If you've never checked it out, you should. It's a direct uncensored pipeline to what pariah states like Cuba (6,000 kHz) and Iran (7,253 kHz) have to say\r\n\r\nI'm also a chicken owner. Chickens are great fun to have around. If you get one of the older semi-wild breeds (e.g., Silver Phoenix) they're a LOT smarter than they're reputed to be. I must say, rooster's are not my favorite. \r\n\r\nI'll be dropping you a line. Since 'dog is trying to manipulate me into shying away, I figure you must be four-square","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:28:39","modified":"2006-09-27 23:28:39","fileurl":""},{"id":180013,"heading":"Hex\/TW same shit- same asshole","article":"To the twisted freak we know as Smash the left.\r\nA very few have tried. They lost.\r\nYes I'm OLD. Something you may never be able to say considering the alternative. Still can cripple you just from reading your crap. With one hand.\r\nDon't mess with old people.","author":"k'","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:30:00","modified":"2006-09-27 23:30:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180022,"heading":"radio Havana","article":"yeah I listen to radio Havana and the atomic clock sometimes - have a small shortwave radio sitting here on the work table..\r\n\r\nWe ended up with that rooster because a friend of the neighbors had 2 of them in a burlap sack when it was really hot a few months ago and one was dead - this one was nearly dead so we put him in the bathtub and sprayed him with cool water and gave him some special bird food we make for the other birds \r\n\r\n(4 Blue Jays, 2 Robins and a Starling)\r\n\r\nI have about a dozen Pigeons too including 2 really tame ones..\r\n\r\nWe're in town so we're not really supposed to have livestock but 1 rooster doesn't really matter.. The neighbor's said they're going to get a hen for him but he's so big I wonder what hen would be big enough for him. It's starting to turn cold here so we're about to winterize his cage - add a small heater to keep his water bowl from freezing and heat his box, close\r\n it in more & add a flap. maybe add a layer of gravel or sand because that part of the yard tends to flood in heavy rain too..\r\nI've used his crowing as part of a station jingle "good morning good morning from rock FM" too\r\n\r\nI didn't want to state publicly the location so I'm looking forward to hearing from you - the yahoo email isn't my main one anymore, I have a "real" e-mail account along with the hosting service this and the Arkansas IMC knows about.. - the yahoo is pretty much a throw-away account at this point - spam is coming in on it lately\r\n\r\nif you're in range (and like rock) it will be cool - you'll be the first IMC person on here to actually receive the signal that I know of since there is no IMC in this town and the town where the IMC is has little activity regarding radio (there's sorta sometimes a station there that transmits on 88.1 as I recall only for a matter of hours on weekends occasionally - I've been on the air continuously for over 8 years here, though I used to be on 90.7 for the first 3 years)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:47:59","modified":"2006-09-27 23:47:59","fileurl":""},{"id":180023,"heading":"Notetaker","article":"THIS IS WHO THE ZIONIST PROPAGANDA NUTS REALLY ARE\r\nby shetizdayen israel Wednesday, Jul. 19, 2006 at 2:02 PM\r\n\r\n TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THESE FROTHING AT THE MOUTH RIGHT WING LUNATIC NUTS LOSE IT WHEN NO ONE WILL BELIEVE THEIR ZIONIST LIES. FUCK ALL FIVE OF YOU NUTCASES. HERE IS WHO YOU ARE. TRUTH IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE.\r\n\r\nZionists lie and threaten because they have to, history is not on their side. Neither is truth\r\n\r\nSee! HIm and his frothing at the mouth dunce-cap crew have plenty of little quips. In fact, here's some of their little zionest-I'm having a meltdown quips:\r\n\r\nSchtarkerYid\r\nby JA, Exactly when and where? Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 11:14 AM\r\n\r\nJA, Exactly when and where can I find you on the streets of Berkeley passing out candy? I'll meet you there. I have some new toys that I'd like to show you.\r\nSchtarkerYid\r\nby Its just a matter of time now Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 11:09 AM\r\n\r\nIts just a matter of time now. The crazed Islamic supremicists and their appologists have, once again attacked Israel, essentially demanding war. Israel has no choice but to fight this new war with devastating effectiveness. After that, the shattered smoking ruins of Hamas and Hezbollah may one day wish to discuss peace. HaShem will deliver the enemies of Israel into the hands of the students of his Torah.\r\n\r\nOn the decline of\r\nby self-righteousness Thursday, Jul. 13, 2006 at 8:07 AM\r\n\r\nSigh. Of course, SJ, if JA were to die, I'd pass out candy on the streets of Berkeley. (Although in his case, fruits and nuts might be more approrpriate)\r\n\r\nChazack, chazack v'nit chazack.\r\n\r\nHet lunch boy\r\nby Scapegoated Jew Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 4:48 PM\r\n\r\nHopefully the banker you met with today won't approve your loan. Maybe only a rough forceful rape by another man, possibly a whitey, will straighten your perversions out.\r\nYou're enjoying your copy of the last Der Stuermer issue on your desk?","author":"zionist meltdowns","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:53:07","modified":"2006-09-27 23:53:07","fileurl":""},{"id":180024,"heading":"Hex- quick question","article":"Just wondering","author":"are you our Arkansas vistor "Lunchbox&q","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-27 23:56:10","modified":"2006-09-27 23:56:10","fileurl":""},{"id":180026,"heading":"so... 'the planes did it' not","article":"He might be better at German than me but he sucks when it comes to the JFK assassination and 9-11\r\nA moral coward who fears his protection will be withdrawn and he would be thrown to the dogs when his limited use expires.\r\n\r\nThere are a lot of phony gate keepers posing as 'the opposition and the good guys'\r\nRight?","author":"Chomsky, bite me","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 00:04:16","modified":"2006-09-28 00:04:16","fileurl":""},{"id":180027,"heading":"see what paranoia does","article":"not only has it got you spamming chemtrails on any IMC you can get by with doing it to, it turns you into a hostile self-alienating useless distraction\r\n\r\nI've provided the links that show pictures of everything I'm talking about - but nooooo let's just put our hands over our eyes and scream\r\n\r\nYour powers of observation have taken a real dive if you can't tell the difference between TW's writings and mine\r\n\r\nwe don't even agree on WTC 1 & 2 for example but to you there's no difference since all you see is *what you want to see* which is the world as it revolves around you\r\n\r\nmaybe the chemtrails *have* taken a toll as agents stalk you driving around and aircraft "just barely miss you" with their "lethal aerosols" as they try to "take you out" and "control your mind"\r\n\r\nI guess they have :)\r\n\r\n\r\nre: "lunchbox"\r\n\r\nno - I'm hex, always have been *I have never posted as anyone else*, this and the Arkansas IMC are aware of my personal details - they have my private e-mail, real name, location and radio station details - they know *exactly* where the station is..\r\n\r\nall these sock puppets and games with the different nicks is BS and you will not see this happening on the Arkansas IMC as I am *registered* there and no one can spoof me\r\n\r\nI'm hoping this IMC will impliment this feature too which is why I'm here..\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 00:14:12","modified":"2006-09-28 00:14:12","fileurl":""},{"id":180028,"heading":"from an OLD guy","article":"hey, I got an idea!\r\nWhy doesn't 'TW' or right hemisphere, have a discussion with 'Hex', or left hemisphere, about the visual evidence which actually does have measurable metrics concerning color\/heat light data and determine the possibility of THERMITE having been used to cut various multiple points on the WTC 1& 2 immediately before the 'global collapse' of each structure? blink blink...\r\nhere's a link that was provided to show evidence of CHUNCKY incandescent material flowing from the corner of the building! blink blink...\r\nCan you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? blink blink...\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\nlike aircraft fuel or damp jute and nylon carpets in a low temp fire as supported by the presence of people standing by these 'raging fires'?\r\n\r\nI love a good romp. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Chomsky - bite - me","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 00:27:53","modified":"2006-09-28 00:27:53","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/sheepdogishungry.jpgpz7oae.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/sheepdogishungry.jpgpz7oae.jpg"}},{"id":180029,"heading":"why yes as a matter of fact","article":"sheepdog you're going to shit when you see pictures of us as two different people\r\n\r\n*I've already linked to mine* - http:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/mirror\/photo04\/Photo020.jpg\r\n\r\nbut wait ! I know - photoshop - of course\r\n\r\n\r\nthermite - too slow, no explosions, the columns were vertical...\r\n\r\ncutting charges - perfect for the job - used in WTC-7 too, make explosions that witnesses heard\r\n\r\n\r\ndo you believe everything some flake tells you ?\r\n\r\n\r\nthe carpets - charcoal, too slow, fire was oxygen starved, would need widespread infernal conditions substained for many hours to even think about weakening such large\/thick steel columns\r\n\r\nfiremen reported fires were almost out, pictures of people standing in entry holes\r\n\r\nbuildings fell at free-fall rate, radio\/TV tower started falling *first* - was directly tied to central core..\r\n\r\nWTC-7 did likewise - penthouse started falling first - also fell at free-fall rate\r\n\r\n\r\nthe thermite issue is just yet another distraction for the easyly distracted\r\n\r\nare you easyly distracted ?\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 01:03:08","modified":"2006-09-28 01:03:08","fileurl":""},{"id":180030,"heading":"WTF are you saying?","article":"what is this?\r\n\r\n"thermite - too slow, no explosions, the columns were vertical.."\r\n\r\nIs that some kind of tech talk or is it a rap line?\r\nThese were not the little thermite in flower pot demos. \r\nThese most likely [ well duh ] were inside the building and breached the outer surface so the true center of reaction was not visible and only the by-products were evident.\r\n\r\nAgain, weak.","author":"Chomsky bites me","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 01:19:18","modified":"2006-09-28 01:19:18","fileurl":""},{"id":180031,"heading":"we must agree or I'm an agent","article":""Chomsky bites me"\r\n\r\nhe does ?\r\n\r\n\r\nwhatever you say there - you watch a video and you're an expert\r\n\r\nI've only made thermite, made fireworks, flash powder, and did experiments with these materials, only used cutting torches, only made explosions\r\n\r\nwhat would I know ?\r\n\r\n ","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 01:26:03","modified":"2006-09-28 01:26:03","fileurl":""},{"id":180033,"heading":"So what?","article":"'what do I know' good question.\r\n\r\nI did all that shit in the scouts. So what?\r\nThe town of Altadena should be glad they're still there. And my older brothers were much worse.\r\nStill have not provided anything but your peculiar brand of distraction to the following comment :\r\nahem.\r\n\r\nwait for it. \r\n\r\nhere it is\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nahem...\r\nwhat about the visual evidence which actually does have measurable metrics concerning color\/heat light data and determine the possibility of THERMITE having been used to cut various multiple points on the WTC 1& 2 immediately before the 'global collapse' of each structure? blink blink... \r\nhere's a link that was provided to show evidence of CHUNCKY incandescent material flowing from the corner of the building! blink blink... \r\nCan you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? blink blink... \r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite \r\nlike aircraft fuel or damp jute and nylon carpets in a low temp fire as supported by the presence of people standing by these 'raging fires'? \r\n","author":"Chomsky bites","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 01:38:36","modified":"2006-09-28 01:38:36","fileurl":""},{"id":180034,"heading":"sorry [for you ] I'll make it simple","article":"here just answer this. We don't want you confused again.\r\n\r\nCan you guess what this material is any how it could have produced by any known process? .\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite \r\n\r\nRain coat on.","author":"Chomsky -bites-","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 01:47:35","modified":"2006-09-28 01:47:35","fileurl":""},{"id":180044,"heading":"youtube is such a hassle","article":"I saved it, loaded it into VLC and converted it to mpeg\r\n\r\nbut anyway it appears to be aluminium melting & burning, which would be expected from the fire right above it\r\n\r\n(I've burnt aluminium and that's what it burns like - thermite reacts *much hotter* and iron is part of it's intended use since iron it'self burns along with it - *white hot* with a hell of alot of sparks due to the release of gasses in the molten metal - this does not appear to be thermite or iron\/steel, (it's not hot enough) but at that distance\/with that low quality of video no one can say what it is for sure - *chemical analysis is required* and the evidence was taken away)\r\n\r\nalso that's just a tiny part of the whole structure and *very far away from the central core where the real load bearing is*\r\n\r\nlike I said - a distraction for the easyly distracted\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 06:34:17","modified":"2006-09-28 06:34:17","fileurl":""},{"id":180055,"heading":"you burnt aluminium?","article":"and at what color was it [ the molten material not the flame ] when it began to burn?\r\nI contend that if it was aluminum, it would be burning at that temperature and the visible by products would be visible as a smoke signature during the incandescent portion of its fall..\r\n\r\nyour turn.","author":"How did you burn it?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 11:54:35","modified":"2006-09-28 11:54:35","fileurl":""},{"id":180056,"heading":"Aluminium fires and the British Navy","article":"The Brits had to abandon aluminium hulls due to fires.\r\n- The confusion is related to the US and British Navies abandoning aluminium after several fires in the 1970s involving ships that had aluminium superstructures-\r\nhttp:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/HMS_Sheffield_(D80)\r\n\r\n","author":"Techworx","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 12:04:03","modified":"2006-09-28 12:04:03","fileurl":""},{"id":180058,"heading":"I made another mistake!","article":"see that? I fucked that up totally.\r\nI meant superstructures. \r\nAluminium burns. It's an 'ium' metal. ","author":"Did I say HULLS?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 12:34:52","modified":"2006-09-28 12:34:52","fileurl":""},{"id":180065,"heading":"what kind of "flash powder" was it ?","article":""you burnt aluminium ? \/ what color was it [ the molten material not the flame ] when it began to burn?"\r\n\r\nIt doesn't burn easyly but when it does, it starts burning at the edges and kinda "puffs" with oxide which encrusts it.\r\n\r\nMagnesium and Aluminium\/Magnesium alloys burn much better - they both give off a characteristic white smoke (oxide particles)\r\n\r\nLead also burns BTW - again at red\/orange heat, also crusts and gives off oxide smoke\r\n\r\nThe main thing about Aluminium is that when it's freshly exposed to air and especially finely divided it can burn much easyer then\r\n\r\nI've used both Aluminium and Magnesium powders and "filings" (the dust from sawing Magnesium rod) to make flash powder\r\n\r\nYou claimed to make flash powder in the "boyscouts" however it requires Potassium or Sodium Chlorate which is a very dangerous compound - they wouldn't let kids play with it since it can start combusting spontaneously in contact with organic material - I only had access to it in the lab and took a big risk carrying some home in a paper towel - it could have started burning in my pocket !\r\n\r\nI used to make fireworks *every year*, along with gunpowder, fuse cord and nitrocellulose string (I had the required concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids)\r\n\r\nI made different types of thermite - some Aluminium based some Iron oxide based and in every case it threw a hell of a lot of sparks - *white hot sparks*\r\n\r\nThermite *always reacts white hot* because it's self-contained in a small area and there's *nothing to limit the temperature* - other than material being ejected which is why it throws sparks and splatters to bad - this violent ejection of material is the only thing that keeps it from blowing up - mildly exploding which it does do sometimes - I've had it happen and start little fires everywhere over a 30-40' area more than once\r\n\r\nThermite tends to react out of control and splatter everywhere - it's difficult to control and contain\r\n\r\nI did some analysis of the footage and noticed a few things - I took temp readings (as well as possible) and noticed the molten material dripping is hotter than the source - exactly opposite of thermite\r\n\r\nsomething else I noticed is what appears to be electrical arcing and both sides of the source - it appears to an electrical short melting some Aluminium\r\nfrom what I can tell..\r\n\r\nhere's the detail showing the color probe results and here's a link to the footage slowed down to 1\/3'rd\r\n\r\nnotice the *electrical arcing* mostly to the left and a bit to the right as well..\r\n\r\n \r\nhttp:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/one_third.mpg\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 13:50:04","modified":"2006-09-28 13:50:04","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/temp_probe.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/temp_probe.jpg"}},{"id":180070,"heading":"' they wouldn't let kids play '","article":"I bought the potassium nitrate from the pharmacy.\r\n\r\nGreat stuff. Try a 50\/50 mix of ground sugar [powdered is best ] and saltpeter for a solid rocket fuel. Real stable w\/lots of gas w\/little fouling.\r\nI made my casings with rolled paper and glue with plaster o paris nozzle. \r\nGun powder components are harder to measure correctly 'in the field'. and mix. Oh well, I'm very LUCKY to have my eyes and fingers, Still.\r\nBack to arcing and burning aluminium ...\r\n\r\nwhat?\r\n\r\nThe material coming down *wasn't burning* it * wasn't aluminium*.There wasn't a smoke trail. It was hot but stable.\r\n\r\nThat's all I'm trying to point out. It's necessary to focus sometimes and we should consider this as iron and not aluminium.\r\nsheeesh.\r\n","author":"sure, they did.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 14:20:22","modified":"2006-09-28 14:20:22","fileurl":""},{"id":180092,"heading":"try buying Chorate","article":""It's necessary to focus sometimes" \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n"I bought the potassium nitrate"\r\n\r\n\r\n*Chlorate* - big big difference - try buying *that* anywhere..\r\n\r\n"The material coming down *wasn't burning* it * wasn't aluminium*.There wasn't a smoke trail. It was hot but stable*\r\n\r\n\r\nI refered to it as MELT... and the smoke was blowing IN (to the building) but that's the point - thermite is very UNSTABLE and throws sparks - EJECTS globs in all directions - sideways and UP included\r\n\r\n\r\nAlways at white heat - this isn't that hot, it's not even hot enough for steel much less a thermite reaction..\r\n\r\nit's consistant with electral arching melting Aluminium and there ARE electrical arcs on both sides of it\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 14:54:52","modified":"2006-09-28 14:54:52","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/focus.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/focus.jpg"}},{"id":180094,"heading":"sparks & stuff w\/thermite","article":"That's weak.\r\n 'thermite is very UNSTABLE and throws sparks - EJECTS globs in all directions - sideways and UP included' \r\nThis is wrong because it's positioned INSIDE the building. \r\nWhere you can't see it.\r\ncheck out this page on thermite.\r\nhttp:\/\/www.amazingrust.com\/Experiments\/how_to\/Thermite_pics-videos.html","author":"no shit, Sherlock","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 15:17:50","modified":"2006-09-28 15:17:50","fileurl":""},{"id":180098,"heading":"what?","article":"potassium chlorate?\r\nI said I still have my eyes and fingers.\r\nDon't try this at home, kids..\r\n1. Iron not aluminium was flowing because of the reaction it would have in an oxygen environment at that temperature.\r\nNow what is this nonsense about electric arcs for crying out loud.\r\n\r\nRespond w\/o your asinine graphic, please.","author":"Hex\/TW is\/are dangerous.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 15:39:56","modified":"2006-09-28 15:39:56","fileurl":""},{"id":180099,"heading":"yes definitely","article":"It's electrical arching melting Aluminium\r\n\r\nI can clearly see the electrical arcs in three places and can clearly see the Aluminium burning and making white oxide ash as it falls - some of it is falling at less than red heat and bursting into white oxide combustion as it falls which is exactly what Aluminium does..\r\n\r\nNot thermite and not steel..\r\n\r\nit's electrical and Aluminium (could be lead or zinc as well but not steel - steel doesn't flow at less than red heat or combust into white oxide)\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 15:48:19","modified":"2006-09-28 15:48:19","fileurl":""},{"id":180100,"heading":"electric arcing would ingnite the aluminum","article":"That's even more of a reason to discount the 'aluminum' theory because we have two conditions of ignition for aluminium. Heat and even higher heat in the 'arcs'.","author":"Zapman","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 15:53:17","modified":"2006-09-28 15:53:17","fileurl":""},{"id":180101,"heading":"must I post the video again?","article":"did you type this?\r\n'some of it is falling at less than red heat and bursting into white oxide combustion as it falls which is exactly what Aluminium does.. '\r\nyou know, the term 'bursting' is interesting.\r\n\r\nwhat exactly do you mean?\r\n\r\nThey cooled as they fell, leaving no characteristic smoke signature as they fell, if they had been burning.\r\n\r\nWhat are you saying? You have to support these ideas with real world physics.","author":"Xfactor","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:05:59","modified":"2006-09-28 16:05:59","fileurl":""},{"id":180102,"heading":"Hex to Punk: "...all you see is *what you want to see*..."","article":"And it's as true of 9-11 as it is of this interpersonal stuff. There's no possibility of intellectual rigor with a personality like this. "Facts" and bits of scientific trivia are for one thing: to be picked selectively and lined up differently from one argument to the next based on what's needed to WIN a given argument\r\n\r\nTruth? hahaha Fuck truth! Truth is for naive kids\r\n\r\nWinning!! Now THAT is the high calling!\r\n\r\n"do you believe everything some flake tells you ?" \r\n\r\nIf it supports his obsession to WIN a given argument at a given moment, of course! Inasmuch as the word 'belief' can be applied to his mental process, that is. It's not quite the same as what the dictionary says\r\n\r\nUnfortunately, Sheepdog isn't a special case AT ALL. A great many Westerners are like this. It's not even a thing they consciously choose to do or control; they apparently slide outta momma's fish-hole hardwired for it and it's impossible for them to even achieve awareness that this is what they're like. When it comes to Truth, they're born hopelessly lost. Their tuner's broke. \r\n\r\nIt's a heritable condition, I think, that goes back through every link of our "civilized" lineage, which goes a long way toward explaining why we're so outstandingly evil among the world's people, as history -- present history most of all -- clearly reveals. These are defining mental habits of all criminals, both the ones in the prisons AND the ones in the gated communities. The "Great Cities" (i.e. Great rat-scrabbling Hells) of Europe were caldrons of selection that bred us to be this way. \r\n\r\nNative American philosophy holds an equally powerful and resonant explanation: cities are uniquely suited to rat-like behavior, and Western *congenital_urbanites* are people of the Rat Totem\r\n\r\nLook at 'dog's picture. He even LOOKS like a rat! I'm stone-cold serious.\r\n\r\nIf the West's psychological "science" were for real (instead of being stacked with the same personality disorder) this '"Truth" is whatever I want' psychology would be a formally described mental disease. \r\n\r\nJim Fetzer's got it REEEEEEEEEEL bad! So does Alex Jones. So do a great many other leaders of the 9-11 "Truth" movement. \r\n\r\nThese people are not committed to truth as an ideal. They're *POLITICIANS*. The second type is the exact polar opposite of the first -- truly consummate rats\r\n\r\nI think the 9-11 "Truth" movement is too important to be such peoples' plaything. First of all their personalities are fundamentally at odds with its alleged purpose: chasing the track of truth is an extremely demanding mental exercise in which they have absolutely no interest, to the point of not comprehending its most basic meanings. Second, if they want to translate it into a form of POLITICS (which they already have), they are going to fucking lose because all the world-class heavyweight champeens of politics are with the opposition. \r\n\r\nTruth is a cosmic force. It has the power to crush politics. These people are never going to make that happen","author":"yep, thass right","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:05:59","modified":"2006-09-28 16:05:59","fileurl":""},{"id":180106,"heading":"this is difficult in stills but look","article":"here you can see all 3 electrical arcs, then see the one on the left get really bright for A FRACTION OF A SECOND (which only electrical arcing does) then you see a glob that just fell only which was only barely glowing that BURSTS INTO COMBUSTION LEAVING A TRAIL OF ***WHITE OXIDE*** which only Aluminium, Zinc or lead does - ***STEEL DOES NOT DO THIS***\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 16:22:47","modified":"2006-09-28 16:22:47","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_a.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_a.jpg"}},{"id":180107,"heading":"here's where the arc get's really bright","article":"when you look at the motion video you can see it's *FLICKERING*..\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 16:25:57","modified":"2006-09-28 16:25:57","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_b.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_b.jpg"}},{"id":180108,"heading":"smashy pops again...yawn","article":"someone's cranky and out of arguments .\r\n\r\n'Unfortunately, Sheepdog isn't a special case AT ALL. A great many Westerners are like this. It's not even a thing they consciously choose to do or control; they apparently slide outta momma's fish-hole hardwired for it and it's impossible for them to even achieve awareness that this is what they're like. When it comes to Truth, they're born hopelessly lost. Their tuner's broke.' \r\n\r\n'Now what does that have to do with reactive burning [ or lack of same] aluminium?\r\nSheeesh. Pay attention.","author":"let's look at it","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:26:18","modified":"2006-09-28 16:26:18","fileurl":""},{"id":180109,"heading":"and here's the white oxide trail","article":"this only barely glowing glob fell and burst into white oxide ash which is *exactly* what Aluminium does\r\n\r\nsteel\/iron does not make white oxide - it makes black oxide\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-28 16:28:52","modified":"2006-09-28 16:28:52","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_c.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/arc_c.jpg"}},{"id":180110,"heading":"Whizzards","article":"And you are supporting an electric arc theory?\r\nVery good.\r\nButs that's a side issue from aluminium which is reactive at that heat light, in air. \r\nAnd would burn. \r\nAnd it wasn't.\r\nIt's not aluminium. Forget the aluminium.","author":"Oh electrics arcs...","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:36:26","modified":"2006-09-28 16:36:26","fileurl":""},{"id":180112,"heading":"laughable","article":"You have never seen a metal fire, apparently.\r\nYou visuals are weak. ","author":"you call that burning?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:39:40","modified":"2006-09-28 16:39:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180113,"heading":"I posted the focus picture","article":"to illustrate that although a person can focus it can also be like tunnel vision - he'll see only what he wants to see\r\n\r\nfortunately these stills, the greatly enhanced mpg I made and the explaination of what I've determined will benefit other's with open minds\r\n\r\nonce sheepdog's made up his mind about something nothing will ever change it - no evidence no pictures data or analysis will sway him in the least\r\n\r\nhe see's only what he want's to see - he even accuses several different people of both sexes living in different places - even overseas - with different personalities and different knowledge and abilities of being some ghost figure who becomes any\/everyone who simply disagrees with him\r\n\r\nI agree he only makes real activists look bad but think since his dysfunction is so blindingly obvious that no serious activist even pays any mind to it\r\n\r\nhe effectively spams the newswire with paranoia soaked BS - one flake subject after another - and always places the burden of proof on everyone else then no matter what you show him he dismisses it all anyway\r\n\r\nI almost wish we were all flakes too then he would automaticly blindly shallow anything we said - which is exactly what he does with the people he get's his flake shit from - then he posts it on here for attention\r\n\r\nthe only attention he gets as in the flake world he's just one of many and doesn't stand out - they're all like that\r\n\r\nthe "service" he provides the movement is simply a bad example of what not to be like and is proof of how tolerant we are - even flakes have a place and standing it seems\r\n\r\nbut again at least we can deconstruct and clairify some things some of the time - the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide so it lays this thermite BS to rest\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:46:31","modified":"2006-09-28 16:46:31","fileurl":""},{"id":180114,"heading":"thesis concluded, perhaps?","article":"trimming the nonsense away again-\r\n\r\n'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide '\r\nwell dear readers, is that what you see on the provided?\r\n exhibit A\r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite\r\njudge for yourself.\r\nDoes this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise.\r\n[?]\r\nWho writes your stuff, do you, all by yourself?","author":"The Stand","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 16:54:14","modified":"2006-09-28 16:54:14","fileurl":""},{"id":180131,"heading":"Important context re: New York "eyewitnesses" to explosions","article":"New York policemen and firemen *especially* are knuckle-dragging troglodytes whose INTERPRETIVE OPINIONS of what they witness should not be given undue weight. Ergo we have orange-hot steel in the rubble becoming "pools of molten steel" and jolts and booming noises inside the towers becoming "explosions." \r\n\r\nIf some gangly barefoot yokel with no teeth wearing nothing but overalls were to share these observations in his best country dumb-ass accent, would you take his word as gospel? Rural America is not the only home of horrifying ignorance. New York has MORE than its share","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 19:31:06","modified":"2006-09-28 19:31:06","fileurl":""},{"id":180165,"heading":"what about measurements and recordings","article":"well seismic instruments don't lie and neither do satellite infrared images\r\n\r\nseveral seismographs recorded high explosive signatures just as the buildings free-fell\r\n\r\nSatellite images recorded the sites were extremely hot (off the scale) for weeks after the buildings imploded while temperature probe readings into the rubble showed thousands of degrees \r\n\r\n\r\nso while people may exaggerate instrument measurements don't...\r\n\r\n \r\nalso with WTC-7 many of the aspects and events match - the penthouse on the roof tied to the central core started falling first just as the radio\/TV tower on WTC-1 did\r\n\r\nall three buildings fell into their own footprints as only demolition can do, all three fell at free-fall speed - there wasn't time by far for any "pancake effect"\r\n\r\nlarge pieces of steel beams were ejected out up to hundreds of feet outward and while one can claim the firemen exaggerated the explosions they were reporting to dispatch\r\non their radios that the fires were nearly out - recently released under FIOA tapes of the fireground and tactical channels confirm this\r\n\r\nexternal videos show the volume and character of smoke - it was greatly reduced at the time of the implosions and was black - oxygen starved which is not a high heat\r\nwidespread substained fire needed to weaken the central columns which in any case would have been left standing regardless - at least some of the 47 in each building\r\nclosely coupled as a group in box formations - some of the thickest and strongest steel columns ever made\r\n\r\nwhile much thinner and weaker beams and columns have always withstood even the fiercest fires with only at worst slight buckling\r\n\r\nno steel frame building has ever collasped from fire - either before or since, even full infernals lasting days where the entire building was engulfed with much thinner\/weaker steel..\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 21:36:47","modified":"2006-09-28 21:36:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180172,"heading":"thanks for the photo, Whizz...","article":"anymore.\r\nNow that that's settled, actually I believe the seismic anomalies occurred before each strike, real time.\r\n","author":"Now TW\/Hex Doesn't need to ask for my picture","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 22:04:03","modified":"2006-09-28 22:04:03","fileurl":""},{"id":180180,"heading":"If some gangly barefoot yokel with no teeth wearing nothing but overalls","article":"were to post on this forum we would suspect it to be TW\/Hex but certainly not trained fire fighters. Fire fighters have to have brains to stay alive.\r\nNot so for all of us apparently.","author":"with green teeth and no sense","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 22:21:44","modified":"2006-09-28 22:21:44","fileurl":""},{"id":180188,"heading":"with trees and flowers and chirping birds","article":"well sheepdog you'll notice that I didn't actually place the picture on here - only linked to it\r\n\r\nalso I didn't comment about it when TW did because it's not important - now according to Becky TW is there in California, not here at all (she has reason to keep up on these things - the masada 2000 shit list)\r\n\r\nmy interest begins and ends where my name comes up\r\n\r\nnow while refusing to look at the evidence shoved right under your nose http:\/\/rexit2.org\/keli\/ (boy is that getting old) you still cling to equating whomever\/whatever you please to support the idea that\r\nanyone who disagrees with you in any way or capacity are all rolled into a single big ball with a sticker labled "government agent" slapped on it\r\n\r\nthis enormous ball which just keeps growing - it's already a dozen people tall - is rolling around stalking you to squash you because...\r\n\r\n- you're so invaluable to the cause of social justice seeing as you do so much in it's service\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 22:54:37","modified":"2006-09-28 22:54:37","fileurl":""},{"id":180192,"heading":"Naw, if they had brains...","article":"...they wouldn't run into burning buildings for a living just to show everybody how big their balls are. These aren't volunteers -- we're not talking 'community involvement.' What we have here is a *career choice*. whoa. Real bridge & tunnel Joey Buttafuoco 'fuggedaboudit' types, as in: yoo-neekly stoopit. Or certifiable pyromaniacs. I'm a blue collar hero myself, dog, but I still know STUPID when I see it. Most people in this mental class from Anywhere USA go into the military, but Noo Yawkahs this stoopit have other oppahtooniddies, see. \r\n\r\nYou need to change your nick to 'TW's bitch-dog'","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 23:18:38","modified":"2006-09-28 23:18:38","fileurl":""},{"id":180193,"heading":"government agent mon","article":"You sure act like one.\r\n\r\nStill waiting for some creditable evidence to support your secret radio station fantasy.\r\nLike a news clipping about it.\r\n\r\nAnd I told you any sites you recommend that aren't readily used, are suspect. Bite me. Like you once said a naked browser is vulnerable.\r\n\r\nEven though you already know what I look like and where I live. You even know where I work and what I do for a living. heh heh\r\naside from the usual crap out off your huge asshole, what have you said that I haven't reduced to absurdity, like arcs, bursting oxidation and dead guys.\r\nAlthough I do agree about the explosive effects and heavy steel debris distribution from the blast front, evident in the WTC 1&2 demolitions.\r\n\r\n","author":"ja mon","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 23:22:16","modified":"2006-09-28 23:22:16","fileurl":""},{"id":180194,"heading":"Hate to differ, but...","article":""all three buildings fell into their own footprints as only demolition can do"\r\n\r\nLook, hex, this is an old CD-'Borg talking point that is just plain WRONG\r\n\r\n1) the towers' collapses were wildly messy and did massive damage to surrounding buildings, many of which had to be demolished as a result\r\n\r\n2) Are you saying that when such buildings fail for some reason other than explosive demolition, that they do so in a radically different way? Do they fall OVER like a tree, maybe? Should the top of the south tower have fallen OVER onto other buildings, leaving the rest of the tower intact? Please explain","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 23:33:47","modified":"2006-09-28 23:33:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180195,"heading":"firemen and denial-at-all-costs","article":"Well they also go to save people's lives - to pull people out\r\n\r\nit seems pretty disrespectful of the dead to me, to say what their character and\r\nmotivations are when you don't know them personally considering that at least to\r\nsome extent they risk their lives to rescue people\r\n\r\nalso none of the issues regarding instrument measurements or the similarities between\r\nWTC-7 and 2 and especially 1 have been addressed, while the character of dead people\r\nseems like a distraction \r\n\r\n\r\nsheepdog I'm surprised\r\n\r\nyou mean to say there's evidence you won't look at ?\r\n\r\nthat's shocking !\r\n\r\nthe denial thought process is alive and well - at least you have that\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 23:38:24","modified":"2006-09-28 23:38:24","fileurl":""},{"id":180197,"heading":"don't get tangled up in the ball","article":""wildly messy and did massive damage to surrounding buildings"\r\n\r\nwell that's a subjective evauation - I have hundreds of highly detailed high resolution photographs taken of the surrounding buildings which show surprisingly little damage\r\n\r\nalso satellite images which likewise show very well defined footprints while satellite images\r\nof other skyscrapers that have collasped are as you characterized - messy\r\n\r\nif you were to place all the messy collaspes into one category and the clean footprint collaspses into another, when factoring in the height and winds in the case of hurricanes, the WTC buildings would fall well within the clean footprint category\r\n\r\nmost importantly WTC 7 and 1 & 2 are since other than the heights, the winds are the same\r\n\r\nthis is a minor point when compared to the other issues I've enumerated above which I would like you to explain likewise\r\n\r\nkeeping in mind there's no requirement that we fall into lockstep agreement _or else_ as there are with fanatics\r\n\r\n ","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-28 23:55:54","modified":"2006-09-28 23:55:54","fileurl":""},{"id":180201,"heading":"Points you're missing hex","article":"1) I've laid eyes on this bunch in person. Therefore I know them 15,000 times better than you. That's what I'm speaking from. "Knuckle-dragging troglodytes" is not REMOTELY unfair. They behave like PIGS, continuously, much more so than cops, who have had to clean up their act for PR's sake. When they "save people's lives," they probably want $1,000 a pop fom the men and at least a little stinky-finger from the women. The kids? If they don't give head, fuck em! No, I'm NOT kidding. Firemen are some of the hardest-core old-timiest New Yorkers I've seen, and hardcore old-time New Yorkers have to be seen to be believed. They're the most corrupt scum on earth. All the old stories never stopped being true, they just got strangled off somehow (PR capital of the world...). Compared to anywhere else in the US, New York might as well be on a different planet. \r\n\r\n2) Their anecdotal testimony is being quoted as if they actually know what they're talking about, and I'm telling you they're virulent anti-intellectual bumpkins, Noo Yawk -style","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 00:13:01","modified":"2006-09-29 00:13:01","fileurl":""},{"id":180204,"heading":"very good I'll allow you","article":"and control the parameters of your discussion until you err ...\r\n And there are many pertinent ones about 9-11 & Chomsky, gate keeping by apparent friendly but very phony progressives and other related topics of that perswasion. I have to admit one thing and that's the 'roman candle up its ass' comment was a great simile. In the memory of that amusingly graphic mental picture, I'll say,go for it.","author":"to discuss this w\/yourself","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 00:20:02","modified":"2006-09-29 00:20:02","fileurl":""},{"id":180206,"heading":"Inconsistency","article":""I have hundreds of highly detailed high resolution photographs taken of the surrounding buildings which show surprisingly little damage" \r\n\r\nSo how come so many of them were GONE two years later?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 00:24:41","modified":"2006-09-29 00:24:41","fileurl":""},{"id":180211,"heading":"this is still character not issues","article":"I lived in the New York area myself - I used to transmit there and go to meetings and visit friends in the city, used to receive and decode select TV on ch.60 & 68 from the tower on WTC-1 which is where & how I developed my first descrambler\r\n\r\nI have some experience with firemen having dealt with them directly due to 3 fires I was involved in - which more than the average person\r\n\r\nthe 15,000 figure is both hyperbolic and unsupported, mostly as you don't know what my background and experience is, and again does not address the issues I've raised other than "firemen reported hearing explosions"\r\n\r\nand they aren't the only ones - there's a handful of ordinary people who escaped, who did as well..\r\n\r\nare we going to treated to the demonization of them too ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nso the seismic readings, the satellite infrared readings and the temperature probe readings are - \r\n\r\nwrong ?\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 00:37:49","modified":"2006-09-29 00:37:49","fileurl":""},{"id":180212,"heading":"Okay, forget it","article":"I'll just agree not to agree\r\n\r\nI remembered there was a flipside to the shortwave picture: you can also get the lowdown on what US imperialism is STILL spewing at the rest of the world. Voice of America to Africa is a good example of how VOA continues to do what it's always done for 60+ years: arrogantly agitate to overthrow \/ destabilize any national leader the US Empire doesn't like. Radio netherlands USED to be a reliable source of moderate \/ left \/ peacenik commentary, but in the past year or so they've turned into one of the most blatant hasbarah mouthpieces on earth. The Kosher Nostra must have offered them "a deal they couldn't refuse" ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 02:02:33","modified":"2006-09-29 02:02:33","fileurl":""},{"id":180213,"heading":"meet the demons","article":"Reporter for USA Today stated that the FBI believed that bombs in the buildings brought the buildings down\r\n\r\n\r\nMSNBC reporter stated that police had found a suspicious device "and they fear it could be something that might lead to another explosion" and the police officials believe "that one of the explosions at the world trade center . . . may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some kind of explosive device in it, so their fear is that there may have been explosive devices planted either in the building or in the adjacent area"\r\n\r\n\r\nParamedic said "at first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear pop pop pop pop pop -- thats exactly what because thought it was"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nPolice officer noted "People were saying, 'There\u2019s another one and another one.' I heard reports of secondary bomb explosions \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOfficer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said about the south tower: \u201c[I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion.\u201d \r\n\r\nThen, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: \u201c[There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street.\u201d\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDan Rather said that collapse was "reminiscent of those pictures we've all seen [when]a building was deliberately destroyed by well-placed dynamite to knock it down" (CNN's Aaron Brown and a Fox News reporter also made similar comments)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nBritish newspaper stated "some eyewitnesses reported hearing another explosion just before the structure crumbled. Police said that it looked almost like a 'planned implosion' "\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOne ABC reporter stated it looked like a controlled demolition; another ABC reporter stated "anyone who has ever watched a building being demolished on purpose knows that if you're going to do this you have to get at the under-infrastructure of the building to bring it down"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nA reporter for WNYC radio said "The reporters were trying to figure out what had happened. We were thinking bombs had brought the buildings down"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nA Wall Street Journal reporter said "I heard this metallic roar, looked up and saw what I thought was just a peculiar site of individual floors, one after the other exploding outward. I thought to myself, "My God, they\u2019re going to bring the building down." And they, whoever they are, HAD SET CHARGES . . . . I saw the explosions" \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nA facilities manager in the north tower "was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nMoreover, there is evidence that substantial explosions occurred well BELOW the area impacted by the planes, and -- according to some witnesses -- they occurred BEFORE the plane had hit:\r\n\r\n9\/11 hero, who was the last person out of the north tower, said that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower BEFORE the plane hit \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSimilarly, employee of an insurance company in south tower heard an explosion from BELOW the impact of the airplane, an "exploding sound" shook the building, a tornado of hot air, smoke and ceiling tiles and bits of drywall came flying UP the stairwell, and the wall split from the bottom UP\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nParamedic "heard ground level explosions"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nDetective for the Port Authority reported, long before the collapse of the tower,"When we reached the 15th floor, the building began to vibrate and shake. I heard loud explosions and rumblings in the background. The stairwell shifted and gave out a large metal on metal groan. The stairwell then twisted back into place with another loud groan. The lights went out. At that point the stairwell became filled with smoke and dust." \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nWorld trade center employee stated "the bottom of our building was blown out"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nBBC reporter stated "Then, an hour later, we had that big explosion, from much much lower [well below the plane impact]. I don't know what on earth caused that".\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nJanitor who worked in the basement of north tower witnessed explosion in basement at around the same time the plane hit far above\r\n\r\n\r\nCBS News reporter stated "All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame...". (same reporter stated "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar"\r\n\r\n\r\nWorker in one of the twin towers discusses explosion on the 8th floor \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAnother worker in the twin towers states "when we get to the lobby, there was this big explosion"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nStationary engineer who worked in world trade center one described tremendous damage in the basement of the building more consistent in nature and timing with a bomb than with damage from an airplane\r\n\r\n\r\nConstruction worker discusses explosions in the sub-basement of tower 1; same worker talks about explosions in the basements of tower 2\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nParamedic captain stated "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode the popping sound and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building" \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nMSNBC reporter stated "I heard a second explosion ... And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last". The same reporter stated that the force of the explosion overturned cars and set them on fire \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nParamedic said \u201cShortly before the first tower came down, I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere. People started running" \r\n\r\n\r\nSame paramedic stated "by the time the debris settled from the first collapse we started to walk back east towards west street and few minutes later \u2013 really don\u2019t remember the time frames because we were so busy in trying to account for who was in the staging area and who wasn\u2019t we basically had the same thing the ground shook again and we heard another terrible noise and the next think we knew the second tower was coming down and again we were running for our lives"\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 02:19:44","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:06","fileurl":""},{"id":180226,"heading":"Well shucks, dog","article":""...the 'roman candle up its ass' comment was a great simile." \r\n\r\nThanks\r\n\r\nLook, hex, what are you doing? You said "let's not be fanatics." I said "I'll agree to disagree," which means (didn't think this needed explaining) "okay, let's drop it then." \r\n\r\nYou're not dropping it. Instead you're hitting me with the exact thing I said I didn't trust: the untrained opinions of Brooklyn Joe Sixpack whose "credential" is a little tin shield that says "FDNY rank & file Fireschlub badge no. nnnnnn" ....\r\n\r\nThis page (which looks like your source) starts out saying it all:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.911proof.com\/11.html\r\n"CREDIBLE SOURCES SUCH AS NEW YORK FIREFIGHTERS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS"\r\n\r\n"Credible??" Teabag my fat nappy balls, "credible!" \r\n\r\nIf you just gotta hit me with more CD bullshit, could you make it something that doesn't trade on my NONEXISTENT Pavlovian knee-jerk respect for these donut-brains? \r\n\r\nIf they were REALLY heroes, they'd announce a wildcat strike by catching the next train to Atlantic City right after throwing Molotov cocktails into every building in New York. Meanwhile the cops would be riding elevators to every penthouse and corner office to "evacuate" them -- feet first. This would be the world's most joyous day since 10,000 years ago, when the Big Mistake first reared its head as "Sumer." \r\n\r\nIf everybody everywhere else had any sense (versus being American) they'd then throw a nationwide "Free At Last!" party and give these guys cherry-popping rights to their first-born daughters\r\n\r\nNew York is a tick the size of Greenland hanging off the ass of the planet -- and the country. This is most of why the Civil War was really fought","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 07:54:25","modified":"2006-09-29 07:54:25","fileurl":""},{"id":180228,"heading":"the time lag","article":"when you posted "let's drop it" I was gathering the statements and didn't even see your post until after I posted myself..\r\n\r\nin any case since you said you don't trust the firemen's words I specifically excluded them and insted concentrated on other people like news reporters, ordinary people like construction workers, janitors, paramedics, etc\r\n\r\nleft out all firemen and almost all policemen except one saying "what people told him" and 1 firewoman\r\n\r\nwoman\r\n\r\n> Brooklyn Joe Sixpack whose "credential" is a little tin shield that says "FDNY rank & file Fireschlub badge no. nnnnnn" ..\r\n\r\njoe-ette ?\r\n\r\nthe mainstream reporters from ABC, CBS, BBC, MSNBC, the Wall Street Jounal, USA Today, Dan Rather, a British Newspaper, WNYC radio\r\n\r\ncertaintly aren't "Joe sixpack" fire department personel or average everyday (must be wrong too) people either for that matter\r\n\r\nSo while we not agree about the validity of what they said at least we can agree many different people said it\r\n\r\nthe ground shook many said\r\n\r\nseismograph readings said the ground shook too..\r\n\r\n - better get those damn instruments away from that devil brew and drop it...\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 09:17:26","modified":"2006-09-29 09:17:26","fileurl":""},{"id":180268,"heading":"Yeah, so why aren't you dropping it then? Are you a FANATIC, perchance?","article":"mainstream reporters ... certaintly aren't "Joe sixpack" [and neither are] fire department personel average or everyday ... people" \r\n\r\nWrong, hex. When it comes to rendering rigorous **technically_meaningful** descriptions of what they observed happening to the buildings, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GODDAM FUCKING JOE SIXPACKS!!\r\n\r\nGRIFFIN AND FETZER ARE BLUSTERING JACKASS JOE SIXPACKS!!\r\n\r\nThat's my whole point, and you're willfully ignoring it\r\n\r\nThis is especially true under the circumstances, in which nary a one of them was not experiencing massive emotional trauma at the time. I daresay the first-hand recollections of structural\/civil engineers could not be wholly trusted under such circumstances! \r\n\r\nThe video camera recordings of the collapses are an **infinitely** more valuable record, and they DO NOT corroborate what many of these people are saying. \r\n\r\nYou know, you're even more of a political maniac about this than sheepdog! Just like him, you keep barfing out this **learned system** of talking points and technical canards that you've brainwashed yourself into believing is absolutely airtight when in fact its bedrock assumptions are BULLSHIT. You never caught this because you were a technical rube vis structures going in (which I wasn't), and now that you're on board 100%, your ego won't ever let you admit the CD 'Borg-Meisters have MADE AN ASS OF YOU. \r\n\r\nThis noise about seismographs is a perfect example of your weak technical understanding. You're mixing up chickens and eggs left and right here, but the details of this are trivial compared to the **attitude** behind it, which is your complete apathy for intellectual rigor about any of this, which would include being wary of assumptions, generating and seriously considering alternative explanations *on_your_own* while acknowledging certain giant unresolvable voids in your "perfect knowledge." \r\n\r\nTRUTH?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!\r\n\r\nTruth is at the very bottom of your priority list cuz you're A POLITICAL FANATIC. Like I told 'dog, you need to quit lying to people and rename your movement "9-11 POLITICS." On some level, perhaps not even consciously, you've decided that 9-11 is the key to inciting Americans to struggle free from outright totalitarian governance, and that this end justifies some 'creativity' and 'spin.' \r\n\r\nIt's that last part that makes my skin crawl. I think your taste for politics and ego over truth and reality displays the REAL root nature of the very problem you THINK you're solving. We could take the neocons down, the Democrats, all of them, and replace them with hex and people hex likes, and then because your heads have all been wired by the same nasty political-liar mutation as theirs ("you gotta know how to *behave*"), you would ultimately become just like them, probably quickly. \r\n\r\nIt's this unexamined contempt for Truth that is the Real Enemy. It's a madness","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 19:59:16","modified":"2006-09-29 19:59:16","fileurl":""},{"id":180273,"heading":"gee where do I end","article":"the pot calling the keddle black, more demonization, character attacks, screaming, rhetoric, strawmen and hyperbole\r\n\r\n\r\nI posted just one (1) reply explaining that I didn't see your "drop it" post until I posted the statements that I was busy looking for - careful to exclude the whole groups of people you've already demonized - reporters, construction workers, paramedics, janitors\r\n\r\n\r\nand now the character assassination has spread to me as well - now I'm a demon too\r\n\r\njust like that...\r\n\r\nAnd still no data is being exhanged, discussed or shared\r\n\r\n\r\nI think this discussion is over","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 20:35:09","modified":"2006-09-29 20:35:09","fileurl":""},{"id":180288,"heading":"Yup, pop go more lies","article":"hex: "I posted just one (1) reply explaining that I didn't see your "drop it" post ... and now the character assassination has spread to me as well" \r\n\r\nOh, but that wasn't ALL you said, hex. You then returned to your argument, bringing in new points\r\n\r\n"seismograph readings said the ground shook too.. \r\n\r\n- better get those damn instruments away from that devil brew and drop it..." \r\n\r\nSo you're saying there's nothing snide -- ad-hominem like -- in that last barb?\r\n\r\nYou want to keep the argument going? Believe me, I can do that dance","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 21:18:58","modified":"2006-09-29 21:18:58","fileurl":""},{"id":180297,"heading":"You alienate everyone","article":"Doesn't play well with others.\r\nRuns with scissors.\r\n\r\nWe've got to work on your social skills, honey.\r\nIf only I had the time.....\r\n","author":"Doncha, TW?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 21:41:48","modified":"2006-09-29 21:41:48","fileurl":""},{"id":180298,"heading":"I alienate LIARS deliberately","article":"and in this culture that's pretty much everybody","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 21:52:40","modified":"2006-09-29 21:52:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180299,"heading":"speaking of liars and their POLITICS...","article":"How's your assumption that I'm only an asshole to Jews and women holding up these days? Doing just fine, isn't it?","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 21:56:13","modified":"2006-09-29 21:56:13","fileurl":""},{"id":180300,"heading":"I'm willing to concede your point","article":"Yeah, you are pretty much an all-around asshole. I guess there is something to be said for consistency.\r\n\r\nBut you are particuarly bad with Jews and with women, and are worse with Jewish women.\r\nIf you didn't plunge straight into attack mode with Hex, you probably would have found much you could agree on. \r\n\r\nDamn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"","author":"finally! something we can agree on!","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 22:04:22","modified":"2006-09-29 22:04:22","fileurl":""},{"id":180302,"heading":""Damn men"","article":"Yup, only sexism TOWARD women FROM men is evil. \r\n\r\nSexism toward men from women is SUPER-NEATO-COOL and TRENDY!! Come on girls, join the fun! When this provokes an inevitable backlash, we can bawl "VICTIM!!!!" and rip even more of their balls off with dull pruning shears. It's the perfect political game!\r\n\r\nIt's exactly like the way only "racism" TOWARD Jews is evil \r\n\r\nWhen us Jews are the rabid baby-stabbing racist monsters, that's our birthright. After all, we're the Chosen Race\u2122. \r\n\r\nBut then when other groups retaliate over this we get to bawl "oy GOTT, we're being PERSECUTED again, just like with the NAZIS!!!! It's the HOLOCAUST all over again!! Why do people always hate us for NO REASON?!?!?!?!!" \r\n\r\nIt works every time (at least on these American historical imbeciles). \r\n\r\nIsn't that COOL??? ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 22:37:07","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:07","fileurl":""},{"id":180303,"heading":"well maybe a bit high-strung","article":"> If you didn't plunge straight into attack mode with Hex, you probably would have found much you could agree on. \r\n\r\n\r\nit's no big deal - this is only one issue.. We do agree on other issues - one's that are clear enough to not get lost in the details about\r\n\r\nI find this issue to be too convoluted and TW to be a bit too high-strung to see the benefit outweighing possible bad blood over it. Besides no data is being exchanged anyway so there's little interest for me to begin with. It's more important to cut our losses and agree to disagree and move on to greener pastures - nothing positive would be gained by beating this dead horse so we're letting sleeping dogs lay\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n> Damn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"\r\n\r\nthis sounds vaguely misandrist but maybe it's just me :)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 22:40:38","modified":"2006-09-29 22:40:38","fileurl":""},{"id":180304,"heading":""I'm willing to concede your point"","article":"Which point would that be? Could you try to avoid dancing around so you can have it both ways this time (like the shameless political liar that you are)? Note: my POINT was not that I'm an asshole, so don't even go there","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 22:47:56","modified":"2006-09-29 22:47:56","fileurl":""},{"id":180306,"heading":"To Hex\/TW","article":""Damn men"\r\nby TW Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:37 PM\r\n\r\nYup, only sexism TOWARD women FROM men is evil.\r\n\r\nOk. The last comment was harsh. I'm willing to add "Can I throw it on the fire then eat it?" to the list of generalizations.\r\n\r\nIt's exactly like the way only "racism" TOWARD Jews is evil\r\nWhen us Jews are the rabid baby-stabbing racist monsters, that's our birthright. After all, we're the Chosen Race\u2122.\r\n\r\nYour words, not mine. I call racism when I see it. I don't tolerate it. Someday we should discuss the rest of the interview with Einstein, btw.\r\n\r\n Why do people always hate us for NO REASON?!?!?!?!!"\r\n\r\nEinstein had interesting things to say about this. Do you actually want to know?\r\n\r\n \r\nwell maybe a bit high-strung\r\nby hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:40 PM\r\n\r\n\r\nI find this issue to be too convoluted and TW to be a bit too high-strung\r\n\r\nHigh Strung? Oh, maybe just a wee bit. I knew I'd never casually invite him over for coffee when he wrote about joyously showering in the arterial blood of his enemies. Its so hard to get out blood stains.\r\n\r\n greener pastures - nothing positive would be gained by beating this dead horse so we're letting sleeping dogs lay\r\n\r\nExcept of course trying to fit in one more adage....\r\n\r\n> Damn men. Their entire frame of reference is "Should I fuck it ?" or "Should I kill it?"\r\n\r\nthis sounds vaguely misandrist but maybe it's just me :)\r\n\r\nIt was vaguely misandrist, but I've since modified it (see above). Is it better now?\r\n\r\n\r\n"I'm willing to concede your point"\r\nby TW Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:47 PM\r\n\r\nWhich point would that be? Could you try to avoid dancing around so you can have it both ways this time (like the shameless political liar that you are)?\r\n Note: my POINT was not that I'm an asshole, so don't even go there\r\n\r\nOops. I thought that was your point. Ok, I'll take back my concession.\r\n","author":"Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 23:31:34","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:07","fileurl":""},{"id":180310,"heading":"Threads w\/Hex\/TW sure get huge, right, Tia?","article":"I mean, don't they?\r\nAnd they always seem to stay on topic like being about false 'progressives' and the peculiarities of 9-11.\r\n\r\nDon't ya think?\r\nNow I wonder how many posts will go on before this one is ever noticed in this one trac topic?","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-29 23:51:00","modified":"2006-09-29 23:51:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180311,"heading":"Tia the dancing liar: "Oops. I thought that was your point"","article":"I doubt it","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:02:34","modified":"2006-09-30 00:02:34","fileurl":""},{"id":180313,"heading":"Hey Tia\/Sheepdog","article":"Don't you know its dangerous for the two halves of your split personality to interact directly this way?? Sheesh, you're nuts enough when your alteregoes are ignoring each other!","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:08:14","modified":"2006-09-30 00:08:14","fileurl":""},{"id":180314,"heading":"Huge threads?","article":"Rather than change the topic, I'll retreat nicely. I don't understand enough of the hard science involved in this discussion to meaningfully participate\r\n\r\nPlay nice together boys.","author":"Nah. Men just tend to exagerate","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:11:38","modified":"2006-09-30 00:11:38","fileurl":""},{"id":180315,"heading":"I mean I'd hate it if...","article":"..."Sheepdog" and "Tia" were to get in a real tiff with "each other." I can just picture "Sheepdog" (the right arm) grabbing "Tia" by the throat while "Tia" (the left arm) held a gun to "Sheepdog's" temple. Wow, that could get ugly. (psst, Tia: you want to squeeeeze the trigger. heeheeheehehheeehheheeeheheheee)","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:17:29","modified":"2006-09-30 00:17:29","fileurl":""},{"id":180316,"heading":"Tia: "I don't understand enough of the hard science"","article":"Yeah, it's like that for chicks\r\n\r\nOh, but they know how to crochet though! And they have tits (big plus)! There, Tia, I modified my asshole remark. It's better now, right? ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:22:29","modified":"2006-09-30 00:22:29","fileurl":""},{"id":180317,"heading":"hostilities and friction create sparks and flames","article":"> I knew I'd never casually invite him over for coffee when he wrote about joyously showering in the arterial blood of his enemies.\r\n\r\nyeah I saw that\r\n\r\n\r\nand saw it and saw it and saw it\r\n\r\nI'd just surrender and try *not* to be an enemy I guess\r\n\r\nafter all what makes one an enemy to him ? - mouthing off, being snide ? I can deal with not doing that - even just for friendship much less the threat of violence.\r\n\r\nit's important to keep things in perspective - intentionally upsetting people for the mere amusement when you are on the same side just isn't worth the hassle\r\n\r\n\r\neven when you're on the opposite side is it really worth it ?\r\n\r\nif so what does that say about - say nonaggressive women ?\r\n\r\nmaybe the aggression is just bubbling below the surface and some denial is in play\r\n\r\nmaybe the generalizations are really projections\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: misandry\r\n\r\n> Is it better now? \r\n\r\n\r\nwell the real question is are you better now ? what's important is how you really feel about it, not what my perceptions are..\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> I alienate LIARS deliberately \/ and in this culture that's pretty much everybody\r\n\r\nI'm not trying to be intentionally dishonest or willfully disrespectful - it's difficult for people to get their meanings across sometimes in a setting like this - people tend to misconstrue words and attitudes under these conditions\r\n\r\nI'm sorry you saw it that way\r\n\r\nif saying devil brew intended only as a light hearted poke at the prior comments is too disrespectful, then I'm just sorry period and won't speak in that manner again - we're not enemies and I don't want to be your enemy..\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: adages\r\n\r\nthey are useful to provide familiar frames of references and conforting not easyly misconstrued expressions of intent and attitude, but unfortunately they don't seem to facilitate further antagonistic baiting, so I can see why you would take issue with them :)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:23:25","modified":"2006-09-30 00:23:25","fileurl":""},{"id":180318,"heading":"Now I'm confused","article":"Sheepdog and Tia are the same person?\r\nCharismatic megafauna and Tia are the same person?\r\nBecky Johnson and Tia are the same person?\r\n\r\nAnyone else?\r\n\r\nDang. I'm going to need a bigger house for all my alter-egos, until the nice young men in their clean white coats come to take me away.\r\n\r\n\r\nTW- even you couldn't believe that Sheep dog and I are one and the same. You are only saying that to be nasty to Sheepdog.","author":"who's who?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:23:28","modified":"2006-09-30 00:23:28","fileurl":""},{"id":180319,"heading":"not familiar w\/ science","article":"Well, that's understandable. Neither does TW?Hex and if we go back to:\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/09\/178626_comment.php#180028\r\nWe can see this all kinds of equivocations mock science and pure 'BS was produced to avoid this thermite issue. \r\nAnd who was knocking who's 'dick' into the dirt? Since you are so unfamiliar with science? \r\nBut hey, I still think the false progressive turned attack weasel , is a good theme to keep in mind. Maybe a field guide to moles 'n trolls.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:24:51","modified":"2006-09-30 00:24:51","fileurl":""},{"id":180320,"heading":"reality can be such a bitch","article":"re: not being familiar with science\r\n\r\n\r\n> Neither does TW?Hex \r\n\r\nI am a scientist - but then again you already knew that\r\n\r\nskeptic Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 5:12 PM \r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/09\/180237_comment.php\r\n\r\nis knowledgeable enough to qualify as a scientist too\r\n\r\nsheepdog however has the education level of a 5'th grader - at best\r\n\r\nnot even qualified to determine who is or isn't..\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:43:40","modified":"2006-09-30 00:43:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180321,"heading":"good ol Hex","article":""by hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 6:09 AM \r\nkeli1041fm@yahoo.com \r\n\r\nmyself I try to stick to facts and avoid flaming as it serves no purpose \r\n\r\ntry to do research and have citations to back them up, try to stick to the topic of the thread\r\n [?]"\r\n\r\n[But the main problem is your huge asshole showing. Sd]","author":"So tell me, sez Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:47:54","modified":"2006-09-30 00:47:54","fileurl":""},{"id":180322,"heading":"well there you are","article":"the education level of a 5'th grader is an honest evaluation - many people don't even have that - in science\r\n\r\nnothing to be ashamed of...\r\n\r\neven if you are, then the operative word is "try" - as no one's perfect and so it allows for some wiggle room\r\n\r\nthe shame goes further however and hoists up "huge asshole" - definite flaming\r\n\r\nso the rules are different for sheepster - he gets to flame all he wants\r\n\r\nbecause he's special and better\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 00:58:00","modified":"2006-09-30 00:58:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180323,"heading":"Yes, Yes, No, , Maybe?","article":"Oh, but they know how to crochet though! \r\n\r\nNot me. Sigh. I'm a failure at the womanly arts. I can do a running slippery half hitch though- thats almost like crocheting. \r\n\r\nAnd they have tits (big plus)! \r\nThere you go, concerning yourselves with the vessel again.\r\nOnly in the West are they a big deal. Elsewhere, they are nursing tools. In the developing world- upper thighs are hot.\r\n\r\nThere, Tia, I modified my asshole remark. It's better now, right?\r\nFor you, its mild.\r\n\r\n\r\nhostilities and friction create sparks and flames\r\n\r\n(even without thermite or jet fuel!)\r\n\r\nby hex Thursday, Sep. 28, 2006 at 8:23 PM\r\n\r\n\r\nI'd just surrender and try *not* to be an enemy I guess\r\n\r\nTW regards anyone who doesn't agree with him as an enemy. We can usually get through two or three posts without falling into misogyny\/misandry\/ insults or threats.\r\n\r\nafter all what makes one an enemy to him ? - mouthing off, being snide ? I can deal with not doing that - even just for friendship much less the threat of violence.\r\n\r\nGuilty, guilty. But I usually don't initiate the round of name calling- nor do I ignore it. \r\n\r\nit's important to keep things in perspective - intentionally upsetting people for the mere amusement when you are on the same side just isn't worth the hassle\r\n\r\nYou are right of course. \r\n\r\neven when you're on the opposite side is it really worth it ?\r\n\r\nI think we are generally less than serious about the teasing- right TW, Dawg? At least I am. \r\n\r\nmaybe the generalizations are really projections\r\n\r\nI think not.\r\nRe: misandry\r\n\r\n> Is it better now?\r\n\r\nwell the real question is are you better now ? what's important is how you really feel about it, not what my perceptions are..\r\n\r\nI think men are just fine. I don't own a pair of pruning shears. \r\n\r\nBut hey, I still think the false progressive turned attack weasel , is a good theme to keep in mind. Maybe a field guide to moles 'n trolls. \r\n\r\nI have no trouble keeping you all straight. I've met Becky, I've met Megafauna. I am sure they aren't figures of my imagination. And they are REAL progresives- Becky works tirelessly with the most disenfranchised group in our culture- the homeless. Meg is an elected official in some newish political party looking to change the world. They are as real as they come. What have you done lately?","author":"Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 01:00:08","modified":"2006-09-30 01:00:08","fileurl":""},{"id":180325,"heading":"don't hurt yourself","article":"now now, whizz. Take it easy. You're Only A Lad. \r\nThese things take time and patience. \r\nWould you like to stroll down our own little version of 'the way back' machine? And why I can support the 'huge asshole' theory?\r\nWe could start here:\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/10\/137910_comment.php#138003\r\nand go on with even more examples of whizzardry.\r\nInteresting diatribes.\r\nI've been doing some digging myself. and await your pleasure.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 01:08:00","modified":"2006-09-30 01:08:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180326,"heading":"contribute names to the shit list ?","article":"re: crochet\r\n\r\nI'm good at it (I build micro-circuitry)\r\n\r\n\r\nre: mammary glands \r\n\r\n> Only in the West are they a big deal\r\n\r\nwell "the west" is a bit general - they're not a big deal to me\r\n\r\n\r\nre: the thread's video footage \r\n\r\n> even without thermite or jet fuel\r\n\r\nthere's no indication of thermite - I have experience with it and what appears in the video is electrical arcing with melting of Aluminium which is to be expected\r\n\r\n\r\n> TW regards anyone who doesn't agree with him as an enemy.\r\n\r\nThen I agree with him :)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nre: projection of aggressiveness and misplaced misandry\r\n\r\n> I think not. \r\n\r\nwhere there's smoke there's usually fire\r\n\r\n\r\n> I think men are just fine. I don't own a pair of pruning shears.\r\n\r\nI think Muslims are just fine. I don't have a nuclear bomb :)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> What have you done lately?\r\n\r\nUnwelcome Guests, Guns & Butter, Between The Lines\r\n\r\nlately heard on the air here\r\n\r\nI can't speak for sheepdog - there's no known thing he does do\r\n\r\nunless you count flame, distract and post flake shit\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 01:26:27","modified":"2006-09-30 01:26:27","fileurl":""},{"id":180334,"heading":"examine this sequence","article":"this comment and the progression into majic arcs and blurred smears he calls proof.\r\nThis is Hex at his best.\r\n\r\n'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide ' \r\n\r\nwell dear readers, is that what you see on the provided? \r\nexhibit A \r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite \r\njudge for yourself. \r\nDoes this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise. \r\n[?] \r\nAnd telling yourself that you were right or the moon is green cheese is only an opinion.\r\nLet the reader decide.\r\n\r\n ","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 01:54:49","modified":"2006-09-30 01:54:49","fileurl":""},{"id":180344,"heading":"Tia: "I call racism when I see it. I don't tolerate it."","article":"Oh yeah? I sure don't remember you calling it when you were shown THIS. \r\n\r\nOh, but this is d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t, id'nit? Uvv courss...\r\n\r\nYes Tia "calls" racism wherever she sees it, but sometimes she "redefines terms"...","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 02:53:33","modified":"2006-09-30 02:53:33","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/israel__s_terror_victims.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/israel__s_terror_victims.jpg"}},{"id":180346,"heading":"So, lets see a url","article":"Where\/When have I ever said I approved of what was going on in Lebanon? \r\n\r\nWhat I did state was there was widespread media manipulation going on- that there was a whole lot of staging by Hizbollah. (and there was excellent documentation of this by independent journalists). \r\n\r\n When you see that level of disregard for truth, you can't help but wonder what else you aren't hearing about.","author":"Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 03:00:43","modified":"2006-09-30 03:00:43","fileurl":""},{"id":180347,"heading":"A few","article":"1. War sucks. But how is war racism?\r\n\r\n2. Thisis a 9\/11 thread. Sheepdog will get upset if "we" change the subject, and he already thinks you work for Mossad, trying to get anti-Zionists to look bad. ","author":"more thoughts","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 03:04:18","modified":"2006-09-30 03:04:18","fileurl":""},{"id":180350,"heading":"Nope, Tia, that rathole's a dead end. Sorry","article":"Israel had this offensive planned months in advance and the plan was now in full motion -- the two kidnapped soldiers were just a handy PRETEXT...\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/fact\/content\/articles\/060821fa_fact\r\n"Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah\u2014and shared it with Bush Administration officials\u2014well before the July 12th kidnappings." \r\n\r\nAnd so Israel aggressively invaded a neighboring country on contrived grounds and one of your stormtroopers-in-the-sky fired a missile into a pickup truck obviously loaded with civilians trying to flee from the IDF, killing an entire family including babies and kids, and your excuse for this is "war sucks"? By which you clearly mean, "oh well, what can you do? Too bad it's all Hizbollah's fault."\r\n\r\nThat's a really fucking disgusting thing to say, Tia\r\n\r\nThere is no room for doubt that if the tables were flipped precisely and it was dead *Israeli* babies and kids we were looking at here, that you would be livid and heaping condemnations on Lebanon. \r\n\r\nThat glaring double standard is what makes you a BIGOT ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 03:54:35","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:07","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/idf_terror_victims.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/idf_terror_victims.jpg"}},{"id":180351,"heading":"Duck and Cover","article":"Israel had this offensive planned months in advance and the plan was now in full motion -- the two kidnapped soldiers were just a handy PRETEXT...\r\n\r\nHizbollah was amassing weapons for years. A plan to deal with it makes good sense. Like a fire drill. Or here in Claifornia, an earthquake drill "Duck and cover"\r\n\r\nAnd so Israel aggressively invaded a neighboring country on contrived grounds \r\n\r\nBecky's already adressed this beautifully, so i won't.\r\n\r\n\r\nand one of your stormtroopers-in-the-sky fired a missile into a pickup truck obviously loaded with civilians trying to flee from the IDF, killing an entire family including babies and kids, and your excuse for this is "war sucks"? \r\n\r\nThats not an excuse. \r\n\r\nThere is no room for doubt that if the tables were flipped precisely and it was dead *Israeli* babies and kids we were looking at here, that you would be livid and heaping condemnations on Lebanon.\r\n\r\nThere were dead Israeli babies and kids. We just weren't plastering their photos on indymedia. There were over a million people living in bomb shelters for over a month.\r\n\r\nThat glaring double standard is what makes you a BIGOT\r\n\r\nNo double standards. I don't like war. Even when we win.\r\n\r\n(You couldn't possibly think I'm really Sheepdog....could you?)","author":"Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:03:13","modified":"2006-09-30 04:03:13","fileurl":""},{"id":180352,"heading":"and here she is "redefining her terms" right here","article":""Where\/When have I ever said I approved of what was going on in Lebanon?" \r\n\r\nNaw, squirmy rat, what you said was "I call racism when I see it." Well there are PLENTY of displays of *zionist* racism around here, the above pictures from the wanton invasion of Lebanon being especially damning, but you don't ever seem to "call" THOSE","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 04:08:23","modified":"2006-09-30 04:08:23","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/fetus_murdered_by_idf.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/fetus_murdered_by_idf.jpg"}},{"id":180353,"heading":"Lets see if this works","article":"Tragedy on both sides.\r\nI knew Gal's family.","author":"have I learned a new trick?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 04:21:52","modified":"2006-09-30 04:21:52","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/5to8yearolds.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/5to8yearolds.jpg"}},{"id":180354,"heading":""Hizbollah was amassing weapons for years. A plan to deal with it makes good sense.&q","article":"What, only Israel gets to accumulate vast stockpiles of weapons for the sake of self-defense? Are you trying to say Hezbollah was about to INVADE Israel? That would be suicide, and it's not what they were equipped for anyway. They were obviously dug in to kick your ass if you should invade THEM, which is a right any society has. \r\n\r\nBut again, the rights you take for granted for Israel you won't even acknowledge for Lebanon, and that's because you're a bigoted pig","author":"more double standards","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:27:40","modified":"2006-09-30 04:27:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180355,"heading":"Say it once, say it twice, say it with chicken soup and rice","article":"You're old enough to remember the old Star Trek. The first one, with Captain Kirk. \r\n\r\nThe crew of the Enterprise had visited a planet that sanitized war- rather than bomb and shot, they had a computer determine by lottery who was to live and who was to die. If your number was called, you were expected to report for deactivation. Both sides did this. It was war, without the mess.\r\n\r\nWell, we don't got that yet. We've got mess and lot of it. We have dead babies. We have burnt forests. We have detroyed ecosystems and poluted waterways, and it sucks.\r\nFor all people.\r\n","author":"War isn't nice","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:27:40","modified":"2006-09-30 04:27:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180356,"heading":"But you're still denying Israel's CRIMINALITY","article":"This invasion was UNILATERAL AGGRESSION\r\n\r\nThe IDF asshole who blew up that truck knew EXACTLY what he was doing. This is a plain display of pure hatred \r\n\r\nBut somehow when it's Israel and zionists who hate murderously and behave criminally, you never seem to notice","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:35:58","modified":"2006-09-30 04:35:58","fileurl":""},{"id":180357,"heading":"It worked! You can teach an old dog new tricks!","article":"Israeli babies killed. Is it more powerful to show before photos, or after?","author":"easliy impressed","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 04:36:26","modified":"2006-09-30 04:36:26","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/upto1yearolds.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/upto1yearolds.jpg"}},{"id":180358,"heading":"That's ALL of them for the past 40 years, isn't it?","article":"Israel killed more babies than this in Lebanon in one week, but for you the score will never be even for these eight Israeli infant terror victims, rare as hen's teeth. It's the Yaacov Perrin "logic": \u201cOne million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail"","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:46:21","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:07","fileurl":""},{"id":180359,"heading":"Not quite","article":"This invasion was UNILATERAL AGGRESSION\r\n\r\nOn Hizbollah's part. See Becky's excellent analysis. its somewhere around here. Israel had prepared and practiced a response, and they carried it out.\r\n\r\nThe IDF asshole who blew up that truck knew EXACTLY what he was doing. This is a plain display of pure hatred\r\n\r\nI can't tell by looking at the photo what did the damage. Was it a missile? Was it a land mine? Why do you think it was premeditated? What evidence do you have?\r\n\r\nBut somehow when it's Israel and zionists who hate murderously and behave criminally, you never seem to notice\r\n\r\nI was annoyed when they bombed UNIFIL. (though I have no love for the UN). I was upset about the ambulances, too...until I saw the expose.\r\nhttp:\/\/www.zombietime.com\/fraud\/ambulance\/\r\n\r\nSo, isn't it 3 am where you are? Don't you have some nubile young thing under the down comforter waiting for you? Why are you discussing Lebanon on a 9\/11 thread?\r\nIs it just to torment Sheepdawg? Or is it just to torment me?","author":"Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:47:18","modified":"2006-09-30 04:47:18","fileurl":""},{"id":180361,"heading":"nope","article":"I learned to post photos! I think this is very cool. Luddite no more.\r\nWant to see my rabbit next?","author":"just since the second intifada","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 04:55:12","modified":"2006-09-30 04:55:12","fileurl":""},{"id":180362,"heading":"No, I will not read Becky's fucking warped "analysis"","article":"You couldn't make me read it by holding a gun to my head! Becky's a lying hate-twisted bitch\r\n\r\nIt was a missile fired from an aircraft and it happened in broad daylight. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/news.bbc.co.uk\/1\/hi\/world\/middle_east\/5184122.stm\r\n\r\nIt's not like this is the first time, you know. \r\n","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 05:02:43","modified":"2006-09-30 05:02:43","fileurl":""},{"id":180363,"heading":"Still don't","article":"Becky's a lying hate-twisted bitch \r\nShe's actually a lovely person.\r\n\r\nIf it were a missile launched from a plane, how would the pilot know who was in the cars? At any normal flying altitude, you wouldn't be able to make out the features of those in the car, unless it was a converitble, perhaps.","author":"see your point?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 05:13:40","modified":"2006-09-30 05:13:40","fileurl":""},{"id":180369,"heading":"so TW is right about you","article":"> Don't you have some nubile young thing under the down comforter waiting for you?\r\n\r\nthis is baiting - the exact same sexism you accuse him of\r\n\r\n\r\n> Why are you discussing Lebanon on a 9\/11 thread? \r\nIs it just to torment Sheepdawg? Or is it just to torment me?\r\n\r\nbesides the fact that the thermite is flake shit and worthless and has already been addressed, this represents a diversionary tactic\r\n\r\nthe statement that debate with inconvenient facts is "torment" is very revealing\r\n\r\nIsrael has a well established and very long record of intentionally targeting civilians as the body counts solidly back up\r\n\r\nTW is exactly correct in pointing this out and that people like Becky and you squirm and avoid this simple truth - you can't expect him to concede your diversionary and less acute points points when you're not willing to even address these\r\n\r\nthe sexist baiting then yelling sexist, with misandry sprinkled on top\r\n\r\nthe refusal to concede direct facts then expecting diversions to be\r\n\r\nhypocritical behaviors - game playing, tap-dancing, toying\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 08:57:41","modified":"2006-09-30 08:57:41","fileurl":""},{"id":180372,"heading":"your opinion is only that","article":"this is always funny.\r\nThe way you deal with evidence with your lack of same...\r\n\r\n'besides the fact that the thermite is flake shit and worthless and has already been addressed, this represents a diversionary tactic '\r\nCalling anyone a flake w\/o links of qualifications for your opinions.\r\nwant to see a flake?\r\n"stop using" - try stop spamming\r\nby Hex Wednesday, Oct. 05, 2005 at 7:55 AM\r\n\r\nunusual words crossed with handles is what datamining is all about \r\n\r\nthe statistics show *only you and billder* use most of these words or post these subjects \r\n\r\nit also shows something else - either you OR him post but never TOGETHER \r\n\r\nalso, you extensively post HIS MATERIAL on here yet *you two have never had a conversation* \r\n\r\nsheepdog is only used on here & portland IMC but a 3'rd "omnivore" speaks FOR sheepdog \r\n\r\nall these handles cross with eachother... \r\n\r\nand lastly when I insulted billder (even though he posts extensively on IMC) it was YOU who blew up, YOU who reacted - NOT HIM \r\n\r\nwhen I posted his embarrassing picture, again it was YOU who reacted and became hostile and NOT HIM \r\n\r\n\r\nhere I am doing an expose' on him and it's YOU NOT HIM replying, YOU becoming hostile \r\n\r\nand no conversation appears ANYWHERE - not on any IMC and nowhere else on the web *between you two* \r\n\r\nyou forgot to talk to yourself as part of the deception \r\n\r\nyou use plenty of his material on IMC and he posts plenty of spam on IMC as well so he's aware of it... \r\n\r\nbut not a word has ever been exchanged between you \r\n\r\nthis datamining doesn't include an analysis of the hidden posts either \r\n\r\nthis reveals that billder started heavyly spamming and his posts started being hidden, THEN HE DISAPPEARED AND YOU TOOK OVER, but at a smaller volume - to avoid the same fate \r\n\r\nbut you did get the same fate after all - the list of hidden "sheepdog" posts is large and growing - as I pointed out and as you "proudly" pasted yourself \r\n\r\nand *where* this changeover from billder to sheepdog took place is where his posts started being hidden - HERE and PORTLAND \r\n\r\non other IMC's which tolerate your spam you still post as billder... \r\nand you "two" have never had a conversation '\r\n[ now that's flake material]\r\nhere view this video that Hex says is 'bursting aluminium' fires.\r\n******\r\nThis is Hex at his best. \r\n\r\n'the footage clearly shows electrical arcing and Aluminium combusting with white oxide ' \r\n\r\nwell dear readers, is that what you see on the provided? \r\nexhibit A \r\nhttp:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=thermite \r\njudge for yourself. \r\nDoes this look like burning material or cooling material without any smoke trails from any rapid chemical reaction 'bursting' or otherwise. \r\n\r\n\r\n ","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 09:11:23","modified":"2006-09-30 09:11:23","fileurl":""},{"id":180373,"heading":"confirmed - confirms","article":"IMC's are sweeping the spam off - they are sweeping YOUR spam about enmod, chemtrails, haarp, etc off too\r\n\r\nthe video you keep referencing only confirms what I said - I enhanced the relevant section and pointed the evidence out specifically, but it's still the same video\r\n\r\nthat's why I have no objection whatsoever to your continued re-posting of the link - it's only backs up what I'm saying :)\r\n\r\nsame with the expose' - the actions of IMC's back that up as well :)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 09:48:25","modified":"2006-09-30 09:48:25","fileurl":""},{"id":180374,"heading":"anybody notice something? about Hex?","article":"Hex has an opinion and stands upon it.\r\n\r\nYou ever notice he then builds on this opinion w\/o any evidence, and continues to build and build and build.\r\n\r\nAnd he calls *me* bildler. Or Bill, or posts his Bush Admirer like, asinine graphics. But where are the links? Or quotes? There aren't any.\r\nIf anyone examines the words off of this individual's keyboard they will find very a selective agenda. Can anyone guess what this may be?\r\nLet's go down memory lane. We could start here.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/10\/136523_comment.php#136532\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 10:08:28","modified":"2006-09-30 10:08:28","fileurl":""},{"id":180376,"heading":"Welcome to LA Indymedia","article":"Dysfunctional personalities, anger-management washouts, bugeyed headcases, and the Zionists who toy with them (until we grow bored).\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 10:22:53","modified":"2006-09-30 10:22:53","fileurl":""},{"id":180377,"heading":"while doning my rain coat","article":"While waiting for the inevitable unsupported ad hominims I would add that this is precisely the parallel of a Chomsky like mole gate keeping uncomfortable subjects like in Chompsky's case, the denial of the JFK and 9-11 government crime cover up.\r\nIn Hex we see Global DU contamination, Planting the 'Iran has nukes', and chemtrail Operation Cloverleaf evidence [look it up on the search engine of your choice, folks ] as subjects he attacks in a fuselage of nonsense.\r\nWe could, for instance, look also at this example.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/09\/135658_comment.php#136045\r\n\r\nThere is much material of this kind. Thanks, IMC\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 10:27:26","modified":"2006-09-30 10:27:26","fileurl":""},{"id":180378,"heading":"the demon and his anti-flake shit agenda","article":"> Hex has an opinion and stands upon it\r\n\r\nyeah - who doesn't :)\r\n\r\n\r\n> Bush Admirer like\r\n\r\nwatch out - that ball's getting bigger\r\n\r\n\r\n> asinine graphics\r\n\r\nI don't recall BA ever doing scientific analysis and enhancement\r\n\r\nre: no "proof"\r\n\r\nwell the fields of datamining and statistics don't lend well to absolute proof\r\n\r\nthey can make a convincing case however\r\n\r\nwhich they have..\r\n\r\nspeaking of which - where's your proof ?\r\n\r\nthe chemtrails - have chemical analysis data ?\r\n\r\nthe enmod - have climate and statistical data ?\r\n\r\nthe haarp - have upper atmosphere data or radiographic\/field strength readings ?\r\n\r\nthe remote microwave mind control - have signal strength measurements and recordings ?\r\n\r\nno ?\r\n\r\nI guess all your proof was lost in that huge explosion you mentioned it being conveniently lost in\r\n\r\nhow convenient for you...\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 10:33:00","modified":"2006-09-30 10:33:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180379,"heading":"repeating myself","article":"like I always say.\r\nQuotes?\r\nlink?\r\nor just more of your Huge asshole BS?\r\nhence the 'huge asshole' comment.\r\nanother stroll down memory lane perhaps?\r\nHis corporate borg response to the contributions of Tesla\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/133317_comment.php#133347\r\nand\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/08\/134202.php\r\nHis attempt to plant the Israeli psyop of 'Iran has nukes' by constantly referring to a single suspect STRATFOR document...\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/01\/145635_comment.php#148952\r\nand a truckload of ancillary BS. Which never supports his intended pronouncement. IMOHO\r\ncheck it out yourself.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 11:09:09","modified":"2006-09-30 11:09:09","fileurl":""},{"id":180381,"heading":"Quick response","article":" Israel has a well established and very long record of intentionally targeting civilians as the body counts solidly back up\r\n\r\nIsrael avoids civilain casualties at the expense of their own.\r\nie: They could have leveled Jenin by air- but instead, they conducted a door to door search- setting up their own soldiers fro ambush. \r\n From the start of the second intifada of the Palestinians dead, 47% were combatants killed by Israel, another 13% Palestinian killed by other Palestinians.(the Palestinian on Palestinian violence is included with most stats you read) Three percent of Palestinian non-combatant deaths were female; 3% were people over 45. Of the Palestinian children killed, over 80% were older teenage boys, indicating the use of children as soldiers in this conflict\r\n\r\nHowever, of the 921 Israeli dead, 78% were non-combatants killed by Palestinians. Thirty percent were female; 25% were people over 45. They were targeted intentionally, in violation of international law. \r\n\r\nThe main difference between the deaths on both sides- the Palestinians TARGET children and civilians. Don't you ever wonder why their attacks aern't directed towards infrastructure? Why buses? Why pizza places? Why discos? The targets are chosen to mazimize terror and to mazamize civilian casualties\r\n\r\nIf the Israelis were targeting civilians, why are only 3% of the victims female? Wouldn't you expect the number to be closer to 50%? \r\n\r\nTW is exactly correct in pointing this out and that people like Becky and you squirm and avoid this simple truth - you can't expect him to concede your diversionary and less acute points points when you're not willing to even address these\r\n\r\nWe've addressed them multiple times- Becky especially.\r\n\r\nthe sexist baiting then yelling sexist, with misandry sprinkled on top\r\n\r\nGuilty as charged. I'm trying to keep the entertainment value up, but I can stop if they do.\r\n\r\nthe refusal to concede direct facts then expecting diversions to be \r\n\r\nWhen confronted with direct facts, the anti- Zionist response has been\r\n1. ignoring them\r\n2. claiming its a Mossad plot\r\n3. Attacking the source\r\n4. Attacking the poster\r\n\r\n","author":"Tai","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 11:35:41","modified":"2006-09-30 11:35:41","fileurl":""},{"id":180382,"heading":"nice proof - nice abuse","article":"> Huge asshole\r\n\r\nseems rather harsh for simply confusing you with billder\r\n\r\nre: your proof and mine\r\n\r\nyou can debate my proof because I've presented it...\r\n\r\nsomething you've yet to do - still\r\n\r\neven when asked directly and recently (look up) all we get are flames, diversions and avoidance\r\n\r\nis it better to be bitter and hostile while avoiding the subjects and being hidden ? how does that help your cause to educate the world on enmod\/chemtrails\/haarp ?\r\n\r\nor is the silenced victim part of the agenda as well ?\r\n\r\nthe power is in you - the data we expect to elevate your standing needs to be presented to change anything\r\n\r\n- beating me to a pulp over & over again in no way affects this situation..\r\n\r\nor is beating other's down part of the agenda as well ?\r\n\r\nquestions questions\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 11:38:26","modified":"2006-09-30 11:38:26","fileurl":""},{"id":180389,"heading":"think you had a wet dream","article":"re: the statistics and Becky "addressing" them\r\n\r\nyou should back up what you just posted above with citations - yourself - as Becky didn't type them - you did\r\n\r\nBecky has been doing the same thing - posting completely unsupported figures or from sources that are well known pro-Israeli propaganda sites, but otherwise only squirming harder on the\r\nsupported figures anyone else posts - she's simply more energetic at squirming & tap-dancing\r\n\r\n\r\n- this is not a positive attribute\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nre: endless mud-slinging, tap-dancing, etc\r\n\r\n> keep the entertainment value up, but I can stop if they do. \r\n\r\nset an example - after all you're better than us - remember ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> the anti- Zionist response has been\r\n\r\nyet another generalization\r\n\r\nthe 'ol "well you're just as bad as we are" tactic\r\n\r\nthe generalization throws people like me into the bag too, then shakes it all around so we all come out tarred & feathered, like -\r\n\r\n\r\ngehrig > Dysfunctional personalities, anger-management washouts, bugeyed headcases\r\n\r\n\r\nWelcome my wet dream - to disrupt, distract and discredit IMC and it's patrons\r\n\r\n\r\nwould you like a towel for that ? (toyia doesn't need one for her's)\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 11:56:02","modified":"2006-09-30 11:56:02","fileurl":""},{"id":180391,"heading":"more of my opinions on moles n trolls","article":"They attempt to establish their credentials y being helpful\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/132519_comment.php#132980\r\n"I've always liked you Hex 2005-07-17 10:42 AM"\r\n\r\nthen go into a rabid and word twisting affair which is evidenced in this one\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/02\/148641_comment.php#148645\r\nwhere he attempts to trivialize low level nuclear catastrophes like DU contamination to enable the continued use of these obscene weapons..\r\n\r\nafter all it's like "lead in a battery" [ want the quote and link, Hex? ]","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 12:03:00","modified":"2006-09-30 12:03:00","fileurl":""},{"id":180392,"heading":"Easy enough","article":" you should back up what you just posted above with citations - yourself - as Becky didn't type them - you did \r\n\r\nabout a year ago, I went to the B'Tzelem website, and counted the casualty figures. i've also used the booklet "Remember these children".\r\n\r\n","author":"www.btselem.org\/","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 12:13:18","modified":"2006-09-30 12:13:18","fileurl":""},{"id":180396,"heading":"and despite the runing interference","article":"runing interference w\/ co workers who attempt to derail the issue of the thread.\r\nThat's the purpose of a mole and this is to control the parameters of the discussion or cover it over w\/ noise.\r\nExamples of this tactic are BOUNTIFUL in this thread, alone.\r\nScroll up. dear reader, for laughs and education.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 12:40:04","modified":"2006-09-30 12:40:04","fileurl":""},{"id":180398,"heading":"axes and mouthpieces","article":"B'Tselem, a non-governmental organization (NGO) that describes itself as The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories and was founded by a group of Israeli public figures, including lawyers, journalists, University professors and members of Knesset.. \r\n\r\nwww.knesset.gov.il\r\n\r\nhmmmm seems suspicious - like haaretz\r\n\r\n\r\nmaybe you should just provide specific links to the actual figures and hopefully from more than a single source just to be safe and "un-biased"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nre: sheepdog's axe grinding\r\n\r\n> rabid and word twisting \r\n\r\nwill you ever put down that axe eugene ?\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 12:51:05","modified":"2006-09-30 12:51:05","fileurl":""},{"id":180400,"heading":"please put down that axe eugene","article":"okay you win - it was thermite\r\n\r\nand Uranium is global, chemtrails are killing us all, enmod is killing us all, haarp is killing us all and mind control is making us kill eachother\r\n\r\ngehrig - please pass the towel to sheepdog\r\n\r\nthanks :)\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 12:58:55","modified":"2006-09-30 12:58:55","fileurl":""},{"id":180404,"heading":"Its the","article":"maybe you should just provide specific links to the actual figures and hopefully from more than a single source just to be safe and "un-biased" \r\n\r\nThe sources at B'Tzelem have a distinct anti-Israel bias. If you read through their lists that is quite clear. \r\nThey are fairly comprehensive, however, and at least try to explain the circumstances of each death ("Killed while participating in hostilities), making it easier to distiguish between Palestinian "work accidents" and actual deaths during combat.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"most complete all in one source","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 13:26:39","modified":"2006-09-30 13:26:39","fileurl":""},{"id":180431,"heading":"In a word, no.","article":""re: sheepdog's axe grinding \r\n> rabid and word twisting \r\nwill you ever put down that axe eugene ?"\r\n\r\nNot as long as there are Huge assholes like Hex the mole.\r\nI think it's important to allow the readers a view into this creature.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/01\/145635_comment.php#149783","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 16:25:25","modified":"2006-09-30 16:25:25","fileurl":""},{"id":180436,"heading":"or this one","article":"Hex, trying to be scary\r\n\r\nso you want to know how Hex 2005-10-29 12:27 PM\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/10\/137910_comment.php#138211","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 16:43:44","modified":"2006-09-30 16:43:44","fileurl":""},{"id":180438,"heading":"sheepdog's insatiable blood lust","article":"> Huge assholes like Hex the mole \/ creature\r\n\r\n\r\nBut I already said you won - what else do you want ?\r\n\r\n\r\nhell I wasn't even here at all and you were busy chopping away ;\r\n\r\n--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nLike your successor, 'Hex', you will be proven to be filled with sh*t. \r\n\r\n\r\nunless you believe the crap 'Hex' and Ms. BJ were\/are pushing...) that Iran has nukes\r\n\r\n\r\nWhere's your friend Hex? Aren't there any anti-zionists you can call for back-up? \r\n\r\n\r\n-my "friend" Hex-\r\nby Sheepdog Saturday, May. 27, 2006 at 12:03 AM \r\n\r\nCome on, level with me... You sent him or 'was' him, weren't 'you'. \r\nHe was fun to chew on. Much entertainment. \r\n( Tweet! ) \r\n\r\nBut seriously, him, JA and all the other numbnuts gotta come from the same basket. \r\nAnd it's most likely your basket.\r\n\r\n---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n\r\nthat's pretty sad - hacking away at someone who wasn't even here to defend himself\r\n\r\nand now that I am, the chopping goes on in earnest\r\n\r\nYou won't visit my website and see the pictures of the real person you're hacking to death - even via proxy.. And you won't show yourself either in any way or manner..\r\n\r\ndehumanizing me to keep comfortably chopping away at me while denying your own humanity - hiding behind the mask of an animal\r\n\r\nacting like an animal\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 16:56:47","modified":"2006-09-30 16:56:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180440,"heading":"Ok. Its established. Hex is creepy","article":"Lets just give this guy wide bearth.....\r\n","author":"and you think the Zionists are scary?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 16:56:47","modified":"2006-09-30 16:56:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180444,"heading":"heh heh...","article":"Well, hell aren't we all? It's just that I have a taste for red meat. Living or fresh killed is best because the flavor is so sweet.\r\nIf you weren't a dangerous lying asshole who began this attack on me { would you also like quotes and links there, fella } I would probably not enjoy this quite so so much.\r\nMore on Hex the mole. \r\n This is where he joins the attack on another IMC editor to assist the enemy.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/10\/137433_comment.php#137871","author":"Sheepdog is an animal","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 17:31:09","modified":"2006-09-30 17:31:09","fileurl":""},{"id":180448,"heading":"Here's the deal","article":"Hex 1st establishes his credibility by saying all the good things you want to hear on subjects that are fairly well documented and usually I let Hex go on an on and on and on,because it does bring out information.\r\nHowever. well into a thread, good ol Hex starts to go into seizures of name calling and general bad form while pretending to assume the moral high ground. This, in effect satirizes the subject.\r\nWhen he isn't allowing his 'opponent(s)' to billboard huge amounts of zionist propaganda. [ in my opinion all racist, meaning zionist propaganda should be hidden thus eliminating these weasel fests ]\r\n\r\nThis is very close to the subject of Chomsky and other false 'intellectual' leaders. Each and everyone of you must do their own evaluation and never, ever accept someone else's words as truth.\r\n\r\nEverything I ever have or ever will say, is a lie. Always check it out yourself.\r\n:>)\r\n\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 17:52:01","modified":"2006-09-30 17:52:01","fileurl":""},{"id":180449,"heading":"Dang","article":"Indybay Rules of Debating\r\n\r\nThe following are the basic principles upon which all public debate must be conducted if you wish to be a true progressive and leftist person who cares:\r\n\r\n1. Indybay approved posters should be free to call everyone else nasty names, because they are so moral, but no one should be permitted to call leftists nasty names. When in doubt, the ultimate insult is to call your opponent a Zionist.\r\n\r\n2. For Indybay approved posters to call someone nasty names shows social concern and awareness. For someone to call a leftist a nasty name back is immature and impolite and avoiding the issues.\r\n\r\n3. Indybay approved posters need never document their claims.\r\n\r\n4. Whenever an approved Indybay poster is presented with documentation of facts that contradict the leftist's theology, the leftist must insist that no facts have been presented at all.\r\n\r\n5. No scientific sources that presents facts contradicting leftist theology are admissible. They must be dismissed as being "right-wing".\r\n\r\n6. All arguments may be settled by telling a non-leftist that he reminds you of Rush Limbaugh.\r\n\r\n7. Never ever take an economics course.\r\n\r\n8. Never recognize the fact that every idea of Marx's was debunked over 150 years ago. Never read any social science written since Marx. Never admit that you know that Marx was a racist and anti-Semite.\r\n\r\n9. Never visit the library.\r\n\r\n10. Never study statistics or public policy analysis.\r\n\r\n11. Always say "people of color" so everyone will know you care.\r\n\r\n12. Recycle.\r\n\r\n13. Whine.\r\n\r\n14. Pretend that you do not care about material things, but never sell your VCR or cellular phone or condo.\r\n\r\n15. Never admit that life ever involves tradeoffs. After all, when there are tradeoffs it is harder to feel righteous.\r\n\r\n16. Always support proposals that make real problems of the world worse just as long as advocating them can make you feel caring and righteous.\r\n\r\n17. Never admit that anything could be positive about the United States.\r\n\r\n18. Always insist that there are few world problems that could not be improved through the destruction of Israel.\r\n\r\n19. Always insist that you have no idea what political correctness is.\r\n\r\n20. Always use the female pronouns half the time or more. That way everyone will know you are egalitarian.\r\n\r\n21. Insist that you are more caring and compassionate than anyone else.\r\n\r\n22. Remember, you would prefer that poor people in the Third World starve rather than that they should embrace capitalism and live like you do.\r\n\r\n23. Other people must always be required to relinquish their material things so that you may feel idealistic and righteous.\r\n\r\n24. Your property is sacred; other people's property is to be used for social engineering and doing good.\r\n\r\n","author":"Stop, you two","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 17:56:57","modified":"2006-09-30 17:56:57","fileurl":""},{"id":180450,"heading":"I don't even have to open this page","article":"Don't go rushing in to protect your Assets.","author":"Sheepdog sez kiss off, Tia","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 17:59:37","modified":"2006-09-30 17:59:37","fileurl":""},{"id":180452,"heading":"but you have givin me a good series of ideas","article":"This discussion about Chomsky's weak kneed response to the GLARING suspicions about the 9-11 event reflect the general gate keeping done in the name of cloaking oneself acceptable normalcy and timidity. \r\nThis is not the time to wait, good people, this is the end of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.\r\nThe government has broken its contract with us, The People. Legislation just passed allows the CIA & Co. to begin a train of outrages upon the 'terrorists' which is all of us. Even the ones who believe they're 'in the loop'.\r\nLike Hex.\r\n ","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 18:14:53","modified":"2006-09-30 18:14:53","fileurl":""},{"id":180456,"heading":"we've been discussing you in chat","article":"[16:09:06] <<\tI think he should change his name to Jeffery Dahmer :)\r\n[16:46:14] >>\twhat the hell.\r\n[16:46:15] >>\tlol\r\n[16:46:34] <<\tI don't know how to respond to that\r\n[16:48:41] <<\tI haven't replied since he said that\r\n[16:51:26] >>\tthere is no response to that...\r\n[16:51:42] >>\thes on some wierd 'TRIP'\r\n[16:51:46] <<\tnot that I can think of :)\r\n[16:52:08] <<\the's always like that - (he's a mental case)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 18:57:05","modified":"2006-09-30 18:57:05","fileurl":""},{"id":180459,"heading":"yum","article":"Can't seem to get full. \r\nAnd there is the good side of Mr. Whizzard where he 'quotes me out of context to twist what I've said. [lying asshole ]\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/03\/150156_comment.php#151296\r\n\r\nthen read the real comment after his.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 19:05:26","modified":"2006-09-30 19:05:26","fileurl":""},{"id":180461,"heading":"or there's his tasteful side too","article":"I know Tia will like this. After all the boy she's 'chatting with' are 'opponents', right?\r\nthis one\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/132025_comment.php#132299\r\nand this one\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/131362_comment.php#131939\r\nand who could ever forget this one\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/131812_comment.php#131870\r\nI'll be right here, taking notes and sending one away every now and then.\r\nSupport Our Troops.\r\nBring them Home.\r\n\r\n","author":"Sheepdog sez have a nice 'chat'","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 19:18:44","modified":"2006-09-30 19:18:44","fileurl":""},{"id":180464,"heading":"well maybe not Dahmer after all","article":""Society right from the very beginning started to make me an animal. . . that's why I started all that killing." \r\n\r\nALBERT DE SALVO \r\n\r\n\r\n"I always had the desire to inflict pain on others and to have others inflict pain on me. I always seemed to enjoy everything that hurt. The desire to inflict pain, that is all that is uppermost." \r\n\r\nALBERT FISH \r\n\r\n\r\n"I had gotten out of bed and I was in the kitchen making coffee. Evidently, I had done some cooking the night before. There was some meat on the stove in a frying pan. I think it was human flesh."\r\n\r\nEDDIE COLE \r\n\r\nmy buddies suggested these -\r\n\r\na salvo of cole fish ?\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 19:21:53","modified":"2006-09-30 19:21:53","fileurl":""},{"id":180472,"heading":"my 'buddies' suggested THIS","article":"How about an ice water enema for you and your 'chatmates' in the israeli lobby like Tia, and Co., Hex.\r\nBelieve me it would do you a world of good.\r\nBut lets get back to Mr. Whizzard. So damned much material here...\r\nahhh this one, speaking of appetizing food so attractively packaged :\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2003\/10\/91927_comment.php#92296\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2003\/11\/93173_comment.php#93639\r\nand then this one right next to it.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2003\/10\/91819_comment.php#92287\r\nHex began to get hungry, I guess. I personally don't care for long pig no matter how much ketsup. \r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 19:38:53","modified":"2006-09-30 19:38:53","fileurl":""},{"id":180480,"heading":"sheepdog wants some ass","article":"> your 'chatmates' in the israeli lobby like Tia, and Co\r\n\r\nhahaha\r\n\r\nno - hamachi, and none of them even know about this place\r\n\r\n(our tunnels are used with radio station operators and p2p to pierce NAT's)\r\n\r\n\r\nthat ball just got a few more people bigger..\r\n\r\nit's ~ 15 people tall now, watch out there - it's going to squash you !\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nyou've used the word ass about 30 times in this thread alone sheepdog\r\n\r\n{ass - asshole - huge asshole - roman candle in the ass - smoke up the ass}\r\n\r\nand now ;\r\n\r\n"How about an ice water enema for you \/ Believe me it would do you a world of good"\r\n\r\n\r\nah - sheepster...\r\n\r\nI think you need to find a special friend - you seem lonely or something ;)\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 20:04:07","modified":"2006-09-30 20:04:07","fileurl":""},{"id":180482,"heading":"excuse me for being sexist","article":"Speaking of beef and not wishing to neglect our gay brothers in the struggle, I should also post \r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2004\/01\/101168_comment.php#101179\r\n.this selection from Mr. Whizzrd of good fashion.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2004\/01\/101168_comment.php#101179\r\nand\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/01\/145635_comment.php#148968\r\n\r\n\r\nThis one is a new winner!\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2003\/10\/91927_comment.php#92112","author":"Sheepdog sez there's more","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 20:08:31","modified":"2006-09-30 20:08:31","fileurl":""},{"id":180484,"heading":"Setting the record straight","article":"Tia: "[Becky's] a lovely person"\r\n\r\nOh? Here she is spewing pre-packaged hasbara direct from Tel Aviv to minimize an IDF psychopath's stomach-turning slaughter of an unarmed 11-year-old girl. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/santacruz.indymedia.org\/newswire\/display\/14929\r\n\r\nIn the process, she flips the blame for the girl's death back on the girl, her parents, and palestinian society as a whole\r\n\r\nThis is inhuman. I'm sure Becky is quite sophisticated and thus **politically_adept** at passing herself off as "lovely" in writing and in person. I don't care. A Satan Incarnate should be expected to be "charming" and "lovely." Her act fools most goy polloi, I'm sure, but it don't fool me, not after witnessing her obscene moral cat's cradle with Iman al-Hams. That tore the mask off forever for me. \r\n\r\nBecky is a deliberate calculating hater of the purest sort. She really should move to Israel: she would fit right in \r\n\r\nIf you weren't just as twisted by hatred as her, you would figure it out","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-09-30 20:30:22","modified":"2006-09-30 20:30:22","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/iman_al-hams_dead.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/iman_al-hams_dead.jpg"}},{"id":180489,"heading":"BECKY's not a mole","article":"she's a troll. Thanks for feeding it.\r\nRemember this is about Moles n Trolls.\r\nLike you and BECKY and Hex and Chomsky.\r\n\r\nCertain issues must be attacked [ what me to pull up some QUOTES from this very thread, Mr. Reasonable side of the party? ] or derailed and others defended.\r\nWe kinda know who's doing what on this particularly long thread.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 20:44:01","modified":"2006-09-30 20:44:01","fileurl":""},{"id":180491,"heading":"we're all trolls and moles - except sheepster ?","article":"re: Becky\r\n\r\n> she flips the blame for the girl's death back on the girl, her parents, and palestinian society as a whole\r\n\r\nyeah I remember that too\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Moles n Trolls \/ Like you and BECKY and Hex and Chomsky\r\n\r\nwhat ??? Chomsky a troll ?\r\n\r\nyou're losing it sheepster\r\n\r\nI guess everyone is at this point...\r\n\r\na simple question - who in your opinion *isn't* a troll or mole ?\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 20:52:38","modified":"2006-09-30 20:52:38","fileurl":""},{"id":180492,"heading":"Moles n Trolls","article":""what ??? Chomsky a troll ?"\r\nAs may you well ask.\r\nNo. He is more of a mole. Any other questions?\r\nOh yeah. Me. I'm just a sheepdog.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 21:23:27","modified":"2006-09-30 21:23:27","fileurl":""},{"id":180494,"heading":"words about love","article":"\r\n[ Hex becomes aggressive in his sexual frustration]\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/03\/148820_comment.php#148857\r\n'Well I don't see any complaints or hiding of said "attacks" on my part, my fresh baked love dumpling. \r\n\r\nBut I do see that whatever crawled up your little pleasure cave is STILL \r\nTHERE. \r\nBill must be quite the fuzzy huggy squeezing big ol'pokey bear to keep you so satisfied.. \r\nAnd while I think it's great that you have someone to "drive" your agenda, airing your "issues" on here may not be the most appropriate brothel setting \r\n\r\nright "neighbor" ? '\r\n\r\nYou betcha there sailor. Your mother says to bring some more ice.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 21:51:57","modified":"2006-09-30 21:51:57","fileurl":""},{"id":180495,"heading":"Mole, troll","article":"Mole (espionage), a spy working under deep cover\r\n\r\nNone of us are "working under deep cover". We wear our Zionism on our sleeve, thank you.\r\n\r\nMole or troll? Me? Neither. I'm just a begonia","author":"or droll?","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 21:51:59","modified":"2006-09-30 21:51:59","fileurl":""},{"id":180496,"heading":"okay then, jr. Mole","article":"I must explain. \r\n\r\nChomsky's a major mole , Tia & Co. are trolls and Hex\/TW switch off, ya know what I mean.\r\nnudge nudge","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 21:57:04","modified":"2006-09-30 21:57:04","fileurl":""},{"id":180498,"heading":"Oh, and little miss properpuss","article":"Well, Tia how'd you like this link? From your little boy.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2005\/07\/131812_comment.php#131870\r\nyou never did offer any comments....\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 22:01:03","modified":"2006-09-30 22:01:03","fileurl":""},{"id":180500,"heading":"No comments?","article":"I'm a recent migrant, since they rendered my local IMC unfit for human habitation.\r\n\r\nOk- so Hex calls for "proper" behavior and he's as sexist as they come. Sometimes background info is helpful. But, you know sometimes people can change. I've seen it. Parenthood, illness, deep trauma, travel- all have the capacity to reach into a person's soul. What are the odds he is any different now?\r\nRemote, huh?\r\n\r\n With his threats of tracking and intimidation, he seems like everything you accuse the Zionists of....","author":"i wasn't "here" in 2005","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 22:26:31","modified":"2006-09-30 22:26:31","fileurl":""},{"id":180502,"heading":"Tia, me lassie","article":"Please don't play dingbat.\r\nOf course he does. He * is* one of you.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 22:43:16","modified":"2006-09-30 22:43:16","fileurl":""},{"id":180504,"heading":"he's using old posts out of context intentionally","article":"> he's as sexist as they come\r\n\r\nhe's linking only to pictures, which are out of context - you would have to start by reading the entire threads then also consider who the pictures are directed to - people that advocate the mass murder of whole classes of people yet are sexually uptight\r\n\r\nthe context was to play on the sexual uptightness to make them see the non-humanity of the mass murder by class attitude\r\n\r\nsheepdog is *well aware of this* as I explained it to him several times and even tried to get him to participate\r\n\r\nbut he was *too busy accusing me of being the very people I was directing the sexually loaded messages to*\r\n\r\nalso what's he's linked to is the very "worst" example he could find - the squeeze animated GIF *is* the most "sexist" (in isolation not considering the context I just explained) image I ever posted towards women\r\n\r\nso not only is he intentionally taking it out of context he's also using the worst example possible and implying it represents the tip of an iceburg when it does not\r\n\r\nhe's demonizing me in other words...\r\n\r\nIf I had posted anything outrageous (like rated X) *it would be hidden* and if you notice none of the comments or pictures I posted are..\r\n\r\nthere was only 1 hidden thread my entire 4 years being here, and I was informed by IMC staff in e-mail it was a mistake and is UN-hidden when also being invited back here specifically and directly\r\n\r\nnone of the pictures or comments I have ever posted that sheepdog's trying to imply are bad, are hidden\r\n\r\nwhile 70-80 and counting of *his are* - just on here alone, not even counting dozens of other IMC's\r\n\r\napparently I personify the problem he has with this fact, and so he's got a *major axe to grind* with me - and just keeps chopping away, even when people ignore him as you can see he's been doing all day here for example...\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 23:12:20","modified":"2006-09-30 23:12:20","fileurl":""},{"id":180505,"heading":"Absolutely not","article":"As a card carrying member of the ZIonist conspiracy, I can attest that TW and Hex are not "ours".\r\n\r\nBTW, we are having our annual conference on Monday. Sorry, folks. It won't be a potluck this time.","author":"I don't want him. You can have him.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 23:13:08","modified":"2006-09-30 23:13:08","fileurl":""},{"id":180508,"heading":"little Hex -my mean ol Dad told me once...","article":"He said, " son, sometimes people are just assholes, like Hex \r\nWell my goodness, he SAYS they're out of context but dares not show the links or the specific examples like I have.\r\nCare to slep up and see for yourself?","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-09-30 23:46:47","modified":"2006-09-30 23:46:47","fileurl":""},{"id":180509,"heading":"key point - none are hidden","article":"Care to slep up and see for yourself?\r\n\r\nsee what ? that none of my posts including pictures are hidden ?\r\n\r\nwhile ~ 80 of yours are ?\r\n\r\nwhat does that mean ?\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:10:50","modified":"2006-10-01 00:10:50","fileurl":""},{"id":180510,"heading":"It means you're an idiot","article":"Show these hidden links.\r\nLet them see for themself the forgeries and other excuses.\r\nI mean if you think 'I eat hairless Chinese boys' you are a retard.\r\nGo ahead.\r\nI think I made one that should have been hidden.\r\nCan you guess which one?","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:17:12","modified":"2006-10-01 00:17:12","fileurl":""},{"id":180511,"heading":"Well, Hex and Dawg","article":"in the face of your "oneupmanship"\r\n\r\nWell, productive dialog may never have actually existed.\r\n\r\nMaybe we should get back on topic and let the past be the past....\r\n\r\nWe can all try and behave better.\r\n\r\nIncluding me.\r\n\r\n","author":"productive "dialog" has died","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:26:39","modified":"2006-10-01 00:26:39","fileurl":""},{"id":180512,"heading":"did you type this?","article":"did you really type this?\r\n"key point - none are hidden\r\nby hex Friday, Sep. 29, 2006 at 8:10 PM \r\n\r\nCare to slep up and see for yourself? \r\n\r\nsee what ? that none of my posts including pictures are hidden ? \r\n\r\nwhile ~ 80 of yours are ? \r\n\r\nwhat does that mean ? "\r\n************\r\nJust paste this on your address:\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/?keyword=hex&author=hex&comments=yes&display=f&year=&month=&day=&medium=&language_id=&category=0&sort=&limit=200\r\nIt just means \r\n1 you are a lying sack of shit\r\n2 you are too stupid to draw breath.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:30:50","modified":"2006-10-01 00:30:50","fileurl":""},{"id":180513,"heading":"again, Tia, kiss off here","article":"I'm busy working.\r\nThere is an asshole mole to deflower.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:38:31","modified":"2006-10-01 00:38:31","fileurl":""},{"id":180515,"heading":"that reminds me...","article":"some duct tape him so he doesn't explode.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 00:45:28","modified":"2006-10-01 00:45:28","fileurl":""},{"id":180525,"heading":"not quite - and I agree","article":"the search you linked only shows *entire threads that were hidden* that I commented in\r\n\r\nI'm taking about *my comments themselves* being hidden - (just individual comments can be hidden)\r\n\r\nwe've covered this before - I've pointed out this very fact specifically already...\r\n\r\nagain - intentionally ignoring to demonize\r\n\r\nI very rarely start threads - more than 99 % of my posts are only comments in other people's threads\r\n\r\nwhen the thread gets hidden *all* the comments are hidden as well...\r\n\r\nbut there are cases where *just individual comments* are hidden - and a search reveals none of mine are..\r\n\r\n\r\nthis axe grinding is off-topic and non-productive, yet as we see sheepdog thinks it's *perfectly fine* - AS LONG AS HE'S ONE ONE DOING IT...\r\n\r\nhe's got one set of standards for himself, and an entirely different set for everyone else\r\n\r\nthe video shows electrical arcing in three places including *below the level where the melting is occuring* - thermite melts and flows down - it does not flow up..\r\n\r\nthe color is orange\/yellow heat - steel has to be white hot to melt and flow, the electrical arcing is blue-white hot and *flickering*\r\n\r\nthermite does not flicker\r\n\r\nthere's globs of molten aluminium falling at just barely red heat and striking the outer supports then breaking up (which exposes fresh metal to the air) which then burst into combustion and leave white oxide ash trails\r\n\r\nsteel doesn't melt below white heat and leaves *black* oxide ash trails\r\n\r\nin the original video the camera keeps moving around but if you look closely - not even relying on my slow-mo version and stills - you will see exactly these features\r\n\r\n3 electrical arcs flickering at blue-white heat\r\n\r\nthe melting is at orange\/yellow heat - not white heat that steels requires to flow\r\n\r\nthe white ash trails and globs combusting as they fall with white oxide ash trails\r\n\r\nsome white oxide smoke is also visible\r\n\r\nsteel cannot make white ash - it only makes BLACK ash\r\n\r\n(the black oxide becomes red on exposure to humidity and air - characteristic RUST color)\r\n\r\nit takes time to even become red - it starts out black\r\n\r\nsheepdog doesn't even know the difference between nitrate and chlorate - basic chemistry as taught in school\r\n\r\nyet he claims to be an expert and claims to see things we can't see even when the facts and features are explained point-by-point and clearly shown in slow-mo and outlined in stills\r\n\r\nso there's the topic\r\n\r\nit's not thermite - it's electrical arcing melting aluminium\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 01:50:10","modified":"2006-10-01 01:50:10","fileurl":""},{"id":180529,"heading":"what's missing here?","article":"Maybe it the links and quotes to fill the cavity in the previous post which is MT.\r\nMaybe some more memory lane for the Whizz here with all kinds of links and quotes from the lying, twisted creepy individual Hex.\r\nhere's one for ya that is 'out of context' alright,\r\nThis is after about the third time he wants my personal info\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/hidden.php?id=151186#152623\r\n\r\n"-stupid dog pictures -\r\nby Sheepdog Saturday, Apr. 01, 2006 at 7:21 PM \r\nThat does it. \r\nNow I'm hurt. \r\n\r\nBut what does that have to do with Israel, their GENOCIDE practiced upon the People of Occupied Palestine, their undeclared nuclear arsenal. their dangerous instigation of wars through dual citizen members of this administration and their asshole moles that ride this wire to derail threads?\r\n\r\nReport this post as: add your comments\r\n\r\nThe following post has status hidden:\r\n"what does that have to do with"\r\nby Hex \u2022 Saturday, Apr. 01, 2006 at 7:27 PM\r\n\r\n145297main_calvingstill_lg.jpg, image\/jpeg, 600x450\r\n\r\n'nothin much \r\n\r\nhey - I just got a picture that shows the ice melting ^ "\r\n*********\r\n\r\n[yeah real serious mole here.]\r\n\r\nBYW after 300 posts, most of which I'm going to archive, I think this is it.\r\nI've done my job and now you can play w\/ Tina, BECKY and the rest of your weasel inmates.\r\nSee ya\r\n\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 02:43:17","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:08","fileurl":""},{"id":180531,"heading":"dog-gone it.","article":"I forgot just one little muse before I set the sentries and clear the fields of fire.\r\njust this one tiny thought.\r\n [?]\r\nwe've been discussing you in chat\r\nby hex Friday, Sep. 29, 2006 at 2:57 PM \r\n\r\n\r\n[16:09:06] << I think he should change his name to Jeffery Dahmer :) \r\n[16:46:14] >> what the hell. \r\n[16:46:15] >> lol \r\n[16:46:34] << I don't know how to respond to that \r\n[16:48:41] << I haven't replied since he said that \r\n[16:51:26] >> there is no response to that... \r\n[16:51:42] >> hes on some wierd 'TRIP' \r\n[16:51:46] << not that I can think of :) \r\n[16:52:08] << he's always like that - (he's a mental case) \r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/09\/178626_comment.php#180456\r\n\r\n***[ nah, they couldn\u2019t be just using \u2018gabby chat\u2019 now would they be? I mean would they talk about stuff we can\u2019t see? On a private comm: channel\/link\/string\/ etc....\r\nNow what does that imply? Goodness maybe they know each other pretty well! ]\r\nOr maybe not. \r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 03:04:13","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:08","fileurl":""},{"id":180532,"heading":"just an error","article":"The following post has status hidden: \r\n"what does that have to do with" \r\nby Hex \u2022 Saturday, Apr. 01, 2006 at 7:27 PM \r\n\r\n145297main_calvingstill_lg.jpg, image\/jpeg, 600x450 \r\n\r\n'nothin much \r\n\r\nhey - I just got a picture that shows the ice melting ^ " \r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-10-01 03:05:25","modified":"2013-11-11 00:45:08","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/145297main_calvingstill_lg.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/145297main_calvingstill_lg.jpg"}},{"id":180533,"heading":"you seem a bit - paranoid","article":"the chat is hamachi - I already told you that\r\n\r\nhere's let me help you ;\r\n\r\nHamachi : Stay Connected\r\n\r\nHamachi is a zero-configuration virtual private networking (VPN) application\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/hamachi.cc\/\r\n\r\n(it has chat built-in)\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 03:10:09","modified":"2006-10-01 03:10:09","fileurl":""},{"id":180535,"heading":"but that's still so cute","article":"Just a bit paranoid? nah. \r\nHave fun w\/your chatmate(s)!\r\none for the road?\r\n\r\nThis one is a classic. Hex does the nose dive into the weapons manufactures but hole, covering up the obscenity of DU contamination.\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/hidden.php?id=153410#153507\r\nso bite me.","author":"Sheepdog thinks it's sweet.","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 03:27:44","modified":"2006-10-01 03:27:44","fileurl":""},{"id":180536,"heading":"Have fun w\/your chatmate(s)!","article":"yeah - I will, all 10 of them :)\r\n\r\nhave fun being all alone, bitter and paranoid\r\n\r\nI know you like it that way...\r\n\r\nparanoia does have it's uses - keeps everyone away\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-10-01 04:22:57","modified":"2006-10-01 04:22:57","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/my_hamachi_chat.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/09\/my_hamachi_chat.jpg"}},{"id":180537,"heading":"dawg: "[Hex\/TW] *is* one of you"","article":"Okay, that tears it. I don't know if you're a carrot or a cuke, but you're definitely a frikkin vegetable. \r\n\r\nWhat could be your motive here? I'm mystified. \r\n\r\nDo you really believe this (i.e. are you actually a paranoid psychotic)? \r\n\r\nHave you set out to make every thread here totally inane and pointless so that nobody will read them (i.e. are *YOU* the mole)? \r\n\r\nIs this a form of "humor" shaped by \r\n1) every recreational drug you've used for the past 40 years (clearly about four semi-trailer loads) \r\n2) the chemical soup of Kamchatka vodka, homegrown, and a crystal meth hangover that your brain is presently sloshing around in, and \r\n3) the el creep-O textbook narcissist pattern of dragging other people into "jokes" that can't possibly amuse anyone but you (which makes them even funnier -- for you)? This would be exacerbated by 1) and 2)\r\n\r\nOr do you just feel beset from all sides now and so you're fighting back with your idea of psy-war tactics?\r\n\r\nUh, whatever it is, it's not working","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 04:28:53","modified":"2006-10-01 04:28:53","fileurl":""},{"id":180540,"heading":"Hey hex, I've calmed down now","article":"Somebody brought up depleted uranium earlier and I have a hypothesis you may appreciate\r\n\r\nActivists are hyping the radiological hazard posed by dispersed DU, but this is really mostly hysteria driven by the word "radioactive." U-238 is an ά-emitter with a half-life of 4.5 billion years. It has to be absorbed into your body for its radiation to pose a clear danger (paper, light cloth, and skin all stop ά-particles in their tracks), and it's just not "hot" at all to begin with. People should worry more about mercury from coal plants\r\n\r\nI'm not saying DU is not a cause for alarm \r\n\r\nI'm saying the true cause for alarm, and for its observed effects on public health, is NOT its radioactivity. It's MUCH WORSE than that \r\n\r\nWhen DU burns in air, the most abundant oxide produced is U3O8, which can react further with oxygen to form UO3 -- uranium trioxide. None of the uranium oxides are anything you want to absorb, but this last one is ***FAR_AND_AWAY*** the worst. It's a *hexavalent* metal compound, falling into an extremely nasty class of toxins that are mutagenic, teratogenic, and carcinogenic in TRACE AMOUNTS, and it's not because of their radioactivity. \r\n\r\nChemical toxins, not radiological ones, have never ceased to be the nastiest ones out there, residual Cold War hysteria notwithstanding. I'll ingest 10 mcg of DU over 10 mcg of batrachotoxin ANY DAY http:\/\/chemweb.calpoly.edu\/cbailey\/377\/PapersF2000\/Caroline\/ \r\n\r\nThe following from: http:\/\/tinyurl.com\/rqzgo\r\nEarly studies of depleted uranium aerosol exposure assumed that uranium combustion product particles would quickly settle out of the air[34] and thus could not affect populations more than a few kilometers from target areas[35], and that such particles, if inhaled, would remain undissolved in the lung for a great length of time and thus could be detected in urine[36]. But according to Drs. Jofu Mishima, Maryanne Parkhurst, and John R. Johnson of the Army's Pacific Northwest Laboratory proving grounds, and Joe DiCicco and Dr. Phil Goldberg of the NRC, those studies \r\nIGNORED URANIUM TRIOXIDE GAS \r\n-- also known as uranyl oxide gas, or UO3(g) -- which is formed during uranium combustion (R.J. Ackermann, et al., "Free Energies of Formation of Gaseous Uranium, Molybdenum, and Tungsten Trioxides," Journal of Physical Chemistry, vol. 64 (1960) pp. 350-355, "gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen." U3O8 being the dominant aerosol combustion product[37].) Uranyl ion contamination has been found on and around depleted uranium targets[38]. UO3 gas remains dissolved in the atmosphere for weeks, but as a monomolecular gas is absorbed immediately upon inhalation, leading to accumulation in tissues including gonocytes (testes[39]) and white corpuscles[40], but virtually no residual presence in urine other than what might be present from coincident particulate exposure. However, even if true, there are no studies showing that Gulf War veterans received exposures high enough to result in potential harm.\r\n\r\nYeah, I'll bet there are "no studies showing" this! That's cuz the Pentagon KNEW BETTER THAN TO FUND THEM!","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-01 05:27:21","modified":"2006-10-01 05:27:21","fileurl":""},{"id":180641,"heading":"About 'flake shit'","article":""there's a flake crowd that uses the "aerosol" as a buzzword and goes on to claim the global dispersial of DU in this form" \r\n\r\nI agree that this is flaky dingbat alarmism. I don't think my source was a flaky dingbat, however, and if uranyl ions do indeed remain airborne for weeks, then it's entirely possible for them to wind up on other continents ... but BIG DEAL! At a concentration of, what? One molecule per square mile? Meanwhile the planet is being trashed irrevocably by ten times too many people living on it, but this hysterical "intercontinental" DU phantom (it's *almost* as idiotic as chemtrails ;-) is the sort of thing holding people's concern? And these gibbering idiots are the actual do-goodies supposedly "saving the planet??" \r\n\r\nOh shit, the planet really IS fucked, isn't it??!!!\r\n\r\nIt's also a vivid display of the antagonism between truthfulness and politics. I doubt that the people saying this even give a shit whether it's true or not. This is just a *tactic* they've settled on for manipulating others into joining them in the effort to ban DU munitions. While I approve of that cause, this sort of "noble" dishonesty just makes me want to puke in their hair. Man, get the fuck away from me, you self-important do-goody saps! Do I look as stupid as what you see in a mirror?\r\n\r\nWhat you call "flake shit" I would describe as the memetics of reactionary dumb-ass politics, and it's definitely a pet peeve of mine ","author":"TW","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-02 01:37:39","modified":"2006-10-02 01:37:39","fileurl":""},{"id":180646,"heading":"Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols","article":"Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols: a review from an epidemiological perspective.\r\n Environ Health. 2005 Aug 26;4:17.\r\n\r\n * Hindin R,\r\n * Brugge D,\r\n * Panikkar B.\r\n\r\nUniversity of Massachusetts School of Public Health and Health Sciences, Amherst, MA 01003, USA. rita@schoolph.umass.edu\r\n\r\nBACKGROUND: Depleted uranium is being used increasingly often as a component of munitions in military conflicts. Military personnel, civilians and the DU munitions producers are being exposed to the DU aerosols that are generated. METHODS: We reviewed toxicological data on both natural and depleted uranium. We included peer reviewed studies and gray literature on birth malformations due to natural and depleted uranium. Our approach was to assess the "weight of evidence" with respect to teratogenicity of depleted uranium. RESULTS: Animal studies firmly support the possibility that DU is a teratogen. While the detailed pathways by which environmental DU can be internalized and reach reproductive cells are not yet fully elucidated, again, the evidence supports plausibility. To date, human epidemiological data include case examples, disease registry records, a case-control study and prospective longitudinal studies. DISCUSSION: The two most significant challenges to establishing a causal pathway between (human) parental DU exposure and the birth of offspring with defects are: i) distinguishing the role of DU from that of exposure to other potential teratogens; ii) documentation on the individual level of extent of parental DU exposure. Studies that use biomarkers, none yet reported, can help address the latter challenge. Thoughtful triangulation of the results of multiple studies (epidemiological and other) of DU teratogenicity contributes to disentangling the roles of various potentially teratogenic parental exposures. This paper is just such an endeavor. CONCLUSION: In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU.\r\n\r\nUndiagnosed illnesses and radioactive warfare.\r\nCroat Med J. 2003 Oct;44(5):520-32.\r\n\r\n * Durakovic A.\r\n\r\nUranium Medical Research Center, 3430 Connecticut Avenue\/11854, Washington, DC 20008, USA. asaf@umrc.net\r\n\r\nThe internal contamination with depleted uranium (DU) isotopes was detected in British, Canadian, and United States Gulf War veterans as late as nine years after inhalational exposure to radioactive dust in the Persian Gulf War I. DU isotopes were also identified in a Canadian veteran's autopsy samples of lung, liver, kidney, and bone. In soil samples from Kosovo, hundreds of particles, mostly less than 5 microm in size, were found in milligram quantities. Gulf War I in 1991 resulted in 350 metric tons of DU deposited in the environment and 3-6 million grams of DU aerosol released into the atmosphere. Its legacy, Gulf War disease, is a complex, progressive, incapacitating multiorgan system disorder. The symptoms include incapacitating fatigue, musculoskeletel and joint pains, headaches, neuropsychiatric disorders, affect changes, confusion, visual problems, changes of gait, loss of memory, lymphadenopathies, respiratory impairment, impotence, and urinary tract morphological and functional alterations. Current understanding of its etiology seems far from being adequate. After the Afghanistan Operation Anaconda (2002), our team studied the population of Jalalabad, Spin Gar, Tora Bora, and Kabul areas, and identified civilians with the symptoms similar to those of Gulf War syndrome. Twenty-four-hour urine samples from 8 symptomatic subjects were collected by the following criteria: 1) the onset of symptoms relative to the bombing raids; 2) physical presence in the area of the bombing; and 3) clinical manifestations. Control subjects were selected among the sympotom-free residents in non-targeted areas. All samples were analyzed for the concentration and ratio of four uranium isotopes, (234)U, (235)U, (236)U and (238)U, by using a multicollector, inductively coupled plasma ionization mass spectrometry. The first results from the Jalalabad province revealed urinary excretion of total uranium in all subjects significantly exceeding the values in the nonexposed population. The analysis of the isotopic ratios identified non-depleted uranium. Studies of specimens collected in 2002 revealed uranium concentrations up to 200 times higher in the districts of Tora Bora, Yaka Toot, Lal Mal, Makam Khan Farm, Arda Farm, Bibi Mahro, Poli Cherki, and the Kabul airport than in the control population. Uranium levels in the soil samples from the bombsites show values two to three times higher than worldwide concentration levels of 2 to 3 mg\/kg and significantly higher concentrations in water than the World Health Organization maximum permissible levels. This growing body of evidence undoubtedly puts the problem of prevention and solution of the DU contamination high on the priority list.","author":"there plenty more","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-02 01:48:22","modified":"2006-10-02 01:48:22","fileurl":""},{"id":180653,"heading":"the data I saw was even more concerning","article":"about non-depleted and virgin Uranium..\r\n\r\nre: the DU research you've quoted above\r\n\r\none thing I forgot to point out is in the declassified FOIA document they mentioned that even with the dozens of above-ground tests already done, the total amount radionuclides injected into the stratosphere while having global reach within 2 years, were very low and way below natural background levels\r\n\r\nI also enumerated in detail with figures what the sources of natural background radiation are (even showed a pie chart - of which the contribution from thermonuclear tests was only a thin slice, along with an interpolated addition pointing out the contribution by Uranium munitions as well)\r\n\r\nRadon is the single largest route of exposure for the average person and tobacco smoking is pretty significant as well..\r\n\r\n","author":"hex","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-10-02 02:25:04","modified":"2006-10-02 02:25:04","fileurl":""},{"id":191943,"heading":"Carpet burn temp - improper interpretation","article":"The point of that study johnk showed the link to ( http:\/\/www.epa.gov\/nhsrc\/pubs\/reportDioxinFuran050905.pdf ) was not to find at what temperature "wet carpet" would burn, and the number he quoted was not the temperature at which it burnt. \r\nRather, the carpet was placed in the secondary combustion chamber of a kiln incinerator which was being PRIMARILY FUELED BY NATURAL GAS, to see how practical it might be to dispose of contaminated carpet that way (the study was associated with the National Homeland Security Research Center). On some "runs" the carpet was wetted by deionized water, and then on other runs with the carpet wetted by simulated decontamination chemicals (10% bleach), to see if it would burn properly and cleanly, or whether it would create too many toxins. Since natural gas was being burned, the temperature quoted is not proof of how hot carpet burns. Moreover, if only the carpet was burned, it would not be the same as it burning in a building, as this is an incinerator environment, which means maximized controlled conditions for efficient combustion (and therefore higher temperatures). See the article on jet fuel on wikipedia where it matter of factly states that jet fuel's maximum burning temperature is 1796 F. (980 C.), but its "open air burning temperature" is a fraction of that - 500 to 599 F. (260 - 315 C.). My understanding is that the difference has to do with a proper amount of oxygen to feed the flame - air is far from the ideal oxygen source, so it still burns, but nowhere near as efficiently, and therefore nowhere near its maximum burning temperature. As to the speculation of charcoal being formed... it seems to me that would have to be much more of a two-step process, which could not happen in the hour to hour-and-a-half the buildings between the buildings being hit and going down, even if conditions were right to make it possible eventually. It seems this 9-11 charcoal would have to be created spontaneously and unintentionally, since even the low-tech man-made way of doing it was very deliberate and time-consuming, involving large conical piles of wood with built-in shafts and flues, then buried in soil (see wikipedia charcoal article). I acknowledge your contention that today people make it in an hour or so, but I'm not sure about that. I say that because this article about grilling discusses making your own charcoal, but mentions no such shortcut - http:\/\/bbq.about.com\/od\/charcoal\/a\/aa071997.htm . Granted, it only mentions one way, but if there were a much easier way I think it would be mentioned. It instead says making your own charcoal takes several days, and is necessarily slow, because otherwise ash would be created rather than charcoal. That is not a statement on how quick charcoal is made today in an industrial environment, for I do not know. Either way, we can certainly agree that is likely not applicable, as no one was trying to create an ideal industrial charcoal production environment on those floors of the WTC at the time. Without such deliberate set-up, your 9-11 charcoal would have to have been formed more like how another page describes man's likely first encounter with it - a tree toppled over in the aftermath of a naturally caused fire then gets partially buried while it is burning, and some of it turns to charcoal ( http:\/\/www.virtualweberbullet.com\/charcoal.html ). I don't think it likely an equivalent happened that day, let alone for long enough. But even if we did have the right conditions, I think it is very likely that the charcoal has to first be totally formed, and then relit to burn at higher heat of charcoal. Moreover, since charcoal was made by burying wood, it seems to indicate wood has to burn at a lot lower oxygen availability than would have been available on those WTC floors before it could create charcoal. \r\n\r\nNot sure if someone covered this, but it may be a helpful addition - Fahrenheit 451 - the temperature at which paper burns. Yes, I did verify it rather than just taking pop culture's (and Bradbury's) word for it. That is about 232 C. That may be the temp for in the open air, I'm not sure, but either way it is relatively low.","author":"Larry Dean","parent_id":178626,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2007-01-23 13:04:16","modified":"2007-01-23 13:04:16","fileurl":""}]}