{"article":{"id":109929,"heading":"Forget The Trial Get The Rope: Bush Approved The Torture!!!","author":"gdy","created":"2004-05-11 00:06:38","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:39","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:29:39","article":"

May 9, 2004

From the Streets of Little Beirut

Glen Yeadon

Appalling, shocking, repulsive are some of the words used to describe the pictures taken by U.S. soldiers torturing Iraqis. With a flick of a camera's shutter CBS's Sixty Minutes II had captured the essence of one of this war's dirty little secrets. The report jerked the world's collective conscience to attention and focused on the appalling behavior of U.S. troops in Iraq as the photos of the torture taking place at Abu Ghraib prison aired freely around the globe, except in two countries. In Iraq the U.S. controlled media banned the airing of the photos and in the U.S. the distribution was severely limited.

Repercussions followed immediately as the Bush administration desperately tried to contain the damage. On the first day after the airing of the photos Bush feigned a personal disgust of the torture during a White House press briefing. A general, a sergeant and some privates were dismissed and face possible charges. The administration blamed the incident on a few rogues who lacked proper training and claimed it was an isolated incident. The Pentagon appointed the general who was in charge of Camp X-ray to take over managing of the prison in Iraq. Later in the week Bush was forced to apologize. Everyday brought new revelations. By the end of the week the dust still had not settled as Seymour Hersh revealed the existence of a hitherto secret army report by Army Major General Antonio Taguba. The report is criminally damaging to this administration. Bush claims he has not seen the report and blamed Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld for failing to show him the report.

While the shutter captured the gruesome horror in graphic detail, it missed capturing the full scope of the incident, as did CBS. This was not an isolated incident. It was not the result of a few rogues. Rather this incident was the result of careful long-term planning. In fact Bush and every other high official of this administration approved of the torture and we have their own words on that. The full scope leads down a dark trail, involving CIA mind control programs, child abuse\/pedophile control rings, Nazi scientists and the vital recognition of the Bush family's willfuland voluntary association for more than 80 years with Nazi elements.

Within days of 9\/11 members of the Bush administration including Bush proposed the use of torture. They claimed because 9\/11 was an act of terrorism the Geneva Convention did not apply because terrorist suspects were not prisoners of war instead in an unprecedented form of Texas style verbal gerrymandering suspects were to be classified as enemy combatants. Even in the shocked post 9\/11 environment this raised a few eyebrows among the liberals and those that value our constitutional rights. In fact they even went further in supporting the assassinations of suspects that could not be captured

This is the real story behind the torture reports the media has left out. For those that still fail to remember how this administration approved torture I suggest a trip to the local library and reading the immediate post 9\/11newspapers. You will find that all the top officials Bush, Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Powell and others approved the use of torture on terrorist suspects.

This incident was by no means an isolated. A quick Google search of the web will reveal reports of torture and mistreatment of prisoners as early as January 2002. In a February 2002 article appearing in the Guardian, Wayne Madsen a former U.S. navy intelligence officer told the Guardian the US was using two methods of torture. The first he referred to as \"lite\" torture or psychological torture. (Note this is the torture method linked to mind control and child abuse and will appear in an article of a later date.) The second method is \"full-blown\" torture.

In this second method the turns the prisoners over to a third country that has no limits on torture for interrogation. The interrogation proceeds oftentimes with an American overseeing the torture. Some prisoners have been summarily executed after the interrogation. The procedure of turning the prisoner over to a third country for interrogation is known as 'rendition.'

On March 11, 2002 the Washington Post published an article entitled \"US Behind Secret Transfer of Terror Suspects.\" The article quoted an U.S. diplomat saying, \"After September 11, these sorts of movements have been occurring all the time. It allows us to get information from terrorists in a way we can’t do on US soil.\" The article reports that \"Since Sept. 11, the US government has secretly transported dozens of people suspected of links to terrorists to countries other than the United States, bypassing extradition procedures and legal formalities, according to Western diplomats and intelligence sources.\" The article continues \"The suspects have been taken to countries, including Egypt and Jordan, whose intelligence services have close ties to the CIA and where they can be subjected to interrogation tactics—including torture and threats to families—that are illegal in the United States, the sources said. In some cases, US intelligence agents remain closely involved in the interrogation, the sources said.\"

Moreover, this is exactly the procedure US Immigration officials used in deporting Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen to Jordan and then on to Syria. The hapless Canadian was waiting for a connecting flight to Canada after returning from Switzerland when immigration officials seized him. He reported being beaten in Jordan and then taken to Syria where he endured ten months of torture.

The unconstitutional Patriotic Act made it possible for immigration authorities to deport Mr Arar. Furthermore, the act makes it possible for the US to take similar actions against US citizens. In fact, the act forfeits many of our freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. If authorities claim that a citizen is a terrorist or engaged in terrorist actions then the person has no right to a lawyer, no right to bail, no protection against unreasonable searches and can be held indefinitely without charges being filed.

Bush has followed the same path Hitler took. The Nazis first passed euthanasia laws before murdering the feebleminded. The passed the Nuremberg laws before persecuting the Jews. The Patriotic Act is America's Nuremberg law. It is only one example of many of steps the Bush administration has taken to avoid criminal charges. Another example is the Bush administration insistence that those held in Camp X-ray and Abu Ghraib prison are enemy combatant and not prisoners of war. The stark reality of such labeling is nothing more than a mere play on words. US law has already established that these captives are prisoners of war by case law.

The case establishing the status of \"civilian combatants,\"\" terrorists\" or whatever euphemism one wishes to use as prisoners of war comes from a case during the Civil War when a Confederate ship was seized. The sailors captured were taken to New York and were regarded, as the today's equivalent of terrorists since the US did not recognize the Confederate States as a country. The founder of Sullivan and Cromwell successfully defended the prisoners fixing their status as prisoners of war and saved them from hanging.

There are many examples of the Bush administration's collusion to avoid war criminal charges. Perhaps, the best example comes the Congress's passage of the Serviceman Protection Act introduced in congress by their cronies Tom Delay and Jesse Helms. The bill calls for an automatic invasion of the idyllic land of windmills and tulips. What raised the ire of the Bush administration against the stoic Dutch was simply Holland is home of The Hague and the World Court. While the bill pretends to protect US servicemen such as the privates charged with torture from a trial before the World Court, the bill is merely protection for administration officials. The World Court does not prosecute cases against military personnel when their country does. Thus those reservists charged with torture have nothing to fear from the World Court as long as the US brings them to trial which seems assured. The real protection from the bill extends to protecting cabinet level officials and the president and vice president.

Furthermore, the Bush administration has bullied other countries into withdrawing their support for the World Court by using foreign aid as a club.

This leaves us with what the proper course of action should be. The low ranking escape goats have already said the CIA and even a civilian contractor ordered them to soften up the prisoners. In fact, Taguba's report named the civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International. The report recommended the army fire and reprimand him. While the Nuremberg trials clearly established following orders is no defense for committing war crimes there is some validity to the claim at the lowest level of the command chain. Certainly they should be held accountable and sentenced accordingly.

However, the real war criminals lie at the top of command chain at the cabinet level and above. When the President, the Vice President and cabinet secretaries recommend committing war crimes it is an impeachable offense. Congress should be working posthaste in preparing the articles of impeachment against all of those involved including Bush and Cheney. Moreover, impeachment is not sufficient alone. They need to face serious charges of war crimes. The Allies made a serious mistake in Nuremberg in not hanging enough high-ranking Nazis. Let's not repeat the mistake.

For more on the Bush Nazi Connection go to

http:\/\/www.spiritone.com\/~gdy52150\/noon.html<\/a>



Please check my site on a regular basis for the followup article on the links between the Bush family, their network of loyalist criminals, the intrigue of the Nazi war criminals imported after WW2 to staff the psychological warfare operations of the intelligence agencies and the common racist eugenics theology that was funded by the Bush\/Harrimanenterprise. It is not without coincidence that this White House and its heavily influenced PNAC agenda are linked. This link is the genome specific bioweapons called for in policy papers published by the PNAC members. That is racial warfare and we all need to be well educated to the dark path these men have chosen.

<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"http:\/\/www.spiritone.com\/~gdy52150\/torture.htm","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"While the shutter captured the gruesome horror in graphic detail, it missed capturing the full scope of the incident, as did CBS. This was not an isolated incident. It was not the result of a few rogues. Rather this incident was the result of careful long-term planning. In fact Bush and every other high official of this administration approved of the torture and we have their own words on that","numcomment":41,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2004\/05\/109929.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":109937,"heading":"Bad news for ya, Glen","article":"Appalling, shocking, repulsive are some of the words used to describe the pictures taken by U.S. soldiers torturing Iraqis. \r\n\r\n-------Nothing seen so far has rivaled what those fucking animals did to the bodies of four Americans. I don't know why Bush hasn't already NUKED that fallushit city of infidels into a moon-crater.\r\n\r\n-------Believe you me, hippie, most Americans--despite these rediculous for-show hearings---are only too delighted to see shitraqis who, before being captured were enemy combatants, humiliated like the human shit they are.\r\n\r\n-----The always-jealous-of-the-USA world at large can go fuck itself . Fuck the UN too. These "moral" UN savages who torture and kill their own DARE raise a voice to the US over the misconduct of a handful of US soldiers (who WILL be disciplined)?\r\n\r\n-----Are you the writer of Hi & Lois? Because you are making me laff. \r\n","author":"fde florist","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 07:05:39","modified":"2004-05-11 07:05:39","fileurl":""},{"id":109948,"heading":"love and bait","article":">most Americans--despite these rediculous for-show hearings---are only too delighted to see shitraqis who, before being captured were enemy combatants, humiliated like the human shit they are. \r\n\r\nThank god (or any other deity of your choice) that this is not the case. The heart lives on, and people are still people wherever you go. Most Americans still have the insight to be appalled when a PERSON commits a deplorable act, regardless of race or nationality.\r\n\r\nHalf of the hate-bait that gets posted is obviously not what the person really believes (mostly speaking for the one- and two-line posters who change their handle every day). \r\n\r\nThis forum is totally infested. Sad thing.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 12:21:37","modified":"2004-05-11 12:21:37","fileurl":""},{"id":109949,"heading":"fresca","article":""This forum is totally infested. Sad thing."\r\n\r\nTrue. From both sides.\r\n\r\nAnd I admit that I've done my share of baiting and shock value posts.\r\n\r\nBelieve it or not, I first came here to actually converse with people who had a different viewpoint. However, I hadn't counted on so many lunatic conspiracy theorists and knee jerk anti American party liners, unwilling to see anything other than the prescribed Chomsky imagined view of things.\r\n\r\nEventually, you give up and simply start mocking.\r\n\r\nSad but true.","author":"true","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 13:01:07","modified":"2004-05-11 13:01:07","fileurl":""},{"id":109961,"heading":"fde florist","article":"Let me let you in on something, florist baby: dead bodies cannot be tortured. No matter what was done to the corpses, they didn't feel a thing. The mercenaries who were ambushed probably died a quicker and more merciful death that the thousands of Iraqis, including children, who have died from burns or radiation sickness.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 18:01:18","modified":"2004-05-11 18:01:18","fileurl":""},{"id":109977,"heading":"fresca - please think about this","article":"Fresca:\r\n\r\nI like Chomsky. He generally has a superb command of facts that make pro-American-interventionism types squirm in their seats; even if they convince the New York Times to ignore a story or give it a one-paragraph mention in the back pages, there is Chomsky, saying "would you rather that the American public read the story in the news and trusted the media, or found out from someone like me later, and knew that the media can be rented?" \r\n\r\nAs for your intent, I get a bit more critical analysis out of some of your posts. On the other hand, it is too often polarized against people who try espouse democracy and human rights, and criticize US policy where it is lacking in these respects. You rarely seem to differentiate anti-American from anti-Interventionist, anti-Corporate-lobby, anti-brutality, etc. \r\n\r\nYou are interesting to have around sometimes, but most of the time you play the wrong kind of devil's advocate. In my book, people who play devil's advocate fall between two extremes: those who incite a strong reaction which they believe will promote some kind of resolution in the long run, and those who do so because they get something out of causing conflict. Granted, there's a fine line, and anyone who knows one side of the devil's advocate archetype also knows the appeal of the other. I just see you, a person who appears insightful in many ways, shirking the constructive side and wasting people's time, including your own. You forward arguments meant to polarize and inflame, and in the process, you end up being more polarized and less lucid than you could be. \r\n\r\nIf you see a fallacy behind certain "liberal ideas," there are ways to point them out without being as offensive as you possibly can to "liberal" sensibilities. In case you hadn't noticed, liberals are more concerned with fighting for civil liberties in the homeland and abroad. If you polarize too far, you will end up being like the other baiters here who say things like "people with stupid liberal views not only diserve no rights, they should be beaten and flogged for being so stupid. Just like those stupid ungrateful Iraqis." It's your choice. \r\n\r\nI'm not saying that you should not have your own opinions, Fresca; hell, I am not a liberal. The word itself raises my hackles, because it implies that there is one "correct" consensus on everything under the sun, which is a fascist mindset. I am a Constitutionalist, as much as anything. People who are proud to be Americans, dem or reb, lib or con, should not forget the single greatest pillar of this nation's glory.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 22:31:50","modified":"2004-05-11 22:31:50","fileurl":""},{"id":109981,"heading":"then why stick around","article":"fresca - If you were looking for people who agree with you, and don't engage in your hobby for honing your hate-filled anger, why didn't you go to a site that's more moderate (or in your case, way more conservative). You've been here, almost daily, for at least one year.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 22:48:28","modified":"2004-05-11 22:48:28","fileurl":""},{"id":109983,"heading":"Reminder","article":"\r\n\r\n***** Those animals made to pose in liberal-approved Mapplethorpe scenarios are NOT Iraqi Army personnel (the Iraqi Army surrendered). They are dangerous criminals and terrorists, rogues who know things about who will attack our troops and when. That's why they're locked up where they are.\r\n\r\n***** This whole fiasco has been politicized from Day One by a gaggle of lefty sociopaths who will NEVER admit Bush has done anything right. Not a single assclown in Congress screaming for Rumsfeld's impeachment gave two shits about impeaching or firing gummint thugs over Waco.\r\n\r\nHalf of the hate-bait that gets posted is obviously not what the person really believes (mostly speaking for the one- and two-line posters who change their handle every day). \r\n\r\nThis forum is totally infested. Sad thing.\r\n\r\n**** Worried about sincerity? Don't. If I could hit CTRL-ALT-DEL from home and wipe out fallujah, I would.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"fde florist","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 22:54:15","modified":"2004-05-11 22:54:15","fileurl":""},{"id":109984,"heading":"Wowzers","article":"fde florist you're all over the place there.\r\nYou are PO'ed at WACO but you want to 'delete' another bunch of men wemen and children?\r\n\r\nGot yourself in a moral cusp there don't you?","author":"Changling","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 23:30:04","modified":"2004-05-11 23:30:04","fileurl":""},{"id":109986,"heading":"Ed. Note","article":""let me let you in on something, florist baby: dead bodies cannot be tortured. No matter what was done to the corpses, they didn't feel a thing. "\r\n

\r\n-----what a pitiful apologist excuse for subhuman behavior.\r\n

\r\nThe mercenaries who were ambushed probably died a quicker and more merciful death that the thousands of Iraqis, including children, who have died from burns or radiation sickness.

\r\n\r\nEd. Note---Thousands? Thousands more died in Saddam's human shredder. Here's some math for you. One American life is worth over 500,000 shitraqi lives.<\/I>\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"fde florist","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-11 23:40:57","modified":"2004-05-11 23:40:57","fileurl":""},{"id":109987,"heading":"unqualified","article":"(Nice catch, changling)\r\n\r\nIncidentally, I'm still pissed about Waco. Nice try at unfounded extrapolation, though.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-11 23:42:56","modified":"2004-05-11 23:42:56","fileurl":""},{"id":109989,"heading":"Get sane, fde","article":"what are you talking about?\r\n>>Thousands more died in Saddam's human shredder<<\r\nPulling numbers out of the air to fill your unfounded shredder.\r\nSome news items or links please. Sounds like more incubators babies and fools to fill the ranks of idiots.\r\nMore lies.","author":"Changling","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 00:04:22","modified":"2004-05-12 00:04:22","fileurl":""},{"id":109990,"heading":"later, dickweeds","article":"fde florist you're all over the place there. \r\nYou are PO'ed at WACO but you want to 'delete' another bunch of men wemen and children? \r\n\r\n---pissing on that cherished cornerstone of liberal doctrine: hyposcrisy.\r\n\r\n---Got yourself in a moral cusp there don't you?\r\n\r\nBranch Davidians (Americans, not shitraqi outlaws) didn't murder anyone before democrap "leadership" burned them alive. sandnigger savages are a whole 'nother ball of sand.\r\n\r\n----none of your many conservative masters who deign to visit this stoogefest of a Soros-funded site has any hope of 'converting' anyone to common sense. you're too far gone for that. \r\n\r\ninstead, it's simply FUN to blast moon-sized craters in anarcho-hippie rhetoric. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"fde florist","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2004-05-12 00:12:22","modified":"2005-08-15 02:56:07","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/go_sit_in_the_corner.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/go_sit_in_the_corner.jpg"}},{"id":109993,"heading":"on LA IMC predators","article":"These recurring statements about Iraqis' lives being worthless seem a bait--oops, I mean a bit--contrived. There is no way to address such a statement with facts or policies, because it is pure blind ignorance, yet if you believe in equality, such unabashed bigotry compels a response. \r\n\r\nAs you all may have noticed, some of the regulars at LA IMC don't keep their underlying message consistent from one post to the next. On the other hand, maybe that is the whole point: to insinuate oneself as an ephemeral "enemy" of people on the forum. Case in point: criticize Saddam's humanitarian abuses one minute, and say that Pinochet is an all right guy the next. I could go on with examples, but I have been told that I get carried away (I don't believe a word of it), and I'm sure that people here know what I'm talking about. They isolate our most hopeful ideals for the future, and then say that a "majority" of Americans find those ideals laughable. \r\n\r\nThe time-wasters keep saying "Saddam bad, look what him do to poor good Iraqis, we save them, so all is good" then come back with "Them bad Iraqis, them give big brother USA no respect," and then "ok, so we save Iraqis then sodomize and torture them, but them still bad, USA still good." All this interspersed with really hate-fringe shit like "we should nuke the whole fucking Arab world and usher in a new dark age of American dominion." \r\n\r\nThey are predators; their whole agenda is to frustrate us so that we lose clarity. They aren't even interested in the finer points of conservative ideology, which you can find on other forums where right-wingers and left-wingers tussle. This is why their posts contain so much bigotry and liberal-bashing, and so little NEWS.\r\n\r\n"They" will keep following these formulaic bait strategies. They will probably keep spamming the "recent comments" page long after I get bored with this stint. So, while you're all stuck with these lizards, take a minute now and again to call them out on exactly what they are out to accomplish. It helps to know the enemy. Oh, one more thing about folks with the predator's MO: when they help you to learn something, it makes them angry and afraid. Reciprocity is not their way. ","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 00:54:13","modified":"2004-05-12 00:54:13","fileurl":""},{"id":109994,"heading":"fresca","article":"First of all...lucius..thanks for the post and I will continue to consider it....I don't have the time now to respond properly and give it the attention it deserves.\r\n\r\nRational....the reason i stay is because it's boring to hang out where everyone agrees with you.","author":"rational and lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 01:34:04","modified":"2004-05-12 01:34:04","fileurl":""},{"id":109995,"heading":"Fresca's padded cell has mirrors.","article":".the reason i stay is because it's boring to hang out where everyone agrees with you.","author":"The Dr.","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 01:54:23","modified":"2004-05-12 01:54:23","fileurl":""},{"id":110002,"heading":"IMC for you-n-me","article":"These recurring statements about Iraqis' lives being worthless seem a bait--oops, I mean a bit--contrived. There is no way to address such a statement with facts or policies, because it is pure blind ignorance, yet if you believe in equality, such unabashed bigotry compels a response. <\/I>

\r\nAh, another liberal awarding himself the Good Guy Badge (\u201cI\u2019m free of prejudice\u201d) while casting aspersions at his enemies (\u201cThey are bigots\u201d). It\u2019s just not that black and white a world. The same human being that is glad for Iraqi\u2019s rebuilding schools one day is equally capable the next day of wishing every last one of them into ashes when some criminal coward homicide bombs American soldiers. The Middle East is a fucked-up, backwards region of the world, and the world is now too small to suffer hordes of quasi-religious savages running amok in a civilized Iraq OR New York. Other may couch the obvious in more flowery phrases or try to "understand" evil. I don't.

\r\nAs you all may have noticed, some of the regulars at LA IMC don't keep their underlying message consistent from one post to the next. On the other hand, maybe that is the whole point: to insinuate oneself as an ephemeral "enemy" of people on the forum. Case in point: criticize Saddam's humanitarian abuses one minute, and say that Pinochet is an all right guy the next. I could go on with examples, but I have been told that I get carried away (I don't believe a word of it), and I'm sure that people here know what I'm talking about. They isolate our most hopeful ideals for the future, and then say that a "majority" of Americans find those ideals laughable. <\/I>

\r\nEven among the 4 or 5 competitors (a more accurate term than \u201cpredator\u201d) from both factions there are a variety of opinions. The lefties include socialists, communists and anarchists, with each group believing their way is the best. All 3 philosophies operate under the assumption that man left in his \u201cnatural\u201d state and free of \u201cforced greed\u201d and capitalism will automatically Do The Right Thing. Among us righties, views are equally varied. Maximum freedom (which means that in some circles, \u201cequality\u201d will simply not be possible) and maximum human potential, combined with law & order that punishes criminals and shuns aberrant behavior, are the standards (I\u2019ve left this description deliberately vague). \r\n

Strangely, there even occur the occasional crossroads where IMC opinions meet (again, only among some): ending Drug Prohibition, ending gummint welfare (corporate or public but rarely both) and atheism.

\r\nThe time-wasters keep saying "Saddam bad, look what him do to poor good Iraqis, we save them, so all is good" then come back with "Them bad Iraqis, them give big brother USA no respect," and then "ok, so we save Iraqis then sodomize and torture them, but them still bad, USA still good." All this interspersed with really hate-fringe shit like "we should nuke the whole fucking Arab world and usher in a new dark age of American dominion."<\/I>

\r\n Think of the scope of your accusation and it becomes laughable. There are now IndyMierda (sorry) internet cells in every country, heavily funded by limousine liberals. When douchebag rene shitzalez published his piss-poor rant against Pat Tillman, IMC was thrust into the limelight and instantly passed over by many more laser scopes.
\r\n You\u2019re giving us, the 4 or 5 libertarian\/conservatives dropping science here, WAY too much credit for essentially expressing differing viewpoints. Yes, there are occasional profane outbursts from both sides when tempers flare, but they are surprisingly rare.

\r\nThey are predators; their whole agenda is to frustrate us so that we lose clarity. They aren't even interested in the finer points of conservative ideology, which you can find on other forums where right-wingers and left-wingers tussle. This is why their posts contain so much bigotry and liberal-bashing, and so little NEWS.<\/I>

\r\n\u201cNEWS\u201d from the Socialist Worker and other publications of this ilk are not \u201cNEWS\u201d in the same sense as journalism. Neither are calls to marches.

\r\n"They" will keep following these formulaic bait strategies. They will probably keep spamming the "recent comments" page long after I get bored with this stint. So, while you're all stuck with these lizards, take a minute now and again to call them out on exactly what they are out to accomplish. It helps to know the enemy. Oh, one more thing about folks with the predator's MO: when they help you to learn something, it makes them angry and afraid. Reciprocity is not their way.<\/I>

\r\nAfter 40 years of owning the Big 3 networks, the arch-liberal media triopoly is over; the left has been caught pants-down by the internet age. They're not used to being hit back.
\r\nSpeaking only for myself: I visit this site to stay sharp and to \u201cknow my enemy.\u201d Though not a Christian, I go where the sinners are. Enjoy your flight.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-12 04:24:40","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:43","fileurl":""},{"id":110018,"heading":"not just baiting","article":"Fresca and his pals (or pal) are not just baiting when they write of subhuman groups of people or nuking some city or country. They may enjoy the outrage these remarks provoke, but that does not change the fact - that they actually believe this stuff.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 13:04:06","modified":"2004-05-12 13:04:06","fileurl":""},{"id":110020,"heading":"Another note","article":"There may even be a game going on that produces shit posts to allow a 'good guy' to respond so another spin can be brought forth as a creditable rebuttal.\r\nThere are always new games to deal with. This is an information hungry attack. \r\nAnd it isn't going to stop.\r\nAnd the arrogant fathead known as Texas Walker can stuff his biased opinions, held so dear, up his fat wrinkled ass.\r\nI wouldn't waste time on these prolific typing heads.\r\nLet them dance for us as it pisses them off no end.\r\nBoth sides can play the same war and their side, the reactionary right, has to use lies and bluster while we can use links. references and moral human common sense. We are the many. They are the few.\r\n","author":"Proctected witness.","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 13:31:51","modified":"2004-05-12 13:31:51","fileurl":""},{"id":110022,"heading":"godd job defending unabashed bigots","article":">Ah, another liberal awarding himself the Good Guy Badge (\u201cI\u2019m free of prejudice\u201d) while casting aspersions at his enemies (\u201cThey are bigots\u201d). \r\n\r\nCalling Iraqis "sand niggers," "shitstains," "shitraqis," "stupid animals" et. al, categorically makes one a bigot--to say nothing of assertions that we should nuke them and that their lives are nearly worthless anyway. Your defense is a good one when it comes to addressing a lot of people's anger toward the people of Iraq. I was not just talking about anger, but a Naziesque level of dehumanization. If you think that all of the anti-liberal voices on this site are making constructive commentary, I'll gladly take a minute to assemble a "best of." Also, for what it's worth, I am aware that some of the more leftist posts here don't amount to more than "you neocons are all the same..." though, notice that the libs don't usually tack on an ethnic slur for good measure. Do you seriously think that conservatives are well represented by the race-baiting clowns who come around here? \r\n\r\nAs for whether these folks are predators or competitors, I am taking about people in a one-way exchange, with no interest in dialogue. People have said, in so many words, that they assume any opinion that they deem leftist is worthless, and that they come here solely to piss people off and pat other conservatives on the back when they do the same. They sit back and toss out the most malicious comments they can think of, and then laugh when someone cares enough to respond. They are preying on conflict, not participating in discussions. I haven't read much of you, Walker, but based on your message I don't put you in this category. You are making real points, and while I don't agree with every single one, I would take a post like yours over these inane bait tactics any day. \r\n\r\nIf everyone here used more plain English than swears, insults, and labels, I wouldn't have written the previous post. However, that would require people to translate their rhetoric into direct statements, which isn't nearly as fun for those who thrive on hate. To translate some of the bait posts here, you would get back "the US should rule the world with an iron fist," "fuck international collaboration," "dissidents in America should be subjected to whatever brutality the state sees fit," "I don't care if politicians lie, as long as it is for a good reason" (which we can't really tell because now we don't know if they're lying or not when they explain themselves), and "people in the Middle East are less than human." How do you make a case for these ideas, without revealing yourself to be a pathetically small minority in a world that has grown more tolerant and cooperative?","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 13:52:37","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:43","fileurl":""},{"id":110030,"heading":"godd job","article":"Since we have this moment together I would surely like to know what makes a 'good' guy. Or a clever guy or a phony guy. This is my personal belief.\r\nIf you have a feeling of social superiority or opinions based on feelings of class superiority you are a bad guy.\r\n","author":"I know it is.","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 15:50:22","modified":"2004-05-12 15:50:22","fileurl":""},{"id":110034,"heading":"Walker again","article":""There may even be a game going on that produces shit posts to allow a 'good guy' to respond so another spin can be brought forth as a creditable rebuttal. \r\nThere are always new games to deal with. This is an information hungry attack. \r\nAnd it isn't going to stop." \r\n\r\n>>> You've got that right, buddy. It's NOT going to stop until the liberal menace is reduced to a handful of trotsky goateed cretins on the corner.\r\n\r\nAnd the arrogant fathead known as Texas Walker can stuff his biased opinions, held so dear, up his fat wrinkled ass. \r\n\r\n>>> Biased opinions." As opposed to? No need to condemn me, to my fat-assed POV, you're already intellectual write-offs. I'm here to let you know you WILL be opposed.\r\n\r\nI wouldn't waste time on these prolific typing heads. \r\nLet them dance for us as it pisses them off no end. \r\n\r\n>>>> A ha ha ha. Youv'e got it backwards. You're the ones who end up looking foolish. All I do is hold up a mirror to your tard dance.\r\n\r\nBoth sides can play the same war and their side, the reactionary right, has to use lies and bluster while we can use links. references and moral human common sense. We are the many. They are the few. \r\n\r\n>>>> You are the few, but you're only stronger in that you have the power of fact-free tantrums and rhetoric, while the Right has to actually use factual evidence to illuminate what should be obvious.\r\n\r\nCatch you on the flip, gomer. Bring a lunch.\r\n\r\n","author":"exclusive for Protected Shitness","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 17:22:29","modified":"2004-05-12 17:22:29","fileurl":""},{"id":110039,"heading":""sandniggers"","article":"Way to go, KOBE DUKE. Spoken like the racist filth that you are.","author":"anti-KOBE","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 18:15:18","modified":"2004-05-12 18:15:18","fileurl":""},{"id":110040,"heading":"and no more of this","article":"Calling Iraqis "sand niggers," "shitstains," "shitraqis," "stupid animals" et. al, categorically makes one a bigot--to say nothing of assertions that we should nuke them and that their lives are nearly worthless anyway. Your defense is a good one when it comes to addressing a lot of people's anger toward the people of Iraq. I was not just talking about anger, but a Naziesque level of dehumanization. If you think that all of the anti-liberal voices on this site are making constructive commentary, I'll gladly take a minute to assemble a "best of." \r\n\r\n>>>> I can only speak for myself, not other anti-liberals. Personally, it's more of a drain to hide my anger versuse letting the expletives fly at iraqi police state thug SUBHUMANS who, after decades of murdering their own people, take up arms against US troops. War is not a game, and if the Arab death wish is really to be gloriously killed to the last towel rather than surrender (unless you\u2019re saddam) then I\u2019d rather they be wiped out than Americans.\r\n\r\n>>>> This site is notorious for celebrating American casualties of war and other pro-terrorist rhetoric. It's not realistic to think you can post bush=hipler \r\n \r\n>>>> There are 'many' Arabs of goodwill, but they\u2019re awfully hard to find. Compare the Amerrican Nisei of WW2 \u2013who fought harder against the Japanese than any \u201cwhite\u201d unit---to any possible contingent of Arab-Americans today. I see no reason to trust these people truly support American principles though they breathe American air and walk on American soil. And they have given NO indication of said support either.\r\n\r\nAlso, for what it's worth, I am aware that some of the more leftist posts here don't amount to more than "you neocons are all the same..." though, notice that the libs don't usually tack on an ethnic slur for good measure. Do you seriously think that conservatives are well represented by the race-baiting clowns who come around here? \r\n\r\n>>>> Liberal prejudice is more subtle but it\u2019s there just as strongly. Liberals hate or dislike, in no particular order: whites, the wealthy, men, gun-owners, Christians, capitalists and business. A certain faction despises Jews, but that's to be expected. This is a generalization, though accurate. \r\n\r\nAs for whether these folks are predators or competitors, I am taking about people in a one-way exchange, with no interest in dialogue. People have said, in so many words, that they assume any opinion that they deem leftist is worthless, and that they come here solely to piss people off and pat other conservatives on the back when they do the same. They sit back and toss out the most malicious comments they can think of, and then laugh when someone cares enough to respond. They are preying on conflict, not participating in discussions. I haven't read much of you, Walker, but based on your message I don't put you in this category. You are making real points, and while I don't agree with every single one, I would take a post like yours over these inane bait tactics any day. \r\n\r\n>>>> It\u2019s tempting to push buttons, no doubt, versus in depth debate. I tend to believe that anyone with an inquiring mind that starts to explore the issues will start to move from left to center, then perhaps on to the right. By no means does this mean that righties are geniuses, as you well know many are ignorant fools. I\u2019m sure some left-winger even now is engraving an \u2018Ignorant Fool\u2019 trophy especially for me, which is all well and good.\r\n\r\nIf everyone here used more plain English than swears, insults, and labels, I wouldn't have written the previous post. However, that would require people to translate their rhetoric into direct statements, which isn't nearly as fun for those who thrive on hate. To translate some of the bait posts here, you would get back "the US should rule the world with an iron fist," "fuck international collaboration," "dissidents in America should be subjected to whatever brutality the state sees fit," "I don't care if politicians lie, as long as it is for a good reason" (which we can't really tell because now we don't know if they're lying or not when they explain themselves), and "people in the Middle East are less than human." How do you make a case for these ideas, without revealing yourself to be a pathetically small minority in a world that has grown more tolerant and cooperative?\r\n\r\n>>>> I don\u2019t think that tolerance and cooperativeness have necessarily grown in the world, human nature being what it is. There is progress, but if it doesn't exactly fit the name brand mold we want, we deem it a failure, and that is a common problem on both sides.\r\n\r\n>>>> Lucius, when the day is done, this is still just a message board. I hope no one on any side loses sleep over it. \r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2004-05-12 18:16:11","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:43","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/arguin__...jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/arguin__...jpg"}},{"id":110051,"heading":"Walker, Your right","article":"Your right butt cheek is more intelligent than yourself. Nice dance BTW, moneky fathead. Again?","author":"Dan","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 19:47:46","modified":"2004-05-12 19:47:46","fileurl":""},{"id":110053,"heading":"hippies (still) smell","article":"Your right butt cheek is more intelligent than yourself. Nice dance BTW, moneky fathead. Again?\r\n\r\n>>> Shave your goatee, bitch. It tickles my balls.","author":"WTP","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 19:57:41","modified":"2004-05-12 19:57:41","fileurl":""},{"id":110056,"heading":"So Walker is Gay","article":"Maybe you need a little dance to lift your hurt feelings.","author":"Knew it","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 20:04:42","modified":"2004-05-12 20:04:42","fileurl":""},{"id":110058,"heading":"Not as Gay as Some","article":"Your comebacks merely prove that interweb time needs to be restricted in middle schools. \r\n\r\n","author":"WTP","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 20:17:00","modified":"2004-05-12 20:17:00","fileurl":""},{"id":110059,"heading":"But you're still gay","article":"And middle school come backs are fine for pre-school blitherings like your dick twitching self promotions. You sound like an idiot. Carry on. \r\n","author":"I knew it","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 20:28:17","modified":"2004-05-12 20:28:17","fileurl":""},{"id":110061,"heading":"return to sender","article":"No wonder<\/I> you're the President and sole L33T member of the Not-Funny Diarrhea Club.

\r\n\r\nPut on your special helmet and grab your knapsack, Short Bus. Computer time is over for you.","author":"WTP","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-12 20:40:26","modified":"2004-05-12 20:40:26","fileurl":""},{"id":110125,"heading":"Another little Nazi wantabe","article":"Why lookie here we got another little damn Nazi that wants to start a race war.\r\n\r\nThe problem with such fuckhead is they are either trailer park trash or they sit in corporate board rooms--either way they are about as useless as tits on a boar pig. \r\n\r\nOk fuckhead you support this war so why ain'tcha over there fighting it? \r\n\r\nJust another repuiblican chickenhawk, all mouth, no brains, no guts.\r\n\r\nIf you want to support a war little Nazi then you had best be willingly to fight for it.","author":"gdy","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-13 13:13:55","modified":"2004-05-13 13:13:55","fileurl":""},{"id":110126,"heading":"The number is on your ticket, slapnuts","article":"Why lookie here we got another little damn Nazi that wants to start a race war. \r\n\r\n^^^^ don't think so, pillowbiter, only shit-o-crats want the races at war. makes it easier to seize power. by the way, 3 points will be deducted for the unoriginal tired "nazi" accusation. \r\n\r\nThe problem with such fuckhead is they are either trailer park trash or they sit in corporate board rooms--either way they are about as useless as tits on a boar pig. \r\n\r\n^^^^ not as useless as yout trite cliches and berkeley-fed worldviews.\r\n\r\nOk fuckhead you support this war so why ain'tcha over there fighting it? \r\n\r\n^^^^ for the same reason you give a lot of lip service about helping the poor but do nothing for them, trying to live off of someone else's dime in their name.\r\n\r\nJust another repuiblican chickenhawk, all mouth, no brains, no guts. \r\n\r\n^^^^ I'm still waiting for some originality DAN. Get your nose out of that protestor's hymnal. \r\n\r\nIf you want to support a war little Nazi then you had best be willingly to fight for it.\r\n\r\n^^^^ Oh I most certainly do, asswipe. You worthless, shitbag liberals are the American branch of al gayda and I do everything possible to make sure you'll NEVER have power in America again. \r\n\r\nRemind me to thank Nader, slapnuts. \r\n","author":"Dan's Massa","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-13 13:27:28","modified":"2004-05-13 13:27:28","fileurl":""},{"id":110133,"heading":"Which is worse?","article":"Holding a severed head up to a camera, or the US media treating the bombing of Baghdad like it was a fun video game in 1992 and 2003, showing what were supposedly "precision" missle and bomb hits and spreading fires, without dwelling on the fact that there were men, women and children burning to death in those very same fires? \r\n By the way, I don't support the execution of hostages to prevent the mistreatment of pows held by the enemy. I think it is barbaric and should never be practiced. But before you start sighing over the moral supremecy of "the West" remember that executing hostages (pows or captured spies) has by no means been unknown in the United States - hostages were executed during the Revolutionary War as a warning to the British not to mistreat American prisoners, and Axis spies or saboteurs caught out of uniform in the US during World War II were also executed. That is how the Iraqis undoubtedly looked upon the fellow who was murdered.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-13 14:27:28","modified":"2004-05-13 14:27:28","fileurl":""},{"id":110150,"heading":"stinking gutless chickenhawks","article":"Didcha ever note in this thread that the only ones supporting Bush's war fer oil are the stinking gutless chickenhawks.\r\n\r\nThey're all mouth when its someone else that has to die.\r\n\r\nOf course tthey fit right in with the draft dodging idiot chief and mad dog Cheney.\r\n\r\nFunny how a gutless scumbag like Bush who went AWOL likes to think he's a war president.\r\n\r\nHe needs to face an international tribunal for war crimes along with the rest of his top honchos and when the trial is over hang em all.\r\n\r\nSHit there is no need to buya new rope I got one around here thats been dragged through the mud and dirt and plenty of cow shit that will work just fine.\r\n","author":"gdy","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-13 17:22:14","modified":"2004-05-13 17:22:14","fileurl":""},{"id":110157,"heading":"liberals hate whites, the wealthy, men, gun-owners, Christians, capitalists, Jews","article":">Liberal prejudice is more subtle but it’s there just as strongly. Liberals hate or dislike, in no particular order: whites, the wealthy, men, gun-owners, Christians, capitalists and business. A certain faction despises Jews, but that's to be expected. This is a generalization, though accurate. \r\n___\r\nA couple minor amendments to the above statement would make it almost accurate. At the middle of the liberal bell curve (which IS a bell curve, with a broad range of opinions, not the clone army some people make it out to be), liberals hate:\r\n\r\n1. Rich white men who fight for a global future that is dominated by other rich white men. \r\n\r\n2. The wealthy people who fight for corporations' right to influence government, and want a future where corporations essentially ARE the government, on a global scale.\r\n\r\n3. Men..? This is just silly. About half of the liberals out there ARE men. See #1.\r\n\r\n4. Gun-owners who believe that there should be no federal control over a) handgun sales, and b) guns that can easily be jury-rigged into automatic weapons. I would add, too, that there was less consensus on this among liberals than NRA right-wingers rant about. Many liberals try to be both Constitutionalist and anti-violence, which is a tricky moral bind. Thus, the push for targeted weapons control, as a function of which types of weapons cause the most per capita civilian violence.\r\n\r\n5. Christians who believe that their religion, and ONLY their religion, should dictate the course of the US government. Again, like gun ownership, there are so many Christians in the world, and denominations thereof, that there is not a single common ground on topics like the legality of abortion, or teaching Christianity in school. The Christians who didn't get the memo about the First Amendment are the ones who liberals tend to oppose. \r\n\r\n6. Capitalists and business. On this subject, there are a couple of common misconceptions among conservatives. One is that most liberals are anarchists, who want the world to revert to a stone-age model without government or technology. Another is that most liberals are communists, who want wealth to be evenly distributed among everyone. \r\n\r\nThe reality is, liberals in the center of the bell curve oppose a specific model of globalization, in which third-world peoples are economically subjugated to such a degree that they almost become a "slave class" to the West, corporate lobbies all but control government, and the news media is bought and sold to the highest bidder. \r\n\r\nBeing anti-power-elite is commonly confused with being Marxist or anti-capitalist, when it is really closer to the 19th century capitalist ideal in which anyone with enough initiative gets a fair chance at wealth. Liberals are distressed, for example, for the rapidly widening gap between the much lauded "richest 1%" of America and everyone else. Call them Anti-Power-Elitists, if you will. It is obviously not the same as Communism.\r\n\r\n7. As for Jews, a lot of liberals oppose the Israeli government--or at least, the factions of it that are bent on extending Israel's borders, have a whopping track record of humanitarian abuses, and flaunt their callousness for all the world to see because the US has historically ignored these breaches when it can, defended them when we had a rock to stand on, and lightly "chided" them for their worst abuses. I have already commented on the difference between criticizing the Israeli state and hating Jewish people. (There are quite a few liberal Jews who proudly share this consensus, to their credit.)","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-13 20:34:17","modified":"2004-05-13 20:34:17","fileurl":""},{"id":110181,"heading":"fresca","article":""7. As for Jews, a lot of liberals oppose the Israeli government--or at least, the factions of it that are bent on extending Israel's borders, have a whopping track record of humanitarian abuses, and flaunt their callousness for all the world to see because the US has historically ignored these breaches when it can, defended them when we had a rock to stand on, and lightly "chided" them for their worst abuses. I have already commented on the difference between criticizing the Israeli state and hating Jewish people. (There are quite a few liberal Jews who proudly share this consensus, to their credit.)"\r\n\r\nYou make a few good points, at least enough to show the danger of making overt generalizations like the original comment. Still, the original does truly sum up a very large portion of the left. There is alot of kneejerk condemnation of all things, white, Christian or Jewish (the seemingly "white" religions... there's simply the reality of the images of these two) male (especially by, liberal guilt suffering leftist males) and by extension, all the typical interests of males ie, guns, sports, etc.\r\n\r\nAgain you make some good points, but the original characterization is still pretty much fitting for most of the left, certainly the far left.\r\n\r\nAs for the difference between the left being anti-Israeli policy or anti-Jewish, the arguments simply don't wash.\r\n\r\nIt's quite easy to claim the former and deny the latter but it's full of holes and ultimately transparent. \r\n\r\nThe left is unabashedly anti-Israel. Okay fine. They claim it's due to Israeli abuses, land greed and so on. They claim to be concerned about the welfar and dignity of the poor oppressed "palestinians". That's all fine and good.\r\n\r\nThe same people will, without fail, NEVER mention or show the least bit of concern for the plight of any other arab people oppressed by other arabs. Never any concern for the landrights of any arab group fighting other arab groups. Never. Hell most of the people around here have never heard of the Hama massacre. And surely, Israel has a HELL of a long way to go before equalling that one.\r\n\r\nSo what's the difference. The only one that can possibly be broached ties together a few of the original leftist characterizations. Isreal is seen as a white, male, religious state with the added character defect of being supported by America (let's just forget that America also financially supports virtually all of Israels enemies to some extent or another as well).\r\n\r\nWhen the left starts being a little less discriminating over which "abuses" it gets worked up over and learns a bit more history to boot, then maybe they'll start to have a bit of credibility and won't be so obviously disingenius.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-14 01:35:01","modified":"2004-05-14 01:35:01","fileurl":""},{"id":110186,"heading":"fresca","article":">As for the difference between the left being anti-Israeli policy or anti-Jewish, the arguments simply don't wash. \r\n\r\nCan you name the people in The Left? Do you hobnob with them often? Saying that there is a single overarching "leftist" paradigm is the recourse of those who are more interested in feeling proud of their superior position than looking at all the diverging opinions. I can only go by what I have experienced, not what news peronalities like O'Hannity, Holmes, and O'Reilly tell me. Here is what I have learned: in my experience with people who call themselves Progressives, there is an underlying value of democracy, civil liberties, and the humane treatment of all people. There are many views on Israel, but a common perspective is that many of the politicians over there are not the paragons of Jewish identity. A central belief of the Jewish culture is remembering the lessons of persecution that their forebears have endured. Many chapters in the history of Israel smack of hypocrisy, as far as this goes.\r\n\r\n>The same people will, without fail, NEVER mention or show the least bit of concern for the plight of any other arab people oppressed by other arabs. Never any concern for the landrights of any arab group fighting other arab groups. \r\n \r\n{sic}\r\n\r\n>When the left starts being a little less discriminating over which "abuses" it gets worked up over and learns a bit more history to boot, then maybe they'll start to have a bit of credibility and won't be so obviously disingenius.\r\n\r\nSo, are you saying that the left shouldn't get concerned \r\nover humanitarian abuses? Not hitting all of the bases is a step up from sitting around and doing nothing.\r\n\r\nA key difference between Israel and a lot of the Middle East is that Israel makes a show of pandering to the UN, while many Arab nations don't have such public allusions. Not that they Israel has earned much esteem among the supposedly peace-loving nations of the world; their track record in recent decades shows a callous disregard for various international treaties on human rights. The USA is similar in this respect (I cannot mention the School of Americas enough times as an example of this), which may be why we keep "pardoning" Israel: we identify with them politically. \r\n\r\nBy way of the usual disclaimer, Palestinian terrorists are just as violent, and I don't condone their methods either. I get this. A lot more Palestinian civilians have died, though, so I don't see why the mass media news makes it look like Palestinians are attacking at random all the time but Israel only "retaliates." Why not just say "both sides are loose cannons," and officially condemn Israel, in front of the whole international community, when it dishes out senseless violence in equal measure? This would set a precedent: not for discrimination, but for culpability. What a lot of people complain about is the discrepancy between our government's stated values and our unwavering support for a nation that flaunts them (two countries, if we include ourselves).","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-14 02:40:18","modified":"2004-05-14 02:40:18","fileurl":""},{"id":110230,"heading":"fresca","article":"I'm KOBE HQ. \r\n\r\nPlease hack and spam my ignorant, Islamophobic website.\r\n\r\nwww.kobehq.com","author":"Hi!","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-14 17:39:45","modified":"2004-05-14 17:39:45","fileurl":""},{"id":110260,"heading":"sorry, wrong studio","article":"Meyer, fresca, et. al, you're obviously in the wrong place. If you thought this was the forum for people who give a shit about something, you may as well have landed on Plymouth Rock in 2004 looking for a thriving Native culture. Your speaking English and assembling coherent statements is confusing the new IMC regime. Please get with the program and start calling people neocon fascists or liberal dickwads. You will be welcomed with open arms by everyone in the the political Jerry-Springer-Fest.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-15 01:31:01","modified":"2004-05-15 01:31:01","fileurl":""},{"id":110367,"heading":"gyd gets....SERVIDO!","article":"Didcha ever note in this thread that the only ones supporting Bush's war fer oil are the stinking gutless chickenhawks. \r\n\r\nThey're all mouth when its someone else that has to die. \r\n\r\nDID YOU EVER NOTICE HOW EVERYONE WANTS TO PUT OUT BUILDINGS ON FIRE, BUT ONLY A FEW PEOPLE ARE **ACTUAL** FIREFIGHTERS AND THE REST JUST "SUPPORT" THEM? WHAT PUSSIES.\r\n\r\nOf course tthey fit right in with the draft dodging idiot chief and mad dog Cheney. \r\n\r\nOF COURSE, THEY FIT RIGHT IN WITH CLINTON, "STUDYING" OVER IN RUSSIA DURING VIET NAM AND KERRY, WHO GOT A PURPLE HEART FOR ESSENTIALLY NICKING HIMSELF WHILE SHAVING. \r\n\r\nFunny how a gutless scumbag like Bush who went AWOL likes to think he's a war president. \r\n\r\nWE KNOW WHAT A "NON-WAR" PRESIDENT LOOKS LIKE. IT'S DRAFT DODGER CLINTON AND THE 'WARS' WERE BOSNIA AND SOMALIA, TOTAL CLUSTERFUCKS. STUPID LIBERAL, EAT YOUR CHEESE.\r\n\r\nHe needs to face an international tribunal for war crimes along with the rest of his top honchos and when the trial is over hang em all. \r\n\r\nMORE 'REASON' FROM THE LEFT. WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE SANDNI%%ERS WHO MURDERED NICK BERG PRESIDE OVER THE TRIBUNAL, DICKHEAD?\r\n\r\nShit there is no need to buya new rope I got one around here thats been dragged through the mud and dirt and plenty of cow shit that will work just fine. \r\n\r\nKEEP THAT ROPE FOR YOUR GOATS, QUEE-YER. \r\n\r\nHOPE YOU ENJOYED BEING SERVED AS MUCH WE DID SERVING YOU, SLAPNUTS.\r\n","author":"easy to do","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2004-05-16 19:04:29","modified":"2005-08-15 02:56:08","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/ponchtruth.jpgs0trvi.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/ponchtruth.jpgs0trvi.jpg"}},{"id":110368,"heading":"serve me, easy","article":"can you PLEASE post some more than this one shot?\r\nVariety, man, variety. Since you surly have more, please share. We gays should support each other's fetishes. Thank you.","author":"Walker Texas Plumber","parent_id":109929,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-16 19:20:26","modified":"2004-05-16 19:20:26","fileurl":""}]}