\r\n\r\n\r\nre: Marco and nessie (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby Viva La Revolucion \r\n11:36am Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n \r\nMar co , i do agree to an extent with what you are saying.\r\n
\r\nBut what I cant understand is why people get so angry with this guy proffr. He is harmless.....If they dont like what he has to say then they shouldnt bother with a nasty reply to him. With a guy like Proffr if no one replies to any of his posts then he will get bored and leave.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd Nessie , so basically you are saying you want to physically fight Matt because he threatened you? That sounds like a school yard fight between two kids. I can understand why you might have been ofended but taking it serious is just ridiculous.<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nThe media will probably use him to decry *us* (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby One Imaginary Girl \r\n11:59am Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n \r\nWhat worries me is that, should the U.S. media see this, they\r\n
\r\nwill no doubt latch onto proffr as an exemplar of anti-\r\n
\r\nglobalization in general.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nFrom the postings I saw, the guy was egotistical -- his constant threats against both corporate heads *and* activists and independent reporters whose messages he happened not to like displayed a childish need to feel powerful and useful to the movement. While taking direct action against corporations is generally a courageous thing, I suspect proffr's reasons were all wrong and not out of concern for anyone but himself. (I'm not pulling this out of the thin air of pop psychology -- but I've seen so many newswire reports degraded by his unfounded accusations and threats against reporters.)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd, frankly, anyone who sees violence against other people (or the threat of it) as the ideal solution to every problem is not someone I want to be identified with, or with whom I want to co-belong to a movement. Any "revolution" based on this ideal is certain to bring in a new regime just as selfish and violent as our present one. (Prime example -- the presumably well-meaning trotskyists whose violence and autocratism turned the potential of the Soviet Union into a statist wreck.)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnarchists and anti-globalists are portrayed as violent because some of us destroy property. And this moron has just given the government, the media, and the corporations a real figure on which to base their denigration of the movement. Not much we can do about it, I guess...there are nuts and assholes in any given group of people...but, damn, this shite is really discouraging.<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nThe comfort of censorship by anyother name (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby triple anon \r\n12:09pm Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n" He threatened my life, and from a distance, like the\r\n
\r\ncoward he is. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nYeah we've heard this before...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nCan anyone say "over-react" or "grandstanding" ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n"If he'd done it to my face, I'd have put him in traction."\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nHmmmm isn't that the pot calling the keddle black ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAren't actual physical threats (in the context of actual\r\n
\r\npossibilities based on physical location - being near the\r\n
\r\nperson not thousands of miles away) worse than idle-hollow\r\n
\r\nthreats meant as satire ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd shouldn't we therefore take YOUR threats "seriously"\r\n
\r\nas you demanded we do his ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" He is NOT one of us. He's an asshole. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nFunny - I feel that way about (well now I'd be as bad as\r\n
\r\nthe people I've talked about who attempt to POLARIZE\r\n
\r\nother's if I finished this sentence)\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" I'd very much like to see him set free, preferably on\r\n
\r\nthe block where I live, preferably today."\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI, I, I, Me, me, me...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nMaybe this news thread should have been called "the world\r\n
\r\nrevolves around Nessie"\r\n
\r\n \r\n
\r\n \r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" If you let the fact that "they" might be monitoring you \r\n
\r\nparalyze you, then they win. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWith IF being the operative word... And if you arrange so\r\n
\r\nthat them monitoring *doesn't matter* - and therefore feel\r\n
\r\nfree to speak your mind (one example) isn't it that much better ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSee when you look at things in black & white you fall into traps\r\n
\r\nlike this - either do nothing at all to protect your privacy\r\n
\r\nand allow fear to control you or be an outcast where people who\r\n
\r\nrefuse to do anything try to get other's to ignore\/discredit you.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" >>>Most people<<< I'm aware of don't read his stuff after\r\n
\r\nthe second or third post they've encountered. It belongs \r\n
\r\nsomewhere else. >>>Ask anyone<<< who regularly reads indymedia\r\n
\r\norg pages yourself and see what I mean. Anything with the \r\n
\r\nsame writing style, or the same nicknames goes unread. \r\n
\r\n
\r\nThere's 5 or 6 people this happens to, not just proffr. \r\n
\r\nIn some ways I feel sorry >>>for them<<<. It would be much less \r\n
\r\nmasochistic >>>for them<<< to either change their writing style \r\n
\r\nto something >>>people<<< hitting these pages can relate to or \r\n
\r\nunderstand without changing any real content or feeling \r\n
\r\nlike they've sold out or anything... "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWell the popularity card shows it's ugly head in many forms.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSpeaking for other's, framing the "problem" (of my own making)\r\n
\r\nas the victim's fault.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nTelling them to take a hike (in so many words)\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI don't subscribe to this at all.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI see your "best of" as an active attempt to manipulate\r\n
\r\nwhat's news, what's important, what belongs...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI've already noticed clear self-involved BIAS in your\r\n
\r\n"best of's"\r\n
\r\n
\r\nYou never include threads where Matt posts ***except***\r\n
\r\nwhen YOU reply.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nNaughty naughty !\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd FYI the only thread I avoid is your "best of"...\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" Or they could save themselves just as much "masochism" \r\n
\r\nfinding places where their posts would be understood and \r\n
\r\nappreciated. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nTake a hike part two...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nYes commander Marco we shall comply ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" So you can probably see why after literally months of \r\n
\r\nignoring these posts on sight, >>>most people<<< here just \r\n
\r\nassume they either have tourrettes syndrome or are mind \r\n
\r\ncontrol victims of a CIA determined to slow down or alter \r\n
\r\nindymedia org's open democratic publishing model. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nMore popularity - and you wonder why some people claim IMC\r\n
\r\nhas an "elitist" element where people feel REJECTED.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nYour post is dripping with rejection !\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nHave you ever considered that some people feel this\r\n
\r\nway about YOU ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThat these attempts to control-steer-manipulate ARE the\r\n
\r\nCOINTELPRO ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" You want my honest opinion? Proffr, and anyone like \r\n
\r\nproffr was\/is a threat to open publishing. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nA threat - well threats take many forms, some threats go\r\n
\r\naround pretending to know what's best for us - to speak\r\n
\r\nfor other people to lend weight to thier own positions...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nTo me those threats are the most insidious since many people\r\n
\r\nare caught off guard by them (believing the intent is good\r\n
\r\nthey are receptive to this kind of manipulation)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd that's where the worst disruption is committed, since by\r\n
\r\nexcluding new different ways of thinking we shut ourselves\r\n
\r\naway from the divirsity absolutely required for a successful\r\n
\r\nmovement - mother nature has a lesson to teach us on that one...\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI noticed you carefully avoided my comparison of Matt to the\r\n
\r\nBlack Bloc, naturally since it would greatly weaken the fallacy\r\n
\r\nbehind the same old popularity contest game.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nHey I know - let's have Marco be the new editor of the\r\n
\r\nnewswire and we'll never have to see any posts other than\r\n
\r\nhis approved ones !\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nBut wait a minute - he's already attempting to deny us that\r\n
\r\nchoice - with his "best of" NON NEWS posts...\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nPlease Marco do my thinking for me and please-pretty-please\r\n
\r\ntake away my freedom of choice by steering the popularity\r\n
\r\nof the contributers, telling us what "everybody" wants,\r\n
\r\neverybody needs, everybody thinks, everybody does.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAlso make those jerks go away where no one will see them,\r\n
\r\nwhere they will not be a part of this struggle buried in\r\n
\r\nsome obscure usenet world.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI'm afraid of seeing other views and need the comfort of\r\n
\r\nhaving this thinking done for me where I'll be safe never\r\n
\r\nhaving to think about or deal with other points of view\r\n
\r\n(think how dangerous it would be if I actually LEARNED\r\n
\r\nsomething !)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nMarco's IMC...<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nWait until things really get hairy (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby triple anon \r\n1:23pm Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n" What worries me is that, should the U.S. media see this,\r\n
\r\nthey will no doubt latch onto proffr as an exemplar of anti- \r\n
\r\nglobalization in general. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWell obviously they are going to do it anyway... (latch on to\r\n
\r\nsomething\/someone) and from where I'm standing "they" already\r\n
\r\nare.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" From the postings I saw, the guy was egotistical -- his\r\n
\r\nconstant threats against both corporate heads *and* activists\r\n
\r\nand independent reporters whose messages he happened not to like\r\n
\r\ndisplayed a childish need to feel powerful and useful to the\r\n
\r\nmovement. While taking direct action against corporations is\r\n
\r\ngenerally a courageous thing, I suspect proffr's reasons were\r\n
\r\nall wrong and not out of concern for anyone but himself.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n(I'm not pulling this out of the thin air of pop psychology\r\n
\r\n-- but I've seen so many newswire reports degraded by his\r\n
\r\nunfounded accusations and threats against reporters.) "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWell I don't defend his intentions (who can really say\r\n
\r\nwhat they are ?) but I do defend his right to express\r\n
\r\nhimself... (as I do anyone - that universal rights\r\n
\r\nthinggy we supposidly stand for)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAs far as "degraded" goes that's in the eye of the\r\n
\r\nbeholder. I always saw it as comic relief (satire)\r\n
\r\nas amusing (because so many people take themselves\r\n
\r\nand others too seriously and are so uptight)\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" And, frankly, anyone who sees violence against other people\r\n
\r\n(or the threat of it) as the ideal solution to every problem\r\n
\r\nis not someone I want to be identified with, or with whom I\r\n
\r\nwant to co-belong to a movement."\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWell "ideal" and "every" are too black & white for me. And again\r\n
\r\nthis seems like imposing one's own uptightness as conditions on\r\n
\r\nother people which degrades the concept of freedom.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnother way to look at it is that I could say likewise about\r\n
\r\npeople who are too uptight (I don't want to be very close to them)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nHowever I wouldn't go to the extreme of saying who belongs in the\r\n
\r\nmovement for such petty differences in personality (the right of all\r\n
\r\noutweighs my personal feelings about any one person)\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" Any "revolution" based on this ideal is certain to bring in\r\n
\r\na new regime just as selfish and violent as our present one.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThat's a whole lotta' absolutes. (any\/ideal\/certain)\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd as the future unfolds I suspect it will be unlike what\r\n
\r\nhistory has shown us due to new dynamics (like technology)\r\n
\r\nthat has never been seen before (and global warming effects too)\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n"(Prime example -- the presumably well-meaning trotskyists whose\r\n
\r\nviolence and autocratism turned the potential of the Soviet\r\n
\r\nUnion into a statist wreck.)"\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWell they say that those who fail to learn from history are\r\n
\r\ncondemed to repeat it.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI have another saying - those who wallow in history will never\r\n
\r\nescape it. \r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n" Anarchists and anti-globalists are portrayed as violent\r\n
\r\nbecause some of us destroy property. And this moron has just\r\n
\r\ngiven the government, the media, and the corporations a real\r\n
\r\nfigure on which to base their denigration of the movement.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nNot much we can do about it, I guess...there are nuts and\r\n
\r\nassholes in any given group of people...but, damn, this shite\r\n
\r\nis really discouraging. "\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThey are going to do it anyway - it's just a question of\r\n
\r\nwho\/when\/what\/where...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nIf you're this discouraged now what's it going to be like\r\n
\r\nwhen the shit really hits the fan ?\r\n
\r\n
\r\nAnd remember some people like it and find it ENcouraging...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWe are discouraged more by the popularity games, attempts to\r\n
\r\nmake us into activist sheep, the implied (or real ?) elitism\r\n
\r\nthat so often starts as a rot from within, to marginalize us.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nYou see it everywhere - the people who try to tell us what we\r\n
\r\nneed what we are what we stand for who to reject who to ignore\r\n
\r\nwho turn a personal need to control other people into thier\r\n
\r\nversion of "the movement" and thus reject and isolate, divide\r\n
\r\nand weaken.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nMaybe some of you feel the movement is doing fine and doesn't\r\n
\r\nneed more people, stronger people, new people, maybe you feel\r\n
\r\nthis is "your" movement...\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI notice a consistant lack of clarity on just what it is we're\r\n
\r\nstanding for, what the values of the movement are.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI see alot of personal venting about what this person or that\r\n
\r\nperson thinks about this or that other person...\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nI see self-marginalization - repeating the mistakes of the past\r\n
\r\nexpressed in people's attitudes while at the same time blindness\r\n
\r\nto how the future requires a break from the past in thought AND\r\n
\r\naction.\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThe danger of just ending up back where we started lies in these\r\n
\r\ntwo traps in my eyes...<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nDon't Focus On proffr Only (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby ML \r\n2:02pm Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n \r\nEveryone seems to be concentrating on either supporting or dissing proffr in this. Before I change the subject a little, here's my view on proffr. He certainly has the right to express himself, but the way he gone about it on IMC has done nothing but undermine the credibility of the IMCs in ways that are difficult to deal with, in addition to taking the efforts of hard-working IMCistas away from getting out the news by forcing them to devote time to the heat caused by his over-active and poorly-focused imagination.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nTriple Anon, if we should be preparing for the day the shit hits the fan, something with which I definitely agree with you on, we should be sure to focus on knowing when to keep your mouth shut for the good of everyone involved. I personally prefer to do delicate work only with those who are intelligent enough to have at least a modicum of discretion about what they say. Working with the proffr around is like standing next to a lightning rod in a thunderstorm.\r\n
\r\n
\r\nBut I think we concentrate too much on proffr, who made his own choices, for better or worse, for himself. The real news here is the apparent close working relationship betweeen La Raza Defence Comm. and the federal government. It sure seems a lot closer than if La Raza was simply a purported "victim." Seems like they are pretty tight with the feds to have heard about the bust in Australia and then made a self-serving post to IMC that, while inaccurate in the announced time of the bust, appears to been based on inside information. I can't imagine at this point any serious latino\/latina activist wanting to work for an organization that finds it comfortable to work so closely with the federal government. This affair with the proffr shows that their most important priority seems to be working for the feds, rather than their pseudo-commitment to Aztlan.<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nwhat is the FBI Agenda ? (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby Viva La Revolucion \r\n2:45pm Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/font><\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n<\/blockquote><\/blockquote>\r\n \r\nI personally find it intesting that the FBI was involved in Matt taylors "proffr" arrest. He is accused of Vandalism during a protest in Australia. Nothing more. So where does the FBI come in? Thet obviously have no authority and do not have a right to involve themselves in this matter. It is clear that the FBI was interested in arresting him for anything they could. Now would the FBI involve themselves to the degree of finding any reason to arrest him if they didnt have bigger plans. Perhaps they want to use this against the movement or more directly against IMC. I am not to sure , but I am sure there is more going on here....\r\n
\r\nGuess we will have to wait and see.\r\n
\r\nAnd as for La Raza , fuck 'em.........they are in bed with the FBI............They realy made alot of enemies by this whole fiasco......<\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr><\/table>\r\n\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\nBack atcha (english) \r\n<\/b>
\r\nby nessie \r\n3:22pm Sun Jun 3 '01<\/i><\/font><\/font>\r\n<\/td><\/tr>\r\n\r\n | |
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