\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n<\/p>
\r\nAt first the anti-racists counter protesters surrounded SOS-MM and overwhelmed them 10 to 1. After about an hour the police separated the SOS-MM from the counters and kept SOS-MM behind police lines on one corner of the street. By 1:00 pm it was over and the SOS-MM had all been escorted way by the police. The crowd cheered as the last of the SOS-MM left the site. \r\n<\/p>
\r\n A post action wrap up was upbeat and there was a sense of victory that the community had taken a stand against the anti-immigrants and racism. There were no reports of violence or arrests. <\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/html","summary":".","numcomment":17,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2005\/06\/129845.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":129885,"heading":"A","article":"That was a great video!!! You should take credit for it besides just the letter A. It showed the atmosphere of the event, and had a message in it. It represented the protest very well. I just wanted to give a call out, GREAT JOB!!!!","author":"1Planet1People","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-20 21:42:21","modified":"2005-06-20 21:42:21","fileurl":""},{"id":129915,"heading":"Victory for SoS","article":"The fact that we damaged Home Depot's sales for the day and the fact that we now have a lot more footage and evidence of racism, bigotry, communist and socialist\/marxist insurgency from Indy Media makes it a huge score for SoS. Ya notice that we never back down no matter how outnumbered we are? That is because we don't retreat in the face of hatred from drunk communists and America-hating bigots like you. See at the next Home Depot rally.\r\n\r\n","author":"SoS Rules","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-21 05:11:27","modified":"2005-06-21 05:11:27","fileurl":""},{"id":129933,"heading":"Illegal Fun Facts","article":"The truth is out there, SENOR.","author":"Anti-illegal","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-06-21 12:56:57","modified":"2005-08-15 03:13:24","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/illegal_fun_facts.jpggckwtp.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/illegal_fun_facts.jpggckwtp.jpg"}},{"id":129954,"heading":"Indymedia should not get much credit","article":"I've got indymedia running in my blood, but, it wasn't indy that called this counter demo.\r\n\r\nIndy lacks those tools. There are no "forums" or "private messages'. There are no email addresses collected here.\r\n\r\nA loose network of groups decided to come out. A lot of different folks were there. Many of "the usual suspects" and a lot of others too.","author":"johnk","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-21 17:10:43","modified":"2005-06-21 17:10:43","fileurl":""},{"id":129980,"heading":"SoS Rules","article":"A close friend of mine works for the HD where you guys went. Guess what, their sales on that day were higher than normal. It appears that a lot of people drove into HD to see what all the fuss was about, and while they were there, they did their shopping. He told me that HD was not going to try to stop SOS because it has been real good for sales. Keep it up!","author":"HD Supporter","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-21 21:12:48","modified":"2005-06-21 21:12:48","fileurl":""},{"id":130046,"heading":"HD sales","article":"Another whopper of a lie.\r\n\r\nOf course HD will never admit we screw up their sales but it was abundantly clear that cars were not entering the parking lot.\r\n\r\nLiar","author":"Caught Lying Again","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 03:40:05","modified":"2005-06-22 03:40:05","fileurl":""},{"id":130057,"heading":"You guys should be ashamed, but remain clueless","article":"Hey I know! Let's contort what the Minutemen are about- observing and reporting illegal activity along the border- and say that they're anti-immigrants. Just make sure you drop the word "illegal" out of it, because that would fuck everything up.\r\nOh wait, these weren't Minutemen, they were SOS.org- a group commited to the safety, security and welfare of all LEGAL citizens of the State of California. Oh shit, now what do we do. \r\nOOH OOH! I know! Let's label THEM as racists, get everyone in our communities stirred up with the usuall string of lies, and commit to hating them! Again, avoid the use of the word "illegal", that could get us in trouble. We wouldn't want to look like we support illegal activity, or hate on people like we do. We want THEM to look bad, not us.\r\nOh wait, too late. It would seem the truth is trickling out...\r\n","author":"Cassanova","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 06:05:17","modified":"2005-06-22 06:05:17","fileurl":""},{"id":130090,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"...since truth is trickling out, let's see if you can please define "illegal alien' for us?\r\n\r\n...I have asked this question of SOS & MM supporters, but they dodge the issue every friggin' time.\r\n\r\nAlso; if the goals of the SOS or MM are as you stated, how do they measure their success toward these goals?\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 13:57:29","modified":"2005-06-22 13:57:29","fileurl":""},{"id":130121,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"...HELLOOOOO?\r\n\r\nDo any SOSMMer's have the brains and\/or balls to answer these very basic questions?","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 18:13:12","modified":"2005-06-22 18:13:12","fileurl":""},{"id":130132,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"Jeez, I know you SOSMM guys are out there....please help us out....define "illegal immigrant" and state your measureable goals for success.\r\n\r\nThat should be simple enough...any organization who "claim" to be working toward some end should easily be able to define the problem and establish a measureable goal for success.\r\n\r\n...otherwise, what the FUCK are you doin'?","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 18:40:46","modified":"2005-06-22 18:40:46","fileurl":""},{"id":130139,"heading":"Ideas for the future -- SOS=type platform","article":"I know you SOSMM guys are out there....please help us out....define "illegal immigrant" and state your measureable goals for success.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nI speak only for myself, but as I support SOS\/MM, consider my goasl to be at least partly theirs. \r\n
\r\n I define an \u201cillegal immigrant\u201d as a person who entered the Unites States illegally (without permission) whether 20 minutes or 20 years ago. An \u201cundocumented\u201d alien is a visitor who entered legally, but then stayed past his \u201cdue date\u201d to leave, thus becoming illegal. \r\n
\r\nCalifornia Plan (in no particular order)\r\n
\r\nThrow the judge who declared Prop 187 unconstitutional out on his ass. Immediately enact 187 as LAW.\r\n
\r\nEliminate state tuitions of any kind for illegals.\r\n
\r\nForm California Border Police including their own version of a SWAT team.\r\n
\r\nInflict severe fines on any business caught hiring illegal aliens. Inflict severe fines, including a minimum of two years in prison, for any individual(s) aiding and abetting illegals or helping them escape capture (hi Fred!)\r\n
\r\nHire bounty hunters to capture illegals.\r\n
\r\nCease all aid to Mexico (at the federal level) until all illegal alien fugitives who committed felonies in the Unites States are returned for trial.\r\n
\r\nClose the border. Begin deportation. If Mexico takes aggressive action, place land mines along the border as well as the State Guard. \r\n
\r\nCreate a State database of illegal aliens, including facial recognition \u201cprints.\u201d\r\n
\r\nAmerica deserves a secure future, if it fights for it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Jose Gutierrez","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2005-06-22 19:03:39","modified":"2013-11-11 00:34:11","fileurl":""},{"id":130140,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"Should there be a difference, in your mind, in how the law treats an illegal immigrant as opposed to an undocumented immigrant? Please explain your answer.\r\n\r\nDo you feel that undocumented immigrants should be penalized for their undocumented status after it is cleared up?\r\n\r\nDo you feel that people who were brought to this country by no choice of their own when they were infants, and have known no other country but this one, should be treated the same as people who came here "20 minutes ago"?\r\n\r\nAlthough you have made quite a few impractical ("throw judges out", "close the border") and outright ludicrous (SWAT team and bounty hunters) proposals, you still have not stated your goal or method of measuring success. Please clearly state the goal you agree with and the metrics that should be used in measuring success.\r\n\r\nAlso, your statement regarding returning illegal alien criminals to the US is perplexing because 1) I thought you wanted them OUT and have complained about their burden on American taxpayers; and 2) The US and Mexico have an extradition treaty. The only case where Mexico will not extradite is in cases where the death penalty may be applied. Seems to me that there is plenty of room to bargain there, and so no real obstacle as you imply.\r\n\r\nAlso, it would be unconstitutional to form a "California" Border Police, as it is the Federal Government that is mandated by the constitution to control immigration and borders. Are you proposing a constitutional amendment to move this responsibility to each state?\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 19:25:40","modified":"2005-06-22 19:25:40","fileurl":""},{"id":130145,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"Do you support lobbying any governent officials involved in immigration policy in order to understand current and influence future policy? Who have SOS\/MM lobbied?\r\n\r\nDo you know the US Senate and or House Committees dealing with immigration reform? Has SOS\/MM contacted these committees?\r\n\r\nDo you support teaming with potential immigrants on the opposite side of the border to hold teach-ins on how to enter the country legally? If so, what is SOS\/MM doing about this?\r\n\r\nDo you support working with immigrants (illegal or undocumented, by your definition) that are currently in the US in order to assist those who may obtain legal status? If so, what is SOS\/MM doing about this?\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 19:36:19","modified":"2005-06-22 19:36:19","fileurl":""},{"id":130150,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"...Hmmmm....deafening silence.","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 20:09:21","modified":"2005-06-22 20:09:21","fileurl":""},{"id":130157,"heading":"Still in shock","article":"Don't worry KPC, I wouldn't pass up this chance to provide answers in an atmosphere of civility.\r\n\r\nStandby.","author":"JG","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-22 21:11:38","modified":"2005-06-22 21:11:38","fileurl":""},{"id":130185,"heading":"Answering KPCs reasonable questions","article":"Before I begin to answer your questions, I need to add one more to 'my' platform: no longer would babies born in the USA to foreign parents be considered Americans. I can't believe this idiocy even exists. If an American couple has their baby in France, the kid is not French. This bizarre warped policy, which no other country has, causes the 'anchor baby' problem of illegals sneaking over here to have their offspring.<\/B> \r\n
\r\n OneEyedMan asks:<\/B>\r\n\r\nShould there be a difference, in your mind, in how the law treats an \r\n\r\nillegal immigrant as opposed to an undocumented immigrant? Please explain \r\n\r\nyour answer.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nLet me answer that by asking you this: if a thief steals jewelry from a \r\n\r\nneighbor's house, does it matter if he broke in or was invited over earlier? \r\n\r\nEither way, a crime has been committed and the guilty must pay.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nDo you feel that undocumented immigrants should be penalized for their \r\n\r\nundocumented status after it is cleared up?<\/I>\r\n
\r\nDepends on the situation. If a foreign owner of an expired visa is late \r\n\r\nby one day and makes a concerted effort to report it, s\/he should certainly \r\n\r\nbe penalized less than someone who came here on a visa to live illegally \r\n\r\nuntil caught.<\/B> \r\n
\r\nDo you feel that people who were brought to this country by no choice of \r\n\r\ntheir own when they were infants, and have known no other country but this \r\n\r\none, should be treated the same as people who came here "20 minutes ago"?\r\n\r\n<\/I>\r\n
\r\n An excellent question. I'm not ashamed to say I don't have a specific \r\n\r\nsolution for this challenge. If we continue on the disastrous course we \r\n\r\nhave set now, illegals will continue to use their children as anchors. \r\n\r\nAlso, I don't know the specific demographics e.g. how many children of \r\n\r\nillegals are here and of college age, etc. Once the major immigration \r\n\r\nproblems are solved, we could probably work out something whereby Americans \r\n\r\nsponsor some of these kids who get good grades and have grown up obeying the \r\n\r\nlaws.<\/B> \r\n
\r\nAlthough you have made quite a few impractical ("throw judges out", \r\n\r\n"close the border") and outright ludicrous (SWAT team and bounty hunters) \r\n\r\nproposals, you still have not stated your goal or method of measuring \r\n\r\nsuccess. Please clearly state the goal you agree with and the metrics that \r\n\r\nshould be used in measuring success.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nThe judge or judges responsible for denying the will of the people via \r\n\r\nProp 187 are petty tyrants and SHOULD be thrown out\/forced to resign, \r\n\r\nwhatever it takes. These activist judges, which go all the way to the \r\n\r\nSupreme Court have caused a lot of damage, both to common sense and respect \r\n\r\nfor the law. We Americans DO have a right to redress of greivances, and the \r\n\r\nsacred right to remove from power a government we find doesn't suit our \r\n\r\nneeds or live to our ideals.\r\n
\r\nI think if we reduced the number of illegals living in the USA from 10 or 11 \r\n\r\nmillion to around 1.5 to 2 million tops at any given time, it would mean we \r\n\r\nhave the problem under "some" control. Continual punishment for businesses \r\n\r\nthat hire illegals and the enforced prevention of illegals receiving any \r\n\r\ncity, state or federal aid would also probably create enough disincentive \r\n\r\nfor 90% of illegals to want to come here, and for Mexico to cease \r\n\r\nencouraging they try. \r\n
\r\nUsing bounty hunters isn't really that radical, since in the beginning of \r\n\r\nthe phaseout, most people already know where the illegals hide and work. A \r\n\r\nBordr Patrol SWAt team idea is realistic...in fact, it probably won't be \r\n\r\nenough. Remember, the drug cartels are behind a lot of human smuggling; \r\n\r\nthey have the best weaponry and lots of "soldiers" with nothing to lose. \r\n\r\nHell, there's a good chance the entire Mexican Army is on the dole of a few \r\n\r\nof Mexico's mightiest drug lords as well.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nAlso, your statement regarding returning illegal alien criminals to the \r\n\r\nUS is perplexing because 1) I thought you wanted them OUT and have \r\n\r\ncomplained about their burden on American taxpayers; and 2) The US and \r\n\r\nMexico have an extradition treaty. The only case where Mexico will not \r\n\r\nextradite is in cases where the death penalty may be applied. Seems to me \r\n\r\nthat there is plenty of room to bargain there, and so no real obstacle as \r\n\r\nyou imply.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nExecuting scum who have killed police, be they Mexican or American, is \r\n\r\nmoney well spent. An illegal who commits especially heinous crimes should \r\n\r\nbe removed fro the gene pool as quickly as possible. The present Mexico\/US \r\n\r\ntreaty is useless for the very reasons you describe. Not only is Mexico \r\n\r\nfoolishly against the death penalty, they also consider life in prison as \r\n\r\n"too harsh." How must the average Mexican view the worth of himself, his \r\n\r\nloved ones and his government if cop killers and child rapists are \r\n\r\nconstantly unleashed again and again? One more example of liberalism's \r\n\r\ninsanity. But on this one, the problem is with America's continual \r\n\r\ntoleration of Mexico's flaunting this insanity in our faces. Down with \r\n\r\nVicente Bush!<\/B> \r\n
\r\nAlso, it would be unconstitutional to form a "California" Border Police, \r\n\r\nas it is the Federal Government that is mandated by the constitution to \r\n\r\ncontrol immigration and borders. Are you proposing a constitutional \r\n\r\namendment to move this responsibility to each state?<\/I>\r\n
\r\nI'm not sure how it could be done on paper, but a State Border Police for \r\n\r\nCalifornia is badly needed, certainly more so here than in Alaska or Ohio! \r\n\r\nAs the feds have failed to uphold the Constitution and protect the border, \r\n\r\nmaybe it's time a few states took back some of their power...\r\n
\r\nThe feds have long history of abusing their power. During Reagan's era, it \r\n\r\nwas technically each state's "choice" whether or not to raise the drinking \r\n\r\nage to 21...except the feds, in violation of the law, threatened to withold \r\n\r\nfederal highway funds of any state who did not up the drinking age. This \r\n\r\ngross abuse of power "for the public good" infuriates those of us who know \r\n\r\nwhat absolute power does to any person or government.\r\n
\r\nI don't expect to be agreed with on every point, especially by similar-\r\n\r\nminded Minutemen and SOS, but I do hope this post has demonstrated that, \r\n\r\ndespite the howlings of a few, those in favor of curtailing illegal \r\n\r\nimmigration are not nazis or White Supremacists. Yes, those two groups and \r\n\r\nothers have tried to latch on to the SOS\/Minuteman movement, but I think \r\n\r\nboth SOS and MM have done a good job distancing themselves from these \r\n\r\nhurtful clowns. I certainly don't think all liberals are anarcho-communists.\r\n
\r\nThanks for the offer of a reasoned argument.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nJG\r\n\r\n\r\nAuthor: Jose Gutierrez\r\nLink:\r\nPosted: Tuesday June 21, 2005 07:03 AM\r\n[ignore Jose Gutierrez]\r\n[read more Jose Gutierrez]\r\n\r\nBefore I begin to answer your questions, I need to add one more to 'my' \r\n\r\nplatform: no longer would babies born in the USA to foreign parents be \r\n\r\nconsidered Americans. I can't believe this idiocy even exists. If an \r\n\r\nAmerican couple has their baby in France, the kid is not French. This \r\n\r\nbizarre warped policy, which no other country has, causes the 'anchor baby' \r\n\r\nproblem of illegals sneaking over here to have their offspring.<\/B> \r\n
\r\n \r\n\r\nOneEyedMan asks:\r\n\r\nShould there be a difference, in your mind, in how the law treats an \r\n\r\nillegal immigrant as opposed to an undocumented immigrant? Please explain \r\n\r\nyour answer.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nLet me answer that by asking you this: if a thief steals jewelry from a \r\n\r\nneighbor's house, does it matter if he broke in or was invited over earlier? \r\n\r\nEither way, a crime has been committed and the guilty must pay.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nDo you feel that undocumented immigrants should be penalized for their \r\n\r\nundocumented status after it is cleared up?<\/I>\r\n
\r\nDepends on the situation. If a foreign owner of an expired visa is late by \r\n\r\none day and makes a concerted effort to report it, s\/he should certainly be \r\n\r\npenalized less than someone who came here on a visa to live illegally until \r\n\r\ncaught.<\/B> \r\n
\r\nDo you feel that people who were brought to this country by no choice of \r\n\r\ntheir own when they were infants, and have known no other country but this \r\n\r\none, should be treated the same as people who came here "20 minutes ago"?\r\n\r\n<\/I>\r\n
\r\n An excellent question. I'm not ashamed to say I don't have a specific \r\n\r\nsolution for this challenge. If we continue on the disastrous course we \r\n\r\nhave set now, illegals will continue to use their children as anchors. \r\n\r\nAlso, I don't know the specific demographics e.g. how many children of \r\n\r\nillegals are here and of college age, etc. Once the major immigration \r\n\r\nproblems are solved, we could probably work out something whereby Americans \r\n\r\nsponsor some of these kids who get good grades and have grown up obeying the \r\n\r\nlaws.<\/B> \r\n
\r\nAlthough you have made quite a few impractical ("throw judges out", \r\n\r\n"close the border") and outright ludicrous (SWAT team and bounty hunters) \r\n\r\nproposals, you still have not stated your goal or method of measuring \r\n\r\nsuccess. Please clearly state the goal you agree with and the metrics that \r\n\r\nshould be used in measuring success.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nThe judge or judges responsible for denying the will of the people via \r\n\r\nProp 187 are petty tyrants and SHOULD be thrown out\/forced to resign, \r\n\r\nwhatever it takes. These activist judges, which go all the way to the \r\n\r\nSupreme Court have caused a lot of damage, both to common sense and respect \r\n\r\nfor the law. We Americans DO have a right to redress of greivances, and the \r\n\r\nsacred right to remove from power a government we find doesn't suit our \r\n\r\nneeds or live to our ideals.\r\n
\r\nI think if we reduced the number of illegals living in the USA from 10 or 11 \r\n\r\nmillion to around 1.5 to 2 million tops at any given time, it would mean we \r\n\r\nhave the problem under "some" control. Continual punishment for businesses \r\n\r\nthat hire illegals and the enforced prevention of illegals receiving any \r\n\r\ncity, state or federal aid would also probably create enough disincentive \r\n\r\nfor 90% of illegals to want to come here, and for Mexico to cease \r\n\r\nencouraging they try for America. \r\n
\r\nUsing bounty hunters isn't really that radical, since in the beginning of \r\n\r\nthe phaseout, most people already know where the illegals hide and work. A \r\n\r\nBordr Patrol SWAt team idea is realistic...in fact, it probably won't be \r\n\r\nenough. Remember, the drug cartels are behind a lot of human smuggling; \r\n\r\nthey have the best weaponry and lots of "soldiers" with nothing to lose. \r\n\r\nHell, there's a good chance the entire Mexican Army is on the dole of a few \r\n\r\nof Mexico's mightiest drug lords as well.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nAlso, your statement regarding returning illegal alien criminals to the \r\n\r\nUS is perplexing because 1) I thought you wanted them OUT and have \r\n\r\ncomplained about their burden on American taxpayers; and 2) The US and \r\n\r\nMexico have an extradition treaty. The only case where Mexico will not \r\n\r\nextradite is in cases where the death penalty may be applied. Seems to me \r\n\r\nthat there is plenty of room to bargain there, and so no real obstacle as \r\n\r\nyou imply.<\/I>\r\n
\r\nExecuting scum who have killed police, be they Mexican or American, is \r\n\r\nmoney well spent. An illegal who commits especially heinous crimes should \r\n\r\nbe removed fro the gene pool as quickly as possible. The present Mexico\/US \r\n\r\ntreaty is useless for the very reasons you describe. Not only is Mexico \r\n\r\nfoolishly against the death penalty, they also consider life in prison as \r\n\r\n"too harsh." How must the average Mexican view the worth of himself, his \r\n\r\nloved ones and his government if cop killers and child rapists are \r\n\r\nconstantly unleashed again and again? One more example of liberalism's \r\n\r\ninsanity. But on this one, the problem is with America's continual \r\n\r\ntoleration of Mexico's flaunting this insanity in our faces. Down with \r\n\r\nVicente Bush!<\/B> \r\n
\r\nAlso, it would be unconstitutional to form a "California" Border Police, \r\n\r\nas it is the Federal Government that is mandated by the constitution to \r\n\r\ncontrol immigration and borders. Are you proposing a constitutional \r\n\r\namendment to move this responsibility to each state?<\/I>\r\n
\r\nI'm not sure how it could be done on paper, but a State Border Police for \r\n\r\nCalifornia is badly needed, certainly more so here than in Alaska or Ohio! \r\n\r\nAs the feds have failed to uphold the Constitution and protect the border, \r\n\r\nmaybe it's time a few states took back some of their power...\r\n
\r\nThe feds have long history of abusing their power. During Reagan's era, it \r\n\r\nwas technically each state's "choice" whether or not to raise the drinking \r\n\r\nage to 21...except the feds, in violation of the law, threatened to withold \r\n\r\nfederal highway funds of any state who did not up the drinking age. This \r\n\r\ngross abuse of power "for the public good" infuriates those of us who know \r\n\r\nwhat absolute power does to any person or government.<\/B>\r\n
\r\nI don't expect to be agreed with on every point, especially by similar-\r\n\r\nminded Minutemen and SOS, but I do hope this post has demonstrated that, \r\n\r\ndespite the howlings of a few, those in favor of curtailing illegal \r\n\r\nimmigration are not nazis or White Supremacists. Yes, those two groups and \r\n\r\nothers have tried to latch on to the SOS\/Minuteman movement, but I think \r\n\r\nboth SOS and MM have done a good job distancing themselves from these \r\n\r\nhurtful clowns. I certainly don't think all liberals are anarcho-communists.\r\n
\r\nThanks for the offer of a reasoned argument.\r\n
\r\nJG<\/B>\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Jose Gutierrez","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2005-06-23 02:52:17","modified":"2005-06-23 02:52:17","fileurl":""},{"id":130210,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"A few points:\r\n\r\nIn answer to the question whether illegal and undocumented immigrants should be treated differently under the law, you said;\r\n\r\nJG: "Either way, a crime has been committed and the guilty must pay."\r\n\r\nBut in the very next sentence regarding visa violation, you contradict yourself;\r\n\r\nJG: "Depends on the situation."\r\n\r\nThe law is either absolute or it is not.\r\n\r\nRegarding what you referred to as the "bizzare warped policy", (it is not "policy", it is law, part of the constitution) of those being born in the US being automatically citizens: If being born in the US does not make you a citizen, what does? Your lineage? If the constitution was ammended as you wish, this would open the door for huge abuses, and the federal government could prevent entire nationalities, or races, from becoming citizens. I feel this stance is wholy irrational.\r\n\r\nRegarding throwing out judges whose decsions you do not agree with: Judges are appointed, not elected, and can only be impeached for gross negligence or violations of the law. If judges could be "thrown out' because someone disagreed with their decision, there would BE no judges....you can't possibly please everyone. I feel this stance is unrealistic and impractical. Hell, there are PLENTY of judicial decisions I do not agree with, but I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. \r\n\r\nRegarding you proposal to come down hard on business that hire undocumented workers: I agree whole heartedly...however, I do not agree that this would prevent a significant number of people from coming here illegally. People who are in desperate circumstances come here with the HOPE that they may find a better life for themselves and their families...there are no guarantees. That hope and their continuing dire circumstances would sustain a the exodus.\r\n\r\nRegarding SWAT teams, state police or bounty hunters: even if you COULD do this, and presently you cannot due to the constitutional authority of the Federal gov't, it would be impractical. Who would pay for this? Huge resouces would have to be brought to bear...I think in the end with limited success other than how it would play politically with certain constituencies. Remember, your goal is an 80% reduction in undocumented immigrants residing in the US, not to please some group by political grandstanding.\r\n\r\nRegarding Mexico's policy of refusing to extradite prisoners for the death penalty: Regardless of how you feel about Mexico's policy, isn't it just as arrogant for Americans to expect them to change their policy as it is for Mexicans to expect the US to change ours? Think about it. If we REALLY wanted these criminals to face US justice, we would deal realistically with the situation.\r\n\r\nI think that more should be done by the SOS\/MM to address the problem...my impression is that they are not interested beyond certain grandstanding and vilifying activities, for instance, as posted before:\r\n\r\nDo you support lobbying any governent officials involved in immigration policy in order to understand current and influence future policy? Who have SOS\/MM lobbied? \r\n\r\nDo you know the US Senate and or House Committees dealing with immigration reform? Has SOS\/MM contacted these committees? \r\n\r\nDo you support teaming with potential immigrants on the opposite side of the border to hold teach-ins on how to enter the country legally? If so, what is SOS\/MM doing about this? \r\n\r\nDo you support working with immigrants (illegal or undocumented, by your definition) that are currently in the US in order to assist those who may obtain legal status? If so, what is SOS\/MM doing about this? \r\n\r\n\r\nThanks for the thoughtful response...obviously we agree on the ends, it's the means that we should work to come together on as Americans.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":129845,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-23 14:09:21","modified":"2005-06-23 14:09:21","fileurl":""}]}