{"article":{"id":91652,"heading":"Why Reparations?","author":"InPDUM","created":"2003-10-30 04:26:59","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:14","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:27:14","article":"","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"audio\/mpeg","summary":"Four minute clip from speech by Omali Yeshitela on the significance of reparations. Yeshitela will act as a people\u2019s advocate at the 12th Session of the World Tribunal on Reparations for African People, November 15-16 in Philadelphia. For more information visit www.inpdum.org ","numcomment":36,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/2003\/10\/oyreparations.mp3","filesize":"3.4 mebibytes","article_url":"\/news\/2003\/10\/91652.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":102594,"heading":"wake up!","article":" THOSE NEIGHBORS YOU CONDENSENDINGLY REFER TO AS BLACK ENTREPRENUERS, REPRESENT THE TYPE OF PEOPLE SKILLFULLY PUSHING THE REPARATION ISSUE. AND YOURE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THEYRE " NOT LOOKING FOR HANDOUTS" BUT J-U-S-T-I-C-E. WAKE-UP...CAN O'WORM'S ALREADY OPEN ... WE CANT BE STOPPED!","author":"wippcracker","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-02-09 10:36:18","modified":"2004-02-09 10:36:18","fileurl":""},{"id":107586,"heading":"what a racist","article":"I cannot believe that they would even publish the bus shit you have written. The only comment that I will allow myself to make is in response to "black people shooting each other". First of all you have never seen anything about a child coming to school to shoot up the teachers or other class mates untill you read about some dumb ass white boy doing it first, or some dumb ass white boy thinking he's a vampire and shit like that. Your whole entire comment about black people and reparations is simply based on the fact that you hate black people. I'll bet you never had to work for anything a day in your life. Your ignorance just like many others is the main reason why America will never rise or really ever be the great nation it is so portrayed to be. There is no need to respond to this because I will never view this ridiculous site again.","author":"i'll pray for you","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-12 16:57:05","modified":"2004-04-12 16:57:05","fileurl":""},{"id":107588,"heading":"fresca","article":""Reparations would allow some descendents to create institutions that would be of benefit to themselves. What's wrong with that? "\r\n\r\nWell, for starters, they don't in any way deserve reparations. That's a good place to start.\r\n\r\nWhy not reparations fro the Irish indentured servants. Or the polish. Or the germans.\r\n\r\nAnd how much of these reparations will be paid by the African and Arab slavetraders who captured these slaves and sold them to begin with?\r\n\r\nReparations is an inane idea.\r\n\r\nWill blacks who sit on the boards of corporations and make a fortune have to pay for beniffitting from slavery or will the color of their skin entitle them to even more money?\r\n\r\nWill blacks pay reparations to the rest of us for accounting for a hugely disproportionate level of violent crime?\r\n\r\nProbably one of the dumbest ideas to come down the liberal pike.","author":"uh...","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-12 17:44:31","modified":"2004-04-12 17:44:31","fileurl":""},{"id":107670,"heading":"your ignorance would be startling","article":"But I've read enough and I'm not that surprised.\r\n\r\nPlease, continue with your persecuted-white-man-tale-of-woe. It's funny as hell.\r\n\r\nThe idea that the black people on BODs get there by using "the race card" is absurd. What will you say next? That their IQs top out at some low number and they're unfit to lead?\r\n\r\nYou do make a good point about indentured servants, though. A popularized comparative history of slavery compared to indentured servitude would be useful, and would probably end up giving support to the idea of some form of reparations. Indentured servitude was nominally voluntary, while black slavery fell under a different set of slave laws.\r\n\r\nOne reason why Americans don't take the issue of reparations seriously is because Blacks are still erased from American history, and a Black perspective on American history is virtually unknown.","author":"more rational","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-13 09:19:08","modified":"2004-04-13 09:19:08","fileurl":""},{"id":107678,"heading":"fresca","article":""The idea that the black people on BODs get there by using "the race card" is absurd. "\r\n\r\nI'll start with this one. The "race card" had not even entered my mind. My point was that if a Black was on the BOD of a company which is one of the many to be targeted as having been built by, aided by or profitted from slavery historically, and therefore transferred some of this ill gotten prosperity to this Black, would he or she still be entitled to reparations? What's the cutoff line? Do any Blacks who work and gain from these companies get reparations? After all, they are profitting from slavery as the standard reparation logic goes.\r\n\r\nAnd what about the AFrican and Arab and Dutch and English slave traders? Are they to be simply given a free pass? If you truly want to make reparations for acts committed hundreds of years ago then you damn well better rope everyone involved into it. There are direct African descendents alive today that have much more familial responsibility for slavery than I do, that's for sure.\r\n\r\nAs far as indentured servitude goes, you're right that it was usually initiated voluntarily. To an extent. So I guess that just lowers it a peg on the slavery board.\r\n\r\nLook, I think that slavery, of course, was (and still is in many Middle Eastern countries...don't get me started) an abomination. My problem with reparations is not one of merit. It's one of logistics.\r\n\r\nThere's simply no way for the true victims of slavery (if there even are any anymore..and that's doubtful...I don't believe a "culture" can be a victim) to be given restitution by those who were truly responsible. First of all both parties have been looooooong dead and unless we want to revert to some tribal idea of sins of the father being transferred down the line, who do we target to pay?\r\n\r\nMy bringing up the notion of Blacks paying for their commission of way more than their fair share of violent crime is, of course, ludicrous. Just as ludicrous an idea of the average American (of all races..including Blacks) paying one group of people, based on race, money for something that happened to some of their ancestors.\r\n\r\nFinally, it gets very boring to constantly hear the whines of "racism" everytime someone argues against reparations. It's a cheap defense of a ridiculous idea. ","author":"missed the point as usual","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-13 11:34:08","modified":"2004-04-13 11:34:08","fileurl":""},{"id":107709,"heading":"it's a feasible project","article":"The issue of Blacks who benefit from working in companies that benefitted from slavery is a moot point because they are working there and contributing to the profits of the company. It's not like they're getting a handout at work - they are working, and presumably doing something that enriches the company.\r\n\r\nThe push of reparations can be compared to a lawsuit for back pay. (A theoretical lawsuit.) It would involve tracing what work was done, and what wages were not paid. Things do get murky, but, right now, we have extremely little information (popularly) available about the value of slave labor to the American economy. Any research in this direction would be valuable, not only to undestand history, but to understand how slavery relates to labor conditions today (as well as to slavery today).\r\n\r\nAt the end of this research it could be feasible to implement some kind of reparations project. Conversely, the research may indicate otherwise.\r\n\r\nThe reparations issue has a precedent in reparations and redress for Japanese American internees of WW2. What most people don't know was that there was a parallel class action lawsuit demanding compensation for damages. I think that lawsuit actually pressured the government toward providing token reparations, because the actual damages would have been greater than the cost of reparations checks.\r\n\r\nIf every descendent of a slave got, say, $10,000, that would only be a small fraction of the adjusted value of the lifetime of work performed by their slave ancestors.","author":"more rational","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-13 19:07:10","modified":"2004-04-13 19:07:10","fileurl":""},{"id":107713,"heading":"fresca","article":""The issue of Blacks who benefit from working in companies that benefitted from slavery is a moot point because they are working there and contributing to the profits of the company. It's not like they're getting a handout at work "\r\n\r\nYou've got to pick one side or the other.\r\n\r\nClearly the point I made was referencing Blacks in upper management(BOD members), not just any old employee.\r\n\r\nYou've posted to another thread within the hour about your feelings that management only exists to recieve "fat paychecks" and reap the profits of the working classes efforts. To hear you now try and argue that BLACK upper management is of course different in that THEY are working hard and contributing more so than non-Black management is a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Probably not.\r\n\r\nI still maintain that you'll have a hell of a time finding out who are the descendents of slave holders and profiteers from slavery (after all, I'm not involved and am certainly not going to pay a dime of money) and harder still, finding out which Blacks in the country are actually descendents of slaves (obviously, most aren't). Furthermore, you'll have an even harder time collecting reparations from those oversea ancestors of African, Arab, English and Dutch slave traders.\r\n\r\nAnd even if you can handle all that, you'll then have to pay reparations for every descendent of every other ethnic group who was brutalized and exploited during the early years thru the industrial revolution of this country.\r\n\r\nGood luck.","author":"please more rational.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-13 19:25:03","modified":"2004-04-13 19:25:03","fileurl":""},{"id":107738,"heading":"quick rebuttals","article":""You've posted to another thread within the hour about your feelings that management only exists to recieve "fat paychecks" and reap the profits of the working classes efforts. To hear you now try and argue that BLACK upper management is of course different in that THEY are working hard and contributing more so than non-Black management is a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Probably not."\r\n\r\nI'm not really understanding your argument.\r\n\r\nThere are wealthy black people - that doesn't mean they were not negatively affected by slavery. Also, I didn't say that they are contributing more than non-black management. They are just participating in (and benefitting from) past slavery the same as anyone else in the company. And lastly - the BOD is not management. The BOD is the group that tells the CEO what to do, and is the interface to the shareholders. The BOD doesn't work - they meet. Black BOD members make up, what, two-millionths of the African American population. Five millionths. Maybe 1\/100,000 th, if you count every bogus little company that doesn't make money? The black upper class are an exception that doesn't have a bearing on the general argument about reparations for slavery.\r\n\r\nI don't believe that I have to explain this to an alleged conservative.\r\n\r\nLook at it this way. Suppose that your employer systematically took $100 from you last year. You keep working for them, because you need the job, but, also, you figure that in the big picture, you benefit from staying there. That doesn't mean that you weren't robbed. Then, suppose a group comes along to sue the company for that money, and other money taken in the same way. They prevail, and hand out checks. The fact that you're working there won't affect the fact that you deserve a check for $100.\r\n\r\n"I still maintain that you'll have a hell of a time finding out who are the descendents of slave holders and profiteers from slavery (after all, I'm not involved and am certainly not going to pay a dime of money) and harder still, finding out which Blacks in the country are actually descendents of slaves (obviously, most aren't). Furthermore, you'll have an even harder time collecting reparations from those oversea ancestors of African, Arab, English and Dutch slave traders."\r\n\r\nWe won't know about the research until we try. The number of individuals involved is large, but well within our ability to develop databases to record the information. We have databases to record our supermarket purchases. The slave population was smaller than the contemporary supermarket shopper population.\r\n\r\nSlaves were property, and thus, accounted for as such. They were insured, like the way you'd insure machinery you're using to produce something. It's a matter of uncovering accounting information, and inputting it into a database. This is rather Orwellian, but, no more so than "shopper club" cards.\r\n\r\nFinally, the scope of the argument is the US paying for reparations. The other countries can get involved if they wish.\r\n\r\nThe payments for reparations, if they are taken from taxes, would be paid for not only by you, but also by the actual descendents themselves. It would be a one-time redistribution of funds to address a past wrong. Perhaps minors and others would be ineligible.\r\n\r\n"And even if you can handle all that, you'll then have to pay reparations for every descendent of every other ethnic group who was brutalized and exploited during the early years thru the industrial revolution of this country. "\r\n\r\nThat's not true. This concerns only slavery.\r\n\r\nPS - I think that workers should demand fair compensation for their work, no matter the color of their boss. It's hard to do... It's well known that bosses of color like to exploit their own, and pit them against people from other groups.","author":"more rational","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-14 01:00:34","modified":"2004-04-14 01:00:34","fileurl":""},{"id":109511,"heading":"reparations","article":"I am half native american and half black. For one I grew up with no hatred towards any race, because the history of my races was barely covered in school. On the other note I do notice a wide gap between the government and ethnic groups. I begun to study my history on my own and other ethnic groups as well. Cacausians have always seeked power by obtaining it in exploting all races even themselves. As for reparations for blacks and indians I believe it is well deserved, but we will never receive it, because the world is dominated by white power. Everything that is going on secretly within and outside the government is based on control. If you look through history reparations were suppose to be given to blacks in the late 1800's,but was never executed. I'm sure it is in the never to be seen files of the government. Don't you think it is funny of all the racial crimes commited by America an apology was never given in the slightest, except by Bill Clinton. He was immediatly was denounced after. Ethnic people are referred to as minorities and whites are the majorities. Funny, there is four times more of us then it is of them. I honestly believe they have plans to execute slavery again. They did it before and they will do it again, because they have weakened everyone's mind to think as individuals and not as a group. As for reparations, we can fight an fight, but they do not listen and justify everything by the bible and current laws.","author":"lasai","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-05 19:35:01","modified":"2004-05-05 19:35:01","fileurl":""},{"id":109521,"heading":"40 acres for a fool","article":"It's technically possible to give every American Black man, woman and child one million dollars tomorrow. \r\n\r\nHell, even double that amount, 80 million, is a drop in the bucket.\r\n\r\nIt would be money well spent if everyone who agrees to receive reparations would, from then on, cease to receive any special government benefits or treatment, forever. \r\n\r\nIt would never happen that way, since one week after the money was paid out, the spectrum of high, low and medium incomes would return, as the smart continued to save $$ and the poor blew it all it in casinos.\r\n","author":"mint condition","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-05-05 22:52:49","modified":"2004-05-05 22:52:49","fileurl":""},{"id":91713,"heading":"You'll never get a dime","article":"Reparations for what? You have received 40 years of reparations via affirmative action, food stamps, welfare, Medicaid, public housing and all the other "special peoples'" entitlements. Perhaps if so many people in the colored community (oops- "community of color") would stop shooting each other over drug deals you might have time to finish school, get a job, and other things that people actually DO to be part of this society. NO MORE SPECIAL RIGHTS. ","author":"tired of it","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 15:56:00","modified":"2003-10-30 15:56:00","fileurl":""},{"id":91725,"heading":"You Motherfucker","article":"I cannot believe you have the audacity to say: \r\n\r\n>>You have received 40 years of reparations via affirmative action, food stamps, welfare, Medicaid, public housing and all the other "special peoples'" entitlements.<< \r\n\r\nIt is this type of racial stereotyping and ignorance that prevents a lot of things from getting anywhere.\r\n\r\nAre you saying that other ethnic groups haven't been benefited by affirmative action ? \r\n\r\nDO YOU EVEN KNOW the percentage of white Americans that are on welfare ? That receive food stamps ?\r\n\r\nDo you think black people are the only ones living in public housing ?\r\n\r\nThere are NO white, hispanic, asian,or european people using Medicaid ? \r\n\r\nYou are a total prejudiced (not racist) ass. \r\n\r\nNative Americans, and Asians receive the same "special people" benefits as do white and black people, but THEY were (are) given reparations ! \r\n\r\nThe slaves built this country, built the railroads, most of the colonial homes in the South, and picked the cotton and food that Americans ate. Blacks haven't been GIVEN one fucking dime.\r\n\r\n>>If they would stop shooting each other over drug deals you might have time to finish school, get a job<<\r\n\r\nWow, that speaks for itself, considering I'm a prep-school educated, well-spoken, gainfully employed, college student black-with one of your white women as my girlfriend-thanks. Not all of my fellow black people have the same attitude, as I said in a comment I posted yesterday. \r\n\r\nYou exhibit that same "my shit doesn't stink" attitude that most W.A.S.P.s in America do. \r\n\r\nIf blacks don't deserve reparations after being brought IN CHAINS to this country, forced into servitude, denied basic human rights, forced to give up their identities,feed and raise YOUR ancestors' children, to be "freed" into a country where they were beaten, lynched, TERRORIZED by the KKK and various other groups, denied the right to vote, denied the right to own land, bear arms,and assemble peacecably......then who does deserve reparations ?\r\n\r\nI hope you can give me an answer without calling me a "nigger". Thanks. ","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 17:00:18","modified":"2003-10-30 17:00:18","fileurl":""},{"id":91734,"heading":"Reps","article":"Reperations for Native Americans first!","author":"yklb","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 17:34:44","modified":"2003-10-30 17:34:44","fileurl":""},{"id":91737,"heading":"Brandon","article":"Before I get into this, let me ask you a prelim question.\r\n\r\nWhere do you actually stand on the whole reparations question.\r\n\r\nObviously, I just read your post but I want to know how much is your actual conviction and how much is just a reaction to who you were answering.\r\n\r\nJust wanna get off on the right foot.","author":"fresca","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 17:43:02","modified":"2003-10-30 17:43:02","fileurl":""},{"id":91739,"heading":"Brandon","article":""Are you saying that other ethnic groups haven't been benefited by affirmative action ?"\r\n\r\nNo, that's not what he said. He said blacks have benefited from these programs. He didn't say blacks exclusively.\r\n\r\n"If blacks don't deserve reparations after being brought IN CHAINS to this country, forced into servitude, denied basic human rights, forced to give up their identities,feed and raise YOUR ancestors' children, to be "freed" into a country where they were beaten, lynched, TERRORIZED by the KKK and various other groups, denied the right to vote, denied the right to own land, bear arms,and assemble peacecably......then who does deserve reparations ?"\r\n\r\nI agree. However, no one now living actually lived under all the conditions you describe. \r\n\r\nFurthermore, compare the standard of living of African-Americans with Africans in the nations that sold their people into slavery. I'd say it's rather higher, wouldn't you?\r\n\r\nOne final point: are the nations that sold their people into slavery being asked for reparations?\r\n\r\nOr only the "rich" nations? ","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 17:43:37","modified":"2003-10-30 17:43:37","fileurl":""},{"id":91751,"heading":"For Fresca","article":"Sup ?\r\n\r\nI, personally, couldn't give a rat's ass whether or not African Americans received reparations or not. I'll only elaborate on that depending on how you reply. \r\n\r\nWhether I believe "we" should recieve reparations is a moot point-like the first comment said, it's never going to happen. \r\n\r\nI do however, believe that if they were "rewarded" (again,they won't be) it would be more justified than the Indians and the Asian Americans that were here-if you think that what they endured was worse than 350 years of slavery-and in the hundred years afterwards...then I don't know what to say to you. \r\n\r\nI live in Palm Beach (Palm Beach Gardens) and I have several Native American friends who live in Okeechobee-it's about an hour north of here. There are several Indian reservations there, so I know firsthand what good reparations can do...but many people waste the money because they'll just get another check soon enough. \r\n\r\n ","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 19:31:13","modified":"2003-10-30 19:31:13","fileurl":""},{"id":91757,"heading":"Nonanarchist","article":"<>\r\n\r\nAnd I agree with YOU there non-no one living now lived under those conditions. \r\n\r\nBut, (and I hate to drag them into this again) Native Americans are still receiving reparations. None of them is living in the conditions I described, either. \r\n\r\n<>\r\n\r\nOkay, it's better-if you consider better meaning we were given homes, food, education, and a chance to thrive in a GREAT nation...(all while being considered inferior, lynched, segregated, and I say again, terrorized-but that all has become very, very politically incorrect, and rarely happens)\r\n\r\nLook, it's the best here for African Americans than almost any other place on Earth-I'm hard-pressed to think of one. But that doesn't change the fact that slavery in, and of itself is one of the ugliest events in history, that's all. I don't think people really acknowledge that. \r\n\r\nBut you don't have to acknowledge it-it's a free fuckin' country.\r\n","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 19:53:35","modified":"2003-10-30 19:53:35","fileurl":""},{"id":91758,"heading":"BT","article":">it would be more justified than the Indians\r\n\r\nUnderstand your idiot liberal comrades here. They believe the European whites stole the land from the Native Americans. So, given that's how it all started, then Native Americans deserve reperations first.\r\n\r\nThe sticking point being, if I were the Native Americans and these idiots were in charge, I'd tell them "We don't want reparations. You stole our land. We want you to leave." That would be fun to watch the left-wing idiots explain how it's too late now, that they're already here and they're not leaving. Oh yeah. They'll complain about the land being "stolen", but they won't do anything to give it back. They'd just rather pay them money to shut them up. Hypocrites!","author":"yklb","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 19:55:36","modified":"2003-10-30 19:55:36","fileurl":""},{"id":91761,"heading":"HOLD UP !","article":"Okay, time out. The LEFT and RIGHT wing don't have a say in this conversation. We were doing well talking about the ACTUAL topic. what side are you on anyway ??\r\n\r\n ","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:03:09","modified":"2003-10-30 20:03:09","fileurl":""},{"id":91763,"heading":"Reps","article":"Reparations for Native Americans first!","author":"yklb","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:08:21","modified":"2003-10-30 20:08:21","fileurl":""},{"id":91764,"heading":"DUDE !","article":"THEY DO GET REPARATIONS YOU FUCKING IDIOT !","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:15:52","modified":"2003-10-30 20:15:52","fileurl":""},{"id":91768,"heading":"BT","article":"Caps off. Calm down, son. You're acting like.....well.... a immature 20 year old. Which, if you haven't gathered, is how most 20 yr olds act, that is to say, immature.\r\n\r\nThe Native Americans have not received reparations. You've apparently never visited some of the poorer reservations and seen how they live.\r\n\r\nCasino gambling is not reparations.\r\n\r\nIn that case, former slaves got 40 acres and a mule, so they received reparations.\r\n\r\nBesides, reparations aren't going to happen. Why should I or anyone else pay for what others did when we had no control over it? Exactly. We shouldn't.","author":"judge","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:21:45","modified":"2003-10-30 20:21:45","fileurl":""},{"id":91773,"heading":"Wow, you should read the rest of the comments, Judge","article":"Calm Down son....wow, you sound so authoritative. I mean, with a name like "Judge" you oughta be. My caps are for emphasis, thanks. \r\n\r\nAnd that 40 acres and a mule shit is laughable. Kind of like that whole "A chicken in every pot bullshit", or whatever the fuck it was. \r\n\r\nYou've been to some of the "poorer" reservations?\r\n\r\nHave you ever been to some of the "richer" ones ?\r\n\r\nI have. Obviously the Native Americans haven't all been "compensated", but they've gotten far more than blacks as a whole. \r\n\r\nAgain, like I wrote above, I don't give a shit about reparations being paid to African-Americans. And I GUARANTEE you that 97 percent of other blacks don't give a shit either way. Some might even ask you: What the fuck is a reparation?"","author":"Brandon T.","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:36:28","modified":"2003-10-30 20:36:28","fileurl":""},{"id":91776,"heading":"dbb","article":"That's a funny website! Thanx for posting it.","author":"phil","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 20:42:34","modified":"2003-10-30 20:42:34","fileurl":""},{"id":91784,"heading":"Debunking the argument","article":"Brandon: "Are you saying that other ethnic groups haven't been benefited by affirmative action ?"\r\n\r\nnonanarchist: No, that's not what he said. He said blacks have benefited from these programs. He didn't say blacks exclusively.\r\n\r\nThen that means Affirmative Action, just like welfare and other social services are not reparations for slavery because the majority of people benefiting from them are not black. Get a new argument.\r\n\r\n[...]\r\n\r\n"I agree. However, no one now living actually lived under all the conditions you describe."\r\n\r\nSo.\r\n\r\n"Furthermore, compare the standard of living of African-Americans with Africans in the nations that sold their people into slavery. I'd say it's rather higher, wouldn't you?"\r\n\r\nAgain so. I'd say the standard of living for Europeans and Euro-Americans is higher because of slavery, don't you think?\r\n\r\n"One final point: are the nations that sold their people into slavery being asked for reparations? Or only the "rich" nations?"\r\n\r\nProbably not. "Rich", i.e. white nations are the ones being told to fork over reparations because they are the ones who benefited (and still benefit) from slavery. \r\n\r\nAnd what does Native Americans deserving reparations have to do with African Americans also deserving reparations? Are these tired arguments the best you can do?","author":"white flight = white theft","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 21:17:12","modified":"2003-10-30 21:17:12","fileurl":""},{"id":91787,"heading":"white flight = white theft","article":">And what does Native Americans deserving reparations have to do with African Americans also deserving reparations?\r\n\r\nI'm saying I would approve of considering reparations provided Native Americans receive them first since it was their land that was stolen in the first place. Only after Native Americans receive reparations would I consider looking into reparations for African Americans.\r\n\r\nIf Native Americans do not want reparations, but rather they want their land back, we should give it back to them without question. If this means the dissolustionment of the US Gov't, such that there would be nothing mnonitarily to give African Americans, so be it.","author":"night train=poverty","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 21:32:57","modified":"2003-10-30 21:32:57","fileurl":""},{"id":91790,"heading":"Brandon","article":"" But that doesn't change the fact that slavery in, and of itself is one of the ugliest events in history, that's all. I don't think people really acknowledge that."\r\n\r\nI wholeheartedly agree. No matter who was enslaved, no matter who traded and used humans as animals, it's the darkest blot on mankind.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 21:49:52","modified":"2003-10-30 21:49:52","fileurl":""},{"id":91793,"heading":"white flight","article":""Then that means Affirmative Action, just like welfare and other social services are not reparations for slavery because the majority of people benefiting from them are not black."\r\n\r\nGot stats to prove that? I don't care either way; I just like to see people back up theri claims. I'm a big fan of separating fact from opinion.\r\n\r\n"Again so. I'd say the standard of living for Europeans and Euro-Americans is higher because of slavery, don't you think?"\r\n\r\nNo, I don't. In America, slavery was mostly used in southern agriculture. Most of the wealth of the nation comes from industry. That's why the north opposed slavery; no economic advantage for them from it, not to mention the obvious moral reasons. \r\n\r\n"...they are the ones who benefited (and still benefit) from slavery."\r\n\r\nSTILL benefitting? How, exactly? \r\n\r\n"And what does Native Americans deserving reparations have to do with African Americans also deserving reparations?"\r\n\r\nDunno. I haven't said a word about native Americans. Do you really think African-Americans "deserve" reparations?","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 21:58:06","modified":"2003-10-30 21:58:06","fileurl":""},{"id":91796,"heading":"two cents","article":"Finally (well not "finally, but still...) an actual converstion without any mention of proxies and ip's.\r\n\r\nThat slavery is the most heinous part of our history (including the forced removal of Native Americans...sorry) is a fucking given. That said, there are other chapters of American history and exploitations and ills (Including the suffering of Native Americans) that are ALMOST as horrendous but noty quite there. Again, Native Americans got it bad. The Industruial revolution and the wealth it generated was built upon the backs of scores and scores of Irish, German, Polish Asian, etc. immigrants, Almost all of which were entirely used at the behest of a select few.\r\n\r\nSo, while slavery was the LEADER in heinous chapters in American history, it certainly didn't have a monoploy on suffering.\r\n\r\nThe trouble with Reparations is who actually gets it. Only blacks. Only Blacks who can prove a direct line to slaves. How about Irish Americans who can show a direct link to exploited workers.\r\n\r\nThe can of worms reparations opens up is HUGE.\r\n\r\nFurthermore, to give aid and compensation to a select group of people based on race to the exclusion of the rest of society is clearly unconstitutional, it would seem.\r\n\r\nI don't know. It seems like it's simply an idea that should have been enforced about 150 years ago. Unfortunately, it would create more inequity than it would eliminate at this point.","author":"fresca","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 22:03:47","modified":"2003-10-30 22:03:47","fileurl":""},{"id":91802,"heading":"Repafuckthis!","article":"The "reparations" thing is just another topic to give them something to bitch about. When you're unsuccessful in life, it's a lot easier to blame someone or something else other than yourself. If you're living hand to mouth, it's because of the evil corporations. If your black and you're not doing as well as you think you should, it because the man is keeping you down. It's a bunch of whinners who would rather bitch about life's circumstances rather than actually trying to work at bettering themselves. It's what America has come to. These people would have never made it 150-200 years ago because the welfare state wasn't there to prop them up whenever they fell. These people would have never been able to cross the prairies and conquered a new land. Those people were do-ers. They had a do-or-die attitude. They weren't quitters. These people cry and moan if their hands get dirty. They're reactionaries. The idea of actually taking the bull by the horns is as foreign to these people as the idea of hard work. They couldn't handle it. They are the dependent ones, the ones who bite the hand that feeds them and demand that the ones bitten apologize. Fortunately, the good people who build and shape this country everyday have caught on to their whinnyness and have told them to either pick themselves up and start helping with the work or get the fuck out and don't be asking for any more favors. Bout damn time.","author":"proactive","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 22:17:39","modified":"2003-10-30 22:17:39","fileurl":""},{"id":91865,"heading":"Nothing new here","article":"The 'free lunch' crowd has been around forever and will be there in the future too. \r\n\r\nThe idea of reparations is ridiculous of course. But it's just another 'free lunch' pitch from this particular crowd. \r\n\r\nI see more and more successful black folks in American society all the time. There are a couple of young successful black entrepreneurs in our building. They're great. They're not out looking for handouts or reparations. They have the pedal to the metal and are making something of themselves.","author":"Adult Supervisor","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 03:50:28","modified":"2003-10-31 03:50:28","fileurl":""},{"id":92221,"heading":"thanks for condescending...","article":"There's nothing like a series of condescending comments to win some good people over to your side. Keep up the good work, dorks.\r\n\r\nReparations are an interesting idea worth exploring in more detail. Reparations would allow some descendents to create institutions that would be of benefit to themselves. What's wrong with that?\r\n\r\nI had a coffee at a Magic Johnson-owned Starbucks. It was making money in a minority neighborhood which the big chain neglected, due, most likely, to the kind of subtle ingrained racism that's part of any society dominated by one group who also happen to be the majority group.\r\n\r\nAlso, reparations would expose numerous mundane facts about slavery, like the fact present-day insurance companies sold property insurance policies on slaves. It's a well-known, but still shocking fact.\r\n\r\nNew, popular knowledge would be a nice side effect from doing research on reparations.","author":"more rational","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 10:46:17","modified":"2003-11-01 10:46:17","fileurl":""},{"id":92355,"heading":"Reply to 'Less Rational"","article":"Less Rational - I think every liberal with deeply held convictions should be able to contribute to a 'Reparations Fund' if they so choose.\r\n\r\nBut no funds should come from the US Treasury and not 1 tax dollar should be blown on that kind of folly.","author":"Adult Supervisor","parent_id":91652,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 22:32:08","modified":"2003-11-01 22:32:08","fileurl":""}]}