Blows to Israel Must Never Go Unanswered
The nation's security depends upon exacting a tremendous price against those who attack it
By Martin Peretz, Martin Peretz is editor in chief of the New Republic.
Jewish history had prepared neither Gentile nor Jew for the cosmic achievements the Zionist enterprise would make in the process of reconstituting a nation. These achievements are easily summarized: the ingathering of a millennially dispersed and diverse people; the regeneration of its ancient and near-moribund language; the fashioning of a lively and democratic polity and press; a genuinely independent judiciary; the mobilization of one of the two or three most proficient and scrupulous militaries in the world; the crafting of a commonwealth curious, open, tolerant — a nation-state not unlike the United States.
At the end of a century of unthinkably cruel and ultimately empty revolutions — Nazism, communism — Israel stands virtually alone in the right to assert that, after the crackup of empires and rage for popular sovereignties, it is a success, and a decent one at that.
Now envision Israel in its actual neighborhood — the tyrannical societies of the Middle East made even more twisted by corrupting and unproductive oil wealth — and you have a standing reproach to the Arab hubris that lies to itself.
From the western Sahara to the deserts abutting the Persian Gulf, not a single regime beyond Israel has so much as even embarked, or allowed its entrepreneurs to embark, on the exacting beginnings of industrial advance. This wide swath of terrain on which a quarter of a billion people live produces with all its hands and brains just about what little Finland or Spain does. Remind yourself also that not one ruler across the region governs by consent of the ruled. Evoke the phantoms of lost grandeur put in the heads of miserable boys and girls by dogma and dogmatics.
Mesh all this together and you have some sense of why the West is resented on the Arab street and why, moreover, Israel has not been able to reach, for all its accomplishments, the one quintessential and existential goal articulated by Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, that \"the Jew be able to die peacefully in his own bed.\" And maybe he never will.
It may be that Israel is doomed to live dangerously, even if a shooting, a stabbing, even a bombing on a bus or in a mall occurs only every few years. Maybe there is no enforceable peace treaty that can truly guarantee against crackpots and random fanatics.
Israel's longtime enemy, and its enemy today, is of the very same terror that was launched on us on Sept. 11, but, if less confounding, more routine and more tolerated. It is the world's acceptance of the routinization of this killing of Jews that has so affronted Israel and its allies.
One of the fundamental and actionable principles of Zionism is that Jewish blood is no longer cheap. It follows that the shedding of Jewish blood will not pass without an accounting, without being avenged. And not just for vengeance's sake. But to bring about the elimination of the organized blood sport in Jewish lives.
The fact is that Israel has for years vacillated between responding to terror with exquisitely calibrated force and pacifying terrorists by giving them some of what they want — for example, the release of prisoners. The latter option is, of course, always the preferred path of the peace process interlocutors, even the American ones.
But, alas, despite the éclat, there had been no actual cease-fire in place since the end of June, although that was the absolute precondition of the \"road map.\" Still, Israel had to pretend, not least of all to its own people, that there was. Otherwise it couldn't go on making concessions to the Palestinians, whether textually obligated or not. And if it didn't make concession after concession, everybody would know that the road map was a map to nowhere.
But no one could really pretend either that Hamas and Islamic Jihad had actually agreed to the famous hudna because day after day, week after week one or another of these groups (and sometimes two competing with each other and with the devil himself) would claim credit for some macabre death happening in Israel.
The Palestinian Authority itself renounced its obligation to squelch these murderous militias, at once asserting its impotence and claiming that any attempt to fight them would lead to civil strife it could not win. So it seemed almost ungentlemanly for the Israelis to insist that the Palestinian Authority try. After all, if the Palestinian Authority lost, Israel would be without a partner at all in the cease-fire that, as it happens, ceased very little fire, indeed.
But the keeping up of pretenses does not advance the cause of peace. Yet it is precisely the keeping up of pretenses that the high-minded folk are always recommending.
When Israel sent a helicopter gunship to kill a top Hamas leader in retaliation for the latest Jerusalem atrocity that claimed 21 Israeli lives, a New York Times editorial criticized Israel for its hasty response: \"It is far from clear what would have been lost by giving the Palestinians more time.\"
The United States is in great measure responsible for the moral ambiguity of peace-making between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinian strategy is terror, pure and simple, like the terror of Al Qaeda and whoever bombed the center of Bombay on Aug. 25. George W. Bush has not quite admitted this, but he has come close. Still, his diplomats behave as if there are two different categories of terror: one with which we can never compromise and another that we will reward with a state.
This is a bankrupt program, both morally and practically.
The reasonable solution to the Palestine question has always been a partition, and there have been various partition plans proposed since the first one enunciated by Winston Churchill in 1922. Each and every one of them has been rejected, by the surrounding Arab states and by the Palestinians.
History moves forward, but not the Arabs.
The fervor for Hamas and Islamic Jihad among the Palestinians is an expression of that rejectionism. The martyrology that attends it shows also that it is quite mad.
Israel has shown that it is willing to give up territories for a contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank. It now must show that it will not tolerate a war of terror against the partition formula that, with caveats here and there, has been accepted since 1922.
The chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Moshe Yaalon, warned recently that \"every Hamas member must now be considered a candidate for liquidation.\" Coming in the middle of a declared cease-fire, the Jerusalem bombing that killed 21 civilians has changed the ground rules because the ground itself has changed.
It is now abundantly clear that the Palestinian leadership, lubricated into power by the United States, is either unable or unwilling to fight its own terrorists. Its pledge to do so, like its pledge to reform, is either a trick or a failure. It does not really matter which.
The defeat of terror takes overwhelming force, and only Israel itself can provide it. Indeed, only Israel should.
When Israel undertook to root out the terror network in Jenin last year, it suffered 23 of its own dead, more certainly than the U.S. military would have inflicted on itself in a similar circumstance. Despite this, Israel was pummeled, not least by the United Nations, for committing atrocities that it did not commit. Now everyone knows the truth, although some still perpetuate the falsehoods. But Israel succeeded in decapitating the head of the viper from its body.
The rocket attacks of recent days on Hamas leadership in Gaza are an augury of what is about to occur: first, the building of the fence that will secure Israel's population from their inveterate foes and, then, relentless attacks on the armed irreconcilables.
These attacks will come from the air and also be fought on the streets, deftly and precisely.
There will be ululating mourners and grim-faced youth waving the bloody shirts of their martyrs. But, in the end, they will learn that Jewish blood is not cheap at all and that those who shed it will pay a tremendous price, too high a price to go on with the killing that will bring on their heads only reprisal and not, of course, the prize of a state. <\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"Nice LA TIMES (whodda thunk it?) op-ed pice","numcomment":93,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/09\/81240.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":81241,"heading":"now","article":"Let the hate and whining begin.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 17:53:13","modified":"2003-09-07 17:53:13","fileurl":""},{"id":81245,"heading":"Answer: Israel Blows All Right!","article":""At the end of a century of unthinkably cruel and ultimately empty revolutions \u2014 Nazism, communism..."\r\n\r\nand Zionism.","author":"M. Vanunu","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 18:10:39","modified":"2013-11-11 00:25:37","fileurl":""},{"id":81264,"heading":"Ah, there it is","article":"Excellent, the first volley of typical vapid racism. Hats off to you vanunu or whatever the hell you call yourself.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 19:59:47","modified":"2003-09-07 19:59:47","fileurl":""},{"id":81266,"heading":"Any criticism of Israel is racism, right fresca?","article":"You're so full of shit your eyes are brown.","author":"2nd rate soft drink","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 20:10:08","modified":"2003-09-07 20:10:08","fileurl":""},{"id":81267,"heading":"Just to clear up fresca's confusion","article":"","author":"Fanta","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"image\/gif","created":"2003-09-07 20:23:29","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:24","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/sharon-the-butcher.gif","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/sharon-the-butcher.gif"}},{"id":81277,"heading":"Israel not unlike the United States","article":" Actually, that part is true - it is racist, imperialist, thinks nothing of slaughtering third world people, sells weapons to fascist dictators, has a nuclear arsenal which it has threatened to use on third world people, and took part in the Iraqi wmd scam with Bush and Blair.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 21:31:34","modified":"2003-09-07 21:31:34","fileurl":""},{"id":81284,"heading":"Nope, not at all","article":""Any criticism of Israel is racism, right fresca?\r\n"\r\n\r\nNot at all, racist.\r\n\r\nBut certainly any total denial of history, the absolute defense of the arab world's open wish of Israels' annihilation and the blaming of Israel for every atrocity can ONLY be described as racist.\r\n\r\nYou and yours simply refuse to study the history of the situation because it sheds such an ill light on your arab heroes and that's a symptom of racism.\r\n\r\nAccept it. You're a bigot.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 22:04:53","modified":"2003-09-07 22:04:53","fileurl":""},{"id":81292,"heading":"And for Fanta","article":"in a nutshell","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"image\/gif","created":"2003-09-07 22:24:38","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:24","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/pal.gifuvl2dh.gif","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/pal.gifuvl2dh.gif"}},{"id":81306,"heading":"Funny, fresca","article":"You have to know history to deny it, but your ignorance is beyond that.","author":"Speak Truth To 2nd rate Soft Drinks","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 23:17:01","modified":"2003-09-07 23:17:01","fileurl":""},{"id":81309,"heading":"Funny, fresca","article":"You have to know history to deny it, but clearly your ignorance is beyond that.","author":"Speak Truth To 2nd Rate Soft Drinks","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-07 23:30:18","modified":"2003-09-07 23:30:18","fileurl":""},{"id":81310,"heading":"I thought I'd get that girl - in the end","article":"pretty fresca - did you paste that yourself or did your handler do it ?\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"audio\/mpeg","created":"2003-09-07 23:30:18","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:24","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/frescas_songp.mp3"},{"id":81315,"heading":"Funny, fresca","article":"You have to know history to deny it, but clearly your ignorance is beyond that.","author":"Speak Truth To 2nd Rate Soft Drinks","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-08 00:10:19","modified":"2003-09-08 00:10:19","fileurl":""},{"id":81379,"heading":"please then","article":"Please enlighten me then. I'm all ears. Tell us all the "history" that you feel has alluded my learning. I can't wait.\r\n\r\nHow about starting with Egypt, Syria and Jordan stealing the Gaze Strip, Golen Heights and the West Bank, respectively from the would-be "palestinians" in 1948.\r\n\r\nThat would be great because so many people don't seem to know about that around here since they never seem to have an opinion of it when asked.\r\n\r\nThanks for your help.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-08 21:35:11","modified":"2003-09-08 21:35:11","fileurl":""},{"id":81393,"heading":"ms "all ears" I have some facts for you","article":"Looking over the UN resolutions and specifically the more recent one right before 9-11 where the *entire world* condemed israel as RACIST and for the treatment of the PALESTINIANS...\r\n\r\nWith the validity of these facts beyond refute and with the argument that they are only resolutions making the next step warfare (what else are an occupied people to when even international law fails them, thanks strictly to israel's & the US's veto power and nothing else) how does "all ears" propose to solve this problem ?\r\n\r\nIf you were in thier shoes, what would YOU do once all UN resolutions have been ignored when even *every other country in the world* has agreed and condemed israel's actions with YOU ?\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-08 22:52:53","modified":"2003-09-08 22:52:53","fileurl":""},{"id":81398,"heading":"roll over hexie","article":"Looking over the UN resolutions and specifically the more recent one right before 9-11 where the *entire world* condemed israel as RACIST and for the treatment of the PALESTINIANS... \r\n\r\n\r\n
"Just when did the "entire world" ever comdemn Israel as racist? Never. Even the UN and their inane resolutions have never branded Israel as racist. So, give it a rest. It's tired, silly and illinformed"<\/b>\r\n\r\n
With the validity of these facts beyond refute \r\n\r\n"See above...refuted...utterly"<\/b>\r\n\r\n\r\n
and with the argument that they are only resolutions \r\n\r\n
(look, I don't want to insult you, but if we are going to have a discussion, you really need to write better. You sentence structure is very uncommunicative)<\/b>\r\n\r\n
making the next step warfare (what else are an occupied people to when even international law fails them, thanks strictly to israel's & the US's veto power and nothing else) how does "all ears" propose to solve this problem ? \r\n\r\n
Here's how I would solve the problem.\r\nIsrael, having the upper hand, must make concessions and kickstart the process by withdrawing from the some contiguous portion of the territory it rightfully acquired in 1967 when it was attcked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel must, in effect, bite the bullet and GIVE the soon to be Palestinians land of their own. Ultimately, this is tantamount to rewarding terrorism with land that was never "palestinain" to begin with, but it must be done. Subsequently, the Palestinians MUST condemn, and destroy the culture of violence and worship of terrorists that the likes of Hamsa et.al, create and feed. These UN resolutions which are non-binding and ultimately thinly veiled typical anti-semitism, would leave Israel completely open to more attack and make the Islamic fundamentalist dream of "killing all Jews wherever they may be found" a reality. It's really simple. Once Israel is made to feel safe military actions against palestinian terrorists and their supporters will cease. Palestine will then be able to take a stab at statehood.<\/b>\r\n\r\n
Of course, none of this will happen as long as people like you feel the need to deny or rewrite history so that the "palestinians" and their arab brothers are poor innocent victims of the evil Jews.<\/b>\r\n\r\n
Both sides have an EQUAL hand in this mess. Furthermore, other states have a part in it as well. "palestinians" haven't faired so well at the hands of Egypt Syria, Lebanon or Jordan (remeber Black September?) either.<\/b>\r\n\r\n
There is a way for both of these people to live side by side but as long as the arab world focuses all of its attention on demonizing Israel instead of moving forward and helping it's own people peace will never come.<\/b>","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/html","created":"2003-09-08 23:24:49","modified":"2003-09-08 23:24:49","fileurl":""},{"id":81403,"heading":"truth facts and reality are a bitch","article":"> Just when did the "entire world" ever comdemn Israel as racist? Never. Even the UN and their inane resolutions have never branded Israel as racist. So, give it a rest. It's tired, silly and illinformed" \r\n\r\n\r\nWhat in the hell is THIS then ?\r\n\r\n\r\nUN resolution calling Israel racist Sep 4th 2001\r\n\r\nTHE UN racism conference in Durban, South Africa, appears close ... NGOs) attached to the conference adopted a resolution calling Israel a "racist apartheid state ...\r\n\r\nNations headquarters condemning anti-Israel measures at the UN racism conference ... as 3,000 NGOs in Durban passed a resolution calling Israel a "racist ...\r\n\r\nThe UN Racism Conference: Close to chaos \r\nSep 4th 2001 \r\n\r\nOutraged by attempts to label Israel the world's most racist \r\nstate, American and Israeli delegations have withdrawn from the \r\nUN World Conference Against Racism. Can anything be salvaged from \r\nthe mess? \r\n\r\n\r\nTHE UN racism conference in Durban, South Africa, appears close \r\nto collapse, after America and Israel pulled out on Tuesday \r\nSeptember 3rd. \r\n\r\nAll the world's countries (other than america and israel) plus 3,000 NGO's condems israel as a racist apartheid state\r\n\r\nThis was just days before 9-11 which distracted everyone...\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nHELLO ? fresca - Are we in denial yet ?\r\n\r\nSo when the FACTS get in the way of your fantasy simply brush the FACTS aside in dismissal "Both sides have an EQUAL hand in this mess. and illinformed"\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> look, I don't want to insult you, but if we are going to have a discussion, you really need to write better. You sentence structure is very uncommunicative\r\n\r\n\r\nI don't want to insult you but since I have nothing better to say - I will anyway. Well don't get too high & mighty - I think there's a prpb with "you" spelling too !\r\n\r\n\r\n> These UN resolutions which are non-binding and ultimately thinly veiled typical anti-semitism\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd here's the "tired, silly" idea that the whole world hates zionists whom hide BEHIND JEWS. Talk about worn-out. It's o worn out in fact that nobody believes it anymore. Anything zionists aren't free to do becomes "anti-semitism"... That old chestnut.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Both sides have an EQUAL hand in this mess. \r\n\r\nI see so we give Palestine 9,000,000,000 dollars a year in military support, Palestinians are the one's with US supplied nukes, tanks, machine guns, they are the one's building the wall in "israel" - right through "israel". They have killed some 3,200 israelis, while israel killed 800 of them...\r\n\r\nEQUAL\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 00:10:47","modified":"2003-09-09 00:10:47","fileurl":""},{"id":81404,"heading":"you cant expect him to do any research","article":"He's a zionist.\r\nhe's a racist.\r\n\r\nhe says Israel is cool and the world dosent hate them and says the UN dosent count.\r\n\r\nBut fully supports the UN mandates against Iraq.\r\nThe world never said they hated Iraq.\r\nSO why would fresca support an invasion\r\nof Iraq (when Iraq never attacked USA)\r\n\r\nand not support an invasion of the only country in the middle east with\r\nNukes\r\nBiological weapons\r\nChemical weapons\r\n\r\nand routinly bombs civillian targets and intiminates the native peoples\r\nwhy.\r\n\r\nBecause Fresca is a filthy racist zionist pig.","author":"lobo","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 00:18:00","modified":"2003-09-09 00:18:00","fileurl":""},{"id":81406,"heading":"fresca never read history","article":"This "fresa" claims that Egypt started the 1967 war?\r\nWRONG\r\nRead any history book (thats not zionist influenced)\r\nor go to the bbc website.\r\n\r\n"Egypt's powerful air force was put out of action on the first day of fighting when Israeli jets bombed it on the ground in a pre-emptive strike. "\r\n\r\nI believe it says the word PREEMPTIVE.\r\nTHAT MEANS ISRAEL STRUCK TARGETS IN EGYPT FIRST!!!!","author":"joon yee","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 00:24:04","modified":"2003-09-09 00:24:04","fileurl":""},{"id":81408,"heading":"Agreed","article":"The only reason israel's racism isn't front page is because israel & america threw a tantrum and walked out, then sept 11'th happened.\r\n\r\nBut history has a habit of repeating it'self and I think this will be brought up again - not by america or israel (of course) but by the world community just as they tried to in 2001.\r\n\r\nFresca only gets by with this blindness to the facts because he's (the name sounds female - my mistake) been able to sweep the facts aside while continuing the games of name calling taunting, etc.. Each time a fact comes up we need to pin his ass to the ground on it and never allow it to be forgotten (intentionally "forgetting" the facts when they are pointed out is LYING - once it's been proven all he does is lie, he'll be reduced to occasional quips under different handles which can be ignored. Maintaining a consistant handle while getting away with the lies has enabled him to get by with egging people on. Kobe is already out of the picture (as kobe at least) since they now know how dangerously close we are to laying them out completely to the light of day and with detailed information like addresses they are in real danger of ending up on the FBI's terrorist list (just as they always wanted to use on other people - the tables have completely turned on them !)\r\n\r\nI happen to be a dirt digger. Kobe didn't know that...\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 00:32:29","modified":"2003-09-09 00:32:29","fileurl":""},{"id":81427,"heading":"Lol","article":"This is great!\r\n\r\nI've definetely stirred up the idiot pot this time.\r\n\r\nFirst, we have hexer posting the results of some conference in which "all of the world's" nations (his claim...certainly not the article's) called Israel "the most racist country in the world". That some countries feel this way, I've no doubt. That this means anything is nonsense. \r\n\r\nThen we have some other utter moron claiming that Israel started the 6 day war. Isarel definetely fired first, as any capable defense force would do when nations on three borders are about to attack all at once. Egypt, Syria and Jordan by any intelligent account instigated this war when they ammased their combined troops on the borders. Even the arab world doesn't even try to spin this in the inane direction that you fools do. They are humiliated of course but they've never claimed that Israel started the war. Keep the ridiculous laughs coming.\r\n\r\nBy the way, I will continue to bring up the facts that hex and his caplock buddies seem to want o ignore.\r\n\r\nFACT ONE THAT IS ALWAYS IGNORED) Egypt, Syria and Jordan invade and take over all of the land that was to be a palestinian state in 1948. Mind you, three arab states took these lands. Not Israel.\r\n\r\n\r\nFACT TWO WHICH IS ALWAYS IGNORED) These same three countries attempt to simultaneously attck and annihilate Isarel in 1967. Israel defensively strikes and proceeds to trounce the combined forces of all three invading armies, claiming the territories of Gaza, Golen Heights and West Bank. These lands have now SOMEHOW, AS IF BY MAGIC become "occupied "palestinian" territories". Nonsense. \r\n\r\nI will keep reminding you dodgers of these facts while you keep crying "racist" and Zionist (as if that's an insult..especially since I'm not even Jewish).\r\n\r\nBy the way, I'm very amazed that the prince of the newswire, hexer, didn't respond to any of my peace plan points with anything but insults. I thought that sort of posting was what he was self-appointed to "house-clean".\r\n\r\nFeel free to try to, for once, answer with some facts for once.\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 01:19:09","modified":"2003-09-09 01:19:09","fileurl":""},{"id":81432,"heading":"By the way","article":""Kobe is already out of the picture (as kobe at least) since they now know how dangerously close we are to laying them out completely to the light of day and with detailed information like addresses they are in real danger of ending up on the FBI's terrorist list "\r\n\r\nAre you really this delusional? \r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 01:27:01","modified":"2003-09-09 01:27:01","fileurl":""},{"id":81446,"heading":"he just completed the circle again","article":"> the most racist country in the world" \/ That this means anything is nonsense. \r\n\r\n\r\nThere we are - circular arguement again.\r\n\r\nI even post it - plain as day, the exact date and everything.\r\n\r\n*he even acknowledges it* ! "that this means anything"\r\nbut then once again, with the brush of dismissal the FACTS are swept aside while we're treated to ONLY more name calling..\r\n\r\nCircle complete...\r\n\r\n\r\nThen as if to claim credit to the facts he just tried to dispose of we get this gem;\r\n\r\n> I will continue to bring up the facts\r\n\r\n\r\nStellar !\r\n\r\n\r\nYour "peace plan" as stated has slight merit - I'm not required to kiss up to an occassional "olive leaf" you might toss from time to time, let the regular readers decide how sincere the claim is, it only seems rhetorical to me...\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Are you really this delusional?\r\n\r\nLet me put it this way "fresca", I have connections at the IRS.\r\n\r\nCare to dance ?\r\n\r\n ","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 01:54:03","modified":"2003-09-09 01:54:03","fileurl":""},{"id":81452,"heading":"There it is","article":""> Are you really this delusional? \r\n\r\nLet me put it this way "fresca", I have connections at the IRS. \r\n\r\nCare to dance ? \r\n"\r\n\r\nOh my.\r\n\r\nYou actually went there.\r\n\r\nYou are a complete and utter nut.\r\n\r\nSo, basically, everything you might post from here on out is merely the ramblings of a crazy person.\r\n\r\nAlright. I'll consider it as such.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 02:08:51","modified":"2003-09-09 02:08:51","fileurl":""},{"id":81454,"heading":"And again","article":"For you other dodgers out there.\r\n\r\nBy the way, I will continue to bring up the facts that hex and his caplock buddies seem to want o ignore. \r\n\r\nFACT ONE THAT IS ALWAYS IGNORED) Egypt, Syria and Jordan invade and take over all of the land that was to be a palestinian state in 1948. Mind you, three arab states took these lands. Not Israel. \r\n\r\n\r\nFACT TWO WHICH IS ALWAYS IGNORED) These same three countries attempt to simultaneously attck and annihilate Isarel in 1967. Israel defensively strikes and proceeds to trounce the combined forces of all three invading armies, claiming the territories of Gaza, Golen Heights and West Bank. These lands have now SOMEHOW, AS IF BY MAGIC become "occupied "palestinian" territories". Nonsense. \r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 02:11:10","modified":"2003-09-09 02:11:10","fileurl":""},{"id":81455,"heading":"of course not - how would I know any of these things","article":"Whatever you say "fresca"\r\n\r\nSo just because the IRS offices in Newark, NJ are on restricted floors in the federal building where the public doesn't have direct access (only special express elevators) and I know all the security and logistical details. Looking out the sealed windows you could actually see my house on Broadway.. Doesn't mean a thing and I'm crazy.\r\n\r\nOkay (you do realize I'm refering to compnla as the business in question)\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 02:17:26","modified":"2003-09-09 02:17:26","fileurl":""},{"id":81457,"heading":"Diverting from the thread...","article":"What has compnla got to do with this??????????????\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 02:24:15","modified":"2003-09-09 02:24:15","fileurl":""},{"id":81487,"heading":"ermm","article":"" All the world's countries (other than america and israel) plus 3,000 NGO's condems israel as a racist apartheid state "\r\n\r\nSomehow I doubt that is strictly true. since it seems out of character for some states.\r\nThere is also a lot of pot calling the kettle black going on there.The fact that they focus on israel and ignore sudan or indonesia etc shows they collectively are not focusing on bad offenders they are just trying to score points. \r\n\r\n"NGOs) attached to the conference adopted a resolution calling Israel a "racist apartheid state ..."\r\n\r\nNGO's are no elected. their collective opinion is no better than asking the collective opinion is just a bad sampling of the population as opposed to the governments which is a somewhat better (but only for democracies) sampling.\r\n\r\nSpeaking of which what does some despot in africa or whatever know about what should happen in israel?\r\n\r\n"I see so we give Palestine 9,000,000,000 dollars a year in military support, Palestinians are the one's with US supplied nukes, tanks, machine guns, they are the one's building the wall in "israel" - right through "israel". They have killed some 3,200 israelis, while israel killed 800 of them...\r\nEQUAL"\r\n\r\nOK imagine a world where there is no outside support for the palistinians and no outside support for the israelis.. starting now.. or whenever.. who wins? It isnt the palistinians. \r\nAnyway they do get lots of support ... \r\n the palistinians "resistors" just ask for a different type of support\r\ndo you think these terrorists are all palistinians? what would they do with 9 billion anyway? buy an old russian nuke?nope they are hapy with a billion odd jihadists.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 08:28:23","modified":"2003-09-09 08:28:23","fileurl":""},{"id":81499,"heading":"nice tap-dancing but it's getting old","article":"> Somehow I doubt that is strictly true. since it seems out of character for some states. There is also a lot of pot calling the kettle black going on there.The fact that they focus on israel and ignore sudan or indonesia etc shows they collectively are not focusing on bad offenders they are just trying to score points. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nThis is classic reductionism, looking for any crack - any imperfection (the idea being if it's not "completely" (absolutely) true then it's not really true at all. The everything's black & white (extremist) mindset. Then the finger-pointing "let's shift the focus elsewhere" - but they're just as bad (without of course ever actualy acknowleding it in the first place - see tiny crack)\r\n\r\nThe "score points - they win" mindset is everything's just a game, which both trivalizes and black & whites (extremism) the issue. Games are more important of course than people's lives - well all lives except israel's.. (the double-standard)\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: 3,000 NGO's\r\n\r\n> their collective opinion is no better than asking the collective opinion is just a bad sampling of the population\r\n\r\n\r\nMore trivializing, now the NGO's don't matter either because - you say they don't. And of course they must be marginalized as well because - they condemned israel. If this was about Palestine or some other Islamic country (bringing up some UN resolutions against them - there are some) it would be all fine & dandy - as anything is in this "game". But simply because it's directed at israel it must *automaticly be dismissed* - just as ALL judgement critical of israel always is...\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> OK imagine a world where there is no outside support for the palistinians and no outside support for the israelis.. starting now.. or whenever.. who wins? It isnt the palistinians. \r\n\r\n\r\nThis again seeks to minimize the actual HUGE DIFFERENCE that's plainly spelled out (all the billions in aid israel get's from our tax dollars - most of which props up israel's otherwise failing ecomomy - we actually PAY to keep israel afloat BESIDES providing the tanks, nukes, missles, bulldozers, etc they use to oppress the Palestinians. But let's just *dismiss all these concrete facts* with this weasel's combination of reducing, framing using extremes (your extremes of course) trivializing (it's just a game, neither the UN nor the NGO's nor anyone else matters), shifting the blame elsewhere (finger pointing)\r\n\r\nEnd off with a bit of rhetorical ad-hoc.\r\n\r\n\r\nThese are the usual shell games...\r\n\r\nThe ugly truth melts away under a blizzard of feel-good sound bites while the genoside continues...\r\n\r\n ","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 10:46:23","modified":"2003-09-09 10:46:23","fileurl":""},{"id":81509,"heading":"hex the fixer","article":"Now, I don't want to get you all upset since you're so well connected with the IRS but here's your lesson for this morning.\r\n\r\nYour desperate attempt at trying to paint Israel as a racist state is just about, fully shot through with holes. To whatever degree your story is even non-fabricated it's still laughable.\r\n\r\nAre there racists in Israel? You bet. Is Israel a racist state? Of course not. The term itself doesn't even mean anything.\r\n\r\nThe fact that Israel is forced to defend itself against terrorist groups who all share the same race is hardly the definition of racism. As we speak, Israel is still the only middle eastern country where an arab can vote in a real election and hold office, among other rights not available in arab countries. (You all hate this waved in your face).\r\n\r\nThe fact of the matter is this. Once people, who happen to be arab islamists, stop exploding on busses killing masses of civilians then israel won't have to be such a "racist" state. If defending yourself against and trying to eradicate this sort of barbarism is racism, then I would hope more societies would become racist, and quickly.\r\n\r\nAs far as aid to Israel goes, why on earth shouldn't we give them aid? They're the only democracy in that entire part of the world. And beyond the fact that we already give LOTS of financial aid to "palestine" why would we ever choose to support a group of people who breed such terror and glorify it. \r\n\r\nSome day, Israel will make a gift of land to these Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians who now travel under the "palestinian" moniker. Until then Israel should, finally, take off the gloves.\r\n\r\nOk, another post answering all of you points.\r\n\r\n\r\nI notice, however that you have failed to answer a single point of discussion directed at you from any number of poster on this message board (a "newswire this ain't). \r\n\r\nWhat's wrong? Stumped already taxman.\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 11:17:02","modified":"2003-09-09 11:17:02","fileurl":""},{"id":81512,"heading":"you do know I make my own bugs - right ?","article":"> you have failed to answer a single point of discussion directed at you from any number of poster on this message board (a "newswire this ain't). \r\n\r\n\r\n...drawn into the games...\r\n\r\nNope - not gonna' work "fresca"\r\nAnd the reason why is because with you *there IS no discussion*, a discussion consists of issues raised, points made, proof shown, then we MOVE ON. But with you it's an endless circle of proof shown, then circle around ignoring the proof just shown (you've just completed two such circles on this point of the UN condemning israel as racist, I posted the data along with the date (Sept 4'th 2001) it's a matter of public record - END OF DEBATE..\r\n\r\nExcept with you there IS no end because you're not here to resolve, you're here to "distract and disrupt". So there IS no discussion. I intend to ignore you unless you keep posting fresh unwarranted attacks which in that case kobehq will pay a price of having more information revealed, more exposed. Time will tell whether this is a price you can afford to pay - no ?\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 11:30:27","modified":"2003-09-09 11:30:27","fileurl":""},{"id":81526,"heading":"smooch-smooch...kiss kiss....","article":"I want to get you all in the picture....there.\r\nthis is really hilarious. oh, don't mind me, I was just looking. It's all old stuff anyway so don't be forlorn. Please continue on.\r\n","author":"Hex & Fresca's new brides maids","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 12:27:09","modified":"2003-09-09 12:27:09","fileurl":""},{"id":81542,"heading":"eye4aneye","article":""I intend to ignore you unless you keep posting fresh unwarranted attacks which in that case kobehq will pay a price of having more information revealed, more exposed."\r\n\r\nkobehq paying for fresca. OK, two can play that game. Remember Hex, Warren V. Palin is out there prepared to pay for your sins.","author":"aye!","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 12:55:00","modified":"2003-09-09 12:55:00","fileurl":""},{"id":81543,"heading":"suck-suck-slurp swallow","article":"someone always pays for something. \r\nnow wipe off your face.","author":"Knob","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:02:12","modified":"2003-09-09 13:02:12","fileurl":""},{"id":81544,"heading":"Say Fresca","article":" Why don't you tell us what you think about the terrorist bombing of the Kind David Hotel, the assassination of Bernadotte, the cowardly and unprovoked invasion of Egypt by Israel in 1956 when Egypt was already under attack by British and French imperialist troops, or the slaughter of 20,000 Arabs during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. I guess the latter two can be justified by the need to keep the uncivilized wogs under the control of their betters, eh? Nothing racist about that, of course.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:02:48","modified":"2003-09-09 13:02:48","fileurl":""},{"id":81546,"heading":"now wipe off your face.","article":"Yeah Hex!! Start wiping!!","author":"wet-one","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:09:46","modified":"2003-09-09 13:09:46","fileurl":""},{"id":81547,"heading":"tell the old man to be more careful what he allows","article":"Ah so this Diogenes is Warren.. (I had to do a search to read about it)\r\n\r\nWell considering I have nothing to do with it (being a completely new person kobe knows nothing at all about, having kept it that way for years and all)\r\n\r\nIf you wish to torment some random person that's your choice kobe however it won't effect me in the slightest, this of course doesn't change the fact that compnla hosted with blessing kobehq and is the only business connected to it and so was flagged. It's already been done - no use in crying about now...\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:11:13","modified":"2003-09-09 13:11:13","fileurl":""},{"id":81550,"heading":"Hex","article":"You wish to torment some random person (kobehq) based upon you disagreements with another (fresca).\r\n\r\nSee your own words:\r\n\r\n"I intend to ignore you (fresca) unless you keep posting fresh unwarranted attacks which in that case kobehq will pay a price of having more information revealed, more exposed." \r\n\r\nSo, because of fresca, you want to "punish" kobehq, two completely unrelated people. So, if you intend on this line, just be aware it goes both ways.\r\n\r\n","author":"aye!","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:19:37","modified":"2003-09-09 13:19:37","fileurl":""},{"id":81551,"heading":"Ah so this Diogenes is Warren","article":"Ah so this Diogenes is Warren\r\nI had to do a search on it\r\namazing.\r\nEVERYONE meet our new trumpet and string section.\r\nplaying now for your entertainment and dread.\r\nIf music is the food of love, then play on....","author":"Ah so this Diogenes is Warren","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:21:16","modified":"2003-09-09 13:21:16","fileurl":""},{"id":81559,"heading":"seeing the world through the eyes of a liar","article":"> just be aware it goes both ways. \r\n\r\n\r\nIn my case since there's 6 anon proxies between me and even this IMC tell me, which "other way" can it go ?\r\n\r\nYou made a fatal mistake - as a business you can get by with harrassing "anarchists", then when the harrassment became stalking kobehq had to at least try to go underground (hide that it was hosted by or connected to a business) what you never imagined in your wildest dreams was that a totally different new person that nobody knows (me) would see your little witch-hunt (against DeVoy) and decide to *go after you* - from an even more (far more I might brag) anonymous position that you pretend to be.\r\n\r\nOn top of this I just happen to have certain contacts who were more than glad to add compnla into the audit file, but the really scary part is when I send some devices to "friends" in LA who then arrange to have them planted - not that you can't find them - find only, since you can't *detect* them despite what an "expert" might claim (you should realize they are more used car salesmen then "security experts" - as you they are only prepared to deal with off-the-shelf equipment, NOT someone who has been making bugs since he was a kid) These signals are recieved locally then tunneled back to me (Zebedee) as files I encrypt (Blowfish) for safe keeping.\r\n\r\nNow the only question is where are they, can they be analysed to trace back. As a scientist I can answer that question for you, but do waste your time trying anyway - that will give you something to do at least..\r\n\r\nI make really sensitive mic's too (I've been specializing in this for a few years now, using things like wristwatchs as the audio source - getting deafening volume from this while working on the noise level). How much can I hear, how much access do I have ?\r\n\r\nCan you get the shop swept for free ? (might as well try - you won't find anything anyway, at least by sweeping)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:44:55","modified":"2003-09-09 13:44:55","fileurl":""},{"id":81562,"heading":"Hex","article":"First of all. I'm not kobe. I can't stand either DeVoy or kobe. I wish they both would go away.\r\n\r\n"In my case since there's 6 anon proxies between me and even this IMC tell me, which "other way" can it go?"\r\n\r\nYou decided to take out on kobehq over something that fresca said. Why would you do that? It's like someone else taking out something you said on warren.\r\n\r\nFigure it out.","author":"aye!","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 13:55:03","modified":"2003-09-09 13:55:03","fileurl":""},{"id":81563,"heading":"Palestinains Murder John Lennon","article":"","author":"Peter Ring","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2003-09-09 13:55:34","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:25","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/lennonc_hr.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/lennonc_hr.jpg"}},{"id":81568,"heading":"Palestinian Youth Says "We'll Finish the Job for Hitler"","article":"Arabs endorsed Hitler's actions in the 1940s and the constant refrain among the Palestinians and other Arabs has been that "Hitler Was Right!"\r\n\r\n","author":"Peter Ring","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2003-09-09 14:06:02","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:25","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/hitler-zaid.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/hitler-zaid.jpg"}},{"id":81569,"heading":"Palestinian Youth Says "We'll Finish the Job for Hitler"","article":"Arabs endorsed Hitler's actions in the 1940s and the constant refrain among the Palestinians and other Arabs has been that "Hitler Was Right!"\r\n\r\n","author":"Peter Ring","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"image\/jpeg","created":"2003-09-09 14:08:11","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:25","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/hitler-zaid.jpgjq9gio.jpg","image":{"original":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/hitler-zaid.jpgjq9gio.jpg"}},{"id":81572,"heading":"how could you ? ::sob::","article":"> You decided to take out on kobehq over something that fresca said. Why would you do that? \r\n\r\n\r\nActually I decided to take out compnla over kobehq and kobehq over "fresca"\r\n\r\nHowever I don't need a reason - because I'm a "Mad Scientist" so the question will remain un-answered.\r\n\r\nThe same question applies to why "kobe" - a small group of bookworm right-wing nut assholes with nothing better to do, would decide to harrass and take out people like DeVoy (and not just him but IMC, the people to patronize them, etc - people like us) with all the sickening games and foul names and the whole nine yards - from *middle-aged men*.\r\n\r\nWell obviously these men need to be taught a lesson. Since compnla is the only point of access presented, compnla was the target. You made this the only choice yourself by operating out of the shop like that - nobody forced you'all to do it. The old man thought it was amusing, my how things change, now he's scared as hell and you still don't know when to pack it in and give it a rest. You thought you'd always have an easy scapegoat in DeVoy but someone new has entered the picture - someone you know nothing about. The tables have turned - now *I'm* the anonymous threat and compnla is the known target.\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 14:13:54","modified":"2003-09-09 14:13:54","fileurl":""},{"id":81573,"heading":"Kurt Waldheim, SS Captain and UN Leader","article":"Kurt Waldheim was a Nazi SS captain during WW 2 . He was part of the Nazi regime that occupied Greece. He was responsible for murdering many Greek civilians in Nazi punitive actions.\r\n\r\nBecause of his known anti Jewish proclivities the Arab "states" at the UN backed him as Secretary General. Waldheim invited fellow Jew Hater Yasser Arafat to speak, and Waldheim was the one who made the "Zionism is Racism" pronouncement.\r\n\r\nWaldheim claimed that during World War 2 he was a "student," When the truth came out, US officials barred his future entry to the US and indicted him for WAR CRIMES.\r\n\r\nSo much for the UN. Run by ex-Nazis, French bootlickers, and etc.","author":"Peter Ring","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 14:18:19","modified":"2003-09-09 14:18:19","fileurl":""},{"id":81574,"heading":"pretty slikque format","article":"And the color!\r\nthis is teriffic. You can always tell quality.","author":"Art Critic","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 14:19:45","modified":"2003-09-09 14:19:45","fileurl":""},{"id":81608,"heading":"Kid with the deplorable poster","article":" Goes to show that Zionism has really done a good job in reducing anti-semitism, especially in the middle east, doesn't it?\r\n For some actual collaberation with Nazi types, we might consider Israel's warm relationship with the old apartheid regime in South Africa; the fact that the various apartheid governments included people who had been Nazi sympathizers during World War II didn't seem to bother people like Begin and Shamir a bit.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 15:49:05","modified":"2003-09-09 15:49:05","fileurl":""},{"id":81615,"heading":"ml","article":"For some actual collaberation with Nazi types, one need look no further than the arabs endorsement of Hitler's actions in the 1940s. ","author":"bara","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 16:01:37","modified":"2003-09-09 16:01:37","fileurl":""},{"id":81622,"heading":"The New X","article":"before 1948\r\npalestinians(whatever the fuck they were) lived in palestine (whatever the fuck it was called).\r\n\r\nafter 1948\r\nthey were kicked out of their land in some war that should never have taken place.\r\n\r\nthe war took place only because it said in SOME book that that land in fact belonged to those who kicked the palestinians out. \r\n\r\nforgive me for being bitter but fuckin hell. just because it says in some random book that you should do this or that or that youare god's chosen ppl or u cant fuck a guy in the ass etc doesnt mean its true. ppl cant fuckin keep their bullshit to themselves man.\r\n\r\nthe palestinian claim to the land is that they were living there for hundreds of years.\r\n\r\nthe israeli claim is that it said in some book that that land is theirs.\r\n\r\ncan nebody else smell the bullshit?\r\n\r\nif i create a religion called assholism and write in the book of asshole that north america belongs to the assholian ppl would americans be happy to let my ppl just walk in and kick them out?","author":"The New X","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 16:24:45","modified":"2003-09-09 16:24:45","fileurl":""},{"id":81626,"heading":"Canaan","article":"The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 16:34:06","modified":"2003-09-09 16:34:06","fileurl":""},{"id":81628,"heading":"Canaan","article":"\r\n\r\nThe land belongs to whoever can conquer and devour it.","author":"Hungry Alien (don't scream)","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 16:42:38","modified":"2003-09-09 16:42:38","fileurl":""},{"id":81633,"heading":"Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots","article":"The Israelis and the Palestinains should take off the gloves and just go at it, winner take all.","author":"I vs. P","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 17:08:56","modified":"2003-09-09 17:08:56","fileurl":""},{"id":81634,"heading":"axiom","article":""The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it."\r\n\r\nOkay, you genius. Post your home address. I will come to your land and conquer it. Then, you will sign your property over to me.\r\n\r\nIDIOT.\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 17:10:56","modified":"2003-09-09 17:10:56","fileurl":""},{"id":81637,"heading":"bara, you forgot","article":"the friendly relations Shamir and his group of thugs had with Adolf Eichman. ","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 17:15:03","modified":"2003-09-09 17:15:03","fileurl":""},{"id":81648,"heading":"faker","article":"> Post your home address. I will come to your land and conquer it. Then, you will sign your property over to me.\r\n\r\nTo force me to sign over property would be to do so under duress, and it not a binding agreement. Should you force me to leave my house, while you are in it you can do as you wish. But, when the police come and remove you, it won't be yours to do as you please anymore. You'll be behind bars. Go fot it!!\r\n\r\nLand obtain through war is not the same as domestic law.\r\n\r\nIDIOT.","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 17:35:01","modified":"2003-09-09 17:35:01","fileurl":""},{"id":81664,"heading":"Axiom, do you have any disagreements","article":"with Adolf Hitler, except over the question of which ethnic group is the master race?","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 18:28:03","modified":"2003-09-09 18:28:03","fileurl":""},{"id":81667,"heading":"To Axiom","article":"ok thank you Axiom, whether or not land belongs to those who conquer it is another question.\r\n\r\ni just wanted everyone, as you have, to acknowledge the fact that the Israelis came in, conquered palestine and exiled the palestinians.\r\n\r\nmy argument is that if that happened to me and my people, i would be bloody pissed off.\r\n\r\n","author":"The New X","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 18:36:38","modified":"2003-09-09 18:36:38","fileurl":""},{"id":81671,"heading":"ml & x","article":"ML, ur a walking, breathing dumbfuck, and you've proven it yet again.\r\n\r\n"The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it."\r\n\r\n\r\nThat statement in no way endorses Hitler or anyone else. It's just a statement of fact. Quit reading shit into what others say. Can you do that little?\r\n\r\n"my argument is that if that happened to me and my people, i would be bloody pissed off."\r\n\r\nAs well you should. So, let Israel and the Palestinains fight it out, winner take all.\r\n","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 18:49:53","modified":"2003-09-09 18:49:53","fileurl":""},{"id":81694,"heading":"learn","article":"syria egypt and jordan stole land from the palestinians?\r\nare you crazy freaca\r\nhave you ever bothered to read any history about the construction of Israel?\r\n\r\nWhat about Arab Muslims and the British empire who fought the Ottoman empire? remember freaca?\r\nafter world war 1?\r\n(no jews fighting for israel then)\r\nlol\r\n\r\nFor someone that hates illegal immigrants so much, i'm sure freaca didnt mind when 300000 jewsmoved to palestine in the early 1900's.\r\n\r\nEver hear of the zionist Lord Rothschild and the Balfour declaration?\r\nWhat about the Sykes-Picot agreement? \r\n\r\ndidnt think so........;-}\r\n\r\nSO HERE WE HAD A BRITHISH CONTROLLED MIDDLE EAST ESSENTIALLY.\r\nright freaca?\r\n\r\nWell brainiac ....what about the 1920s--30's\r\nwhat then the ignorant freaca asks.....\r\n\r\n The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to British Mandate Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community. \r\n\r\nIn 1922, a British census showed the Jewish population had risen to about 11% of Palestine's 750,000 inhabitants. More than 300,000 immigrants arrived in the next 15 years.\r\n\r\nIn 1936, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force.\r\nNOT ZIONIST TERRORISM (FREAKA SAY IT AINT SO)\r\nIn July 1937, Britain, in a Royal Commission headed by former Secretary of State for India, Lord Peel, recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state (about a third of British Mandate Palestine, including Galilee and the coastal plain) and an Arab one. \r\n\r\nPalestinian and Arab representatives rejected this and demanded an end to immigration and the safeguarding of a single unified state with protection of minority rights, since the zionists we not adhering the the Balfour Declaration.\r\nNEXT you had the British empire helping the zionist terrorists (due to influence from lord rothschild).\r\n\r\n1947----\r\n Britain, which had ruled Palestine since 1920, handed over responsibility for solving the Zionist-Arab problem to the UN in 1947. \r\nDID YOU HEAR THAT FREACA THE U.N. NOW HAD CONTROL.\r\nThe UN set up a special committee which recommended splitting the territory into separate Jewish and Palestinian states. Palestinian representatives, known as the Arab Higher Committee, rejected the proposal; their counterparts in the Jewish Agency accepted it. \r\n\r\nThe partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem. On 29 November 1947, 33 countries of the UN General Assembly voted for partition, 13 voted against and 10 abstained. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented. \r\nIT SEEMS THAT BACK THEN WHEN IT WAS "PALESTINE" THE NATIVES WANTED TO GET RID OF THE ILLEGAL ZIONIST IMMIGRATION.\r\n\r\nBoth Arab and Jewish sides prepared for the coming confrontation by mobilising forces. The first "clearing" operations were conducted against Palestinian villages by Jewish forces in December. \r\nMORE ZIONIST TERRORISM....\r\n\r\n1948\r\nTHIS IS WHERE FREACA GET ALL CONFUSED. \r\n\r\nThe State of Israel, the first Jewish state for nearly 2,000 years, was proclaimed at 1600 on 14 May 1948 in Tel Aviv. The declaration came into effect the following day as the last British troops withdrew. Palestinians remember 15 May as "al-Nakba", or the Catastrophe. \r\n\r\nThe year had begun with Jewish and Arab armies each staging attacks on territory held by the other side. Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant (TERRORIST) groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering(STEALING) substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one. \r\n\r\nIrgun and Lehi terrorist groups MASSACRED scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank. \r\n\r\nThe Jewish armies were victorious in the Negev, Galilee, West Jerusalem and much of the coastal plain. \r\n\r\nThe day after the state of Israel was declared five Arab armies from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq immediately invaded Israel but were repulsed, and the Israeli army crushed pockets of resistance. Armistices established Israel's borders on the frontier of most of the earlier British Mandate Palestine. \r\n\r\nEgypt kept the Gaza Strip while Jordan annexed the area around East Jerusalem and the land now known as the West Bank. These territories made up about 25% of the total area of British Mandate Palestine. \r\n\r\nTHESE AREAS WERE TAKEN TO ENSURE THAT THE TERRORIST ZIONIST FORCES COULD NOT STEAL MORE LAND FROM THE NATIVE INHABITANTS.\r\n\r\nPALESTINIANS CONTINUED TO LIVE THERE WHILE ISRAEL CONTINUED TO STRIKE TERROR\r\nCONTINUED TO SPREAD "SETTLEMENTS" IN TO FORIEGN COUNTRIES WITH THE IDEA TO USURP THEM\r\nCONTINUED HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AGAINST PALESTINIANS.\r\nCONTINUED TO MILITARIZE.\r\nCONTINUED TO BE REPRIMANDED BY THE UN FOR SECURITY COUNCIL VIOLATIONS.\r\n\r\nya see freaka, everyone here feel sorry for you because you are so ignorant to the facts.\r\nBut one day you will admit that you are nothing\r\nbut a shallow, racist\r\nzionist pig.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"history","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 20:14:27","modified":"2003-09-09 20:14:27","fileurl":""},{"id":81696,"heading":"unfair comparison with Hitler","article":" Oh, you are so right, axiom - how could anyone see any similarity between Hitler's views and your statement that land belongs to whomever can conquer it? We all know that Hitler would disavow such thinking. I must have been hallucinating because of poisonus fumes from some Iraqi wmd that landed in southern California.","author":"Meyer London","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 20:22:14","modified":"2003-09-09 20:22:14","fileurl":""},{"id":81702,"heading":"thank you","article":"Thanks "history" you've proved my point yet again.\r\n\r\n
"The day after the state of Israel was declared five Arab armies from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq immediately invaded Israel but were repulsed, and the Israeli army crushed pockets of resistance. Armistices established Israel's borders on the frontier of most of the earlier British Mandate Palestine. \r\n\r\nEgypt kept the Gaza Strip while Jordan annexed the area around East Jerusalem and the land now known as the West Bank. These territories made up about 25% of the total area of British Mandate Palestine. \r\n"<\/b>\r\n\r\n
Exactly. So tell me agin how it is that these territories which were specifically to be a new (and first) "palestinian" state suddenly being under the control of Egypt Syria and Jordan is not a case of land theft.\r\n\r\n
Your ability to deny and outright lie about history as even you quote it, is amazing.\r\n\r\n
It's also interesting that the fact that the original Zionist settlers BOUGHT the land they settled, still caused"unrest in the arab communities". Perhaps your arab heroes aren't so "peaceful" after all.\r\n\r\n
I also find it interesting that you fail to mention that teh would-be "palestinians" were offered pretty much everything they now claim to deserve in 1948 as their own state but turned it down. Purely because their own greed and racism precluded them from sharing land with Jews.\r\n\r\n
Face it, you are a garden variety racist who can read history but can't seem to understand it.\r\n\r\n
I love having the power to have you trip all over yourself. \r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 21:01:53","modified":"2003-09-09 21:01:53","fileurl":""},{"id":81718,"heading":"new x","article":""the war took place only because it said in SOME book that that land in fact belonged to those who kicked the palestinians out. "\r\n\r\nJust so you know, as I'm sure you do, the war you speak of was started by Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Lebanon on the day Israel was founded. These nations were the ONLY people to kick anyone out of their homes.\r\n\r\nBut, as a student of history, I'm sure you know that.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 22:26:25","modified":"2003-09-09 22:26:25","fileurl":""},{"id":81719,"heading":"For what it's worth","article":""You decided to take out on kobehq over something that fresca said. Why would you do that? "\r\n\r\nActually, heckser was going at it with Kobe long before I got into the mix. I thought it was all some sort of tech pissing contest, but then hex brought me into it out of the blue. Who knows.\r\n\r\nThe guys tight with the IRS and thinks that EVERYONE who disagrees with him is KOBE.\r\n\r\nEyes rolling.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 22:29:43","modified":"2003-09-09 22:29:43","fileurl":""},{"id":81727,"heading":"ok meyer","article":""Why don't you tell us what you think about the terrorist bombing of the Kind David Hotel, the assassination of Bernadotte, the cowardly and unprovoked invasion of Egypt by Israel in 1956 when Egypt was already under attack by British and French imperialist troops, or the slaughter of 20,000 Arabs during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. I guess the latter two can be justified by the need to keep the uncivilized wogs under the control of their betters, eh? Nothing racist about that, of course.\r\n\r\nNot one to duck, like you seem to be since you NEVER answer any points (they're all still there for you...scroll up) here goes.\r\n\r\n\r\nThe King David Hotel was requisitioned by the British Military and was completely occupied by military personel. Therefore it was no less a military target as a tank would be. Furthermore, the Israeli's gave WARNING to the British before the attack. Terrorism it ain't.\r\n\r\nThe Bernedett assasination was definetly stupid strategically and terroristic. As much as the internationalization of Jerusalem was an idea to be avoided, the assasination was wrong I believe.\r\n\r\nThe war for the Suez was precipitated EXCLUSIVELY by Egypt when they nationalized and closed the canal immediately after the exit of British troops. Cut off a major trade route to a neighboring country that you've already attacked once and this is what you get.\r\n\r\nThe 20, 000 "palestinians" slaughtered in Lebanon by LEBANESE was awful, but the fact that Israeli troops were in country does not make them culpable. However, I would have hoped that Sharon would have been forgotten and "retired" indefinetly after standing by and not doing anything to stop it.\r\n\r\nThe point is, is that I know Israel is capable and guilty of awful acts. All states are. You can not or will not say the same of your terrorist heroes.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 22:58:52","modified":"2003-09-09 22:58:52","fileurl":""},{"id":81728,"heading":"your addiction drove you down the wrong path","article":"file encoded in MP3 at 03-09-97 (one of my older ones)\r\n\r\n> tight with the IRS \r\n\r\nWell - tight enough I guess...\r\n\r\nSee normally you have to have a full name and the SS number, but with a business all you need is the businesses address. Really it's your (whoops - I mean "kobe") fault for operating out of a business in the first place. Bad idea, a business is open to the public at a known location.\r\n\r\nThe games you've been playing (illegal harrassment, "turning people in" then bragging about it) - BAD MOVE, this opens the door for likewise treatment - to a business no less !\r\n\r\nSo you had DeVoy pinned down and thought you had the upper hand in tech and anon - and so maybe you did - WITH HIM.\r\n\r\nYou were blinded by your own hate - to blind to see *other people don't agree with you* and *you don't alone possess the golden key to the crapper of knowledge*.\r\n\r\nAll that had to happen was *someone smarter than you* becomes pissed off about the way you've treated DeVoy and IMC partons, then your whole little game started unraveling...\r\n\r\nReally I thought the game you were playing with DeVoy would fizzle out but *you've become addicted to being abusive* and are a constant source of irritation, distraction, disruption. As an IMC patron this *personally offends me* and so the rest is history...\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"audio\/mpeg","created":"2003-09-09 23:04:35","modified":"2005-08-15 01:40:26","fileurl":"\/usr\/local\/www-domains\/la.indymedia.org\/public\/uploads\/2003\/09\/whoiam.mp3"},{"id":81729,"heading":"hex","article":"you're a delusional nutbag.\r\n\r\nDo what you must.","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 23:27:19","modified":"2003-09-09 23:27:19","fileurl":""},{"id":81734,"heading":"wellll","article":"> you're a delusional nutbag\r\n\r\nI have a nutbag..\r\n\r\nDo you "fresca" ?\r\n\r\nHave you checked it lately ?\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 23:35:53","modified":"2003-09-09 23:35:53","fileurl":""},{"id":81741,"heading":"christ","article":"What am I doing?\r\n\r\nI'm arguing with an idiot ninth grader.\r\n\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-09 23:59:27","modified":"2003-09-09 23:59:27","fileurl":""},{"id":81746,"heading":"ml","article":""Oh, you are so right, axiom - how could anyone see any similarity between Hitler's views and your statement that land belongs to whomever can conquer it?"\r\n\r\nOf course I'm right. That's not even up for debate.\r\n\r\nYou know Meyer, it a good thing Al Gore didn't invent the internet in the 1920's, because without Nazi Germany, people like you would have no one to make reference to when discussing history.\r\n\r\nThe Greeks, the Romans, The Medo-Persians, the Egyptians, all throughout history these people understood that the land belonged to whoever could conquer and defend it. All these millions upon millions of people who lived centuries before you were even alive understood this simple concept that you *still* cannot comprehend. How embarrasing you are. Are you able to even dress yourself?\r\n\r\nNow Meyer, can you give me an example of when the land did not belong to whoever could conquer and defend it?","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 00:26:44","modified":"2003-09-10 00:26:44","fileurl":""},{"id":81747,"heading":"^Conehead the barbarian","article":"1.)Old Evil and the sickness that grows it...\r\n2.)\u201ccan you give me an example of when the land did not belong to whoever could conquer and defend it?\u201d\r\n3.)This is fine for an animal territorial drive but sad for human thought.\r\n4.)Maybe you should consider killing yourself for the gene pool.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 00:44:17","modified":"2013-11-11 00:25:39","fileurl":""},{"id":81748,"heading":"Sheepdog","article":"Kindly fuck off and die.\r\n\r\nThe world goes in cycles. There are times in history when war was gloried, there\r\nare times in history when it is not. You are not a product of independent thought.\r\nYou are simply a reflection of the cycle you live in. You are a pawn in the hands of the time\r\nin which you live.\r\n\r\nBut, this truth remains firm throught time:\r\n\r\nThe land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.\r\n\r\nAnd long after you do us all a favor and kill yourself, it will still be true.","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 00:57:54","modified":"2003-09-10 00:57:54","fileurl":""},{"id":81751,"heading":"oh, my mistake","article":"you and all your like minded FRIENDS should kill themselves to reduce the mental\/moral defects like inability to experience empathy.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 01:14:46","modified":"2003-09-10 01:14:46","fileurl":""},{"id":81788,"heading":"Conquering the land","article":""The world goes in cycles. There are times in history when war was gloried, there are times in history when it is not. You are not a product of independent thought. You are simply a reflection of the cycle you live in. You are a pawn in the hands of the time in which you live.\r\n\r\nBut, this truth remains firm throught time:\r\n\r\nThe land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it."\r\n\r\nAt the risk of going off topic, axiom, this interpretation is fascinating and it is true that the world goes in cycles bith short and long; but your interpretation of land and war seems no longer practical for at least 3 reasons.\r\n\r\n1. The world's population is connected in ways it has never been before (or since before humans spread throughout Africa and left the continent.)\r\n2. With highly destructive weapons such as nuclear and biological, there is no such thing as winning a war.\r\n3. The earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth. And if we fuck it up enough trying to conquer it, we fuck ourselves too.\r\n\r\nSo it does not remain truth thoughout time that "the land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it."\r\n","author":"1984IShere","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 05:32:04","modified":"2003-09-10 05:32:04","fileurl":""},{"id":81797,"heading":"1984 and others","article":"I see how you could become easily confused by the 3 items you listed, believing they would cause things to be different. But they won't. Let's go through them.\r\n\r\n>1. The world's population is connected in ways it has never been before\r\n\r\nBecause the world is "smaller", because word travels faster does not impede upon what people occupy a piece of land. It changes the way war is fought, it does not change the results of whatever outcome may occur from a war. When all is said and done, the side which prevails is the new conqueror and will remain so as long as they can defend it.\r\n\r\n>2. With highly destructive weapons such as nuclear and biological, there is no such thing as winning a war. \r\n\r\nSure there is. You may have a war where it is a stand-off, but that has occured over and over in history also. Because some wars end up in stalemates doesn't mean all wars end up in stalemates.\r\n\r\n>3. The earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth. And if we fuck it up enough trying to conquer it, we fuck ourselves too.\r\n\r\nFirst of all, the earth is not my Mother. So, if you're wishing to make that point, I'm not even willing to discuss that silliness. Nations have be conquering nations for centuries and have not "fucked it up".\r\n\r\nSo yes, it is true still today that the land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it. There isn't a single country on the face of the earth that isn't a result of some people having gone in, conquered and tamed the land, and then defended it.\r\n\r\nIt seems you're trying to make the point that if we have a nuclear or biological holocaust that wipes out all human life on the planet that is a "unwinnable" war. The likelihood of all humans being killed is highly unlikely, so those remaining would be those who "conquered" the land. And actually it makes no sense. Nations have always gone to war for particular reasons. To go to war with the intention of blowing your enemy off the map knowing that they would blow you off the map in return would make no sense. What did you accomplish? Nations don't go to war in order to accomplish their own destruction.\r\n\r\nWhat pisses most of you off about the pharse "The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it" is that is doesn't jive with what you want to happen in Israel. You want the Israeli government to dissolve and all the land they obtained in 1948 to be returned to the Palestinians. Now, that's the big problem you have with it. Because just the statement alone, standing by itself, is undisputed. Any land that has ever been occupied since the beginning of time was land that was occupied by the people living there until someone else came along and took it from them in battle or they just walked away from it. That's just the way it is. So, let's just get the reason you don't like the phrase out in the open.\r\n\r\nBut, that doesn't change anything. Israel now occupies and defends the land. The only way they are going to give it up is if someone goes to war and takes it from them. So all of you yelling "Israel should give back the land they stole" are all wasting your breath. Not gonna happen. Land taken in war is not stolen land, it is conquered land. The USSR conquered what was known as the Eastern Bloc countries of Europe. They were able to defend it. I personally didn't like it. I thought it sucked. Nevertheless, until the USSR fell apart and the countries got their soverignity back, they were under the control of Moscow. There's no disputing that.\r\n\r\nI had this same discussion with nessie at SF-IMC over a year ago. Not my favorite person but he does know his history. He didn't like the phrase either. He thought it wasn't the right way for people to treat each other, which was never my argument. However, he did concede that, in fact, history has demonstrated that the land belongs to those who conquer and defend it. He wanted to change the way people thought about land, but he didn't deny that the phrase was accurate.","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 11:07:07","modified":"2003-09-10 11:07:07","fileurl":""},{"id":81816,"heading":"EU Gets a Clue","article":""European Union foreign ministers meeting in Italy on Saturday declared that the political wing of Hamas was a terrorist organization following the group's claim of responsibility for the bus bombing attack in Jerusalem in mid August which killed 22 Israelis," the Jerusalem Post reports.\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.jpost.com\/servlet\/Satellite?pagename=JPost\/A\/Article\/ShowFull&cid=1062832235819\r\n\r\nThe Boston Globe, however, isn't sure if a group that murders civilians on buses deserves to be called "terrorist." The paper's ombudsman, Christine Chinlund, explains its position:\r\n\r\n"To tag Hamas, for example, as a terrorist organization is to ignore its far more complex role in the Middle East drama. The word reflects not only a simplification, but a bias that runs counter to good journalism. To label any group in the Middle East as terrorist is to take sides, or at least appear to, and that is not acceptable. The same holds true in covering other far-flung conflicts. One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter; it's not for journalists to judge."\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.boston.com\/news\/globe\/editorial_opinion\/editorials\/articles\/2003\/09\/08\/who_should_wear_the_terrorist_label\/\r\n\r\nThe only "freedom" Hamas is pursuing, however, is freedom from Jews, whom it seeks to exterminate. By the Globe's lights, I suppose this would make Hitler a "freedom fighter" too. Hey, who's to judge?\r\n","author":"Ffutal","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 12:21:43","modified":"2003-09-10 12:21:43","fileurl":""},{"id":81837,"heading":"fresca","article":""Why don't you tell us what you think about the terrorist bombing of the Kind David Hotel, the assassination of Bernadotte, the cowardly and unprovoked invasion of Egypt by Israel in 1956 when Egypt was already under attack by British and French imperialist troops, or the slaughter of 20,000 Arabs during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. I guess the latter two can be justified by the need to keep the uncivilized wogs under the control of their betters, eh? Nothing racist about that, of course. \r\n\r\nNot one to duck, like you seem to be since you NEVER answer any points (they're all still there for you...scroll up) here goes. \r\n\r\n\r\nThe King David Hotel was requisitioned by the British Military and was completely occupied by military personel. Therefore it was no less a military target as a tank would be. Furthermore, the Israeli's gave WARNING to the British before the attack. Terrorism it ain't. \r\n\r\nThe Bernedett assasination was definetly stupid strategically and terroristic. As much as the internationalization of Jerusalem was an idea to be avoided, the assasination was wrong I believe. \r\n\r\nThe war for the Suez was precipitated EXCLUSIVELY by Egypt when they nationalized and closed the canal immediately after the exit of British troops. Cut off a major trade route to a neighboring country that you've already attacked once and this is what you get. \r\n\r\nThe 20, 000 "palestinians" slaughtered in Lebanon by LEBANESE was awful, but the fact that Israeli troops were in country does not make them culpable. However, I would have hoped that Sharon would have been forgotten and "retired" indefinetly after standing by and not doing anything to stop it. \r\n\r\nThe point is, is that I know Israel is capable and guilty of awful acts. All states are. You can not or will not say the same of your terrorist heroes. \r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 13:24:47","modified":"2004-03-09 22:02:00","fileurl":""},{"id":81856,"heading":"To everyone","article":"I would just like it to be known that I am "smashtheleft" and that I enjoy making an idiot out of myself everyday on this website by posting asinine comments like "The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it." I'm much too simpleminded to understand the civilized world. I'm a conservative. ","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 14:21:55","modified":"2003-09-10 14:21:55","fileurl":""},{"id":81859,"heading":"^","article":"I would just like it to be known that I am the faker and that I enjoy making an idiot out of myself everyday on this website by posting asinine comments under other people names. I'm much too simpleminded to understand history. I'm a liberal. ","author":"faker","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 14:27:26","modified":"2003-09-10 14:27:26","fileurl":""},{"id":81860,"heading":"^","article":"I would just like it to be known that I am the faker and that I enjoy making an idiot out of myself everyday on this website by posting asinine comments under other people names. I'm much too simpleminded to understand history. I'm a liberal. ","author":"faker","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 14:30:00","modified":"2003-09-10 14:30:00","fileurl":""},{"id":81865,"heading":"^","article":"That was me. The faker is in my head again and I can't get him out. Please check me into the nearest rubber room.","author":"smashtheleft","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 14:39:57","modified":"2003-09-10 14:39:57","fileurl":""},{"id":81873,"heading":"^","article":"Watch out! The faker is right outside your window. You're more fucked than an anal virgin at a gay nightclub.","author":"matt","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 16:31:32","modified":"2003-09-10 16:31:32","fileurl":""},{"id":81917,"heading":"hmmm","article":" if it's not "completely" (absolutely) true then it's not really true at all. \r\n\r\nNo the point is that If you make statments that are misleading then you are less trustworthy\r\n\r\nThe everything's black & white (extremist) mindset. \r\n\r\nHaha and I have been accused of haveing the "nothing is black and white" midset elswhere and I stand bythat one. ahh oh well... cant win eh?\r\n\r\nMore trivializing, now the NGO's don't matter either because - you say they don't. \r\n\r\nhey dont matter because there are better methods. Did you take a sample of businesses and see if you could find 3000 of them that think israel is OK? I expect it would be easy.\r\n\r\n"If this was about Palestine or some other Islamic country (bringing up some UN resolutions against them - there are some) it would be all fine & dandy - as anything is in this "game". "\r\n\r\nif the NGO are talking about specific facts like human rights abuses then it is valid for htem to present those facts for our evaluation. but their opinion is incidental since they have no authority to be decision makers.\r\n\r\n"This again seeks to minimize the actual HUGE DIFFERENCE that's plainly spelled out (all the billions in aid israel get's from our tax dollars - most of which props up israel's otherwise failing ecomomy - we actually PAY to keep israel afloat"\r\n\r\nWe also pay to keep nth korea afloat for some of the same reasons. It is in no-ones interests for israel to fail. not even the palistinians much as they might disbelieve it.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 19:18:34","modified":"2003-09-10 19:18:34","fileurl":""},{"id":81940,"heading":"meyer is scared of a rebellion of the lower class","article":"fresca\r\n\r\nyou won't get any straight answers from him, he is simply a bastard brit suffering from guilt\r\n\r\nBetter to resort to his level and blame every problem in the world on Britain and people like him. (he sort of gets a kick out of it.)","author":"meyer is a moron","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 21:51:24","modified":"2003-09-10 21:51:24","fileurl":""},{"id":81944,"heading":"double standards - double speak","article":""less trustworthy" wasn't the context - it was *complete dismissal*, since you WROTE the original words in that context, to backslide now is simply LYING ABOUT IT.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nre: seeing everything in black & white\r\n\r\n> I stand bythat one\r\n\r\nokaay\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: 3,000 NGO condemning israel's racism\r\n\r\n> a sample of businesses and see if you could find 3000 of them that think israel is OK\r\n\r\nAh - the popularity card. Now I bet those "businesses" you wish to hide behind wouldn't happen to be non-profit humanitarian ? LIKE THE ONE'S ARE THAT CONDEMNED ISRAEL ARE\r\n\r\nHey maybe if you can find 3,000 lemmings that would count too ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: ignoring all resolutions\r\n\r\n> our evaluation. but their opinion is incidental since they have no authority to be decision makers\r\n\r\nSo that leaves war - as I said. Since israel will *listen to no one* because the whole world has "no authority"\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: US aid to israel in the billions\r\n\r\n> We also pay to keep nth korea afloat \r\n\r\nYes but we're not talking about Korea, the whole world didn't condemn THEM...\r\n(the "let's just point the finger elsewhere" game)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> It is in no-ones interests for israel to fail\r\n\r\nFunny - a billion Muslums seem to have a different opinion on that.\r\n\r\nFunnyer still is how you presume to *know what's best* for other people while in the same breath rejecting the whole world's RESOLUTIONS which are based on something a bit beyond opinion - based on FACT, the UN and NGO resolved this as a *finding of fact*\r\n\r\nBut the real giveaway (the window into this same tired black & white thinking) is the word "fail" - it's either let israel do whatever it wants - even ignoring the entire world community's comdemnation of it's racism - or israel must "fail"\r\n\r\n\r\nWhen you see it as a win-lose situation (rather than a lose-lose or win-win) you reveal once more this extremism (either our way or the highyway) How shallow must one be to see the world this way ? What hidden agenda causes one to FRAME the situation in such simple soundbite terms ? Tell me you haven't drowned in your own propaganda, or is it just your natural personality ? Are some people just naturally shallow and extreme ?\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 22:16:09","modified":"2003-09-10 22:16:09","fileurl":""},{"id":81952,"heading":"grumble","article":"1.)Because the world is "smaller", because word travels faster does not impede upon what people occupy a piece of land. It changes the way war is fought, it does not change the results of whatever outcome may occur from a war. When all is said and done, the side which prevails is the new conqueror and will remain so as long as they can defend it.\r\n*a. This does not include the denial concept practiced in Carthridge by the Romans with their salt and US&Co. With DU. This has nothing to do with defending it, it only serves to take use and discard, leaving another dessert on this our garden. \r\n*b. Force of arms and the ability to use them has always worked yes.\r\n*c. But \r\n*d.The weapons are orders more destructive to the FRAGILE ecosphere and your boys are too stupid to know when enough is enough for their own drooling selves sake. The grab by the ruling class is seemingly at a berserk level and they might hurt themselves, in other words. Really don't care except for my inevitable involvement. And my kids. You are kidding me about 'prevails' right? Your playing chess with real people. It seems to be asking a lot for you to feel shame\r\n \r\n2.)Sure there is. You may have a war where it is a stand-off, but that has occured over and over in history also. Because some wars end up in stalemates doesn't mean all wars end up in stalemates.\r\n*e.A stalemate? (see comment after my but) pretty words for continued death and terror or 'hostilities' you word mincing sickboy. \r\n3.)First of all, the earth is not my Mother. So, if you're wishing to make that point, I'm not even willing to discuss that silliness. Nations have be conquering nations for centuries and have not "fucked it up".\r\n*f Someone please tell mr. Tie, we are not playing with HE and poison gas anymore and it will come home. You aren't safe if someone else isn't safe and maybe they lost something because of you. Bows and arrows have been replaced with computers and data bases listserves and networks. We aren't alone now.\r\nSo yes, it is true still today that the land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it. There isn't a single country on the face of the earth that isn't a result of some people having gone in, conquered and tamed the land, and then defended it. \r\n* and we used to bath in the summer but with that and squatting in the streets, we got over it as a culture.\r\n4.)It seems you're trying to make the point that if we have a nuclear or biological holocaust that wipes out all human life on the planet that is a "unwinnable" war. \r\n* well duh.\r\nThe likelihood of all humans being killed is highly unlikely, -\r\n* wow, such assurance without knowledge, without vision.\r\nso those remaining would be those who "conquered" the land. \r\n* (see comment *a.)\r\nAnd actually it makes no sense. Nations have always gone to war for particular reasons. To go to war with the intention of blowing your enemy off the map knowing that they would blow you off the map in return would make no sense. What did you accomplish? Nations don't go to war in order to accomplish their own destruction. \r\nThe cabal does not like the idea of nuclear weapons being used because it would indeed bring their downfall with the sudden shock of Chaos. Now biological war ( water supplies and purifying systems which get destroyed and there could be others ) and DU are being used to accomplish the massacres against unwanted population overburdens that sit on Stuff We Like..\r\n5.)What pisses most of you off about the pharse "The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it" is that is doesn't jive with what you want to happen in Israel. You want the Israeli government to dissolve and all the land they obtained in 1948 to be returned to the Palestinians. Now, that's the big problem you have with it. Because just the statement alone, standing by itself, is undisputed. Any land that has ever been occupied since the beginning of time was land that was occupied by the people living there until someone else came along and took it from them in battle or they just walked away from it. That's just the way it is. So, let's just get the reason you don't like the phrase out in the open.\r\nIt's not just Israel, it's my backyard or my friends backyard, this knuckle dragging ass picking chest thumping destruction is .... regressive?. Just to get laid.\r\n6.)But, that doesn't change anything. Israel now occupies and defends the land. The only way they are going to give it up is if someone goes to war and takes it from them. So all of you yelling "Israel should give back the land they stole" are all wasting your breath. Not gonna happen. Land taken in war is not stolen land, it is conquered land. The USSR conquered what was known as the Eastern Bloc countries of Europe. They were able to defend it. I personally didn't like it. I thought it sucked. Nevertheless, until the USSR fell apart and the countries got their soverignity back, they were under the control of Moscow. There's no disputing that.\r\n*Shit, it sounds like fresca.... ( spells like her too) sorry, all war crimes and land theft must cease now. For everyones safety, including yours\r\n7.)I had this same discussion with nessie at SF-IMC over a year ago. Not my favorite person but he does know his history. He didn't like the phrase either. He thought it wasn't the right way for people to treat each other, which was never my argument. However, he did concede that, in fact, history has demonstrated that the land belongs to those who conquer and defend it. He wanted to change the way people thought about land, but he didn't deny that the phrase was accurate.\r\n* well that's all I had to say. For now\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-10 23:20:38","modified":"2003-09-10 23:20:38","fileurl":""},{"id":81966,"heading":"Sheepdog","article":"Your comments are not worth consideration.\r\n\r\nYou're someone who believes far-out left- wingers like John Kerry and Howard Dean are Nazis. You have no concept of the left, right or middle. Because of that, your views are schewed off the chart into never-never land. People like you have views that are marginalized by the general public. And for good reason.\r\n\r\nNow, do us all a favor and fuck off and die.","author":"axiom","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 00:44:24","modified":"2003-09-11 00:44:24","fileurl":""},{"id":81983,"heading":"mmm","article":"Hex anon w\/ encryption \r\n\r\n""less trustworthy" wasn't the context - it was *complete dismissal*, since you WROTE the original words in that context, to backslide now is simply LYING ABOUT IT."\r\n\r\nWhere did I use "complete dismissal"? now you are lying about what I said. that is bad form you know. \r\nWhat did I say? I said "NGO are a bad sample.." \r\nAre you having a conversation with a "zionist in your head" like so many other people here do?\r\nTry not to be guilty of the things you are accusing others of.\r\n\r\n"Re: 3,000 NGO condemning israel's racism\r\n> a sample of businesses and see if you could find 3000 of them that think israel is OK\r\nAh - the popularity card. Now I bet those "businesses" you wish to hide behind wouldn't happen to be non-profit humanitarian ? LIKE THE ONE'S ARE THAT CONDEMNED ISRAEL ARE"\r\n\r\nPopularity card is what you were using in regard to NGO voting or Governments voting on stuff that they dont really know about. \r\nProfit is jsut one of a number of motivating forces. NGO have a number of biases of their own. For example funds that are focused on a single disease research has a vested interest in overstating the effect and the comunicability of that disease NGO. and that isnt all... use your imagination. \r\nlook at politics and see how quickly human morals bend to the needs of expediency. Money is FAR from the only reason why that happens. to think that it is is nieve\r\n\r\n'Hey maybe if you can find 3,000 lemmings that would count too ?"\r\n\r\nThat ws my point IRONY can you spell it?\r\n\r\n"So that leaves war - as I said. Since israel will *listen to no one* because the whole world has "no authority""\r\n\r\nWar involving who? against who?\r\nand why are they on those sides?\r\nYou are getting so hypothetical that you need to start making specific how your dream world works.\r\n\r\n"Yes but we're not talking about Korea, the whole world didn't condemn THEM...\r\n(the "let's just point the finger elsewhere" game)"\r\n\r\nNo you are wrong again as to what my point is. Because you are making assumptions. My point is YOU HAVE TO (well Im not the nth korean leaders psychologist.. so really I mean "you may have to") keep nth korea afloat because it costs more to have a nuclear war with them than it does to negotiate it. (well costs more to sth korea anyway.)\r\nI am NOT pointing the finger at nth korea I am saying that US polict of paying money to various countries CAN be explained for pragmatic reasons. \r\nBesides it wouldnt be all that hard to get a majority of the world to condem nth korea for starting their nuke program with the appropriate "head banging"....... by why would you bother?\r\n\r\n"Funny - a billion Muslums seem to have a different opinion on that."\r\n\r\nYou will notice I adressed that issue. you know a billion odd people think it would be a good idea for nth korea to fail but if that means it will spit a few nukes at south korea or japan or somwhere else as it does then they would be mistaken. again Im not their psychologist but the scenerio is possible....\r\n\r\n"Funnyer still is how you presume to *know what's best* for other people while in the same breath rejecting the whole world's RESOLUTIONS which are based on something a bit beyond opinion - based on FACT, the UN and NGO resolved this as a *finding of fact*"\r\n\r\nThe average moral standard of the leaders of the world is not all that high. Stick hitler idi amin and attila the hun in a room and ask them to solve a problem and their collective opinion wont be any better than the average.\r\n\r\n"But the real giveaway (the window into this same tired black & white thinking) is the word "fail" - it's either let israel do whatever it wants - even ignoring the entire world community's comdemnation of it's racism - or israel must "fail""\r\n\r\nfor israel to suceed and have peace and harmony with the palistinians would be fine I am all for that. besides country boarders all disappearing and us all singing kumbayah that is the best thing... I just dont think it is likely at the moment and I dont think that is what hamas is aiming for when it bows up buses.\r\n\r\nSo your point makes no sense\r\n\r\n\r\n"When you see it as a win-lose situation (rather than a lose-lose or win-win) you reveal once more this extremism (either our way or the highyway) How shallow must one be to see the world this way ?"\r\n\r\nwin-lose is a relitive thing. anyway we wat a solution that works. if you can propose one then thats nice. at the moment you dont seem to have.\r\n\r\n" What hidden agenda causes one to FRAME the situation in such simple soundbite terms ?"\r\n\r\nread and think.. you can probably work it out.. your a smart boy.\r\n\r\n" Tell me you haven't drowned in your own propaganda, or is it just your natural personality ? Are some people just naturally shallow and extreme ?"\r\n\r\nYou are arguing with the zionist in your head again. go talk to concerned zionist about that.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 07:03:56","modified":"2003-09-11 07:03:56","fileurl":""},{"id":81988,"heading":"tap dancing may be amusing BUT","article":"> now you are lying about what I said\r\n\r\n\r\n*Show where* I "lied about what you said" - provide the \r\nquotes that prove this. (I already did for you)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n"zionist in your head"\r\n\r\nI never mentioned the word. Yet you find you must \r\nbring it up - why ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Popularity card is what you were using in regard to \r\nNGO voting or Governments voting on stuff \r\n\r\nNO - what I brought up (in the original context - not your \r\nframing) is *a statement of fact* - the fact being did \r\nthey or did they NOT resolve as a statement of fact the \r\nisrael is racist ? FACT\r\n\r\nFunny how the word fact is lost in your writings (poorly \r\nsubstituted with opinion & popularity) then a new \r\nword "zionist" enters the discussion by your own \r\ndoing, as a weapon to be used against anyone who \r\nbrings up FACTS. (the UN resolution on sept 4'th \r\n2001) My statement of FACT is that they DID *in fact* \r\ndo this - resolved that israel is racist...\r\n\r\n\r\n> That ws my point IRONY can you spell it?\r\n\r\nNo but I can spell "TAP DANCING" - can you ?\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: israel rejecting any nation any NGO which leaves \r\nwar as the only remaining option\r\n\r\n> War involving who? against who? \r\nand why are they on those sides? \r\nYou are getting so hypothetical that you need to start \r\nmaking specific how your dream world works. \r\n\r\nAgain it's simply the logical next step. (if israel refuses \r\nto listen to any nation\/NGO war is the only option left) \r\n Asking 20 questions about "who do you think will start \r\na war with israel" is simply a DIVERSION TACTIC to \r\nAVOID this issue. At a more basic level I don't need \r\nto "go there" because it's not my concern. It's israel's \r\nconcern - they are the subject - NOT ME.\r\n\r\n\r\nRe: israel being the subject v. pointing fingers - talking\r\n about other countries to AVOID talking about israel\r\n \r\n> US polict of paying money to various countries CAN \r\nbe explained\r\n\r\nAgain "various countries" isn't the subject - the subject \r\nis DID or DIDN'T the UN and NGO's resolve on sept \r\n4'th 2001 that ISRAEL ("not various countries") is \r\nracist ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n>I adressed that issue \/ -a billion odd people think it \r\nwould be a good idea for nth korea \r\n\r\nNO your SIDE-STEPPING the issue. The issue is DID \r\nor DIDN'T the UN and NGO's resolve on sept 4'th 2001 \r\nthat ISRAEL ("not various countries") is racist ? North \r\nKorea isn't the subject because the UN and NGO's \r\ndidn't reach that resolution WITH THEM on sept 4'th\r\n 2001\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Stick hitler idi amin and attila the hun in a room\r\n\r\nAnd you tried to accuse ME of being hypothetical ! I \r\nstay on-track on the STATEMENT OF FACT while you \r\ntap dance around it calling ME hypothetical then next \r\nthing you know "hitler idi amin and attila the hun" are in \r\na room.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> My point is YOU HAVE TO - keep nth korea afloat\r\n\r\nAnd MY point is North Korea OR ANY OTHER \r\nCOUNTRY *isn't* the issue because the UN and\r\n NGO's didn't reach that resolution WITH ANY OTHER \r\nCOUNTRY on sept 4'th 2001 - ISRAEL is the country \r\nin question.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> country boarders all disappearing and us all singing\r\n kumbayah that is the best thing... I just dont think it is \r\nlikely at the moment and I dont think that is what \r\nhamas is aiming for when it bows up buses.\r\n\r\nOnce more the issue isn't Hamas - it's ISRAEL, on \r\nsept 4'th 2001 it wasn't North Korea wasn't Hamas, \r\nwasn't ANY OTHER COUNTRY that they reached this \r\nresolution for - it was ISRAEL. Changing the subject \r\nto AVOID THIS FACT is non-productive. And I will not \r\nbe drawn into wasting my or the reader's time doing it.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> anyway we wat a solution that works. if you can propose one then thats nice \r\n\r\nI'm not here to answer 20 questions or propose \r\nsolutions (since israel rejects the entire world's \r\nFINDINGS OF FACT, war is the only remaining option. \r\n If you think war "works" as a solution that's nice for \r\nyou but since israel is a tiny country surrounded by a \r\nmuch larger population who - shall we say - "doesn't \r\nlike" israel, what thier chances are we'll just have to \r\nsee.. At least people will know how isreal refuced to \r\nlisten to the UN (all the worlds countries) and \r\ntherefore *brought it on themselves*... I intend to \r\nmake sure EVERYONE knows this by showing them \r\nthis resolution so people know for sure israel \r\ndeserves what they sowed.\r\n\r\nTap dancing, finger pointing and distracting "what if's" \r\ndon't address this issue (which will become key)\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> - zionist in your head again \/ talk to concerned zionist \r\nabout that.\r\n\r\n\r\nZionist is a label YOU keep bringing up (red herring) - I \r\nnever said one word about them. I said the UN \r\nresolved on Sept 4'th 2001 that >>>ISRAEL IS \r\nRACIST<<<. That it's a STATEMENT OF FACT, after \r\nLOOKING AT THE FACTS. Nothing more & nothing \r\nless.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 08:27:53","modified":"2003-09-11 08:27:53","fileurl":""},{"id":82171,"heading":"adf","article":"" NO - what I brought up (in the original context - not your\r\nframing) is *a statement of fact* - the fact being did\r\nthey or did they NOT resolve as a statement of fact the\r\nisrael is racist ? FACT"\r\n\r\neven if they say it is a fact that doesnt make it one. That would require them to prove it.\r\n\r\n"Again it's simply the logical next step. (if israel refuses\r\nto listen to any nation\/NGO war is the only option left)\r\nAsking 20 questions about "who do you think will start\r\na war with israel" is simply a DIVERSION TACTIC to\r\nAVOID this issue."\r\n\r\nAre you saying you want to start a war and figure out what will happen later? That is insane. What if the result is worse than the current situation (which it will almost certainly be). \r\n\r\n"NO your SIDE-STEPPING the issue. "\r\n\r\nNo you are redefining the issue in order to try to make me take your straw man. \r\n\r\n"Once more the issue isn't Hamas - it's ISRAEL"\r\n\r\nYou cant sy somthing is the issue in isolation of everything else. \r\n\r\n"Zionist is a label YOU keep bringing up"\r\n\r\n"zionist in your head" zionist means supporter of israel substitute those words if oyu like but the point is the one in your head isnt even a real supporter of israel he is the person you WANT to be the supporter of israel because he would make such a good straw man.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 18:21:53","modified":"2003-09-11 18:21:53","fileurl":""},{"id":82175,"heading":"Hex","article":"The worst problem with your above post is you are using the "people wont do what i say and live in harmony so I will kill them all" sort of argument.\r\n \r\nA) because there are always a number of different perspectives in an argument that philosophy results in perpetual war if it is held by all the people.\r\nB) Since you are not offering practical alternitives it is not workable even if you are the only one who has that philosophy. \r\nC) you will loose so your wasting your time anyway.\r\nD) your problem is 3000 people dying over a few years your solution is millions dying in a few weeks. ie your solution is worse than the problem you are trying to solve.\r\n\r\nAny of those reasons are good enough for most sane peopel to reject it out of hand.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 18:29:41","modified":"2003-09-11 18:29:41","fileurl":""},{"id":82192,"heading":"playing with me causes more FACTS to be posted","article":"Re: the resolution the UN and 3,000 NGO's reached on Sept 4'th 2001 from the results of a FACT FINDING INVESTIGATION\r\n\r\n\r\n> That would require them to prove it. \r\n\r\n\r\nDidn't israel *walk out* when they tried to ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> Are you saying you want to start a war and figure out what will happen later? That is insane. \r\n\r\n\r\nAre you asking a RHETORICAL QUESTION AGAIN ?\r\n\r\n\r\nre: me wishing to stay on-topic about the resolution the UN & 3,000 NGO's made Sept 4'th 2001 that israel walked out on\r\n\r\n\r\n> No you are redefining the issue in order to try to make me take your straw man. \r\n\r\nSince when is staying on-topic "redefining" and since when are the results of a FINDING OF FACT a strawman arguement ?\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> You cant sy somthing is the issue in isolation of everything else. \r\n\r\n\r\nI just did, on Sept 4'th 2001 the UN and 3,000 NGO's reached a resolution after a *finding of fact* that israel is racist.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n> zionist means supporter of israel\r\n\r\n\r\nMaybe to you. It means something else to me, and NO I'm not inclined to elaborate on it. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nA - it's not a matter of perspective - it's FACT, there ARE no perspectives of FACT\r\n\r\nB - it's not my concern to offer "workable" solutions to problems *someone else created* - I simply report FACTS\r\n\r\nC - defeatism was never one of my qualities (I have experience in microbiology)\r\n\r\nD - rhetorical statements - you're attempting to tell me what I say, think, feel and believe\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nQ. Did israel *accidently* attack the USS Liberty ?\r\n\r\n\r\nA. Here's a TV program someone recorded - it's a bunch of interviews with men *on the ship at the time* talking about how the pilots were buzzing by so close they *even waved at eachother* and so on (the ship was flying an american flag as big as a billboard in BROAD DAYLIGHT) \r\n\r\nListening to these men who went through it talking about it in thier own words there's *absolutely no question* israel knew they were attacking an american ship killing 34, injuring 172\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 19:01:19","modified":"2003-09-11 19:01:19","fileurl":""},{"id":82233,"heading":"mmmm","article":"Since when is staying on-topic "redefining" \r\n\r\n- since you redefined the topic to which you are "staying" of course. \r\n\r\n"I just did, on Sept 4'th 2001 the UN and 3,000 NGO's reached a resolution after a *finding of fact* that israel is racist. "\r\n\r\nwll now you are returning to your initial statement.\r\nso in relation to that\r\nI make a finding of fact that there are very many countries more racist than israel.\r\nHowever I am willing to also make a finding of fact that ALL countries in the world are to some extent racist.\r\n\r\n"Maybe to you. It means something else to me, and NO I'm not inclined to elaborate on it."\r\n\r\nWell that isnt very productive is it. but I guess it is your habit to secretly redefine words isnt it.\r\n\r\n"A - it's not a matter of perspective - it's FACT, there ARE no perspectives of FACT "\r\n\r\nYes there are.. Dont make me have to prove that to you.. its too tedious to go into here.\r\n\r\n"B - it's not my concern to offer "workable" solutions to problems *someone else created* - I simply report FACTS"\r\n\r\nJust like israels actions have concequences (such as terrorism) so do your actions. why should you hold israel to a higher level of acountability and required foresight than you hold youself to?\r\n\r\n"C - defeatism was never one of my qualities (I have experience in microbiology) "\r\n\r\nI know about your microbiology you dont have to repeat anything to me.\r\n\r\n"Q. Did israel *accidently* attack the USS Liberty ? "\r\n\r\nYes.. YAWN\r\n\r\nNegligence is more common than evilness. There is pleanty of evidence out there for you on that topic.\r\n\r\nActually I dont suport israel for some "i love israel" reason or "jews are cool" reason so this particular quite old case is irrelevant to me. ","author":"scottie","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 22:15:01","modified":"2003-09-11 22:15:01","fileurl":""},{"id":82245,"heading":"did you even listen to this ?","article":"Amazing. This is now the 3'rd time you've went in circles, and I was going to refute (yet again - with FACTS, which funny you seem to cling to only by implication and promise) But when I saw THIS;\r\n\r\n"Q. Did israel *accidently* attack the USS Liberty ? " \r\n\r\nYes.. YAWN \r\n\r\n\r\nNow I only have ONE question - and this "discussion" ends afterward since with "Yes.. YAWN" it's completely obvious you'll never NEVER admit even the most concrete facts.. You see this was a TRICK question which I didn't really think you'd be stupid enough to claim was an accident, and doing so to THIS QUESTION, when I PROVIDED *THIS* PROOF shows you'll never ever admit a damn truth at all (and so debating with you is a total waste of time - you are in fact a TIME SINK)\r\n\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/clients.loudeye.com\/imc\/mayday\/uss_liberty.mp3 \r\n\r\n\r\nMy last remaining question - did you listen to this ?\r\n\r\n","author":"Hex anon w\/ encryption","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 23:30:41","modified":"2003-09-11 23:30:41","fileurl":""},{"id":82247,"heading":"Someone should put KOBE out of our misery.","article":"These losers have got to go.","author":"S. Orr","parent_id":81240,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-11 23:35:17","modified":"2003-09-11 23:35:17","fileurl":""}]}