{"article":{"id":137448,"heading":"Griffin Seals Case for WTC Demolition, Calls on NY Times to End Coverup","author":"Kevin Barrett","created":"2005-10-20 14:22:54","modified":"2013-11-11 00:35:45","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:35:45","article":"

Griffin Seals Case for WTC Demolition, Calls on NY Times to End Coverup

Theologian David Griffin says controlled demolition is now a fact, not a theory

Griffin delivers explosive truth of neocons' New Pearl Harbor

In two speeches to overflow crowds in New York last weekend, notable theologian David Ray Griffin argued that recently revealed evidence seals the case that the Twin Towers and WTC-7 were destroyed by controlled demolition with explosives. Despite the many enduring mysteries of the 9\/11 attacks, Dr. Griffin concluded, \"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government.\"

On Oct. 15th and 16th, New Yorkers filled two venues to hear the prominent theologian and author of two books on 9\/11 give a presentation entitled “The Destruction of the Trade Towers: A Christian Theologian Speaks Out.” Dr. Griffin has continued to blaze a trail of courage, leading where most media and elected officials have feared to tread. His presentation went straight to the core of one of the most powerful indictments of the official story, the collapse of the towers and WTC 7.

Dr. Griffin included excerpts from the firemen’s tapes which were recently released as a result of a prolonged court battle led by victim’s families represented by attorney Norman Siegel and reported in the NY Times. He also included statements by many witnesses. These sources gave ample testimony giving evidence of explosions going off in the buildings. A 12 minute film was shown for the audiences, who saw for themselves the undeniable evidence for controlled demolition.

Dr. Griffin listed ten characteristics of the collapses which all indicate that the buildings did not fall due to being struck by planes or the ensuing fires. He explained the buildings fell suddenly without any indication of collapse. They fell straight into their own footprint at free-fall speed, meeting virtually no resistance as they fell--a physical impossibility unless all vertical support was being progressively removed by explosives severing the core columns. The towers were built to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 and 160 mile per hour winds, and nothing about the plane crashes or ensuing fires gave any indication of causing the kind of damage that would be necessary to trigger even a partial or progressive collapse, much less the shredding of the buildings into dust and fragments that could drop at free-fall speed. The massive core columns--the most significant structural feature of the buildings, whose very existence is denied in the official 9\/11 Commission Report--were severed into uniform 30 foot sections, just right for the 30-foot trucks used to remove them quickly before a real investigation could transpire. There was a volcanic-like dust cloud from the concrete being pulverized, and no physical mechanism other than explosives can begin to explain how so much of the buildings' concrete was rendered into extremely fine dust. The debris was ejected horizontally several hundred feet in huge fan shaped plumes stretching in all directions, with telltale \"squibs\" following the path of the explosives downward. These are all facts that have been avoided by mainstream and even most of the alternative media. Again, these are characteristics of the kind of controlled demolitions that news people and firefighters were describing on the morning of 9\/11. Those multiple first-person descriptions of controlled demolition were hidden away for almost four years by the City of New York until a lawsuit finally forced the city to release them. Dr. Griffin's study of these accounts has led him beyond his earlier questioning of the official story of the collapses, to his above-quoted conclusion: The destruction of the three WTC buildings with explosives by US government terrorists is no longer a hypothesis, but a fact that has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

It’s important to note that Dr. Griffin is one of many prominent intellectuals--including the likes of Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Peter Dale Scott, Richard Falk, Paul Craig Roberts, Morgan Reynolds and Peter Phillips--who have seen through the major discrepancies of the official explanation of 9\/11 and have risen to challenge it. These brave individuals represent the tip of an ever-growing iceberg of discreet 9\/11 skeptics. Indeed, 9\/11 skepticism appears to be almost universal among intellectuals who have examined the evidence, since there has not yet been a single serious attempt to refute the case developed by Dr. Griffin and such like-minded thinkers as Nafeez Ahmed and Mike Ruppert. As for the general public, polls have shown that a strong majority of Canadians (63%, Toronto Star, May '04) and half of New Yorkers (Zogby, August 2004) agree that top US leaders conspired to murder nearly 3,000 Americans on 9\/11\/01.

How, then, can the mainstream US media continue to ignore the story of the century? Perhaps the best answer was given by Dr. Griffin himself in the conclusion of his talk, and is worth quoting at length:

The evidence for this conclusion (that 9\/11 was an inside job) has thus far been largely ignored by the mainstream press, perhaps under the guise of obeying President Bush’s advice not to tolerate “outrageous conspiracy theories.” We have seen, however, that it is the Bush administration’s conspiracy theory that is the outrageous one, because it is violently contradicted by numerous facts, including some basic laws of physics.  

    There is, of course, another reason why the mainstream press has not pointed out these contradictions. As a recent letter to the Los Angeles Times said:

“The number of contradictions in the official version of . . . 9\/11 is so overwhelming that . . . it simply cannot be believed. Yet . . . the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of ‘X-Files’ proportions and insidiousness.”

 

The implications are indeed disturbing. Many people who know or at least suspect the truth about 9\/11 probably believe that revealing it would be so disturbing to the American psyche, the American form of government, and global stability that it is better to pretend to believe the official version. I would suggest, however, that any merit this argument may have had earlier has been overcome by more recent events and realizations. Far more devastating to the American psyche, the American form of government, and the world as a whole will be the continued rule of those who brought us 9\/11, because the values reflected in that horrendous event have been reflected in the Bush administration’s lies to justify the attack on Iraq, its disregard for environmental science and the Bill of Rights, its criminal negligence both before and after Katrina, and now its apparent plan not only to weaponize space but also to authorize the use of nuclear weapons in a preemptive strike.

    In light of this situation and the facts discussed in this lecture---as well as dozens of more problems in the official account of 9\/11 discussed elsewhere---I call on the New York Times to take the lead in finally exposing to the American people and the world the truth about 9\/11. Taking the lead on such a story will, of course, involve enormous risks. But if there is any news organization with the power, the prestige, and the credibility to break this story, it is the Times. It performed yeoman service in getting the 9\/11 oral histories released. But now the welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9\/11 exposed. I am calling on the Times to rise to the occasion.



Dr. Griffin’s speech given at the University of Wisconsin earlier this year, entitled “9\/11 and the American Empire,” was broadcast twice on C-SPAN. In late September Dr. Griffin was asked to give expert testimony at hearings sponsored by Cynthia McKinney and the Congressional Black Caucus investigating the 9\/11 Commission Report. He is currently Professor Emeritus at Claremont College in California.

This weekend's events were sponsored by NY911truth.org, WBAI and the Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9\/11 Truth: http:\/\/mujca.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n","contact":"kevin@mujca.com","link":"http:\/\/mujca.com","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"In two speeches to overflow crowds in New York last weekend, notable theologian David Ray Griffin argued that recently revealed evidence seals the case that the Twin Towers and WTC-7 were destroyed by controlled demolition with explosives. Despite the many enduring mysteries of the 9\/11 attacks, Dr. Griffin concluded, "It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."","numcomment":76,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2005\/10\/137448.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":137451,"heading":"If there is probable cause","article":"Only probable cause of a crime that has been committed is enough to seek the grand jury to investigate. That is the way to get results instead of committees and commentary. Public awareness is good, but where are the results ?","author":"Ben","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-20 15:24:16","modified":"2005-10-20 15:24:16","fileurl":""},{"id":137454,"heading":"If cornered,","article":"Bush will claim that his new Supreme Court nominee, Harrie, blew up the towers by mistake, in the same way that Nixon's secretary erased the famous Watergate tape. Harrie was supposed to hit a blue button that meant "send Marine helicopters to the rescue." Instead, she hit a red button that signaled "blow up the towers."","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-20 15:46:39","modified":"2005-10-20 15:46:39","fileurl":""},{"id":137456,"heading":"Kook!","article":"You have to wonder if these insane conspiracy kook rants and notions are created by the fascist regime to try to paint Americansd who oppose the fascist regime as all kooks.\r\n\r\nWhat utter ignorant stupidity.\r\n\r\nHere's a clue: The buildings were _not_ "demolished." In case you fucking missed it, jet airliners were flown into the buildings. No "internal explosions," no fucking flying saucers, no god damnhed fucking conspiracy.\r\n\r\nJesus!\r\n","author":"Fredric L. Rice","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-20 16:01:21","modified":"2005-10-20 16:01:21","fileurl":""},{"id":137458,"heading":"Meyer London","article":"And how do you know that? Many people who have studied the issue have come to the opposite conclusion.","author":"No internal explosions","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-20 17:07:42","modified":"2005-10-20 17:07:42","fileurl":""},{"id":137462,"heading":"Shut Up Elmer, and Get a Clue","article":"Gee, the link to break wind, I mean dark wind, goes to the Elmer Fudd website....talk about a kook. \r\n\r\nTo just spit out and reiterate the so-called "official" line on the WTC collapse (that two airliners can bring down two towers) is to be as uncritically accepting of mumbo jumbo as the fundamentalists who want to jam creation down our throats. There are several witnesses amongst the gag-ordered NYFD who can testify to \r\nmulitple explosions in the WTC after impact. The problem is that the govt. and the news media already have bamboozled the U.S. population (including mr. fudd above) into believeing their redacted (9\/11 commission report) version of events so that everything else gets painted with the coat of "conspiracy," GEE,\r\nJUST LIKE THAT B.S. CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT WMDS AND AL-QAEDA CONNECTIONS THAT GOT US INTO AN ILLEGAL WAR.\r\n\r\nSo whose the real kook mr. fudd, and do you still allow neo-conservative psychos and their complicit mass media ilk to define the limitations of your critical inquiries.\r\n\r\nGet a copy of LOSE CHANGE and get a clue.","author":"the bottom line","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-20 17:41:38","modified":"2005-10-20 17:41:38","fileurl":""},{"id":137463,"heading":""how do you know that?"","article":"radio conversations from Firefighters, Police, EMT's, other witnesses, - recorded.\r\n\r\nalso air traffic control recordings\r\n\r\nall the recordings were finally released -\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/audio57.archive.org\/1\/audio\/911_fdny_dispatches.zip\r\n\r\n(warning - this is a very large zip of all the mp3's, and the server does NOT resume)\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2004\/05\/06\/national\/06CND-TAPE.html\r\n\r\nThe taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, but it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. quality-assurance manager, who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.\r\n\r\nAir Traffic Control Recording of 9\/11 Flight 93\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.thememoryhole.org\/911\/flight93-air-traffic.wma\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-20 18:03:54","modified":"2005-10-20 18:03:54","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/isgs.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/isgs.jpg"}},{"id":137464,"heading":"whoops","article":"the isgs above is one of the machines I operate - this is it's control panel ^","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-20 18:10:14","modified":"2005-10-20 18:10:14","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/injectviser_v10.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/injectviser_v10.jpg"}},{"id":137526,"heading":"What?","article":""the isgs above is one of the machines I operate - this is it's control panel ^"\r\n\r\ncould this possibly be any more irrelevant to this thread? \r\n\r\nhex...that you're a copy and paste fool is one thing but your insane need to brag about the inanities and sad failures (your factory job) of your life is truly pathetic.\r\n\r\nalmost as pathetic as yet another nonsensical thread about the 9-11 "conspiracy".\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-21 03:25:18","modified":"2005-10-21 03:25:18","fileurl":""},{"id":137538,"heading":"back to the burgers","article":"Get back to work, Fresca, or that eager young manager at Burger King will be really angry at the slowdown in burger production. No one knows exactly what happened on 9\/11 except the people who planned it. Whether this was the Mossad, the the Bush Administration or some allegedly powerful terrorist group is still open to question. None of the suspicious questions about the building collapses, the faiure to scramble interceptor planes, or other matters have been satisfactorily answered - except in the eyes of people like you, who believe everything they hear on Fox News or the Rush Limbaugh Show.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-21 12:54:59","modified":"2005-10-21 12:54:59","fileurl":""},{"id":137587,"heading":"Meyer the Flake","article":"Hey Meyer... take a break from the cash register at the drive thru and get yourself a plane ticket to Cuba. Arby's won't last forever, ya know.","author":"Tramp","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-21 21:27:41","modified":"2005-10-21 21:27:41","fileurl":""},{"id":137589,"heading":"squibs","article":"high speed jets of flame and debris shooting from the buildings.\r\nThat with all the dust are hallmarks of H.E.\r\nBut like the OK bombing, all the evidence was removed by the same company, Controlled Demolitions.\r\nHardly a theory. Also, like the JFK hit, the media will NEVER cover the cover up. That is why they are becoming irrelevant and farcical.","author":"look at the demolition of the WTCs","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-21 22:24:38","modified":"2005-10-21 22:24:38","fileurl":""},{"id":137595,"heading":"Clara - sittin` in a shoe shine shop","article":"> nonsensical\r\n\r\n- the actual tapes\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: the machine\r\n\r\nyou claimed fastfood on me too, the machine pic came up because I was attempting to get the manual for the controller (above)\r\n\r\nobviously you didn't get the whole point that I decided to work this job with specific goals which have been met BTW\r\n\r\ndifficult to put down something you know nothing about\r\n\r\nnow as to guarding the threads for deadly topic shifts that screech carries little weight considering who's making it..\r\n\r\ntopics like YOU represent a shift as well - but here YOU are doing it too - funny YOU didn't object to that\r\n\r\nshe sits & shines & shines & sits -\r\nsits & shines & shines & sits\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 07:22:21","modified":"2005-10-22 07:22:21","fileurl":""},{"id":137600,"heading":"The DVD In Plane Sight","article":"This DVD shows a huge blast cloud coming from the base of the tower before it comes down.","author":"back to the WTCs","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 12:30:02","modified":"2005-10-22 12:30:02","fileurl":""},{"id":137602,"heading":"Fresca\/Tramp","article":" Why don't you try something new - utilize whatever brain cells you have to consider a different point of view from what you have been fed by ranting crackpots on Fox or on imbecile radio talk shows? No one has given a convincing explantation yet as to why those towers fell so fast and in the same fashion as controlled demolitions. Or why the airliners were not intercepted by US military planes. Or how the amateur pilots pulled off such stunning flying feats. Or as to why a number of other astonishing things happened.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 13:00:40","modified":"2005-10-22 13:00:40","fileurl":""},{"id":137606,"heading":"The Meyer Measure","article":"Welp... there you have it folks... If Meyer London isn't convinced, then by crackie it just didn't happen!\r\n\r\nThe only reality that ever actually occurs is the reality that Meyer tells us is there. If he doesn't believe it then it can't POSSIBLY have happened. \r\n\r\nAin't paranoia grand!","author":"Tramp","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 13:31:32","modified":"2005-10-22 13:31:32","fileurl":""},{"id":137610,"heading":"that makes 50%+ of New York paranoid","article":"And because of fresca and a few of her cohorts believe the government conspiracy theory, without any supporting evidence, it doen't make me a paranoid.\r\nIt makes you a fool.","author":"question of balance","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 16:46:11","modified":"2005-10-22 16:46:11","fileurl":""},{"id":137619,"heading":"Hahahahhaaaaa!","article":"Oh... so if 50% of New Yorkers believe tit hen it MUST be true. I see... so 50% of New York is where all truth emanates from.\r\n\r\nGo back into your leftist rat hole.","author":"grumpy","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 18:50:57","modified":"2005-10-22 18:50:57","fileurl":""},{"id":137623,"heading":"one riechtard's opinion","article":"So your opinion outweighs millions of people who have directly been affected by the TREASON of 9-11 and believe the conspiracy theory of the official explanation is a huge lie.\r\nWhy am I not surprised?","author":"Evil Bastard","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 19:03:43","modified":"2005-10-22 19:03:43","fileurl":""},{"id":137641,"heading":"Meyer the fool","article":""No one has given a convincing explantation yet as to why those towers fell so fast and in the same fashion as controlled demolitions. Or why the airliners were not intercepted by US military planes. Or how the amateur pilots pulled off such stunning flying feats. Or as to why a number of other astonishing things happened."\r\n\r\nMeyer, are you at all for real? Or are you some high art parody of the uber leftist conspiracy cyber nerd?\r\n\r\nA. The towers fell because two fucking JETS crashed into them causing an inferno of jet fuel clearly weakening the structure. Given that there were many floors supported above the damaged floors, once one peice gave way they colla[sed lick houses of cards. 9th grade physics.\r\n\r\nB. Name one case of a hijacked plane being intercepted by US airforces prior to 9-11.\r\n\r\nC. Because they went to US flight schools. Which you already knew.\r\n\r\nC'mon meyer, it's clearly time for YOU to open your mind to the obvious.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 21:45:54","modified":"2005-10-22 21:45:54","fileurl":""},{"id":137642,"heading":"Wow!","article":""No one knows exactly what happened on 9\/11 except the people who planned it. Whether this was the Mossad, "\r\n\r\nI missed this peach the first time through. Of course, one of you Jewhating nitwits would have to suspect the Mossad of this. I mean, who else?","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 21:49:02","modified":"2005-10-22 21:49:02","fileurl":""},{"id":137643,"heading":"Question of delusion","article":""And because of fresca and a few of her cohorts believe the government conspiracy theory,"\r\n\r\nAnd finally for this idiot. Yeah, me and a "few" of my cohorts. And by "a few of my cohorts" you mean just about 99.999% of the world right?\r\n\r\nCohorts like the deplorable Robert Fisk, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky. All just more like minded cohorts of mine who have naively accepted the government version of the story.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 21:52:22","modified":"2005-10-22 21:52:22","fileurl":""},{"id":137646,"heading":" 99.999% of the world right?","article":"That's the percentage of real people unlike yourself who are not twisted, mental and emotional cripples.\r\nNo matter what nick you use.","author":"No, you sick little shit","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 22:40:33","modified":"2005-10-22 22:40:33","fileurl":""},{"id":137649,"heading":""who else?"","article":"They had the motive, the means and the opportunity. That alone makes them suspect. It would be a mighty lame homicide investigator who didn't pursue a lead like that.\r\n\r\nBut the Mossad is not the only suspect.\r\n\r\nSee:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.indybay.org\/news\/2005\/09\/1770611_comment.php#1770876","author":"since you asked . . .","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 22:52:41","modified":"2005-10-22 22:52:41","fileurl":""},{"id":137651,"heading":"thank you(!)","article":"also a good audio to listen to.\r\nhttp:\/\/radio4houston.org\/takingaim\/takingaim020910--9-11-False-Flag-Operation.mp3\r\nRalph is an old hand at Global Justice since his days with the Who Killed Kennedy commision.","author":"That Bastard","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 23:19:19","modified":"2005-10-22 23:19:19","fileurl":""},{"id":137653,"heading":"Great logic","article":""They had the motive, the means and the opportunity. "\r\n\r\nGreat. Well, by that logic, I guess pretty much every other developed country is on the suspect list as well. Too bad for you it's simply irrefutable that it was committed by 19 arab savages.\r\n\r\nThere goes the killer Jew theory.\r\n\r\nAnd if anyone thinks that more than even a fraction of a percent of the thinking world believes any of these indymedia\/cybernut fantasies about 9-11 they are simply either schizophrenic or incredibly dumb.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-22 23:47:29","modified":"2005-10-22 23:47:29","fileurl":""},{"id":137656,"heading":"fresca's up late","article":"I know you're cranky and repeting yourself and all.\r\nAnd calling everyone else crazy (wink wink) but it;s time for those nice pills they bring you in that paper cup.","author":"Nap Time for fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 00:01:27","modified":"2005-10-23 00:01:27","fileurl":""},{"id":137658,"heading":"dancing Mossad","article":"all over the web. Those boys know how to dance. Gimme five yo fresca.","author":"it's there","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 00:12:56","modified":"2005-10-23 00:12:56","fileurl":""},{"id":137676,"heading":"Exactly","article":""all over the web."\r\n\r\nExactly. All over the web. The final frontier of schizophrenia and delusion.\r\n\r\nBut, since it is time for my pills, can you please tell me another bedtime story about the remote controlled airplanes and hidden explosives. Those kinda fairy tales so appeal to crazy folk like me.\r\n\r\nMaybe a nice chemtrail story to start","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 01:36:28","modified":"2005-10-23 01:36:28","fileurl":""},{"id":137681,"heading":""crashed into them causing an inferno"","article":"look - that lady's standing in the "inferno" ^\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-23 02:09:55","modified":"2005-10-23 02:09:55","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/lady_standing_in_hole.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/lady_standing_in_hole.jpg"}},{"id":137685,"heading":"oh, i see","article":"Oh, I get it. So now you're saying that there wasn't even a fire.\r\n\r\nAnd that's some fine proof you have there. \r\n\r\nThose planes just crashed and then the planted neocon explosives went off, huh?\r\n\r\nYou do realize how incredibly foolish you sound right?\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 03:52:21","modified":"2005-10-23 03:52:21","fileurl":""},{"id":137686,"heading":"either an inferno or no fire at all","article":"look at the picture - I don't see any inferno, I see a few smoldering areas here & there, but no inferno\r\n\r\nthe picture shows - not "I say"\r\n\r\n"neocon explosives" - the picture doesn't show that either...\r\n\r\nwords in my mouth, extremes, "I say" not "picture shows"\r\n\r\nno wonder you have other's do your thinking for you\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 10:09:27","modified":"2005-10-23 10:09:27","fileurl":""},{"id":137688,"heading":"are you serious","article":""look at the picture - I don't see any inferno"\r\n\r\nSo what? Are you actually now trying to claim that there was no massive fire in the WTC due to the crash and the jetfuel.\r\n\r\nThat's what you're saying with your picture of God knows what?","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 12:10:12","modified":"2005-10-23 12:10:12","fileurl":""},{"id":137689,"heading":"Dancing Mossad","article":"Dancing +Mossad\r\nhttp:\/\/cooperativeresearch.org\/wot\/sept11\/911mossad.html\r\n\r\nTry it out yourself\r\n\r\nUrban Moving Company +9-11\r\nMossad +USA\r\nFalse +Flag +Mossad.\r\n\r\nFood for thought.","author":"there they are","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 12:14:34","modified":"2005-10-23 12:14:34","fileurl":""},{"id":137690,"heading":"blind as a bat not "massive" or "inferno"","article":" massive fire \r\n\r\nthat's what it would take - a sustained massive fire - to melt those columns (even then it would be a first)\r\n\r\nthat hole would be glowing red hot and burning for that to be true..\r\n\r\nbesides jet fuel burns at a much lower temperature, besides most of it burned up in that spectacular fireball outside, ,besides the fire was oxygen starved, besides it was going out\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-23 12:56:51","modified":"2005-10-23 12:56:51","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/columns.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/columns.jpg"}},{"id":137691,"heading":"This is Good","article":"> Cohorts like the deplorable Robert Fisk, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky.<\r\n\r\nfor christ's sake Noam still doesn't have a clue about the JFK assassination.\r\nAmy needs a spanking 'cause she still calls the chimp 'president'\r\nFisk needs to keep his job.\r\n\r\nAnd I never would have thought the Reich or the JDL would use those academic sources. Whew.","author":":>)","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 12:59:09","modified":"2005-10-23 12:59:09","fileurl":""},{"id":137695,"heading":"infernos and fools","article":"Pretty grouchy, aren't you Fresca? What's the problem - did Mom fail to buy enough cheetos again? No one has argued that roaring "infernos" could not bring down a tall building eventually. But the problem is that not enough time seems to have elapsed for that to happen, and an adtitonal problem is that kerosene fires (which is what jet fuel fires are) don't tend to burn all that long. Thirdly, most of the explosive fire in the second tower hit clearly took place outside the building, not inside. To accept at face value, without question, the Bush Administration's contention that the plane crashes alone generated enough heat to bring down the towers is to reveal yourself as the fool, not the other posters.\r\n There has never been another hijacking incident like 9\/11 before, so there is no need to name other hijackings in which US interceptors were sent up to intercept the passenger planes. There has still been no convincng explanation as to why one plane was allowed to fly all the way to Ohio and back without being intercepted, even though the towers had already been hit. That shows a level of incompetence hard to believe even in the case of the Bush Administration - or it shows deliberate complicity.\r\n Trained in US flight schools? They got a few lessons in flying light propeller planes, and some of them did very badly even in that. Where did they get the skill to hit the towers, or, even more incredible, the low Pentagon with mighty jet liners travelling at hundreds of miles per hour? That is no more believable than Lee Harvey Oswald getting off all those accurate shots with a bolt-action hunting rifle within a few seconds - a feat which no skilled marksman has ever been able to repeat. \r\n As for the Mossad, they seem to me like a stronger candidate for involvement in running this operation than a guy sitting in a cave in Afghanistan. And a government morally capapble of ordering the attack on a US intelligence vessel in 1967 is certainly capable of ordering an attack on the World Trade Center if it thought that it would benefit the interests of Israel by leading to US attacks on Muslim states.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 14:39:01","modified":"2005-10-23 14:39:01","fileurl":""},{"id":137707,"heading":"Whatever gets you through the nught","article":""No one has argued that roaring "infernos" could not bring down a tall building eventually."\r\n\r\nFirst of all Meyer, on this very thread hex is trying to argue that ibdeed there was no fire. \r\n\r\nLook, you can believe what you want to believe and if it's more comforting for you to believe that the attacks were the work of either Bush or your hated Jews rather then the group who has actually admitted to, bragged about, and has all evidence pointing to it then by all means be my guest.\r\n\r\nIt's sorta silly but feel free.\r\n\r\nThat Bush and company almost assuredly saw the attacks as a perfect convenient precursor to actions in the Middle East is something I wouldn't argue. In fact I'm glad they did. But that's a different topic.\r\n\r\nBut to simply deny all evidence, laws of physics and maintain a fantastical belief in some sort of super conspiracy is just plain dumb or crazy.\r\n\r\nNow, your music tip for the day.\r\n\r\nFuck Forever by Babyshambles.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 19:21:25","modified":"2005-10-23 19:21:25","fileurl":""},{"id":137711,"heading":"all evidence","article":"Show us the 'evidunce'.\r\nThere isn't any which can stand any legal review; at least the conspiracy theory of the administration. ","author":"where is it?","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 19:47:29","modified":"2005-10-23 19:47:29","fileurl":""},{"id":137714,"heading":"inferno\/massive or "there was NO fire"","article":"strawman - I never said NO fire, but NO fire isn't massive or inferno either\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-23 20:23:06","modified":"2005-10-23 20:23:06","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/one_extreme_or_another.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/one_extreme_or_another.jpg"}},{"id":137717,"heading":"well,","article":""Show us the 'evidunce'. "\r\n\r\nWe can start and end at the cell phone calls from the planes describing the swarthy arab savages and of course the NUMEROUS video and audio tapes from bun laden et.al. clearly boasting of the attack.\r\n\r\nBut the largest most damining peice of "evidence" is simply the fact that, short of a tiny handful of conspiracy theorists, no serious thinking person including the bulk of the most anti-bush leftist pundits even considers your silly notion of a Bush\/CIA\/Mossad\/what-have-you conspiracy\/coverup.\r\n\r\nAnd as for a lack of evidence, the conspiracy side has not a single shred of evidence. You all pose all sorts of questions but that's not eveidence. You ask, "why were'nt the planes intercepted?". Who knows? Ineptitude probably. But that means absolutely nothing. We do howver know, beyond a doubt that arab men hijacked four planes. Numerous eyewitness accounts from the planes verify this. Maybe they were CIA agents. Seems unlikely since a mass suicide was required and that doesn't seem to be their style much less almost any non-muslim culture. Combine this from scads of confessions\/boastings\/braggings from bin laden and his other cronies and the whole thing is fairly a no-brainer. \r\n\r\nThe ineptitude of our response and prior intel breakdown is certainly an issue but the fact that on 9-11 we were attacked by 19 muslim animals is irrefutable.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-23 22:27:38","modified":"2005-10-23 22:27:38","fileurl":""},{"id":137724,"heading":"try it sometime","article":"Still wavimg the same old crap, huh?\r\nNow you're being absurd.\r\n\r\nHa ha ha ha ha ha. Cell phone calls.\r\nYou bust my onions. Ha ha ha ha.","author":"'cell phone calls'","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-24 00:51:30","modified":"2005-10-24 00:51:30","fileurl":""},{"id":137729,"heading":"Oh really","article":"So you're one of those " cell phones don't work in airplanes" people huh?\r\n\r\nI guess those skyphones in the back of every seat are just props right?\r\n\r\nYou're camp is getting dumber by the minute.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-24 02:08:26","modified":"2005-10-24 02:08:26","fileurl":""},{"id":137776,"heading":"the story was that she was in the head.","article":"and you call his evidence? Ha ha \r\nLike the passport?\r\nHa ha ha.\r\npoof'\r\nmajical passports, hijackers and cell phones calls.\r\nlike the majic bullet.\r\n\r\nHa ha ha ha \r\n \r\n\r\n","author":"yar","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-24 13:05:20","modified":"2005-10-24 13:05:20","fileurl":""},{"id":137777,"heading":"" You're camp"","article":"I think you're camp too.\r\nkiss kiss","author":"awww shucks","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-24 13:11:09","modified":"2005-10-24 13:11:09","fileurl":""},{"id":137788,"heading":"what about these then ?","article":"19 - well subtract these and what's left ?\r\n\r\nnot a single person arrested FOR 9-11 either..\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-24 19:06:42","modified":"2005-10-24 19:06:42","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/still_alive.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/still_alive.jpg"}},{"id":137813,"heading":"please","article":"This is fun!\r\n\r\nPlease show us any credible evidence that any of these same exact people...the same mind you, not just some other towelhead with a similiar name...are still alive..\r\n\r\nPlease respond. This oughta be rich.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-24 23:19:28","modified":"2005-10-24 23:19:28","fileurl":""},{"id":137822,"heading":"better idea","article":"Why don't YOU show US that THEY boarded ANY plane?\r\n\r\nThat WAS fun.","author":"Idea Factory","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 00:08:40","modified":"2005-10-25 00:08:40","fileurl":""},{"id":137825,"heading":""This oughta be rich"","article":"http:\/\/news.bbc.co.uk\/hi\/english\/world\/middle_east\/newsid_1559000\/1559151.stm\r\n\r\n\r\naired by the BBC, ABC and CNN, along with several British newspapers\r\n\r\nSunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK \r\nHijack 'suspects' alive and well\r\n\r\nAnother of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well. \r\n\r\nThe identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt. \r\n\r\n(fresca) "the fact that on 9-11 we were attacked by 19 muslim animals is irrefutable"\r\n\r\nSOOO BBC, ABC and CNN are wrong - fresca is right !\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-10-25 01:02:42","modified":"2005-10-25 01:02:42","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/not_credible.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/not_credible.jpg"}},{"id":137830,"heading":"well, yeah","article":""the fact that on 9-11 we were attacked by 19 muslim animals is irrefutable" "\r\n\r\nUh, yeah. It sure seems to be. There certainly hasn't been any evidence at all to the contrary.\r\n\r\nI mean, face it, the best case scenario that you con-theory fools have going for you is the MISTAKEN IDENTITY of one or two or even all of the sandscratchers. But sandscratchers they were.\r\n\r\nAnd hex, here's a tip. If you're going to post evidence of your assertion that 8 of the 19 animals are still alive, don't post that only four MAY have had thir identities mistaken. It's just not very compeling or logical.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 03:02:09","modified":"2005-10-25 03:02:09","fileurl":""},{"id":137845,"heading":"'sandscratchers'","article":"how trite.\r\nOut of arguments, facts and reason.\r\nBut still sqawking the same racist noise.","author":"running on MT","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 12:08:57","modified":"2005-10-25 12:08:57","fileurl":""},{"id":137850,"heading":"persistance","article":"We have this very dedicated troll,\r\nSensative issues here about media control, the Mossad and the Flase Flag operation of 9-11. The sad part is that although fresca believes she is defending the intrests of the zionist agenda, she most likely can't see the damage she is doing to the Jewish people by defending, lieing apoligising and propagandizing her brand of distastefull zionazi savagery in its assosiation with people of the Jewish faith whom are decent moral people.\r\nEither too stupid or just another snake with an agenda of murder.\r\nTake your pic.","author":"it's kinda funny","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 13:30:38","modified":"2005-10-25 13:30:38","fileurl":""},{"id":137851,"heading":"Oh, please!","article":"Please don't flatter yourself. None of my motivation for being here and happily engaging you fools has anything at all to do with politics or ideaology. i don't consider any of you even capable or particularly interested in that. I see you all for simply crazy internet conspiracy theorist with a clear silly leftist leaning.\r\n\r\nYou're simply fodder and great fun to poke at. As it happens with this thread, simply tossing out simple facts gets you all worked up. Then it actually becomes a game as to how long it'll take for the "zionist" comments to start flying. Funny for two reasons. First I'm not Jewish nor am I particularly concerned with Zionist affairs. Secondly, Being called a zionist is hardly an insult anyway. \r\n\r\nAnyway, you all (I'm sure it's actually just hex and some other goof changing names) are great fun. Not to bright. But alot of fun.\r\n\r\nBut please try and step up your 9-11 con-theories. They're flimsy and getting kinda boring.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 13:42:38","modified":"2005-10-25 13:42:38","fileurl":""},{"id":137856,"heading":"ET 24\/7","article":"'that's entertainment' doesn't cut with the insessent call for genocide or the compulsive chanting eho of the zionist lobby.\r\nYour agenda is murder even if you are a bit dull. \r\nOr without a soul or other moral compass.\r\nEither way your kind are dangerious psychopaths.","author":"weasels on meth","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 14:46:19","modified":"2005-10-25 14:46:19","fileurl":""},{"id":137869,"heading":"huh?","article":""insessent call for genocide"\r\n\r\nPlease show me where I've called for genocide. I've called for the extermination of murderous islamist monsters, a needed end to backwards islamic culture\/states and have noted the de-evolution of the arab muslim world, but that's in no way genocide.\r\n\r\nSo please save your hyperbole and crocodile tears and keep entertaining me.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 17:37:16","modified":"2005-10-25 17:37:16","fileurl":""},{"id":137872,"heading":"too messed up","article":"and. if say. we talked of only killing Jews....\r\nnah,\r\nno moral compass, just zionazi spew ( but plentlful and dedicated)\r\n from a bitter cup. Bringing hate upon Jews.","author":"it's only genocide","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 17:49:29","modified":"2005-10-25 17:49:29","fileurl":""},{"id":137880,"heading":""actually just hex"","article":"no I only post as Hex and (with rare spoof exceptions) no one else posts as me\r\n\r\nAlthough it appears you post as a handful of handles but stick to "fresca" 80 % of the time, "tramp" 12 % of the time, "BA" 6 % of the time and assorted whim handles 2 % of the time\r\n\r\nas to your purpose on here, it's to waste as much of our time as possible for your personal amusement\r\n\r\nany illusion of discussion where facts are presented and rebuffed, refuted or disputed is just that - an illusion\r\n\r\nyour "facts" are merely you saying so -\r\n\r\nphotographs, FIOA documents, tapes MEAN NOTHING\r\n\r\ngood thing the evidence we present is for the readership - this is the truth and this is how you expose and refute a troll with it - use these points & URL's on other real-life trolls when they parrot mindless right-wing PR {like fresca does}\r\n\r\nfresca is a practice target being pierced by the arrows of truth\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 19:13:27","modified":"2005-10-25 19:13:27","fileurl":""},{"id":137881,"heading":"Limitations on questioning official 9\/11 line","article":"Let me get this straight - according to Fresca, no one should feel justified in questioning hard to believe government explanations of what happened on 9\/11 (such as the amateur pilots performing astounding flying feats, giant office towers collapsing after a brief fire, or the US Air Force allowing a hijacked airliner to fly from the east coast to Ohio and back without intercepting it even though the Towers had already been attacked) unless they can provide concrete and irrefutable evidence as to just who planned and carried out 9\/11 and exactly how they did it. This is roughly equivalent to stating that no one should question the wilder Warren Commission theories on the Kennedy assassination (such as the magic bullet theory or the story that Oswald was able to fire so many accurate shots in such a tiny space of time with a clumsy, inaccurate, bolt-action rifle) unless they can give the names, social security numbers, birthdates, grandmother's maiden names and places of birth of the people who actually did plan and carry out the deed. \r\n This is rubbish because it is irrational. It is the government that is putting out hard to believe stories explaining 9\/11 and it is up to the government to provide strong evidence that these explanations are valid. So far they have not. Nevertheless, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh accept the Bush Administration explanations as gospel so our friend Fresca does the same, demonstrating the effect that eating too many cheetos apparantly has on critical thinking ability.\r\n \r\n","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 19:22:15","modified":"2005-10-25 19:22:15","fileurl":""},{"id":137883,"heading":"Bad math and investigation","article":""Although it appears you post as a handful of handles but stick to "fresca" 80 % of the time, "tramp" 12 % of the time, "BA" 6 % of the time and assorted whim handles 2 % of the time"\r\n\r\nFor what it's worth, I've only posted as something other then fresca about 8 or 9 times total. And they've all been as either sheepdog, Diogenes or kpc in order to post a clearly sarcastic comment.\r\n\r\nnever as tramp and certainly not as BA. He does well enough on his own.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 21:39:33","modified":"2005-10-25 21:39:33","fileurl":""},{"id":137884,"heading":"Meyer","article":"You and yours have so many far flung theories floating around that even you can't keep up. The aspect of your worldview that is the most fascinating is that you'll jump on ANY ship as long as it accuses the US or Jews as the bad guys. Of course, you dismiss out of hand the very notion that almost the entirety of the rest of the world believes which is that arab islamists caused the attack. That is just wayyyy too crazy a notion for you. AFter all, they NEVER commit acts of terrorism and they certainly didn't try the same thing 10 years earlier and of course, they haven't claimed responsibility for the attcks OVER and OVER again.\r\n\r\nSo Meyer, who's being the lackey here?\r\n\r\nQuestion the governments ineptitude all you want, I'm with you, but to deny the obvious is simply insane. Whatever could have been done to prevent the attacks doesn't change the fact that we WERE attacked by muslim subhumans.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 21:47:44","modified":"2005-10-25 21:47:44","fileurl":""},{"id":137886,"heading":"over and over","article":"and now with the introduction of ( sizzors and paste, supplied by the CIA ) majic 'confession' videos, the frecsa list becomes complete.\r\nAbracadabra! wink wink\r\n","author":"same old shit","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-25 22:06:35","modified":"2005-10-25 22:06:35","fileurl":""},{"id":137892,"heading":"ha ! - wrong again","article":"> didn't try the same thing 10 years earlier (the '93 WTC bombing)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nTHE NEW YORK TIMES\r\n\r\n* * * * * \r\nThe New York Times Section A;\r\nPage 1; Column 4; Metropolitan Desk October 28, 1993,\r\nThursday, Late Edition - Final Correction Appended\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"\r\n\r\nCopyright 1993 The New York Times Company \r\n\r\nThe New York Times \r\n\r\nOctober 29, 1993, Friday, Late Edition - Final \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 5; Metropolitan Desk \r\n\r\nLENGTH: 1036 words \r\n\r\nHEADLINE: Plot Warning Is Reviewed By the F.B.I. \r\n\r\nBYLINE: By RALPH BLUMENTHAL \r\n\r\nBODY: \r\nThe Federal Bureau of Investigation is reviewing the allegations of an informer who said after the World Trade Center explosion that he had warned law-enforcement agents of a plot to build a bomb, and that if they had worked with him, they would have prevented the blast, officials said. \r\nBut some officials disputed important parts of the informant's account yesterday, saying that conversations with him took place half a year before the attack on the trade center, and months before the bomb was actually built. \r\nThe comments of the informer, Emad A. Salem, are in transcripts of telephone conversations with the police and F.B.I. agents that Mr. Salem secretly recorded. In the transcripts, Mr. Salem is quoted as saying that the bombing could have been foiled but for an F.B.I. supervisor's rejection of a plan to have him work with the plotters building the bomb, then substitute harmless powder for the explosives. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOctober 31, 1993, Sunday, Late Edition - Final \r\nCorrection Appended \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nSECTION: Section 1; Page 37; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk \r\n\r\nLENGTH: 2552 words \r\n\r\nHEADLINE: Bomb Informer's Tapes Give Rare Glimpse of F.B.I. Dealings \r\n\r\nBYLINE: By RICHARD BERNSTEIN with RALPH BLUMENTHAL \r\n\r\nBODY: \r\nIt is shortly after a bomb has blown a hole five stories deep at the World Trade Center and an F.B.I. agent is talking to Emad A. Salem, the former Egyptian army officer who is the bureau's secret source of information, its most valuable undercover operative. \r\nBut rather than talk about the conspiracy, about who was involved in it and how it was done, Mr. Salem's concerns are more mundane, involving unpaid parking tickets, the tolls he pays as he travels between New York and New Jersey, the expenses of using his own car to carry out his informer's duties. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-26 00:23:40","modified":"2005-10-26 00:23:40","fileurl":""},{"id":137900,"heading":"Of course","article":""and now with the introduction of ( sizzors and paste, supplied by the CIA ) majic 'confession' videos,"\r\n\r\nOf course, now you're delving way deep into con-theory psychosis.\r\n\r\nDeny all clear proof refuting your theory as just more black workings by the man. Conspiracy theory defense 101.\r\n\r\nThis is truly great stuff!\r\n\r\nI have to say that to have access to you particular type of crazy folk (paranoid conspiracy theorists) and to be able to directly rile you all up while so soundly trouncing your feeble arguments is a simply great treat.\r\n\r\nThank you.\r\n\r\nOh, and by the way, what the hell are you going on about there Hex. More inane rambling non-sequitors?","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-26 02:27:21","modified":"2005-10-26 02:27:21","fileurl":""},{"id":137918,"heading":"and pops goes the weasel","article":"And of course we all know how the CIA or the Mossad can be trusted with the truth. \r\nAll warm and fuzzy and nice stuff like that.","author":"wind her up","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-26 12:35:26","modified":"2005-10-26 12:35:26","fileurl":""},{"id":137954,"heading":"Oh sure","article":""And of course we all know how the CIA or the Mossad can be trusted with the truth. "\r\n\r\nOh sure. Them and all the internet portals of hearsay and delusion.\r\n\r\nThey're much more reliable.\r\n\r\nMe, I'll just stick with empirical evidence. You know, eyewitness accounts and confessions. Silly things like that.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-26 21:47:17","modified":"2005-10-26 21:47:17","fileurl":""},{"id":137956,"heading":"you havn't shown any","article":"Majic passports, hijackers, cell phone calls and CIA videos which would be laughed out of any court due to the -ahem- questionable chain of evidence ( read planted pasted or outright fabrications without any substaniation ) and the conflicts of intrests of the primary suspects involved in the event, make you another jabermonkey.\r\nBut certainly a dedecated one.","author":"' empirical evidence'","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-26 22:20:11","modified":"2005-10-26 22:20:11","fileurl":""},{"id":137963,"heading":"You got me","article":"You've finally got me. I'm convinced. \r\n\r\nAs of now I will no longer be swayed by the neocon lunacy that has poisoned the minds of virtually every human on earth with regards to 9-11. I will not, unlike these sorry other 6 billion or so people, believe the lies of the Bushites and dirty Jews.\r\n\r\nFrom here on out I believe the obvious facts of remote controlled airplanes, dirty Jews dancing in the street, complete CIA control over ALL alqueda faux transmissions and chemtrails.\r\n\r\nOh yeah, and the complete silence from all of the necessary hundreds or thousands of people required to stage this particular fascist false flag operation.\r\n\r\nGood stuff.\r\n\r\nNow when do I get my tinfoil hat?","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 00:22:09","modified":"2005-10-27 00:22:09","fileurl":""},{"id":137966,"heading":"what?","article":"I'm sure they were cleaner than you.","author":"is that true?","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 01:40:41","modified":"2005-10-27 01:40:41","fileurl":""},{"id":137967,"heading":"Now don't overdress...","article":"> virtually every human on earth \r\n\r\neat shit - a million flies can't be wrong !\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> dirty Jews \/ dirty Jews\r\n\r\n\r\nbeyond the usual cheap shot of hiding under Jewish shirts, the FBI and mainstream news outlets reported these events (of Israeli agents celebrating, traces of explosives detected in the van, the "art student" spy ring, the addresses of said "art students" and so-called 9\/11 hijackers being so near, the same Israeli owned moving company being involved in the '93 bombing as well)\r\n\r\n\r\naccording to FBI documents\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> complete CIA control over ALL alqueda faux transmissions and chemtrails\r\n\r\n\r\nno one's ever even presented any evidence *linking them to 9\/11 in the first place* plus they are a known CIA asset to begin with\r\n\r\n\r\n"Chemtrails" being thrown in for hyperbolic kicks\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> complete silence from all of the necessary hundreds or thousands of people \r\n \r\n\r\nMany Firefighters and police were told to keep quiet about the EXPLOSIONS they saw, heard and felt, the public safety tapes were destroyed (cut into 1\/4" pieces - as reported by the New York Times and other media outlets, as the FAA issued a press statement about)\r\n\r\n\r\nThen there's the PUT OPTION paper trail - people actually *heavyly bet in the days right before 9\/11 that the airlines, re-insurers and brokerage firms involved would take a hit on the value of their stocks*\r\n\r\nThe FBI dropped the investigation then buried it..\r\n\r\nNo steel frame building ever collapsed due to fire before but on 9\/11 THREE (3) did. And WTC 7 wasn't even hit !\r\n\r\nIn all normal crime scenes the evidence is preserved - but not this time\r\n\r\nNo swaps were even taken of the beams before they were wisked away overseas to check for explosive residues. They also refuse to release the floor plans or info about what modifications they were making or made.\r\n\r\nYou don't need a tin hat because you're already wearing blinders & earmuffs\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"image\/gif","created":"2005-10-27 01:41:06","modified":"2005-10-27 01:41:06","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/windsorfirecombo.gif","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/10\/windsorfirecombo.gif"}},{"id":137968,"heading":"Uh, right","article":""no one's ever even presented any evidence *linking them to 9\/11 in the first place* plus they are a known CIA asset to begin with"\r\n\r\nUh right, except for all the claims of responsibilty and countless boastings of al queda about the attack. Just a tiny little linlk like that.\r\n\r\nOf course, any evidence that proves that it was filthy towelheads who attacked us MUST be a construct of the CIA or those Jews you hate.\r\n\r\n"known CIA asset to begin with"\r\n\r\nUh, yeah. So since we funded a bunch of koranimals against the Soviets in the 80's (what a COLOSSAL mistake that was) and they morphed into al queda years later that makes them an asset of the CIA. Uh, right. Brilliant analysis there hex.\r\n\r\nANd as far as the dancing Jews or put options...I might as well be arguing with you over your belief in the tooth fairie. Clearly, you'll believe ANYTHING as long as it bucks mainstream acceptance and it stems from an HTML document.\r\n\r\nYou're silly.\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 01:59:33","modified":"2005-10-27 01:59:33","fileurl":""},{"id":137971,"heading":""dancing Jews or put options \/ you'll believe ANYTHING"","article":"http:\/\/www.cbsnews.com\/stories\/2004\/08\/27\/eveningnews\/main639143.shtml\r\n\r\nCBS News broke the story of an Israeli spy in the Pentagon \r\n\r\n\r\n60-page draft of an internal report by the intelligence division of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA). It's existence was confirmed by spokesmen from the DEA and the Justice Department headed "Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities"\r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/antiwar.com\/rep\/DEA_Report_redactedxx.pdf\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nThe New Jersey connection recalls the infamous incident involving the "dancing Israelis," arrested on 9\/11 when seen leaping and dancing for joy in a park overlooking the Hudson River as the World Trade Center burned. The five detainees were Israeli citizens who worked for a New Jersey moving company, Urban Moving Systems\r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/abclocal.go.com\/wabc\/news\/WABC_091401_airports.html\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.haaretzdaily.com\/hasen\/pages\/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/ww1.sundayherald.com\/37707\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nWide reports -- including a 9\/28\/01 story in the Asian Wall Street Journal and a 10\/1\/01 story in The Guardian -- indicate that investigators are checking Deutschebank's alleged links to Saudi "private banking," terrorist bank accounts, and $2.5 million in unclaimed United Airlines (UAL) put options profits.\r\n\r\nAccording to a 10-19-2001 Wall Street Journal report, an unnamed investor purchased 2,000 United Airlines (UAL) put option contracts through Deutsche Bank-Alex Brown on September 6 -- betting the stock would shortly plummet. And USA Today reported that an individual purchased 810 UAL puts on August 6.\r\n\r\n Additional companies hit hard by the insider trading included Axa Re(insurance) and Munich Re as well as American investment giants Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley.\r\n\r\n A Baron's source claimed on 10-8-2001 that the pre-attack UAL order placed through Deutsche Bank was for 2,500 contracts which were "split into 500 chunks each, directing each order to different U.S. exchanges around the country simultaneously." \r\n\r\n According to San Francisco Chronicle reporters Christian Berthelsen and Scott Winokur a source familiar with the UAL trades said investors have yet to claim $2.5 million in profits on contracts purchased before United airliners crashed into a New York Trade Tower and a deserted Pennsylvania field on September 11. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nBetween September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put options on United Airlines, but only 396 call options. On September 10, 4,516 put options on American Airlines were bought on the Chicago exchange, compared to only 748 calls.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nAs reported in the 9\/11 Commission report, the 2002 congressional intelligence committees' joint inquiry into the terrorist attacks, newspaper and magazine reports, Fox News telecasts, 9\/11 hijacker timelines, FBI suspect lists, and an East Rutherford (New Jersey) Police Department report.\r\n\r\n\r\n"EIR Blows Israeli Spies' Cover in Sept. 11 Case," EIR Dec. 28, 2001, and "Israeli Spies Scandal Is Too Big To Bury," EIR Jan. 11, 2002\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nThe Times Herald\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.timesherald.com\/site\/news.cfm?newsid=15114089&BRD=1672&PAG=461&dept_id=33380&rfi=6\r\n\r\n\r\nThe investigation by the FBI leads to the exposure of the largest foreign spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, operated by Israel. Half of the suspected spies have been arrested when 9-11 happens. On 9-11, 5 Israelis are arrested for dancing and cheering while the World Trade Towers collapse. Supposedly employed by Urban Moving Systems, the Israelis are caught with multiple passports and a lot of cash. Two of them are later revealed to be Mossad. As witness reports track the activity of the Israelis, it emerges that they were seen at Liberty Park at the time of the first impact, suggesting a foreknowledge of what was to come. The Israelis are interrogated, and then eventually sent back to Israel. The owner of the moving company used as a cover by the Mossad agents abandons his business and flees to Israel. The United States Government then classifies all of the evidence related to the Israeli agents and their connections to 9-11. All of this is reported to the public via a four part story on Fox News by Carl Cameron.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOne of the memorandum's most fascinating revelations puts the Israelis and would-be 9\/11 hijackers in close proximity geographically in the months prior to the terrorist attacks in Florida, Oklahoma and New Jersey.\r\n\r\nAs the DEA was compiling its report in June 2001, 15 or the 19 plotters of the Sept. 11 attacks were living in the Hollywood, Fla., area, according to Shea's research, and more than 30 of the young Israelis also lived in the same area during this time period.\r\n\r\nAccording to the memorandum, some of the Israelis and hijackers in Florida lived "within hundreds of yards" of each other.\r\n\r\n\r\nOn Sept. 11, 2001, five Israeli men in a van marked "Urban Moving Systems," were detained after East Rutherford police were told that the men were "smiling and exchanging high-fives" when they saw the Trade Center burning across the Hudson River, according to the memorandum.\r\n\r\nAn arresting officer, Sgt. Dennis Rivelli, now a lieutenant with the East Rutherford police, reported that one of the suspects said "We're Israelis" when police stopped them on Sept. 11. \r\nAccording to the memorandum, the men - Sivan Kurzberg, Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari - were questioned by the FBI and detained for several weeks. Eventually, they were deported on visa violations.\r\n\r\nAccording to Shea, Dominik Suter, listed as the owner of the "Urban Moving Systems," was questioned by the FBI, but then fled the country. Eventually, Suter's name appeared on the May 2002 FBI Suspect List, along with the Sept. 11 hijackers and other suspected Muslim extremists.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nOn the evening of Sept. 11, local police in Bergen County, New Jersey, arrested five Israeli nationals as they were driving a van, owned by their employer, a Weehawken, N.J. moving company called Urban Moving Systems.\r\n\r\nThe five Israelis, Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Moer Marmari, and Yaron Shmuel, had been spotted on the roof of the moving company warehouse, shortly after planes crashed into the World Trade Center towers, taking photos of one another and obviously clowning around, while pointing at the burning towers in the background.\r\n\r\nPerleman reported, "In addition to their strange behavior and their Middle Eastern looks, the suspicions were compounded when a box cutter and $4,000 in cash were found in the van. Moreover, one man carried two passports, and another had fresh pictures of the men standing with the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center in the background."\r\n\r\nThe five men were turned over to the FBI by the Bergen County police, and, after two of the men's names appeared on an FBI-CIA list of known Mossad operatives, the U.S. opened a foreign counterintelligence investigation of the incident. The Israelis were held for several months, interrogated and put through lie detector tests, and were eventually deported back to Israel.\r\n\r\nAfter one brief interview with the FBI, the owner of the moving company, Dominik Otto Suter, fled to Israel. Authorities confirmed that the company was a Mossad front, whose "main office" was a letter drop address in midtown Manhattan.\r\n\r\n\r\nName DOB POB Israeli Passort # US Visa #\r\nYaron OHANA 02-04-78 Haifa, Israel 8421721 42252049\r\nRonen KALFON 04-13-76 Haifa, Israel 8168262 35966019\r\nZeev COHEN 03-26-78 Haifa, Israel 5524033 33331965\r\nNaor TOPAZ 06-08-77 Haifa, Israel 8081705 33306515\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n4-12-92 Kenya Immigration (entry) stamp and visa\r\n4-28-92 Kenya Exit Stamp\r\n4-28-92 Israel Entry Stamp\r\n4-31-92 Israel Exit Stamp\r\n8-13-95 Israel Entry Stamp\r\n8-17-95 Taba Border Control entry (Israel)\r\n07-25-96 Haifa Border Control exit (Israel)\r\n07-27-96 ? pireas\r\n08-07-96 ? same as above athina\r\n07-07-97 Cyprus entry as visitor, max stay until 7-21-97\r\n7-12-97 Cyprus exit\r\n7-13-97 Israel entry\r\n7-08-98 Israel Entry Stamp MA\r\n8-28-99 Israel exit\r\n8-28-99 Amsterdam\r\n09-01-99 Amsterdam (?)\r\n09-01-99 Israel entry\r\n199? Arabic ? unknown (2 stamps entry and exit?)\r\nUndated Brazil\r\n03-03-2000 Israel exit\r\n03-10-2000 Amsterdam unknown\r\n03-10-2000 Israel entry\r\n09-15-2000 Israel exit\r\n09-15-2000 U.S. (New York) entry B-1\/B-2 Visa issued 7-5-2000\r\n09-20-2000 Mexico entry\r\n10-13-2000 Mexico exit\r\n10-13-2000 Guatemala entry\r\n11-18-2000 Aeropuerto Juan Santamaria Entry Stamp\r\n12-08-2000 Panama entry\r\n12-08-2000 Cosa Rica exit with postage type stamp\r\n12-11-2000 ? Spanish language entry\r\n12-11-2000 Panama exit\r\n12-13-2000 Bogot\u00e1, Colombia entry\r\n02-05-2001 Bogot\u00e1, Colombia exit\r\n02-05-2001 ? Spanish language visa or immigration stamp\r\n03-09-2001 U.S. (New York) entry \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nWATERMANN stated he was recently discharged from the Israel military, and was taking a trip around the world, WATERMANN had in his possession airline tickets with the following itinerary: \r\n\r\nApril 11, 2001 Tel Aviv - Toronto\r\nApril 15, 2001 Toronto - Newark\r\nApril 19, 2001 Newark - Chicago\r\nAug 01, 2001 Chicago - Las Vegas\r\nAug 04, 2001 Las Vegas - San Francisco\r\nAug 08, 2001 San Francisco - Los Angeles\r\nAug 10, 2001 Los Angeles - Honolulu\r\nAug 13, 2001 Honolulu - Sydney, Australia\r\nJan 10, 2002 Sydney - Hong Kong\r\nJan 17, 2002 Hong Kong - Frankfurt - Tel Aviv \r\n\r\nThe ticket was issued by the Sititara Travel Agency in Jerusalem. The cost of the ticket' was $2,634 (U.S.). \r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/cryptome.org\/dea-il-spy.htm\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 02:59:17","modified":"2013-11-11 00:35:47","fileurl":""},{"id":137973,"heading":"Nice work","article":"nice work non-sequitor boy. You've spent the better part of the last hour copying and pasting a long winded diatribe about what? Nothing.\r\n\r\nThe put option nonsense is the same stuff we've been hearing for years, Alot of "unamed" investors making alot of trades. Maybe. All very unanamed and untraceable (how convenient for the con-theory set). If they were to have actually happened at all, could it have been the work of , just maybe, the koranimals who devised the attacks to begin with? Nah.\r\n\r\nAnd as for the c and p job condemning the Jews, so what's your point? At worst some scumbag Israeli's were probably overjoyed that the attacks by these muslims was soon to lead to alot more dead muslims.\r\n\r\nYour searching the troves of internet nonsense and AGAIN copying and pasting the movements of some israeli who may or may not be Mossad hardly changes the irrefutable fact that the hijackers were arab muslims.\r\n\r\nNow, let's see if you can waste another hour or so plagiarizing even more of your internet nut friends.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 03:18:55","modified":"2005-10-27 03:18:55","fileurl":""},{"id":137975,"heading":"actually I was reading - you should try it","article":"1.) CBS News\r\n\r\n2.) ABC News\r\n\r\n3.) Haaretz daily\r\n\r\n4.) The Sunday Herald\r\n\r\n5.) The Times Herald \r\n\r\n6.) Wall Street Journal\r\n\r\n7.) The Guardian\r\n\r\n8.) USA Today\r\n\r\n9.) Baron's\r\n\r\n10.) San Francisco Chronicle\r\n\r\n11.) Fox News \r\n\r\n12.) The FBI\r\n\r\n13.) Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) - the actual report\r\n\r\n14.) Chicago Board Options Exchange\r\n\r\n15.) 9\/11 Commission report\r\n\r\n16.) Congressional Intelligence Committee\r\n\r\n17.) East Rutherford Police Department\r\n\r\n18.) EIR\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> non-sequitor, Nothing, nonsense, nonsense\r\n\r\nthose are some dark shades you have on - 18 SOLID sources and that's the best you can do...\r\n\r\ngood thing the info is for *readers who care* !\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 04:06:51","modified":"2005-10-27 04:06:51","fileurl":""},{"id":137994,"heading":"uh, huh","article":""18 SOLID sources and that's the best you can do... "\r\n\r\n!8 solid sources reporting what? Exactly what I pointed out. Conjecture. Observation of anomalies and for the most part EVERY source has reported over and over again that the hijackers were, of course, islamic subhumans.","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 13:47:28","modified":"2005-10-27 13:47:28","fileurl":""},{"id":137996,"heading":"bump bump bump","article":"what ever battery fresca is using it's got to be better than what ever that pink bunny is on. Not going anywhere but still beating the little drum.\r\nbump bump bump\r\ndeeper and deeper into the sand.","author":"too much","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 13:58:40","modified":"2005-10-27 13:58:40","fileurl":""},{"id":138019,"heading":"And again, LOL!","article":"I love the idea that hex and some other haldol nut are compelled to stand up and yell at me (and by extension, the vast majority of people on earth) for accepting the obvious about 9-11 and not adopting the cyber-delusion of dirty Jews and remote controlled aircraft.\r\n\r\nKeep it flowing boys! You can't buy this type of entertainment.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 19:32:27","modified":"2005-10-27 19:32:27","fileurl":""},{"id":138034,"heading":"it's a job","article":"and you can't quit.\r\nwatching you shuffel and squeal about 'dirty jews' ( I thought the Mossad required normal hygene but you should know more about them) to hide the huge holes in the government conspirsacy theory and use this rag as a figleaf. You should wash it. Or get a new one.","author":"this is entertainment","parent_id":137448,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-10-27 22:20:24","modified":"2005-10-27 22:20:24","fileurl":""}]}