{"article":{"id":109376,"heading":"help local activist","author":"oscar","created":"2004-05-04 02:31:14","modified":"2004-06-14 19:14:35","last_modified":"Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:14:35","article":"\n

I NEED NEW AND CREATIVE WAYS FOR THE PEACE MOVEMENT TO GET OUT TO THE PUBLIC.aND THIS WOULD BE PEOPLE IN ART,MUSIC OR ANYOTHER CREATIVE WAY TO PROTEST.PLEASE ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT! JUST LOOK AT IT LIKE IF IT WOULD BE FREE ADVERTISMENT! <\/p>\n<\/body><\/html>\n","contact":"b5387@NETZERO.NET","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"HELP LOCAL ACTIVIST FOR HIS FILM.","numcomment":88,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2004\/05\/109376.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":109429,"heading":"tips","article":"Tips for being a media maker.\r\n\r\n1. Learn to use upper and lower case letters.\r\n\r\n2. Learn a media making skill, and practice it.\r\n\r\n3. Go to events and meet people.\r\n\r\n4. Don't demand an audience, earn it.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-04 19:11:00","modified":"2004-05-04 19:11:00","fileurl":""},{"id":109726,"heading":"tips","article":"\r\nTips for 'more rational':\r\n\r\n1. learn to treat others as equals.\r\n\r\n","author":"normal person","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-08 09:19:06","modified":"2004-05-08 09:19:06","fileurl":""},{"id":109730,"heading":"tattoo parlors?","article":"wow....\r\ni know so many young republicans with tattoos.... \r\nwtf do tattoos have to do with anything? \r\n\r\nand palm reading? LOL. \r\n","author":"midgie","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-08 12:57:44","modified":"2004-05-08 12:57:44","fileurl":""},{"id":109765,"heading":"seriously!!","article":"no....really. i know you were being ironic, but i just couldn't make the connection. normally people talk about a bikers and shit being in tattoo parlors.....not really the birkenstock activist crowd.\r\nand the palm reading just plain mystified me.\r\n\r\nbut whaddo i know? i'm just a weed-smoking, socialist scumbag. ","author":"midgie","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-08 20:06:17","modified":"2004-05-08 20:06:17","fileurl":""},{"id":109787,"heading":"[Notice]","article":"Bush Admirer.\r\nNuf said...","author":"BA Alert","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-09 00:58:40","modified":"2004-05-09 00:58:40","fileurl":""},{"id":109791,"heading":"i'm an angry elitist","article":"Read my posts. I'm an angry elitist.\r\n\r\nSomeone has to play that part.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-09 04:58:25","modified":"2004-05-09 04:58:25","fileurl":""},{"id":109798,"heading":"i'm now contrite","article":"I feel crappy for some reason.\r\n\r\nIt's probably some kind of cosmic justice for being an asshole to the above guy. Karma can suck.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-09 09:30:38","modified":"2004-05-09 09:30:38","fileurl":""},{"id":109912,"heading":"Bush Admirer","article":""Losers and Liberals are synonymous."\r\n\r\nWRONG!\r\n\r\nLosers and NEOCONS are synonymous.\r\n\r\n","author":"Judge Judy","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-10 19:35:39","modified":"2004-05-10 19:35:39","fileurl":""},{"id":109920,"heading":"talk show trash","article":"JJ\r\n\r\n>"Losers and Liberals are synonymous."\r\n>WRONG!\r\n>Losers and NEOCONS are synonymous.\r\n\r\nMore like Jerry Springer. In any case, your post is a far cry from the Daily Show. There are better ways to get a point across than "I know you are but what am I?"","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-10 21:37:04","modified":"2004-05-10 21:37:04","fileurl":""},{"id":109921,"heading":"definition of neocon","article":"Bush admirer:\r\n\r\nNeocon: conteomprary leftist vernacular for politicians who pander to old-time "conservatives" in speeches, while in deed they are corporate whores more interested in financial gain for themselves and their allies in the financial power elite than in upholding standards of liberty, decency, and olde-time religion. \r\n\r\nAs a general rule, the only one who knows who you are is you.\r\n\r\nApologies for the run-on sentence; I had to split a lot of hairs there.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-10 21:54:02","modified":"2004-05-10 21:54:02","fileurl":""},{"id":110045,"heading":""More like Jerry Springer."","article":"I wouldn't know. Unlike lucius, I don't watch tripe like Springer.","author":"Here comes da judge","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-12 18:40:01","modified":"2004-05-12 18:40:01","fileurl":""},{"id":110216,"heading":"To "lucius"","article":"Government spooks like you are not welcome here.","author":"Janitor","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-14 17:00:56","modified":"2004-05-14 17:00:56","fileurl":""},{"id":110221,"heading":"hey, Janitor","article":"You catch that too?\r\nThis is one phony baloney 'leftist' mole by my book.","author":"Protected witness2","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-14 17:09:58","modified":"2004-05-14 17:09:58","fileurl":""},{"id":110293,"heading":"content","article":"This is me pandering to the baiters. But looky, I'm dropping a perspective-bomb while I'm at it. \r\n\r\nMessage content is the key to unraveling someone else's intent. Some people put their identity up front by using a single handle, and stick their neck out by venturing non-carbon-copy opinions. Other people pathologically change handles, and post a hundred malicious one-liners a day which are obviously intended to frustrate and distract. You do the math, everyone.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-15 19:26:48","modified":"2004-05-15 19:26:48","fileurl":""},{"id":110308,"heading":"neocons","article":"Hey BA, I guess I'll edjamacate you. This is all what I've heard from people who know, because I'm not old enough to remember this stuff.\r\n\r\nThe term was invented by the neocons themselves. They were leftists who made a sharp right turn in the 1970s. Their magazine was Commentary, which was a liberal magazine in the 60s, and became a right-wing mag in the 70s. (This also happened with the New Republic.)\r\n\r\nThere's a lot of talk about the neocons being "Trotskyists", but it's not true. A few of the neocons were in radical left groups, but the rest were not. The influence of Trotsky on leftism in America has more to do with anti-Stalinism; after Stalin, American communists probably found Trotsky's more vision of democratic global revolution to be more palatable than Stalinist nationalism. For these ideas, Trotsky was hunted by some communists; he fled to Mexico, where he was eventually murdered by his fellow communists.\r\n\r\nThey distinguished themselves from the older conservatives in that they believed in equality and civil rights, while the older traditional conservatives (like wm. f buckley and pat buchanan) favored segregation, no rights for women, anti-abortion, etc. Traditional conservatives also tend to favor protectionism, because they were extremely greedy and racist, and thought of non-whites and inferior and unfit for democracy.\r\n\r\nI'm NOT making this up. Traditional conservatives were in both political parties in the 60s, too. They were Democrats in the South.\r\n\r\nNeocons also differed from the emergent libertarians as well, because, the libertarians tended to be isolationist and anti-government, while the neocons were favoring imperialism, particularly in Israel. The main intellectuals of neoconservatism were (and are) New York Jewish intellectuals connected to the CCNY. They are unabashedly Zionist. In this, they also diverge from traditional conservatism, which tends to be very Christian to the point of paranoia about Jewish people.\r\n\r\nThe first entry of neocons into power was during the Reagan administration. The legwork was done by the Christian Conservatives, who are basically the pro-prayer and anti-choice faction of the GOP, but the thrust of the foreign policy and economic policy was neoconservative.\r\n\r\nThis linked article has some information.\r\n\r\nSomeone who is conservative on fiscal issues while liberal on social issues is called a Clinton or Kerry supporter, because that's pretty much a run of the mill DLC candidate. Joe Lieberman is a good example of a stealth conservative in the Democratic party. Some say Hilary Clinton is another one. There really are no major fiscally liberal candidates in American politics. No politician talks about a shorter work week, better pay, and raising some tariffs.\r\n\r\nLikewise, there are really no major anti-imperialist candidates either. The foreign policy today is basically the same whether the Democrats or Republicans are in power. It's just a battle between a multicultural, UN-friendly, pro-choice imperialism and a white supremecist, go-it-alone, christian imperialism.\r\n\r\nThe Right is so entrenched in power in America that they no longer rail against real challenges to their power. Instead, they rail against bogeymen and phantoms: the liberal media, the liberal universities, the people going to hell, the big government, the high taxes, and socialist health care.\r\n\r\nNone of these things exists in America. Not in the least. To even fight over these things shows how deluded we are about the political situation. \r\n\r\nWhat are our politics? We are a nation that passes a law like USA PATRIOT. That's what we are.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-15 22:42:04","modified":"2004-05-15 22:42:04","fileurl":""},{"id":110317,"heading":"My salad can't type","article":"because it has no fingers.\r\nBut it doesn't try to.\r\nYou could learn a few things from it, oh fountain of self proclaimed wisdom.","author":"Bush Admirer's Friend","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-16 00:21:49","modified":"2004-05-16 00:21:49","fileurl":""},{"id":110318,"heading":"a few short rebuttals","article":""Could you please provide a source for that conclusion? I don't believe Wm F. Buckley or Pat Buchanan are or ever were in favor of segregation or against women's equality. Is that something you dreamed up?"\r\n\r\nBuckley said in a Time interivew that his support of Jim Crow laws was only political position he lamented holding (back when it mattered). Buchanan's position is detailed here: http:\/\/www.adl.org\/special_reports\/buchanan_own_words\/on_segregation.asp\r\n\r\nBoth have consistently opposed the ERA and legal abortion.\r\n\r\nThe main difference between the old conservatives and the neo-conservatives is that the old conservatives were, more or less, white supremecist Christian racists, while the neo-conservatives liked the idea of civil rights, but not the idea of Affirmative Action. This is within the 1960s context.\r\n\r\nAs for "growing up" - the neocons were liberals well into their middle age. They were opportunists who saw the political winds shifting and changed their politics.\r\n\r\nThe contemporary definition of neocon differs somewhat. The neocon is imperialist, while the paleocon is isolationist. The old racist conservatism has been relegated to the fringes (somewhat) as its main supporters die off.\r\n\r\nThis is really sad BA, that a self-labeled radical leftist knows more about conservatives than a "bush admirer" does. What next? Do you want any lessons in the realities of business and economics? Do you want to know what a pathetic alcoholic your hero is?","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-16 01:20:09","modified":"2004-05-16 01:20:09","fileurl":""},{"id":110325,"heading":"very good posts","article":"I never thought I'd type "Good work" in reference to a more rational post, but here it is: "Good work." \r\n\r\nRegarding this:\r\n\r\nThe contemporary definition of neocon differs somewhat. The neocon is imperialist, while the paleocon is isolationist. The old racist conservatism has been relegated to the fringes (somewhat) as its main supporters die off. \r\n\r\n>>>> There are no fast and easy answers to the question of imperialism versus isolationism.\r\n\r\n>>>> Isolationism needs to be more clearly defined here. Do we throw up huge walls and slow immigration to a trickle? While at the same time engaging in tariff-free free trade? Do you we keep NO military presence anywhere in the world? Recall all our nuke subs?\r\n\r\n>>>> The Constitution, of course, was written well before the oil technologies. One can say, cynically, that every time the US now deploys troops it's to look for oil. I don't believe that (Chomsky does). A good many liberals like to ignore the fact that ALL nations are in competition with one another for resources and power, not just the US of A. The Soviet Union "also" had many "adventures" beyond the Russian border. \r\n\r\n>>>> The world is too small for viable imperialism, but it's also too small to allow terrorist nations to grow in power (a la Hitler) while we sit back and essentially wait for another 9\/11. \r\n\r\n>>>> If there was a cosmic accounting for all the good America hath wrought versus all the bad, I think we'd tip the scale so violently on the good side the few bad events would go flying. One opinion.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-16 03:24:17","modified":"2004-05-16 03:24:17","fileurl":""},{"id":110334,"heading":"Then please list them","article":">If there was a cosmic accounting for all the good America hath wrought versus all the bad, I think we'd tip the scale so violently on the good side the few bad events would go flying. One opinion.<\r\n\r\nGive me a list that outweighs the crimes of US imperial capitalism.\r\nI am truly curious. Be specific. Thanks in advance.","author":"curious","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-16 11:34:33","modified":"2004-05-16 11:34:33","fileurl":""},{"id":110438,"heading":"2 paradigms of interventionism","article":"The list of US Imperialist actions is substantial. Cecil posted a few key items at LA IMC, which are located at: \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/la.indymedia.org\/news\/2002\/11\/22725.php\r\n\r\nBy historical precedent, the US is an imperialist nation. This is part of our national identity. The real question is, "did we use our powers for good, or for evil?" Well, both, obviously--so why try to quantify it? The most important thing is to stay educated about this history, so that we will avoid repeating the worst mistakes in the future. \r\n\r\n"US interventionism" can mean that America takes an antagonistic stance toward another nation (through military force, sanctions, economic pressure, CIA-trained paramilitary death squad leaders, etc). On the other hand, it could also refer to America acting proactively for the benefit of another nation, without hostility (preventing economic destabilization, providing food and medical aid, or mediating a conflict with another nation). \r\n\r\nAt least for now, some hostility on America's part is necessary (especially in dealing with Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups). I'm not trying to be a "Pollyanna" here, I'm just saying that the dominant model of Interventionism at the moment is based on antagonistic strategies. The effort to rebuild Iraq seemed to be mitigating some of this sentiment, but the level of violence directed at Americans, and the recent prison abuses, has taken the wind out of those sails. \r\n\r\nEven if the US did more positive things for other countries, our spectacle-driven media machine wouldn't cover it as avidly as the more violent interventions. "Nobody died? No guns? Nothing got blowed up? That's not Real News, that's a back-pages human interest story! I don't care if the US just helped 300 million people--it won't draw people in unless there is A) sex, or B) violence." There's a certain self-fulfilling prophecy behind news organizations deciding what "the people" really want to know about.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-18 02:30:59","modified":"2004-05-18 02:30:59","fileurl":""},{"id":110439,"heading":"chicken manure","article":"The terrorists you bring up are american made entities.\r\nThe new bogeyman. Most likely still intelligence or intelligence infiltrated with 30 plus billion a year from the congress to feed the always increasing appitites of this counsel of thugs and all the alphebet soup agencies they run.\r\nThe new world mafia and their protection rackets.\r\nEither you don't know this or you're part of the problem.","author":"lurker","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-18 02:50:14","modified":"2004-05-18 02:50:14","fileurl":""},{"id":110443,"heading":"yessir, we trained Bin Laden","article":"There are a lot of old connections between US Intel and people whom we later called our enemies. Osama Bin Laden is at the top of the list, but we have also trained other leading figures in Al Quaeda. America gave them the counterinsurgency, espionage, and weapons training that they now use to operate below other countries' radar. \r\n\r\nSome of these connections are a matter of public record. Others, especially any ongoing correspondence, are not (got any links along these lines?). Some actions in the "war on terrorism" really amount to America trying to clean up old messes that have come back to haunt us. \r\n\r\nI agree with you on this, but I also believe in avoiding future acts of violence. And in not training a new wave of "promising" potential-future-terrorists in other countries, whether or not they have certain interests in common.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-18 03:19:11","modified":"2004-05-18 03:19:11","fileurl":""},{"id":110509,"heading":"on the 1)s and 2)s","article":"Give me a list that outweighs the crimes of US imperial capitalism. I am truly curious. Be specific. Thanks in advance.\r\n\r\nWhy should I bother? If firefighters saved 99 kids from a burning building you'd never stop bitching about the 1 that died. That's how the left works. There's only 2 instances a leftist stops whining for more than 10 minutes:\r\n\r\n1) whoever the big mouth is or was, s\/he found a payoff through gummint aid, blackmail of a corporation (je$$e!) or culled enough flat-earther rubes to buy the DVD\/book (Mike Millionaire Moore). \r\n\r\n2) see #1 \r\n\r\nIf you're typing from the USA, you're already full of it since you've "voted with your feets" and haven't left.\r\n\r\nSince there's not a one lefty with a laundry list of 'cia crimes' that hasn't: \r\n\r\n1) publicly stated a superior country to the USA.\r\n2) moved there\r\n\r\n"your" credibility hovers around 0.3%\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 00:36:15","modified":"2004-05-19 00:36:15","fileurl":""},{"id":110512,"heading":"Three days","article":"Three days and you have failed. I thought so.","author":"not curious anymore","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 01:07:12","modified":"2004-05-19 01:07:12","fileurl":""},{"id":110519,"heading":"and","article":"nice little dance there, Eddie, short but cute. ","author":"s\/a","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 03:26:37","modified":"2004-05-19 03:26:37","fileurl":""},{"id":110525,"heading":"Who better to know failure than a liberal?","article":"Three days and you have failed. I thought so.<\/I>

\r\nYawn. Who better to know failure than a liberal? Failed policies, failed economic theory, failed hypotheses, failed election results.

\r\n\r\nYou still can't (or won't) pick a better country. Typical.","author":"another satisfied cutomer","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-19 07:25:39","modified":"2004-05-19 07:25:39","fileurl":""},{"id":110532,"heading":"ay-ah","article":"BA, you're so simplistic, I can't even respond. Just re-read what I wrote.\r\n\r\nIf you're not a fan of Buchanan or Buckley, then what kind of conservative are you? Are you just a misinformed Republican team player who really doesn't have a genuine political position? That's what you sound like.\r\n\r\nYour entire position is racially prejudiced. First, the assertion that Affirmative Action is racism, is pure neo-conservative propaganda circa 1975 and the Bakke decision. Second, the "lower taxes" issue became a significant conservative position after Civil Rights, when government funds were no longer marshalled in support of racism.\r\n\r\nThe fact that your conservative friends don't discuss these issues, nor discuss foreign policy issues tells me that your conservative friends probably are just know-nothing rah-rahs who vote for the winner rather than make an informed choice about anything. That seems to be pretty typical on the Right these days, especially since you have big media on your side.\r\n\r\nSteve Jobs is a pro-gay liberal, bub.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 08:10:03","modified":"2004-05-19 08:10:03","fileurl":""},{"id":110536,"heading":"still waiting - Day 4","article":""If there was a cosmic accounting for all the good America hath wrought versus all the bad, I think we'd tip the scale so violently on the good side the few bad events would go flying. One opinion."\r\n\r\nAnd you still can't dance to your own tune.","author":"Yawn","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 10:53:16","modified":"2004-05-19 10:53:16","fileurl":""},{"id":110543,"heading":"liberals are...","article":""Yawn. Who better to know failure than a liberal? Failed policies, failed economic theory, failed hypotheses, failed election results."\r\n\r\nHere is my savvy anti-liberal retort:\r\n\r\nYawn. You liberals never learn. If you try to criticize US policy, you are by default a liberal, provided it's a Republican policy you're criticizing. Hell, you could be a Republican criticizing Bush (lord knows there are quite a few of them nowadays), and you are a liberal. Because I say so. Not only do I know exactly what "liberal" means, I know exactly WHO is a liberal. Liberal liberal liberal. Anything you say is patently stupid and unrealistic. You just complain all the time. \r\n\r\n"I want civil rights, please!" Whiner. \r\n\r\n"All nations should be held accountable for war crimes and other humanitarian abuses." Anti-American commie. \r\n\r\n"I want to go back to the Clinton years' economic surplus, instead of this crippling nationwide debt, unprecedented unemployment figures, and growing gap between the richest 1% and everyone else!" You pitiful loser. Don't you realize that liberals are doomed to economic failure?\r\n\r\nAt least half of the posts above this one say "liberals are losers" in so many words. People are so cocky about their scornful pigeonholing, they don't even bother to substantiate it. What a debate we've got going here--I'm on the edge of my seat! ","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 12:59:32","modified":"2004-05-19 12:59:32","fileurl":""},{"id":110561,"heading":"Have we turned 16 yet?","article":""If there was a cosmic accounting for all the good America hath wrought versus all the bad, I think we'd tip the scale so violently on the good side the few bad events would go flying. One opinion."

\r\n\r\nAnd you still can't dance to your own tune.<\/I>\r\n

\r\nAnd you still can't (or won't) pick a better country. If you can find another country with a document comparable to the Bill of Rights, by all means, let us know. That alone is plenty for you to chew on.<\/B>\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-19 16:26:24","modified":"2004-05-19 16:26:24","fileurl":""},{"id":110566,"heading":"sorry, wrong Bill of Rights","article":"Ironic: most of the people being called "pathetic liberals" in this forum are advocating the preservation of constitutional freedoms. Guantanamo Bay (no fair or speedy trials), Iraqi and domestic prison abuses (cruel and unusual punishment), Free Speech Zones (duh..), teaching Christianity in schools (nationalized religion vs. separation of Church and State), activists being targeted, violent state crackdowns of peaceful as well as nonpeaceful protesters, et.al.\r\n\r\nI don't know what Bill of Rights you think you're protecting. As far as I'm concerned, the people advocating the above causes are decidedly PRO-American, which means that they belong here. They just don't like anti-American, e.g., unconstitutional, agendas ruling politics in the US.","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 16:48:34","modified":"2004-05-19 16:48:34","fileurl":""},{"id":110567,"heading":"ANNNK! wrong answer","article":"This is my country. My family lives here and to leave would be cowardly. I'll fight for what I think is right and just as I do know how to fight. You can thank the military for that. Infantry. Huwa!\r\n\r\nStill can't back up your own stupid declaration as I hear you blow hot air without anything but your own vapor to substantiate it. Not surprised. And I aint no liberal. \r\nYou're bating at zero so far but if you could run, you'd be good at dodge ball.\r\nSTILL WAITING, buzz lips.\r\n","author":"s\/a","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 16:58:41","modified":"2004-05-19 16:58:41","fileurl":""},{"id":110568,"heading":"liberals with heads in sand (if they're lucky)","article":"Ironic: most of the people being called "pathetic liberals" in this forum are advocating the preservation of constitutional freedoms. \r\n\r\n----No, they're not. "Hate speech" (anti-1st Amendment) anti-gun (anti-2nd Amendment) hundreds of government entities with no Constitutional authority in existence (thanks FDR!) and plenty of taxation without representation (both parties guilty)\r\n\r\n\r\nGuantanamo Bay (no fair or speedy trials), Iraqi and domestic prison abuses (cruel and unusual punishment)\r\n\r\n----those are non-U.S. Citizens at Shitmo, or civilians accused of treason. i shed no tears for them. \r\n\r\n----U.S. leadership has condemned the "torture" of these NON-combatants, who are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention. The koranimals who murdered Nick Berg seem to also have skipped your liberal sermon about "human rights."\r\n\r\nFree Speech Zones (duh..)\r\n\r\n----thank the liberal kollijes who invented them.\r\n\r\n teaching Christianity in schools (nationalized religion vs. separation of Church and State),\r\n\r\n---give one example of this happening in one of your precious government indoctrination centers (aka 'public' schools)\r\n\r\nactivists being targeted, violent state crackdowns of peaceful as well as nonpeaceful protesters, et.al.\r\n\r\n--baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening. most people know the war is just. \r\n \r\nI don't know what Bill of Rights you think you're protecting. As far as I'm concerned, the people advocating the above causes are decidedly PRO-American, which means that they belong here. They just don't like anti-American, e.g., unconstitutional, agendas ruling politics in the US.\r\n\r\n----"socialism lite" is no better than communism. there is much on the left, in and of itself, that is anti-american. it's a mixed bag all around.\r\n\r\n","author":"FTR","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:02:23","modified":"2004-05-19 17:02:23","fileurl":""},{"id":110569,"heading":"liberals with heads in sand (if they're lucky)","article":"Ironic: most of the people being called "pathetic liberals" in this forum are advocating the preservation of constitutional freedoms. \r\n\r\n----No, they're not. "Hate speech" (anti-1st Amendment) anti-gun (anti-2nd Amendment) hundreds of government entities with no Constitutional authority in existence (thanks FDR!) and plenty of taxation without representation (both parties guilty)\r\n\r\n\r\nGuantanamo Bay (no fair or speedy trials), Iraqi and domestic prison abuses (cruel and unusual punishment)\r\n\r\n----those are non-U.S. Citizens at Shitmo, or civilians accused of treason. i shed no tears for them. \r\n\r\n----U.S. leadership has condemned the "torture" of these NON-combatants, who are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention. The koranimals who murdered Nick Berg seem to also have skipped your liberal sermon about "human rights."\r\n\r\nFree Speech Zones (duh..)\r\n\r\n----thank the liberal kollijes who invented them.\r\n\r\n teaching Christianity in schools (nationalized religion vs. separation of Church and State),\r\n\r\n---give one example of this happening in one of your precious government indoctrination centers (aka 'public' schools)\r\n\r\nactivists being targeted, violent state crackdowns of peaceful as well as nonpeaceful protesters, et.al.\r\n\r\n--baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening. most people know the war is just. \r\n \r\nI don't know what Bill of Rights you think you're protecting. As far as I'm concerned, the people advocating the above causes are decidedly PRO-American, which means that they belong here. They just don't like anti-American, e.g., unconstitutional, agendas ruling politics in the US.\r\n\r\n----"socialism lite" is no better than communism. there is much on the left, in and of itself, that is anti-american. it's a mixed bag all around.\r\n\r\n","author":"FTR","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:02:38","modified":"2004-05-19 17:02:38","fileurl":""},{"id":110573,"heading":"the rise of the American pervert","article":"Sicko's like you are a perversion of America. You support racism, you defend illegally toppling sovereign govts, you want schools and teachers to march lock step to your unscietific and fairytale beliefs in a false mythology, you demonize anyone attmpting to challenge the luncay of the new American Nazi Party (your leaders).\r\n\r\nTake your insanity and go somewhere else, hopefully off this planet. America is a nation of adaptation not, as you would have it, a fascist avatar.","author":"Barracuda","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:10:50","modified":"2004-05-19 17:10:50","fileurl":""},{"id":110576,"heading":"you, only served.","article":"This is my country. My family lives here and to leave would be cowardly.<\/I>

\r\nTotal copout. You STILL can\u2019t name a place where you would emigrate to that\u2019s better, either. Canada? Zimbabwe? France? It would be neither cowardly nor noble for you to leave. Since this America, you\u2019re free to leave at any time, yet another gift (you\u2019ll ignore). In so many regimes around the world, they kill people for trying to leave. You even have the right to be ungrateful for all that America has given you and express that right, without being arrested or shot for it.

\r\nI'll fight for what I think is right and just as I do know how to fight. You can thank the military for that. Infantry. Huwa!<\/I>

\r\nGood for you. Since we ALL have guns, no gang of thugs is going to take over. Hooray!

\r\nStill can't back up your own stupid declaration as I hear you blow hot air without anything but your own vapor to substantiate it. Not surprised. And I aint no liberal.<\/I>

\r\nFor the folks just joining the show, you typed, \u201cGive me a list that outweighs the crimes of US imperial capitalism.<\/I>

\r\nWell, holmes, I don\u2019t care whether you fart or blow a tin whistle, whether you\u2019re happy in the USA or not. There are no guarantees. No one has any obligation to make life easy for you or give you \u201ca way of life\u201d or something to believe in. I have MY reasons why America Rules. Highest standard of living in the world. Free speech, freedom of religion, right to bear arms, right to a fair trial, free elections, public libraries and (before it was usurped by liberals) \u201cfree\u201d public education. In no other country does a citizen have so much personal freedom while being protected from an arbitrary government. We also helped eliminate the EVIL that is communism. \r\n

Now, since you\u2019re so down on \u2018Imperial capitalism,\u2019 why don\u2019t you tell us all what YOUR ideal gummint system might be? Because I can\u2019t WAIT to hear another diatribe about how communism or anarchism will work from yet another \u2018Revolutionary Who Would Be King.\u2018 \r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-19 17:32:50","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:46","fileurl":""},{"id":110577,"heading":"the organ grinder plays","article":"You're the one who gave the pronouncement. \r\nwithout substance. I don't need to defend myself because I didn't shoot off my mouth.\r\n Are you a tard?","author":"the little monkey dances","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:41:30","modified":"2004-05-19 17:41:30","fileurl":""},{"id":110578,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"waiter:"those are non-U.S. Citizens at Shitmo, or civilians accused of treason. i shed no tears for them."\r\n\r\nThe constitution applies to citizens and non-citizens, your lack of tears notwithstanding...\r\n\r\n...and there have been no charges of treason for American detainees in Cuba...and such charges would not strip constitutional protection from these citizens.\r\n\r\n..try again, my little brownshirted fuck....\r\n\r\nOH, I almost forgot THIS one in a point by point response to another poster: \r\n\r\n\r\n"baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening."\r\n\r\nno one...except the waiter!\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:42:22","modified":"2004-05-19 17:42:22","fileurl":""},{"id":110579,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"waiter: "Since we ALL have guns, no gang of thugs is going to take over. "\r\n\r\n..wake up an smell the coffee, dingleberry....we already got a gang of thugs, and all your guns didn't help your country one duelin' banjo pickin' bit.\r\n\r\nwaiter: "I have MY reasons why America Rules. "\r\n\r\n...personally, I'm a Mets fan....so I can understand why you are all bent out of shape with your team on a losing streak and all\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 17:53:27","modified":"2004-05-19 17:53:27","fileurl":""},{"id":110580,"heading":"one for carrabuda","article":"Sicko's like you are a perversion of America. \r\n\r\n....you demonize anyone attmpting to challenge the luncay of the new American Nazi Party (your leaders). \r\n\r\n********\r\nAs a half-Jew with many branches of the family tree sawed off by REAL nazis, I take great offense to the tired and incorrect use of the term "nazi." You have little or no idea what life is like under a real fascist regime, and 2004 America is nothing like one. \r\n\r\nI understand that liberals are so desperate and out of fuel that rather than form a cogent argument, they simply call their idealogical enemies nazis and fascists. I mean, what else do you have? Facts don't support your worldviews and neither does history. You're totally ruled by your emotions, something real education (not self-esteem crap) seeks to control.\r\n\r\nThere is little incentive to debate someone who refuses to believe evil exists in the world. REAL evil, outside of liberal name-calling of anything or anyone that doesn't agree with the liberal\/socialist agenda.\r\n\r\nWhether you accept it or not, we're at war with the defective 10th century "civilization" that makes up most of the Middle East. \r\n\r\nI have no interest in "silencing" anyone from expressing a point of view. I've simply never heard a worthwhile argument from any lefty about why we should leave regmes who hate us "alone," so they can build up arsenals and train terrorist armies to attack us. We already tried appeasement during the clintoon years and it failed. \r\n\r\nEither the Middle East will be reformed or it will be wiped clear like an Etch-A-Sketch. They will never be the same again.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 18:09:15","modified":"2004-05-19 18:09:15","fileurl":""},{"id":110582,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"waiter: "You're totally ruled by your emotions, something real education (not self-esteem crap) seeks to control. "\r\n\r\n...spare us your Star Trek psycology, schoolboy....\r\n","author":"KPC","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 18:18:10","modified":"2004-05-19 18:18:10","fileurl":""},{"id":110584,"heading":"burp","article":"Ah, One-Eyed Glans, one of my favorite liberal pustules.\r\n\r\nThe constitution applies to citizens and non-citizens, your lack of tears notwithstanding... \r\n\r\n----obviously not. ha ha ha. lesson: don't aim a rifle at our troops if you're not willing to die.\r\n\r\n...and there have been no charges of treason for American detainees in Cuba...and such charges would not strip constitutional protection from these citizens. \r\n\r\n..try again, my little brownshirted fuck.... \r\n\r\n----I trust the folks in charge to reign in dangerous animals than some hippie asswit who denies the existence of evil. \r\n\r\n"baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening." \r\n\r\nno one...except the waiter! \r\n\r\n----I do so very much enjoy dulling my sword blades on typical weak liberal arguments. but I'll still be voting against every last democrap, just like a huge majority will in november.\r\n\r\nwaiter: "Since we ALL have guns, no gang of thugs is going to take over. " \r\n\r\n..wake up an smell the coffee, dingleberry....we already got a gang of thugs, and all your guns didn't help your country one duelin' banjo pickin' bit. \r\n\r\n----listen, OEG, your corrupt little clintonista junta had its shot to make this a perfect world. it failed, as all democrap socialism must, since it's so out o' whack with human nature. I'll take my chances with BushCo., thanks.\r\n\r\n----Mets fan? good for you. Hope you get a cut of their *cough* world series winnings.\r\n \r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2004-05-19 18:22:57","modified":"2005-08-15 02:55:46","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/oem.jpgfjzccj.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2004\/05\/oem.jpgfjzccj.jpg"}},{"id":110585,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"waiter: "I understand that liberals are so desperate and out of fuel that rather than form a cogent argument, they simply call their idealogical enemies nazis and fascists. I mean, what else do you have? Facts don't support your worldviews and neither does history."\r\n\r\n\r\nwaiter: "listen, OEG, your corrupt little clintonista junta had its shot to make this a perfect world. it failed, as all democrap socialism must, since it's so out o' whack with human nature."\r\n\r\n\r\n...oooo...you LIBERAL, you!","author":"KPC","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 18:45:18","modified":"2004-05-19 18:45:18","fileurl":""},{"id":110586,"heading":"OneEyedMan","article":"waiter: "I trust the folks in charge to reign in dangerous animals than some hippie asswit who denies the existence of evil."\r\n\r\n...hmmm, sounds suspiciously like the waiter rolling over..."let's talk about how great America is because we have a Bill of Rights...but don't expect to USE it or anything..."\r\n\r\n...run along schoolboy, run along and play in the kiddie pool where you belong, leave the real world to the adults...","author":"KPC","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 18:50:44","modified":"2004-05-19 18:50:44","fileurl":""},{"id":110590,"heading":"Taxes","article":"Here's a great site that tells the story on taxes\r\n\r\n

click here...<\/a>","author":"BA","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2004-05-19 20:33:22","modified":"2004-05-19 20:33:22","fileurl":""},{"id":110591,"heading":"what?","article":"" ----No, they're not. "Hate speech" (anti-1st Amendment) anti-gun (anti-2nd Amendment) hundreds of government entities with no Constitutional authority in existence (thanks FDR!) and plenty of taxation without representation (both parties guilty) "\r\n\r\nWhat site are you reading? Please back these up with some links. Please.\r\n\r\nYou're describing some debates that are far more active on other sites, but not this one. There are a lot more "anarchists" here than your typical leftist\/socialist site, and anarchists are "anti state". Generally speaking, they are for freedom of speech (look at the garbage that's allowed on this site!), they are neutral on guns or pro-gun, against big government (but for social welfare), and even against taxes.\r\n\r\nThe main way anarchists differ from libertarians\/conservatives is that anarchists are against private property, at least in principle. The other way they differ is that anarchist generally think that a greater fraction of our national production should be for social welfare, food, shelter, etc.\r\n\r\n" ----U.S. leadership has condemned the "torture" of these NON-combatants, who are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention. The koranimals who murdered Nick Berg seem to also have skipped your liberal sermon about "human rights.""\r\n\r\nThey are protected to an even greater degree. "Koranimals"? You're a racist.\r\n\r\nIMHO, the Nick Berg video was a fraud, and Berg was offed with American approval. It's just yet-another story of a regular American offed by powerful Americans who needed a dead American body to rile up the people.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 20:35:02","modified":"2004-05-19 20:35:02","fileurl":""},{"id":110592,"heading":"the great things here are based on misery elsewhere","article":"Wanker, all those things you say about America being tops is mostly true. We have some problems too, like widespread poverty, but, America is a nice place to live, thanks to imperial capitalism.\r\n\r\nOur nice lives are made possible by the suffering in other countries. It's a simple fact of imperial capitalism and neoliberalism.\r\n\r\nConsider the basis of the nice lives of a shoe designer, an advertising exec, a graphic artist, a commercial editor, and the CEO. A lot of people suffer so these American lives can be nice. There are teenage girls in Indonesia who work long days to sew shoes at poverty wages in unsafe conditions. There are union organizers who get beat up or killed. There are families that drink poisoned water and breathe sickening air.\r\n\r\nIt's an immoral condition we're creating with capitalism.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 20:44:17","modified":"2004-05-19 20:44:17","fileurl":""},{"id":110596,"heading":"great!","article":""Capital would flee the country and so would most of the Republicans who run things now. The absence of private property rights and the welfare state would make relocation to New Zealand or Australia the big priority for most of us."\r\n\r\nHave you set a date? You can take what ever you havn't already shipped off shore and the real Americans will build a better land for everyone. We need your kind like a case of cancer.","author":"What an Idea!","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 21:27:41","modified":"2004-05-19 21:27:41","fileurl":""},{"id":110605,"heading":"capitalism is a stairway, not a cage","article":"Wanker, all those things you say about America being tops is mostly true. We have some problems too, like widespread poverty, but, America is a nice place to live, thanks to imperial capitalism. \r\n\r\n>>>> First off, if you want to be a smartass and "mispronounce" my handle, that's your prerogative, but how much smoother to do it in a separate post or arena when you're not trying to make a point.\r\n\r\n"Our nice lives are made possible by the suffering in other countries. It's a simple fact of imperial capitalism and neoliberalism." \r\n\r\n>>> You're describing a basic tenet of socialism, 'In order for one party to "win" the other must "lose."' It's not true. \r\n>>> If the "simple facts" of that which you mention is so evil, then why are capitalism and decentralization being embraced by more and more countries while its inverse (socialism\/communism) is failing or the basis of floundering second-rate nations? \r\n>>> Our "nice" lives weren't handed to us. Generations of sacrficie and hard work brought the USA to its current level of excellence, despite ongoing hardships. \r\n\r\n"Consider the basis of the nice lives of a shoe designer, an advertising exec, a graphic artist, a commercial editor, and the CEO. A lot of people suffer so these American lives can be nice. There are teenage girls in Indonesia who work long days to sew shoes at poverty wages in unsafe conditions. There are union organizers who get beat up or killed. There are families that drink poisoned water and breathe sickening air. \r\n\r\nIt's an immoral condition we're creating with capitalism."\r\n\r\n>>> It's only Opportunity and the creation of wealth that lifts people out of the 'squalor' you describe. The Indonesian girls sell their labor (for now). It's all they have, since most don't have property or land to sell.\r\n>>> As their country becomes wealthier, new equipment and methodologies will follow, just like they did in the USA.\r\n\r\n>>> I don't deny there's suffering in the world. I only disagree with how much blame for suffering leftists try to pin on the United States or capitalism , which is imperfect yet the best chance anyone has to succeed. \r\n\r\n>>> America has the wealthiest poor in the world, btw. Every ten years the previously poor end up middle class. It's difficult to gauge who is poor because the "poverty level standard " is rising all the time.\r\n\r\n>>> On a related note, I've never seen a starving anarchist in the USA. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 22:13:31","modified":"2004-05-19 22:13:31","fileurl":""},{"id":110615,"heading":"the issue of private property","article":"Hmmm... someone seems to be drinking the corporatist kool-ade. The skills to operate an enterprise, and the capital necessary to scale up an enterprise to compete with existing enterprises, are different things.\r\n\r\nThe skills are often pretty basic, and can be taught to many. There really aren't that many positions out there that require special mental, personal, or physical abilities. Scientists and engineers, extremely effective leaders, and professional athletes are exceptional, but, the other 98% of the economy is created by more average people.\r\n\r\nMore than that, the rest of the economy requires that people be "dumbed down" to function in the machinery of commerce.\r\n\r\nThe big business that produce the best quality tend to be those that encourage the workers to keep their brains functioning. Those that don't are challenged by smaller businesses. From this, I assume that small groups of workers can produce innovations and self-manage small factories. Groups of groups can collectively manage larger factories.\r\n\r\nThe Mondragon co-ops of Spain are an example of large enterprises with worker control. It's not without problems, but, the enterprise is 30,000 workers, or approximately the size of Disney. etc. etc. Check the link.","author":"more rational","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-19 22:44:02","modified":"2004-05-19 22:44:02","fileurl":""},{"id":110642,"heading":"justice ain't too fair these days","article":"Walker,\r\n\r\nI'm just going to ignore the token "I'm entitled to make another massive generalization of all Bush critics in the USA" segment. You seem to think that about a million different points of view put people under the "liberal" heading. Bait someone else with this tired line.\r\n\r\nNow, on to your take on how "liberals" are opposed to Constitutional freedoms, while those humanitarians who brought you the Patriot Act are the Bill of Rights' biggest fans. \r\n\r\n[Guantanamo Bay (no fair or speedy trials), Iraqi and domestic prison abuses (cruel and unusual punishment)] \r\n>those are non-U.S. Citizens at Shitmo, or civilians accused of treason. i shed no tears for them. \r\n\r\nWow, you really know what all of them were accused of? Every fucking one? Dude, if you sold that story, you could get SO rich. See, all the newspapers, all over the world, are still waiting to hear what the inmates have been charged with. I hear that their families are a bit concerned, too.\r\n\r\nYou have no apparent defense for this radical overhaul of the US justice system. You seem like a hypocrite to me, claiming to adore the Bill of Rights yet defending these clear indicators of a shift toward totalitarian government. All you have done is to distort the facts and change the subject... come to think of it, you would be the type of person to support the Bush administration. \r\n\r\n>U.S. leadership has condemned the "torture" of these NON-combatants, who are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention. The koranimals who murdered Nick Berg seem to also have skipped your liberal sermon about "human rights." \r\n\r\nOh, we were talking about Nick Berg? I mean, I'm open to discussing his murder, but let's just finish with this topic first, OK? \r\n\r\nI think that we were debating whether our government is doing what is best. Funny, but all that I heard is a weak but common rationalization: "everyone should settle for bad policy, as long as it's not quite as bad as our enemies' policy."\r\n\r\nThe idea of the Geneva convention, among a few other such international charters, was that any country that claimed to believe in humanitarian policies would apply the Geneva principles in international matters as well as domestic ones. Now, it is coming out that Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney regarded the Geneva convention as "antiquated" and wanted to get around it. Plan A was to conceal the project from Americans, and from nations that would condemn us for claiming a humanitarian stance but "cheating" as we please. \r\n\r\nWell, people found out. On to Plan B: try to convince Americans (after the fact) that the Geneva convention is no longer necessary. At the same, time, they want to obscure the fact that the prison abuses preempted international law, precedent, and social ideals. Yet another agenda that the Outlaws have pushed on Americans without most people's knowledge or consent. And who gets the bad name? Americans. Who will die if this further escalates anti-US terrorist sentiments? Americans--the same ones who never voted for this to happen, were never even asked about it, and were slated to remain in the dark about the incidents (indefinitely, for all we know).\r\n\r\nAs far as your, Koranimals, I think that they are OK. Know who really bothers me, though? The damn Jesus-freaks, bumfuck redneck inbred Southerners, and simple-minded whitebread steak-and-potatoes-every night midwesterners. I have a minor gripe with japs and chinks. Hey, let's not forget those dumb primitive injuns, coloreds, mics, spics, and guineas, while we're at it. I guess that if I said that slurs have never resulted in positive social change, I would be a frothing-at-the-mouth liberal, right? \r\n\r\n[Free Speech Zones]\r\n>thank the liberal kollijes who invented them. \r\n\r\nJust another way of not bothering to defend what you know is indefensible. Maybe you considered this a case of cleverly throwing out a factoid, but other people are going to notice that you can't morally defend the constitutionality of peaceful protesters being relocated to Free Speech Zones, at least not in the same breath as you defend the Bill of Rights. These are the new Indian reservations, but now, instead of moving the Natives to more "convenient" areas, the government presumes the right to sweep dissenters off to the side where they won't be seen. \r\n\r\nThere's also the rather disturbing Orwellian overtone to the term itself: the message is that free speech (the central pillar of your vaunted Bill of Rights) is no longer available throughout this nation. It has been relegated to DESIGNATED AREAS where it is "tolerated" for the time being. \r\n\r\n[Teaching Christianity in schools (nationalized religion vs. separation of Church and State] \r\n\r\n>give one example of this happening in one of your precious government indoctrination centers (aka 'public' schools) \r\n\r\nOverall, it isn't happening.. but there has been a big push for it. Guess who's holding the fort? I'll give you a hint: it isn't the Religious Right, which has Bush in its pocket.\r\n\r\n[activists being targeted, violent state crackdowns of peaceful as well as nonpeaceful protesters, et. al.] \r\n\r\n>baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening. most people know the war is just. \r\n\r\nIs it me, or did you not address the topic at all? You didn't say anything about brutal tactics that the government employs to intimidate peaceful protesters and "discourage" free speech. The full riot treatment is now the standard state "punishment" for anyone attending an anti-globalization protest when most people don't act out violently, even when sprayed with tear gas or shot with rubber bullets.\r\n\r\n>"socialism lite" is no better than communism. \r\n\r\nIf we were talking about socialism just now, then Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, et. al, were flaming-red Marxist Pinko Commies. No, we were talking about Democracy. You seem to be a staunch supporter of those who don't give a rat's ass about it, and it has blinded you to the point that you can say "ship any brownskins off to Shitmo, along with protesters that no one will care about, and then teach the real God to the Koranimals in Iraqi schools, while we sexually humiliate their parents in US-intel-run prisons and try to hide it from the American public."\r\n\r\nNo worries, right? I guess the idea is that if people like you keep saying that there is nothing to worry about, others will come to believe it. "We are the most humanitarian country in the world, and we believe in free speech, right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment, and did I mention that 2+2+4 equals a million?"\r\n\r\nYou are just voicing a prefabricated consensus, and when one of its logic-holes is laid bare, you don't comment, you just change channels. This is what Bush will be doing with half of his debate time. \r\n\r\n- "…Mr. President, bla bla military service record missing pieces, bla bla WMDs lied to the American Public, bla bla 'what, me Geneva Convention?'\r\n\r\n- "These.. are times full of Terror. And in times of Terror.. we need to be Strong, and put our faith in God.. and his goodness. And we need strong leaders.. to persevere in times of Terrorfulness and Terror."\r\n\r\n- "Mr. President, bla bla Guantanamo Bay, bla bla Free Speech Zones, bla bla 'what, me Democracy?'"\r\n\r\n- "Terrorists are afraid.. of our strength and our freedom. Strong leaders. Kerry would be a pussy in wartime, he'd fuck things up even worse than I did. Vote FEAR in 2004."","author":"lucius","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-20 01:29:58","modified":"2004-05-20 01:29:58","fileurl":""},{"id":110656,"heading":"BushCo ain\u2019t perfect, but it\u2019s still the lesser of two evils","article":"\r\nNow, on to your take on how "liberals" are opposed to Constitutional freedoms, while those humanitarians who brought you the Patriot Act are the Bill of Rights' biggest fans. \r\n[Guantanamo Bay (no fair or speedy trials), Iraqi and domestic prison abuses (cruel and unusual punishment)] \r\n>those are non-U.S. Citizens at Shitmo, or civilians accused of treason. i shed no tears for them. \r\nWow, you really know what all of them were accused of? Every fucking one? Dude, if you sold that story, you could get SO rich. See, all the newspapers, all over the world, are still waiting to hear what the inmates have been charged with. I hear that their families are a bit concerned, too. \r\n>>>> Hey, I don\u2019t care. And I\u2019m not ashamed that I don\u2019t care what\u2019s going on there. There are enough pussy-ass traitors in the media itching to criticize and scream bloody murder about how Hassan\u2014who would gladly slit your Western throat if he could---got a hangnail bowing to mecca while in custody. Wake the fuck up, please. Joe, Jane and Tyrell Sixpack USA aren\u2019t in those cages, just people suspected or caught attacking US troops in a foreign land, and to the last man all of them are variations on the same theme: islamofascist pigs. \r\nYou have no apparent defense for this radical overhaul of the US justice system. You seem like a hypocrite to me, claiming to adore the Bill of Rights yet defending these clear indicators of a shift toward totalitarian government. All you have done is to distort the facts and change the subject... come to think of it, you would be the type of person to support the Bush administration. \r\n>>>> These are bizarre times, my friend. We\u2019re at war with the Middle East yet there is no US martial law and no draft\u2026back home it\u2019s business as usual. The way I see it, 9\/11 did nothing but speed up the erosion of freedom already in progress. Freedom was already dying, since after 3 or 4 generations of apathetic taxed-to-death drones spit out of socialist gummint schools, there aren\u2019t enough patriots who mistrust government anyway. \r\n> U.S. leadership has condemned the "torture" of these NON-combatants, who are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention. The koranimals who murdered Nick Berg seem to also have skipped your liberal sermon about "human rights." \r\nOh, we were talking about Nick Berg? I mean, I'm open to discussing his murder, but let's just finish with this topic first, OK? \r\nI think that we were debating whether our government is doing what is best. Funny, but all that I heard is a weak but common rationalization: "everyone should settle for bad policy, as long as it's not quite as bad as our enemies' policy." \r\nThe idea of the Geneva convention, among a few other such international charters, was that any country that claimed to believe in humanitarian policies would apply the Geneva principles in international matters as well as domestic ones. Now, it is coming out that Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney regarded the Geneva convention as "antiquated" and wanted to get around it. Plan A was to conceal the project from Americans, and from nations that would condemn us for claiming a humanitarian stance but "cheating" as we please. \r\nWell, people found out. On to Plan B: try to convince Americans (after the fact) that the Geneva convention is no longer necessary. At the same, time, they want to obscure the fact that the prison abuses preempted international law, precedent, and social ideals. Yet another agenda that the Outlaws have pushed on Americans without most people's knowledge or consent. And who gets the bad name? Americans. Who will die if this further escalates anti-US terrorist sentiments? Americans--the same ones who never voted for this to happen, were never even asked about it, and were slated to remain in the dark about the incidents (indefinitely, for all we know). \r\n>>>>>> No Iraqi prisoner was tortured. No American cut anyone\u2019s head off. And for the record, if American lives were at risk because Hassib wasn\u2019t talking about a pending attack, I\u2019d take the blowtorch to his eyeballs myself. You seem to be under this steady delusion that we\u2019re dealing with an enemy that cares about human life, including their own. Well, they don\u2019t. They\u2019re ready to die and take as many people with them as possible. \r\n>>>>>> You know, if there\u2019s one thing I admire about our old enemy, the Russians, they knew how to deal with terrorists. One time when 2 Russians were kidnapped, the terrorists who did so awakened to find 4 of their own on their doorstep with their throats slit. There was also a note: \u201cEvery day you keep hostages we kill 2 more.\u201d \r\n>>>>> The Rabs released the hostages that day (surprise). \r\n>>>>> If Rabs understand only cruelty and brute force, I see no need to deny them the sign language of a gun in their faces to get them to cooperate. \r\nAs far as your, Koranimals, I think that they are OK. \r\n>>>>> People can think so, as long as they ignore the way the koranimals beat the shit out of their women and rape little girls, slit each other\u2019s throats, their inability to produce anything greater than a stack of rocks, their lack of contributions to any aspect of world culture for the past 10 centuries and the fact no one sane is in a hurry join their Way of Life and warped quasi-religion. I\u2019d really like to vouch for the 3 \u2018moderate\u2019 clerics in the Middle East, but they are either unwilling or too scared to speak out against their mainstream murderers. \r\nKnow who really bothers me, though? The damn Jesus-freaks, bumfuck redneck inbred Southerners, and simple-minded whitebread steak-and-potatoes-every night midwesterners. I have a minor gripe with japs and chinks. Hey, let's not forget those dumb primitive injuns, coloreds, mics, spics, and guineas, while we're at it. I guess that if I said that slurs have never resulted in positive social change, I would be a frothing-at-the-mouth liberal, right? \r\n>>>>>> Your anti-White, guilty-liberal persona shines through. I like how every last one of you libs in LOCKstep hates the same exact people I mentioned in another post: whites, gun-owners, Southerners, Christians, etc. And this retarded belief that only gays and other noble minorities can \u201csave us from ourselves.\u201d The only real difference in liberal factions is one-third seems to despise the Jews and Israel while the other two-thirds supports them. But all of that is just window dressing for what the typical liberal REALLY fears: people who know the difference between right and wrong. \r\nJust another way of not bothering to defend what you know is indefensible. Maybe you considered this a case of cleverly throwing out a factoid, but other people are going to notice that you can't morally defend the constitutionality of peaceful protesters being relocated to Free Speech Zones, at least not in the same breath as you defend the Bill of Rights. These are the new Indian reservations, but now, instead of moving the Natives to more "convenient" areas, the government presumes the right to sweep dissenters off to the side where they won't be seen. \r\n>>>>>>> Why don\u2019t you accept that the anti-war crowds are a pitiful minority, no matter how many times some dickweed with a digital camera shoots the same 5 freaks marching down Castro Street in Frisco? I don\u2019t know jack shit about \u201cfree speech zones\u201d as I\u2019m not protesting anything in the street. But many times I\u2019ve read of people being jailed \u201cextra long\u201d for \u201chate crimes,\u201d being punished for perceived ideology. Once again, the clueless liberal has opened Pandora\u2019s box, giving government too much power then recoiling in surprise when the same force is used against **HIM**. Ha ha ha. What did you expect? \r\nThere's also the rather disturbing Orwellian overtone to the term itself: the message is that free speech (the central pillar of your vaunted Bill of Rights) is no longer available throughout this nation. It has been relegated to DESIGNATED AREAS where it is "tolerated" for the time being. \r\n>>>>>>> Considering 95% of America\u2019s media is liberally-biased and doing a consistent job of spreading demoralizing no-good-news-EVER about Iraq and the economy, and no one is moving to silence THEM, it would seem to me that free speech is plenty alive and well. \r\n[Teaching Christianity in schools (nationalized religion vs. separation of Church and State] \r\n>give one example of this happening in one of your precious government indoctrination centers (aka 'public' schools) \r\nOverall, it isn't happening.. but there has been a big push for it. Guess who's holding the fort? I'll give you a hint: it isn't the Religious Right, which has Bush in its pocket. \r\n>>>>> Anal sex taught to 3rd graders. Kids suspended for praying on their own time in school. Black kids told, \u201cYou are still slaves.\u201d The left is a circus of value-free perversion, moral relativism, a sewer churning out gullible, weak-minded rubes enslaved by rhetoric and emotion instead of being able to think critically. The sooner government schools close forever, the better.\r\n[activists being targeted, violent state crackdowns of peaceful as well as nonpeaceful protesters, et. al.] \r\n>baloney. you're mad cause no one's listening. most people know the war is just. \r\nIs it me, or did you not address the topic at all? You didn't say anything about brutal tactics that the government employs to intimidate peaceful protesters and "discourage" free speech. \r\n>>>>>>> \u201cBrutal tactics?\u201d Really? Like what? A cop arresting some punk with a spray can? Sorry, I don\u2019t see any Kent States out there, just a bunch of kollij klones led by 60s dinosaurs in a vain, fruitless attempt to pretend they\u2019re doing something meaningful. The PROTESTING is done for its own sake, it\u2019s a god-damned ego trip with no real thought behind it. I see a bunch of rubes aiding the Arab Enemy, because said rubes)are still sore that the current President isn\u2019t a chalk-faced C student who thinks global warming THEORY is real and was ready to destroy the U.S. economy for it. \r\nThe full riot treatment is now the standard state "punishment" for anyone attending an anti-globalization protest when most people don't act out violently, even when sprayed with tear gas or shot with rubber bullets. \r\n>>>>> Obviously from past experiences, those violent a-holes with black flags (\u2018WE ARE UNGOVERNABLE\u201d) and bandannas over their noses have earned those rubber bullets. If you choose to attend rally where the notorious and stupid are ready to commit crimes and fight cops (even though you\u2019re not) don\u2019t cry to me about getting the beat down. \r\n>"socialism lite" is no better than communism. \r\nIf we were talking about socialism just now, then Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, et. al, were flaming-red Marxist Pinko Commies. \r\n>>>>>>>> Not one of the Founders thought the State should pay for health care, housing and food and that a huge government was the Answer to all of life\u2019s problems, unlike today\u2019s modern liberal. Please save the revisionist history for the kampus klassroom, Professor Marx. \r\nNo, we were talking about Democracy. You seem to be a staunch supporter of those who don't give a rat's ass about it, and it has blinded you to the point that you can say "ship any brownskins off to Shitmo, along with protesters that no one will care about, and then teach the real God to the Koranimals in Iraqi schools, while we sexually humiliate their parents in US-intel-run prisons and try to hide it from the American public."\r\n>>>>>>> I don\u2019t think we\u2019re living in the same reality. You completely ignore the mistakes at Abu-Ghraib are officially condemned, that elections aren\u2019t suspended, that there\u2019s still no martial law, no serious crackdowns on anti-war hippies. You have everything you did before 9\/11 and the Patriot Act, which is still set to expire naturally, as far as I know.\r\n>>>>> I see little recourse but to view liberals for what they are: spoiled children incapable of understanding even the simplest lessons of history:\r\n1) No nation ever taxed itself into prosperity. \r\n2) The free market, despite its foibles, is the most efficient way to bring the greatest wealth to the greatest number of people.\r\n3) Government action is the most inefficient way to get anything done and therefore government should be as small and unintrusive as possible, the way the Forefathers intended.\r\n4) Appeasement of enemies never works. Enemies only understand force. Keep killing them until they surrender or are wiped out. \r\n5) Things are \u2018slightly\u2019 different in wartime than peace time.\r\n>>>>> BushCo ain\u2019t perfect, but it\u2019s still the lesser of two evils. After 8 years of no leadership in the White House (only a pollster doofus) I\u2019m glad there\u2019s someone who is willing to step up to the plate. \r\n","author":"Walker, Texas Plumber","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-20 07:49:22","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:47","fileurl":""},{"id":110658,"heading":"What they're like","article":"Hillary Clinton was arrogant and verbally abusive to her security detail. She forbade her daughter, Chelsea, from exchanging pleasantries with them. Sometimes Chelsea, miffed at her mother's obvious conceit and mean spiritedness ignored her demands and exchanged pleasantries regardless, but never in her mother's presence. Chelsea really was a nice, kindhearted, and lovely young lady. The consensus opinion was that Chelsea loved her mom but did not like her.\r\n\r\nHillary Clinton was constantly rude and abrasive to those who were charged to protect her life. Her security detail dutifully did their job, as professionals should, but they all "loathed " her and wanted to be on a different detail. She was hard work because she was so nasty and mean toward her detail. Hillary Clinton was uniformly despised by the secret service as a whole.\r\n\r\nFormer president Bill Clinton was much more amiable than his wife Hillary. Often the secret service would cringe at the verbal attack antics that Hillary would use against her husband, the then president.\r\n\r\nThey were embarrassed for his sake by the manner and frequency in which she verbally insulted him, sometimes in the presence of the secret service, and sometimes behind closed doors. Even behind closed doors Hillary Clinton would scream and holler so loudly that everyone could hear what she was saying. Many felt sorry for President Clinton and most wondered why he tolerated it instead of just divorcing his "attack dog" wife. It was crystal clear that the Clinton's neither liked or respected each other and this was true long before the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Theirs was genuinely a "marriage of convenience."\r\n\r\nChelsea was much closer to her father than her mother, even after the Lewinsky scandal which hurt her gravely. Bill Clinton did in fact have "charisma," and occasionally would smile at or shake hands with his security detail. Still, he always displayed an obvious air of superiority towards them. His security detail uniformly believed him to be disingenuous, false, and that he did nothing without a motive that in some way would enhance his image and political career. They did respect him, unlike his wife, but they did not particularly like him and nobody trusted him. He was polite, but not kind.\r\n\r\nWhat could have been:\r\n\r\nAl Gore was the male version of Hillary Clinton. They were more friendly toward each other than either of them were towards former President Clinton They were not intimate, so please don't read that in. They were very close in a political way. Tipper Gore was generally nice and pleasant. She initially liked Hillary but soon after the election she had her pegged and no longer liked her or associated with her except for events that were politically obligatory.\r\n\r\nAl Gore was far more left wing and very hateful, not just politically opposed, to Republicans than Bill Clinton. Al Gore resented Bill Clinton and thought he was too centrist. He despised all Republicans.\r\n\r\nHis hatred was bitter and this was long before he announced for the presidency. This bitter hatred was something that he and Hillary had very much in common. They often said as much, even in the presence of their security detail. Neither of them trusted Bill Clinton and, the secret service opined, neither of them even liked Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton did have some good qualities where Al Gore and Hillary had none in the view of their security details.\r\n\r\nAL Gore, like Hillary, was very rude and arrogant toward his security detail. He was extremely unappreciative and would not hesitate to scold them in the presence of their peers for minor details over which they had no control. Al Gore also looked down on them in disgust as they finally observed and learned with certainty on one occasion when Al Gore got angry at his offspring and loudly, in their presence, pointed at his security detail and said "do you want to grow up and be like them." Word of this insulting and demeaning verbiage by the former Vice-president quickly spread and he became as despised and disliked by the secret service as Hillary. Most of them prayed that Al Gore would not be elected president and they really did have private small celebrations in ! a few of their homes after President Bush won. This was not necessarily to celebrate President Bush's election, but to celebrate AL Gore's defeat. He was very disliked. Al Gore was not a good and kind person. That he could have been our President may suggest that God was "answering prayers" and looking out for the country with Al Gore's defeat.\r\n\r\nWhat is:\r\n\r\nEveryone in the secret service wants to be on First Lady Laura Bush's detail. Without exception they uniformly concede that she is perhaps the most nice, kind, and genuinely good person they have ever had the privilege of serving. Where Hillary patently refused to allow her picture to be taken with her security detail, Laura Bush doesn't even have to be asked, she offers. She doesn't just shake their hand and say thank you, very often she will give a kind hearted hug to members of her detail to express her appreciation. There is nothing false about her. This is her genuine nature. Laura Bush really is this kind of a person and her security detail considers her to be a "breath of fresh air." They actually love her as a human being. They joke that comparing Laura Bush with Hillary Clinton is like comparing Mother Teresa with the Wicked Witch of the North.\r\n\r\nLikewise, the secret service considers President Bush to be a gem of a man to work for. He always treats them with genuine respect and he always trusts and listens to their expert advice. They especially like the Crawford detail. Every time the president goes to Crawford he has a Bar-B-Q for his security detail and he helps serve them. He eats with them, sits with them, and talks with them. He always asks about their family, the names of which he always remembers, and he of course knows each! of them by their first name and calls them by their first name as a show of affection. They believe that he actually loves his security detail and that he is deeply and genuinely appreciative of their service. They could not like, love, or respect anyone more than President Bush, and most of them did not know they would feel this way until they had an opportunity to work for him and learn that his manner was genuine and consistent. It has never changed in the three years that he has been president. He always treats them with the utmost respect, kindness, and compassion.\r\n\r\nFinally, They secret service still is forming an opinion on John Kerry. They have nothing positive or negative to say that anyone is willing to share as yet. This notwithstanding, they already know what they have in President Bush and they don't want to lose a good thing.\r\n\r\n","author":"SS Insider","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-20 08:15:20","modified":"2004-05-20 08:15:20","fileurl":""},{"id":110664,"heading":"No Iraqi prisoner was tortured. No American cut anyone\u2019s head off.","article":" This is what I like about Wanker. [ Bush Admirer on meth] \r\nHe spews opinions without any basis is reality as the river denial runs strong through the twisted pathways of his mind. I was, as well as the other poster, eagerly awaiting the references to the statement he made about all the good this country has done to outweigh the imperial slaughter done in the name of corporate stock holders.\r\nAll I read from then on was defensive spray like a trapped skunk.\r\nOne has to ponder on the motivation of such an individual.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":109376,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-20 11:03:45","modified":"2013-11-11 00:29:47","fileurl":""},{"id":110679,"heading":"acceptable losses (shleprock and friends)","article":"Confucius sums up your pre-dick-ament, Shleprock:\r\n

\r\n"There are none so blind as those who will not see."<\/B><\/I>\r\n

\r\nYou and the other fellow whine like a bandsaw about how bas it is here in the USA, yet won't leave and won't dare name even one country that comes close to offering you the same rights and freedoms, for fear of an H-bomb of well-deserved ridicule.