{"article":{"id":82271,"heading":"Folly Taken To A Scale Not Seen Since WWII","author":"Robert Fisk","created":"2003-09-12 02:08:08","modified":"2013-11-11 00:25:44","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:25:44","article":"

Folly Taken To A Scale Not Seen Since WWII

By Robert Fisk

The Independent

9-11-3



When the attacks were launched against the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon two years ago today, who had ever heard of Fallujah or Hillah? When the Lebanese hijacker flew his plane into the ground in Pennsylvania, who would ever have believed that President George Bush would be announcing a \"new front line in the war on terror\" as his troops embarked on a hopeless campaign against the guerrillas of Iraq?

 

Who could ever have conceived of an American president calling the world to arms against \"terrorism\" in \"Afghanistan, Iraq and Gaza\"? Gaza? What do the miserable, crushed, cruelly imprisoned Palestinians of Gaza have to do with the international crimes against humanity in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania?

 

Nothing, of course. Neither does Iraq have anything to do with 11 September. Nor were there any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, any al-Qa'ida links with Iraq, any 45-minute timeline for the deployment of chemical weapons nor was there any \"liberation\".

 

No, the attacks on 11 September have nothing to do with Iraq. Neither did 11 September change the world. President Bush cruelly manipulated the grief of the American people - and the sympathy of the rest of the world - to introduce a \"world order\" dreamed up by a clutch of fantasists advising the Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld.

 

The Iraqi \"regime change\", as we now know, was planned as part of a Perle-Wolfowitz campaign document to the would-be Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu years before Bush came to power. It beggars belief that Tony Blair should have signed up to this nonsense without realising that it was no more nor less than a project invented by a group of pro-Israeli American neo-conservatives and right-wing Christian fundamentalists.

 

But even now, we are fed more fantasy. Afghanistan - its American-paid warlords raping and murdering their enemies, its women still shrouded for the most part in their burqas, its opium production now back as the world's number one export market, and its people being killed at up to a hundred a week (five American troops were shot dead two weekends ago) is a \"success\", something which Messrs Bush and Rumsfeld still boast about. Iraq - a midden of guerrilla hatred and popular resentment - is also a \"success\". Yes, Bush wants $87bn to keep Iraq running, he wants to go back to the same United Nations he condemned as a \"talking shop\" last year, he wants scores of foreign armies to go to Iraq to share the burdens of occupation - though not, of course, the decision-making, which must remain Washington's exclusive imperial preserve.

 

What's more, the world is supposed to accept the insane notion that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - the planet's last colonial war, although all mention of the illegal Jewish colonies in the West Bank and Gaza have been erased from the Middle East narrative in the American press - is part of the \"war on terror\", the cosmic clash of religious will that President Bush invented after 11 September. Could Israel's interests be better served by so infantile a gesture from Bush?

 

The vicious Palestinian suicide bombers and the grotesque implantation of Jews and Jews only in the colonies has now been set into this colossal struggle of \"good\" against \"evil\", in which even Ariel Sharon - named as \"personally\" responsible for the 1982 Sabra and Chatila massacre by Israel's own commission of inquiry - is \"a man of peace\", according to Mr Bush.

 

And new precedents are set without discussion. Washington kills the leadership of its enemies with impunity: it tries to kill Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar and does kill Uday and Qusay Hussein and boasts of its prowess in \"liquidating\" the al-Qa'ida leadership from rocket-firing \"drones\". It tries to kill Saddam in Baghdad and slaughters 16 civilians and admits that the operation was \"not risk-free\". In Afghanistan, three men have now been murdered in the US interrogation centre at Bagram. We still don't know what really goes on in Guantanamo.

 

What do these precedents mean? I have a dark suspicion. From now on, our leaders, our politicians, our statesmen will be fair game too. If we go for the jugular, why shouldn't they? The killing of the UN's Sergio Vieira de Mello, was not, I think, a chance murder. Hamas's most recent statements - and since they've been added to the Bush circus of evil, we should take them seriously - are now, more than ever, personally threatening Mr Sharon. Why should we expect any other leader to be safe? If Yasser Arafat is driven into exile yet again, will there be any restraints left?

 

Of course, America's enemies were a grisly bunch. Saddam soiled his country with the mass graves of the innocents, Mullah Omar allowed his misogynist legions to terrify an entire society in Afghanistan. But in their absence, we have created banditry, rape, kidnapping, guerrilla war and anarchy. And all in the name of the dead of 11 September. The future of the Middle East - which is what 11 September was partly about, though we are not allowed to say so - has never looked bleaker or more bloody. The United States and Britain are trapped in a war of their own making, responsible for their own appalling predicament but responsible, too, for the lives of thousands of innocent human beings - cut to pieces by American bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq, shot down in the streets of Iraq by trigger-happy GIs.

 

As for \"terror\", our enemies are closing in on our armies in Iraq and our supposed allies in Baghdad and Afghanistan - even in Pakistan. We have done all this in the name of the dead of 11 September. Not since the Second World War have we seen folly on this scale. And it has scarcely begun.

 

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<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"No, the attacks on 11 September have nothing to do with Iraq. Neither did 11 September change the world. President Bush cruelly manipulated the grief of the American people - and the sympathy of the rest of the world - to introduce a "world order" dreamed up by a clutch of fantasists advising the Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld. ","numcomment":34,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/09\/82271.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":82275,"heading":"COFFERS AND COFFINS","article":"COFFERS AND COFFINS\r\n\r\nGeorge Bush is on the road once more,\r\nRaising more money for Two Thousand Four,\r\nAnd before a formal black tie crowd\r\nWill stand victorious and proud;\r\nThis posturing hero of Iraq\r\nWill carry at least $2 million dollars back.\r\n\r\nThe recon sergeant in his Humvee\r\nStruck a land mine no one could see,\r\nAnd there on the road where it was laid,\r\nHe died alone, no honors paid.\r\nJust one more casualty in Iraq;\r\nThere were only body parts to carry back.\r\n\r\nAnd thus the war that began with lies\r\nStill claims its dreadful toll of lives;\r\nHail to the Chief! Hoist high the flags!\r\nAnd try not to notice the body bags.\r\nThe war is over as Bush proclaimed,\r\nBut only for the lost, the dead, the maimed.\r\n\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 ---Roy Ringer\r\n","author":"Abra Cadaver","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 03:16:55","modified":"2013-11-11 00:25:44","fileurl":""},{"id":82291,"heading":"Fisk is such a ...","article":"...moron.\r\n\r\nYet, since he spouts his anti-America tripe in so appealing a fashion, you yo-yos just eat it up.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 06:56:35","modified":"2003-09-12 06:56:35","fileurl":""},{"id":82307,"heading":"Logical Fallacy","article":""Fisk is such a moron."\r\n\r\nUnsubstantiated Allegation\r\nFor more on logic at YOUR level, try reading "Logic for Rightwing Dummies (pardon the redundancy)."","author":"debate coach","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 11:15:17","modified":"2003-09-12 11:15:17","fileurl":""},{"id":82309,"heading":"Scottie said israel attacking the USS Liberty was an accident","article":"Here's a TV program someone recorded - it's a bunch of interviews with men *on the ship at the time* talking about how the pilots were buzzing by so close they *even waved at eachother* and so on (the ship was flying an american flag as big as a billboard in BROAD DAYLIGHT) \r\n\r\nListening to these men who went through it talking about it in thier own words there's *absolutely no question* israel knew they were attacking an american ship killing 34, injuring 172\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3\r\n\r\n(20.kbps MP3PRO 45.min \/ 6.3MB - streamable)\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 11:17:46","modified":"2003-09-12 11:17:46","fileurl":""},{"id":82418,"heading":"one little problem","article":""*absolutely no question* israel knew they were attacking an american ship "\r\nthis is a ridiculous statement as it can never be proven. Besides the fact that the israelis had absolutely no reason to attack a us ship is the fact that they ceased the attack when they realized the vessel in a war-zone might not be an enemy ship. I.E. they made a mistake and stopped the attack. Its called friendly fire. Here's a few example.\r\n"Accidents caused by "friendly fire" are not uncommon in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by "friendly fire." In fact, only the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank." As a former high-ranking Israeli naval officer, Shlomo Erell, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): "No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles."\r\n better get to work cooking up conspiracies for the rest of these instances.","author":"jamal","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 17:36:47","modified":"2003-09-12 17:36:47","fileurl":""},{"id":82422,"heading":"one BIG problem","article":"> this is a ridiculous statement as it can never be proven\r\n\r\n\r\nOBVIOUSLY you didn't listen to it.\r\n\r\n\r\nThis is interviews with >>> MEN ABOARD THE USS LIBERTY *AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK* saying IN THIER OWN WORDS that the pilots of the ISRAELI JETS were flying by SO CLOSE that one of them *** EVEN WAVED AT HIM*** and he WAVED BACK.\r\n\r\nA huge AMERICAN FLAG was flapping in the breeze...\r\n\r\nTHEY WERE JAMMING ONLY >>> US NAVY FREQUENCIES <<< and shooting antennas on the ship to prevent them from calling for help, they had to string up long-wire antennas and run coax to get a signal out for help.\r\n\r\nThis is just a TINY PART of the DIRECT EYE-WITNESS testimony of THE MEN THEMSELVES...\r\n\r\nPLEASE >>>LISTEN TO IT <<<.\r\n\r\nThe ignorance and denial of some people is simply amazing. This program is DIRECTLY FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTHES. With a huge AMERICAN FLAG flapping in the breeze, with the pilots so close they *even waved at eachother* there's NO WAY IN HELL the pilots could NOT SEE THE HUGE AMERICAN FLAG.\r\n\r\nPlus it contains translations of ISRAELI RADIO TRAFFIC telling them "you have your orders, attack" when the pilots SAID it was an AMEERICAN SHIP.\r\n\r\nLISTEN TO THE DAMN THING, denialist jackass.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 17:49:38","modified":"2003-09-12 17:49:38","fileurl":""},{"id":82432,"heading":""Scottie said israel attacking the USS Liberty was an accident"","article":"Yeah...in ANOTHER thread.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 18:19:25","modified":"2003-09-12 18:19:25","fileurl":""},{"id":82434,"heading":"Re: the lie was said in another thread","article":"And your point being ?\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 18:23:19","modified":"2003-09-12 18:23:19","fileurl":""},{"id":82437,"heading":"Point being...","article":"...you should change your handle to Non-Sequitur Boy.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 18:31:52","modified":"2003-09-12 18:31:52","fileurl":""},{"id":82441,"heading":"oh the horror of it !","article":"> Non-Sequitur \r\n\r\nWell I guess that's better than a game playing, tap-dancing lying denialist...\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 18:40:48","modified":"2003-09-12 18:40:48","fileurl":""},{"id":82449,"heading":"Hex","article":"Exactly what have I denied?\r\n\r\nExactly what have I lied about?\r\n\r\nSee, if you make claims like that, you need to back them up.\r\n\r\nJust because you say so isn't good enough.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 18:52:31","modified":"2003-09-12 18:52:31","fileurl":""},{"id":82453,"heading":"Fisk knows what's happening","article":"I think the reason the right is afraid of Robert Fisk is that he's actually spent enough time in the Middle East to really understand what's going on there.\r\n\r\nHe doesn't paint the US in a rosy light, it's true, but it's because through our actions we have shown we don't deserve it.","author":"strum","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 19:04:39","modified":"2003-09-12 19:04:39","fileurl":""},{"id":82455,"heading":"I've a better idea - just lie again for us !","article":"Was israel's attack on the USS Liberty accidental ?\r\n\r\nCome on now, lie to me, p l e a s e ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 19:18:33","modified":"2003-09-12 19:18:33","fileurl":""},{"id":82458,"heading":"Fisk said there were no US troops...","article":"...at Baghdad International Airport.\r\n\r\nThey were right behind him.\r\n\r\nHe has no credibility whatsoever.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 19:29:52","modified":"2003-09-12 19:29:52","fileurl":""},{"id":82460,"heading":"It's hard to deny...","article":"...eyewitness accounts.\r\n\r\nIt looks like Israel is culpable.\r\n\r\nSorry to disappont you; I'm not a liar. Please quote for me a lie I've said.\r\n\r\nIf you can. And you can't.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 19:33:01","modified":"2003-09-12 19:33:01","fileurl":""},{"id":82492,"heading":"how about that.","article":"> It's hard to deny eyewitness accounts. It looks like Israel is culpable. \r\n\r\nWow I've got new respect for you.\r\n\r\nlater\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:02:37","modified":"2003-09-12 21:02:37","fileurl":""},{"id":82496,"heading":""Wow I've got new respect for you."","article":"Well.\r\n\r\nMy life is complete.\r\n\r\nMeanwhile, you called me a liar with no reason other than you thought we disagreed.\r\n\r\nI still have no respect for you.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:10:47","modified":"2003-09-12 21:10:47","fileurl":""},{"id":82498,"heading":"That's rich, coming from a moron like you.","article":""You buggers are foolish."\r\nby nonanarchist Thursday September 11, 2003 08:42 AM\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nThanks! I am KPC\/Sheepdog\/smashtheleft\/ajoyousgay. I change my posting handles more often than I change my underwear. \r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"anti-nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:13:10","modified":"2003-09-12 21:13:10","fileurl":""},{"id":82502,"heading":"but this is only one of several","article":"> Meanwhile, you called me a liar with no reason other than you thought we disagreed. \r\n\r\nI still have no respect for you.\r\n\r\n\r\nWell you weren't foolish enough to bald-face lie about this issue, however I've posted this several times and you at no point up until I firmly pinned you down on it, admitted israel did do it on purpose, not to mention all the other FACTS I've posted like the UN resolution condemning israel as racist, the JDL terrorism, the documented israeli terrorism and so on..\r\n\r\nThis this one issue..\r\n\r\nSo with all these remaining issues that's not exactly "no reason" now is it ?\r\n\r\nBut again I did want to express my kudos on this issue at least..\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:19:05","modified":"2003-09-12 21:19:05","fileurl":""},{"id":82505,"heading":"Pinned me down?","article":"You mean, like when I forced you to admit Muslim extremist terrorism?\r\n\r\nOh, yeah...you weaseled out of that one.\r\n\r\nYou are just completely unable to say: "Blowing up a busload of Israeli children is bad", aren't you?","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:25:08","modified":"2003-09-12 21:25:08","fileurl":""},{"id":82507,"heading":"That's rich, coming from a moron like you.","article":""You buggers are foolish." \r\nby nonanarchist Thursday September 11, 2003 08:42 AM \r\n\r\n\r\nThanks! I am KPC\/Sheepdog\/smashtheleft\/ajoyousgay. I change my posting handles more often than I change my underwear. \r\n\r\n","author":"anti-nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:27:14","modified":"2003-09-12 21:27:14","fileurl":""},{"id":82509,"heading":"repeating ourselves are we ?","article":"> You are just completely unable to say: "Blowing up a busload of Israeli children is bad", aren't you?\r\n\r\nWe've discussed this already... The giant israeli propaganda machine does more than a fine job of screaming this out to the whole world already - I don't *need* to make any statements along those lines because of it.\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:33:03","modified":"2003-09-12 21:33:03","fileurl":""},{"id":82514,"heading":"You mean you're unwilling to admit...","article":"...that killing CHILDREN is a bad thing?\r\n\r\nDude...what the hell is wrong with you?\r\n\r\nDo Israeli children count for less, since they're Israeli?\r\n\r\n","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:36:26","modified":"2003-09-12 21:36:26","fileurl":""},{"id":82520,"heading":"simple fact","article":"Asses like hex simply hate Jews.\r\n\r\nGet used to it.\r\n\r\nNothing else can explain why they show such transparent concern for the butchers of "palestine".\r\n\r\nThey certainly don't give a fuck about the living conditions anywhere else in the middle east.\r\n\r\nAnd NO one is THAT ignorant of history unless they are flat out lying.\r\n\r\nNo, hex and his ilk are simply garden variety racists.\r\n\r\nIt is fun to watch them squirm however when backed into an inteleectual corner.\r\n\r\nStill waiting for someone to answer the question of by what magic is the ligitamately conquered land of Egypt, Syria and Jordan all of a sudden "palestine"?\r\n\r\nBut I only ask because I know it infuriates them. The answer dissolves all their rhetoric and exposes them as the race haters they are.\r\n\r\nPerfect.","author":"fresca","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:47:38","modified":"2003-09-12 21:47:38","fileurl":""},{"id":82522,"heading":"That was me","article":"That's right, I'm fresca. I'm also smashtheleft, nonanarchist, and a whole host of others. \r\n\r\n","author":"KOBE SBM","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:52:19","modified":"2003-09-12 21:52:19","fileurl":""},{"id":82523,"heading":"take me to the ball game","article":"> inteleectual corner\r\n\r\neek !\r\n\r\n\r\nHey - ya got any evidence to back those up ?\r\n\r\n\r\nyours truely -\r\n\r\nthe fucking nut\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 21:53:14","modified":"2003-09-12 21:53:14","fileurl":""},{"id":82528,"heading":"Absolutely","article":""Hey - ya got any evidence to back those up ? "\r\n\r\nAre you actually asking for evidence for facts that exist in common knowledge?\r\n\r\nPull yourself away from the breadboard and read a little history. Start with the Six Day war.\r\n\r\nConsider yourself trounced.","author":"fresca","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 22:02:40","modified":"2003-09-12 22:02:40","fileurl":""},{"id":82530,"heading":"That was me","article":"That's right, I'm fresca. I'm also smashtheleft, nonanarchist, and a whole host of others. \r\n\r\n","author":"KOBE SBM","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 22:03:52","modified":"2003-09-12 22:03:52","fileurl":""},{"id":82533,"heading":"Fresca's outsmarted me","article":"> Consider yourself trounced.\r\n\r\nSpectacular ! That's the most solid proof ever.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 22:11:11","modified":"2003-09-12 22:11:11","fileurl":""},{"id":82535,"heading":"what?","article":""Spectacular ! That's the most solid proof ever. "\r\n\r\nYou've read the books and can't fiqure it out?\r\n\r\nKeep moving. \r\n\r\nPuddings almost done.","author":"fresca","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 22:12:31","modified":"2003-09-12 22:12:31","fileurl":""},{"id":82537,"heading":"That was me","article":"That's right, I'm fresca. I'm also smashtheleft, nonanarchist, and a whole host of others. \r\n\r\n","author":"KOBE SBM","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-12 22:14:28","modified":"2003-09-12 22:14:28","fileurl":""},{"id":82676,"heading":"hex","article":"Why did you suddenly bring this to another thread?\r\nbut now that you are talking about specifics as opposed to refering to a propoganda piece.\r\n\r\nThe arabs states have agreed that the attack was accidental since according to Arab sources the US Navy was at the time actively helping Israel. (fancy that?) And as you would probably say in the context of other conspiricy theories Fully aware of any crimes of war that israel was engaging in.\r\n\r\n"This is interviews with >>> MEN ABOARD THE USS LIBERTY *AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK* saying IN THIER OWN WORDS that the pilots of the ISRAELI JETS were flying by SO CLOSE that one of them *** EVEN WAVED AT HIM*** and he WAVED BACK."\r\n\r\nDoes that imply the person thought he was killing americans or egyptians? I think it implies egyptians. If you were killing a crew of an ally would you wave at them? \r\n\r\n"A huge AMERICAN FLAG was flapping in the breeze..."\r\n\r\n- according to the israelis it was not opened by a breeze. It is surprising that such a mistake would be made in any specific case but over a period of time these errors will happen. Ill accept the conclusion that the marage pilot was an idiot if you like.\r\n\r\n"THEY WERE JAMMING ONLY >>> US NAVY FREQUENCIES <<< and shooting antennas on the ship to prevent them from calling for help, they had to string up long-wire antennas and run coax to get a signal out for help."\r\n\r\nIt is normal policy to remove the enemy ability to communicate. Did they kill everyone? If not then what is the logic behind stopping them from seeking help? even in your conspiricy theory they presumably wanted " to prevent the ship from reporting the impending invasion of the Golan Heights" and use "fog of war" defense. They didnt need to destroy the ship just criple it (which is what happened) they were going to have to face up to it anyway. (or explain your conspiricy further if you like)\r\n\r\n"This is just a TINY PART of the DIRECT EYE-WITNESS testimony of THE MEN THEMSELVES..."\r\n\r\n-This is the thing with conspiricy theories. if you take all the evidence from one side of an argument and put it in a tape then you can "prove" anything. thats why there is an adverserial system in US law. \r\n\r\n"The ignorance and denial of some people is simply amazing. "\r\n\r\nI agree that they are "culpable" in that it was a pretty terrible example of negligence on the behalf of multiple people but I disagree that your evidence is anything more than circumstantial that israel is guilty of intentionaly doing it and under innocent until proven guilty (which as I said is usuallly the case) I'll consider them negligently innocent. \r\n\r\nOK NOW FOR THE ALTERNATIVE\r\nSome Israelis screwed up, due to the tension stress and bias missing obvious information. Then, unable to explain their stupidity, they tried to cover up not the attack itself but their individual stupidity.\r\nThis is common in other situations from armies to companies. In time people may even start to believe their self justification.\r\n\r\nApparently the ships was ordered to stay beyond 100 miles from the coast, but the captain of the Liberty was "not aware" of this. One stupid action on the american side why not a few on the israeli side? \r\n\r\n- The ship could have been mistaken for a soviet vessel but they were not going to admit to trying to fire on a Soviet ship. (runs into some of the same problems as the current conspiricy theory but gets around some of hte objections)\r\n\r\n- An order to investigate the ship was botched and the pilot therefore unable to admit his mistake made a guess. \r\n\r\n- They were chasing a egyptian ship and they mistook it for the egyptian ship. (standard excuse here)\r\n\r\n- Arab or Soviet forces may have caused confusion intentionally.\r\n\r\nvarious errors reported in reports\r\n\r\n- The Israeli naval officers IDed Liberty, but the board got erased on the shift change.\r\n\r\n- There was an explosion in Gaza, erroneously reported as shelling.\r\n\r\n- just prior to the attack Liberty turned towards Egypt- as if it wasan egyptian (or otherwise egyptian friendly vessel) running.\r\n\r\n- The American's returned fire. The moment they opend fire the israelis became 100% sure they were the enemy.\r\n\r\n\r\n"This program is DIRECTLY FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTHES.\r\n\r\nThe horses nmouth is the pilot the peopel on the ship are not "the horses mouth"\r\n\r\n"there's NO WAY IN HELL the pilots could NOT SEE THE HUGE AMERICAN FLAG."\r\n\r\n- Yes if it was not waving or in all sorts of other conditions. use your imagination.\r\nThere are lots of friendly fire incidents even in modern american military although I guess it would be easy to make a conspiricy theory there especially if the pilots were jews.\r\n\r\nPlus it contains translations of ISRAELI RADIO TRAFFIC telling them "you have your orders, attack" when the pilots SAID it was an AMEERICAN SHIP.\r\n\r\nYou mean radio traffic intercepted by Dwight Porter? Using his super powers in Lebanon 205 miles away?\r\nOh wait he said that he hadn't told the reporters the intercept was made by or in the U.S. Embassy. so who knows how he got the ability to intercept Israeli comunications..\r\n Are you saying the pilots used signals that can be intercepted that far away? and didnt he say he had destroyed those?\r\nCloser recordings seem to support negligence.\r\n\r\nSounds like a conspiricy against israel rather than for it.\r\n\r\nIf I was a conspiricy theorist I would say\r\n\r\nThe Liberty was in the middle of a war and running contrary to orders, which they claim they never received. Their flag was not obvious their They got caught up in something they should have been trained for and continued to provoke hostilities when they fired on Israeli torpedo boats. \r\nAs a result just like the israelis above they need a scapegoat and the obvious scape goat is the israelis. As a result both intentionally and unintentionally these conspiricy things emerge.\r\n\r\nThat and there are a large number of people who have vested intersts in people believing in these things.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-13 18:21:11","modified":"2003-09-13 18:21:11","fileurl":""},{"id":82677,"heading":"scottie's deny at all costs TIME SINK GAMES","article":"me> THEY WERE JAMMING ONLY >>> US NAVY FREQUENCIES <<< \r\n\r\n\r\n> It is normal policy to remove the enemy ability to communicate.\r\n\r\nAh but your ignorance shows - the frequencies are *internationaly allocated* and > no one BUT the United States Navy < are even ALLOWED to be on them.\r\n\r\n\r\nOne crewman (in the report I posted) specifically mentioned he *remembered the HUGE AMERICAN FLAG *FLAPPING IN THE WIND*, and NO one said the flag WASN'T (except of course YOU - JUST NOW)\r\n\r\nTime sink games - no matter what proof is posted, even direct eyewtiness accounts and actual radio traffic - just continue to deny at all costs, SIMPLY as a way to waste people's time.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3\r\n\r\nThe report speaks for it'self, the CREWMEN SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.\r\n\r\nAnyone with even the SLIGHTEST DOUBT about the FACT that israel attacked the ship INTENTIONALLY, please simply listen to the crewmen say *in thier own words* and with the *actual radio traffic* of israeli command *telling them "you have your orders - attack" after the PILOTS SAID IT WAS AN AMERICAN SHIP.\r\n\r\nSimply listen to the report\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-13 18:38:07","modified":"2003-09-13 18:38:07","fileurl":""},{"id":82708,"heading":"well...","article":"I am not "denying at all costs. Maybe they planed it and they wanted to kill a bunch of americans. But I dont think you are proven that. you have provided a semi plausible conspiricy theory which isnt quite as good as the semi plausible israeli scenerio (which contains its own distortions of course)\r\n\r\nAlso I think that they are "culpable" in that if you make that sort of a mistake you are culpable and all the usual heads should roll criminal negligences etc etc. \r\n\r\nHowever as I said before it is not a big issue to me.\r\nIt is just a diversion. EVEN IF your conspiricy theory is true.\r\n\r\n"Ah but your ignorance shows - the frequencies are *internationaly allocated* and > no one BUT the United States Navy < are even ALLOWED to be on them."\r\n\r\nI was refering to the shooting of antennas on the ships (the second part) which is why I did not cut that off when making the quote not to specific blocking of "US only" frequencies \r\nHowever there are lots of frequencies dont tell me the US and the Egyptians don't have a backup plan if people block their allocated frequency. Unless they were blocking a range of the usual frequencies. \r\n\r\n"One crewman (in the report I posted) specifically mentioned he *remembered the HUGE AMERICAN FLAG *FLAPPING IN THE WIND*"\r\n\r\nA) did you read what I said about covering their asses?\r\nthe use of the word "huge" says somthing in itself.\r\nB) just cause it was waving then wouldnt mean it is waving now.\r\n\r\n-" and NO one said the flag WASN'T (except of course YOU - JUST NOW)"\r\n\r\nYes the israelis did. (aren't you up to date on what both sides said?)\r\n\r\n"Time sink games - no matter what proof is posted, even direct eyewtiness accounts and actual radio traffic "\r\n\r\n- actual radio traffic do you mean that radio traffic that you presumably thing is forged that indicates israel did it by acident?\r\n- how about eye witnesses from the israeli side who were eyewitnessing the stuff that matters for intent (what was happening on the israeli side) which collectively say they were negligent?\r\n\r\nJust saying that we could both create a nice mp3 that "proves our point". \r\n\r\nThe fact that I know how easy it is to provide a circumstantial conspiricy theory means that I am very reluctant to believe conspiricy theories. \r\n\r\nAlot of people WANT israel to be guilty. they dont just want to uncover a war crime they actually want this to have been a war crime because that would further their cause. Often they feel providing fake evidence that israel is quilty would be OK because israel must be guilty of somthing. (even in this incident they were at least negligent).","author":"Scottie","parent_id":82271,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-13 20:51:17","modified":"2003-09-13 20:51:17","fileurl":""}]}