{"article":{"id":128101,"heading":"A Reply to the SOS ***********","author":"Chicomozteca","created":"2005-06-04 03:15:56","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:28","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:33:28","article":"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC \"-\/\/W3C\/\/DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional\/\/EN\" \"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/TR\/REC-html40\/loose.dtd\">\n<html><body><p>&ldquo;The man from Europe is still a foreigner and an alien. And he still hates the man who questioned his path across the continent. <br>  <br>     \tBut in the Indian, the spirit of the land is still vested; it will be until other men are able to divine and meet its rhythm. Men must be born and reborn to belong. Their bodies must be formed of the dust of their forefather&rsquo;s bones.\" <br>  <br>                                            ~Luther Standing Bear (Lakota) <br><br>  <br>  <br> A Reply to the SOS *************** <br><br> It is time for the white man to wake up from his illusions. He imagines that he has &ldquo;conquered&rdquo; the native peoples of this land, North American Indian and Mexican Indian alike. <br><br> He is deluded. <br><br> He thinks the land belongs to him, and that we plan to &ldquo;reconquer&rdquo; it. <br><br> His mind is upside down. <br><br> The Earth, the land, does not belong to us. <br><br> We belong to the land. <br><br> It is a relationship that cannot, in the end, be disrupted, although our roles as caretakers of the land can and have been deeply harmed. <br><br> The land does not belong to the white man, and he does not as a rule, belong to or with the land.  <br><br> He is a restless and violent stranger, tossing in the bed of his &ldquo;power,&rdquo; ever uncertain of his relationship to his relations and to himself, always tormented with the knowledge that his &ldquo;conquest&rdquo; is illegitimate. He is fearful. The only way he can rationalize his vicious history to himself  is by imagining himself &ldquo;superior,&rdquo; while in reality he feels himself uprooted and, for that very reason, out of balance and &ldquo;inferior,&rdquo; &ndash; alone and afraid.  <br>  <br> He is disconnected. <br><br> The white man claims our children, the children of the Mexica people, are &ldquo;anchor babies,&rdquo; and that we use our own children to give us - as &ldquo;illegal&rdquo; &ldquo;aliens&rdquo; - a legal pretext to be here. <br><br> In some perverse way, he is right, but for the wrong reasons.  <br><br> We are anchored here.  <br><br> We are anchored here by our ancestors, by our children, and by our closeness to the land over untold generations.  <br><br> What he describes as &ldquo;anchoring:  is natural law, a law he considers a perversion and a manipulation. His mind is upside down. <br><br> We have been here forever &ndash; or, as your anthropologists would have it &ndash; for 30,000 years or more. <br><br> The recent arrival -  white man -  is an alien, not by law, not by nature, but by condition. His primary relationship to this land has been to destroy it. Even his concept of &ldquo;illegality&rdquo; is alien to this land and its nature. It is perverse, inside \/ out. <br><br> He talks of a &ldquo;great American culture&rdquo; that is disappearing, being &ldquo;replaced by other cultures that are inferior and contradictory to everything this country was built upon.&rdquo; <br><br> But the truth is that it is natural law that is bringing his culture to an end.  <br><br> Its coming death is the fruit of his own labors, of the horrors he has committed &ndash; Auschwitz, Hiroshima, and the murder of over 100 million of our ancestors in the &ldquo;conquest.&rdquo;  This is what stares back at him from the mirror and makes him fear the end that he has wrought. <br><br> He has built a world on the rape of his own mother, the Earth, and now his mines and oil wells are running dry. His economy and way of life are impossible to sustain.  <br><br> It has nothing to do with us. His civilization is collapsing under the weight of its own madness. It is very likely that millions, even billions of people worldwide will die in the transition, the collapse of the wrongful and unjust world he has created. <br><br> The white man says he and his fellows must respond as his ancestors responded. <br><br> His fathers &ldquo;responded&rdquo; with mass murder. They took control of their mother the Earth through mass murder, and now, the son wants to defend the rape with more mass murder. He cannot look himself in the heart or in the eye. <br><br> The tree of &ldquo;liberty&rdquo; he wants to water was said by his fathers to be fed with blood.  <br><br> He is hungry for blood.  <br><br> He is boiling with madness and a consuming fear. He is tired of feeling like a foreigner in &ldquo;his own country&rdquo; but that is what he remains, in truth, a foreigner with no feeling for the Earth, and with a hatred for the cultures, the Peoples, it birthed.  <br><br> The white man thinks he is instilling fear in us, and that we are not used to being &ldquo;challenged.&rdquo; He has remained blind to the unending resistance of our peoples for the last five hundred years, imagining it as &ldquo;savage&rdquo; recalcitrance, an animalistic resentment of our &ldquo;superiors.&rdquo; Not a decade has passed in 500 years in which we have not arisen in arms against him, and still he thinks we fear him. <br><br> He imagines that his aggression is &ldquo;a new paradigm&rdquo; with which we are unfamiliar, and that his arrogance, like that of Custer, is unknown to us. Custer&hellip; whose ambition made him unable to retreat&hellip; <br><br> He imagines that everything has just been invented, new, with him.  <br><br> He has no memory. <br><br> If Custer could return from the grave, he, too, might say his opponents relied on &ldquo;intimidation and the threat of violence in order to achieve victory&rdquo; when he invaded their quiet villages. <br><br> Like Custer he invades us, and his declaration of war is a declaration of his intent to finalize the American genocide, to tear the native nations, Northern and Southern, apart - casting us again into third and fourth world &ldquo;reservations,&rdquo; apart from the clean, &ldquo;superior&rdquo; white race and its culture. <br><br> He never learns. <br>  <br> A Lakota man, Good Fox, said this: &ldquo;I was told that after the battle two Cheyenne women came across Custer's body. They knew him because he had attacked their peaceful village on the Washita.  These women said \"You smoked the peace pipe with us. Our chiefs told you that you would be killed if you ever made war on us again. But you would not listen. This will make you hear better. <br>  <br> &ldquo;The women each took an awl from their beaded cases and stuck them deep into Custer's ears.&rdquo; <br>  <br> And now he says, he has a border to defend, that he must defend the laws of the white nation &ndash; laws he wrote to justify and &ldquo;legalize&rdquo; his own bloodthirstiness and theft. <br>  <br> But the &ldquo;border&rdquo; he would defend is a scar on the soul of our mother, the Earth. And he cannot hear her crying. <br>  <br> He would drive a stake through her heart, claiming her as &ldquo;American land. Today. Tomorrow. Forever.&rdquo; <br><br> But his flags and the swastikas of his allies can never bring him peace. Only listening can bring him peace. But like the ghost of Custer, he no longer has ears. <br><br> He has declared a war he cannot win, one that can end only in defeat or prison. <br><br> Perhaps his people, maybe his women, those with sense, who can speak to him in his own language, can reach him, can warn him, before it is too late. <br><br>  <br>  <br> <\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","summary":"A Chican@ \/ Indigenist reply to the threats of impending &quot;civil war&quot; by  the Euro-racist organization &quot;Save Our State.&quot;","numcomment":68,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/2005\/06\/eagle_knight.jpg","filesize":"4.1 kibibytes","article_url":"\/news\/2005\/06\/128101.php","image":{"original":"\/uploads\/2005\/06\/eagle_knight.jpg","small":"\/uploads\/2005\/06\/eagle_knight.jpgthumb.jpg"}},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":128132,"heading":"Mexican reservations next","article":"How can you \u201creconquer\u201d something, if it wasn't already conquered in the 1st place? lol, moron.\r\nSoon there'll be Mexican reservations ;)","author":"American","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 15:54:02","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:28","fileurl":""},{"id":128133,"heading":"Couldn't have said it better","article":"Many of us white people can speak their language, but it is their reasoning we cannot understand.  He will not listen to reason, and he will not understand his relationship to our mother earth.  I am sorry for my brothers, as they have murdered too many, and desecrated too much.  I am sorry for their flawed logic, immoral actions, and disgusting memory.  The only things I can do are to stand with you, and support your fight.  The memory of Black Elk burns in my head, as it was some of my relatives that deceived him and his people, and helped conquer the sacred black hills of Dakota (before they desecrated it with the white men\u2019s faces).  I only hope one day we can ride ourselves of the evil mentality of these close-minded racist people, and truly live in peace with our fellow men and women, and the earth we care for.\r\n\r\nIn Solidarity,\r\n1Planet, 1People\r\n","author":"1planet1people","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 16:00:45","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:28","fileurl":""},{"id":128139,"heading":"Damn right!","article":"Yep!  What he said.\r\n","author":"Fredric L. Rice","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 16:35:35","modified":"2005-06-04 16:35:35","fileurl":""},{"id":128145,"heading":"lousy work","article":"This essay is, at best, poor undergraduate work. The argument is trite. The rationale is romantic, yet devoid of any point. Fact: Mexico was defeated in 1848, and its territory ceded to the US. That is the end of the story. If you wish to romanticize the past, perhaps you should become a novelist. Then you can write all the fiction you want. ","author":"Dave","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 17:12:35","modified":"2005-06-04 17:12:35","fileurl":""},{"id":128153,"heading":"please delete racist Chicomozteca post, johnk.","article":"Where art thou, johnk?\r\n\r\nYou're not going to let this racist rant against the White Race stand, are you?\r\n\r\nDo you think the overwrought flowery language safely hides the treasonous message?  \r\n\r\nThat this con artist who owes his life, liberty and pursuit of happiness to America should be allowed to spout riot-inciting remarks?\r\n\r\nI smell a hate crime.  let's see what you do about it, O protector of peace\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Say NO to hate crimes","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 17:56:57","modified":"2005-06-04 17:56:57","fileurl":""},{"id":128154,"heading":"The Aztec Example","article":"Poor misguided soul.\r\n\r\nI know that the evil white man is such an easy target.  It is sad that you hate him so...for you are only hating yourself.\r\n\r\nYou are most likely 'poisoned' with the blood of the white man.  Self hate is not something you should cherish.\r\n\r\nThe irony is that so many of you idolize Aztec lore...a people who savagely murdered and enslaved neighboring tribes.  A people who engaged in cannabalism.\r\n\r\nIn fact...the white man was seen by many in that region as a liberator.  Imagine that. Those poor dumb bastards were actually happy to be freed from the shackles of slavery by 'ol' blue eyes'.","author":"Voice of Reason II","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 18:04:06","modified":"2005-06-04 18:04:06","fileurl":""},{"id":128155,"heading":"dave","article":"Dave,\r\n\r\nYou completely missed the point, that is your (and your group\u2019s problem), you are unable to consider any history beyond Europe\u2019s arrival here.  Prior to the US, prior to Mexico, prior to Spain, this was a free land.  If you learned some history (before Columbus) you may understand.  Oh, and by the way, Custard wasn't murdering Mexicans.\r\n\r\nAlso, as an undergraduate critique of this argument, I would give you an F.  Before you make general statements about it, why don\u2019t you point to the actual areas that you are critiquing, and then use facts to back up your argument.  Is it not true that Native American philosophy says that we can not own land because we one can only be a caretaker of it?  Is the statement, \u201cWe have been here forever \u2013 or, as your anthropologists would have it \u2013 for 30,000 years or more,\u201d not true?  Is it not true that, \u201cNot a decade has passed in 500 years in which we have not arisen in arms against him, and still he thinks we fear him.\u201d  There seems to be many factual claims here.  The argument indeed seems valid (why don\u2019t you create a truth table to evaluate it).  And, as far as I can see, the premises seem true, which infers that it is sound.  There is some language that is emotionally loaded, but when placed next to correct factual statements, this is tolerable.\r\n\r\nSee, now that is a better critique, and one that is required before such ignorant and unfounded charges.  I guess they must not teach that in those accounting classes over in the business schools.  Personally, I would have given this student an A, since it is well representative of Native American philosophy, factually founded in reality, and inspiring.  Maybe you, Dave, should take a few more classes as those finance ones may help you increase the value of your stock portfolio, they don\u2019t help your overall appearance of intelligence.  (Yes, I know, there is a hint of Ad Hominem here, oh well).\r\n\r\n","author":"1Planet1People","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 18:06:26","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:28","fileurl":""},{"id":128156,"heading":"Huh? Free land?","article":"Are you suggesting that the tribes in the Americas did not fight amongst themselves?\r\n\r\nAlso...it is believed that the Mohawk practiced cannabalism as well.\r\n\r\nThis romanticized notion that all natives were sitting around smoking peace pipes and living in harmony is bunk.  ","author":"Voice of Reason II","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 18:21:53","modified":"2005-06-04 18:21:53","fileurl":""},{"id":128157,"heading":"response","article":"Well lets see.  Do you consider the US a free country?  Do we fight other countries?  You should be able to determine this based on your own beliefs.","author":"1Planet1People","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 18:24:07","modified":"2005-06-04 18:24:07","fileurl":""},{"id":128158,"heading":"Your Point","article":"I don't know if it is true, but okay\r\n\r\nMohawk practiced Cannibalism, and Americans suck the Breast Milk of Animals.  What\u2019s your point? ","author":"1Planet1People","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 18:26:57","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:28","fileurl":""},{"id":128165,"heading":"a question . . .","article":"Why is it, when the SOS\/CCIR\/MMP people lose a debate, they end with racist name-calling?  \r\n\r\nNow, they'll tell me they're not racist.  Watch.","author":"The M\u00f3rr\u00edgan","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-04 20:49:38","modified":"2026-10-25 17:02:53","fileurl":""},{"id":128183,"heading":"The European Example","article":"The European Example:\r\n\r\nIt's pitiful so many of you adore the European example. \r\n\r\nAt the time your people invaded our land, you had just  burned some Eleven Million of your own mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces and cousins at the stake in the series of mass muders and hate crimes you call the &quot;Inquisition.&quot;\r\n\r\nYour religion has as its central ritual a symbolic re-enactment of cannibalism - you call it the Eucharist of Communion - you eat your god in the form of human flesh.\r\n\r\nWhile killing over One Hundred Milllion of our ancestors throughout this hemisphere, Europeans enslaved millions of Africans - some 40 million died in the Middle Passage - then set their sites on the Phillipines, where they killed millions more, and Africa, where they killed another 50 million in the process of _that_ conquest - then came the Nazis, who at best were cheap imitations of the real item, killing only 20 million or so, and Nagasaki and Hiroshima, then the 2 million VietNamese dead etc, etc.\r\n\r\nEuorpean culture is the most &quot;savage&quot; in the history of the world.\r\n\r\nIt continues in just that vein.\r\n\r\nBut the MinutemenSOS want us to believe they are &quot;superior.&quot;\r\n\r\nAnd yes, anyone who thought they were being &quot;freed&quot; by the European is pathetic and dumb, be they Native \/ Mexican, African, Asian or in the most recent bloodthirsty example, the Iraqis.\r\n\r\nQue Viva Ixachilan\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nThe Aztec Example\r\n\r\nPoor misguided soul.\r\n\r\nI know that the evil white man is such an easy target. It is sad that you hate him so...for you are only hating yourself.\r\n\r\nYou are most likely 'poisoned' with the blood of the white man. Self hate is not something you should cherish.\r\n\r\nThe irony is that so many of you idolize Aztec lore...a people who savagely murdered and enslaved neighboring tribes. A people who engaged in cannabalism.\r\n\r\nIn fact...the white man was seen by many in that region as a liberator. Imagine that. Those poor dumb bastards were actually happy to be freed from the shackles of slavery by 'ol' blue eyes'.","author":"Que Viva Ixachilan","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 05:17:20","modified":"2005-06-05 05:17:20","fileurl":""},{"id":128184,"heading":"Re: \r\nRe: &quot;Huh? Free land?&quot;","article":"What we did among ourselves is OUR business. NOT yours.\r\n\r\nNo one said we were peaceful. The article made a pointed reference to Custer's defeat and suggested that  you might learn something from that, &quot;unthinkable as it may seem to you in your arrogance.\r\n\r\n\r\n_________________\r\n\r\nHuh? Free land?\r\n\r\nAre you suggesting that the tribes in the Americas did not fight amongst themselves?\r\n\r\nAlso...it is believed that the Mohawk practiced cannabalism as well.\r\n\r\nThis romanticized notion that all natives were sitting around smoking peace pipes and living in harmony is bunk. ","author":"Que Viva Ixachilan","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 05:21:57","modified":"2005-06-05 05:21:57","fileurl":""},{"id":128185,"heading":"Re: Que Viva Ixachilan","article":"Not a criticism.  Didn't you notice, we ran their logic to the ground and they went away?  No reason to defend, it was too easy, we showed their errors and they left.  We already won.  Makes me feel bad how easy that was...","author":"1planet1people","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 05:49:47","modified":"2005-06-05 05:49:47","fileurl":""},{"id":128189,"heading":"fresca","article":"Let's also harken back to the oft-overlooked fact that the indians didn't even have the fucking WHEEL!\r\n\r\nThey had, however, mastered the art of slaughtering one another without it.","author":"The Wheel","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 12:01:38","modified":"2005-06-05 12:01:38","fileurl":""},{"id":128197,"heading":"SOS is the violent one now","article":"so who loves violence now?\r\n\r\n    \r\n1inchgroup Posted: Jun 3 2005, 04:06 PM   \r\n\r\n\r\nPatriot\r\n\r\n\r\nGroup: Members\r\nPosts: 915\r\nMember No.: 31\r\nJoined: 3-December 04\r\nWas looking more at one of the new Colt Defenders. Maybe a new 40. Glock's mag stacks are too fat for the big caliber pistol ammo. Can't get a good grip on a staggered magazine like those, the damn grip's too fat.\r\n\r\nUsed to the 1911 style pistols, old habits die hard.\r\n\r\n----------------------\r\n\r\n \r\n","author":"sosisracist","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 14:36:10","modified":"2005-06-05 14:36:10","fileurl":""},{"id":128206,"heading":"Whitey ROCKS","article":"The European Example: \r\n\r\nIt's pitiful so many of you adore the European example. \r\n\r\n>>>>  It's more pitiful you would try to promote the losing savages of Mexico as being civlized as you type in comfort, surrounded by material goods in the land that the White Man built.\r\n\r\nAt the time your people invaded our land, you had just burned some Eleven Million of your own mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces and cousins at the stake in the series of mass muders and hate crimes you call the &quot;Inquisition.&quot; \r\n\r\n>>>  Big deal.  Your 'ancestors' were busy cutting the hearts out of live victims to appease your 'gods.'\r\n\r\nYour religion has as its central ritual a symbolic re-enactment of cannibalism - you call it the Eucharist of Communion - you eat your god in the form of human flesh. \r\n\r\n>>>>  The key here is 'symbolic.'  No one actually eats human flesh.\r\n\r\nWhile killing over One Hundred Milllion of our ancestors throughout this hemisphere, Europeans enslaved millions of Africans - some 40 million died in the Middle Passage - then set their sites on the Phillipines, where they killed millions more, and Africa, where they killed another 50 million in the process of _that_ conquest - then came the Nazis, who at best were cheap imitations of the real item, killing only 20 million or so, and Nagasaki and Hiroshima, then the 2 million VietNamese dead etc, etc. \r\n\r\n>>>>>   To the victor goes the spoils.  To the losers who didn't know how to work with metal, tough shit.\r\n\r\n\r\nEuorpean culture is the most &quot;savage&quot; in the history of the world. \r\n\r\n>>>>>>  Also the most powerful and intelligent.\r\n\r\nBut the MinutemenSOS want us to believe they are &quot;superior.&quot; \r\n\r\n>>>>>>   Whether they're superior is a matter of obviousness.  This is OUR land, Pedro.  Your &quot;culture&quot; fuckin LOST and it lost big time to the Spaniards before the White Man.\r\n\r\nAnd yes, anyone who thought they were being &quot;freed&quot; by the European is pathetic and dumb, be they Native \/ Mexican, African, Asian or in the most recent bloodthirsty example, the Iraqis. \r\n\r\n>>>>   Arguing with the liberal ignoratti (redundant term).  A wonderful pasttime.\r\n\r\n","author":"while Mexican indians used rocks","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 16:15:13","modified":"2005-06-05 16:15:13","fileurl":""},{"id":128228,"heading":"&quot;Aryans&quot; Rock?","article":"Whitey Rocks Wrote:\r\n&quot;>>>>>> Whether they're superior is a matter of obviousness. This is OUR land, Pedro. Your &quot;culture&quot; fuckin LOST and it lost big time to the Spaniards before the White Man.&quot;\r\n\r\nYou know, the Spanish are &quot;white.&quot; \r\n\r\nI think when _you_ say the &quot;white man&quot; you mean the &quot;Aryan,&quot; don't you.\r\n\r\n","author":"El Pocho","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 20:12:05","modified":"2005-06-05 20:12:05","fileurl":""},{"id":128229,"heading":"The ZERO","article":"In the Americas, there were no animals suited to be used as draft animals, so the wheel was useless. In Mexico \/ Anahuac the terrain was so mountainous that wagons were useless - more problematic than they could be worth. We had the wheel as a toy.\r\n\r\nIn the meantime, we had the most advanced mathematics on the globe, and the most advanced calendar, at a time when the rest of the world - Europe and the Arab world included, lacked even the concept of the zero. (You know you got your math from the Arabs - Al - Gebra, and all that.)\r\n\r\nYour ignorant and pathetic efforts to prove yourself &quot;superior&quot; are just so much hot air.\r\n\r\nYou just have to prove yourself &quot;superior&quot; to justify your hideous crimes against the human race.\r\n\r\n","author":"Subcomandante Joaquin","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 20:21:31","modified":"2005-06-05 20:21:31","fileurl":""},{"id":128231,"heading":"Whitey STILL Rocks 2-for-1 Special","article":"Whitey Rocks Wrote: \r\n\r\n>>>>>> Whether they're superior is a matter of obviousness. This is OUR land, Pedro. Your &quot;culture&quot; fuckin LOST and it lost big time to the Spaniards before the White Man.&quot; \r\n\r\nYou know, the Spanish are &quot;white.&quot; \r\n\r\n>>> Then &quot;you&quot; lost even earlier to the Spanish &quot;Whites.&quot;    \r\n\r\nI think when _you_ say the &quot;white man&quot; you mean the &quot;Aryan,&quot; don't you. \r\n\r\n>>>  What difference does it make?  Read a real history book, not the crap they make up in &quot;Chicano Studies&quot;\r\n\r\nIn the meantime, we had the most advanced mathematics on the globe, and the most advanced calendar, at a time when the rest of the world - Europe and the Arab world included, lacked even the concept of the zero. (You know you got your math from the Arabs - Al - Gebra, and all that.) \r\n\r\n>>>>   Well, it's been downhill ever since.  The savage Arabs also were pretty sophisticated, centuries ago.  You don't need to educate me so much as the Mexican street gangs.  \r\n\r\nYour ignorant and pathetic efforts to prove yourself &quot;superior&quot; are just so much hot air. \r\n\r\n>>>>  The winners write history.  Don't take it personally.  Europeans were at war with each other for centuries (including the 20th).  That would be &quot;White guys&quot; versus &quot;White Guys.&quot;\r\n\r\nYou just have to prove yourself &quot;superior&quot; to justify your hideous crimes against the human race. \r\n\r\n>>>>  And I believe your savage ancestors cut the hearts out of living victims to appease ' the gods.'  \r\n\r\n>>>>  No one country or race is innocent, amigo.  Not one.\r\n\r\n>>> Only White liberal morons take the blame and guilt for shit that happened centuries ago, or even a few decades ago.  Luckily for the left, White liberal morons are in great supply these days).\r\n\r\n>>> You probably fear America turning into a shithole like Mexico is even more than I do, just not enough to admit the USA, like all countries, requires borders.\r\n","author":"Whitey STILL Rocks 2-for-1 Special","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-05 20:46:09","modified":"2005-06-05 20:46:09","fileurl":""},{"id":128268,"heading":"Liars...of course...","article":"Hey morons and cretins...\r\n\r\nSoS is not a Euro-racist organization.  SoS is a multi-ethnic group of patriotic Americans opposed to the invasion of the United States by illegal aliens.  SoS also stands in opposition ot leftist liberal scum like the Indy Media vermin who use lies and disinformation to recruit other leftist scum to join a misguided cause.\r\n\r\nSoS's Mexican-American members find it rather humorous to be called &quot;coconuts&quot; by you excremental stains....\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hellfire USA","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 05:23:43","modified":"2005-06-07 05:23:43","fileurl":""},{"id":128284,"heading":"might makes right","article":"I keep hearing &quot;might makes right,&quot; so F-U.  I keep hearing that &quot;white people&quot; kicked the S*** out of People of Color, so it is okay.  All the rewards to the victor kind of BS.  Well, you guys must love Middle Easterners, because some extremists (NOT the average Middle Easterners) waged the greatest attack on the super power of all time.  Then, after we respond with blatant terror on the innocent people over there, a freedom force responds with the same vengeance we saw in the Middle East.  We are getting our as*es kicked.  Does that mean that Osama is a great guy?  Does that mean that you want him over for dinner?  He is not caught, we kicked our rears, and he seems the most powerful; is he your hero?  Seems so, since might makes right, he must be the morally superior one of us all.\r\n\r\nAs far as Mexico, that is NOT even what the article is about, but you keep going there, because of your shame at our actions against hundreds of thousands of the Native people of the Americas.  What kind of people gives blankets tainted with Small Pox to tribes with women and children?  What kind of people make promises for piece, only to respond by stealing the land promised, and force men, women and children to do death marches for more miles than anyone could actually handle.  What kind of people would rather kill a family then to risk that anyone in that family could actually be an equal?  What kind of family conducts this terrorism in the name of their God?  Only the European-Christians.\r\n\r\nAnd, DumbAs[Hellfire USA]\r\n\r\nThere are several members of SOS who have said they have problems with that quote.  Go to your IRC and talk to your people before you come here and tell me this after I have already heard it from them.\r\n\r\nYou people claim not to be racist, yet every time you see a hard working Mexican, you claim they HAVE to be illegal.  I live across the street from two Mexican families.  The men work all day (way too many hours), and I drink beer with them from time to time.  We do not communicate very well because of the language barrier.  You know, I don't have a clue about their legal status, nor do I care.  Now how is it that I am somewhat friends with two families, spend time with them, and see them every day, and I don't know if they are legal citizens, yet you go to Home Depot, and can automatically tell, right away, everyone that is illegal.  I personally think you are seeing non-white working people, and then assuming a stereotype, and harassing them over it.  This is EXACTLY what the KKK does, they harass because of racial stereotypes (which are not founded, and often untrue).  And THAT is the reason that we, and the rest of the country, is going to run your group out of any town you TRY to go to!!!!!\r\n\r\nAlso, the FBI records everything in those IRC chat rooms, and will use them against you later.  Since your people always end up saying stupid stuff (like 1inch\u2019s consistent urge to carry a gun) the government will collect it, and then shut you guys down.  How do you think they got Sherman Austin (even though it wasn\u2019t even him in those IRC rooms).  Oh, and that reminds me, if anyone learns the name of people that go there, they can log in under that name, and post what ever they want, and YOU will get nailed for it (THAT is how they REALLY got Sherman)\r\n","author":"A Purple Fly On The Wall","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 13:57:48","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:29","fileurl":""},{"id":128286,"heading":"Oh, Mr. Purple Fly","article":"Nice about your neighbors, but...\r\nAre you paying to educate their kids? Are you paying for their medical care? SOS cares, even if you don't.\r\n\r\nAnd do you think they have a right to it? Enquiring minds want to know.","author":"Amarosa","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 14:29:27","modified":"2005-06-07 14:29:27","fileurl":""},{"id":128290,"heading":"You Racists","article":"See, that is exactly what I mean.  Would I educate any legal citizen's children?  Sure!!!  Now why is it that you only consider white people to be legal?  If I don't know their legal status, then how do you.  With each post by you my disgust by your group grows.  I onlw said two things, 1. their race, and 2. that they work very long hours, and look at your response, punish the children, take away their retirement, they HAVE to be illegal because true Americans are not Mexicans and are lazy.  I am white, and I pledge to fight you at every juncture, I will oppose you at every step, and I will follow you into the desert, into BP, where ever you go.  You racist pigs are not welcome in my town and I will stand with everyone else to run your asses out.  God Bless The Bottle Thrower!!!!  To bad it wasn't filled with rocks!!!!","author":"A Purple Fly","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 15:07:06","modified":"2005-06-07 15:07:06","fileurl":""},{"id":128291,"heading":"Amarosa","article":"To be honest, I would educate their children, but more important, I am glad you are forced to have yours educated.  The truth is you pigs will never change, and we know this, that is why people don't try to convert you into a human.  But your kids, that is where we really fight back, see, we educate them, and teach them to hate you.  Now, do I want to educate Mexicans? Absolutely, that way your children will go to school with them, they will learn that these CHILDREN are humans, and that you are evil.  Then when your children get a little older, they join our ranks, and help to run your asses back to the hills.  We teach your children to fight hate, we teach your kids to fight you.  \r\n\r\nAnd BTW, your taxes DON'T pay for illegal aliens you moron.  Get your facts straight!  You need to have pre-approval for Medi-Care and Medi-Cal unless it is an extreme situation.  More illegal aliens pay into health care than those that get services, so in many cases, they pay for YOU!!  Also, if you were willing to walk by ANY person dieing on the street and say, &quot;serves you right&quot; then you are the type of people that make heroes out of the bottle throwers!","author":"A Purple Fly","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 15:22:50","modified":"2005-06-07 15:22:50","fileurl":""},{"id":128299,"heading":"Invisible Mexicans, blacks, Asians, Indians...","article":"I'm sorry, I know it's not polite or reasonable to laugh at those who are intellectually less fortunate than the average American, but I just had to laugh after reading the following:\r\n\r\n> SoS is a multi-ethnic group of patriotic Americans\r\n\r\nROFL!\r\n\r\nWell, to be fair I suspect that some actually believe their own propaganda; we're talking the left side of the Bell Curve, after all.\r\n\r\nNow personally I've never seen these invisible &quot;mutli-ethnic group&quot; participating in racism thouigh I suppose if one can believe in invisible Super Friend Jesus and all the rest, one can whip up a bunch of invisible Mexican friends to join them spewing racist hatred.  It's merely a matter of playing pretend and trying hard to convince oneself.\r\n\r\nNow as for me, looking in from the outside, here's what I saw:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.thedarkwind.org\/nohate0.htm\r\n\r\nJust _look_ at all that racial diversity among the SOS\/Minutemen True AZmerican Heros!  It's like a Democratic National Convention out there, isn't it?  Throw in some invisible homosexuals and some purple Telitubbies and one could almost be convinced we're not looking at what I consider to be a variant on the old Klan Kookout, in my opinion.\r\n\r\nNow without a doubt (inb my mind and opinion, of course) the bad guys would _like_ to have ethic diversity exhibited among their followers since that would lend a minimal of legitimacy to some of their more outrageously false claims.\r\n\r\nI've got to wonder...  When someone posts a picture of a bunch of firearms on a &quot;muti-ethnic group&quot; web site which has the caption &quot;Celebrate Diversity,&quot; I've got to wonder how the bad guys expect people with IQs on the right side of the Bell Curve to actually believe anything they say.  And when they incite vehicular violence and then try to justify and excuse their follower's assaults against innocent, peaceful protesters, it kind of detracts from the supposition that the bad guys are really good intentioned some how.\r\n\r\nAnd when they assault people's freedom of speech, art, and expression in Baldwin Park?  And when they have known Nazis among them such as was covered by the Southern Poverty Law Center?\r\n\r\nWell, don't piss your pants in anger when I laugh.\r\n","author":"Fredric L. Rice","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 16:52:39","modified":"2005-06-07 16:52:39","fileurl":""},{"id":128300,"heading":"Nonsense","article":"&quot; More illegal aliens pay into health care than those that get services, so in many cases, they pay for YOU!! &quot;\r\n\r\nBeyond the fact that your posts are simply inane gibberish, filled with all manner of hysterical cries of racism when you clearly know nothing more about the situation then your bandwagonesque grasp of your leftist friends' silly spewing, this particular statement is utterly ridiculous.\r\n\r\nYou can't possibly believe this. No one is so incredibly stupid and still has access to a keyboard.\r\n\r\nSimply put, it is not racist to acknowledge the simple math of the drain one society experiences when it is forced to subsidize and accomodate another which, for all intents and purposes, does NOT feed back into the system at anything other then a merely negligible level.\r\n\r\nAnd why is all the talk centered on Mexican Illegal Immigrants? Simply because they are CLEARLY the group that makes up the VAST VAST VAST percentage of the illegal immigrants that find their way into our system.\r\n\r\nIt's hardly racist to observe this. Nor is it racist to have grown wearly of supporting it.\r\n\r\nI honestly have nothing but the utmost respect for these people and if possible, I'd love to trade alot of the scumbag citizens we have here for them and give them citizenship. Unfortunately, that's not an option. So, we're back to the same point where we have simply reached the breaking point, and those of us who actually are the ones paying taxes to support an entire other country, are tired of it.\r\n\r\nOf course, the simple math of the situation is wasted on you and fools like you, and your silly cries of racism, no borders, and 1people1world will continue as the rest of us pass you by and pity you your emotionally fraught, less-then-critical thinking.\r\n\r\nLemming.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 17:02:56","modified":"2005-06-07 17:02:56","fileurl":""},{"id":128306,"heading":"Fresca","article":"Fresca,\r\n\r\nWe have all learned to ignore you over the years, as you have become so predictable, it is often funny.  We DEFINE your positions, because you oppose anything that anyone on this site supports.  Nonetheless, I will respond to you on this one.  I worked in a hospital in administration, and I know for a FACT that all the crazy stuff about illegal aliens coming here and drain the tax system in health care is false.  There are people who are not citizens getting health care, these are paid through foundations and religious organizations.  There are certain funds set up for EXTREME situations where illegal aliens can get assistance, but they are rarely given any support.  I have seen (first hand) people that were dying, and hospice support was denied.  Luckily, the hospice program had established a foundation through donations, and used funds there to provide the health care.\r\n\r\nYou preach your propaganda so much, you actually believe it don\u2019t you?\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.aila.org\/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section2\r\nhttp:\/\/www.aila.org\/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section2\r\nhttp:\/\/www.aila.org\/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section2\r\n\r\n","author":"Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 17:44:03","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:29","fileurl":""},{"id":128309,"heading":"Uh, thanks, I guess","article":"Thanks, for the, ahem, links to such a, ahem, non-biased and credible source, as the one you've directed me to.\r\n\r\nI guess I stand corrected since the website clearly let me know that the problem of illegal immigration and it's &quot;drain&quot; on society ios clearly a racist myth. After all, everyone knows that all illegal immigrants are paying more than their fair share of taxes. Right?\r\n\r\nThis is utter nonsense. First of all, the average illegal immigrant isn't even making enough to be taxed. That's a given. So where exactly is the money for their services coming from? Private grants you say. Yeah, right. Absolutely.\r\n\r\nYou have got to try better than that.\r\n\r\nAs far as opposing any view put forth here, clearly you havn't read many of my posts. Granted, I've had alot of fun mocking and refuting many of the inane conspiracy theories which abound around here. Chemtrails anyone? Remote controlled planes? But there are many issues that I fall on the same side as the average visitor here. Abortion, Gay Marriage, Drug Legalization, ANti-Corporate Blaot and Bailouts.\r\n\r\nBut the illegal immigration problem is simply a math equation. There are no value judgements to be made. There are simply so many resources to go around and we either stop giving them away to a group which cannot, even if it actually wanted to, pay back, or we force those of us doing the resource generation to assume even more responsibility. Frankly, your links and your bleeding heart fantasy of the illegal immigrat fueled economy are nonsense.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 17:57:08","modified":"2005-06-07 17:57:08","fileurl":""},{"id":128310,"heading":"Fly","article":"Thanks for beating me to this fool, fresca.\r\n\r\nThis is why I love the left. We talk about economics, supporting the poorest of a neighboring third world country that would have to get it's act together without the safety valve of the US, and the first response from anyone of tthe left is instant hysterical bleating about RACISM! RACISM! I don't care where they're from, or what color they are I'M SICK OF PAYING FOR IT. They pay for their own medical care, my ass. Paid for by private foundations, oh please.Why then are emergency rooms closing all over California? \r\n And thanks for thinking of my kid's future as lefties. Like that'll happen. \r\n\r\nAnd for good old Fred, no one is trying to take away this &quot;artists&quot; freedom of speech, art, expression, in Baldwin Park, but WHY AM I PAYING FOR something claiming racist nonsense like it was better before whitey got here?  Look at indy's own picture of these protests. Which side looks full of hate? Were the SOS people surrounding an old Mexican guy's van and beating on it? \r\n\r\nJust as fresca said, thanks for the links to the immigration lawyers website. That'll change a few minds. ","author":"Amarosa","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:16:05","modified":"2005-06-07 18:16:05","fileurl":""},{"id":128311,"heading":"I was away camping","article":"The Sierras are beautiful!  If you need a quiet break, get up there before the crowds mob the mountains.  There's snow up there too, if you are into the x-country skiing.\r\n\r\nThough I don't agree with theories about racial entitlements to land, I won't hide this one.  First off, I'm not really supposed to hide anything unless hiding is allowed by the policy, this post may qualify.  Second, a lot of other land-and-race, and plain &quot;land&quot; or eco stuff has gone up on here, for years.\r\n\r\nThird and most importantly -- this statement is part of the dialogue and conflict around a local issue that is involving a range of activists.  It is one of many ideas that energize the movement against oppression.\r\n\r\nThe issue of the connection between land and people is touchy.  One well know example of the land-race argument was Germany's invasion of Poland (and other lands), based on the idea that they were actually &quot;German.&quot;\r\n\r\nOn the flipside, there are arguments like those above, and those made by Palestinians (who aren't technically indigenous, but were there before), and those by indigenous people inside other countries.\r\n\r\nThe former tend to be &quot;offensive&quot; and are a prelude to some kind of invasion by a stronger country over a weaker country.  The latter tend to be &quot;defensive&quot; and defending the rights of a population already losing ground, literally.\r\n\r\nIn the case of the myth of Aztlan, the claim is, I believe, primarily a psychological defense.  The land is already gone.  The myth of Aztlan, and related myths, are an effort to construct a story that justifies a people's right to exist where they live.  I have such a myth for myself, and it's different (and multiculturalist).  Everyone has such a myth, especially white people in America, who need to justify not only existence, but domination.  (It was called Manifest Destiny.)  At some level, we all want to be indigenous, somewhere.\r\n\r\nThe indigenous character of the myth has become very important, due, I believe, to globalization.  No longer is the primary conflict between nations, but between global MNCs and the people who have rights to land, water, and minerals.  As countries and MNCs have aligned, the battle moved from fights between countries to fights between classes of people within the countries.  The people respond by fighting, or fleeing.  When they flee, some come up here.\r\n\r\nIn the larger scheme of things, it's in the MNCs interests to have strong borders, to keep people from moving anywhere.  They would like to see entire countries become &quot;company towns&quot; where the big company owns the resources, the government, and ulitimately, owns the lives of the people, who, by working for the company, become indebted to it.  They cannot leave, because the company owns the cops and courts, and writes the laws.\r\n\r\n(Begin ominous music.)\r\n\r\nThe culture of globalization is the new imperialist force.  It gives rights to the rich, and takes rights from the poor.  It eradicates culture, and replaces it with commodities.  It stops natural human migration, and replaces it with &quot;stinkin badges.&quot;\r\n\r\nFor Americans, the MNCs try to get allies by providing (some of) us with the opportunity to live in our private Disneylandias.  The manicured festival architecture hides the barbed wire fences and security cameras.  They let us eat Ding Dongs and Doritos, and call it the taste of Freedom.  They hope we will ignore what the &quot;Made in Haiti&quot; tags on the Mickey Mouse ears really mean.\r\n\r\n(End ominous music.)\r\n\r\nI'll conclude this long-ass essay with a couple lighthearted quotes:\r\n\r\n&quot;Open borders, open minds.&quot; -- allegedly said by Mike Watt formerly of The Minutemen, seminal anti-imperialist punk-fusion band from San Pedro.\r\n\r\n&quot;Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.  None but ourselves can free our minds.&quot; -- Bob Marley\r\n\r\n&quot;Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges!&quot; --Gold Hat, as played by Alfonso Bedoyo in &quot;The Treasure of the Sierra Madre&quot;, original book by B. Traven\r\n\r\n&quot;Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabron and chinga tu madre! Come out there from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.&quot; -- the original quote from the book, 1935\r\n","author":"johnk","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:19:50","modified":"2005-06-07 18:19:50","fileurl":""},{"id":128312,"heading":"A Retired Health Care Worker","article":"They are closing because uninsured people (AMERICANS) can not go to the doctors and get emergency room treatment, but again, they can't pay for it.  YOUR private health care plans are what is killing our hospitals.  Immigrants have NOTHING to do with it.  Why don't you get off your butt, drive down to one of these hospitals, go to the Administrators and FIND OUT why they are closing.\r\n\r\nIt is the consistent protection of HMOs, decline in public funding for Health Care, and laws that force the treatment of uninsured AMERICANS that are killing Health Care.  These are all from the RIGHT!\r\n\r\nWhen ever there is a problem, you always blame the minority.  THAT is why we consider you a racist.\r\n","author":"A Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:21:41","modified":"2005-06-07 18:21:41","fileurl":""},{"id":128313,"heading":"Racism","article":"I saw someone else do this, and it works\u2026.\r\n\r\nYou Said, \u201cAnd why is all the talk centered on Mexican Illegal Immigrants? Simply because they are CLEARLY the group that makes up the VAST VAST VAST percentage of the illegal immigrants that find their way into our system.  It's hardly racist to observe this.\u201d \r\n\r\nWell, look at the definition of racism:\r\nrac\u00b7ism  (rszm) n.   Discrimination or prejudice based on race.\r\n\r\nYou may not think racism is bad, but SOS\/MMP IS racist.  \r\n","author":"A Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:25:57","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:29","fileurl":""},{"id":128317,"heading":"RACISTS RACISTS RACISTS","article":"Well, the left can take the credit for requiring treatment of the people in need, and that does tick off the right.\r\n\r\nThe protection of insurance companies, increased costs of insurance, and decreased pay for the working people.  The illegal immigrants are such a small portion of the uninsured treated, because many of them DON\u2019T GET TREATMENT because they are worried they will get caught here, or worse, lose their jobs (they DON\u2019T have the legal protections we have and DO get fired for getting hurt).\r\n\r\nThe majority of people on Welfare are white, NOT Mexicans, the Majority of people getting health care and not paying for it are white NOT Mexicans.  Yes its WHITE people that are killing the system.  But YOU guys are blaming Mexicans.  You are racist, racist, racist!\r\n","author":"A Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:32:46","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:29","fileurl":""},{"id":128318,"heading":"ugg","article":"Sorry everyone for my rant, I normally only read on this site (to old for this stuff) but I really hate stupid racist people.  I remember when these people were attacking MLK in Chicago!  New generation, but the same tune.  Calling anyone who wants equality communists.  Calling anyone who wants equal education and employment opportunities social drains.  If these people had their way, Africans would still only have a 2\/3 vote, not be allowed to sit in the front of busses, and have to use different drinking fountains.  They were called lazy, they were called trouble makers.  It is the EXACT same tune!\r\n\r\nBut this time they are claiming to know about MY industry, and then saying I don't know.  \r\n","author":"A Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 18:38:27","modified":"2005-06-07 18:38:27","fileurl":""},{"id":128323,"heading":"DONT FEED THE TROLLS","article":"Retired,\r\n\r\nYour insight is great and your passion is inspiring, but your efforts are futile.  These people don\u2019t deal in facts, and they aren't here to convince anyone.  They just want to get the anti-racist people angry.  It would be better just not to feed them, they will not go away, but your comments just get them to rant more.  If they were intelligent, they wouldn't be supporting what they are.  It\u2019s just not worth the effort.","author":"1planet1people","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 19:06:07","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:29","fileurl":""},{"id":128324,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"...oh, a fine example of  da dancing shitpile rhetorical technique;  dismisses your valid points without addressing them, claim victory...move on to the next lie....\r\n\r\n...looks like you lose again shitpile...\r\n\r\n...I'm gonna stop, wasting my time....\r\n\r\n...somebody else, woulda broken both of her arms.","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 19:07:54","modified":"2005-06-07 19:07:54","fileurl":""},{"id":128327,"heading":"I second that","article":"been away - now I'm back...","author":"Hex","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-06-07 19:24:50","modified":"2005-08-15 03:12:17","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/spec.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/spec.jpg"}},{"id":128330,"heading":"Oh c'mon","article":"&quot;...oh, a fine example of da dancing shitpile rhetorical technique; dismisses your valid points without addressing them,&quot;\r\n\r\nOh c'mon fool, I know you get all frustrated having me refute and toy with you all the time but even YOU know that Bob the &quot;retired health care worker&quot; didn't come up with ANY valid points other then the fantastical assertion that Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the health care sytem then they take out.\r\n\r\nThere's no way that even you can but laugh at that.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 19:46:19","modified":"2005-06-07 19:46:19","fileurl":""},{"id":128334,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"da dancing shitpile: &quot;the &quot;retired health care worker&quot; didn't come up with ANY valid points other then the fantastical assertion that Illegal immigrants actually pay more into the health care sytem then they take out.&quot;\r\n\r\nOh really?  He made that assertion?  Where?  When?\r\n\r\nNow, will you admit that it was not his assertion, but your strawman argument built to change the topic?  Or will you, in defeat, continue to cling to your lies?\r\n\r\nTaste the whip, in love not given lightly\r\nTaste the whip, now plead for me","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 20:16:43","modified":"2005-06-07 20:16:43","fileurl":""},{"id":128339,"heading":"Correction","article":"&quot; Oh really? He made that assertion? Where? When?&quot;\r\n\r\nNope. He didn't say that. I stand corrected. That assertion was made by Purple Fly. A claim I quickly called him on as inane. That was the cue for Todd the &quot;retired health care worker&quot; to try and defend and reassert the original inanity by giving links to his even more inane site.\r\n\r\nSo no he didn't type that but yes he did assert it with his rebuttal and links.\r\n\r\nKeep 'em coming. If trying to catch me in a mistake of attributions to two different, like minded posters is the best you can do, well then....\r\n\r\nP.S. Do you actually think that a guy like Phil &quot;the retired health care worker&quot; DOESN'T believe that sort of nonsense to begin with? Of course he does. ","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 20:42:01","modified":"2005-06-07 20:42:01","fileurl":""},{"id":128342,"heading":"speaking of which","article":"During the past 18 months I checked in here every once in awhile (after the little game of &quot;let's block his uploads but not the trolls&quot; which was why I left BTW) and saw the same TIME SINK GAMES going on so I never bothered to post, HOWEVER our network has grown  - to the point of  public access &quot;wifi&quot; nodes (like  many cities are doing) and we're ready to roll out our servers and go fully public but using stealth tunnels so no one but me knows where the servers physical locations are which has been a long time in the making since we've been busy running our own network  with plenty to do.\r\n\r\nI did go over the data I had collected with a fresh perspective (the tracing down of the trolls to actual people by checking the IP &quot;droppings&quot; over  thousands of posts along with some more DATA MINING) and it occured to me that &quot;fresca&quot; is ned's wife.\r\n\r\nAnd looking at netcraft now, I see kobehq just keeps bouncing from one IP to another (still!).\r\n\r\nCross-checking the IP's revealed there with these other &quot;new&quot; rightwing extremists attacks on IMC's pipe and servers may be VERY enlightening\r\n\r\nhowever I don't have the kind of time to invest these days in doing this sort of thing anymore (it's even more of a time sink than banging one's head upon the brick wall of fresca and hubby &quot;BA&quot; )\r\n\r\nand where-oh-where did jerry go after finding IMC patrons are &quot;a bit too good at tracing down our IP's&quot; as one wingnut put it (a web search revealed)\r\n\r\nfresh searches also revealed LGF nominating me as worst ever - um - antirightwingnut (ha) and some other amusements, however the main thing I noticed is this-\r\n\r\nthis group that's bothering IMC seems to be composed of the *same people just using different websites and handles* with only a few IF ANY new members added over the past 5 years (how long I've been collecting data on them)\r\n\r\nTo diffuse the attention they have simply spread around thier efforts, and\/but are still doing the same things as always.\r\n\r\nWe've went over a tarabyte of data storage this year and there's quite a bit of data on them.  (this part of the archive started with the saved Studio-X streams and IMC posts from 2000' which is under the heading &quot;political&quot;, right up to the present.\r\n\r\nThe more data you look at the more you see it's just a small core group and very little has changed in 5 years.  It's not the handles that you pay attention to, it's the *IP's*, combined with other data (biometrics),  you see a very ugly picture take shape - a surprisingly small group of people desperately wanting to appear larger in number than they really are...\r\n\r\n\r\nAs far as the endless blabbering goes, where I live we have a lot of drunks who have no higher calling in life beyond running thier mouths - in person.\r\n\r\nPeople get tired of it so they *get online where you can't tell they are simply abusive drunks* and find a whole new audience to preach to.\r\n\r\nI suspect that most of the time and effort being wasted in this conflict is due to THIS - we are simply dealing with a small (like 3) group of drunks with time on thier hands.   They've only went as far as they have by taking on extra personas and doing the proxy thing (most of  the collected IP's have been proxies but with clearly the same people posting)   This charade was simply carried over to hitting various websites and using them for cover (the rightwing websites are more productive for recruitment and exposure than simply bouncing off proxies)\r\n\r\nThis is what the data shows...\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-06-07 20:51:41","modified":"2005-08-15 03:12:17","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/beerstudy.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/beerstudy.jpg"}},{"id":128344,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"da shitpile: &quot;P.S. Do you actually think that a guy like Phil &quot;the retired health care worker&quot; DOESN'T believe that sort of nonsense to begin with?&quot;\r\n\r\n..what nonsense?   \r\n\r\nOH, excuse me, for a minute there I thought you might be making a point and not just another baseless dancing shitpile assertion.\r\n\r\nI think you've done sucked your lemon peel dry, shitpile.","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-07 21:00:43","modified":"2005-06-07 21:00:43","fileurl":""},{"id":128377,"heading":"Purple Fly, take a flying leap","article":"Take a flying leap.\r\n\r\nIllegal Mexican immigration, IS A CRIME.\r\n\r\nEven though you may not mind prositutes selling their bodies on your street corners, it is still a crime.\r\n\r\nMaybe, you look the other way when you see a parent beating the crap out of his kid.  It does not matter, child abuse is still a crime.\r\n\r\nSee, no matter how much you look the other way, when a crime is being committed, it is still a crime.\r\n\r\nIt is not just the illegal Mexican immigrants, that we want punished, for this crime against all Americans.\r\n\r\nWe want the white traitors who hire them, strung up at the nearest tree. \r\n\r\nWe want all white traitors, who have aided and abetted these illegal immigrants punished.\r\n\r\nI do not care how many beers, you drink with these criminals, they are still criminals.\r\n\r\nLaw-abiding Americans are going to have their justice.\r\n\r\nWe are a nation of equality.  WE MUST ALL OBEY THE RULE OF LAW.  IF YOU DO NOT OBEY THAT RULE OF LAW, YOU WILL BE EQUALLY PUNISHED.","author":"Orange dragon","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 01:29:54","modified":"2005-06-08 01:29:54","fileurl":""},{"id":128382,"heading":"Go Back To Stromfront","article":"You can take that dragon right back to stromfront you uneducated impudent scum bag racist.  I have no tolerance for your type, and you don't scare me.  You back woods nazis aren't worth the air you breathe.  I am glad your group is working with SOS because it will be easy to multiple our numbers 30 fold.  Everyone hates your group, and there is no longer any confusion.  You are the bottom scum that the white race has to offer.  The only reason I would agree to forced sterilization is to rid the human race of you genes.  You can take White Pride World Wide and shove it up your White A55.  If you had a clue about America, you would know this: (A post from 1P1P on another string).  \r\n\r\nWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. \r\n\r\nThe only thing illegal is the institutions that install restrictions on the free movement of humans, especially when they need that movement to ensure health and security. Not just the US institutions, ALL of them. SOS and the MMP is as American as the Al Qaeda. Learn your history, learn the philosophy that our original government was founded on. The only law that matters is the laws of nature, and any government that creates a law counter to that, it is simply illegal.\r\n","author":"A Purple Fly","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 01:52:43","modified":"2005-06-08 01:52:43","fileurl":""},{"id":128397,"heading":"&quot;YOU WILL BE PUNISHED&quot;","article":"DoS'ing is illegal, making threats to politicians is illegal, trashing other peoples files and databases are illegal.  These nameless unknown persons you've accused like with the underground railroad, like safehouses back in your day, were a great help in freeing and helping other oppressed peoples.\r\n\r\nWith rare exception, they were never punished.   On the computer front however, with ISP's now *required* to maintain records for years by the very patriot acts you blindly supported and never read - laws enacted to make it legal to do only what the nazi's could get by with - and with *people like me* filling in the unknowns with data you can't get to, you may get a very rude awakening to what's REALLY illegal in the form of a visit by the very people you're trying to hide behind.\r\n\r\nThe name changes but the IP records don't - try to keep that in mind when you transform yourself online to the above","author":"Hex","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2005-06-08 05:41:40","modified":"2005-08-15 03:12:17","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/internet_fuckwad.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2005\/06\/internet_fuckwad.jpg"}},{"id":128400,"heading":"to JohnK - the Myth of Amerikkka","article":"John;\r\n\r\nI gather you are the editor here, and I don't find it surprising then that this site has no category for the struggles of oppressed the oppressed and colonized nationalities..\r\n\r\nI ask that you create one, and give the editorship of it to a person of color.\r\n\r\nI was, I suppose, bemused, not outraged - a bit bemused, a bit bored, by your remarks on this. \r\n\r\nI suppose, if I were too worried about what you think, that I would be offended that you talk of &quot;race and land&quot; here. Because, really, no one mentioned &quot;race.&quot; \r\n\r\nIndigenous cultures exits world wide, and have similar rights and relationships to colonial powers throughout the world without respect to the imaginary construct of &quot;race&quot; you impose on the dialog.\r\n\r\nAnd one thing is clear. International law does not recognize the right of conquest and the seizure of territory, however much the mythology of the European occupier might have desensitized you to the fact.\r\n\r\nReally, you see, Aztlan is fact, and &quot;America&quot; is a myth, in one sense, at least, if in no other. Aztlan has been here for thousands fo generations. The US for only the blink of an eye.\r\n\r\n And you should get your facts straight before you pontificate on how we should just get over ourselves and recognize that &quot;the land is gone.&quot;\r\n\r\nThe Xicana\/o People are native to this land. From Guatemala to Hopiland the Kachinas and deities, the spirit of the land, are one. Our peoples, largely the Uto-Aztecan peoples-the Hopi, Comanche, Shoshone, Tongva, Ute, Tohona O'odham,  Ra-Ram-Uri (Tarahumara), Huichol, Paiute, and Azteca (Mexica) --arose from this land. \r\n\r\nOur origins, so the anthropologists tell us, lie in the area at the southern border of New Mexico and Arizona.\r\n\r\nWe are part of not only a single language group that streches from Idaho to Nicaragua, but a single civilization with interpenetrating cultural, linguistic and spiritual\/ ritual norms - a civilization  that knew no borders for over 30,000 years -- and has only known them now for a 150 years. \r\n\r\nAnd for 150 years we have ignored them - because they are unnatural. They will never be obeyed and will never be \r\neffective because they run counter to natural law.\r\n\r\nYour border, like the myth of your nation itself, and like the &quot;manifest &quot; &quot;destiny&quot; \/ liebensraum ideology that gave rise to it, is nothing but an abberation, a speck of dust in the Grand Canyon of geolocical time, or, if you prefer, Indian Time.\r\n\r\nYou've never conquered anything, although your nation has destroyed plenty, and continues to do so.\r\n\r\nYet you want us to simply acquiese, to in effect &quot;grow up&quot; and admit  defeat, as if you had any right whatsoever to even speak on the matter.\r\n\r\nUS Leftists of all kinds are usually pretty good at asking the question that lies at the base of all understanding of class relationships and politics - that urgent question &quot;who does it serve&quot;?\r\n\r\nYou know how to ask it of Bush, but not of yourselves, not when it comes to dealing with those your people have directly colonized and enslaved.\r\n\r\nSo I will ask it.\r\n\r\nWho does it serve when you declare the land &quot;gone.,&quot; ie, the permanent possession of the colonial settler state of the, in this case, Eurpopean invader?\r\n\r\nThe answer is obvious. It serves exactly the kind of white nationalism we see in the SOS and Stormfront groups and the underlying ideology of US right and power and its empire throughout the globe.\r\n\r\nWould you give similar counsel to the Palestinians?\r\n\r\nShould the subjugated peoples of the world &quot;admit&quot; that the world itself is &quot;gone&quot; because US Imperialism has claimed it?\r\n\r\nNo, of course not.\r\n\r\nThe kind of realpolitick you espouse here, beneath all its liberal gloss,, serves the oppressor.\r\n\r\nThe implicit threat that you should have &quot;hidden&quot; (a polite term for &quot;censor&quot; - or make invisible) this essay also speaks for itself.\r\n\r\nIt is a small wonder that the numbers of white allies who have stepped up at Baldwin Park and Garden Gorve to defend our people against the New Reich and its Minutemen Stormtroopers has been so small, if your remarks are in any way indicative of the outlook fo the white left.\r\n\r\nWell, we are not living under the Thousand Year Reich, Bush et al notwithstanding.\r\n\r\nThe US, like the USSR and other empires before it, is a (very) temporary phenomenon.\r\n\r\nAnd for the people of the world, including the Natige peoples of Aztlan Anahuac and Ixachilan, that can only be a good thing.\r\n\r\nChicomozteca\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Chicomozteca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 07:58:16","modified":"2005-06-08 07:58:16","fileurl":""},{"id":128401,"heading":"re To JohnK - Myth of Amerikka","article":"John,\r\n\r\nOn review, I can see that I really overinterpreted you. \r\n\r\nMy critique of your statement  that the land is gone (and that by extension the so-called &quot;myth&quot; of Aztlan is a psychological defense) stands.\r\n\r\nBut I overgeneralized from that one statement, and was somewhat unfair to you in doing so.\r\n\r\nYour intent was, clearly, on review, to take a stand against oppression and oppressors and to justify, as best you could with the tools at your disposal,  the rebellion of our  People and of all oppressed nations against the global empire.\r\n\r\nI suppose I jumped the gun, and that from the outset I did in fact take exception and offense to your equating the essay above to a &quot;race and land&quot; argument ( with the ever present implication on the left of &quot;reactionary nationalism.&quot;)\r\n\r\nSo, I was too harsh. \r\n\r\nI hope you will accept my apology for that much.\r\n\r\nChicomozteca\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Chicomozteca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 08:20:04","modified":"2005-06-08 08:20:04","fileurl":""},{"id":128405,"heading":"JohnK- Former editor","article":"Well, here you have it, John, the essence of life in Leftyville. Now you are supposed to set up some new segment of Indymedia to keep Chicoescuella happy, and you better make DAMN sure the new editor is a &quot;person of color.&quot; (God, I love that term.)\r\n\r\nMakes you wonder why you bother, doesn't it?","author":"Frank H.","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 11:33:05","modified":"2005-06-08 11:33:05","fileurl":""},{"id":128410,"heading":"Desperation","article":"&quot;da shitpile: &quot;P.S. Do you actually think that a guy like Phil &quot;the retired health care worker&quot; DOESN'T believe that sort of nonsense to begin with?&quot;\r\n\r\n..what nonsense?\r\n\r\nOH, excuse me, for a minute there I thought you might be making a point and not just another baseless dancing shitpile assertion. &quot;\r\n\r\nI'll just chalk that reply up to desperation as you obviously know what point I'm refering to unless you've somehow managed to forget the subject of the thread already.\r\n\r\nSo we'll agree that Bruce &quot;the RETIRED HEALTH CARE WORKER&quot; almost surely shares the same inane fantasy of the unanswered illegal immigrant dollars flowing into our health care system.\r\n\r\nBTW, it was purplepill who brought up the health care issue. I actually don't see that as the largest drain to begin with. But to make an assertion like his is just to big a target to not hit back.\r\n\r\nSo, back to you follower.\r\n\r\nLet's me just get something straight. Where exactly do you stand? IS there, at all, a problem with illegal immigration OR is it ALL just a racist Strawman?\r\n\r\nNow, I know you're not very fond of actual communicative posts beyond a few periods and a lame &quot;insult&quot; or two but actually TRY to answer this if you will. It's at least a starting point.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 12:27:00","modified":"2005-06-08 12:27:00","fileurl":""},{"id":128411,"heading":"Re Purple Fly","article":"&quot;&quot;The only thing illegal is the institutions that install restrictions on the free movement of humans, especially when they need that movement to ensure health and security. Not just the US institutions, ALL of them. SOS and the MMP is as American as the Al Qaeda. Learn your history, learn the philosophy that our original government was founded on. The only law that matters is the laws of nature, and any government that creates a law counter to that, well, it is simply illegal.&quot;&quot;\r\n\r\nNice c&p job of one of the more ridiculous paragraphs ever to grace this board. It was ridiculous when 1people1world (ugh, just that name alone is embarrassing!) wrote it and it's even more ridiculous now that you've taken it to heart and copied it. Unless of course you ARE 1p1w in which case you're simply creepy.\r\n\r\nAnyhow, I do agree with you on one thing. As much as I think illegal immigration is a problem, I absolutely LOATHE all this White Power bullshit creeping into the mix. If I had to choose, I think I'd sooner give California over to Mexico rather then let these scumbags have it. Their very notion that this is a White versus Brown issue is not only abhorrent but it's clearly apt to blow up in their faces.\r\n\r\nANyway, we agree on something.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 12:36:23","modified":"2005-06-08 12:36:23","fileurl":""},{"id":128419,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"da dancing SHITPILE: &quot; IS there, at all, a problem with illegal immigration OR is it ALL just a racist Strawman? &quot;\r\n\r\nWhenever you bring it up...it is ALL just a racist Strawman  (it capitalizes 'Strawman' but not 'african'...hmmmmm).\r\n\r\nThat was easy...next question.","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 13:48:16","modified":"2005-06-08 13:48:16","fileurl":""},{"id":128422,"heading":"Good","article":"Great. Now wer'e getting somewhere.\r\n\r\nSo just to clarify, you're saying that there is simply NO problem with illegal immigration.\r\n\r\nNone at all. It's all just a huge ploy to unleash unmitigated racism on Mexicans.\r\n\r\nOk. Great. Now I know where you stand.\r\n\r\nIt will be handy to refer back to this.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 13:59:18","modified":"2005-06-08 13:59:18","fileurl":""},{"id":128423,"heading":"Two other things","article":"Thanks for making my &quot;a few paragraphs and some lame insults&quot; prediction stand up and I'm glad that I've got you capitalizing Strawman as well now.\r\n\r\nHere's one for you. When using the word Indian should one capitalize it or not.\r\n\r\nI suspect that would be a tough one for you, being as how it's so offensive to begin with.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 14:02:07","modified":"2005-06-08 14:02:07","fileurl":""},{"id":128426,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"SHITPILE HOT-CHA-CHA: &quot;So just to clarify, you're saying that there is simply NO problem with illegal immigration. &quot;\r\n\r\nNope.  Didn't say that dimwit.  You are an admitted racist, when you bring it up, it is nothing but racist sStrawman.\r\n\r\nSHITPILE A-ONE-A-AND-A-TWO-A: &quot;When using the word Indian should one capitalize it or not.&quot;\r\n\r\nCapitalized, of course.  I capitalize Pakastani as well..\r\n\r\n...how about you...do you capitalize &quot;nigger&quot;?","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 14:12:56","modified":"2005-06-08 14:12:56","fileurl":""},{"id":128429,"heading":"Actually you did","article":"&quot; Nope. Didn't say that dimwit.&quot;\r\n\r\nActually you did. You clearly said it was a Strawman. Wheteher  bring it up or not.\r\n\r\nSo, open borders? Or what? Return California to Aztlan?\r\n\r\nAnd &quot;Pakastani&quot;.. I'm confused by your nonsequitor. Clearly we're talking about American Indians. You know, chief Wahoo and the like.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 14:18:23","modified":"2005-06-08 14:18:23","fileurl":""},{"id":128433,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"SHUFFLIN' SHITPILE: &quot;Pakastani&quot;.. I'm confused by your nonsequitor. Clearly we're talking about American Indians.&quot;\r\n\r\n...yes, we KNOW you have shitpile rules of grammar to help support your admitted racism, but the rest of us don't have that problem....\r\n\r\n...how about math?  Do you refuse to use a zero 'cause it was concieved by Islamist?\r\n\r\n\r\n...try to keep up here, will ya?","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 14:28:55","modified":"2005-06-08 14:28:55","fileurl":""},{"id":128439,"heading":"Actually","article":"&quot;Do you refuse to use a zero 'cause it was concieved by Islamist?&quot;\r\n\r\nI don't think Islamists existed back them. Maybe you mean muslim.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 15:17:32","modified":"2005-06-08 15:17:32","fileurl":""},{"id":128441,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"...I didn't attend SHITPILE 101, so I will leave such distinctions to da shitpiles of the world...","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 15:22:06","modified":"2005-06-08 15:22:06","fileurl":""},{"id":128443,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"HEY!\r\n\r\nTry to keep up here you feeble fuck....","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 15:31:53","modified":"2005-06-08 15:31:53","fileurl":""},{"id":128472,"heading":"BTW","article":"Just so you know, the concept of zero has been around a helluva lot longer than islam.","author":"fresca","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 17:48:17","modified":"2005-06-08 17:48:17","fileurl":""},{"id":128480,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"SHITPILE: &quot;islam.&quot;\r\n\r\nWelcome to Racist Grammar 101.  Your TA will be Mr. Shitpile...please turn to section 7 of your Racist Grammar Workbooks...we will be working on &quot;How To Avoid Capitalizing When Referring To Sub-Humans&quot;....\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 17:56:28","modified":"2005-06-08 17:56:28","fileurl":""},{"id":128481,"heading":"Hate to say I told you so","article":"If you watched the news today, you will see my point.  Insurance companies are out of control, and people cannot afford the insurance.  Today GM announced that it is eliminating 25,000 jobs.  Why you ask?  Because the cost of $1,500 per care to cover insurance costs make them uncompetitive, and they have to eliminate US jobs.  They will likely open up factories in countries that either have social medicine, or no health care requirement.  The result will be 25,000 more people without healthcare.  While you guys continue to attack immigrants, the US economy will continue to go to hell.  It is the right's protection of the private healthcare markets that are the real killer.  You need to stop the scapegoating and go after the real problems: Free Trade as opposed to Fair Trade, the Robbery of Healthcare Insurance and Pharmaceutical Products, and a system where people can go to the doctor to treat problems early instead of having to wait to go to the emergency room (universal healthcare coverage).  It won\u2019t happen though, and we will all pay for it through our pay, jobs, and health care.  But at least the factor workers will be able to find something, I hear McDonalds and Wal-Mart are hiring.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/money.cnn.com\/2005\/06\/07\/news\/fortune500\/gm_closings\/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/money.cnn.com\/2005\/06\/07\/news\/fortune500\/gm_closings\/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/money.cnn.com\/2005\/06\/07\/news\/fortune500\/gm_closings\/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories\r\n","author":"A Retired Health Care Worker","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-08 17:57:37","modified":"2013-11-11 00:33:30","fileurl":""},{"id":128541,"heading":"no probs","article":"Thanks for reading it again.  I tend to ramble a lot, and don't write as carefully as I should.\r\n\r\nI haven't been deep in the IMC in a while, having taken a big break, but, the issue of anti-racism and anti-colonialism has come up.  The difficulty was in classifying something as those things, when it seemed to come up in almost every single feature.\r\n\r\nAll of the editing here is being done by other people, not me.  They are hanging back, while I rant on the newswire.  So, I'm not the editor, in any sense.  I've just hidden a bunch of &quot;bullshit&quot; like RA Hawkins trying to promote himself, some of the nazi posts, and some other crap.  Just trying to lighten the load for the eds.\r\n\r\nThe issue of having people of color (POCs) active in the IMC is salient, however.  The number of POCs involved has declined over the years.  In particular, there haven't been any people interested in cultural political issues -- generally the POCs have been internationalists or anarchist anti-nationalists, and fixated on class, or have views on race like mine.\r\n\r\nThe need to increase that last kind of diversity will probably increase in importance if the movement(s) keep growing as they have.  I'm remembering from Churchill's COINTELPRO Papers book that this tension between class-oriented groups (the Black Panther Party) and culture-oriented groups (United Slaves) was exploited by the FBI to foment intense infighting within the Black Power movement.\r\n\r\nOn the issue of multiculturalism, I'm basically a liberal, not a radical.  I'm practially a white liberal integrationist.  (I'm not white.)  It's what makes me comfortable, and, your criticism that this general attitude plays into the colonialist ideology is valid.\r\n\r\nThis is the myth I subscribe to -- it's the one about the multicultural American struggle for equality and human rights.  I don't mean to say that with any heroic pride or anything.  It's just a fact.\r\n\r\nIn fact, that myth I like is very dangerous because it can turn on itself.  First off, the general multicultral ideology is like a costume for neoliberalism and the expansion of capitalism and modernity; &quot;multiculturalism&quot; actively destroys existing cultures.\r\n\r\nSecondly, multiculturalism can become a costume for fascism.  This is just my personal belief.  I think that this current war is a good example (though I don't think that US aggresson in Iraq is fascism) -- the invasion was constantly presented as a multicultural effort.  The implicit argument was that the US invasion must not be racist, because it's multicultural.  In fact, the amount of racism spewed from the government seemed neverending.  Likewise, in the SOS, we see nascent fascism, and, SOS like to tout that they are multicultural. Yet, every action they take is dripping with hate for Mexicans.\r\n\r\nDespite these problems with multicultural ideology, I still like the ideas.  It's a myth that justifies my existence within the US, as well as in any other country.  It explains the civil rights movement.  It explains reality to me.  It even gives me direction about political action.\r\n\r\nThat's not to say that's my only perspective or ideology.  It's just the one that's being forgrounded for this whole &quot;SOS&quot; thing.  I also believe that this struggle for equality is carried out by the oppressed, for their own liberation, and it's the fight for self-determination.  I do see the struggle as conflict, but one within a larger fight for human rights, not just as a conflict between powers.\r\n\r\nUltimately, in practical terms, it's these struggles that determine my politics.  My dreams of multiculturalism and equality necessarily take a back seat to choosing sides in this fight.","author":"johnk","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-09 06:58:19","modified":"2005-06-09 06:58:19","fileurl":""},{"id":128542,"heading":"to Frank H","article":"It might be a good idea to set up a racism section.  The LA IMC's been pretty weak on covering racism, but at the same time, has foregrounded racism in other stories.   Likewise, the mainstream media often covers racism, but it's usually decontextualized, and separated from class and gender issues.\r\n\r\nA decolonization section might be more appropriate and interesting, though.  The process of decolonization has a lot of history, and is more practical than just focusing on prejudice and discrimination (which are byproducts of colonialism).\r\n\r\nBack in the old days, I used to put decolonization stuff into &quot;Neoliberalism&quot;.  I think they're two sides of the same coin.","author":"johnk","parent_id":128101,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2005-06-09 07:10:53","modified":"2005-06-09 07:10:53","fileurl":""}]}