{"article":{"id":91008,"heading":"DEATH THREATS FOR BUSH-NAZI REPORTER","author":"adrian more","created":"2003-10-27 14:06:08","modified":"2004-04-02 16:22:42","last_modified":"Fri, 02 Apr 2004 23:22:42","article":"

A Letter from John Buchanan... Buchanan has received hundreds of credible death threats and is now living under 24-hour police protection.

Letter from John Buchanan - Author of Bush - Nazi Link Confirmed

Now living under 24-hour police protection after hundreds

of credible death threats



TO: Jonathan Salant, Associated Press

CC: Sandy Johnson, Joe Magruder, Associated Press

Jonathan,

As you and your colleagues will see below, Geocities.com has noted editorially that AP \"spun\" the Bush-Nazi story.

I find it interesting and encouraging that such a reputable and generally impartial Web site would take such a clear stance. It turns out, based on the many e-mails I have been receiving from all over the world -- a group of law students in Kenya, a Pakistani office worker, a scholar in England, fellow journalists here in the US -- that a wide berth of readers and thinkers share that view.

I do as well.

The more I have thought about it, the more troubled I am that, given my still dire circumstances in light of my danger and anxiety, you have not even had the decency to contact me and hear my thoughts and feelings by direct interchange, in private. Therefore, I have chosen to \"go public\" with this communication in the hope of expediting the process of having you and AP acknowledge the truth -- and your own mis-reporting.

This is a vitally important story, as you will soon see, and it will not die and fade away because you and AP deign it so.

I am aware by cc of some of the e-mails being sent to you in defense of me and the New Hampshire Gazette, as well as truth and accuracy in reporting.

I am therefore challenging you and AP, in public view, to do one of two things, as I can see no other possibility now.

1) Either DISPROVE my reporting in the New Hampshire Gazette, by whatever credible means you can, or

2) CORRECT THE RECORD officially with regard to your inexplicably watered down and factually inaccurate story, as related in my e-mail last weekend and forwarded to Steve Fowle at NHG.

Your worst inaccuracy, however, was your general reduction of the seriousness of the facts by the \"only one of seven directors\" defense.

The Bush family has used that for years. It is NOT TRUE. The facts show that Bush and Harriman ran the day to day operations of UBC and all its clients and related assets, for six more years AFTER THE WAR and involving Switzerland, Panama, Brazil and Argentina, where Thyssen died in 1951.

Your account of Thyssen's war experiences were 100% wrong. You should have asked me or Mr. Loftus as the only true \"experts\" in the world on this at the moment.

You could have been the third, and done some great and important reporting with regard to this missing history and its clear and present implications.

Instead, you went for a clumsily executed whitewash.



Why?

There will be a National Media Town Hall meeting in Washington in November, after my third story appears, which deals explicitly with the 60-year cover-up, including the two months it took to finally end it with Mr. Fowle, the true hero here in my opinion. Instead of quoting Mr. Fowle on an important point about the fading journalism tradition in this country, you quoted an irrelevant observation from a college professor.

Worse, you limited your entire story to just one seizure

(UBC in October 1942) when there were 22 more between 1942

(prior to UBC) and 1951.

How could you not have reported that?

Mr. Fowle and I and my supporters were concerned you would \"scoop\" us with our differing news cycles and beat us to the never before reported stuff I have in this Friday's NHG. To not have done so runs counter to any reporter's killer instincts on a big story.

I trust that in due time, you will explain your reasoning on this or that someone will on AP's behalf.

I can be reached at (305) 535-9606 if you'd like to talk. Mr.

Fowle can be reached at (603) 433-9898.

You might also want to contact John Loftus at LoftusHome@cs.com<\/a>.

I trust you can understand that this is not personal. It is an issue of vital national interest and given my investment to date in it, I can not turn back until the whole truth and nothing but the truth is out.

I hope to hear from you and get your cooperation in that effort.

Thank you.

---------

Background



The Geocities Site Buchanan refers to. (Basically a reprint of the AP story plus a LOT more information. Click on NEXT PAGE at the bottom.)

http:\/\/www.geocities.com\/bushfamilynazis\/<\/a>

SOURCE:

Disinfotainment Today

http:\/\/www.disinfotainmenttoday.com\/<\/a>

adap2k

-

BUSH-NAZI LINK CONFIRMED

Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's

Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor

by John Buchanan (Exclusive to the New Hampshire Gazette)

WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial

by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in

The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that

Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush,

served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative

for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his \"enemy national\" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush

and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger

brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George

Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather,

continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.

No Story?

For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported

by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have

appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of \"official\" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.

The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.

The Summer of '42

The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S.

enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of

offices at 39 Broadway in New York under the supervision of

Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran simultaneously in

the New York Herald-Tribune and Washington Post on July 31,

1941. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for

nearly eight months.

\"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank,\" declared the front-page Herald-Tribune headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as \"Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago.\"

In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.

The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested

Thyssen's U.S. \"nest egg\" in fact belonged to \"Nazi bigwigs\" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.

Business is Business

The \"bank,\" founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped

overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.

The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman

as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which

they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential

FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the

Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated. After the \"Hitler's Angel\" article was published Bush and Harriman

made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial

Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.

Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S.

entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it. Brown Brothers Harriman sent letters to the government seeking reconsideration of the seizures by using false information.

UBC's original group of business associates included George

Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather,

who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in

1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to

Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and

investment operations, which were largely based on critical

war resources such as steel and coal.

The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also

included partnership with another German titan who supported

Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to prison.

The Family Business

In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter,

Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the

private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co.,

also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm

that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest

private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.

However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman,

Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact \"nominees,\" or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.

Seized

On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the

Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its

assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting

Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.

In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the

first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities,

Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also

signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC,

Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to

take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses

- Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261)

and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp. (Vesting Order No. 259).

The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes

and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury bonds, to their foreign clients overseas between 1931-33, as Hitler engineered his rise to power.

Still No Story?

Since 1942, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush

family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media

entity reported on or even investigated the allegations,

despite careful documentation by the authors. Major

booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was

dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors

struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That

the book was published by Lyndon LaRouche's organization

undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change

the facts.

The essence of the story has been posted for years

on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and

TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to

have independently confirmed it.

In the 1990s, former U.S. Justice Department Nazi war

crimes prosecutor John Loftus, now honorary president

of the Florida Holocaust Museum, wrote a book and launched

a web site (http:\/\/www.john-loftus.com<\/a>) which did breakthrough

reporting, including establishing the link between Prescott

Bush, Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and forced

labor at Auschwitz. Although the widely-respected Loftus

established a successful international speaking career with

his information, no U.S. newspaper or major TV news

program acknowledged his decade of work, nor did he ever

see many of the recently released documents.

Meanwhile, the mainstream media have apparently made no

attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the

allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family.

Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such

Internet sites or \"unauthorized\" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.

Loyal Defenders

The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their

White House correspondent Byron York, entitled \"Annals of

Bush-Hating.\" It begins mockingly: \"Are you aware of the

murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the

entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi

sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know,

by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?\"

York goes on to discredit the \"Bush is a moron\" IQ hoax,

but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.

The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29

by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred

to \"Bush-o-phobes on the Internet\" who \"repeat preposterous

claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections.\"

Poles Tackle the Topic Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the \"Bush Nazi past\" in its March 5, 2003

edition. The item reported that \"the Bush family reaped

rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz

concentration camp,\" according to a copyrighted

English-language translation from Scoop Media

(http:\/\/www.scoop.co.nz<\/a>).

The story also reported the seizure of the various

Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News,

CNN, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington

Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, as well as

Knight-Ridder Newspapers, have repeatedly declined to

investigate the story when information regarding discovery

of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday,

August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff,

famous for his reporting of big scoops during the

Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice

to accept an exclusive story based on the documents

from the archives.

Aftermath

In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate,

with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past.

There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the

Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns

conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush,

or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention

in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in

November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in

The Boston Globe in 2001.

John Buchanan is an award-winning and internationally

published journalist and investigative reporter with 33

years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington

and Miami. His work has appeared in more than 50

newspapers, magazines and books. He can be reached

by e-mail at: jtwg@bellsouth.net<\/a>



http:\/\/www.nhgazette.com\/cgi-bin\/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=NN_Bush_Nazi%20Link<\/a>



-



www.disinfotainmenttoday.com









<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"new hampshire gazette reporter - tha last free journalist in the us - under 24-hr police "protection"","numcomment":93,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/10\/91008.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":106818,"heading":""What Goes UP, Must Come Down, Watch Those Nazis Heads SS Spinnin Round","article":"Anarchy is their goal and martial law is their design. Who will it be Kerry or Bush? Who will it be, us or them?\r\n\r\nThe LA VA is doing forced experiments and subversive procedures. The National Treasury Employees Union is their tool and their premise. Dump the NTEU...Take a look at the website. \r\n\r\nSome of my ancestors fled Europe for what? More of this Shee-it? Tick Tock Gotta Rock, Four Five Take a Dive, Six Seven America's No heaven, Eight Nine Bush Sr. is the devils behind, Ten Eleven Goin to Heaven...Abroad Baby\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.angelfire.com\/zine2\/democracyordeath\/","author":"G. W. Bush","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2004-04-02 16:22:42","modified":"2004-04-02 16:22:42","fileurl":""},{"id":91090,"heading":"violence and the bourgeois state","article":" First they ask you nicely to do this or not to do that. Then they give you a warning, written or otherwise, if this doesn't work. If this fails they send the military, the police, the goons, or the company security officers to do the dirty work and show you that the gloves are off. All authority in this society rests, in the last analysis, upon violence. Ignore this reality at your peril.","author":"one who knows","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-27 21:37:16","modified":"2003-10-27 21:37:16","fileurl":""},{"id":91124,"heading":"Source of Authority","article":"In the US all authority rests on the consent of the people to be governed. The people authorise the use of force, ina controlled and reasonable manner, to protect their lives and property.\r\n\r\ni don't think anybody has a problem with that - unless they live in a plastic bubble and are unaware of some of the lowlife scum among our species.","author":"Flubber","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 01:22:08","modified":"2003-10-28 01:22:08","fileurl":""},{"id":91228,"heading":"flubber's flawed","article":">>In the US all authority rests on the consent of the people to be governed. >>:\r\n\r\noh yeah,maybe that's why there's an unelected pres.\r\n\r\nmaybe that's why 40 to 50 % of the electorate regularly abstains from voting - if they even register at all in the first place.\r\n\r\nmaybe that's why untold millions of aliens get taxation without representation.\r\n\r\nmaybe that's why nazi arnold was elected by an amazing...14,5 % of the cali electorate!!!\r\n\r\nthe us is NOT a democracy - because a democracy's main feature ought to be par condicio - that is,equal daily time amount for ALL opinions where it matters for today's majority-consensus shaping:\r\non prime time mass tv.\r\n\r\nthe us is a scheindemkratie - fascism is a simpler name for the game.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 16:36:50","modified":"2003-10-28 16:36:50","fileurl":""},{"id":91278,"heading":"all authority rests on the consent of the governed","article":" Why don't you go to Washington and tell some high-powered lobbyists that. They will be so amused that they might buy you a drink.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 18:03:30","modified":"2003-10-28 18:03:30","fileurl":""},{"id":91288,"heading":"thanx meyer london","article":"try and show up more often if you will - there's a daily war ragin'g here daily against the bushiite moles,and we could use each other's help...","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 18:15:37","modified":"2003-10-28 18:15:37","fileurl":""},{"id":91290,"heading":"^","article":"That's right. The fate of the world will depend upon what happens daily at LA-IMC.","author":"Lu Lu Land","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 18:17:07","modified":"2003-10-28 18:17:07","fileurl":""},{"id":91297,"heading":"ku klux land","article":"not quite indeed - but if busharon hires 2 or 3 multinick shills like you to cycle-spam leftwing thinking on la indy 24\/7,than it means it's not so irrelevant to spread freedom here after all...\r\n\r\nget the drift moley?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 18:43:11","modified":"2003-10-28 18:43:11","fileurl":""},{"id":91308,"heading":"^","article":"You ARE fucked in the membrane.","author":"Lu Lu Land","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 19:57:33","modified":"2003-10-28 19:57:33","fileurl":""},{"id":91313,"heading":"hey ku klux land...","article":"...if you think that your ad hominem device is any replacement for your total lack of counteraguments,we have to tell you:\r\n\r\nit only makes you more like a stool.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 20:32:02","modified":"2003-10-28 20:32:02","fileurl":""},{"id":91320,"heading":"hmmm","article":">> oh yeah,maybe that's why there's an unelected pres.\r\n\r\n- However you have collectively have given consent to be ruled by your "unelected pres". A good example is that the other candidate admitted he was the president.. \r\n\r\n>> maybe that's why 40 to 50 % of the electorate regularly abstains from voting - if they even register at all in the first place.\r\n\r\nNot voting is effectively giving consent to others to vote on your behalf. However you (collectively) give consent to be ruled by the state in lots of other areas besides just voting.\r\n\r\n>> maybe that's why nazi arnold was elected by an amazing...14,5 % of the cali electorate!!!\r\n\r\n- Isnt that more democratic than sifting through the candidates until you find two that look basically the same (good for catching the swing voter) and then having an election between them? You should like this method otherwise you dont have a dogs show of getting anyone anywhere near as far left as you into a position of power.\r\n\r\n>> the us is NOT a democracy - because a democracy's main feature ought to be par condicio - that is,equal daily time amount for ALL opinions where it matters for today's majority-consensus shaping:on prime time mass tv.\r\n\r\nThe problem is what do you define as an opinion. there are infinite possibilities for opinions. some are very stupid and some are more logical. deciding which are valid for your equal time on tv will be difficult and even if it was possible there would be a bias towards the theories that have the most variation (and probably the least reliable) because they would get the most air time.\r\n\r\nOf course the current system is based on "entertainment value" it isnt all that great but probably just a bit better than the previous method and most others I can think of.\r\n\r\n>> the us is a scheindemkratie - fascism is a simpler name for the game.\r\n\r\nLook around the world. you should save the word "facism" for states taht are worse.. OR you should admit that you believe ALL states are "facist" (thereby totally devaluing the term)","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:02:23","modified":"2003-10-28 21:02:23","fileurl":""},{"id":91322,"heading":"no scottie","article":">>you have collectively have given consent to be ruled by your "unelected pres".>>:\r\n\r\ni never did. i dunno who did or how you can assert such a thing. ","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:17:02","modified":"2003-10-28 21:17:02","fileurl":""},{"id":91323,"heading":"scottie no","article":">>Not voting is effectively giving consent to others to vote on your behalf.>>:\r\n\r\nno:\r\n\r\n1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls,not only in florida,by bush's thugs.\r\n\r\n2.as for those who CHOOSE not to vote,you better ask THEM why they don't vote - could it be they've lost all faith in the system - especially given the lack of any real alternative?\r\n\r\n3.aliens who pay takes but can't vote are a betrayal of the us founding battlecry:\r\nNO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!\r\n\r\nREMEMBER SCOTTIE?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:21:31","modified":"2003-10-28 21:21:31","fileurl":""},{"id":91325,"heading":"NO AND AGAIN NO","article":">>- Isnt that more democratic than sifting through the candidates until you find two that look basically the same (good for catching the swing voter) and then having an election between them? You should like this method otherwise you dont have a dogs show of getting anyone anywhere near as far left as you into a position of power.>>:\r\n\r\ni have a much better idea:\r\n\r\n1.ban lobbying and soft or hard money - the cancer of democracy\r\n\r\n2.give all candidates par condicio,ie equal time amount of daily air time on mass tv\r\n\r\n3.state or fed-founded campaigns,free air time\r\n\r\n4.let voters choose among all candidates,but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy\r\n\r\n5.ban computer voting and punching machines \r\nvoting in a democracy must be as simple as a 5 year old would understand - go back to paper ballots and pencils\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:27:24","modified":"2003-10-28 21:27:24","fileurl":""},{"id":91327,"heading":"oh,and 6","article":"6.last but not least:ban voter registration - it hassles and scares people off elections - just what the power plutocracy wants - because it's an extra filing that allows power pigs to de fact get much closer to figuring out who you voted for.\r\n\r\nany citizen older than 18 but for few exceptions ought to be able to go to the polls and fucking vote upon proof of citizenship.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:31:05","modified":"2003-10-28 21:31:05","fileurl":""},{"id":91333,"heading":"sorry no","article":">>The problem is what do you define as an opinion. there are infinite possibilities for opinions. some are very stupid and some are more logical. deciding which are valid for your equal time on tv will be difficult and even if it was possible there would be a bias towards the theories that have the most variation (and probably the least reliable) because they would get the most air time. >>:\r\n\r\nit's NOT up to scottie or adrian or anyone single person to decide or preselect which opinions are better than others - it's up to the PEOPLE and that's precisely why there ought to be NO preselection - let the people make their free choice at last.\r\n\r\ni think you probably wanted to say that the bias would be towards the opinions with the LEAST variation - but i think there would be a balance between amounts of little-varying opinions and their little-varied contraries,so in the end there would be a certain overall par condicio.\r\n\r\nbut of course if one side ended up prevailing because of little variation,then this could easily be balanced and compensated by giving an equivalent air time for repetition to the contrary opinions.\r\n\r\nand although no system is perfect,mine is certainly way better and closer to what democracy is all about than our current gestapoized and muzzled media shit:\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:40:26","modified":"2003-10-28 21:40:26","fileurl":""},{"id":91335,"heading":"and finally","article":">>Look around the world. you should save the word "facism" for states taht are worse.. OR you should admit that you believe ALL states are "facist" (thereby totally devaluing the term)>>:\r\n\r\ncertainly i am convinced that democracy has never existyed anywhere and does not now - but i don't think that if i talk as i do of global fascism i devalue the term - i'm just describing reality.\r\n\r\nanyway let me again state that although i frontally disagree with you and maintain taht you are a paid shill at the behest of crimininal power pigs,at least you have the dignity and intelligence to construct logical counterarguments that are worth discussing and are sometimes thought-provoking,unlike your moronic colleagues the likes of fresce nonanarchist etc.\r\n\r\ni just hope they are your colleagues and not your alyternicks,but your coments sure deserve respect.\r\n\r\nacknowledging this also is what democracy is all about for me.\r\n\r\nand if debates such as this - where par condicio is ALMOST real - were the standard on massmedia,...\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-28 21:47:22","modified":"2003-10-28 21:47:22","fileurl":""},{"id":91446,"heading":"hmm","article":">> I never did. I dunno who did or how you can assert such a thing.\r\n\r\nyou collectively (I said that so why do you have the confusion) not you singular. you singular don\u2019t give permission to any prez I assume. Unfortunately for you the majority do so your opinion doesn\u2019t matter. Also failure to give permission is de-facto acceptance of other peoples choice just like not voting. that is because true anarchism is a non-option. since a power vacuumed like that is not a stable state. (you may care to dispute that)\r\n\r\n>> 1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls, not only in Florida, by bush's thugs.\r\n\r\n- many as in "next to 0%". However, no system is perfect so I will accept that probably happened (people where effectively disenfranchised by situation of polling booths or acceptance of certain ballots or arrangement of transport or work etc) in some form or other probably both in favour of republicans and democrats. But at the same time that doesn\u2019t have much implication besides the fact that you should try to fix it next time.\r\nIf everyone voted there would probably be a win for the democrats and the country would move a little to the left but it would be undemocratic just to "guess" that also not voting implies a certain amount of not caring and should people who don\u2019t care be putting unconsidered opinions upon the rest of us? (Or maybe you will say yes to that too?)\r\n\r\n>> 2.as for those who CHOOSE not to vote, you better ask THEM why they don't vote - could it be they've lost all faith in the system - especially given the lack of any real alternative?\r\n\r\n- the logical reason not to vote is that the difference you make by your vote isn\u2019t worth the cost to you (the trip to the booth) For many people in a large country that is the case. this not being worth it may be influenced by not caring and not knowing policies as indicated above.\r\nthe reason why you don\u2019t seem to have a "real" alternative that would suit you is because no one supports it besides you and a few fruit cakes.\r\n\r\n>> 3.aliens who pay takes but can't vote are a betrayal of the us founding battle cry: NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!\r\n\r\n- Exactly where will you draw the line here? does VAT in Britain count as tax that deserves representation? sure the tax on a m&M packet I might have bought from there might be a little bit but morally how can you start attaching amount of tax to ability to vote? from another perspective if I had a house in ever country in the world I could "deserve" 200 odd votes at a country level and many more at state levels (I know not all places have votes). A big country could send a few hundred citizens over to a small county like one of those pacific islands and take over their government... then go home and have a good laugh about it.\r\nI guess you could work out a meaningful system that would work if so go ahead. The US could handle giving the vote to its aliens without any disaster but I\u2019m still not sure if I would do it citizenship is theoretically attached to a certain level of commitment to the state so that decisions might theoretically be made for the good of the state as opposed to short term financial gain etc.\r\n\r\n>I have a much better idea:\r\n1.ban lobbying and soft or hard money - the cancer of democracy\r\n\r\n- yup sure I'm with you there. lobbying does provide expert (if biased) information on some topics though, I assume you would create a system that prevented the money and the "old boys" part of it. \r\n\r\n> 2.give all candidates par condicio,ie equal time amount of daily air time on mass tv\r\n\r\n- that\u2019s ok if there are only two candidates. but you can't have "bob the NAZI" getting equal time with the democratic party just because one person supports him.\r\nDo you mean weighting it according to polling or previous vote rates?\r\n\r\n3.state or fed-founded campaigns, free air time\r\n\r\n- I\u2019m with you there. Again you'll need a system but this is at least partially done elsewhere in the world.\r\n\r\n> 4.let voters choose among all candidates, but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy\r\n\r\n- what if that results in you never getting a government?\r\nwhat sort of people would start quitting the election so that others could win by default?\r\n\r\n> 5.ban computer voting and punching machines\r\nvoting in a democracy must be as simple as a 5 year old would understand - go back to paper ballots and pencils\r\n\r\n- How about the option to do all of that? by the way would we be enfranchising those five year olds? Age distinctions are arbitrary as anything else.\r\n\r\n> 6.last but not least: ban voter registration - it hassles and scares people off elections - just what the power plutocracy wants - because it's an extra filing that allows power pigs to de fact get much closer to figuring out who you voted for.\r\n\r\n- hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration. \r\n\r\n> any citizen older than 18 but for few exceptions ought to be able to go to the polls and fucking vote upon proof of citizenship.\r\n\r\n- sure why not.. again concerned your system would be hard to police i.e. prevent fraud though.\r\n\r\n>> it's NOT up to Scottie or Adrian or anyone single person to decide or preselect which opinions are better than others - it's up to the PEOPLE and that's precisely why there ought to be NO preselection - let the people make their free choice at last.\r\n\r\n- your average person (or any person for that matter) cannot consider all possible opinions and make and informed choice. The more choice you give them the worse their final decision will be. Even more importantly they can be F'ed putting that much effort into voting what they want is a relatively simple choice between a limited number of candidates and ideas. If you make there be 1000 candidates all with equal time you can imagine what will happen with most votes assuming that voter turn out trates dont just drop through the floor.\r\nBesides that the elected representatives will form all sorts of unelected coalitions.\r\n\r\n>> I think you probably wanted to say that the bias would be towards the opinions with the LEAST variation \r\n\r\nmaybe I misunderstood you. if you give "ideas" equal time then you will have to give the guys with the wildest ideas equal time to the main stream ideas. since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. However maybe you don\u2019t mean equal time for ideas instead equal time for ideas considering the amount of people who support those ideas or representatives who support them. if that is the case then sure I\u2019m behind that too, although there is a certain argument for weighting time towards those who would know and care about an issue. for example the nthern Ireland issue is most important to the Irish so their opinion on the issue is a bit more important than that of your average Indian even though there are almost a billion more Indians.\r\n\r\n> but I think there would be a balance between amounts of little-varying opinions and their little-varied contraries,so in the end there would be a certain overall par condicio.\r\n\r\n- The good thing about big parties is that they have to appeal to a wide section of the comunity without alienating too much of it. a 100 small parties could each alienate everone except for their own interest group.\r\n\r\n> but of course if one side ended up prevailing because of little variation, then this could easily be balanced and compensated by giving an equivalent air time for repetition to the contrary opinions.\r\n\r\n- question is what is the pivot on which you are balancing these opinions. the person who picks the pivot controls the country.\r\n\r\n>> and although no system is perfect, mine is certainly way better and closer to what democracy is all about than our current gestapoized and muzzled media shit:\r\n\r\nsome of it might be. But in my opinion it wont change the world all that much if you put it into action. \r\n\r\n> anyway let me again state that although I frontally disagree with you and maintain that you are a paid shill at the behest of crimininal power pigs,at least you have the dignity and intelligence to construct logical counterarguments.\r\n\r\nhahaha you crack me up.. er thanks I guess.\r\nI wish they would actually start honoring the pay cheques Im supposed to be getting","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 11:24:06","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:07","fileurl":""},{"id":91473,"heading":"not really","article":">>Also failure to give permission is de-facto acceptance of other peoples choice just like not voting.>>:not in a blocked,no-alternative,no-par-condicio ttotalinarianism like the us or the rest of the west and the world for that matter.\r\n\r\npolitics in the us are limited by antidemocratic factors like banning communists,big business support,massmedia muzzling and monopoly.\r\n\r\nno wonder most people have long since stopped voting or registering - even setting aside electoral fraud.\r\n\r\nwhat's the sense of voting in nazi germany?\r\n\r\nwhat's the sense of vorting in nazi us? ","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 14:47:33","modified":"2003-10-29 14:47:33","fileurl":""},{"id":91474,"heading":"not really\/2","article":""">> 1.many voters at the last presidentials were deleted from the rolls, not only in Florida, by bush's thugs. \r\n\r\n- many as in "next to 0%".>>:\r\n\r\npercentages are in dispute,but were it as you said,it would have made a helluva lot of difference in a narrowly contested election. \r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 14:49:37","modified":"2003-10-29 14:49:37","fileurl":""},{"id":91475,"heading":"biase disenfranchising","article":">>disenfranchised by situation of polling booths or acceptance of certain ballots or arrangement of transport or work etc) in some form or other probably both in favour of republicans and democrats>>:\r\n\r\nnot at all:in florida for instance,most people maliciously scrapped from the rolls were blacks who are known to vote democrat in that neckadawoods.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 14:51:58","modified":"2003-10-29 14:51:58","fileurl":""},{"id":91476,"heading":"anyway let's make it clear","article":"i see no difference of substance whatsoever in today's democrats or reps - both being the interface between wall street criminals and gullible or helpless masses.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 14:53:47","modified":"2003-10-29 14:53:47","fileurl":""},{"id":91477,"heading":"scottie's dogmas","article":">>the reason why you don\u2019t seem to have a "real" alternative that would suit you is because no one supports it besides you and a few fruit cakes.>>:\r\n\r\nreally? what a well-argued assertion indeed...\r\n\r\nhave you taken a poll?\r\n\r\ni hereby withdraw all residual respect for you as being any different from your paid-shill colleagues in not using ad hominem devices.\r\n\r\nbut your baseless insults do nothing but backfire in your face. \r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 14:56:43","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:07","fileurl":""},{"id":91478,"heading":"more preposterousness from scottie","article":">>does VAT in Britain count as tax that deserves representation?>>:\r\n\r\n1.many countries have arrangements for refunding vat\r\n\r\n2.comparing a few bucks you might contribute to england on a trip with the large sums a tax-paying alien contributes to the us by slaving all his life is not only ludicrous and preposterous but also offensive.\r\n\r\nsuch talk woulda gotten you hanged in 1776.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:01:02","modified":"2003-10-29 15:01:02","fileurl":""},{"id":91480,"heading":"on defining democracy","article":">>but you can't have "bob the NAZI" getting equal time with the democratic party just because one person supports him. >>:\r\n\r\ndemocracy is NOT about majority power - were it so,hitler would have been a democratic leader because he got elected more or less by a relative majority.\r\n\r\nno,democracy is precisely about giving equal airtime to minorities,in order to give em a chance to become in their turn majority at the next elections.\r\n\r\nbob the nazi has as much of a right to equal air time as his colleague bush or me or you.\r\n\r\nand then let the people cast their vote and decide.\r\n\r\ndemocracy is precisely about that one person who supports bob the nazi or scottie the mole - even on the level of pure logic,noone can say for sure whether a majority is more right than the minority - the relative majority of germans that elected hitler in 1933 was more wrong than all other minority parties.\r\n\r\nor maybe you'd disagree?...\r\n\r\nlogic tells us that one single person might be right where one million were wrong.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:10:22","modified":"2003-10-29 15:10:22","fileurl":""},{"id":91482,"heading":"get out the vote","article":">>let voters choose among all candidates, but invalidate any election that fails to get out at least 50% +1 of the electorate - we want democracy not oligarchy \r\n\r\n- what if that results in you never getting a government? >>:\r\n\r\nthen ask the majority who hasn't voted why they abstained,and they'll tell us the way out of the doldrums - not the 14,5% fucked up nazi pigs who now rule cali thru an SS groper.\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:16:28","modified":"2003-10-29 15:16:28","fileurl":""},{"id":91483,"heading":"but i'm confident...","article":"..that a truly democratic system with par condicio and no lobbying would not fail to get out the vote - as the scheindemokratie we're livin' in obviously fails to do.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:18:15","modified":"2003-10-29 15:18:15","fileurl":""},{"id":91484,"heading":"age limits","article":"sure they may be arbitrary - but that's a matter for psychologists to assess maybe not for laymen as me or you.\r\n\r\n18 sounds pretty fair to me from life experience.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:20:53","modified":"2003-10-29 15:20:53","fileurl":""},{"id":91485,"heading":"another baseless assertion","article":">>hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration.>>:\r\n\r\nwhy? \r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:22:41","modified":"2003-10-29 15:22:41","fileurl":""},{"id":91486,"heading":"not really","article":">>- your average person (or any person for that matter) cannot consider all possible opinions and make and informed choice. The more choice you give them the worse their final decision will be.>>:\r\n\r\nanother baseless assertion.\r\n\r\nthere are dozens if not hundreds of car brands and typer on the merket,and it seems that the average person is perfectly able to choose what they want.\r\n\r\nmoreover i don't see from experience that at any given time in history there's been millions of radically different political programs competing at the same time,so your assertion is abstract at best.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:27:17","modified":"2003-10-29 15:27:17","fileurl":""},{"id":91487,"heading":"on and on with the baseless assertions","article":">>since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. >>:\r\n\r\nunsubstantiated allegation.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:29:44","modified":"2003-10-29 15:29:44","fileurl":""},{"id":91488,"heading":"not really","article":">>there is a certain argument for weighting time towards those who would know and care about an issue. for example the nthern Ireland issue is most important to the Irish so their opinion on the issue is a bit more important than that of your average Indian even though there are almost a billion more Indians.>>:\r\n\r\nthis is not ad rem - we're talkin' about general elections with general poiotical programs in any given nation - indians don't vote in ireland or the us.\r\n\r\nmoreover,logic tells us that an indian might have gotten interested in northern ireland and,with a fresh perspective,figured out a way to end the bloodshed . \r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:33:43","modified":"2003-10-29 15:33:43","fileurl":""},{"id":91490,"heading":"100 small parties?","article":"i think true democracy is not about interest groups - i think for true democracy the only interest groups that really counts is the entire humanity - and especially the oppressed part of it.\r\n\r\ni don't see a party representing only southern cali strawberry growers vying for a presidential election - but if they so wished,they'd get equal airtime as anyone else provided they are able to formulate a program not just about strawberries but about progress for all 300 million us inhabitants.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:38:34","modified":"2003-10-29 15:38:34","fileurl":""},{"id":91491,"heading":"the pivot is the people","article":"and the people alone - it's up to them to watch all the par condicio,take part in it if they so wish,and choose .\r\n\r\nchoose a majority for 4 or 5 years and guard against this majority overruling the par condicio rights of the minority during those 4 or 5 years.\r\n\r\nguard against democracy not sliding back into...today's us.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 15:42:09","modified":"2003-10-29 15:42:09","fileurl":""},{"id":91494,"heading":"Uh","article":"Afrian, or should I call you the obsessive spammer.\r\n\r\nYou do realize that you spent a full hour posting 16 posts, with no responses, one after another.\r\n\r\nYou are obviously getting paid to come here and clog up the board.\r\n\r\n16 unanswered posts.","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 16:15:11","modified":"2003-10-29 16:15:11","fileurl":""},{"id":91498,"heading":"frescassmole","article":">>You are obviously getting paid to come here and clog up the board. \r\n\r\n16 unanswered posts.>>:\r\n\r\nactually,my posts were replies to your colleague or alternick scottie's baseless assertions above.\r\n\r\nif he or anyone else hasn't counterreplies it's not my fault.\r\n\r\nas for me getting paid,provide arguments or fuck off.\r\n\r\nit's ludicrous to be accused by a busharon nazi shill who's been spamming la on behalf of criminal pigs for years to accuse ME of being paid !!!\r\n\r\ni wish i were being paid by the way for it costs money.\r\n\r\nbut will you please tell us who in the world would sponsor ideas such as mine?\r\n\r\nthanx asshole.\r\n\r\nwhereas it's all too clear to anyone reading la who's behind YOUR self-multiplied stalking,you blowjobber.\r\n\r\nif not,just fuck off.\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 16:35:28","modified":"2003-10-29 16:35:28","fileurl":""},{"id":91544,"heading":"Any right wing think tank","article":""but will you please tell us who in the world would sponsor ideas such as mine?"\r\n\r\nAny right wing organization. Freerepublic for one.\r\n\r\nYour views are so assinine and such a parody of leftist gibberish that you've obviously been sent here to make the left look ridiculous.\r\n\r\nFine with me, but you're technique is a bit ham-fisted.","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 19:23:18","modified":"2003-10-29 19:23:18","fileurl":""},{"id":91571,"heading":"fresca i love you","article":">>Your views are so assinine and such a parody of leftist gibberish>>:\r\n\r\nbecause you ass don't even know how to spell english - asinine not assinine you dumbass.\r\n\r\nand:so much evidence for your false accusations...\r\n\r\ntypical indy rightwing mole...\r\n\r\ni'm crazy in love fresco,i'm hot,i'm da baddest babe you ever welcomed up your ass...cmon...now...oh yeah... ","author":"cheerio","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 21:08:09","modified":"2003-10-29 21:08:09","fileurl":""},{"id":91600,"heading":"gotta be kidding","article":""because you ass don't even know how to spell english "\r\n\r\nYou didn't actually just post that did you?\r\n\r\n"spell English"?!?\r\n\r\n"you ass"?!?\r\n\r\nROFL!","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 22:20:10","modified":"2003-10-29 22:20:10","fileurl":""},{"id":91610,"heading":"pull over now","article":"you filed this false spelling violation?\r\nMay I see your license?\r\nPlease take it out first. Stand by, I think we have a list of your violations, unpaid, for two years.....\r\nYour mistake. We've been looking for you.\r\nYou should have called in the typo police.","author":"Spelling Police","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-29 23:12:59","modified":"2003-10-29 23:12:59","fileurl":""},{"id":91627,"heading":"adrian the spammeister","article":""as for me getting paid,provide arguments or fuck off."\r\n\r\n"whereas it's all too clear to anyone reading la who's behind YOUR self-multiplied stalking,you blowjobber."\r\n\r\nChildish profanity aside ("Oooh! Look at me! I typed DIRTY WORDS on the INTERNET!"), can anyone see the incredible hypocrisy evident in these two statements?\r\n\r\nI know adrain can't.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 01:09:20","modified":"2003-10-30 01:09:20","fileurl":""},{"id":91628,"heading":"hmmm","article":">> not in a blocked,no-alternative,no-par-condicio ttotalinarianism like the us or the rest of the west and the world for that matter.\r\n\r\n- they are refusing to make a small improvement because you want a large improvement.. how dumb is that?\r\n\r\n>> politics in the us are limited by antidemocratic factors like banning communists,big business support,massmedia muzzling and monopoly.\r\n\r\n- comunism is an undemocratic factor - anyway the key aspect of democracy is the long term protection of rights and representation not an ends in itself. You want to protect agaisnt sliding back into US democracy but not stalinist comunism hmmm...\r\n\r\n>> percentages are in dispute,but were it as you said,it would have made a helluva lot of difference in a narrowly contested election.\r\n\r\n- but you said that it doesnt matter because the parties are the same. If you want another system then go throught the system and change it. Im fine with state based democracy becoming a more pue democracy etc etc. In the end it will result in jsut a minor shift of both parties.\r\n\r\n>> not at all:in florida for instance,most people maliciously scrapped from the rolls were blacks who are known to vote democrat in that neckadawoods.\r\n\r\n- That is irrelevant. what is relevant is if this scrapping constituted a breach of the system. If so ok, I dunno, I was supporting gore.\r\n\r\n>> have you taken a poll?\r\n\r\nDont you have some far left party over there in the US? Those greenies with nader or somthing?\r\n\r\n> 1.many countries have arrangements for refunding vat\r\n\r\nA) morons\r\nB) just an example\r\n\r\n>> 2.comparing a few bucks you might contribute to england on a trip with the large sums a tax-paying alien contributes to the us by slaving all his life is not only ludicrous and preposterous but also offensive.\r\n\r\nIts just an example. besides it would be easy for a rich person to pay more VAT than the alien could pay.\r\n\r\n>> no,democracy is precisely about giving equal airtime to minorities,in order to give em a chance to become in their turn majority at the next elections.\r\n\r\n-everyone is a minority of one. arbitrarily dividing them into groups is the job of the anti social politician.\r\n\r\n>> bob the nazi has as much of a right to equal air time as his colleague bush or me or you.\r\n\r\n- hmmm lucky bob as long as your system can stand it. \r\n\r\n> even on the level of pure logic,noone can say for sure whether a majority is more right than the minority - the relative majority of germans that elected hitler in 1933 was more wrong than all other minority parties.\r\nor maybe you'd disagree?...\r\n\r\n- Yes a majority isnt always smarter than a minority but you do need a system for reducing the number of ideas that are given equal weight otherwise people will stop making decisions based on important issues and just become confused and make it on instinctive things like looks.\r\n\r\n>> then ask the majority who hasn't voted why they abstained,and they'll tell us the way out of the doldrums - not the 14,5% fucked up nazi pigs who now rule cali thru an SS groper.\r\n\r\n- They will tell you for the most part because they couldnt be stuffed going to the polling booth or they were too busy. how are you going to use that information?\r\n\r\n>18 sounds pretty fair to me from life experience.\r\n\r\nIf its a psychology question maybe you need a test to determine if a person is good enough to vote?\r\n\r\n>>hmm sounds like it might get easy to cheat the system if there is no voter registration.>>:\r\nwhy?\r\n\r\nIf you wanted to cheat that system how would you do it? I can think of some ways but then again Im not sure what protections against that you have in mind. If you can make the system work then I think its good it reduces some beurocracy. Most systems will alow a fairly good database to be built up.\r\n\r\n>> another baseless assertion.\r\n\r\nNo it isnt your head big as it is cant hold an infinite amount of information. you are suggesting 250 million odd people get equal air time minus all the people who abdicate their rights. \r\n\r\nthere are dozens if not hundreds of car brands and typer on the merket,and it seems that the average person is perfectly able to choose what they want.\r\n\r\n- If you havent noticed they A) rarely make good decisions on those things unless they have already reduced their options down to a couple of types and B) they generally care at the time of decision what car they have more than what government rules them.\r\nand C) trying out a NAZI "car" could well be a one way trip. one bad decision totally wipes out your system.\r\n\r\n>>since there are more "stupid" ways to look at something than there are correct ways then stupid ideas will get more air time. >>:unsubstantiated allegation.\r\n\r\n- OK lets make it simple.. 1+1 = now how nmany correct answers are ther and how many wrong answers are there? If you ask a million people some will get it wrong and they will get it wrong in all sorts of interesting ways.\r\n\r\n>> this is not ad rem - we're talkin' about general elections with general poiotical programs in any given nation - indians don't vote in ireland or the us.\r\n\r\n- it is jsut an example Im sure you can extrapolate it. besides can you imagine an election that was so individual based that it came down to each issue that was important to each person and that would probably be a local issue.\r\n\r\n>> moreover,logic tells us that an indian might have gotten interested in northern ireland and,with a fresh perspective,figured out a way to end the bloodshed .\r\n\r\n- possible and good on him for telling people but puting the decision to a vote in india would still probably be a bad idea.\r\n\r\n>> i don't see a party representing only southern cali strawberry growers vying for a presidential election - but if they so wished,they'd get equal airtime as anyone else provided they are able to formulate a program not just about strawberries but about progress for all 300 million us inhabitants.\r\n\r\n- how are you going to decide that? Again your promoting some one to a sort of a undercover despot position.\r\n","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 01:10:21","modified":"2003-10-30 01:10:21","fileurl":""},{"id":91704,"heading":"thanx mr buchanan","article":"of the new hampshire gazette,for finally bringing up the bushes' nazi ties from the net underground to some sort of overground.\r\n\r\nyou risked your life it is told - and now pigs all around you are supposed to be protecting you...\r\ncouldn't get any worse.\r\n\r\ni sure wish to express to you all of my solidarity but - i know it'll do little to relieve you from your present misery.\r\n\r\nsee mr buchanan - what are we antinazis really up to?\r\nwhat are we risking our lives for and - does it make any practical sense?\r\n\r\nhow many martyrs have we already had?\r\n\r\nthousands of afghanis,iraqis,people of many different nationalities on 911,countless WW2 dead because of the bushes and their accomplices.\r\n\r\nit is high time to rethink our strategies mr buchanan.\r\ndie a martyr if you so wish - maybe i'll follw suit in a short while,for i've had my share of death theats too.\r\n\r\nbut - are we fighting a common enemy for a common goal?\r\n\r\nmy goal is worldwide economic equality and the abolishment of nations.\r\n\r\nwhat's yours?\r\n\r\nand:i intend to fight for my political objective by all means necessary - in legitimate defense .\r\n\r\nare you among the naives who think an article or 2 will bring down world imperialism?\r\n\r\nanyway you are a man of courage,mr buchanan - if all i've read about you is true.\r\n\r\nmy respect.i'm doing what i can to spread awareness of your case.\r\n\r\nbut it was pascal - certainly not a commie - who said that there is no justice without the sword.\r\n\r\nthe word and the sword - either is powerless without the other.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 15:26:56","modified":"2003-10-30 15:26:56","fileurl":""},{"id":91710,"heading":"no police potection","article":""you risked your life it is told - and now pigs all around you are supposed to be protecting you..."\r\n\r\nYou actually *believe* this nut has to have police protection for printing his story? You're as looney as he is.","author":"no reason for it","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 15:52:23","modified":"2003-10-30 15:52:23","fileurl":""},{"id":91715,"heading":"wall street=hitler","article":"without wall street there would have been no hitler,no german rearmement,no WW2,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nhitler was just the puppet.\r\nhis paymasters were in new york city,and they were both christians and jews.\r\n\r\nhere's how antony c sutton in his 1976 study wall street and the rise of hitler details wall street's funding of german cartel construction:\r\n\r\n>>German Cartel Wall Street\r\nSyndicate Amount Issued \r\nAllgemeine \r\nElektrizitats-\r\nGesellschaft (A.E.G.)\r\n(German General\r\nElectric) National City\r\nCo. $35,000,000 \r\nVereinigte Stahlwerke\r\n(United Steelworks) Dillon, Read &\r\nCo. $70,225,000 \r\nAmerican I.G. \r\nChemical (I.G. \r\nFarben) National City\r\nCo. $30,000,000 >>\r\n\r\n\r\nguess who directed the board of america IG farben - the jewish american magnate paul warburg...\r\n\r\njew gasses jews.\r\n\r\nor better:\r\n\r\nplutochrat sucks the blood of the poor.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 16:06:43","modified":"2003-10-30 16:06:43","fileurl":""},{"id":91717,"heading":"judeonazi history","article":"actually,maybe a better term to define judeonazis is judeoplutochrat s- but since we're talking here about both jewish and christian magnates in the us who financed and thus created hitler and the nazis,even apter is the term judeochristoplutochrats - the bushes,the warburgs,etc.\r\n\r\nnow for 58 years judeochristoplutochratic propaganda has been brainwashing the planet starting with school with a pack of lies:\r\n\r\nfor instance,the dichotomy evil germans versus good jews - it's the concept of collective guilt which was imposed on germany as a race.\r\n\r\na concept by which germans are still paying war reparations to israel after 58 years!!!!!!!!!\r\n\r\nbut it is indeed a false and racist mystification of history via baseless generalization of the sort of goldhagen's willing executioners bullcrap:\r\n\r\n1.at the last elections held in germany in 1933 hitler only got about 40% or less of the votes - dreadful state terror before and during the election notwithstanding - \r\ntherefore we may mathematically conclude that 60% that is the MAJORITY of germans were NOT nazis and were NOT responsible for the rise of hitler and for the holocaust - which makes the judeochristoplutochratic concept of collective guilt and its economic implications NULL AND VOID.\r\n\r\n2.seldom remembered martyrs of german antinazi resistance like the weisse rose bonhoeffer von stauffenberg etc also render the concept of collective guilt and its economic implications NULL AND VOID.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 16:18:27","modified":"2003-10-30 16:18:27","fileurl":""},{"id":91719,"heading":"unmasking judeochristonazi falsehoods","article":"another huge lie with huge economic implications is the greatest and most effective judeochristoplutochratic lie of all - the mother of all lies:\r\n\r\nthe 6-million-dead- jews lie.\r\n\r\nvictors' history has been brainwashing us for 58 years with the infamous lie that 6 million jews were murdered in the holocaust - when in fact the yad vashem institute in jerusalem - the only archive in the world known to have a complete documented filing for jewish holocaust victims - is said to have 3 million names - a half.\r\n\r\nand i say is said to have because i could in no way independently verify this 3 million total,not even on yad vashem's web site which uses a format i don't have.\r\n\r\nactually i used to remember an even lower total from an article by a jewish reporter who'd visited vashem in jerusalem a few years ago.\r\n\r\nbut in any way the 6 million lie is what it is:\r\n\r\na colossal imposture for speculative purposes,both financial and geopolitical.\r\n\r\ni'll discuss such montruous purposes shortly.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 16:26:25","modified":"2003-10-30 16:26:25","fileurl":""},{"id":91721,"heading":"Kill the JOOOOOOOOS!!","article":"Ladies and Gentlemen, meet adrian more, brought to you courtesy of the National Alliance.","author":"Elvis Hitler","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 16:30:34","modified":"2003-10-30 16:30:34","fileurl":""},{"id":91722,"heading":"why the 6-million lie","article":"the 6-million lie was carefully fabricated by judeochristonazi pseudohistorians in order to assert a moral primacy for jewish victims of the holocaust as opposed to say russian or polish or communist or gypsy victims:\r\n\r\nbecause considering the other dogmatic estimate of 11 million jews present in the areas subjected to the holocaust in 1939 plus the final dogma of 5 million jews left on may 9,1945 in those same areas - god only knows how these counts were made - what we get is not only the 6-million lie,BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY THE FALSE CERTAINTY THAT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF JEWS WAS MURDERERD BY THE NAZIS THAN SAY OF POLES RUSSIANS OR ANY OTHER GIVEN ETHNIC OR WHATEVER GROUP GENOCIDED IN THE HOLOCAUST.\r\n\r\ntherefore jews have become the "chosen" people with moral primacy - the people no one has the right to even slightly criticize because who could be as monstruous as to syndicate what the jews are doing to the palestinians when compared to the colossally superior suffering jews endured in WW2.\r\n\r\ntherefore the 6-million myth has become a cornerstone of massmurderous sionist policy for 58 years down to the present day.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-30 16:35:11","modified":"2003-10-30 16:35:11","fileurl":""},{"id":91945,"heading":"without wall street,no hoocaust","article":"again from the great 1976 study by antony c sutton,wall street and the rise of hitler,mostly available online at:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.reformed-theology.org\/html\/books\/wall_street\/\r\n\r\n>>Moreover, American assistance to Nazi war efforts extended into other areas.17 The two largest tank producers in Hitler's Germany were Opel, a wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors (controlled by the J.P. Morgan firm), and the Ford A. G. subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company of Detroit. The Nazis granted tax-exempt status to Opel in 1936, to enable General Motors to expand its production facilities. General Motors obligingly reinvested the resulting profits into German industry. Henry Ford was decorated by the Nazis for his services to Naziism. (See p. 93.) Alcoa and Dow Chemical worked closely with Nazi industry with numerous transfers of their domestic U.S. technology. Bendix Aviation, in which the J.P. Morgan-controlled General Motors firm had a major stock interest, supplied Siemens & Halske A. G. in Germany with data on automatic pilots and aircraft instruments. As late as 1940, in the "unofficial war," Bendix Aviation supplied complete technical data to Robert Bosch for aircraft and diesel engine starters and received royalty payments in return.>>:\r\n\r\nno mr ford,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nnow hitler sure was a beast but - who's more responsible?\r\n\r\nthe puppet or his puppet masters?\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 16:37:01","modified":"2003-10-31 16:37:01","fileurl":""},{"id":91958,"heading":"adrian more's making stuff up again.","article":""no mr ford,no holocaust."\r\n\r\nThe paragraph you posted has nothing to do with your claim.\r\n\r\nIs that the closest thing you could find to back up your ridiculous assertion? Dude...give it up.\r\n\r\n"now hitler sure was a beast..."\r\n\r\nDid it hurt to say that?\r\n\r\n..."who's more responsible? \r\n\r\nthe puppet or his puppet masters?"\r\n\r\nSure, Hitler never had an original idea. There he was, minding his own business, when the powers-that-be thrust him onto the world stage and insisted he try to kill as many Jews as he could...so the shadow people could sell starters.\r\n\r\nCould you GET any more ridiculous?\r\n\r\nYour cue, adrain...post 7 replies to my one post.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 17:56:26","modified":"2003-10-31 17:56:26","fileurl":""},{"id":91961,"heading":"well...","article":""Could you GET any more ridiculous? "\r\n\r\n\r\nMy money is on "yes he can".","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 17:59:52","modified":"2003-10-31 17:59:52","fileurl":""},{"id":91962,"heading":"the 156 spam item","article":">>"no mr ford,no holocaust." \r\n\r\nThe paragraph you posted has nothing to do with your claim. >>:\r\n\r\nsure it does:\r\n\r\nif wall street from the bushes to ford etc hadn't financed hitler's rise to power in the first place and subsequently his rearmement and done business with him throughout the 30ies and well into WW2,there would have been no nazis and thus no holocaust.\r\n\r\nget outa here narcoholic shill.\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 18:00:30","modified":"2003-10-31 18:00:30","fileurl":""},{"id":91963,"heading":"156=159","article":"notice reader please how the shill usually comes in typical nonanarchist\/fresca duplication within minutes - could it be that it's one and the same person?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 18:02:38","modified":"2003-10-31 18:02:38","fileurl":""},{"id":92132,"heading":"Sure, adrian.","article":"If it makes you less afraid to think we're all just one person, go right ahead.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 23:27:47","modified":"2003-10-31 23:27:47","fileurl":""},{"id":92136,"heading":"The Complete Walker-Bush-Thussen Story Can Be Found Here:","article":"For a complete indepth version of the Bush-Nazi funding read the following site:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.john-loftus.com\/Thyssen.asp\r\n\r\nAdrian's story about John Buchanan is just the tip of the iceburg. This is a very old, ugly, complicated story which I have been following for a flong long time. Friends in Europe worked at the banks where all these deals were originally made starting in 1924. To jump on Buchanan this many years later makes no sense. \r\n\r\nThis _real story_ is that this information is seeing the light of day during an election year. It is an expose of the Bush clans modus operandi going back many years. Pattern recognition anyone?\r\n\r\nWhat 's important in this discussion is to keep digging... to continue following Bushco's paper trail; un-cover all the dead bodies, and get to the many documents that Bushco has been hiding from the public for too long. A smart person never follows any leader blindly, regardless of their politics. \r\n\r\nCalling someone a Nazi is just a way to end a discussion. It is not a good use of one's time or resources. \r\n\r\nMore on Bush family values:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.newtopiamagazine.net\/issues\/v2issue3\/features\/bushempire.shtml\r\n\r\n ","author":"Hollywooddaze","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-31 23:47:49","modified":"2003-10-31 23:47:49","fileurl":""},{"id":92216,"heading":"hmmm","article":"> but it was pascal - certainly not a commie - who said that there is no justice without the sword.\r\n\r\n- what else would pascal say about what you have written here ? Basically he would tell you your a fool so its funny that you would quote him.\r\n\r\n> without wall street there would have been no hitler,no german rearmement,no WW2,no holocaust.\r\n\r\n- it is lucky that before Wall street there was no war and no violence. Oh wait a minute there was.. forget that.\r\n\r\n> hitler was just the puppet. his paymasters were in new york city,and they were both christians and jews.\r\n\r\n- paymasters eh hmm when Im the most powerful man on earth Ill make sure I get some of those too.\r\n\r\n> jew gasses jews.\r\n\r\nthis was just so good I had to quote it again.\r\nAmongst the possible stupid implications there are\r\n"i can draw a very convoluted line back to a jew so thats cool"\r\n"its ok to kill your own people case closed"\r\n"collective responsibility for jews because a jew might vaguely be assocaited with killing jews" (moron there would be much more direct examples than this)\r\nCome on what moronic implication are you trying to make?\r\n\r\n> collective guilt \r\n\r\nYou take an unlooseable argument and somehow manage to screw it up.. now how did you do that?\r\n\r\n> the 6-million-dead- jews lie.\r\n\r\n-It is bait. \r\n-Everytime we see some one pick it up we know the process of thought that would lead them to being that type of person. normal peopel would either not concernthemselves with eactly how many people were killed, not look for ways to reduce that number or not bring it up in conversation (as if some arbitrary number like 3 million people dying would somehow make hitler a good guy). \r\nIt says alot about you.\r\n\r\n> BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY THE FALSE CERTAINTY THAT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF JEWS WAS MURDERERD BY THE NAZIS THAN SAY OF POLES RUSSIANS OR ANY OTHER GIVEN ETHNIC OR WHATEVER GROUP GENOCIDED IN THE HOLOCAUST.\r\n\r\n- Are you aware of the NAZI party charter and what they stood for and what they said after they got power? I see a desperate attempt to accept any evidence that might agree with your point no-matter how pathetically.\r\n\r\n>>Moreover, American assistance to Nazi war efforts extended into other areas.\r\n\r\n- It is a sign of the world today that basically everyone supports everyone else in some way and everyone also opposes everyone else in another way.\r\nBesides until germany actually started war (actually well after) firms did not as a matter of fact know that germany was planning on killing jews. Maybe Hitler would have turned out to be a good buffer for communism.\r\n\r\n>> if wall street from the bushes to ford etc hadn't financed hitler's rise to power in the first place and subsequently his rearmement and done business with him throughout the 30ies and well into WW2,there would have been no nazis and thus no holocaust.\r\n\r\n- it was the states job to stop him. bloody isolationists and chicken liberals who are the firms elected representitives on these sort of issues. no individual or even organized group of firms could have stopped hitler. besides the conclusion is only relevant to the formation of the nazi party at which point they would have needed psycic abilities to know they would cause a holocaust or even have any sort of ability to take on the surrounding countries (even though they were obviously not nice fellows). AND did the american companies cripple the soviet union by not doing business with them eh??\r\nmaybe your theory has a massive hole in it?","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 10:06:30","modified":"2003-11-01 10:06:30","fileurl":""},{"id":92282,"heading":"mole nonsense exposed","article":">>Besides until germany actually started war (actually well after) firms did not as a matter of fact know that germany was planning on killing jews.>>:\r\n\r\nas if mein kampf hadn't sold 10 million copies in the thirties\r\n\r\nas if kristall nacht never happened\r\n\r\nquite a denier,our wall street lawyer...","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 16:34:59","modified":"2003-11-01 16:34:59","fileurl":""},{"id":92283,"heading":"judeonazi lies","article":">>no individual or even organized group of firms could have stopped hitler.>>:\r\n\r\nhitler without money?\r\n\r\nauschwitz trains without IBM punchcards?\r\n\r\nwehrmacht without ford motors?\r\n\r\nund so weiter und so fort... ","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 16:37:38","modified":"2003-11-01 16:37:38","fileurl":""},{"id":92288,"heading":"no wall street,no holocaust","article":"again from the wonderful antony c sutton book wall street and the rise of hitler:\r\n\r\n>>On the eve of World War II the German chemical complex of I.G. Farben was the largest chemical manufacturing enterprise in the world, with extraordinary political and economic power and influence within the Hitlerian Nazi state. I. G. has been aptly described as "a state within a state."\r\n\r\nThe Farben cartel dated from 1925, when organizing genius Hermann Schmitz (with Wall Street financial assistance) created the super-giant chemical enterprise out of six already giant German chemical companies \u2014 Badische Anilin, Bayer, Agfa, Hoechst, Weiler-ter-Meer, and Griesheim-Elektron. These companies were merged to become Inter-nationale Gesellschaft Farbenindustrie A.G. \u2014 or I.G. Farben for short. Twenty years later the same Hermann Schmitz was put on trial at Nuremburg for war crimes committed by the I. G. cartel. Other I. G. Farben directors were placed on trial but the American affiliates of I. G. Farben and the American directors of I. G. itself were quietly forgotten; the truth was buried in the archives.\r\n\r\nIt is these U.S. connections in Wall Street that concern us. Without the capital supplied by Wall Street, there would have been no I. G. Farben in the first place and almost certainly no Adolf Hitler and World War II.>>:\r\n\r\nand let us remember who the us director for us IG farben was:the jewish magnate paul warburg - jew gasses jews...\r\n\r\nor better said:rich pig gasses the poor,for the rich capitalist's pig's only religion is money.\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 16:57:47","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:20","fileurl":""},{"id":92329,"heading":"adrain on society","article":"Man, you Marxist wackos are really brainwashed, aren't you?\r\n\r\nToo bad.\r\n\r\nBut there may be hope for you yet.\r\n\r\nAll you have to do is grow up.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 21:25:35","modified":"2003-11-01 21:25:35","fileurl":""},{"id":92331,"heading":"Well","article":"Here's your problem there adrian.\r\n\r\nSeeing as how it's common knowledge that as a communist (how embarrassing) you must loathe all things wallstreet, yet, on the other hand, you've made it clear that you loathe Jews as well, it would seem that your conspiracy theory puts you at odds with yourself.\r\n\r\nSo which is it? Who do you despise more?\r\n\r\nWallstreet or Jews?","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 21:29:44","modified":"2003-11-01 21:29:44","fileurl":""},{"id":92334,"heading":"Silly fresca!","article":"Everybody knows the filthy JOOOOS own Wall Street!\r\n\r\nSo our little Red Menace isn't conflicted at all.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-01 21:38:04","modified":"2003-11-01 21:38:04","fileurl":""},{"id":92465,"heading":"BUSH=HITLER","article":"again from antony c sutton's marvellous wall street and the rise of hitler:\r\n\r\n>>CHAPTER TWO\r\n\r\nThe Empire of I.G. Farben\r\n\r\n\r\nFarben was Hitler and Hitler was Farben. (Senator Homer T. Bone to Senate Committee on Military Affairs, June 4, 1943.)\r\n\r\n\r\nOn the eve of World War II the German chemical complex of I.G. Farben was the largest chemical manufacturing enterprise in the world, with extraordinary political and economic power and influence within the Hitlerian Nazi state. I. G. has been aptly described as "a state within a state."\r\n\r\nThe Farben cartel dated from 1925, when organizing genius Hermann Schmitz (with Wall Street financial assistance) created the super-giant chemical enterprise out of six already giant German chemical companies \u2014 Badische Anilin, Bayer, Agfa, Hoechst, Weiler-ter-Meer, and Griesheim-Elektron. These companies were merged to become Inter-nationale Gesellschaft Farbenindustrie A.G. \u2014 or I.G. Farben for short. Twenty years later the same Hermann Schmitz was put on trial at Nuremburg for war crimes committed by the I. G. cartel. Other I. G. Farben directors were placed on trial but the American affiliates of I. G. Farben and the American directors of I. G. itself were quietly forgotten; the truth was buried in the archives.\r\n\r\nIt is these U.S. connections in Wall Street that concern us. Without the capital supplied by Wall Street, there would have been no I. G. Farben in the first place and almost certainly no Adolf Hitler and World War II.\r\n\r\nGerman bankers on the Farben Aufsichsrat (the supervisory Board of Directors)1 in the late 1920s included the Hamburg banker Max War-burg, whose brother Paul Warburg was a founder of the Federal Reserve System in the United States. Not coincidentally, Paul Warburg was also on the board of American I. G., Farben's wholly owned U.S. subsidiary. In addition to Max Warburg and Hermann Schmitz, the guiding hand in the creation of the Farben empire, the early Farben Vorstand included Carl Bosch, Fritz ter Meer, Kurt Oppenheim and George von Schnitzler.2 All except Max Warburg were charged as "war criminals" after World War II.\r\n\r\nIn 1928 the American holdings of I. G. Farben (i.e., the Bayer Company, General Aniline Works, Agfa Ansco, and Winthrop Chemical Company) were organized into a Swiss holding company, i. G. Chemic (Inter-nationale Gesellschaft fur Chemisehe Unternehmungen A. G.), controlled by I. G. Farben in Germany. In the following year these American firms merged to become American I. G. Chemical Corporation, later renamed General Aniline & Film. Hermann Schmitz, the organizer of I. G. Farben in 1925, became a prominent early Nazi and supporter of Hitler, as well as chairman of the Swiss I. G. Chemic and president of American I. G. The Farben complex both in Germany and the United States then developed into an integral part of the formation and operation of the Nazi state machine, the Wehrmacht and the S.S.\r\n\r\nI. G. Farben is of peculiar interest in the formation of the Nazi state because Farben directors materially helped. Hitler and the Nazis to power in 1933. We have photographic evidence (see page 60) that I.G. Farben contributed 400,000 RM to Hitler's political "slush fund." It was this secret fund which financed the Nazi seizure of control in March 1933. Many years earlier Farben had obtained Wall Street funds for the 1925 cartelization and expansion in Germany and $30 million for American I. G. in 1929, and had Wall Street directors on the Farben board. It has to be noted that these funds were raised and directors appointed years before Hitler was promoted as the German dictator.>>:\r\n\r\nso again what we see here at work is judeochristonazi war profiteers and holocaust perofiteers dealing and wheelin' with hitler - no wall street,no hitler!\r\n\r\nand also notice reader how the german jewish magnate max warburg and his american counterpart paul warburg director of us IG farben were jews:\r\n\r\nJEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!!\r\n\r\nOR BETTER SAID:\r\n\r\nRICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS.\r\n\r\nno warburgs,no hitler.\r\n\r\nno warburgs,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nno rich jewish and chiristian pigs like bush's grandparents,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nnow who's more responsible for the holocaust reader:\r\nthe puppet hitler who didn't have a penny to start with or his creators ,the bushes the warburgs and wall street?\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 15:20:40","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:21","fileurl":""},{"id":92470,"heading":"Told you, rfresca.","article":"I told you Dennis the Red Menace wouldn't have a problem tying JOOOS and Wall Street together with a pretty hate ribbon.\r\n\r\nHe's so predictable! \r\n\r\nYou know, adrian, I gotta get a copy of The Little Red Book so I can figure out what the hell's wrong with you.\r\n\r\nDon't get excited; it won't have a chance of converting me. The Force gives me power over weak minds.\r\n\r\nSee my 0538 Friday post for proof.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 15:35:42","modified":"2003-11-02 15:35:42","fileurl":""},{"id":92480,"heading":"BUSH=HITLER","article":"no wall street,no hitler.\r\n\r\nno bushes,no WW2.\r\n\r\nno jewish warburgs,no holocaust.\r\n\r\ncontinuing with sutton's excellent analysis:\r\n\r\n>>The Economic Power of I. G. Farben\r\n\r\nQualified observers have argued that Germany could not have gone to war in 1939 without I. G. Farben. Between 1927 and the beginning of World War II, I.G. Farben doubled in size, an expansion made possible in great part by American technical assistance and by American bond issues, such as the one for $30 million offered by National City Bank. By 1939 I. G. acquired a participation and managerial influence in some 380 other German firms and over 500 foreign firms. The Farben empire owned its own coal mines, its own electric power plants, iron and steel units, banks, research units, and numerous commercial enterprises. There were over 2,000 cartel agreements between I. G. and foreign firms \u2014 including Standard Oil of New Jersey, DuPont, Alcoa, Dow Chemical, and others in the United States, The full story of I,G, Farben and its world-wide ae-tivities before World War II can never be known, as key German records were destroyed in 1945 in anticipation of Allied victory. However, one post-war investigation by the U.S, War Department concluded that:\r\n\r\nWithout I. G.'s immense productive facilities, its intense re. search, and vast international affiliations, Germany's prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible; Farben not only directed its energies toward arming Germany, but concentrated on weakening her intended victims, and this double-barreled attempt to expand the German industrial potential for war and to restrict that of the rest of the world was not conceived and executed "in the normal course of business." The proof is overwhelming that I. G. Farben officials had full prior knowledge of Germany's plan for world conquest and of each specific aggressive act later undertaken ....3>>:\r\n\r\nfor 58 long years reader we've been sold the lie that hitler acted alone with the support of the "collectively guilty" germans.\r\n\r\nnow you and i know better reader:the lie is blown:\r\n\r\nit's the wall street and world JUDEOCHRISTONAZI plutocracy that generated hitler and WW2 and the holocaust.\r\n\r\nexcept that jew-gassing jew paul warburg and his german counterpart max were never hanged at nuremberg along with ribbentrop...too bad.\r\n\r\nbut we won't let it happen again shall we?\r\n\r\nYET IT'S HAPPENIN' IN IRAQ ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 16:25:37","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:21","fileurl":""},{"id":92483,"heading":"adrian","article":"Adrian - You need to go turn yourself in.\r\n\r\nThere are psychiatric hospitals all over L.A. One of them might be able to help with your paranoia.","author":"Adult Supervisor","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 16:35:44","modified":"2003-11-02 16:35:44","fileurl":""},{"id":92487,"heading":"Forget it, AS.","article":"Everyone's crazy BUT adrain.\r\n\r\nJust ask him.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 16:45:05","modified":"2003-11-02 16:45:05","fileurl":""},{"id":92492,"heading":"BUSH=HITLER","article":"no wall street,no hitler.\r\n\r\nno wall street,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nwho's more responsible - the puppet or his puppetmasters?\r\n\r\nhitler or his financiers,the jew paul warburg and the christonazi bushes?\r\n\r\nmore from sutton:\r\n\r\n>>The process for manufacturing tetra-ethyl lead? essential for aviation gasoline, was obtained by I. G. Farben from the United States, and in 1939 I.G. was sold $20 million of high-grade aviation gasoline by Standard Oil of New Jersey. Even before Germany manufactured tetra-ethyl lead by the American process it was able to "borrow" 500 tons from the Ethyl Corporation. This loan of vital tetra-ethyl lead was not repaid and I.G. forfeited the $1 million security. Further, I.G. purchased large stocks of magnesium from Dow Chemical for incendiary bombs and stockpiled explosives, stabilizers, phosphorus, and cyanides from the outside world.>>:\r\n\r\nTHE WAAL STREET JUDEOCHRISTONAZIS SUCH AS THE BUSHES AND THE JEW-GASSING JEW PAUL WARBURG ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HOLOCAUST AND FOR ALL WW2 DEATHS,ALONGSIDE THEIR GERMAN COLLEAGUES AND PUPPETS.\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 16:54:21","modified":"2003-11-02 16:54:21","fileurl":""},{"id":92496,"heading":"Wow, adrian!","article":"You're a nut!\r\n\r\nI realize this is not a rebuttal to your argument, yet I just had to make this observation.\r\n\r\nCarry on.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 16:58:39","modified":"2003-11-02 16:58:39","fileurl":""},{"id":92505,"heading":"jew gasses jew","article":"who was producing auschwitz's lethal zyclon b gas used for the holocaust of millions?\r\n\r\nIG farben,the main financial and industrial powerhouse behind hitler's rise to power and holocaust:\r\n\r\nsutton again:\r\n\r\n>>In 1939, out of 43 major products manufactured by I.G., 28 were of "primary concern" to the German armed forces. Farben's ultimate control of the German war economy, acquired during the 1920s and 1930s with Wall Street assistance, can best be assessed by examining the percentage of German war material output produced by Farben plants in 1945. Farben at that time produced 100 percent of German synthetic rubber, 95 percent of German poison gas (including all the Zyklon B gas used in the concentration camps), 90 percent of German plastics, 88 percent of German magnesium, 84 percent of German explosives, 70 percent of German gunpowder, 46 percent of German high octane (aviation) gasoline, and 33 percent of German synthetic gasoline.5 (See Chart 2-1 and Table 2-1.)>>:\r\n\r\nand who was on the board of us Ig farben?\r\n\r\nthe american jewish magnate paul warburg.\r\n\r\njew gasses jew.\r\n\r\nno judeochristonazi financial support for hitler,no holocaust.\r\n\r\ncapitalist massmurdering pigs gas their fellow poor kin.\r\n\r\njust like 911 massmurderer bush - nephew of hitler -creator grandparents- knocked off 3000 americans.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 18:07:55","modified":"2003-11-02 18:07:55","fileurl":""},{"id":92506,"heading":"Well, that should do it","article":""JEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!! \r\n\r\nOR BETTER SAID: \r\n\r\nRICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS. \r\n"\r\n\r\nI think that'll clear up any lingering doubt about adrian's hatred of Jews.\r\n\r\nBy the way Nonanarchist.\r\n\r\nGood call.\r\n\r\nRight on the nailhead.\r\n\r\nStill though, it makes you wonder why he cares at all, since whatever or whoever it takes to kill Jews is fine with him.\r\n\r\nWith all that "evil Jews killing dirty Jews" stuff, that must be why he keeps refferring to that book as "\r\nmarvelous", "great", "wonderful", "beuatiful" and "excellent".\r\n\r\nWhat a fruit.\r\n\r\nHe probably rollerblades too.","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 18:09:12","modified":"2003-11-02 18:09:12","fileurl":""},{"id":92514,"heading":"wall street=holocaust","article":"judeochristonazi history has the pennyless hitler engineering world wars and holocaust of millions - now we know better:\r\n\r\nno wall street financial backing,no hitler,no holocaust.\r\n\r\nagain from sutton's book:\r\n\r\n>>One of the more horrifying aspects of I.G. Farben's cartel was the invention, production, and distribution of the Zyklon B gas, used in Nazi concentration camps. Zyklon B was pure Prussic acid, a lethal poison produced by I.G. Farben Leverkusen and sold from the Bayer sales office through Degesch, an independent license holder. Sales of Zyklon B amounted to almost three-quarters of Degesch business; enough gas to kill 200 million humans was produced and sold by I.G. Farben. The Kilgore Committee report of 1942 makes it clear that the I.G. Farben directors had precise knowledge of the Nazi concentration camps and the use of I.G. chemicals. This prior knowledge becomes significant when we later consider the role of the American directors in I.G.'s American subsidiary>>:\r\n\r\namong whom there was the jewish magnate paul warburg,while his german jewish counterpart max ran the german side of this bloodthirsty biz - making millions out of the gassing of millions.\r\n\r\ncapitalist pigs created hitler - hitler was their puppet,and the real culprits were not hanged at nuremberg as they ought to have been - guess why...:\r\n\r\nalways ask yourself reader the brechtian questions:\r\n\r\nwho payed for WW2?\r\n\r\nwho payed for hitler's rise to power?\r\n\r\nwho payed for - and reaped the most profits for - the holocaust?\r\n\r\nnow you know the answer reader.\r\n\r\nand you know where the power of current unpresident state terrorist bush comes from...\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 18:33:21","modified":"2003-11-02 18:33:21","fileurl":""},{"id":92535,"heading":"And again","article":"JEWS GAS JEWS!!!!!!!!!! \r\n\r\nOR BETTER SAID: \r\n\r\nRICH JEWISH PIGS GAS POOR JEWISH HOLOCAUST VICTIMS. \r\n" \r\n\r\nI think that'll clear up any lingering doubt about adrian's hatred of Jews. \r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 21:13:55","modified":"2003-11-02 21:13:55","fileurl":""},{"id":92537,"heading":"Yup, no doubt at all.","article":"And the scary thing?\r\n\r\nAs a Marxist, he want to do the same thing to everyone who disagrees with him, too.\r\n\r\nNot that he'll EVER get the chance...","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 21:20:50","modified":"2003-11-02 21:20:50","fileurl":""},{"id":92543,"heading":"the versus game","article":"keep in mind reader:\r\n\r\nit's NOT germans versus jews - it's rich capitalist pigs who created hitler to profit from WW2 and the holocaust.\r\n\r\njust like sharon created hamas to profit from endless war.\r\n\r\ngermans versus jews,collective guilt...marx's superstructures,dust chucked into the people's eyes...\r\n\r\nyou know better now reader.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-02 21:49:07","modified":"2003-11-02 21:49:07","fileurl":""},{"id":92567,"heading":"adrian","article":"A) your connections are pretty weak at best. and even if they were strong connections all they would show is that there was a bad jewish person in the world (wow congradulations!). We already knew that.\r\n\r\nMaking special note of a jewish person who in some convoluted way assisted to kill jews is really jsut a sort of racism as in why do you note the jew in particular? were there not other board memmbers? other incidents? but somehow you imply it was the jews work ahah.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 01:50:31","modified":"2003-11-03 01:50:31","fileurl":""},{"id":92579,"heading":"But you see, Scottie...","article":"...in the scary, hate-filled pit that adrian is using instead of a brain, one bad Jew is an indictment of the entire Jewish faith...and the Christian faith by extension.\r\n\r\nYet what escapes his notice is that religion is responsible for more good than all the Marxists in the world...multiplied.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 02:06:31","modified":"2003-11-03 02:06:31","fileurl":""},{"id":92625,"heading":"judeochristonazis","article":"who ought to have been hanged at nuremberg but weren't:again from sutton's book wall street and the rise of hitler,1976:\r\n\r\n>>The Berlin N.W. 7 office of I.G. Farben was the key Nazi overseas espionage center. The unit operated under Farben director Max Ilgner, nephew of I.G. Farben president Hermann Schmitz. Max Ilgner and Hermann Schmitz were on the board of American I.G., with fellow directors Henry Ford of Ford Motor Company, Paul Warburg of Bank of Manhattan, and Charles E. Mitchell of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.>>:\r\n\r\nnotice reader the us collaborators of the german nazis:\r\n\r\nhenry ford - a christonazi,who kept on building up the german war machine well into WW2,killing hundreds of thousands of us soldiers in the process:\r\n\r\nwhy wasn't henry ford hanged at nuremberg?\r\nno henry fords,no WW2 and no holocaust.\r\n\r\n-the us jew paul warburg,a jew-gassing jew just like his german counterpart max warburg -\r\n\r\nwhy weren't paul warburg and max warburg hanged at nuremberg,their assets seized and donated to holocaust victims?\r\n\r\n-the christonazi charles mitchell - why wasn't he hanged at nuremberg alongside with ribbentropp?\r\n\r\nno wall street judeochristonazis,no WW2 and no holocaust.\r\n\r\nso there you have a few examples of war criminals against humanity:\r\n\r\nthe judeochristonazis from the us henry ford,paul warburg.charles mitchell.\r\n\r\nwhy isn't the adl filing a class action law suit against the descendants of those massmurderers?\r\n\r\nwhy is wall street untouchable for the adl?\r\n\r\n","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 15:24:15","modified":"2003-11-03 15:24:15","fileurl":""},{"id":92657,"heading":"ahh","article":" why wasn't henry ford hanged at nuremberg?\r\n\r\n- if you hung everyone who was at least somewhat guilty there would be almost noone left in germany (or austria or most of the other countries in the area). You have to stop the killing somwhere.\r\n\r\n> why isn't the adl filing a class action law suit against the descendants of those massmurderers?\r\n\r\nBecause the only target for such a law suit would be the state (USA) And that is a case they would loose. As you are well aware it is not acceptable to punish the children for the crimes of their grandparents.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 20:53:15","modified":"2003-11-03 20:53:15","fileurl":""},{"id":92661,"heading":"hmmm","article":">>Charles Ward, a former assistant of the leading Kennedy murder conspiracy theorist, Jim Garrison, described the way this method works as follows: "Garrison drew a conclusion and then organized the facts. And when the facts didn't fit, he liked to say that they'd been changed by the CIA." \r\ncare of http:\/\/mckinneysucks.blogspot.com\/\r\nread it all\r\njust like adrian.. and hex for that matter.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 21:29:34","modified":"2003-11-03 21:29:34","fileurl":""},{"id":92662,"heading":"on punishing children...","article":"if it's not acceptable to punish children for the sins of their fathers,then why are today's germans still paying reparations to israel?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 21:43:34","modified":"2003-11-03 21:43:34","fileurl":""},{"id":92663,"heading":"and just like germans...","article":"...have been paying for their fathers' sins for 58 years,so should bush's assets,which originate from holocaust blood,be seized and devolved to holocaust victims relatives.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 21:46:48","modified":"2003-11-03 21:46:48","fileurl":""},{"id":92669,"heading":"well","article":">> if it's not acceptable to punish children for the sins of their fathers,then why are today's germans still paying reparations to israel?\r\n\r\nA) their STATE was responsible for that event not the individuals so the same body (the state) is paying reparations. For example of my government borrows money the next government had to pay it back (generally) but if my dad borrows money I dont have to pay it back.\r\nHowever when it comes down to it It should have been sorted out, full and final, straight after WWII. However if it is "we feel guilty donations" (which I think it is) then it is not reparations its donations just like the US donates to ethiopia or similar countries when michael jackson has an appeal. So then the answer to "why" is "because they want to"\r\n\r\nOK here we go\r\n"The Luxembourg Agreement obligated the West German government to pay three billion German marks to the State of Israel"\r\nThey have already paid that back LONG ago. I suggest they vote to stop paying now that they have paid off their initial obligation. Unless they really want to... in which case, hey, they can do whatever they want with their money.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-03 22:31:46","modified":"2003-11-03 22:31:46","fileurl":""},{"id":92753,"heading":"the us state was responsible","article":"...too for failing to prevent wall street's support of hitler,WW2 and the holocaust.\r\n\r\ntherefore today's us state should be made to pay.\r\n\r\nand the corps like IBM,FORD etc just like their german counterparts have been made to pay.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 15:36:57","modified":"2003-11-04 15:36:57","fileurl":""},{"id":92754,"heading":"source?","article":">>They have already paid that back LONG ago. >>:\r\n\r\nsource?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 15:38:38","modified":"2003-11-04 15:38:38","fileurl":""},{"id":92755,"heading":"ADL 's funny sleep","article":"notice reader how the adl or equivalent jewish body NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from hitler WW2 and the holocaust,like IBM FORD etc - \r\n\r\ncould it be that the adl cares more about its wall street paymasters than about justice for holocaust survivors?","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 15:42:37","modified":"2003-11-04 15:42:37","fileurl":""},{"id":92759,"heading":"Why should they?","article":""notice reader how the adl ... NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from hitler WW2 and the holocaust,like IBM FORD etc -"\r\n\r\nWhy should they? We've got the ACLU for ridiculous and frivolous lawsuits such as that!","author":"Max","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 15:48:19","modified":"2003-11-04 15:48:19","fileurl":""},{"id":92777,"heading":"ridiculous and frivolous?","article":"law suits against germany or switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?\r\n\r\nthe only ridiculous thing here is you "max".","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 17:43:49","modified":"2003-11-04 17:43:49","fileurl":""},{"id":92792,"heading":"Yes.","article":""law suits against germany or switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?"\r\n\r\nYeah. That's exactly what I said.\r\n\r\n\r\nWhich part did you not understand.\r\n\r\n\r\nidiot.","author":"Max","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 18:40:47","modified":"2003-11-04 18:40:47","fileurl":""},{"id":92802,"heading":"max the idiot","article":"there's no logic to your obvious bullcrap,assmole.","author":"adrian more","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 19:13:21","modified":"2003-11-04 19:13:21","fileurl":""},{"id":92809,"heading":"no logic","article":"Yo momma is illogical, Mr. Spock, you half-breed Vulcan twit.\r\n\r\n\r\nObviously you didn't read what I wrote. Try going back and sounding out the words...\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Max","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-04 19:31:03","modified":"2003-11-04 19:31:03","fileurl":""},{"id":92916,"heading":"hmmm","article":">>They have already paid that back LONG ago. >>:\r\n\r\nsource?\r\n\r\n- take "amount they owed" and subtract "amount they paid" geezz do I have to do everything for you?\r\nIf you want to look up the original agreement do it yourself, it is a famous enough document.\r\n\r\n- I sugest before you open your fat mouth next time you do your research.\r\n\r\n>> notice reader how the adl or equivalent Jewish body NEVER files a class action law suit on behalf of holocaust victims against us corps who aided and profited from Hitler WW2 and the holocaust, like IBM FORD etc -\r\n\r\nHow would you construct such a case using points of law? Just for starters they would probably need to prove that the company could reasonably have known its actions would have negative effects to Jews since they were not aware of the holocaust something the majority of the US did not accept as fact until they entered the war\r\nYou could say well if anyone declares war on England then they are the enemy of the world and the US should not do business with them but I don\u2019t think you want to say that.\r\nThe next problem is a policy issue. If you can take the money of someone who was someone who did business with someone who in the future would be found to have committed a crime then you could be charged for doing business with a murderer a few years ago that you had no possibility of knowing about. the court would say "he was ugly and he had a bad attitude so Adrian should have known he was funding a murderer!!"\r\nThat and your case is getting kind of old unless you have a specific piece of money that you are interested in retrieving. There are lots of old companies you could sue for slavery crimes or whatever and you would have a much better case.\r\n\r\nNow if you have a stronger argument such as that IBM knowingly funded and owned a gas chamber or hand picked who died or something then we might have a law suit.\r\n \r\nthis is an easy case against the state of Germany and an impossible one against most US corps. basically the reason they don\u2019t apply for that action is that they would loose on multiple grounds.\r\n\r\n> could it be that the adl cares more about its wall street paymasters than about justice for holocaust survivors?\r\n\r\nNo they just don\u2019t want to start frivolous lawsuits\r\n\r\n> law suits against Germany or Switzerland are ok while law suits against IBM aren't?\r\n\r\nIf they cant be won, yeah...\r\n","author":"Scottie","parent_id":91008,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-11-05 05:25:07","modified":"2013-11-11 00:27:23","fileurl":""}]}