Did You Know?
Know the Real Terrorists!!
A few things you are not supposed to know about Israel:
·\tDid you know that Israel have killed more that 8 hundred Palestinian children in the past four years?
·\tDid you know that Israel has devastated about three hundred houses in just four years thus making thousands of Palestinians homeless?
·\tDid you know that 90 years ago the Arabs of Palestine owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land? And that now the Jews own more than 80%?
·\tDid you know that Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?
·\tDid you know that the former Prime Minister of the Zionist entity, Sharon, is on the list of war criminals for killing thousands of innocent Palestinians?
·\tDid you know that four prime ministers of Israel, Begin, Shamir, Rabin, and Sharon have taken part in either bomb attacks on civilians, massacres of civilians, or forced expulsions of civilians from their villages?
·\tDid you know Sharon was held responsible for the massacre of more than 2, 750 Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila. The UN qualified the massacre by Sharon as GENOCIDE.
·\tDid you know Did you know Sharon's commando unit in 1953 razed the Palestinian village of Qibya killing all its citizens and bombed all the houses, mosque and schools.
·\tDid you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in the Zionist entity?
·\tDid you know that Palestinian license plates in Zionist entity are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?
·\tDid you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is given to about 400 settlers, while 15% must be divided among Hebron's 120,000 Palestinians?
·\tDid you know the United States awards the Israel $5 billion in aid each year?
·\tDid you know that yearly US aid to Israel exceeds the aid the US grants to the whole African continent?
·\tDid you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons?
·\tDid you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?
·\tDid you know that Israel currently occupies territories of two sovereign nations (Lebanon and Syria) in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
·\tDid you know that Israel has for decades routinely sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies?
·\tDid you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed by the IDF?
·\tDid you know that Israel refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
·\tDid you know that Israel routinely confiscates bank accounts, businesses, and land and refuses to pay compensation to those who suffer the confiscation?
·\tDid you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?
·\tDid you know that the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders, is the Jewish AIPAC?
·\tDid you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?
·\tDid you know that today's Israel sits on the former sites of more than 400 now-vanished Palestinian villages, and that the Israeli’s re- named almost every physical site in the country to cover up the traces?
·\tDid you know that it was not until 1988 that Israelis were barred from running \"Jews Only\" job ads?
·\tDid you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays two American public relations firms to promote Israel to Americans?
·\tDid you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party -- Molodet -- which advocates expelling all Palestinians from the occupied territories?
·\tDid you know that Israel’s settlement-building increased in the eight years since Oslo?
·\tDid you know that settlement building under Barak doubled compared to settlement building under Netanyahu?
·\tDid you know that Israel once dedicated a postage stamp to a man who attacked a civilian Palestinian bus and killed several people?
·\tDid you know that recently declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948?
·\tDid you know that torture by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners is more brutal than what happened in Abu Ghreeb in Iraq?
·\tDid you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?
·\tAnd finally do you know who the real terrorist now is?
<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"http:\/\/www.palestine-info.co.uk\/am\/publish\/","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"10 Palestinian martyrs in the latest Israeli massacre in Gaza\r\nGaza \u2013 At least ten Palestinian people, including 3 children and 2 women were killed and 40 other were wounded Friday afternoon in four separate attacks by Israeli occupation forces on various parts of the Gaza Strip according to Palestinian sources.\r\nJun 9, 2006, 19:28\r\n","numcomment":214,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2006\/06\/163213.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":163230,"heading":"PhDs","article":""Did you know Arabs lie about Jews all the time, and much of the above list falls into this category?"\r\n
\r\nOf course you did, but let's have a look at just one hilarious point in the above list:\r\n
"Did you know that Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world? "<\/i>
\r\n\r\nMust be easy to get then...\r\n
\r\nWith all those super-smart Palestinians<\/b>, it still doesn't explain why there are a mere 12 Million Jews in the entire world yet they have received 169 Nobel Prizes. However, the Muslims number 1.4 BILLION or 117 times the number of Jews! \r\n
\r\nBased upon this 117:1 Muslim-to-Jewish ratio, one might expect the Muslims to have 22,260 Nobel Laureates.\r\nThe Muslims however only have SEVEN! \r\n
\r\nOnly seven. Of course One of them [Arafat] was a mass murderer.\r\n
\r\nSo let's have a slow clap for all the PhD wielding Palestinians and hope they can use their easily acquired skills for something more useful than planning new and innovative ways to murder Jews... ","author":"TH","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2006-06-11 03:14:10","modified":"2006-06-11 11:32:16","fileurl":""},{"id":163231,"heading":"There they go again.","article":"","author":"this is Zionism","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-11 03:25:21","modified":"2006-06-11 03:25:21","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hadilweepingbyherfathersdeadbody.jpgmylydp.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hadilweepingbyherfathersdeadbody.jpgmylydp.jpg"}},{"id":163246,"heading":"cut n paste propaganda","article":"\r\nThis list is a load of crap.\r\nA few things you are not supposed to know about Israel:\r\n\r\n\u00b7 Did you know that Israel have killed more that 8 hundred Palestinian children in the past four years?\r\n\r\nDid you know that of the Palestinain "children" killed, over 80% were older teenage boys? Maybe the correct term is child soldiers. Maybe instead we should be asking why the PA is encouraging the use of child soldiers?\r\n\r\n\r\n\u00b7 Did you know that Israel has devastated about three hundred houses in just four years thus making thousands of Palestinians homeless?\r\n\r\nThree hundred homes making thousands homeless. \r\nDo you know that many of these homes were built illegally and without permits? Many of these homes were involved in terrorist and smuggling activities. \r\n\r\n\u00b7 Did you know that 90 years ago the Arabs of Palestine owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land? And that now the Jews own more than 80%?\r\n\r\nForgetting about Jordan, huh? That a big hunk of the mandate. Forgetting that the Jewish returning to Israel BOUGHT the land?\r\n\r\nI'm particularly curious about the PhD point- if Israel is really an apartheid state, how could the Palestinians have achieved this level of educational competance? Where are the colleges they are attending? Where is the money coming from? Arguments are made regularly on Indymedia about the "level of desperation" of the Palestinian people- if this statistic is true, it certainly diminishes the poor poor starving desperate Palestinian with no hope and no choice but to become a suicide bomber excuse we've been getting\r\n\r\nI could go point by point over this bit of cut and paste propaganda, but I'd rather drink my coffee\r\n","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 11:32:33","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:51","fileurl":""},{"id":163250,"heading":"hehe","article":""Did you know that 90 years ago the Arabs of Palestine owned 97.5% of the land"\r\n\r\nNo I didn't, 'cause it's a blatant lie. The local Arabs owned in fact about 3% of the land and the remainder besides the Jewish owned territory was "owned" by the Ottoman crown occupiers.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 11:38:02","modified":"2006-06-11 11:38:02","fileurl":""},{"id":163252,"heading":"Talk about refried spam","article":"Well. we can always depend upon the zionist lobby to repuke the same propaganda that 'justifies' the invasion and colonization of Palestine.\r\nOver and over again.\r\nLike a parrot.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 12:12:13","modified":"2006-06-11 12:12:13","fileurl":""},{"id":163253,"heading":"Anti-Zionist face saving","article":"We can always count on rabid anti-Zionists to spout some of their tired lies whenever their spam gets outed.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 12:20:50","modified":"2006-06-11 12:20:50","fileurl":""},{"id":163256,"heading":"Dividing up the land","article":"Nearly 80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the Jewish National Home, as defined by the League of Nations, was severed by the British in 1921 and allocated to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was barred. The UN partitioned the remaining 20-odd percent of Palestine into two states. With Jordan\u2019s annexation of the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt\u2019s control of Gaza, Arabs controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate, while the Jewish State held a bare 17.5 percent.\r\n\r\nFrom JVL","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 12:31:20","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:51","fileurl":""},{"id":163260,"heading":"yeah","article":"So 'Lord' Rothchild pressured 'Lord' Balfor to give Palestine to the zionists.\r\n$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$\r\nToo bad it wasn't his to give away.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 12:43:46","modified":"2006-06-11 12:43:46","fileurl":""},{"id":163267,"heading":"From Ziff: The Rape of Palestine 1938","article":"This is from Ziff "The Rape of Palestine" (1938): \r\n\r\nMore from Ziff book:\r\n\r\n "the Arabs should feel compelled to free themselves from the despotic and feudal regimes under which all the Arab people suffer. In Arab countries, there is little in the way of liberty. Poverty and ignorance are endemic" \r\n\r\n"We should expect to find an exodus of Arabs from lands where Jews are settled. But exactly the opposite is true: it is precisely in the vicinity of those Jewish villages that Arab development is most marked. Arab Haifa, profiting from the Jewish boom grew from 1922 to 1936 by 130%, Jaffa by 80% and Jerusalem by 55%...In the vicinity of the Jewish villages Arab workers earn twice the wage paid in other parts of Palestine. \r\n\r\nOnce the poorest , sorriest population in this whole section of poverty stricken masses, the Arabs of Palestine are now the richest per capita of their race" \r\n\r\n\r\n"Fully 75% of the area in Jewish hands morever has not known the plough for centuries. The northern colonies in Galilee were built on land rendered impossible for life since roman times because of marsh and endemic disease. Tel Aviv was erected on sand dunes which were considered without monetary value. The great granary, the valley of Jezreel, now nestling so trim and green in the shining sun, wa sso deserted and pestilential when Jews bought it that it was said any bird trying to cross it would fall dead in its flight." \r\n\r\nDr. W.E. Blackstone, quoting the foremost authorities on international law, pointed out in 1891 that since the Jews never gave up their title to Palestine, the general "law of dereliction" could not hold in in their case; "for they never abandoned the land. They made no treaty; they did not even surrender. They simply succumbed, after the most desperate conflict, to the overwhelming power of the Romans...and were captured or enslaved...Since then, having no sovereign nor political head through whom they could speak, they have disputed the possession of their land by continued protest through their literature and their public and private worship...\r\nBlackstone quotes the outstanding leading legal luminaries of his day, who agree that the Jewish claim was legally, at least, sound that the Jewish claim is legally sound. He points out that according to the logical precedents established by such authorities as Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, Phillimore and others, "the forcible manner by which Israel has been kept out of the land, with no means of redress, is equivalent in principle to a continued state of war..."\r\nThe greatest legal authorities have agreed that according to the foundation principles of international law there is no basis for prescription against Israel... therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE"\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 12:54:38","modified":"2006-06-11 12:54:38","fileurl":""},{"id":163273,"heading":"Iron Wall. vs. Rape of Palestine.","article":"Read both texts.\r\nThen tell me which one seems to ring true.\r\nIt's up to the curious reader.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:04:47","modified":"2006-06-11 13:04:47","fileurl":""},{"id":163275,"heading":"Nothing can justify the slaughter of this innocent family","article":"Changing the subject wont bring them back to life.","author":"Zionists: murderers, thieves and liars","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:09:26","modified":"2006-06-11 13:09:26","fileurl":""},{"id":163276,"heading":"No Israelis danced in the street","article":"http:\/\/www.haaretz.com\/hasen\/spages\/724811.html\r\n\r\n7 Palestinian civilians killed when IDF shell hits Gaza beach \r\n \r\nBy Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies \r\n \r\nSeven Palestinians at a family picnic were killed Friday when an errant Israel Defense Forces artillery shell apparently slammed into a beach in the northern Gaza Strip. Some 40 others were wounded.\r\n\r\nA woman and two young children, aged six months and 18 months, as well as a young teenager were among the dead, medical officials said. All of the dead were believed to be related. The IDF apologized for the incident, saying it "regretted the strike on innocents." \r\n\r\nIn the wake of the shelling, the military wing of the ruling Palestinian Hamas party said that it would renew suicide bombings in Israel, ending the truce that the group declared last year. "The earthquake in the Zionist towns will start again and the aggressors will have no choice but to prepare their coffins or their luggage," Hamas militants declared in a leaflet. "The resistance groups... will choose the proper place and time for the tough, strong and unique response." (Read the entire article at the above link)\r\n\r\nBECKY: This tragic accident, which MAY have come from an Israeli missile (investigators have NOT ruled out a "work accident") was followed by the Israeli govt. expressing its deepest regrets, and by offering those injured rapid treatment at the superior Israeli hospitals.\r\n\r\nContrast this with the last Tel Aviv bombing which killed 5 and injured 50. The Palestinians danced in the street and named the suicide bombers "Martyrs for Jihad."\r\n\r\nThe reason the IDF was firing missiles on the beach was in an attempt to get those who WERE FIRING ROCKETS OVER THE BORDER INTO ISRAEL!!\r\n\r\nNone of this was mentioned in the lead article. Why not?\r\n\r\n \r\n","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:09:38","modified":"2006-06-11 13:13:43","fileurl":""},{"id":163277,"heading":"Advice from the Librarian","article":"The Iron Wall is a revisonist document. The Rape of Palestine is a historical document, written BEFORE Israel became a state. Big difference.\r\nYes, dear reader. First read the REAL history. Then read the Propaganda.","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:10:38","modified":"2006-06-11 13:10:38","fileurl":""},{"id":163279,"heading":"Nothing can justify lying ad infinitum","article":"Lying about the subject won't redeem anti-Zionists. ","author":"anti-Zionists: liars, thugs and murderers","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:15:20","modified":"2006-06-11 13:15:20","fileurl":""},{"id":163284,"heading":"Abu Abir of Hamas quote","article":""The Zionists and Israelis have opened the gates of hell by assassinating Abu Samhadana. The Zionist entity and Zionist settlements near Gaza will not feel security and safety any more. Our rockets will rain into the Zionist entity and our heroes will blow themselves up among their dirty bodies." --- Abu Abir Beit Hanoun,Gaza June 9, 2006 \r\n\r\nBECKY" According to Haartz, "Abu Samhadana, who also headed the Hamas government's Interior Ministry security force in the Gaza Strip, was killed in an air strike on a Palestinian militants' training camp in Gaza. Abu Samhadana was a key player in rocket attacks on Israel and a suspect in the fatal 2003 bombing of a U.S. convoy in the Gaza Strip."\r\n\r\nThat 2003 bombing of a U.S. convoy killed people who were on a humanitarian mission to interview student candidates in Gaza for the Rhodes Scholarship program. \r\n\r\nIsrael has every right, under the written agreements it signed with the Palestinian Authority in 1993, to enter the territories and to capture or even kill known terrorists who are plotting more attacks on innocent Israeli civilians.\r\n\r\nThe PA has taken no such action, and instead, fete and laud such terrorists. In a situation where the PA is failing to arrest, detain, try, or punish known terrorists, then the IDF as the fallback position, is authorized by law to enter PA territories in order to stop or capture combatants.\r\n\r\nNote the "dirty bodies" statement in the above quote. This is pure racism.\r\n","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-11 13:25:38","modified":"2006-06-11 13:25:38","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hamasrally2006.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hamasrally2006.jpg"}},{"id":163285,"heading":"The truth if the matter","article":"","author":"this is Zionism","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-11 13:25:54","modified":"2006-06-11 13:25:54","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hebron_checkpoint.jpg9sszsb.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/hebron_checkpoint.jpg9sszsb.jpg"}},{"id":163287,"heading":"sad","article":"\r\n"-anti-Zionists: liars, thugs and murderers -"\r\nWhy must the zionists turn reality into their black is white aspect?\r\nBecause of the reality of the brutality. No rhyme intended.\r\nInversion of the facts on the ground is an essential part of the propaganda from 'Israel', the artificial and imposed by force construct.\r\nThe Pirate state.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:29:23","modified":"2006-06-11 13:29:23","fileurl":""},{"id":163288,"heading":"Stroke your ego some more","article":"How can you be sad when you delight in all those lies you and your buddy churn out that never stand up to scrutiny? \r\nYou might want to consider launching an Orwell Inversion non-profit.\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:33:20","modified":"2006-06-11 13:33:20","fileurl":""},{"id":163289,"heading":"There are no "Jewish" license plates","article":"FROM ABOVE LIST: "\u00b7 Did you know that Palestinian license plates in Zionist entity are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?"\r\n\r\nBECKY: FALSE!! The license plates are color-coded to show who is a CITIZEN OF ISRAEL and who is not. Israeli Arabs (20% of the population and Muslim) have Israeli plates too. Also, religion is NOT the determining factor. Citizenship is.\r\n\r\nFinally, some Palestinians (especially cab drivers and others) can apply to a sticker which allows them to drive on Israeli-only roads. They must fill out a form, clear a security check, and be issued the sticker.","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 13:34:38","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:51","fileurl":""},{"id":163291,"heading":"Another photo of a checkpoint","article":"And I understand the average wait-time at the Kalandia checkpoint is 45 seconds.","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-11 13:43:19","modified":"2006-06-11 13:43:19","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/idf-checkpoint.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/idf-checkpoint.jpg"}},{"id":163296,"heading":""Why must the zionists turn reality into their black is white aspect?"","article":"They learned from their masters:\r\n\r\n" . . . when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it." - Joseph Goebbels, 12 January 1941, Die Zeit ohne Beispiel\r\n","author":"easy to explain","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:00:45","modified":"2006-06-11 14:00:45","fileurl":""},{"id":163299,"heading":""They learned from their masters: "","article":"The anti-zionists learned that tactic from their mentors and masters: \r\n\r\n" . . . when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it." - Joseph Goebbels, 12 January 1941, Die Zeit ohne Beispiel ","author":"heard it before","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:09:37","modified":"2006-06-11 14:09:37","fileurl":""},{"id":163301,"heading":"Not a rebuttal","article":"This is Zionism.","author":"more gibberish to distract you","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-11 14:22:18","modified":"2006-06-14 19:11:34","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/injured_girl.jpg9sszsb.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/injured_girl.jpg9sszsb.jpg"}},{"id":163303,"heading":"That's shock value propaganda","article":"What you posted really depicts Palestinism.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:30:41","modified":"2006-06-11 14:30:41","fileurl":""},{"id":163305,"heading":"collective punishment","article":"The collective punishment of innocent Palestinianis like when the Nazis unleashed the pogrom of Kristallnacht to avenge the murder of a single German by a single Jew.\r\n\r\n","author":"this is the Zionist mentality","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:41:46","modified":"2006-06-14 19:11:50","fileurl":""},{"id":163306,"heading":"Balderdash","article":"Duh, slobber, duh.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:51:04","modified":"2006-06-11 14:51:04","fileurl":""},{"id":163307,"heading":"oh, really?","article":"How is the collective punishment of Palestinians and the collective punishment of of Jews any different?","author":"so, tell us","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:53:08","modified":"2006-06-11 14:53:08","fileurl":""},{"id":163308,"heading":"just a quick","article":"So Nessie- do you agree with JA about collective punishment?\r\n\r\ncopied from: http:\/\/www.indybay.org\/news\/2005\/02\/1724226_comment.php#1724408\r\n\r\nadd your comments\r\nYO, AVRAM!\r\nby JA Tuesday, Mar. 01, 2005 at 8:01 AM\r\n\r\nPersonally, I *EXULT* everytime I see an Israeli Jew bit the dust. And the same goes for their American cousins! EVERY SINGLE JEW EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD is a just and appropriate target for anti-colonialist liberation! We need to start targeting *EVERY* synagogue, *EVERY* Jew community center, school and everywhere else that you racist devils preach and propogate your agenda.\r\n\r\nBOUT TO MEET YO MAKER, JEWBOY? HA, HA HA!!!!!!!!!! ","author":"question","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 14:55:51","modified":"2006-06-11 14:55:51","fileurl":""},{"id":163309,"heading":"No, you tell us","article":"How is your collective punishment of effectively branding 99.5% of American Jews racists for supporting Israel's existence in some form any different from David Duke's racism other than the 0.5% difference? \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 15:05:20","modified":"2006-06-11 15:05:20","fileurl":""},{"id":163325,"heading":""do you agree with JA about collective punishment?'","article":"I'm not the least bit convinced that JA wrote that. All the other anti-Zionists on Indymedia have their names forged. Why not him?\r\n\r\n>your collective punishment of effectively branding 99.5% of American Jews racists\r\n\r\nI dodn't say that. Gehrig did. I say, hate all racists, no matter what their ethinicity. so Ineither know nor care how many of them are Jews. A racist is a racist is a racist. Whether they are jews or non jews is irrelevant.\r\n\r\nNow answer *my* question:\r\n\r\nHow is the collective punishment of Palestinians and the collective punishment of of Jews any different?","author":"since you asked . . .","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:14:34","modified":"2006-06-11 18:14:34","fileurl":""},{"id":163331,"heading":"You're still lying","article":""I dodn't say that. Gehrig did. I say, hate all racists, no matter what their ethinicity. so Ineither know nor care how many of them are Jews. A racist is a racist is a racist. Whether they are jews or non jews is irrelevant. "\r\n\r\nYou said it. All I'm asking is for you to come out and admit it.\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:33:44","modified":"2006-06-11 18:33:44","fileurl":""},{"id":163332,"heading":""You said it."","article":"(1.) No I didn't. In fact, I have questioned gehrig's figuures repeatedly.\r\n\r\n(2.) What kind of people, when confronted with evidence of a war crim, try to divert your attention with an ad hominem?","author":"another Zionist lie","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:41:28","modified":"2006-06-11 18:41:28","fileurl":""},{"id":163336,"heading":"" have questioned gehrig's figuures repeatedly. "","article":"(1.) Yes he did. In fact, he claims he has questioned gehrig's figures repeatedly. \r\n\r\n(2.) What kind of person, when confronted with evidence that he's bullshitting, tries to divert your attention? \r\n","author":"another anti-Zionist lie","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:50:28","modified":"2006-06-11 18:50:28","fileurl":""},{"id":163338,"heading":"More gibberish","article":"What kind of people, when confronted with evidence of war crimes, tries to divert your attention with gibberish, lies, forgeries and ad hominems?","author":"there they go again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:55:22","modified":"2006-06-11 18:55:22","fileurl":""},{"id":163339,"heading":"some","article":"I'm not the least bit convinced that JA wrote that. All the other anti-Zionists on Indymedia have their names forged. Why not him?\r\n\r\nAnd the Zionists have had their names forged as well.\r\nFollow the original thread. Was it all a "forgery"? Since JA was participating all along, why didn't he say something about the alleged forgery. And since JA monitors this and all Indymedia sites regularly, he'd say something if this were a forgery.","author":"questions","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 18:58:09","modified":"2006-06-11 18:58:09","fileurl":""},{"id":163342,"heading":""And the Zionists"","article":"(1.) That's an unsubstantiated allegation.\r\n\r\n(2.) Either way, it's irrelevant\r\n\r\n(3.) Notice that they are still trying to change the subject, rather than answer the question:\r\n\r\nHow is the collective punishment of Palestinians and the collective punishment of of Jews any different?","author":"so what?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 19:00:43","modified":"2006-06-11 19:00:43","fileurl":""},{"id":163343,"heading":"Yet more gibberish","article":"What kind of people, when confronted with evidence of their malarky, try to divert your attention with gibberish, lies, forgeries, flame wars and ad hominems?\r\n","author":"there he goes again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 19:01:19","modified":"2006-06-11 19:01:19","fileurl":""},{"id":163346,"heading":""so what? "","article":">And the Zionists\r\n\r\n(1.) That's a substantiated allegation. \r\n\r\n(2.) Either way, it's relevant. \r\n\r\n(3.) Notice that he isstill trying to change the subject, rather than do justice for the evidence that JA hasn't distanced himself from the alleged forgery.","author":"heard it before","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 19:05:45","modified":"2006-06-11 19:05:45","fileurl":""},{"id":163351,"heading":"Project Mockingbecky- WE NEED A RACIST REPORT BUTTON","article":"this bit:\r\nPalestinians (especially cab drivers and others) can apply to a sticker which allows them to drive on Israeli-only roads.\r\n\r\nI like the fact that the 'separate but equal' ( I would laugh except for the misery it creates ) Israeli state now means that the 'equal' which was not normally available, can now by petitioned for special purposes.\r\nAnd taken away by a whim.\r\nLike the building permits.\r\nLike the homes and lives of any Palestinian.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 20:10:10","modified":"2006-06-11 20:10:10","fileurl":""},{"id":163354,"heading":"Why would you care about innocent Jewish lives?","article":"You rather ignore that the Palestinians are at war with Israel and therefore they think safety precautions must be taken. Jewish lives lost to Palestnian aggressors who had traveled on the same roads to commit an atrocity mean nothing to you.\r\n\r\nYup, we really do need a racist report button, to filter out someone like you. ","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 20:25:43","modified":"2006-06-11 20:25:43","fileurl":""},{"id":163357,"heading":"Zionazis can't deal w\/ reality","article":"Or a least they don't want others to see it as it is.\r\nMr, 'goated 'Jew' has to invert reality making the * Palestinians* the aggressors and invaders when history shows the opposite is true.\r\nSo...\r\n"Jewish lives lost to Palestnian aggressors" should read ( in view of the facts ) like this ... \r\nPalestinian lives lost to Zionist aggression.\r\nThis little historical reality must be covered over with lies.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 20:34:53","modified":"2006-06-11 20:34:53","fileurl":""},{"id":163390,"heading":"Who said we're nervious? You're a shrink?","article":"If you're really in the know, you should be able to back up your claim that their problem is a bug. Let's see the backup. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 22:53:37","modified":"2006-06-11 22:53:37","fileurl":""},{"id":163392,"heading":"Just be patient","article":"As soon as they're done with the work on the server, what happened will be self evident.","author":"calm down","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-11 22:58:48","modified":"2006-06-11 22:58:48","fileurl":""},{"id":163536,"heading":"Pallywood at its best","article":"Even wonder why\/how there happened to be loads of camera crews running on a regular beach at the very time a supposedly stray Israeli missile mistakenly hit it?\r\nCameras also running to a close up shot of a little girl screaming after her family was killed? Now the numbers of dead have ranged from 3-5-10 depending on which Palestinian source is quoted? That's pretty dam good luck to have a camera crew there waiting? Coincidental or staged? It's not the first time nor the last time as evidence has mounted in Europe and the US about the staged lie of Mohammed Al Durra's death in 2000 due to Israeli snipers... which ingnited the "spontaneous" Intifadah.\r\n \r\nHamas has been searching for a way to curb their own public's growing dislike of their rule - deal with the burgeoning Civil War with Fatah and start up the massive suicide campaign against Israel.\r\n \r\nGaza Beach Bombing: Another Pallywood Hoax?\r\nEvidence is mounting that the explosion on a Gaza beach that killed an indeterminate number of Palestinians was not caused by Israel: Israel denies firing shell that killed Palestinians.\r\nA top Israeli general says the country\u2019s armed forces didn\u2019t cause the explosion that killed eight Palestinians on Friday and ended the fragile ceasefire in the region.\r\n\r\nHamas, which leads the Palestinian Authority parliament, blamed the deaths on Tel Aviv as its military branch resumed attacks on Israel for the first time in 16 months.\r\n\r\nBut Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yoav Galant said Sunday the military can prove it wasn\u2019t Israeli fire that hit the beach in Gaza, killing eight people.\r\n\r\nGalant, who commands Israel\u2019s southern command, said Israel stopped firing 15 minutes before the explosion.\r\n\r\nThe Palestinian Authority has refused to cooperate with Israel\u2019s investigation, and now the Jerusalem Post reports that Hamas has destroyed the evidence at the site of the explosion: Palestinians: Hamas cleared site of Gaza explosion.\r\n\r\nWORLDWIDE MEDIA RUSH TO SLAM ISRAEL\r\n \r\nDespite suggestions that a single artillery shell was responsible, the (British) Guardian claimed:\r\n"a barrage of Israeli artillery shells rained down on a busy Gaza beach...",\r\nWhile the (British) Independent, without waiting for confirmation or otherwise, attributed the incident to\r\n"Israeli naval gunboats".\r\nThe possibility of a Qassam missile fired from Gaza itself has not yet been discounted and has been made more difficult to ascertain due to Palestinian refusals to cooperate with Israeli investigators.\r\n\r\nQassams (Palestinian Rockets) (coming from Gaza) have rained down on continuously on Sderot, Israel and other areas of the Negev, (Desert) striking (Israeli) residential buildings and schools, it is only due to immense luck that Israel has not already suffered multiple deaths and injuries as a result of such attacks. In the latest missile attacks, carried out by Hamas, an Israeli suffered critical injuries as a Qassam struck a school campus.\r\n\r\nThese attacks, despite their potential for mass casualties, are described by the BBC's Simon Wilson as "mainly symbolic".\r\n\r\nIsrael has also offered assistance to the Palestinians, including evacuating the wounded to Israeli hospitals, where a number are now being treated.\r\n\r\nAs Palestinians have continued to encourage or turn a blind eye to terrorist attacks and murders of Israeli civilians, while celebrating the culture of "martyrdom", Israel genuinely values human life and deeply regrets the deaths of Palestinian civilians.\r\n\r\nNO MORAL EQUIVALENCE\r\n\r\nWhen examining the circumstances behind the Gaza beach incident, it is worth looking at the wider context. An editorial in the Jerusalem Post excellently summarizes the Israeli situation:\r\n\r\nFirstly, Israel, while confronting an enemy publicly committed to maximizing civilian fatalities, seeks relentlessly to minimize such casualties even as it defends itself. Fatah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists deliberately aim to kill and maim civilians, both in disputed and purportedly non-disputed Israeli-controlled territory, and show little concern for any "collateral" damage such attacks may inflict on their own people. Israel, in absolute contrast, acts concertedly to thwart the terrorists, not to attack the civilians from whose residential areas the terror cells despicably operate. \r\n\r\nSecondly, in times of war and conflict, accidents happen. Israel is properly investigating Friday's incident; it genuinely wants to understand what happened to ensure that, if the IDF was responsible, lessons are learned and appropriate preventative steps taken. \r\n\r\nThirdly, and of crucial importance in understanding our often bloody reality, it is a simple and undeniable fact, and one that should go without saying but evidently must be repeated, that Israel would have no interest in, nor any need to be firing artillery shells or any other weaponry into the Gaza Strip were (it not that) Israeli (towns and cities) were coming under incessant (rocket fire) from Gaza.\r\n\r\nQassams (Palestinian Rockets) (coming from Gaza) have rained down on continuously on Sderot, Israel and other areas of the Negev, (Desert) striking (Israeli) residential buildings and schools, it is only due to immense luck that Israel has not already suffered multiple deaths and injuries as a result of such attacks. In the latest missile attacks, carried out by Hamas, an Israeli suffered critical injuries as a Qassam struck a school campus.\r\n\r\nThese attacks, despite their potential for mass casualties, are described by the BBC's Simon Wilson as "mainly symbolic".\r\n\r\nIsrael has also offered assistance to the Palestinians, including evacuating the wounded to Israeli hospitals, where a number are now being treated.\r\n\r\nAs Palestinians have continued to encourage or turn a blind eye to terrorist attacks and murders of Israeli civilians, while celebrating the culture of "martyrdom", Israel genuinely values human life and deeply regrets the deaths of Palestinian civilians.\r\n","author":"Allyson Rowen Taylor","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-12 22:54:56","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:52","fileurl":""},{"id":163560,"heading":""Israel denies"","article":"Only a fool takes Zionists at their word. Zionists are fundamentally dishonest people. Just look how they behave on Indymedia. The sign other people names every day. Sometimes it's blatant and obvious. Other times it's subtle and complex. But either way, a day doesn't go by without it. This is the Zionist mentality. They lie through their teeth as a matter of course. They have to, because the truth is not on their side. There is no honest defense of ethnic cleansing. So they lie and they forge. They also steal and kill. These are not nice people. They break the bones of little children for throwing stones. Would *you* want people like that for neighbors? ","author":"so what?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 01:05:20","modified":"2006-06-14 19:13:30","fileurl":""},{"id":163561,"heading":"Killing children, how Israel lives with itself","article":"\r\n\r\n\tfrom Jews sans frontieres It's good for Jews! Except of course it isn't. Hamas have said that they will now end their self-imposed ceasfire. I'm not being original by saying that this is precisely what Israel wants. It's a routine as old as Israel's self-justifications.\r\n\r\n<\/html>\r\n","author":"repost","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2006-06-13 01:39:34","modified":"2006-06-13 01:39:34","fileurl":""},{"id":163566,"heading":"...And they have horns, and they eat babies....","article":"SO WHAT WRITES: "Zionists are fundamentally dishonest people....This is the Zionist mentality. They lie through their teeth as a matter of course.....There is no honest defense of ethnic cleansing. So they lie and they forge. They also steal and kill. These are not nice people. They break the bones of little children for throwing stones."\r\n\r\nBECKY: At least he didn't say "the Jews" or people would think he\/she is a racist. BTW --got any links for that bone-breaking thing? That is a new one.","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 03:38:02","modified":"2006-06-13 03:38:02","fileurl":""},{"id":163573,"heading":""got any links for that bone-breaking thing?"","article":">That is a new one.\r\n\r\nIt's new to Becky, maybe, but not to anyone who has been paying attention:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/dir.salon.com\/story\/books\/int\/2004\/07\/19\/ben_cramer\/index.html\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\n'Break their bones,' was the order to his troops from the sainted Yitzhak Rabin, during the first Intifada -- six years before he became Israel's martyr to peace\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\n* * * * *\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.lrb.co.uk\/v28\/n06\/mear01_.html\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\nDuring the first intifada, the IDF distributed truncheons to its troops and encouraged them to break the bones of Palestinian protesters. The Swedish branch of Save the Children estimated that \u201823,600 to 29,900 children required medical treatment for their beating injuries in the first two years of the intifada.\u2019 Nearly a third of them were aged ten or under. The response to the second intifada has been even more violent . . .\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\n* * * * *\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.merip.org\/palestine-israel_primer\/intifada-87-pal-isr-primer.html\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\nUnder the leadership of Minister of Defense Yitzhak Rabin, Israel tried to smash the intifada with "force, power and blows." Army commanders instructed troops to break the bones of demonstrators. \r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\n* * * * *\r\n\r\nVideo:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sphrconcordia.org\/videos\/breakingbones.wmv\r\n\r\n(Don't watch if you're squeamish.)","author":"pointer","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 04:30:20","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:52","fileurl":""},{"id":163590,"heading":""Only a fool takes Zionists at their word."","article":"Only a fool takes anti-Zionists at their word. Anti-Zionists are fundamentally dishonest people. Just look how they behave on Indymedia. The sign other people's names every day. Sometimes it's blatant and obvious. Other times it's subtle and complex. But either way, a day doesn't go by without it. This is the anti-Zionist mentality. They lie through their teeth as a matter of course. They have to, because the truth is not on their side. There is no honest defense of ethnic cleansing of Jews. So they lie and they forge. They also steal and kill. These are not nice people. They break the bones of little Jewish children for defying them. Would *you* want people like that for neighbors? ","author":"anti-racist","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 10:44:58","modified":"2006-06-13 10:44:58","fileurl":""},{"id":163617,"heading":"There they go again","article":"See:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/06\/163282_comment.php#163391","author":"sound familiar?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 13:10:23","modified":"2006-06-13 13:10:23","fileurl":""},{"id":163640,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Jerusalem","author":"Is there more to the story?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 14:32:14","modified":"2006-06-13 14:32:14","fileurl":""},{"id":163648,"heading":"Where's the link?","article":"No link, no credibility.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 14:47:58","modified":"2006-06-13 14:47:58","fileurl":""},{"id":163650,"heading":"Hilarious coming from you","article":"You've made lots of frivolous claims with no URL backup, save for the occupation argument that you miserably failed to establish through the UNRWA link. \r\n\r\nMind you, so far your credibility is negative. \r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 14:56:34","modified":"2006-06-13 14:56:34","fileurl":""},{"id":163653,"heading":"Where's the link.","article":"Shut your piehole and give us the link, or else be laughed at Zionist troll.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:01:02","modified":"2006-06-13 15:01:02","fileurl":""},{"id":163656,"heading":""An Israel Defense Forces intelligence officer"","article":"Intelligence officers of *all* countries are notorious liars. ","author":"not a credible source","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:05:19","modified":"2006-06-13 15:05:19","fileurl":""},{"id":163657,"heading":"To: SJ","article":"Completely off topic, but I've heard there was another suicide bombing in Israel targetting tourists. Any details yet?","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:09:52","modified":"2006-06-13 15:09:52","fileurl":""},{"id":163658,"heading":"Ah here's the link.","article":"http:\/\/www.israelnewsagency.com\/hamasterrorgazaisrael48770611.html\r\n\r\nIsrael New Agency Dot Com.\r\n\r\nImagine that.\r\n\r\nThe Al Jazeera of Israel.\r\n\r\nMay as well have cited the National Enquirer.\r\n\r\nGuffaw.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:11:41","modified":"2006-06-13 15:11:41","fileurl":""},{"id":163661,"heading":""another suicide bombing in Israel targetting tourists."","article":"The tourists are as guilty as the Zionist entity itself. They bring it money, which is then spent to oppress the other people of Palestine. There is blood on the hands of every tourist. A campaign that targeted tourists would be very effective, because it would dry up this lucrative revenue stream. ","author":"it's about time","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:15:14","modified":"2006-06-14 19:15:07","fileurl":""},{"id":163662,"heading":"Have you heard?","article":"It was in al-Jazeera-rah-rah-rah where the fact that Yasser Arafat had embezzled more than $6 billion from aid funds destined to help the Palestinians was exposed. So I'd be careful to make that parallel even if I were anti-Zionist. \r\nOh, on second thought, I'm sane while you're quite far from sanity.\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:19:14","modified":"2006-06-13 15:19:14","fileurl":""},{"id":163664,"heading":"from the horses's mouth?","article":"I recently attended a talk by Alison Weir, a local anti-Israeli speaker . She showed a photo from her trip to the West Bank of Palestinian children, and mentioned there were armed gunmen nearby, but that they prudently did not want to photographed. I asked if that indicated that the gunmen were using the children as human shields.\r\n\r\nA friend of mine recently completed his service in the IDF. What he told me was that a mob of children and adults would pass around a single rifle from a rooftop or protected area- they would take turns shooting at Israelis. The Israelis couldn't ignore the assault- but the gun would change hands so rapidly, there was no one single assailent to target. If the Israelis fired on teh group, it would disperse, the gun vanishing with the mob. And anyone left bleeding on the ground would be an "unarmed civilian", perhaps even a "child"","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:21:17","modified":"2006-06-13 15:21:17","fileurl":""},{"id":163665,"heading":"Scapegoated Jew","article":"I haven't seen anything in the newsflashes to indicate such a bombing has occurred.\r\n\r\n","author":"To Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:22:43","modified":"2006-06-13 15:22:43","fileurl":""},{"id":163666,"heading":"That's right. Change the subject.","article":"No mention of the fact that these Zionist cite blatant Israeli propaganda to manufacture their bald faced lies that dead women and children picnicking on the beach were actually terrorist bomb makers.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:23:12","modified":"2006-06-13 15:23:12","fileurl":""},{"id":163670,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"No,its the other way. If the Palestinians are claiming that it was an Israeli shell that hit the beach,prove it. The Palestinians have been caught lying SO many times! Check out this link. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.seconddraft.org\/movies.php","author":"No,its the other way","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:35:00","modified":"2006-06-13 15:35:00","fileurl":""},{"id":163671,"heading":"Ha'aretz","article":"Say he's right. Say it wasn't our fault. Say we dismiss as irrelevant the fact that five IDF shells landed nearby at the same time, and that the trajectory of the sixth is unaccounted-for.","author":"quote of the day","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:38:16","modified":"2006-06-13 15:38:16","fileurl":""},{"id":163674,"heading":"think i figured it out","article":"i bet someone assumed the recent train accident was a terrorist act...\r\nthats how rumors get started. \r\nAlways good to investigate on your own before jumping to conclusions.\r\nGood advice for all of us.\r\n ","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:42:19","modified":"2006-06-13 15:42:19","fileurl":""},{"id":163675,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"\r\nPalestinians: Hamas cleared site of Gaza explosion\r\nPalestinians: Hamas cleared site of Gaza explosion\r\nJPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 11, 2006\r\nwww.jpost.com\/servlet\/Satellite?cid=1149572656052&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull\r\n\r\nA Palestinian security source said Sunday that Hamas operatives had cleared\r\nthe debris from the explosion which killed seven Palestinian civilians on\r\nFriday in order to frustrate the IDF's attempts to investigate the incident.\r\n\r\nDefense Minister Amir Peretz set up an investigative committee, headed by\r\nMaj.-General Meir Calify of the Ground Forces Command, and ordered that it\r\npresent its findings by Tuesday evening at latest.\r\n\r\nPeretz also ordered a suspension of all artillery fire until the completion\r\nof the investigation, Israel Radio reported.","author":"Strange behavior","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:42:26","modified":"2006-06-13 15:42:26","fileurl":""},{"id":163679,"heading":"All you Jews ever seem to have is innuendo.","article":"So the Hammas came out to the beach and scraped up the bodies and rubble. I suppose they were just supposed to let the body parts and eviscerated carcuses remain scattered about the beach for a week or two until the world undeniably concedes that Israel murdered these people.\r\n\r\nYou Zionists are mentally disturbed.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:49:47","modified":"2006-06-13 15:49:47","fileurl":""},{"id":163680,"heading":""A Palestinian security source said "","article":"That's third hand hearsay, from a biased source.","author":"not credible","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:50:57","modified":"2006-06-13 15:50:57","fileurl":""},{"id":163682,"heading":"It's old, really.","article":"The zionist side of these stories is just so old and stale. Every time something like this happens, they resort to blaming Palestinians for killing their own people. They seem to think we're all so stupid that we'll believe that the Palestinians are just so incompetent that they routinely turn their guns and missiles on their own people. That's why the zionists have no credibility. They think we're all stupid.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 15:54:08","modified":"2006-06-13 15:54:08","fileurl":""},{"id":163686,"heading":"You get it wrong intentionally","article":"We're thinking you're unadulturatedly evil and a revolting character that ignores the proof. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:00:05","modified":"2006-06-13 16:00:05","fileurl":""},{"id":163688,"heading":""All you Jews"","article":"Seems like the evidence for your racism is mounting, what with concluding your post with "Zionists". \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:02:38","modified":"2006-06-13 16:02:38","fileurl":""},{"id":163689,"heading":"I thought "Jew" wasn't a race?","article":"I guess it's not a race until it is a race. Can you classify the Jewish "race" for me so I can know to which group of people I am being racist against? I knew a Jewish boy in high school and he looked pretty white to me. I have darker skin than most of the Jews I've met during my lifetime, so I guess I must be racists against white people in general.\r\n\r\nGet it straight Jews. Either you're a race or else you are not. Quit confusing people. Huddle up and get your stories straight! No wonder you Jews are losing the PR war. You're not as bright as you think you are.\r\n\r\nFor the record, in this forum Jew and Zionist are synonymous. Let's quit splitting hairs. No need to quibble over terms. On LA indymedia: Jew = Zionist","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:09:54","modified":"2006-06-13 16:09:54","fileurl":""},{"id":163696,"heading":""you jews"","article":"Sorry, Lunchbox. You are sounding like one of "those" anti-semites, now.\r\nUnfortunately, the Palestinains have show a willing to sacrifice their own in their efforts to convince the world of their victimhood.\r\nWhen you read Indymedia- do you see this?\r\nSoemthing bad happens to Israel- they blame the Israels- black ops, they call it. Something bad happens to the Palestinians- they also blame the Israelis. ","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:28:46","modified":"2006-06-13 16:30:59","fileurl":""},{"id":163699,"heading":"busted","article":""All you Jews ever seem to have is innuendo."\r\n\r\nWow. And only a week ago, you were trying to position yourself as a dispassionate observer, and you turn out to be the kinda guy who can say "All you Jews ever seem to have is..." with a straight face.\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:41:03","modified":"2006-06-13 16:41:03","fileurl":""},{"id":163700,"heading":""No wonder you Jews are losing the PR war. "","article":""No wonder you Jews are losing the PR war. "\r\n\r\nIt just gets better, don't it.\r\n\r\n@%<\r\n","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:42:40","modified":"2006-06-13 16:42:40","fileurl":""},{"id":163701,"heading":"No Tia, I haven't seen it.","article":""Unfortunately, the Palestinains have show a willing to sacrifice their own in their efforts to convince the world of their victimhood. When you read Indymedia- do you see this?"\r\n\r\nNo. Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't seen anyone that claims to be Palestinian posting comments around here. All I have seen are Zionists using ham fisted propaganda, lies, obfuscations, and infomercials in an effort to discredit the Palestinians and to garner empathy for themselves.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:44:18","modified":"2006-06-13 16:44:18","fileurl":""},{"id":163709,"heading":"Why are Jews so ashamed?","article":"Why is it rude to use the word "Jew"? Someone please explain that. I am an American Indian, and I don't think it is rude to use the word "Indian". I've never met an African American who thought the word "black" was rude. Chinese people are chinese. Arabs are arabs. Why aren't Jews Jews?\r\n\r\nIt's as if the Jews think the word is above uttering allowed, like the name of G_d or something. They have to convince us that they're so oppressed that it's rude to call them exactly what they claim to be. \r\n\r\nIt just doesn't make any sense to me. But then again I'm not Jewish. Maybe they'll explain it.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 16:57:10","modified":"2006-06-13 16:57:10","fileurl":""},{"id":163714,"heading":"Schtarker Yid","article":"Wasn't this about Israel? When did it become about all Jews? Isn't that revealing?","author":"Wasn't this about Israel?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 17:05:53","modified":"2006-06-13 17:05:53","fileurl":""},{"id":163715,"heading":"Jewish and proud","article":"I'm not in the slightest bit ashamed to be a Jew. But -- like the member of any ethnicity -- I'm going defend my people when it's slandered. \r\n\r\nNobody is attacking you for using the word "Jew" in and of itself. You're being attacked be cause you're stereotyping the Jews with comments like "All you Jews ever seem to have is innuendo." \r\n\r\nCan you see the difference? It's the difference between saying "He's an Indian" versus "All Indians are liars."\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 17:07:06","modified":"2006-06-13 17:07:06","fileurl":""},{"id":163716,"heading":"No playing dumb","article":"Why is it rude to use the word "Jew"? Someone please explain that. I am an American Indian, and I don't think it is rude to use the word "Indian".\r\n\r\nIf someone came up to you in a bar and said "Got change for a five, Indian?" what would your reaction be? Woould you go up to an African American and say, "Hey, black...I'm looking for directions to....?"\r\n\r\nIts ok to speak of Jews- it's not ok to say "you Jews, hey, Jew....". \r\n\r\nYou know this. You are just playing dumb.\r\n\r\n","author":"tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 17:07:24","modified":"2006-06-13 17:07:24","fileurl":""},{"id":163722,"heading":"Okay Tia, I concede that point.","article":"Point taken. I appoligize for being rude.\r\n\r\nBut in fairness, I was using the word interchangably with Zionist, because I haven't seen anyone here in this forum claiming to be a Zionist who did not also claim to be a Jew. So I didn't think it would offend anyone. \r\n\r\nPlus, with the heap of scorn the Zionists in this forum are so quick to dump onto the rest of us, I thought you'd all have thicker skins.\r\n\r\nBut Gerhig, the innuendo comment stands. The pro-Zionist lot around here are masters at it, and that's all I've seen from them when it comes to debunking pro-Palestinian propaganda.\r\n\r\nThat's right, I said palestinian "propaganda" and it's no better than yours. I'm impartial, as I have stated many times. If I see something that I believe the "pali-nazis" have gotten wrong, believe me, I will call them on it as well.\r\n\r\nI just haven't seen this around here. Yet.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 17:20:24","modified":"2006-06-13 17:20:24","fileurl":""},{"id":163734,"heading":"it's really simple","article":""But Gerhig, the innuendo comment stands. The pro-Zionist lot around here"\r\n\r\nIf you mean to attack Zionists, say "Zionists." If you mean to attack Jews, say "Jews."\r\n\r\nCouldn't be simpler.\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 17:43:49","modified":"2006-06-13 17:43:49","fileurl":""},{"id":163742,"heading":"Delusional as ever, and fickle as hell","article":""all I've seen from them [the pro-Zionist lot] when it comes to debunking pro-Palestinian propaganda. "\r\n\r\nWe've refuted a whole lot of it. You've just refused to notice. You've went within 12 hours from claiming you've become partial in favor of anti-Zionism to being impartial. You must believe everyone are idiots here. Make your bloody mind up. The onus is on you to prove you're really impartial. \r\n\r\n\r\n" If I see something that I believe the "pali-nazis" have gotten wrong, believe me, I will call them on it as well."\r\n\r\nHow can that come to pass when you refuse to let the evidence to that effect confuse you? You've played a game whereby you distanced yourself from honestly dealing with most of the evidence you've been shown.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 18:00:26","modified":"2006-06-13 18:00:26","fileurl":""},{"id":163750,"heading":"You're not helping your side much Scapegoat.","article":"Scapegoat, do you really think I care what your opinions of me are? I'm not here trying to pass off any two bit propaganda as the honest to God truth. That's your ilk trying to do that. I'm not here with any agenda, again that's your lot.\r\n\r\nAs I've stated, I'm an impartial observer. I call 'em like I see 'em. So far you haven't scored any points with me. But I haven't given up on you yet.\r\n\r\nHere's a hint: Try the truth for a change. I'm a sucker for the truth.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 18:13:31","modified":"2006-06-13 18:13:31","fileurl":""},{"id":163759,"heading":"You must love being a windbag","article":"However, you spent your credit for coming across as impartial long ago. You'll have to work hard to gain it. I also notice that a non-Zionist (or so I think) has problems with your "impartiality" too. You dismiss Striker as well? Seems like you dismiss any user that leans on you because he or she sees through your BS. \r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 18:25:00","modified":"2006-06-13 18:25:00","fileurl":""},{"id":163771,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"DEBKAfile Exclusive: Hamas suspected of planting a daisy-chain bomb trap on Gaza beach to trap Israeli naval commandos\r\n\r\nJune 11, 2006, 10:43 PM (GMT+02:00)\r\n\r\nIsraeli leaders have ordered army commanders to put their counter-missile offensive on hold pending the findings of the military probe into the deaths of seven Palestinians, including children, on Gaza\u2019s beach Friday, June 9. Cooperation between US, Israel, Palestinian Authority and Egyptian intelligence has yielded an initial impression that the blast that caused seven Paletinian deaths on a Gaza beach Friday, june 9, was caused by one of a series of bombs Hamas planted last week on the northern Gazan beach. They were put there as daisy chain traps in case Israeli commandos landed by sea to take Qassam missile launchers in northern Gaza by surprise. The theory gaining ground is that the Palestinian picnickers had the bad luck to detonate one of those bombs.\r\n\r\nThe day after the mishap, Saturday, dozens of people were sighted combing the scene of the blast and removing the bombs, according to information passed to Israel by Palestinian intelligence, which is engaged in a blood feud with Hamas\r\n\r\nTo explain this Palestinian helpfulness, DEBKAfile\u2019s sources reveal how the close Abu Mazen associate Muhammed Dahlan was humiliated when he made the gesture of presenting his condolences for the killing of the new Hamas militia commander Jemal Semadhana last week at the official mourners\u2019 tent. Instead of his courtesies being accepted, he was pitched out of the tent by Hamas and Semdhana\u2019s Popular Resistance Committees\u2019 musclemen. He was thus treated to the ultimate insult for a Muslim. Islamic canons enjoin even enemies to be treated with respect in a mourning period. Dahlan was so enraged that he ordered PA intelligence to assist Israeli in its probe to find out if a Hamas bomb rather than an Israeli artillery shell was the true culprit behind the death of the Palestinian family. As yet it is not yet clear how much information Dahlan will allow the Palestinian service to release on the episode. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/debka.com\/","author":"No crater from a 130 mm shell?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 19:35:25","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:53","fileurl":""},{"id":163810,"heading":""If you mean to attack Jews, say 'Jews.'"","article":"If you mean to attack Jews, or any other ethnic group, don't do it on Indymedia. ","author":"anti-Zionist","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 22:12:18","modified":"2006-06-13 22:12:18","fileurl":""},{"id":163818,"heading":"been there, done that","article":""If you mean to attack Jews, or any other ethnic group, don't do it on Indymedia."\r\n\r\nBut he's already done that, nessie. But because he's an anti-Zionist, you must pretend you didn't notice.\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 23:15:31","modified":"2006-06-13 23:15:31","fileurl":""},{"id":163819,"heading":""But he's already done that, nessie."","article":"Now you lie outright, gerhig. I didn't attack all Jews and you know it. I explained my rational for my use of the word Jew, and I even went as far as to apologize to those I may have offended.\r\n\r\nHow dare you lecture me about how I am stereotyping and offending Jews, and then turn around and slander me like that.\r\n\r\nYou're a lowlife, your Jewishness withstanding.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 23:20:58","modified":"2006-06-13 23:20:58","fileurl":""},{"id":163822,"heading":"You're lying, Ryan","article":"You did attack Jews in general, not only me. Your backpedaling was noticed and that's dandy, but you needn't recoil in horror at seeing that your vicious attack was mentioned to another poster and proceed to deny you ever did it. \r\n\r\nBut you never apologized to me for attacking my Jewishness personally, including joining your pal's repugnant riff intoning I'm not a Jew or a real Jew. You're a weak person, otherwise you would've apologized to me personally and wouldn't have made a mysogynist remark about BJ. \r\n\r\nNow you're adding insult to the injury from before pretending gehrig just said you're stereotyping and offending Jews *now*. That's a blatant lie. \r\n\r\nYou're not scoring good points for your anti-Zionist cause.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-13 23:49:39","modified":"2006-06-13 23:49:39","fileurl":""},{"id":163844,"heading":"You can sure dish it out....","article":"LUNCHBOX WRITES: "Plus, with the heap of scorn the Zionists in this forum are so quick to dump onto the rest of us, I thought you'd all have thicker skins."\r\n\r\nBECKY: So was that your excuse when you called me Miss Blow Job?\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 03:25:26","modified":"2006-06-14 03:25:26","fileurl":""},{"id":163847,"heading":"Chances IDF shell killed family "slim"","article":"Jun. 13, 2006 0:30 | Updated Jun. 13, 2006 9:19\r\nReport: Chances slim that IDF shell killed Gazans on beach\r\nBy JPOST.COM STAFF\r\n\r\nThe IDF probe investigating the deaths of seven Palestinian civilians, caused by an explosion on a beach in Gaza on Friday evening, concluded that chances were slim that the accident was caused by IDF shelling.\r\n\r\nAccording to the findings, expected to be formally released on Tuesday, shrapnel taken from two wounded Palestinians who were evacuated to Israeli hospitals showed that the explosives were not made in Israel, IDF officials said.\r\n\r\nMoreover, the investigation noted the absence of a large enough crater at the site of the explosion, as would be expected if an IDF shell had landed there.\r\n\r\nThe third observation casting doubt on the possibility that IDF shelling was the cause of the Palestinian deaths was that the IDF had accounted for five of the six shells that it fired in the area before the explosion and the shell that was unaccounted for was fired more than 10 minutes before the blast that killed the Palestinians.\r\n\r\nOn Saturday evening Gaza Division Commander Brig.-Gen. Aviv Kochavi insisted that the sites that were shelled by the IDF were the places from where Kassam rockets were launched. He noted those places were frequently targeted by the IDF, and were known to be dangerous places.\r\n\r\nThe leading theory currently entertained, suggested that an explosive charge, buried by Palestinians on the Gaza beach to prevent Israeli infiltration, was behind the explosion.\r\n\r\nThroughout the whole investigation, army officials complained about the lack of Palestinian cooperation. Unconfirmed reports further suggested attempts by Palestinians to remove shrapnel from the bodies of the wounded, treated in Israeli hospitals, thus impeding the investigation.\r\n\r\nThe Palestinians originally claimed that the explosion was caused by Naval shelling, but that possibility, as well as the notion of an IAF assault was dismissed early in the investigation.\r\n\r\nShortly after the accident, the IDF, including the Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz, expressed regret at the deaths of the seven civilians, but claimed it was too early to conclude that the IDF was responsible.\r\n\r\nA probe headed by Deputy Head of the IDF Ground Forces Command Maj.-Gen. Meir Kalifi was commissioned to investigate the incident.\r\n\r\nAP contributed to this report","author":"repost from Jerusalem Post","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 03:45:29","modified":"2006-06-14 03:45:29","fileurl":""},{"id":163915,"heading":"to Lee Doyle a.k.a. nessie","article":"How do we know you've had a journalism career? How do we know you worked in a grocery store? How do we know you rode a motorcycle? How do we know you lived in Connecticut? How do we know you lived in NY? How do we know you live in SF? How do we know you lived in PA before supposedly moving to NY? How do we know you were injured in one or two road accidents? How do we know you were glasses and had metal pieces implanted in you? How do we know you bought a tree to be planted in Israel? How do we know you read Leon Uris' Exodus? How do we know you're a gentile? Hell... how do we know you're a human and not a bot?\r\n\r\nHow...? Because you say or said you are or have done these things? That proves nothing. This is the internet, so for all we know for certain, you aren't even human and those things never happened.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 11:35:33","modified":"2006-06-14 11:35:33","fileurl":""},{"id":163922,"heading":"Fox investigates theft at chicken house","article":">The IDF probe . . . concluded that chances were slim that the accident was caused by IDF shelling.\r\n\r\nRight, mom, and my hand isn't really in the cookie jar. You're hallucinating.\r\n\r\n","author":"not credible","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 12:28:20","modified":"2006-06-14 12:28:20","fileurl":""},{"id":163923,"heading":"Who said "Break their bones?"","article":"FROM: MIDEAST WEB\r\n\r\n"From 1984, Rabin served as Defense Minister in the unity governments under Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Shamir. Rabin was responsible for the withdrawal from most of Lebanon, and was responsible for Israeli policy during the intifada. He is famously quoted as having said of the Palestinians "We will break their bones," but his wife, Leah Rabin, insisted in her bood "Rabin - Our life, His Legacy" that he never said it. Other versions claim that Rabin made the statement in order to encourage soldiers to refrain from shooting at stone-throwing Palestinians."\r\n\r\nfrom: http:\/\/www.mideastweb.org\/bio-rabin.htm\r\n\r\nBiography -- Yitzhak Rabin\r\n\r\nBECKY: Well, its not entirely clear if he said it or not. Of course that was in the '80's , about 20 years ago, and has never been the policy of the IDF. \r\n\r\nI watched the video too. Its very grainy and does appear to show a brutal attack on a person who has already been taken into custody. I would call it brutality and excessive force. However, other than the super-imposed "Star of David" its impossible to tell who the perpetrators are and who the victim is. Do you have any more information on this incident? When did it occur? Who was the victim? Was a complaint filed? What happened to the complaint?\r\n\r\nIt is the stated and enforced policy of the IDF to minimize injuries or death to civilian populations. In 1999, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against the use of torture. (By contrast, the US just ruled against the use of torture earlier this year!!) If these soldiers (if indeed they ARE IDF soldiers!) committed these acts caught on videotape, they ought to be prosecuted and punished.\r\n\r\nHowever I am not convinced it ever happened, or was not staged, or was of another group committing the violence and then blamed on the IDF.\r\n\r\nWe need more information.\r\n \r\n\r\n","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 12:35:34","modified":"2006-06-14 12:35:34","fileurl":""},{"id":163932,"heading":"What if the Truth shows the Palestinians are Lying???","article":"LUNCHBOX WRITES: "I'm only interested in the truth."\r\n\r\nBECKY: But LUNCHBOX believes on first glance any report which blames Israel for excessive force or brutality, while rejecting any other reports as "unreliable" because they were written by "Zionists."\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX come to see that the PA is already broadcasting on an endless loop the video of the shattered family on the beach edited with a video of an Israeli ship firing weapons at the shore from several hours BEFORE the incident? Will Lunchbox ever realize that this is PA propaganda at its worst?\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX ever consider that an IDF rocket hitting the beach would have left a pit from its impact, yet no such pit appears in the video?\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX also assume that the aerial photos that will be published later on showing NO IDF fire at the time of the explosion, are doctored?\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX discount the shrapnel removed from three of the victims treated at Israeli hospitals which is inconsistant with an IDF shell because the Israeli doctors are "Zionists?"\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX ignore reports of the Palestinians quickly removing evidence from the crime scene?\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX discount the failure of the victims to cooperate with the IDF, Egyptian, British, and PA investigators as inconsequential?\r\n\r\nWill LUNCHBOX ignore that the time of the incident given in PA media conflicts with the actual records of when the explosion occurred?\r\n\r\nOnly interested in the truth? That's a LOT of evidence you have to discount or ignore, and a LOT of Arab propaganda you have to take at face value in order to keep thinking the worst of the IDF and Israel.\r\n\r\nON ANOTHER MATTER: Were my feelings hurt when you called me "Miss Blow Job?" Hmmmmmm. In my debate class, if you had done that, you would have been expelled.\r\nIt was crude, low, rude, crass, cheap, and hostile to all women, not just me.\r\nI did not like it in the least. However, I think the stain of the remark remains with you--showing you to be the misogynist Jew-hater your short stint at LA IMC has shown you to be. This is just another example of your inabilty to debate on a level-playing field.","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-14 13:12:25","modified":"2006-06-14 13:12:25","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/palestinian_man_holding_photo_of_june_12_2006.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/palestinian_man_holding_photo_of_june_12_2006.jpg"}},{"id":163940,"heading":""his wife . . .insisted . . . he never said it."","article":"To believe her would be like taking Eva Braun's word about what Hitler said.","author":"so what?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 13:33:04","modified":"2006-06-14 13:33:04","fileurl":""},{"id":163943,"heading":"search for Truth","article":"At least this Indymedia (a credit to the editors, I assume) is publicizing the investigation. Other indymedias are letting the lies stand.","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 13:33:05","modified":"2006-06-14 13:33:05","fileurl":""},{"id":163962,"heading":""the investigation"","article":"It's not an investigation. It's an attempted coverup, one of a long line.","author":"typical Zionist bullsh*t","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 13:49:48","modified":"2006-06-14 19:20:39","fileurl":""},{"id":163973,"heading":""Zionists have a track record of brutality and lies "","article":"nessie is not the kind of person that any sane person tries to convince. At best, he's a foil. Fortunately, most of the world is *not* convinced. \r\n\r\nAnti-Zionists have a track record of brutality and lies that stretches back many centuries. Whatever credibility they earned in the early 20th century, they squandered immediately upon squashing a third of the Jewish people in the Holocaust. \r\n\r\nNo one who has followed their lies and impersonations on Indymedia believes these people for even a second. ","author":"no surprise here","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 14:16:41","modified":"2006-06-14 14:16:41","fileurl":""},{"id":163982,"heading":"Not a Dhimmi no more","article":"Shrapnel Palestinian doctors missed doesn't match artillery metal\r\nShrapnel Palestinian doctors missed doesn't match artillery metal\r\n\r\nDr. Aaron Lerner 12 June 2006\r\n\r\nWalla http:\/\/news.walla.co.il\/?w=\/\/922629 reports that Israel Television\r\nChannel Two military correspondent Ronnie Daniel broadcast tonight that\r\nIsrael succeeded in finding shrapnel in the body of a wounded Palestinian\r\nwho had been brought to Israel after being wounded in the Friday Gaza Beach\r\nincident. Palestinian doctors attempted to remove all shrapnel before\r\ntransferring wounded to Israel but missed some.\r\n\r\nAccording to Daniel, Israel found that the composition of the metal shrapnel\r\ndoes not match the metal composition of Israeli artillery shells. Final\r\nanalysis of the metal has not been completed.\r\n\r\nIn addition, the crater on the beach does not have the characteristics of\r\ncraters formed by an artillery shell and the timing of the incident does not\r\ncoincide with the firing of Israeli artillery\r\n\r\n","author":"Just more Pallywood","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 14:28:34","modified":"2006-06-14 14:40:09","fileurl":""},{"id":163997,"heading":"Thats right, the women are smarter","article":"Ryan: You should also learn that in the eyes of nature, and of natural law, women ~ARE~ inferior to men. I know this reality makes you hate men even more, but it was only bad luck on your behalf that you were born inferior. \r\n\r\n\r\nTia: Wow. Ryan. This is indeed telling.\r\nI'd take you on, anyday. Face to face. Hand to Hand. Not because I think I'm stronger. Because I know I'm smarter.\r\n\r\n"Let us put men and women together\r\nSee which one is smarter\r\nSome say men, but I say no\r\nWomen run the men like a puppet show\r\n\r\nIt ain't me\r\nIt's the people that say\r\nMen are leading the women astray\r\nBut I say, it's the women today\r\nSmarter than the man in every way"\r\n\r\n\r\nBecky- we need to get ourselves guns and learn to use them, if this is what we are up against out there.","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:05:54","modified":"2006-06-14 15:05:54","fileurl":""},{"id":163998,"heading":"Not a Dhimmi no more","article":"PMW PA TV falsifies video of Gaza deaths\r\nPalestinian Media Watch Bulletin - June 12, 2006\r\n\r\nContact details hereView this bulletin online here\r\nPA TV falsifies video of Gaza deaths\r\nBy Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook\r\nContact Palestinian Media Watch:\r\np:+972 2 625 4140e: pmw@pmw.org.il\r\nf: +972 2 624 2803w: www.pmw.org.il\r\n\r\nPalestinian Authority TV has been repeatedly broadcasting a falsified video\r\nclip of the events surrounding the deaths of seven family members on the\r\nGaza beach on Friday. In an attempt to blame Israel's navy for the deaths,\r\nPA TV took unrelated video of an Israeli missile boat firing at Gaza earlier\r\nin the day and edited them into the scenes, creating the impression Israeli\r\nresponsibility.\r\n\r\nThe following is the time frame of the PA TV editing and falsification:\r\n\r\n00 - :32 Seconds: PATV clip introduces the scene by showing an Israeli\r\nmissile boat firing on the Gaza coast. Audio of ambulance siren is added to\r\nvisual to create false impression that boat was shooting at same time as\r\nambulances were present.\r\n\r\n0:32 - 1:05: Scene switches directly to the victims, creating a false\r\nconnection between the events.\r\n\r\n1:05 - 1:09: PA TV returns to the naval vessel showing sailor with\r\nbinoculars looking at shore, again creating the false impression he is\r\nobserving the evacuation.\r\n\r\n1:09 - 2:00: The evacuation scene continues ending with the word "Why" on\r\nthe screen only in English, indicating a foreign target audience, possibly\r\nmedia.\r\n\r\nThe video of the Israeli navy was unrelated to the deaths, having been\r\nfilmed earlier in the day and had already released to the media and to the\r\ninternet by the Israeli army at 4:00 PM, an hour prior to the deaths.\r\n\r\nClick here to see the falsified PA TV broadcast of the evacuation\r\nwww.pmw.org.il\/asx\/PMW_Shooting2006.asx\r\n\r\nComment: It should be noted that not only is the video falsified, but the\r\nbeach scene clearly backs the Israeli contention that the deaths were not\r\ncaused by an Israeli shell. Any Israeli shell would have left a giant crater\r\nand spread sand over the entire area, as well as on the victims. There is no\r\ncrater and the beach scene is not disturbed in a way that indicates an\r\nIsraeli shell could have landed nearby.\r\nPlease feel free to forward this bulletin, crediting Palestinian Media Watch","author":"PMW PA TV falsifies video of Gaza deaths","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:09:10","modified":"2006-06-14 15:09:10","fileurl":""},{"id":164009,"heading":""Any Israeli shell would have left a giant crater "","article":"Not true. An airblast from a shell equipped with a proximity fuse would not "have left a giant crater "","author":"another Zionist lie","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:28:08","modified":"2006-06-14 15:28:08","fileurl":""},{"id":164013,"heading":"Not true","article":">An airblast from a shell equipped with a proximity fuse would not "have left a giant crater\r\n\r\nIsrael didn't use a shell equipped with a proximity fuse would not "have left a giant crater.\r\n","author":"another anti-Zionist lie","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:37:27","modified":"2006-06-14 15:37:27","fileurl":""},{"id":164015,"heading":"I also find it amusing.","article":"That my post stating simply the fact that men are stronger than women, thus making women inferior, was hidden.\r\n\r\nBut Tia's comment that she would take me on hand to hand, which blatantly advocates the use of violence against me for making such a comment is allowed to stand.\r\n\r\nHow biased is that? This website must be run by a feminist!","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:38:48","modified":"2006-06-14 15:38:48","fileurl":""},{"id":164022,"heading":"Ha ha ha ha ha!","article":"Classic! My comments are being hidden like the Anne Frank!","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 15:50:22","modified":"2006-06-14 15:50:22","fileurl":""},{"id":164025,"heading":"it's all there","article":"out-to-lunch: "I didn't attack all Jews and you know it. "\r\n\r\nYou did ("All you Jews ever seem to have is innuendo"), were caught at it, and then backpedalled. \r\n\r\nYou then went on to misogyny.\r\n\r\nThanks for asking.\r\n\r\n@%<\r\n\r\n","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:20:15","modified":"2006-06-14 16:20:15","fileurl":""},{"id":164028,"heading":"Whatever gerhig.","article":"I don't have to explain myself to you Jews.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:23:36","modified":"2006-06-14 16:23:36","fileurl":""},{"id":164034,"heading":"The Native American heritage is lovely","article":"and most Native Americans are good people. But you happen to be racist Native American trash. Actually, lowlife filth. Which goosestepping outfit is financing your anti-Jewish and mysogynist trolling here? Neo-Nazi, White Power, or Vov de-Aztlan?\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:31:51","modified":"2006-06-14 16:31:51","fileurl":""},{"id":164036,"heading":""Israel didn't use a shell equipped with a proximity fuse would not"","article":"Once again they demonstrate what fundamentally dishonest people they are:\r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sfimc.net\/news\/2002\/12\/1555696_comment.php#1692248\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\nSometimes they take something that an anti-Zionist has written, subtly alter it\u2019s meaning by changing a few words, and post it under the name of the original author.\r\n\r\n(snip)\r\n\r\n* * * * * \r\n\r\nZionists love to sign other people's names. That's the kind of people they are, fundamentally dishonest. False flag ops are their specialty. We cannot help but wonder how many atrocities they have signed Osama bin Laden's name to, or Hamas' or the PLO's.\r\n\r\nFor more about "black propaganda," see:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/sf.indymedia.org\/news\/2002\/12\/1555696_comment.php#1711536\r\n","author":"there they go again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:35:27","modified":"2013-11-11 00:40:58","fileurl":""},{"id":164039,"heading":"Whatever, Goatscaper.","article":""Which goosestepping outfit is financing your anti-Jewish and mysogynist trolling here?"\r\n\r\nI don't owe any explanations to likes of you Zionist filth.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:41:47","modified":"2006-06-14 16:41:47","fileurl":""},{"id":164040,"heading":""Sometimes they take something that an anti-Zionist has written"","article":"Once again he demonstrates what fundamentally dishonest a person he is: \r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.sfimc.net\/news\/2002\/12\/1555696_comment.php#1962248 \r\n\r\n(snip) \r\n\r\nSometimes he takes something that a Zionist has written, subtly alters its meaning by changing a few words, and posts it under the name of the original author. \r\n\r\n(snip) \r\n\r\n* * * * * \r\n\r\nAnti-Zionists love to sign other people's names. That's the kind of people they are, fundamentally dishonest. False flag ops are their specialty. We cannot help but wonder how many atrocities they have signed Ehud Barak 's name to, or Irgun's or the Haganah's. \r\n\r\nFor more about "black propaganda," see: \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/sf.indymedia.org\/news\/2002\/12\/1555696_comment.php#1711539","author":"there he goes again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:42:40","modified":"2006-06-14 16:42:40","fileurl":""},{"id":164041,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Why is Lunchbox taken at his word that he is "Native-American"? When I asked, he didn't answer as to tribe, language, tribal activities. I suspect that he's just another prejudiced cracker with a family legend of a mythical Native-American ancestor. ","author":"What Native-American?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:45:00","modified":"2006-06-14 16:45:00","fileurl":""},{"id":164042,"heading":"Does anyone care?","article":"Does anyone care what the likes of Zionist filth think\/feel\/believe. No.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:47:40","modified":"2006-06-14 16:47:40","fileurl":""},{"id":164043,"heading":"He claimed to be Cherokee","article":"But I agree courtesy mandated that he grace the question about language and tribal activities with a fitting answer. \r\n\r\nMaybe he knows no Native American language, has never been in meaningful personal touch with tribal activities as a member and is envious of Jews. That would go some way toward explaining his behavior on this forum.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:56:02","modified":"2006-06-14 16:56:02","fileurl":""},{"id":164044,"heading":""by there he goes again Tuesday, Jun. 13, 2006 at 12:42 PM"","article":"People who do stuff like this can't be trusted to be telling the truth about anything.","author":"see what I mean?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:57:29","modified":"2006-06-14 16:57:29","fileurl":""},{"id":164046,"heading":""cracker"","article":"Why is this racist crap on Indymedia?","author":"just wondering","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:59:27","modified":"2006-06-14 16:59:27","fileurl":""},{"id":164047,"heading":"Ha ha ha ha","article":""But I agree courtesy mandated that he grace the question about language and tribal activities with a fitting answer."\r\n\r\nZionist scum are not allotted any of the common courtesies civil people typically afford each other.","author":"Lunchbox","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 16:59:59","modified":"2006-06-14 19:23:36","fileurl":""},{"id":164048,"heading":""People who do stuff"","article":"People who say stuff like this can't be trusted to be telling the truth about anything.\r\n","author":"see what I mean?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:04:41","modified":"2006-06-14 17:04:41","fileurl":""},{"id":164049,"heading":"But you contradict yourself in practice, uebermensch","article":"You did allot Tia the courtesy of revealing your name and regaled a few more details about your uncivil self.\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:07:20","modified":"2006-06-14 17:07:20","fileurl":""},{"id":164051,"heading":"To Ryan","article":""But Tia's comment that she would take me on hand to hand, which blatantly advocates the use of violence against me for making such a comment is allowed to stand."\r\n\r\nYou misunderstood. I'm a vegetarian, pacifist, escort the spiders outside type of girl. i don't advocate violence. But I don't advocate walking slowly, passively to my death either. I think smarts (strategy?) beat strength anyday. (And that, best beloved, is how Israel beat the combined Arab armies of 6 nations in 6 days in 1967)","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:12:06","modified":"2006-06-14 17:12:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164052,"heading":"My mistake.","article":""You did allot Tia the courtesy of revealing your name and regaled a few more details about your uncivil self."\r\n\r\nYes, I made the mistake of treating you like human beings and attempting to engage you civilly. I was grossly in error. That mistake I will not make again.\r\n\r\nI now see why your ilk has been banned from Indybay and SF Indymedia. You don't deserve any forum to disseminate your agenda of hate.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:14:06","modified":"2006-06-14 19:24:10","fileurl":""},{"id":164054,"heading":"getting all squishy again","article":"The deterioration of discussion here is particularly depressing . If we can't maintain civil dialog thousands of miles away from the conflict, what hope is there for peace in the region, ever?","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:18:57","modified":"2006-06-14 17:18:57","fileurl":""},{"id":164055,"heading":"Ha ha ha ha ha","article":""And that, best beloved, is how Israel beat the combined Arab armies of 6 nations in 6 days in 1967"\r\n\r\nJust a battle in the war, far from over. \r\nIsrael is losing. \r\nTake it from an impartial observer.\r\nLet's face it, hard times are in store for the USA. \r\nThe $6 Billion coattails will have to be cut. \r\nHow long will Israel last then? \r\nI wonder if even 6 days.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:20:37","modified":"2006-06-14 17:20:37","fileurl":""},{"id":164056,"heading":"Good question.","article":""what hope is there for peace in the region, ever?"\r\n\r\nLooks like none whatsoever as best as I can tell.\r\n\r\nBut then again, liars and thieves deserve neither peace nor security.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:23:13","modified":"2006-06-14 17:23:13","fileurl":""},{"id":164057,"heading":"Another mistake you make","article":"Basically, Indybay and SF-IMC are governed by self-anointed uebermensch lowlife Stalinist dictators who sanctify their rabid mouth frothed anti-Zionist insanity which they enforce with an iron fist. They're threatened by the slightest hint from news on the ground that refutes their lopsided racist worldview. \r\n\r\nWhat you'd really likke to do after you muzzle up is to stamp us out of the world. You (plural) may succeed in the long run in the former given oil influence, but perish in any attempt to act on the latter. We'll take down many of you without using nukes.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:24:12","modified":"2006-06-14 17:24:12","fileurl":""},{"id":164059,"heading":"My my aren't the Zion loons funny.","article":""We'll take down many of you without using nukes."\r\n\r\nThe nazis had delusions of grandeur too. We saw how that turned out.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:29:02","modified":"2006-06-14 17:29:02","fileurl":""},{"id":164060,"heading":"A miscalculation, potentially","article":""...The $6 Billion coattails will have to be cut. \r\nHow long will Israel last then? \r\nI wonder if even 6 days."\r\n\r\nI'm not in a rush to discout all Israeli Jews as wussies who'll make every effort to hang onto US largese at any cost. There still exist people like Menahem Begin who proclaimed that given a similar situation, he'll "commute from one place of residence to the next and encourage my people to settle for only bread and margarine for food". \r\n\r\nThe point here is, acute crises get the best out of Zionist Jews.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:30:02","modified":"2006-06-14 17:30:02","fileurl":""},{"id":164061,"heading":"Us Jews are a resilient bunch","article":"I've got a little blue box on my window sill. Just like my parents did. Just like my grandparents did. Just like Jews all over the world do. In it go our pennies, nickels and dimes. And our pennies nickels and dimes are sent to Israel. \r\nIf the US government stops supporting Israel, the Jewish people of the world will take up the slack, as much as we can. With our pennies, and penses, with our nickels and lire.\r\nAnd if Israel falls, we'll wait. We waited 2,000 years. We can wait another 2,000. We are a patient people. \r\n\r\nI just attended a talk with Dr. Ruth- she had to stand on a box to reach the microphone- she is 4 foot 7- the size of a 10 year old. She was a fighter in the Haganah. Its not about size, Ryan. Its about heart. \r\n\r\nYou don't get that , do you?","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:32:02","modified":"2006-06-14 17:32:02","fileurl":""},{"id":164062,"heading":"Respect.","article":""he'll "commute from one place of residence to the next and encourage my people to settle for only bread and margarine for food".\r\n\r\nThey'd deserve and get a lot more respect than they do now if they had the gonads and the spines to make good on that.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:34:08","modified":"2006-06-14 17:34:08","fileurl":""},{"id":164063,"heading":"What are you saying here?","article":""The nazis had delusions of grandeur too. We saw how that turned out."\r\n\r\nYou're saying many Jews aren't capable of using guns to effectively fend off massive attacks in personal, paramilitary and military settings? If you believe that capability to be a delusion of grandeur, you're mistaken. But we already know which line of thought you came from-- all Jews are only untermenschen who can be stamped out easily with no resistance.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:36:13","modified":"2006-06-14 17:36:13","fileurl":""},{"id":164064,"heading":"Let's face it.","article":""Its not about size, Ryan. Its about heart."\r\n\r\nLet's face it: It's not about size or heart. \r\n\r\nIt's about gall. \r\n\r\nIt's about selfishness. \r\n\r\nIt's about the unmitigated nerve to lie, cheat, steal, and kill as necessary to get your land.","author":"Ryan","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:39:00","modified":"2006-06-14 17:39:00","fileurl":""},{"id":164066,"heading":"You'll never respect them (including me)","article":"Anyway, heavens forfend you should wish the Palestinian aristocracy, middle class and the oil producing Arab countries that have grown fat on the backs of the commons they had stolen from to settle for two bare food staples.\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:42:23","modified":"2006-06-14 17:42:23","fileurl":""},{"id":164067,"heading":"Zionazis","article":""You're saying many Jews aren't capable of using guns to effectively fend off massive attacks in personal, paramilitary and military settings?"\r\n\r\nThe nazis were paranoid too.","author":"Ryan","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:43:07","modified":"2006-06-14 19:25:30","fileurl":""},{"id":164068,"heading":"Stuermbahnfuerer, that's not an answer","article":""The nazis were paranoid too."\r\n\r\nSurely an Indianazi like you who knows no fear isn't afraid to reply to the point, are you? You needn't be civil to answer that.\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:47:38","modified":"2006-06-14 17:47:38","fileurl":""},{"id":164071,"heading":"The point is obvious.","article":""Surely an Indianazi like you who knows no fear isn't afraid to reply to the point, are you?"\r\n\r\nThe point is the Zionist and the Nazis are blood brothers. They're practically the same in all aspects. \r\n\r\nIrony is a bitch. A stinging, wretched bitch.","author":"Ryan","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:54:15","modified":"2006-06-14 19:26:09","fileurl":""},{"id":164072,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Is Ryan quoting Nessie now? It seems to disturb these type of Jew haters that we didn't remain subservient, cowering Shet'l Jews. \r\n\r\nDoes the idea of armed Jews defending themselves shock you? It shocked the Nazis!","author":"Is Ryan quoting Nessie now?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 17:57:52","modified":"2006-06-14 17:57:52","fileurl":""},{"id":164076,"heading":"I got his loonytune logic","article":"The Indianazi Ryan holds the Zionists and the Nazis to be blood brothers and practically identical in all aspects because I stated that many Jews would successfully fend off massive armed attacks by racist haters like himself. That's the typical fallback of a rabid antisemite when such an inconvenient fact is brought to their attention. \r\n\r\nThe conclusion here is that he's deeply troubled by the fact that a Jew can advise him that many Jews are capable of killing their attackers in self defense. ","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:04:06","modified":"2006-06-14 18:04:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164079,"heading":"LOL!","article":""The conclusion here is that he's deeply troubled by the fact that a Jew can advise him that many Jews are capable of killing their attackers in self defense."\r\n\r\nI really have seen everything here today: Women wanting to engage men in hand to hand combat. Zionists claiming to be secular. Jews claiming they can defend themselves.\r\n\r\nI tell you this is very entertaining indeed.","author":"LB","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:08:29","modified":"2006-06-14 18:08:29","fileurl":""},{"id":164080,"heading":"ROTFLMAO!! (A tension breaker below)","article":""They were slaves in Egypt. Then they were forced to wander aimlessly in the desert and worship false idols. Then they murdered Jesus Christ "\r\n\r\nLOL... haven't you insisted these things are fictitious Biblical tales? You can't even get your position straight! (Anyway, the Christ canard is definitely historically invalid. Sorry to burst your bubble.)\r\n\r\n\r\n"Jews are cursed people!"\r\n\r\nBecause of goosesteping uebermenschen like you that refuse to be confused by the entire picture.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:12:13","modified":"2006-06-14 18:12:13","fileurl":""},{"id":164082,"heading":"begging the question","article":">Does the idea of armed Jews defending themselves shock you? \r\n\r\n\r\nThey aren't "defending themselves." They are preying on their neighbors.","author":"bunk logic","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:17:06","modified":"2006-06-14 18:17:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164084,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Actually, it is amazing just how much archaeology has confirmed the historic truth and accuracy of Torah. From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Western Wall, to the Moabite Stela, to Jericho etc.","author":"archaeology","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:23:45","modified":"2006-06-14 18:23:45","fileurl":""},{"id":164085,"heading":"Archeology has confirmed nothing","article":"that justifies racist aggression today.","author":"now is now","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:30:43","modified":"2006-06-14 18:30:43","fileurl":""},{"id":164086,"heading":"The Indianazi buffoon takes the proverbial cake!","article":""I'd really love to know more about this, and most certainly about your denial of the account of the massacre of Jesus Christ. "\r\n\r\n(a.) One person cannot be massacred. Besides, your venerable Jesus was executed by the Romans. The various details in your NT don't mesh with what's known of Jewish legal practice at the time. For the whole explanation, see http:\/\/judaism.about.com\/od\/jewishviewofjesus\/a\/jesus_trial.htm and http:\/\/judaism.about.com\/od\/jewishviewofjesus\/a\/jesus_execute.htm\r\n\r\n(b.) For the other stuff, make up your own facts. You're very adept at doing it.\r\n\r\n\r\n"But I'm afraid I'm out of time today. "\r\n\r\nMore like out of smarts.\r\n\r\n\r\n"Although, I never implied that the books of the New Testament are fiction"\r\n\r\nNewsflash: the NT isn't within the Jewish canon and the fictional component in it probably outnumbers the fictional part of the Hebrew Bible.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:31:45","modified":"2006-06-14 18:31:45","fileurl":""},{"id":164087,"heading":""They are preying on their neighbors."","article":"nessie just accused *the Jews* of preying on their neighbors. The anti-Zionist figleaf slipped bigtime. nessie is racist to the core. Dialogue with racists is immoral. Throw nessie out.","author":"anti-racist","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:36:06","modified":"2006-06-14 18:36:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164094,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"The IDF is innocent," was the bottom line that came out of a press conference Tuesday night, during which Defense Minister Amir Peretz, Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz and other top officers presented the findings of an internal military investigation into Friday's explosion that killed seven Palestinians as they picnicked on a Gaza beach.\r\n\r\nIn a press conference at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv, Peretz told reporters that following an extensive three-day investigation the IDF had collected sufficient evidence to prove that Friday's explosion was not caused by Israel. The evidence was being presented first and foremost to the Israeli people, Peretz emphasized, saying, "We owe it to ourselves to know that we did not cause these deaths."\r\n\r\n"We have sufficient evidence which confirms our suspicion that the attempts to portray this incident as caused by Israel were wrong," Peretz said. "I know it is difficult to explain this, but the facts that have accumulated prove that Israel was not behind the incident."\r\n\r\nIn contrast to daily Palestinian rocket attacks against Israel, Peretz added, the IDF made great efforts to avoid harming innocent Palestinians. "In all IDF operations one of the issues that is taken into consideration and sometimes adds risk to ourselves is the need to not cause harm to innocent civilians," the defense minister said.\r\n\r\nHalutz said that, while the IDF expressed regret immediately following the incident, it did not mean to take upon itself responsibility for the explosion. Referring to Tuesday's missile strike on an Islamic Jihad terror cell in Gaza that killed eight innocent Palestinians, Halutz stressed that the rocket cells operated from within densely populated areas.\r\n\r\n"We will not let them get away with their attacks and the [responsibility] for the price the Palestinians are paying lies on the shoulders of the Palestinian Authority and the other groups that should be doing everything possible to prevent these events from occurring," Halutz said.\r\n\r\nPeretz also expressed regret for the harm caused to innocent civilians in Tuesday's missile strike. But, he said, "all the organizations attacking us are trying to hurt our civilians. They act from within population centers while knowing that they are endangering the population."\r\n\r\n"The bottom line," Halutz said, "is that we are very sad that innocent people were killed due to an explosion that happened on the seashore of the Gaza Strip but it has no connection to Israeli military activity that happened that same day."\r\n\r\nPresenting the technical findings was Deputy Head of the IDF Ground Forces Command Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi, who headed up the investigation into the incident on Friday. Standing in front of an array of maps and movie screens, Klifi showed aerial photographs of IDF attacks on northern Gaza that day while presenting the time line of events that led to the deadly explosion on the beach.\r\n\r\nAn analysis of the location of the incident together with its timing - between 16:57 and 17:10 - Klifi said, proved that Israel could not have been behind the explosion since neither the Air Force, the Navy nor artillery cannons were in action at the time.\r\n\r\nOne IAF strike on the Gaza Strip that day, he said, occurred 2.5 kilometers from the scene of the explosion and two other strikes took place hours earlier. Ruling out Navy fire, Klifi said that "every 76-mm. shell fired from the navy boats can be accounted for since they all hit their targets successfully." In fact, Klifi said, "the ones that fell closest to the location of the incident were fired four hours earlier."Artillery shelling, he added, could also not have been responsible for the explosion. A piece of shrapnel taken from one of the wounded being treated in an Israeli hospital and cross-checked with 155-mm. Shells used by the IDF proved that the explosion was not caused by Israeli artillery fire. "The fragment taken out of the wounded showed absolutely that it is not connected to any [type of] Israeli ammunition used that day," Halutz said.\r\n\r\nThe army, Klifi said, has also accounted for five of the six shells that were fired in the area Friday evening before the beach explosion.\r\n\r\nNone of them exploded nearby, he said, adding that the one shell that was not accounted for was fired before the five others and more than 10 minutes before the blast.\r\n\r\nPeretz and Halutz did show signs of disagreement after they were both asked separately if they would be willing to allow an international third party to inspect the shrapnel sample taken from one of the wounded. Peretz said he would consider the possibility but later, after he had already left the briefing, Halutz was asked the same question by the foreign press and said he was confident with the IDF's internal probe and that there was no reason to cast doubt in its professionalism.\r\n\r\nIn Gaza, Human Rights Watch military expert Marc Garlasco inspected the shrapnel at the scene and saw the wounded. He concluded that the blast was caused by an Israeli shell. However, he held open the slim possibility that it was planted there by Palestinian militants, though fragment patterns did not back that.\r\n\r\n"Our information certainly supports, I believe, an Israeli shell did come in and kill these people," he said, ruling out a land mine. Garlasco was the first independent expert to inspect the scene. Palestinians also rejected the possibility that their own explosives caused the fatal blast.\r\n\r\n"This is a false allegation, and the Israeli occupation state is trying to escape from shouldering its responsibility by accusing Palestinians without evidence or any proof," said Ghazi Hamad, a spokesman for the Hamas-led Palestinian government.\r\n\r\n"The eyewitnesses and the evidence that we have confirm that the massacre is the result of Israeli shelling, and the allegation about land mines planted by Palestinians is baseless," he said.\r\n\r\nAP contributed to this report.","author":"Back on topic","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 18:54:45","modified":"2006-06-14 19:00:37","fileurl":""},{"id":164096,"heading":"Damn those treacherous people","article":"There seems to be no limit to their Nazi-like willingness to go to every length and beyond to win a PR bonanza. Shouldn't this Palestinian propaganda ruse be recorded in the Guinness Book of Records?","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 19:03:22","modified":"2006-06-14 19:03:22","fileurl":""},{"id":164102,"heading":"just","article":"Anyone think sheepdog and ryan are one and the same?","author":"wondering","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 19:36:16","modified":"2006-06-14 19:36:16","fileurl":""},{"id":164119,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Where is Sheepdog anyway? We've never seen the two at the same time have we?","author":"Where is Sheepdog anyway?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 20:59:46","modified":"2006-06-14 20:59:46","fileurl":""},{"id":164124,"heading":"On the topic itself","article":"Sheepdog and Ryan can't be the same -- for a number of reasons.. \r\n\r\nBut on the topic itself, the anti-Zionists have fallen sylent and are gnashing their teeth until the next opportunity presents itself to launch another diatribe.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 21:26:19","modified":"2006-06-14 21:26:19","fileurl":""},{"id":164138,"heading":""nessie just accused *the Jews* of preying on their neighbors."","article":"I said no such thing. Really, scroll up and read for yourselves.\r\n\r\nThey're putting words into my mouth again. They do this a lot, and not just to me.","author":"wrong","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 22:13:30","modified":"2006-06-14 22:13:30","fileurl":""},{"id":164141,"heading":"True, it wasn't "the Jews"","article":"Yet nessie accused *armed Jews* of preying on their neighbors. That's almost as bad. It's still extremely racist. It paints all armed Jews with the same broad brush. Dialogue is not an appropriate reaction to racists. Throw nessie out.\r\n\r\n","author":"anti-racist","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 22:22:21","modified":"2006-06-14 22:22:21","fileurl":""},{"id":164161,"heading":"Again.","article":""Yet nessie accused *armed Jews* of preying on their neighbors. That's almost as bad. It's still extremely racist. It paints all armed Jews with the same broad brush. Dialogue is not an appropriate reaction to racists. Throw nessie out."\r\n\r\nAgain. How can it possibly be racists if Jews are not a race? I really don't get that.\r\n","author":"Ryan","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 22:51:30","modified":"2006-06-14 22:51:30","fileurl":""},{"id":164193,"heading":"Repeating something doesn't make it true.","article":"It's just noise. They're trying to smother a discussion again. They do this a lot.","author":"there they go again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 23:10:24","modified":"2006-06-14 23:10:24","fileurl":""},{"id":164196,"heading":"Denying something doesn't make it untrue.","article":"It's just noise. He's lying and trying to smother the discussion again. He does this a lot.\r\n\r\n","author":"there he goes again","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 23:23:39","modified":"2006-06-14 23:23:39","fileurl":""},{"id":164200,"heading":"noise","article":"and more noise. We must have hit another nerve.","author":"noise","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-14 23:38:36","modified":"2006-06-14 23:38:36","fileurl":""},{"id":164313,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Wheres the appology? Now that it sems estalished that it was a Hamas land mine, shouldn't there be a retraction, perhaps a condemnation of the use of land mines or will this persist as another Pallywood myth?","author":"Wheres the appology?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 13:37:47","modified":"2006-06-15 13:37:47","fileurl":""},{"id":164315,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"It is now clear that Israel was not responsible for the killing of the Palestinian family on the beach in Gaza last weekend. Shrapnel removed from the wounded Palestinians turned out not to be Israeli ordinance; there was no blast crater of the kind that would have been expected following a shell landing, while the evidence at the scene suggested instead a mine exploding from below; and all the shells fired from the Israeli gunboat had been fired significantly earlier than the disaster on the beach. This was the incident, remember, that Hamas used as an excuse for its announcement that the "truce" with Israel was now over.\r\n\r\nMeanwhile, more than 100 missiles have been fired at Israeli towns from Gaza since the weekend. The Palestinians are using their own people as human shields by firing from densely populated areas, thus making it impossible for Israel to take out these firing sites without civilian casualties. The bombardment of Israel, however, has been all but ignored by the main stream media. The same media eagerly regurgitates Palestinian lies and libels to demonize Israel. No country on earth would be expected to put up with such a bombardment of its citizens.","author":"Main stream media","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 13:39:26","modified":"2006-06-15 13:39:26","fileurl":""},{"id":164339,"heading":"Land ownership","article":"I've been following the tragic story of the "Farm" on LA IMC. It reminds me very much of what happened in Berkeley a few years back, with our "People's Park"- its still a park, thank you! \r\n \r\nThere is a sign one of the posters is carrying "The land belongs to those who work it" Maybe we can add this as yet another reason why Israel has the "right" to its ancient homeland. \r\n\r\n"The land belongs to those who work it"\r\n\r\nThe British Consul in Palestine reported in 1857 that \r\n\r\n"The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population.... "\r\n\r\nIn the 1860s, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." At the same time, H. B. Tristram noted in his journal that \r\n"The north and south [of the Sharon plain] land is going out of cultivation and whole villages are rapidly disappearing from the face of the earth."\r\n\r\nMark Twain, in his inimitable fashion, expressed scom for what he called the "romantic" and "prejudiced" accounts of Palestine after he visited the Holy Land in 1867. In one location after another, Twain registered gloom at his findings. \r\n"Stirring scenes ... occur in the valley [Jezreel] no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent-not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings."\r\n\r\nThe land only began flourishing after the return of the Jews. \r\nThe land belongs to those who work it. \r\nReason #5.","author":"Tia","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 14:39:46","modified":"2006-06-15 14:39:46","fileurl":""},{"id":164364,"heading":"Divine Right","article":"\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n","author":"Divine Right","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 16:17:19","modified":"2006-06-15 16:17:19","fileurl":""},{"id":164374,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Spammer is back","author":"Spammer is back","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 16:50:10","modified":"2006-06-15 16:50:10","fileurl":""},{"id":164385,"heading":""Now that it sems estalished that it was a Hamas land mine"","article":"See:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2006\/06\/164379_comment.php","author":"another Zionist lie","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 17:11:06","modified":"2006-06-15 17:11:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164401,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"read the other thread. Its mealy mouthed , inconclusive and appears tainted. Just more Pallywood\r\n\r\n","author":"read the other thread","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 17:29:54","modified":"2006-06-15 17:29:54","fileurl":""},{"id":164414,"heading":"We are better","article":"\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God espies or discovers a land for a people, as in Ezek. 20:6: "He brought them into a land that He had espied for them." And, that is, when either He gives them to discover it themselves, or hears of it discovered by others, and fitting them. Second, after He hath espied it, when He carrieth them along to it, so that they plainly see a providence of God leading them from one country to another, as in Ex. 19.-4; "You have seen how I have borne you as on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself" So that though they met with many difficulties, yet He carried them high above them all, like an eagle, flying over seas and rocks, and all hindrances. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes room for a people to dwell there, as in Ps. 80:9: "Thou preparedst room for them. . ." \r\n\r\nNow, God makes room for a people three ways: First, when He casts out the enemies of a people before them by lawful war with the inhabitants, which God calls them unto, as in Ps. 44:2- "Thou didst drive out the heathen before them." But this course of warring against others and driving them out without provocation depends upon special commission from God, or else it is not imitable.\r\n\r\nSecond, when He gives a foreign people favor in the eyes of any native people to come and sit down with them, either by way of purchase, as Abraham did obtain the field of Achpelah; or else when they give it in courtesy, as Pharaoh did the land of Goshen unto the sons of Jacob. \r\n\r\nThird, when He makes a country, though not altogether void of inhabitants, yet void in that place where they reside. Where there is a vacant place, there is liberty for the sons of Adam or Noah to come and inhabit, though they neither buy it nor ask their leaves. . . . So that it is free from that common grant for any to take possession of vacant countries. Indeed, no nation is to drive out another without special commission from Heaven, such as the Israelites had, unless the natives do unjustly wrong them, and will not recompense the wrongs done in a peaceable fort [way]. And then they may right themselves by lawful war and subdue the country unto them- selves. . . \r\n\r\nThis may teach us all, where we now dwell or where after we may dwell: Be sure you look at every place appointed to you from the hand of God. We may not rush into any place and never say to God, "By Your leave." But we must discern how God appoints us this place. There is poor comfort in sitting down in any place that you cannot say, "This place is appointed me of God." Canst thou say that God spied out this place for thee, and there hath settled thee above all hindrances? Didst thou find that God made room for the either by lawful descent, or purchase, or gift, or other warrantable right? Why, then, this is the place God hath appointed thee; here He hath made room for thee, He hath placed thee in Rehoboth, in a peaceable place. This we must discern or else we are but intruders upon God. And when we do withal discern that God giveth us these out- ward blessings from His love in Christ, and maketh comfortable provision as well for our soul as for our bodies by the means of grace, then do we enjoy our present possession as well by gracious promise as by the common, and just, and bountiful providence of the Lord. Or, if a man do remove, he must see that God hath espied out such a country for him. . . \r\n\r\nQuest. But how shall I know whether God hath appointed me such a place, if I be well where I am, what may warrant my removal? \r\n\r\nAnsw. There be four or five good things, for procurement of any of which I may remove. Second, there be some evil things, for avoiding of any of which we may transplant ourselves. Third, if withal we find some special providence of God concurring in either of both concerning ourselves, and applying general grounds of removal to our personal estate. \r\n\r\nFirst, we may remove for the gaining of knowledge. . . \r\n\r\nSecond, some remove and travail for merchandise and gainsake: "Daily bread may be sought from afar" (Prov. 31:14). . . \r\n\r\nThird, to plant a colony, that is, a company that agree together to remove out of their own country, and settle a city or commonwealth elsewhere. Of such a colony, we read in Acts 16:12, which God blessed and prospered exceedingly, and made it a glorious church. . . \r\n\r\nFourth, God alloweth a man to remove when he may employ his talents and gift better elsewhere, especially when where he is, he is not bound by any special engagement. . . \r\n\r\nFifth, for the liberty of the ordinances. . . This case was of seasonable use to our fathers in the days of Queen Mary, who removed to France and Germany in the beginning of her reign, upon proclamation of alteration of religion, before any persecution began. . . . There be evils to be avoided that may warrant removal: First, when some grievous sins overspread a country that threaten desolation. . . . Second, if men be overburdened with debts and miseries. . . Third, in case of persecution. . .As these general cases, where any of them do fall out, do warrant removal in general; so there be some special providences or particular cases which may give warrant unto such or such a person to transplant himself, and which apply the former general grounds to particular persons; hat threaten desolation. . . Second, if be overburdened with debts and misery . . .Third, in case of persecution . . .As these general cases, where any em do fall out, do warrant removal in ml; so there be some special provinces or particular cases which may give 'ant unto such or such a person to plant himself, and which apply the for general grounds to particular persons; first, if sovereign authority command and encourage such plantations by giving way to subjects to transplant themselves and set up a new commonwealth. This is a lawful and expedient case for such particular persons as be designed and sent; Matt. 8:9: "And for such as they who are sent have power to command." Second, when some special providence of God leads a man unto such a course.\r\n\r\nThe Divine Right to Occupy the Land\r\n\r\nby John Cotton\r\n\r\nLondon,1630\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and I will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more [11 Sam. 7:10]. . . . \r\n\r\nThe placing of a people in this or that country is from the appointment of the Lord. . . Quest. Wherein doth this work of God stand in appointing a place for a people? Answ. First, when God e","author":"We are better","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 18:20:21","modified":"2006-06-15 18:20:21","fileurl":""},{"id":164425,"heading":"Let it be written","article":"Our Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exile, our people have returned to our land. Every portion of the land over which Jewish authority is exercised was won in defensive wars in which Gd showed overt miracles. Now when Gd grants His people land in such ways, should it be returned? Is it proper to spurn a Divine gift?\r\nOur Right to the Land of Israel\r\nThere is a fundamental argument that must be dealt with. At the bottom of all the Arab rhetoric lies one basic claim: "You are intruders. This is our land. We had been living here for centuries and then you decided to take it from us."\r\n\r\nOnce it is established that the Jews have a valid right to the Land of Israel, then the violence, hatred, and disregard for life that has characterized the Arab position can be judged for what it is. Unless that right is established, the Arabs will always claim that they have a valid goal: reclaiming a land that is rightfully theirs. And once validity is granted to their goal, the debate whether all means are acceptable to attain it or not is one of philosophy.\r\n\r\nWhat is our claim to the land? -Gd's promise in the Torah. Gd told Abraham: "I have given this land to your descendants." For one-and-a- half thousand years the Land of Israel was our home, and ever since then, Jews everywhere have longed to come home to their eternal heritage - to Jerusalem, the site of the Holy Temple; to Hebron, the burial place of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and to Bethlehem, where Rachel weeps for her dispersed children and awaits their return. Even throughout the two thousand years during which our people wandered from country to country, Israel has remained the national home of every Jew. From the beginning of the exile until this day, no matter how farflung his current host country might be, every Jew has turned to face the Holy Land in his thrice-daily prayers.\r\n\r\nSo central is this principle to our faith, that Rashi, the foremost of the traditional commentators on the Torah, begins his commentary by stating:\r\n\r\nRabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun with the verse, "This month shall be for you the first of the months...," for this introduces the first commandment given to Israel.\r\n\r\nWhy then does it begin with the narrative of creation?...\r\n\r\nSo that if the nations of the world say to Israel, "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan]," Israel will reply to them: "The entire world belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it and gave it to whomever He pleased. Of His own will He gave it to them, and of His own will He took it from them and gave it to us."\r\n\r\nFrom this perspective the entire Land of Israel - not only the coastal region, Jerusalem, and the Galilee, but also Judea, Samaria, and indeed every tiny portion of the land - is part of an organic whole, an indivisible and sanctified unity. In this spirit, the Kneisiyah HaGedolah of Agudas Yisrael, an assembly of Jewry's foremost sages in the pre-Holocaust era, declared in 1937:\r\n\r\nThe Holy Land, whose boundaries were prescribed by the Holy One, blessed be He, in His holy Torah, was granted to the nation of Israel, the eternal people. Any sacrifice of the Holy Land that was granted to us by G-d is of absolutely no validity.\r\n\r\nThis explanation is, moreover, the only rationale that cannot be refuted by the Arabs or the Americans. They also accept the Bible and believe in the truth of its prophecies. The Koran does not dispute the Jews' right to the Land of Israel. And can you conceive of an American president telling his people that Gd's promise to Abraham is not relevant? Indeed, the connection between the land and our people is so well established that everywhere it is referred to as "the Land of Israel."\r\n\r\nFor this reason, it is important to emphasize that this connection is rooted in the Bible's prophecies. It would not be desirable to base our claim to the Land of Israel on the Balfour Declaration or international agreements of the present century, for these agreements could be countermanded by other ones. After all, how favorable is the United Nations to Israel today?\r\n\r\nNor is the fact that our people once lived in the land sufficient in and of itself to establish our claim to it today. If the American Indians would lodge a claim to all of America, would it be granted them?\r\n\r\nWhen the Bible's prophecies serve as the basis for our claim, then many other arguments are effective in reinforcing the position. But when that foundation is lacking, we have difficulty refuting the gentiles' claim: "You are robbers, because you took by force the lands of the... nations."\r\n\r\nAfter thousands of years of exil","author":"Let it be heard","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 18:37:31","modified":"2006-06-15 18:37:31","fileurl":""},{"id":164444,"heading":"Schtarker Yid","article":"Same spammer","author":"Same spammer","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-15 19:06:06","modified":"2006-06-15 19:06:06","fileurl":""},{"id":164473,"heading":"Reality Check on Lead Article","article":"ETERNAL PALESTINE WRITES: "TEN PALESTINIAN MARTYRS IN THE LATEST ISRAELI MASSACRE"\r\n\r\nBECKY: Let's see. How accurate is this? First, its 8 killed, not 9 as Amy Goodman reported, or 10 as Al Jazeera reported.\r\nA Martyr is when they are engaged in Holy Jihad for Allah, right?\r\nThese were Gazan families on a picnic at the beach. Jihadis???\r\n\r\nI'm not sure what the rules are on Islamic martyrs, and just WHO qualifies for those 72 virgins. But somehow I don't think that going to the beach qualifies. But then hey, I"m not a Muslim.\r\n\r\nThe "Israeli" part is so knee-jerk for "Eternal Palestine" for blame-the-Jews is deeply ingrained. But the evidence is clear:\r\n\r\n1. bomb fragments don't match\r\n2. timing of IDF artillery fire doesn't match\r\n3. there was no fire from the sea at the time either\r\n4. Hamas had cameras on the scene in seconds\r\n5. no bomb crater\r\n6. PA is already fabricating IDF blame in a video, showing Israeli fire from a ship, then the girl wailing on the beach\r\n\r\nAND TO CONSIDER A POSSIBLE MOTIVE:\r\n\r\n7. Hamas got caught 2 weeks ago when Israeli divers landed on shore and caught a qassam rocket crew. Its entirely possible that Hamas then put land mines on the beach to stop another IDF attack.\r\n\r\nMASSACRE: That part was right. It was a horrible massacre with dead and orphaned, most likely innocent Palestinians---killed by accident and blamed on Israel on purpose.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2006-06-15 20:42:19","modified":"2006-06-15 20:42:19","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/gazaprotests_june_10_2006_fox_photo.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2006\/06\/gazaprotests_june_10_2006_fox_photo.jpg"}},{"id":164649,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Spammer is back","author":"Spammer is back","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-16 15:29:27","modified":"2006-06-16 15:29:27","fileurl":""},{"id":164672,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Spammer is back","author":"Spammer is back","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-16 16:06:59","modified":"2006-06-16 16:06:59","fileurl":""},{"id":164676,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Spammer is back","author":"Spammer is back","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-16 16:11:37","modified":"2006-06-16 16:11:37","fileurl":""},{"id":164771,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Are you done spamming now kid?","author":"Are you done spamming now kid?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-16 17:34:27","modified":"2006-06-16 17:34:27","fileurl":""},{"id":165286,"heading":"German paper doubts Gaza beach reports","article":"German paper doubts Gaza beach reports\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nGerman newspaper casts doubt on Palestinian claims that IDF shell killed seven family members on Gaza beach. How come Hadil Ghalia was seen wearing dry clothes after the Gaza beach attack when she was reported to have been swimming?\r\nYnet\r\n\r\n \r\nWhile three major British newspapers published reports contradicting Israel's claims that its military was not responsible for the murder of seven members of the Ghalia family on a Gaza beach over a week ago, a German newspaper casts doubt on the authenticity of pictures taken soon after the bloody incident.\r\n\r\n \r\nContradictions\r\nGaza blast: Doubt over IDF's version \/ Ynet\r\nAccording to new findings, testimonies and hospital records, deadly blast at Gaza beach, which killed Ghalia family members, occurred at time of shelling, not after; British Guardian, Independent, Times newspapers publish findings casting doubt on Israel's claims\r\nFull Story\r\n\r\nGerman daily Sued Deutsche, said pictures taken by Zakaria Abu Irbad, 36, a cameramen with the Palestinian independent news agency Ramattan, contradict Palestinian claims that an IDF shell killed the Ghalia family and point to the possibility that the event was staged to hold Israel responsible.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nIrbad was the first journalist to arrive at the s cene after the attack and Ramattan sold footage of Hadil weeping on the beach by her dead father to all major news broadcasters.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe newspaper said in footage of the beach taken by an IDF drone at the time of the attack, five craters left by IDF artillery shells could be seen, but that 250 meters away people could also be seen.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe paper said it is strange that although shells exploded 250 meters away from a beach site where Palestinian families congregated, no one was seen running away or panicking.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nIrbad told the newspaper he was told of the attack by paramedics who guided him to the scene.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nBut no paramedics are seen until later in the footage, raising suspicions that he was first to reach the scene.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nMoreover, if Irbad was the first to get to the scene, why were most bodies covered by sheets? Who was there first to cover the bodies? The newspaper asked.\r\n\r\n \r\n'Did girl give instructions to cameraman?'\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe newspaper also doubts Irbad's claim that Hadil was not injured because she was in the water when the shell exploded. His footage show her dry and fully clothed.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nAnother question raised by the newspaper is a shot of a man carrying a rifle next to the dead body of Hadil's father. The newspaper said in earlier footage, the same man was seen lying on the beach among the injured.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe footage also shows paramedics in green clothes and a dozen of bearded men looking for evidence. The newspaper asks whether the men are Hamas affiliates and wonders why they were preoccupied with collecting evidence rather than helping the injured.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nDid Hamas men hide evidence from the scene, as claimed by eyewitnesses interviewed by Israeli broadcasters?\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe newspaper said Irbad evaded most of the questions addressed to him.\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nAsked why he didn't try to calm Hadil instead of filming her he said: "She asked me to film her. She wanted to be seen next to her father to show the world the crimes that Israel is committing."\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nThe newspaper finally asks: "Did the shocked 10-year-old girl, who had lost her father minutes earlier, give the cameraman direction instructions?"","author":"German paper doubts Gaza beach reports","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 17:45:19","modified":"2006-06-19 17:49:19","fileurl":""},{"id":165294,"heading":"For historical reasons,","article":"the German press, and the German people in general, bend over backwards to avoid being percieved as critical of Israel in any way. ","author":"no surprise","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 18:18:37","modified":"2006-06-19 18:18:37","fileurl":""},{"id":165299,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"No comment on the content? Just a little low brow ad hominem hit and run? Typical Nessie droppings!","author":"no comment on the content?","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 18:32:51","modified":"2006-06-19 18:32:51","fileurl":""},{"id":165300,"heading":"Bunk logic","article":"That's an overgeneralization and in any event can't account for this specific dissenting journalistic treatise. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 18:34:40","modified":"2006-06-19 18:34:40","fileurl":""},{"id":165317,"heading":"Their right to be wrong","article":"Demonizing Israel is beyond pathetic. True. \r\n\r\nIt is also true that usually Israel are the good guys and "Palestine" are the bad ones. But it's untrue and counterproductive to say the Israelis are always good and never bad. I myself acknowledge the blemishes of Israel. But Israel's excesses and shortcomings do not excuse demonization of Israel re the Palestinians by anyone. \r\n\r\nThere's also no excuse for lionizing a society whose numerous racist ills have been pointed out to those lefties with gusto.\r\n\r\nThat being said, where else would the leftists malign Israel if not on Indymedia and their assorted other fora? We live in democracies and they're exercizing their rights to be wrong.","author":"Scapegoated Jew","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 21:56:00","modified":"2006-06-19 21:56:00","fileurl":""},{"id":165319,"heading":"You can't be neitral on a moving train","article":">the good guys (Israel) and the bad guys (Palestine). \r\n\r\nThat's a Zionist lie. There are two sides in this conflict, the oppressors and the oppressed. You're either on the side of the oppressed, all the oppressed, all over the world, or you're evil. It's a simple as that.","author":"pick a side","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 23:05:51","modified":"2006-06-19 23:05:51","fileurl":""},{"id":165320,"heading":"We can't be neutral on a moving train","article":">the bad guys (Israel) and the good guys (Palestine). \r\n\r\nThat's an anti-Zionist lie. There are two sides in this conflict, the Palestinian oppressors and the Israeli and Palestinian oppressed. You're either on the side of the oppressed, all the oppressed, all over the world, or you're evil. It's a simple as that. You're either with us or against us.\r\n","author":"picked a side","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-19 23:28:40","modified":"2006-06-19 23:28:40","fileurl":""},{"id":165346,"heading":"But we all want Peace, don't we?","article":"PICK A SIDE WRITES: "There are two sides in this conflict, the oppressors and the oppressed..."\r\n\r\nBECKY: There are two sides in this conflict, the attackers and and the defenders.","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 03:13:00","modified":"2006-06-20 03:13:00","fileurl":""},{"id":165370,"heading":"More Pallywood","article":"Pallywood: German Expose of Palestinian media hi-jinx in Gaza beach tragedy\r\nPallywood: German Expose of Palestinian media hi-jinx in Gaza beach tragedy\r\nwww.zionism-israel.com\/log\/archives\/00000123.html\r\n\r\n19.06.2006\r\nThe German Suedduetche Zeitung ran the following article with a detailed\r\nexamination of the evidence in the Gaza Bearch shooting. It clarifies many\r\nof the problems with the story disseminated by the Palestinians and media.\r\n\r\nThe Middle East: The war of images Seven casualties in Gaza beach: Was it a\r\nshelling attack by Israel? Or an exploding Palestinian land mine? An example\r\nof how sometimes Palestinians bend the truth. by Thorsten Schmitz\r\n\r\nSource (in German, with photos:\r\nwww.sueddeutsche.de\/ausland\/artikel\/315\/78237\/5\/\r\n\r\nLast Friday ten year old Huda Ghalia rose early, although she did not have\r\nany school. She was excited. The last exams were written, and large summer\r\nholidays had begun. Huda's father Ali had promised his children to organize\r\na picnic at the beach in northern Gaza on that Friday last week .\r\n\r\nHuda is, a cousin tells us, one of the class scholars and loves math,\r\nbiology and classics. Their favorite poem is by Mahmud Darwish: Calling Card\r\nis a sad poem about a homeless Palestinian and his hate for settlers. The\r\nfamily from the 35,000 inhabitant town of Beit Lahia loaded up with plastic\r\ntables and chairs, cooked ears of corn and Pita bread on the short way to\r\nthe beach. Beit Lahija is well-known for its strawberries, in addition,\r\nhowever, from here short-range missiles are fired on Israel.\r\n\r\nFor the father, one of his two wives and five of the sons and daughters the\r\npicnic had a deadly end. Before 5 PM a shell exploded g in the midst of the\r\nfamily. Seven humans lost their lives that Friday afternoon in the sand or\r\nin the ambulance.\r\n\r\nThe bloody picnic made Huda Ghalija famous within a few hours world-wide.\r\nThis was owing to the cameraman Zakarija Abu Harbed. Only few minutes after\r\nthe explosion of shrapnel from a ball-filled shell the 36 year old cameraman\r\nfrom Gaza city with camera and full equipment was at the scene of the\r\ncatastrophe.\r\n\r\nA lucrative job\r\n\r\nHarbed works for the Arab TV Ramattan News Agency. The agency has offices\r\nin Ramallah in the West Bank and in Gaza city, the capital of the Gaza\r\nStrip.\r\n\r\nThe largest TV broadcasters in the world, CNN and ABC, news agencies such as\r\nReuters and Associated press, and also German TV firms, work almost\r\nexclusively with Palestinian camera men, if it concerns reports out of the\r\nGaza Strip.\r\n\r\nThe pictures of the hopeless world in the Gaza Strip are filmed primarily by\r\nPalestinians. As a cameraman, working for Western media is considered one of\r\nthe most lucrative jobs in the Palestinian areas. Some earn as much as 250\r\nUS dollar a day, as much as some Palestinian extended families earn in half\r\na year.\r\n\r\nCameraman Harbed had occupational luck on past Friday: He was first at the\r\nplace of the misfortune. His agency, Ramattan news Agency sold the\r\nheart-rending pictures of the hysterical and tear-flooded Huda Ghalia to\r\ntelevision stations around the entire world. In Australia as in India, in\r\nEurope as in the USA, Harbed's photographs of Huda were shown: As she tears\r\nher hair and strikes her chest, as she sinks beside her dead father into the\r\nsand, as she runs completely alone dozens of meters in the sand.\r\n\r\nIn the Arab world and in the Palestinian areas the cause of the death of the\r\nGhalia family members was already certain on Friday: Israeli shelling. This\r\nverdict was also bolstered by archive photos of Israeli soldiers firing\r\nartillery shells, which some Arab television stations cut into the film of\r\ncameraman Harbed.\r\n\r\nIn opinion of the Hamas-led autonomy authority, and in the opinion of Fatah\r\nhead and president of Palestinian Authority, Mahmud Abbas, the Ghalias were\r\nkilled by Israeli bombardment. They both used the word "massacre". In rare\r\nagreement still on Saturday, Hamas head of the government Ismail Hanija and\r\nAbbas symbolically adopted Huda and vowed they would be responsible for the\r\nremainder of their life for her living costs.\r\n\r\nA Palestinian child, who lost its father, is considered as an orphan.\r\n(Huda's physical birth mother Hamdia survived the detonation with an injury)\r\nLikewise the investigation of a team of the US human rights group, Human\r\nRights Watch, concluded provisionally that Israel was responsible for the\r\nshell explosion.\r\n\r\nThe group formulates its conclusions, however, carefully and less\r\ncertainly: After interviews with victims, eye-witnesses, policemen and\r\nphysicians and visiting the scene of the disaster, one preserves "strong\r\nassumptions" that Israeli artillery is responsible for the misfortune. The\r\nreport of the human rights groups does not mention however that their\r\ninvestigator researched the incident for evidence only after a day had\r\nelapsed - allowing enough time to remove important pieces of evidence.\r\n\r\nThe Israeli Ministry of Defense concluded, after first evaluations of radar\r\nand satellite photographs, that the projectile, which led to the death of\r\nthe seven Palestinians did not originate with the army. Chief of Staff Dan\r\nHalutz said, that while Israel regrets the death of the seven Palestinians,\r\nthis does not mean however "that we were responsible for it".\r\n\r\nAccording to investigations of the Israeli army, based only on pictures and\r\nmedical findings, not on on the scene searches, the Israeli army fired six\r\nshells in that Friday afternoon toward Gaza beach. According to data\r\nsupplied by Halutz, five of the six shells hit in the time between 16.31 and\r\n16.48 - approximately 250 meters north of that place, in which the family\r\npicnic had taken place. The artillery bombardment was due to Palestinian\r\nrocket launchers.\r\n\r\nAn unmanned airplane of the Israeli army filmed the Gaza Strip at the time\r\nof the bombardment from the air. On the films one sees on the one hand five\r\nimpact holes of the shells in the beach, in addition, 250 meters to the\r\nsouth, humans. According to data of the army the explosion at the beach\r\nsection, at which the Ghalias picnicked, must have taken place between 16.57\r\nand 17.10. Before 16.57 normal beach activity is to be seen on the film of\r\nthe army.\r\n\r\nThe fact that humans did not react to the five shell impacts at 250 meters\r\ndistance by rushing to escape is strange. The next scene on the army film\r\nshows ambulances, arriving at the beach. That is at 17.15 o'clock. The\r\nhospital, where the ambulances came, lies five minutes away from the site of\r\nthe explosion.\r\n\r\nPossible dud\r\n\r\nOver the impact site the sixth shell, which caused the death of the seven\r\nfamily members according to statements of human rights group and the\r\nPalestinian government as a dud, The Israeli army cannot give any\r\ninformation. It regards it however as "impossible" that the shell deviated a\r\nwhole 250 meters from its target.\r\n\r\nAs further proof Israel states that it treated four of the beach casualties\r\nin hospitals in Tel Aviv. From the body of one of the wounded fragments were\r\nsaved, which could not have originated from weapons in the arsenal of the\r\nIsraeli army.\r\n\r\nThe Israeli army does not exclude the possibility that the detonation was\r\ndue to a mine, which had been buried there by Palestinians, in order to\r\nprevent the Israeli navy from landing commandos in the Gaza Strip.\r\n\r\nIn view of the contradictory statements, great importance is attached to\r\nHarbed's television pictures. These however raise more questions than they\r\ncontribute to clarifying. The original photographs are in the meantime so\r\ndoubtful that CNN shows them only in abbreviated form at its Website.\r\n\r\nTo the Sueddeutche Zeitung, Harbed explains that he had been informed\r\nafterwards about the explosion and driven to the scene by the rescue medics\r\nin the ambulance. In his pictures however, Harbed films the hysteria of the\r\nten-year Huda, as if he were a witness of the detonation. Also he films the\r\narrival of the medics, as though he was at the beach beforehand.\r\n\r\nAdditionally, some of the dead and wounded are covered with cloths - who did\r\nthat?\r\n\r\nHarbed claims that Huda escaped serious injury, since she was bathing in the\r\nsea. In his photos, however, Huda is running around in dry street clothes.\r\nHarbed runs several minutes of the crying Huda and afterwards turns his\r\ncamera to the dead and injured.\r\n\r\nSuddenly a man beside Huda's dead father can be discerned, until now covered\r\nand motionless, who appears with a machine gun in his hand. In the pictures\r\nof the cameraman one can recognize both medics in green OI clothes as well\r\nas dozens of men, most with typical Hamas full beards, apparently securing\r\npieces of evidence.\r\n\r\nHowever one must ask, why the medics do not worry about the injured people\r\nand policemen do not secure the place. Have the Hamas men, as Israeli media\r\nquote Palestinian eye witnesses, removed pieces of evidence?\r\n\r\nEvasive answers of the cameraman\r\n\r\nIt is also strange why in Harbed's pictures we cannot discern a crater. The\r\nmore cameraman Harbed is asked by Sueddeutche Zeitung in the telephone\r\ninterview, the more he evades the issue. Was he at the scene of the incident\r\nbefore the outpatient clinic [personnel] arrived? Who are the civilians, who\r\nare clean the beach? Who is the armed man in the ground, which suddenly\r\nrises? If it was an Israeli army shell that killed the Ghalia family\r\nmembers, why don't the Palestinians show its fragments?\r\n\r\nAnd: Why didn't it occur to Harbed to calm the hysterical Huda down instead\r\nof pursuing her for several minutes with his camera? Harbed says: "She asked\r\nme to film her. She wanted to be shown to the world with her father and show\r\nthe world what crimes Israel commits." The ten-year Huda, who lost seven\r\nfamily members, distraught in mourning, is supposed have given Harbed cinema\r\ndirection instructions?\r\n\r\nPallywood\r\n\r\nThe fact that Palestinians in the Middle East war fabricate based on\r\npictures or bring incorrect pictures into circulation is not new. In the\r\nmedia parlance following the US TV Magazine 60 Minutes one speaks of\r\n"Pallywood" - following Hollywoods film industry. In the [60 minutes] report\r\nfor example one can see Palestinians of the latest Intifada, who carry a\r\ndead person on a stretcher. Someone trips, the alleged dead man falls on the\r\nsoil - and jumps swiftly again back on the stretcher, lies down and acts\r\nlike a dead man.\r\n\r\nA recent example of an attempt of Palestinians to lead the world public by\r\nthe nose is the Israeli Air Force attack on last Tuesday on three members of\r\nthe "Islamic Jihad", in which eight civilians, among them two children, were\r\nkilled. After the attack on the car, in which the members of the terror\r\ngroup sat, one sees three men briefly, as they remove a short-range missile\r\nin a hurry from the car.\r\n\r\nFor two days the Ramattan TV news Agency Internet site blinked with an\r\n"urgent flash: Message for our customers . As if the company is anxious to\r\nfurther spread the Huda pictures, whose authenticity is doubted by many\r\npeople, pointing out hereby that that it possesses exclusive rights to the\r\npictures. Nobody has the right to disseminate the pictures further without\r\nconsent of Ramattan news Agency.","author":"More Pallywood","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 14:31:39","modified":"2006-06-20 14:31:39","fileurl":""},{"id":165383,"heading":""But we all want Peace, don't we?"","article":"The victims of Zionist aggression want justice. No justice, no piece.","author":"wrong","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 16:29:05","modified":"2006-06-20 16:29:05","fileurl":""},{"id":165387,"heading":""The victims of Zionist aggression want justice. No justice, no piece."","article":"When he has nothing of substance to say, he just spouts out a bumper-sticker like platitude full of buzzwords. It's a trick. Don't fall for it.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"noise","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 16:42:52","modified":"2006-06-20 16:42:52","fileurl":""},{"id":165391,"heading":""bumper-sticker"","article":"http:\/\/onegoodmove.org\/fallacy\/style.htm\r\n\r\n\tStyle Over Substance\r\n\r\nDefinition:\r\n\r\n The manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is taken to affect the likelihood that the conclusion is true. \r\n\r\nExamples:\r\n\r\n 1. Nixon lost the presidential debate because of the sweat on his forehead.\r\n 2. Trudeau knows how to move a crowd. He must be right.\r\n 3. Why don't you take the advice of that nicely dressed young man? \r\n\r\nProof:\r\n\r\n While it is true that the manner in which an argument is presented will affect whether people believe that its conclusion is true, nonetheless, the truth of the conclusion does not depend on the manner in which the argument is presented. In order to show that this fallacy is being committed, show that the style in this case does not affect the truth or falsity of the conclusion. ","author":"bunk logic","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 16:50:39","modified":"2006-06-20 16:50:39","fileurl":""},{"id":165393,"heading":"SchtarkerYid","article":"Nessie can't confront the current Pallywood set up and so, like a typical anti-zionist, changes the subject.","author":"Nessie can't confront Pallywood","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 16:53:35","modified":"2006-06-20 16:53:35","fileurl":""},{"id":165404,"heading":"News","article":"Human Rights Watch admits unable to contradict IDF\r\nBy YAAKOV KATZ\r\n \t\r\n\r\nWhile sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, the Human Rights Watch conceded Monday night for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF's exonerating findings.\r\n\r\nOn Monday, Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi - head of the IDF inquiry commission that cleared the IDF of responsibility for the blast - met with Marc Garlasco, a military expert from the HRW who had last week claimed that the blast was caused by an IDF artillery shell. Following the three-hour meeting, described by both sides as cordial and pleasant, Garlasco praised the IDF's professional investigation into the blast, which he said was most likely caused by unexploded Israeli ordnance left laying on the beach, a possibility also raised by Klifi and his team.\r\n\r\n"We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. While Klifi's team did a "competent job" to rule out the possibility that the blast was caused by artillery fire, there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration.\r\n\r\nThe main argument between Klifi and HRW surrounded the timeline of the blast, which the IDF said took between 16:57 and 15:10, at least 10 minutes after artillery fire in the area had stopped. HRW however disputes this claim and basing itself on Palestinian hospital documentation, claims that the explosion actually took place right around the time of the IDF artillery fire.\r\n\r\nMeanwhile Monday, The Post learned that the IDF was currently inspecting a second piece of shrapnel doctors had retrieved from one of the Palestinians wounded in the blast and currently being treated at Soroka Hospital in Beersheba. A first piece of shrapnel, examined by the IDF as well as by an independent academic institute in Beersheba was found to not have come from a 155 mm shell, the type used in IDF artillery attacks on Kassam launch sites in the Gaza Strip. The second piece of shrapnel, sources said, was currently being examined in an IDF lab.\r\n\r\nGarlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians.\r\n\r\n"We do not believe the Israelis were targeting civilians." Garlasco said. "We just want to know if it was an Israeli shell that killed the Palestinians."\r\n\r\nLucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made "a good assessment" when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach.\r\n\r\n'We differ when it comes to other pieces of information from other sources that don't relate to the military strike such as the timing and the type of injuries," Mair explained. "While they [the IDF] made a very good presentation, we still think there are enough unanswered questions that have not been examined by Klifi's team\u2026and that is why we believe there should be an independent investigation."","author":"Human Rights Watch admits unable to contradic","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 19:07:40","modified":"2013-11-11 00:41:09","fileurl":""},{"id":165411,"heading":"Human Rights Watch is not a credible source","article":"It's a George Soros sock puppet.\r\n","author":"don't fall for it","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-20 22:14:43","modified":"2006-06-20 22:14:43","fileurl":""},{"id":165426,"heading":"simple thought-cop rule","article":"Only nessie is a credible source. Just ask nessie. Because only nessie is a credible source. Just ask nessie. Because...\r\n\r\n@%<","author":"gehrig","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-21 00:45:59","modified":"2006-06-21 00:45:59","fileurl":""},{"id":165431,"heading":"You mean the Jews DIDN"T do it????","article":"Sounds like HRW has backed down on their initial claim.\r\nNow I wonder why they believe it was an unexploded Israeli ordinance. ","author":"Becky Johnson","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-21 01:41:09","modified":"2006-06-21 01:41:09","fileurl":""},{"id":166515,"heading":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush) on Likud Extremist","article":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush): "Sorry to Oil the Arming of Likud Extremist but Oil comes First. Fill her Up ??????"","author":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush)","parent_id":163213,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-30 10:11:40","modified":"2006-06-30 10:11:40","fileurl":""}]}
\r\n\t
\r\n\t<\/b>An Anti-Zionist blog - browsing the media
\r\n\t
\r\n\t* * * * *
\r\n\tSunday, June 11, 2006<\/b>
\r\n\t
\r\n\t<\/b>Here's an article in Ha'aretz<\/a> setting out various ways that Israel disengages from the reality of war criminality:\r\n\t\r\n\t\tIt was easy for us, much, much too easy, to have gone through this entire weekend, and still not see the blood on our hands.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tOne reason is that we don't watch Al Jazeera. Another is that we don't really see ourselves.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tWe immediately found no end of ways to disengage from the tragedy of a family erased for the crime of picnicking on a beach.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThe World Cup was one method. Another was reflex.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThe ineffable anguish in the image of a girl running on a beach where her family lay in pieces on the sand, was shown again and again and again on Al Jazeera, but it passed swiftly from Israeli television screens and from the Israeli consciousness, replaced, in many cases, with indignation over the world's propensity to pre-judge and condemn us.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tIt wasn't us, we told ourselves. And if it was us, we were more than justified.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\t"I categorically reject all the attempts to impugn the morality of the Israel Defense Forces," said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, opening the cabinet session on Sunday.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\t"The Israel Defense Forces is the most moral army in the world. It has never conducted a policy of harming civilians, and is not doing so today."
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tWere we, in fact, at fault?
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThe army's front commander for Gaza, Major General Yoav Galant, said Sunday that "the picture is unclear. The artillery fire has been well-analyzed, and the question marks are multiplying as to whether the artillery fire was the cause of the incident."
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tSay he's right. Say it wasn't our fault. Say we dismiss as irrelevant the fact that five IDF shells landed nearby at the same time, and that the trajectory of the sixth is unaccounted-for.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tPretend, for argument's sake, that the army's statements on the incident were not meant to confabulate, that is, to unconsciously replace fact with fantasy in someone's memory.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tMake believe that it was only coincidence that when Army Radio said the probe was to determine who was responsible for the killing of the Ghalia family, it suggested that the choices were "an Israeli artillery shell, or a Palestinian Qassam rocket that landed in the area by mistake."
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tAnd while you're at it ...
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tSay the blood that is on our hands is not that of Ali Ghalia, the father of the family, his wife Ra'isa, four of his daughters, one aged 2, and his eight-month-old son
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tSay the blood is not that of Mohammed Dura, the 12-year-old boy killed early in the Intifada in a crossfire between Israelis and Palestinians.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tFor every Mohammed Dura, there have been hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians killed by the IDF in error, in conjunction with the killing of terrorists, or because overwhelming force and remote technology was applied in order to minimize the risk to Israeli troops.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThere was no news crew to film them, so the world cares nothing for them. And neither do we. Their tragedies are no less unbearable, surely no less unbearable than the hundreds of our own the world cares nothing for.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tWe can live with it, as we live with the idea of sending thousands and thousands of artillery shells into one of the most crowded districts on the planet, in order to try to hit three-man mobile crews firing a rocket not much bigger than a broom - the equivalent of going after a fly with a pile-driver.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tWe live with it because we Can't Just Do Nothing, as if thousands of shells, many of them directed at open spaces calculated precisely to hit nothing, are the only possible alternative.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tWe can live with it, fundamentally, because we don't know what else to do, and because the only thing left for us to believe, is that it's wrong to negotiate.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\t"The entire protest was ugly from the standpoint of morality," said senior Likud lawmaker Yuval Steinitz, referring to a small demonstration of leftists near the house of IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz Saturday morning - a rally that included Olmert's daughter Dana.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThe demonstration was over the killing of the Ghalia family in Gaza, and in favor of resuming peace talks, even with a government with whom we share only mutual abhorrence.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\t"Instead of demonstrating against the side that fires Qassams with malice aforethought against civilians, Israeli civilians, the civilians of Sderot," Steinitz added, "they protest against the side that, as a last resort, must defend its citizens, is obligated to defend its citizens, and responds with fire."
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tIt was meanwhile possible to gather from news reports Sunday that, apart from Qassam barrages against the Negev, little had, in fact, occurred.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\tThe day was likely to be unseasonably pleasant and cool, meteorologist Robert Orlinsky told radio listerners.
\r\n\t\t
\r\n\t\t"All in all," he said "Tov lanu." "Things are good for us."<\/blockquote>\r\n\t