{"article":{"id":75503,"heading":"Should the U.S. Intervene in Liberia?","author":"IMC","created":"2003-08-03 18:26:28","modified":"2003-09-01 18:13:06","last_modified":"Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:13:06","article":"

What do you think? Should we intervene? What is the motivation for the U.S. to get involved? Why the delay in action?<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"QUESTIONS:","numcomment":36,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/08\/75503.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":75542,"heading":"No, we should not.","article":"We cannot oppose the "war" in Iraq, and then support "intervention" or worse, "humanitarian intervention" in Liberia. It's truly awful in Liberia, but the U.S. is not a force that acts on behalf of democratic "nation-building". It looks out for its own interest, but the average working person in the U.S. will not benefit anymore from our troops being in Liberia than in Iraq. We cannot condone any military advance of the American Empire if we are dedicated to stopping U.S.enforced hegemony. South Los Angeles is already at war. Benton Harbor is at war. 2 million people in prison in the Land of the Free! That is what deserves our attention right now. Let's free those on death row, in our ghettos, being beaten by police. Let's at least let black people in Florida vote, for God's sake. We will not let the Bush-led "peacekeeping mission" abroad distract us further, not to mention fuck up Liberia even more. ","author":"Michael McGroarty","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-04 04:47:14","modified":"2003-08-04 04:47:14","fileurl":""},{"id":75544,"heading":"us already intervened in liberia","article":"xix century:\r\n\r\nus creates a liberian state run by freed,upper-echelon slaves who become liberia's ruling elite at the expense of the locals - both charles taylor and his adversaries belong to this elite\r\n\r\n1925:\r\n\r\nfirestone buys a giant swath of liberia to produce its own rubber - fuck the locals!!!\r\n\r\nthese days:\r\n\r\nnoone in the ruling western elites in the world has an interest in stopping the liberian civil war all too soon because:\r\n\r\n1.the west sells every rebel group weapons - the more groups,the longer the war,all the better\r\n\r\n2.war drives up the price of diamonds illegally traded thru liberia,which is good for taylor and for the western pigs who cut and sell that shit in amsterdam.\r\n\r\nthat's beginning to understand liberia.","author":"us already intervened in liberia","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-04 07:13:36","modified":"2003-08-04 07:13:36","fileurl":""},{"id":75629,"heading":"Good analysis on indymedia.ie","article":"Summary: Liberia was an unpleasant client-state of the USA in a French-dominated region. Taylor was another puppet for US foreign policy who got too big for his boots. A humanitarian crisis has been allowed to develop and an intervention will occur as a result. Racist media portrayals of "African conflict" (it's inevitable without a "civilized" "Western" "democracy" don't ya know?) will occlude this historical picture. Meanwhile oil seeps out of the corners of the portrait.\r\n\r\nSame old story. \r\n\r\nTwo informative comments:\r\nhttp:\/\/www.indymedia.ie\/newswire.php?story_id=60648&PHPSESSID=4184e39c52ca5f6cdc40122ed3ef2d05#comment42210\r\nhttp:\/\/www.indymedia.ie\/newswire.php?story_id=60648&PHPSESSID=4184e39c52ca5f6cdc40122ed3ef2d05#comment42257\r\n","author":"leprechaun2003","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-05 16:13:20","modified":"2003-08-05 16:13:20","fileurl":""},{"id":75645,"heading":"but","article":"It isnt so important what the US HAS done in liberia. what we want to know is what SHOULD it do now.\r\nYou can sit around all day weeping about the things you have done wrong or you can go out there and do somthing right. I know which I would prefer.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-05 19:14:52","modified":"2003-08-05 19:14:52","fileurl":""},{"id":75647,"heading":"Amen Brother!","article":"\r\n\r\n"Let's at least let black people in Florida vote, for God's sake. "\r\n\r\nRight on Comrade!\r\n\r\nWe should also allow the overseas service men to have their write in votes counted as well. Those facsists Dems threw them all out!","author":"fresca","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-05 19:29:10","modified":"2003-08-05 19:29:10","fileurl":""},{"id":75654,"heading":"But but but ....","article":""It isnt so important what the US HAS done in liberia. what we want to know is what SHOULD it do now."\r\n\r\nSometimes in order to "go out there and do something right" you have to have a little bit of knowledge about the place you're going to and how it got that way. Otherwise you're just another ignorant fool meddling with other people's lives and countries with nothing to guide you except prejudice, self-righteousness and moral infallibility.\r\n\r\n","author":"Net Tard","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-05 21:14:09","modified":"2003-08-05 21:14:09","fileurl":""},{"id":75663,"heading":"Ned","article":"We know where we came from. We are now moving on to what to do about it. When you catch up we can have a serious discussion.\r\n\r\n","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-05 22:10:29","modified":"2003-08-05 22:10:29","fileurl":""},{"id":75943,"heading":"from a-infos","article":"Long answer: \r\nIt is virtually impossible to find out what is really going on, who is pulling the strings and all that in somewhere like Liberia, because there are very few sources of current information. The international\r\nmedia is not interested until it reaches crisis and once that has happened, it is really too late to find out, they can't travel outside Monrovia and they only really report on the humanitarian crisis aspect of things. \r\nHowever, there are certain things that you can say for sure about Liberia that allow you to make a pretty good guess about what is going on.\r\n\r\nLiberia was established, by the order of President Monroe (hence Monrovia) by a small number of slaves repatriated from the US after the abolition of slavery in the US. These ex-slaves were consciously\r\nestablished as a local ruling class to serve US interests. They quickly subjugated the tribes of the interior and practically recreated the slavery which they had come from, this time with them as the\r\nmasters. Curiously enough, the fashions of late 19th century Southern US still survived until very recently among the Liberian elite. \r\nRich folk live in plantation style mansions and wear top hats and waistcoats. Anyway, since the basis of their power was almost entirely external, their was no limits to their corruption, and Liberia has always been one of Africa's most messed up countries.\r\n\r\nIn the 1980's Charles Taylor seized power, after a saga of brutal\r\nfeuds among the ruling class. Taylor is no more than a violent\r\ngangster, ruling the country like a godfather, but for a long time he\r\nwas tolerated by the US since he was useful to them. For example he\r\nwas one of the main conduits for illicit US aid to UNITA in Angola, in\r\nparticular laundering their 'blood diamonds'. He was also a useful US\r\nbridgehead in a region where France's colonial hold is still strong.\r\n\r\nAlthough there has long been a diamond industry in Liberia, in the\r\n1990's there were discoveries of large deposits of kimberlite (a\r\nmineral which indicates the presence of diamonds) in the region along\r\nthe border of Sierra Leone, Guinea and Liberia. When I was in the\r\nregion in 2000, I met a de Beers geologist who had just finished a\r\nstint of exploration along the Guinea border. He had just bought an\r\nisland off the coast of Mozambique and was retiring there - in his\r\nmid-30's!\r\n\r\nTaylor let his gangster instincts go to his head and started getting\r\nway to uppity for his overlords' liking. In the late 1990's he backed\r\nFoday Sankoh's RUF guerillas in Sierra Leone, little more than a gang\r\nof diamond thieves, to the annoyance of the British and yanks. It\r\nwasn't until about 1999, after the intervention of Ecomog and south\r\nafrican mercenaries that the RUF were driven out of their diamond\r\nmines. Ecomog is essentially cover for the Nigerian military, the\r\nregional strong man, and also global capitalism's enforcer of choice in\r\nthe region. At the same time Taylor was skirmishing with the\r\nGuineans along their border, again going after their diamond producing\r\nareas. In late 2000 a rebel army invaded Liberia from Guinea.\r\nAlthough this army claimed to be an independent body of Liberian\r\nexiles, everybody knew it was armed, trained and mobilised by the\r\nGuinean government, almost certainly taking orders from Paris.\r\n\r\nFinally, the straw that broke the camel's back was Taylor's meddling\r\nin the civil war that broke out in Cote D'Ivoire earlier this year. A\r\nrebellion broke out in the North of the coutry against Gbagbo's\r\ngovernent - a staunch french ally. The rebellion has, in my opinion, the\r\nbacking of the US who have been long trying to wrest influence away\r\nfrom the French in this coutry which is effectively the capital of\r\nFrench West Africa. At a time when the rebels were advancing on\r\nAbidjan, Taylor screwed things up by backing a third force which\r\ninvaded Cote D'Ivoire from the West and took the regional capital of\r\nMan.\r\n\r\nThe US has made it abundantly clear that they want Taylor out. In\r\nfact they openly state that the first precondition for peace in the\r\ncountry is Taylor's resignation and they refuse to even talk to him\r\nabout a negotiated settlement. The invading force simply must be\r\narmed and financed from Washington, although the aid is probably\r\nfunneled through Sierra Leone, Cote D'Ivoire and Guinea. The rebels\r\nare currently beseiging Monrovia where Taylor's loyalists are making\r\ntheir last stand. The US is playing its classic double game. On the\r\none hand they do not want to get involved in any fighting so they are\r\nwaiting until Taylor has been removed before they get directly\r\ninvolved. At the same time they are letting everybody know, in a clear\r\nbut subtle way, that they are backing the rebellion. It is interesting to\r\nnote that the rebels are copying UNITA's tactics in Angola - use\r\nterror to empty the countryside of people and make them all seek\r\nrefuge in the city, in the hope that the resulting humanitarian crisis\r\nwill cause the regime to collapse.\r\n\r\nThey have created this humanitarian catastrophe, in a calculated and\r\nscientific way, which they will do nothing to resolve. But at the same\r\ntime they have started drumming it up in the media. This is paving the\r\nway for their intervention - but only when things have reached a\r\nfavourable balance of power and the war has effectively been won. At\r\nthis stage they will send in peacekeepers to safeguard their conquest\r\nof power, to make sure that the latest warlords don't go getting any\r\nbig ideas, and to mop up any remaining resistance to their monopoly\r\non diamond production. This will probably initially involve some US\r\ntroops but they will cede the job of occupation to Ecomog. They don't\r\nwant to have to deal with the unpopular side of being an occupying\r\narmy. The Ecomog 'peacekeeping' troops in Sierra Leone were far\r\nfrom popular and suffered many losses, despite the fact that they had\r\ndriven out the hated RUF. A UN report into their mission found that\r\nthey had been involved in extensive diamond smuggling, rape, murder\r\nand all that other stuff that always goes with occupation. A notable\r\naside is that the Indian general who produced the report was forced to\r\nresign immediately afterwards and no changes were made to the\r\noccupation. Peacekeepers in Liberia will doubtless do the same.\r\n\r\nThe story is horrific, but it is not atypical. In general this is what\r\nintervention and peacekeeping means. Peacekeepers can't be\r\ndeployed against the wishes of the permanent members of the UN\r\nsecurity council, who also happen to be the big imperialist powers. In\r\ngeneral they are only employed to maintain the status quo once it has\r\nreached a balance favourable to the big powers. Humanitarian\r\ncatastrophes are a favourite ploy, not only to justify intervention to\r\nthe world, but to depose an unwanted ruler without actually having to\r\nfight against him and to decimate the society to such a point that not\r\nonly will there be no resistance, but they will be welcomed with open\r\narms.\r\n\r\nSo that is my opinion. It is quite possible that I am wrong in several\r\nimportant details, since I haven't been following the situation in West\r\nAfrica too closely for the last year or so and th e information is from\r\nmemory. However, I'd be very surprised indeed if the essence was\r\nother than what I have described.\r\n\r\n*************************************************\r\n> Been doing a bit of readin' up on Liberia by Chekov Sunday, Aug 3 2003\r\n(Replies\/responce to comments on the above text posted in indymedia.org.ie)\r\n\r\nwhich, by the way, I'd recommend to some of you US flag wavers.\r\nDoesn't it make y'all feel a little uncomfortable blindly cheerleading\r\nthe US, in a situation where you openly admit to knowing absolutely\r\nnothing about what's going on? I mean, even if somebody wrote an\r\narticle criticising my mother, I'd try to investigate the claims before\r\nleaping to her defence! Do y'all really trust your government so much\r\nthat you think that it's always doing good and you don't even have to\r\nbother finding out what it's up to?\r\n\r\nSince I wrote the comment, Charles Taylor has announced that he is\r\nquiting, followed closely by the security council vote to "authorise a\r\nmulti-national force"[Sunday Tribune]. "The United States pushed for\r\nthe vote" and "US ambassador John Negroponte has said the Bush\r\nadministration wants the force being assembled by...Ecowas to take\r\nthe lead, with the United States providing support." Pretty much\r\nexactly what I predicted. Again I could be entirely wrong, I don't have\r\nenough information to be certain, but it's a pretty good indication\r\nwhen a theory is useful in predicting the future.\r\n\r\nWhat's more I am interested to see that France abstained from the\r\nvote. They cited the ICC as the reason, but I'd say that imperial\r\nrivalry is a more likely explanation. Another interesting titbit that I\r\nsaw was this, from an aid worker writing in the Tribune, "Almost\r\neverywhere we go people call out for food...how are they supposed to\r\nunderstand why the four aid agencies left in the country don't 'do'\r\nfood? Even I don't quite get it, and I've been doing this work for years.\r\n... shortage is not the issue. So what went wrong? simple really: they\r\nleft all their eggs in one basket, at the port which is now controlled by\r\nthe rebels. Strange really, when every other agency which had stocks\r\nin that part of town had moved a good portion of them to the other\r\nside of town in case of future attacks." To me it's not so strange,\r\nindeed it sounds very much like my description of a consciously\r\nmanufactured humanitarian crisis. Just in case any of the flag wavers\r\nhappen to go off and actually read something about Liberia (faint\r\nhope), I'll answer their objections in advance. Yes, the agencies\r\nresponsible for the food distribution are from the UN (principally the\r\nWFP) but they effectively take orders from the US embassy in\r\nLiberia.\r\n\r\nThen a few quotes from the human rights watch document linked\r\nabove: "Although U.S. pressure on the Liberian government to\r\naddress human rights abuses remained strong, the U.S. failed publicly\r\nto condemn both abuses by LURD rebels and the government of\r\nGuinea for providing logistical and some military support to LURD.\r\nThe closest it came to doing so was in a March 1 statement by the\r\nU.S. ambassador in Monrovia condemning the renewed fighting in\r\nLiberia, and calling on the Liberian government to take steps to\r\nrespect human rights and the rule of law. Although the statement\r\nstopped short of naming Guinea, the statement did call on 'all parties\r\nin the region to cease supporting any group that seeks political\r\nchange through violence and to respect their neighbor's borders.'\r\n\r\nThe U.S. government's silence on LURD abuses and Guinea's support\r\nfor LURD was particularly notable given that the U.S. government\r\nbegan a U.S.$3 million program to provide training and non-lethal\r\nequipment to the Guinean military in May 2002."\r\n\r\nAgain, very close indeed to my analysis above. The one point of error\r\nbeing that Guinea is acting as an agent of the US in Liberia, rather\r\nthan of France. Makes more sense that way I suppose, and the\r\nGuinean government has long been the most difficult of France's\r\ncharges in the region.\r\n\r\nTo answer Drbinoche's objection about the lack of M16s. When we\r\nsay that country A arms country B, we don't mean that they put a load\r\nof weapons in a box and ship them off directly with a return to sender\r\naddress! In general when you are supporting an armed faction in\r\nAfrica you don't want to make it that obvious. To create an armed\r\nfaction you need two things, money and a supply route. The money is\r\ntrifling, with a few millions you can buy enough arms to destabilise\r\nmost african regimes. The supply route is more difficult, you have to\r\nget a government in the region to launder the arms. This entails this\r\nthird party buying them on the international market and covertly\r\nexporting them to their intended destination. In general the arms\r\nbought are always of the AK47\/RPG variety, because they are cheap\r\nand readily available on the international market, regardless of the\r\nsource of the money. Although the governments of the region are\r\nalways scheming against each other and arming factions in each\r\nother's countries, this is almost always with the approval of one of\r\nthe two big imperialist powers in the region, the US\/UK or France. If\r\nyou disobey them, you get ousted - a la Taylor.\r\n\r\nOnce you have the money and arms supply, it is very easy to start the\r\ninsurrection. With unemployment (in terms of paid labour) running at\r\n90% plus in most of West Africa, there are always a plentiful supply\r\nof recruits among the youth. Early teens are preferred as they make\r\nbetter killers, lacking the ability to contextualise their deeds.\r\n\r\nIf you are smart you will channel your money through an existing\r\nethnic strong man, who will recruit exclusively from a particular 'tribe'\r\nand thus gain leverage from existing ethnic tension. If you are really\r\nsmart, and rich, you will fund a few of them simultaneously as the\r\nchance of any particular strong man losing his way is quite high. If\r\nthey become too corrupt they will not give a good return of suffering\r\nfor your dollar, on the other hand the power may go to their heads and\r\ngive them notions of independence.\r\n\r\nTo answer a couple of objections:\r\n\r\na) No this is not anti-americanism. For a start I'm talking about what\r\nthe US government is doing. As you are all making abundantly clear,\r\nthis is done with pretty much zero knowledge on the part of the\r\npopulation. In fact in Africa in general, but particularly West Africa,\r\nthe French government has had a much worse effect, basically\r\nbecause they've had the chance. Whereas the US deliberately\r\nblocked any intervention to stop the genocide in Rwanda, France\r\neventually intervened to protect the remnants of the Interahamwe!\r\nInterestingly Giscard d'Estaing, the big EU man is personally\r\ncomplicit in some of their worst crimes. He used to go elephant\r\nhunting with Bokassa in the CAR - a name which even surpasses\r\nAmin in terms of depravity. Not that the US\/UK aren't doing their\r\nbest. UNITA has to have been one of the most brutal movements the\r\nworld has ever seen to name but one of the horrors they have\r\nunleashed upon Africa.\r\n\r\nb) I am not absolving Africans of blame. I am merely asking why this\r\nis happening. There are, of course, a large number of Africans deeply\r\nguilty. It really has nothing to do with race. Give me a country with a\r\nsimilar economic situation to Liberia, give me a few million and a\r\nsupply route for arms and I'll destroy it. Doesn't matter where it is,\r\ndoesn't matter what colour the people are, it's easy. History has\r\nshown, time and again, that, with power, you can manipulate\r\nsituations so that people will do the most horrific things to each other.\r\nThis does not absolve the immediate actors of blame. The various\r\nkillers in Liberia are just as guilty as those complicit in the nazi\r\nregime were (incidentally a much higher proportion of the population\r\nthan in Liberia). Although, as with the nazis, the greatest blame\r\nclearly lies with those who give plan everything and give the orders.\r\n\r\nc) To refute Paul's argument, you only need to mention auschwitz,\r\ntwo world wars, the slave trade ... Actually, for somebody like Paul,\r\nprobably the best refutation is a look in the mirror or listen to your\r\nown dumb arguments, no genetic superiority there, that's for sure!\r\n\r\nd) Seanin's accusation of me being racist is hilarious. Seanin, I'd have\r\nthought that 'racist' was a compliment in your book. Well, you've\r\nfound me out, I think blacks are superior to whites. For this reason I\r\nhate and pity myself, my family, most of my friends, my girlfriend and\r\nthe vast majority of the Irish population. If only we were black, I\r\nrepeat over and over.\r\n\r\nFinally, I'd really love if some of you pro-US government 'no matter\r\nwhat it does', types went off and tried to refute some of these\r\narguments. In places like Liberia they often don't bother to cover their\r\ntracks too well. They can rely on the deep racism of the media and\r\nestablishment. In general most people just assume that this type of\r\nthing is 'just what Africans do'. Even among left-leaning types this\r\ntype of thinking is endemic. It is very rare indeed for people to visit\r\nthese region from the west, without being part of one of the complicit\r\nbodies. I was fortunate enough to spend a year or so in the region and\r\nwas particularly shocked at what the NGOs are actually doing there.\r\nRead more at the link supplied.\r\n\r\nrelated link:\r\nhttp:\/\/flag.blackened.net\/revolt\/africa\/accounts\/chekov.html\r\n","author":"~","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-08 04:39:04","modified":"2003-08-08 04:39:04","fileurl":""},{"id":76169,"heading":"hmm","article":""this stage they will send in peacekeepers to safeguard their conquest of power."\r\n\r\nIf you view the world as a power struggle of the US to control everything then you will always come to these conclusions. to a limited extent you are right in as far as the US obviously will be more reluctant to do things that are obviously against its own interests. But unlike most of the other countries in the world somtimes it will do it anyway.\r\n\r\nIt seems everytiime this sort of situation occurs you (pl) do this\r\nA) both you and the USA know everything so if they disagree with you it must be because they are intentionally doing it wrong\r\nB)The USA unlike any other country must act in the interests of the world and not its own interests.\r\nC) You compare the results with utopia as opposed to the alternative. therefore negitive effects cound against the USA positive ones dont count for it.\r\n\r\n- if one is to use those grounds then it is also equally relevant to look at the world in any of a hundred other ways for example some people might say "its an african thing" or its a function of history or its a function of GDP or culture or experience with civilized society or experience with an institution (the legal system for example) etc.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-08 19:38:21","modified":"2003-08-08 19:38:21","fileurl":""},{"id":76560,"heading":"Why did the US spend $3 million dollars on military aid to Guinea","article":"Guinea are backing LURD in Liberia and channeling US aid to them. Why is the US constantly destabilising Third world countries?","author":"Malatesta","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-10 20:58:07","modified":"2003-08-10 20:58:07","fileurl":""},{"id":77536,"heading":"What's Behind the Crisis in Liberia?","article":""So while Bush has called for the ouster of Taylor--who has provisionally accepted an offer of exile in Nigeria--Washington's solution is to replace one warlord with another. If the U.S. does move to intervene militarily, it's because Liberia sits near substantial oil reserves in the Gulf of Guinea. U.S. oil companies--including Exxon-Mobil and Chevron-Texaco--are expected to invest more than $10 billion in African oil this year."\r\nhttp:\/\/www.counterpunch.org\/sustar07122003.html\r\n\r\n\r\nThis is an article of July. I did not find much other articles about the Intervention in Liberia.\r\n\r\ngreetings, Guido(Belgium)","author":"Guido","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-18 09:25:06","modified":"2003-08-18 09:25:06","fileurl":""},{"id":77552,"heading":"Its the US fault!","article":"It is! I read Noam Chimsky and i say its the US fault!","author":"LL","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-18 13:57:58","modified":"2003-08-18 13:57:58","fileurl":""},{"id":77640,"heading":"The Only Thing the US Should Do","article":"The only thing the United States should do is dissolve.","author":"Morpheus","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-19 00:14:57","modified":"2003-08-19 00:14:57","fileurl":""},{"id":77641,"heading":"God-damn anti-american scum","article":"Surprise, surprise - the anti-american nuts are blaming it all on America. When will the blame america first crowd ever learn? I guess their brains have turned to sludge from hanging out with those niggers all the time. Liberia proves that blacks are inferior and should be subjecated to white rule. They are barbarian savages - more animal than human. These filth make me sick. They do not have the brain capacity for freedom. Enslaving them was the only benevolent option. The brown horde is out to destroy western civilization, we must defend outselves from these deranged monkeys. The white nigger lovers are traitors to democracy, and should be sent to reeducation camps to fix their broken heads.","author":"moderate","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-19 00:20:29","modified":"2003-08-19 00:20:29","fileurl":""},{"id":77647,"heading":"I love a marching Parrade","article":"feed children into it before it turns on us to feed","author":"Billions Moron this War","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-19 01:33:48","modified":"2003-08-19 01:33:48","fileurl":""},{"id":77648,"heading":"What makes you Human ass-wipe?","article":"Could you kindly explain what you meant when you said ". The brown horde is out to destroy western civilization" Are you rational enough to back your one-celled, uneducated fuck of a hick brain of yours? Think before you speak or write. You sound like a puppet. The people of Africa are far more human than you will ever be...There is a word in the dictionary which spells\r\nC-O-M-P-P-A-S-I-O-N...look it up. Oh and do you even know what democracy is? Your writing makes no sense. ","author":"Jennifer","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-19 01:59:11","modified":"2003-08-19 01:59:11","fileurl":""},{"id":78586,"heading":"Killing Democracy in Liberia","article":"First off I want to thank Chekhov for his lucid well thought out posts. Definately better than the filler material on the IMC front-page, which sounded like the Lib-humanitarian interventionist jargon we've been getting out of some US, Canadian and British media outlets. \r\n\r\nI agree that its not worth dialoguing with the racists and pro-imperialists on the list. They simply function from assumptions that are way off the map. As someone who has observed the operation of imperialism in the Balkans, the Andes, and the Middle East from direct experience I can say that the people supporting the intervention are echoing the views of neoliberal elites in Third World countries and that the majority of Third World peoples know who the enemy is - the USA, France, Britain, and their various satrapies. \r\n\r\nNow the real tragedy of Liberia is that the elections scheduled for October have effectively been cancelled until late 2005\/early 2006. Instead an unelected 'transitional council' has been imposed on the country, in the classic formula of post-war 'peacebuilding' regimes imposed by the USA. The contras of the LURD - if you want to see murderous thugs, just view the AP raw footage of what these guys have been doing in their neck of the woods - are now being embedded into the governance structures of Liberia, even though they have barely any popular legitimacy given that they were trained as a brutal killing machine and little more.\r\n\r\nThe government will be run by a "Chairman" and a vice-Chairman - with obvious shades of corporate governance structures - and the elected Parliament and the country's Supreme Court and constitution will be sidelined in the process. Going along with the 'corporate' theme of the post-Taylor order in Liberia, newsreports coming from Accra, where peace talks are being held indicate that the new Chairman of transitional authority will be a Liberian businessman.\r\n\r\nThe two year election delay is designed to give the new government a space to dissolve the parliament, purge the judiciary, establish control over the media, incorporate US-trained operatives into the security services, and impose neoliberals in the ministries of finance, the economy, trade, etc. (as per post-war models in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor, Solomon Islands, etc, etc.)\r\n\r\nThis is also the same model used and imposed on the DR Congo, where the genocidal butchers of the RCD-Goma and MLC have been given key posts in government under intense pressure exerted upon the government in Kinshasa by Western governemnts. \r\n\r\nFor all those who believe in the 'humanitarian' motives of Western countries in Africa, I can only say you're severly deluded. Just consider the following record that the West has established since 1997:\r\n\r\n- backed a coup to depose democratically elected Lissouba government in the Republic of Congo (Brazzaville) and continued support for the Sassou-Nguesso dictatorship that has taken its place\r\n\r\n- support for the brutal regime of Ange Felix Patasse in the Central African Republic\r\n\r\n- backing for the dictatorship of Yoweri Museveni in Uganda (which has carried out a brutal counter-insurgency in the norht and west of the country and has been implicated in the Congolese genocide and the plunder of its resources, as well as the destabilization of southern Sudan)\r\n\r\n- backing the dictatorship of Paul Kagame (who's RPA has carried out the worst attrocities in the occupied Kivu provinces of the Congo, and has done everything to crush the indigenous Mai-Mai resistance - while imposing a fascistic\/militaristic police state over Rwanda)\r\n\r\n- supported the brutal ECOMOG intervention forces in West Africa, the Kamajor militias in Sierra Leone (who were equal to the RUF in ferocity), the brutal Conte regime in Guinea and the jingoistic, xenophobic and chauvinist governments of Ivory Coast\r\n\r\n- support for the neoliberal regime in Ethiopia which rules by terror over the Ogaden and Oromo inhabited regions and has carried out depradations against neighboring Somalia and Eritrea\r\n\r\n- support the one-party state in Eritrea (which has given the US vital listening posts in the red sea area) and has been a vital regional ally for Israel\r\n\r\n- continued to fuel the war in Angola\r\n\r\n- supported the proxy armies in the DR Congo and the pliant neoliberal 'opposition' in the country that collaborated with the occupation forces (remember 3.3 millinon peopel have died in this conflict, overwhelmingly victims of hte US-backed occupation of the eastern DRC)\r\n\r\n- material support for the LURD\r\n\r\n- backing the dictatorship in Mauritania, which recently crushed a popular revolt against its support for the war in Iraq\r\n\r\n- backing the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt\r\n\r\n- backing the fascistic regime in Morocco and selling out the Western Sahara liberation movement (denying Saharawis their right to self-determination)\r\n\r\n- destabilizing the Zimbabwean government to protect the interests of a racist white-settler elite and squeezing it economically (including the use of food aid as a weapon) in order to remove the democratically elected head of state - in elections ratified by most world governments, including the whole Non-Aligned Movement - and to secure Zimbabwe's withdrawal for the DRC (where Zimbabwe was invited to stop the Rwandan-Ugandan aggression)\r\n\r\n- backed the minority putschist regime of Pierre Buyoya in Burundi which has killed hundreds of thousands in order to preserve the rule of an extremists Tutsi military faction over the whole country (after disposing of the democratically elected government in 1996)\r\n\r\n- backed the brutal Obasanjo regime, who's forces have killed, tortured and imprisoned thousands in the Niger river delta for protesting oil exploitation and environmental dessication (and who recently stole an election and crushed national strike with lethal force against unarmed demonstrators)\r\n\r\n- backed the corrupt government's of Zambia, Kenya, Tanzania, Swaziland, Togo etc., etc., etc.\r\n\r\nThe list can keep going. But you get the picture. The real problem in 'Africa' - adn the global South in general - is not the fact that the West hasn't intervened enough, but that it continues to consistently intervene in order to prop-up the most retrograde forces in our (meaning Southern) societies that are more than happy to serve their imperial interests. For those supporting Western intervention here in the North, you ahve to realize that you are simply supporting the brutally racist and militaristic status quo and only ensuring that hte right of African peoples to meaningful self-determination is further suppressed. Some of you are simply deluded by corporate propaganda that has sold you on the 'humanitarian' side of imperialism - nothing new there, if you look into the discourses of 19th century imperialism - or has played to residual 'Christian morality', but others are jst simply sick ass racist f*cks and imperialist nostalgics...\r\n\r\nTo a world without racism and fascism!\r\n\r\ncheers!\r\nKafka \r\n \r\n","author":"Kafka","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-23 11:18:32","modified":"2003-08-23 11:18:32","fileurl":""},{"id":78587,"heading":"Killing Democracy in Liberia","article":"First off I want to thank Chekhov for his lucid well thought out posts. Definately better than the filler material on the IMC front-page, which sounded like the Lib-humanitarian interventionist jargon we've been getting out of some US, Canadian and British media outlets. \r\n\r\nI agree that its not worth dialoguing with the racists and pro-imperialists on the list. They simply function from assumptions that are way off the map. As someone who has observed the operation of imperialism in the Balkans, the Andes, and the Middle East from direct experience I can say that the people supporting the intervention are echoing the views of neoliberal elites in Third World countries and that the majority of Third World peoples know who the enemy is - the USA, France, Britain, and their various satrapies. \r\n\r\nNow the real tragedy of Liberia is that the elections scheduled for October have effectively been cancelled until late 2005\/early 2006. Instead an unelected 'transitional council' has been imposed on the country, in the classic formula of post-war 'peacebuilding' regimes imposed by the USA. The contras of the LURD - if you want to see murderous thugs, just view the AP raw footage of what these guys have been doing in their neck of the woods - are now being embedded into the governance structures of Liberia, even though they have barely any popular legitimacy given that they were trained as a brutal killing machine and little more.\r\n\r\nThe government will be run by a "Chairman" and a vice-Chairman - with obvious shades of corporate governance structures - and the elected Parliament and the country's Supreme Court and constitution will be sidelined in the process. Going along with the 'corporate' theme of the post-Taylor order in Liberia, newsreports coming from Accra, where peace talks are being held indicate that the new Chairman of transitional authority will be a Liberian businessman.\r\n\r\nThe two year election delay is designed to give the new government a space to dissolve the parliament, purge the judiciary, establish control over the media, incorporate US-trained operatives into the security services, and impose neoliberals in the ministries of finance, the economy, trade, etc. (as per post-war models in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor, Solomon Islands, etc, etc.)\r\n\r\nThis is also the same model used and imposed on the DR Congo, where the genocidal butchers of the RCD-Goma and MLC have been given key posts in government under intense pressure exerted upon the government in Kinshasa by Western governemnts. \r\n\r\nFor all those who believe in the 'humanitarian' motives of Western countries in Africa, I can only say you're severly deluded. Just consider the following record that the West has established since 1997:\r\n\r\n- backed a coup to depose democratically elected Lissouba government in the Republic of Congo (Brazzaville) and continued support for the Sassou-Nguesso dictatorship that has taken its place\r\n\r\n- support for the brutal regime of Ange Felix Patasse in the Central African Republic\r\n\r\n- backing for the dictatorship of Yoweri Museveni in Uganda (which has carried out a brutal counter-insurgency in the norht and west of the country and has been implicated in the Congolese genocide and the plunder of its resources, as well as the destabilization of southern Sudan)\r\n\r\n- backing the dictatorship of Paul Kagame (who's RPA has carried out the worst attrocities in the occupied Kivu provinces of the Congo, and has done everything to crush the indigenous Mai-Mai resistance - while imposing a fascistic\/militaristic police state over Rwanda)\r\n\r\n- supported the brutal ECOMOG intervention forces in West Africa, the Kamajor militias in Sierra Leone (who were equal to the RUF in ferocity), the brutal Conte regime in Guinea and the jingoistic, xenophobic and chauvinist governments of Ivory Coast\r\n\r\n- support for the neoliberal regime in Ethiopia which rules by terror over the Ogaden and Oromo inhabited regions and has carried out depradations against neighboring Somalia and Eritrea\r\n\r\n- support the one-party state in Eritrea (which has given the US vital listening posts in the red sea area) and has been a vital regional ally for Israel\r\n\r\n- continued to fuel the war in Angola\r\n\r\n- supported the proxy armies in the DR Congo and the pliant neoliberal 'opposition' in the country that collaborated with the occupation forces (remember 3.3 millinon peopel have died in this conflict, overwhelmingly victims of hte US-backed occupation of the eastern DRC)\r\n\r\n- material support for the LURD\r\n\r\n- backing the dictatorship in Mauritania, which recently crushed a popular revolt against its support for the war in Iraq\r\n\r\n- backing the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt\r\n\r\n- backing the fascistic regime in Morocco and selling out the Western Sahara liberation movement (denying Saharawis their right to self-determination)\r\n\r\n- destabilizing the Zimbabwean government to protect the interests of a racist white-settler elite and squeezing it economically (including the use of food aid as a weapon) in order to remove the democratically elected head of state - in elections ratified by most world governments, including the whole Non-Aligned Movement - and to secure Zimbabwe's withdrawal for the DRC (where Zimbabwe was invited to stop the Rwandan-Ugandan aggression)\r\n\r\n- backed the minority putschist regime of Pierre Buyoya in Burundi which has killed hundreds of thousands in order to preserve the rule of an extremists Tutsi military faction over the whole country (after disposing of the democratically elected government in 1996)\r\n\r\n- backed the brutal Obasanjo regime, who's forces have killed, tortured and imprisoned thousands in the Niger river delta for protesting oil exploitation and environmental dessication (and who recently stole an election and crushed national strike with lethal force against unarmed demonstrators)\r\n\r\n- backed the corrupt government's of Zambia, Kenya, Tanzania, Swaziland, Togo etc., etc., etc.\r\n\r\nThe list can keep going. But you get the picture. The real problem in 'Africa' - adn the global South in general - is not the fact that the West hasn't intervened enough, but that it continues to consistently intervene in order to prop-up the most retrograde forces in our (meaning Southern) societies that are more than happy to serve their imperial interests. For those supporting Western intervention here in the North, you ahve to realize that you are simply supporting the brutally racist and militaristic status quo and only ensuring that hte right of African peoples to meaningful self-determination is further suppressed. Some of you are simply deluded by corporate propaganda that has sold you on the 'humanitarian' side of imperialism - nothing new there, if you look into the discourses of 19th century imperialism - or has played to residual 'Christian morality', but others are jst simply sick ass racist f*cks and imperialist nostalgics...\r\n\r\nTo a world without racism and fascism!\r\n\r\ncheers!\r\nKafka \r\n \r\n","author":"Kafka","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-23 11:18:35","modified":"2003-08-23 11:18:35","fileurl":""},{"id":78591,"heading":"Confederate Staes of America","article":""We cannot oppose the "war" in Iraq, and then support "intervention" or worse, "humanitarian intervention" in Liberia."\r\n\r\nWhere you you people in 1860 when you could have been useful?","author":"NBF","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-23 11:45:16","modified":"2003-08-23 11:45:16","fileurl":""},{"id":78592,"heading":"Confederate States of America","article":""We cannot oppose the "war" in Iraq, and then support "intervention" or worse, "humanitarian intervention" in Liberia." \r\n\r\nWhere were you people in 1860 when you could have been useful?\r\n","author":"NBF","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-23 11:46:22","modified":"2003-08-23 11:46:22","fileurl":""},{"id":78716,"heading":"ahah","article":"just for starters.. are you saying "poor mugabe in zimbabwae"?\r\nthat goes to show how you must be viewing all the other conflicts.\r\nYou know if you get kicked off your land as a settler the worst suffering isnt yours - you probably have a little money left - the worst is your employees (who are "collaborators") and the people your farm was going to feed. As If I have to argue based on some racist principle where only some races have rights...\r\n\r\nAnd we know why the rwandan problem exists (in the rwandan region of africa) its because some morons decided NOT to get involved........... basically what you seem to be advocating.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-24 19:52:08","modified":"2003-08-24 19:52:08","fileurl":""},{"id":78734,"heading":"The French","article":"France is alleged to have supplied Sassou-Nguesso in his fight to take over control from Liboussa in Congo-Brazzaville. Once Sassou-Nguesso took power, royalties on the earnings of the Elf OIl Company were cut by 50%.","author":"Burningfeet","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-24 22:22:18","modified":"2003-08-24 22:22:18","fileurl":""},{"id":78874,"heading":"LURD massacres Liberians, World moves on to next needed 'regime change'....","article":"Scottie,\r\n\r\nWake up dude! The issue is and never has been Mugabe. He was all good and fine for the British and US elites when the Matabeleland massacres where being carried out by his troops in the mid-1980s. But then suddenly the old boy starts yielding to pressures from below to resolve the Land Question - which the British had promised to resolve under the terms of the Landcaster House agreements - and the whole 'international community' (read Britain and the USA) goes into a tizzy. \r\n\r\nFact is that far more print and tv time has been spent on the deaths of white-settlers on Zimbabwe than all the victims of the Congolese genocide. IF this isn't a racist double-standard I don't know what is. If you're so blind as to completely ignore the land question in your discussion of Zimbabwe and adopt the racist discourses of the Commercial Farmers' Union then be my guest, but please don't pretend you know anything other than what you're told by the hard-hitting alternative journalism of CNN and BBC.\r\n\r\nYou employ the logic of the sick imperialists and neo-fascists running this world when you reduce the problems of an entire country\/region to the misdeeds of a few bad leaders in the said country\/region...where the 'obvious' solution then simply becomes 'regime change' in favor of more obediant leaders who will obediantly shake hands with the West and set things straight. \r\n\r\nIts easy to screw history, global economics, power relations, etc. in your analysis when you live in a world of privilege created from the blood of others. Its good that you know what Southern peoples really want, its true, we're all yearning for the cold steal of an imperialist bayonette at our throats telling us what to do. How we all miss the day's of the White Man's Burden, please bring back your Marines to save us hapless vicitims of our own self-created chaos! Give me a break!\r\n\r\nThe fact that the Non-Aligned Movement voted to ratify the elections in Zimbabwe and condemn the sanctions imposed on it by Western creditors is inconsiquential to you. The fact that Zimbabwe has been starved of food aid and credits, doesn't matter either. \r\n\r\nNo. You 'know' the 'truth' because you've been told by CNN and BBC that its all Mugabe's fault! You're such a genius! And yes, you're right, the workers on the farms have suffered a great deal. But it guess what, it wasn't the ZANU-PF that oppressed them...Or are you so deluded by your racist discourse that you believe the myth in how well they were treated by their white "Master" that you think that all the workers on the farms are crying crocadile tears now that their oppressors are gone???\r\n\r\nAnd yes of course, the West didn't 'intervene' in Rwanda and that's why the mess was caused, right? Forget that the French supplied the genocidal Habyarimana regime with weapons to the very end, or that the USA backed the aggressive RPF, which has since staged a genocide in the eastern DRC and is now in the process of 'democratically' stealing elections....Learn some history guy other than that spoonfed to you by crappy journalists and the books based on their works...\r\n\r\nAs for Liberia, we can see that the situation is much better now that the West intervened. Thank god that Taylor is out, now there's so much more 'peace' through large-scale massacres and 'democracry' through cancelled elections and an externally appointed 'Chairman' to lead the government...\r\n\r\nMonday August 25, 9:07 PM \r\nUp to a thousand villagers feared killed in Liberian massacre\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/sg.news.yahoo.com\/030825\/1\/3dn95.html \r\n\r\n(AFP) - Many civilians were killed and villages torched in a massacre in Nimba county northeast of Monrovia, a senior Liberian military official told AFP.\r\n\r\n"I have received a report from our security officers that many villages there had burned down and that there have been lots of massacres," said General Benjamin Yeaten, deputy head of the government army.\r\n\r\n"My understanding is that there was a massacre but we are not exactly sure how many people have been killed, it could be a hundred, it could be a thousand," he added, without saying who the perpetrators were.\r\n\r\nHe did say that the two main rebel groups in the country, Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy (LURD) and the Movement for Democracy in Liberia (MODEL), had carried out attacks in Nimba in recent days.\r\n\r\nCiting a witness who had fled the assault at Bahn, in Nimba, 250 kilometres (150 miles) northeast of the capital Monrovia, local public radio reported that MODEL rebels had stormed the town, opening fire on the local population before disappearing back into the surrounding forest.\r\n\r\nThe attack left a thousand people dead, the witness said.\r\n\r\n"Our information is sketchy. We know there are fightings in the area, both LURD and MODEL. LURD is fighting in Bong county and MODEL fighting in Nimba, so it's difficult to know who is who," said information minister Reginald Goodridge.\r\n\r\nThere has been sporadic fighting since the government, MODEL and LURD signed an accord on August 18 to put an end to 14 years of nearly uninterrupted civil war in Liberia.\r\n\r\nThousands of Liberians fled fighting south of Monrovia Sunday after reports of skirmishes between rebels and government forces.\r\n\r\nRoss Mountain, the UN special humanitarian coordinator in Liberia, said up to 10,000 people were on the move after reports of fighting near Harbel, 65 kilometres (40 miles) south of Monrovia on the road to Buchanan.\r\n\r\nBuchanan, the country's second port city, has been under the control of Liberia's second rebel group MODEL, since the end of July.\r\n\r\nMeanwhile, the main rebel group LURD urged the international community to put pressure on troops still loyal to exiled president Taylor to pull out of Monrovia to allow humanitarian agencies to work in the capital.\r\n\r\nLURD also accused the government fighters of violating a ceasefire agreement by allegedly infiltrating the lines of peacekeepers and arresting LURD soldiers.\r\n\r\nTaylor stepped down earlier this month and agreed to leave the country for exile in Nigeria, bowing to international pressure.\r\n \r\n","author":"Kafka","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-26 12:05:34","modified":"2003-08-26 12:05:34","fileurl":""},{"id":78880,"heading":"Kafka","article":"I refuse to wake up. I'm happier being a brainwashed moron.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-26 12:10:43","modified":"2003-08-26 12:10:43","fileurl":""},{"id":78882,"heading":"^","article":"On the other hand, others who would call me a brain-washed moron do so because they are unable to refute my postings. They are also frustrated from losing all the time. Look past them for they are not important at all. The rest of the world does.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-26 12:13:41","modified":"2003-08-26 12:13:41","fileurl":""},{"id":80131,"heading":"IT IS PARTLY A MUST","article":"I AM CARTER A LIBERIAN WHO IS PRESENTLY DWELLING IN LIBERIA.PERTAINING TO USA INTERVENTION IN LIBERIA ,I REFERTO IT AS A MUST.THE FACT IS THAT ,THE USA IS THE POLICE OF THE WORLD AND IS THEREFORE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DISTABILIZATION IN ANY COUNTRY FOR THAT MATTER.THEY SHOULD NOT LOOK FOR ONLY COUNTRIES THAT THEY CAN BENEFIT FROM AFTER ASSISTANCE RENDER TO THAT COUNTRY.\r\nIN LIBERIA AND USA RELATION MOST PEOPLE CAN SAY THAT THE USA IS MORE CLOSER TO LIBERIA THAN ANY DEVELOPED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD,IN THIS VIEW USA SHOULD TAKE LIBERIA AS HERS ,THOUGH NOT COLONIZED BY HER ,BUT IT WAS THROUGH HER INFLUENCE THAT LIBERIA BECAME A COUNTRY ON HER OWN.INFACT AMERICA HAS INSTALIZATIONS IN LIBERIA,LIKE THE OMEGA TOWEL,VOA,EMBASSY,FIRESTONE RUBBER COMPANY,WOOD COMPANY,TO NAME BUT A FEW.DON'T YOU THINK THAT THESE BUSINESSES NEED SECURITY? OFCOUSE THEY DO.NOW WITH AMERICA TOTALLY INVOLVE INTO LIBERIAN AFFAIRS,THERE ARE OTHER NATURAL RESOURCES THAT LIBERIA HAS AND THE USA CAN TAKE THE CONTRACT TO MAKE THEM INTO TANGIBLE GOODS AND BY SO DOING THEY CAN NOW BENEFIT FOR THEIR GREAT ASSISTANCE FROM THIS LITTLE COUNTRY OF OURS.\r\nWE NEED YOU A M E R I C A . THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF LEARNT LIBERIANS IN THE AMERICA DOING CASUAL LABOUR,SOME ARE INVOLVED IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES,OTHERS ARE JUST NOT WORKING SIMPLY BECAUSE THEIR COUNTRY IS AT WAR AND WITH AMERICA COMING IN WE LIBERIANS BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL BE A TOTAL END TO OUR LONG LASTED CIVIL WAR.ON THE HAND,THE USA WILL BE PARTLY CLEANING HERSELF OF CRIME AND ALSO CAUSE MORE JOBS TO BE AVAILABLE.","author":"CARTER J. DRAPER","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-30 14:21:32","modified":"2003-08-30 14:21:32","fileurl":""},{"id":80137,"heading":"Carter...","article":"You got any brothers or sisters over there you'd like to sell to me? I need some slaves to work my plantation...","author":"slave master","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-30 14:26:07","modified":"2003-08-30 14:26:07","fileurl":""},{"id":80138,"heading":"Scottie","article":"Yes, I am unable to refute your postings.","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-30 14:26:21","modified":"2003-08-30 14:26:21","fileurl":""},{"id":80139,"heading":"slave master","article":"Are you coming to the KKK rally tonight? Trent Lott will be there!","author":"nonanarchist","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-30 14:27:01","modified":"2003-08-30 14:27:01","fileurl":""},{"id":80231,"heading":"Youve been reading the news on acid","article":""Wake up dude! The issue is and never has been Mugabe. He was all good and fine for the British and US elites"\r\n\r\nMoral judgements should not depend upon what "eletes" say.... So why do yours?\r\n\r\n"Fact is that far more print and tv time has been spent on the deaths of white-settlers on Zimbabwe than all the victims of the Congolese genocide. IF this isn't a racist double-standard I don't know what is."\r\n\r\nBy the way black peopel are suffering from mugabe also. It is not just a black vs white situation as if that makes any difference morraly to anyone here other than you. Because Congo is a worse situation than zimbabwae does not make zimbabwae a "good situation" besides what does "media attention" matter? the world comunity has been pretty impotent on both issues.\r\n\r\n" If you're so blind as to completely ignore the land question in your discussion of Zimbabwe and adopt the racist discourses of the Commercial Farmers' Union then be my guest"\r\n\r\nFeel free to explain the land issue without refering to "race" if you cant then yours is the racist position.\r\n\r\n"You employ the logic of the sick imperialists and neo-fascists running this world when you reduce the problems of an entire country\/region to the misdeeds of a few bad leaders in the said country\/region.."\r\n\r\nNo they have lots of problems. Mugabe just happens to be one of them.\r\n\r\n"Its easy to screw history, global economics, power relations, etc. in your analysis when you live in a world of privilege created from the blood of others."\r\n\r\nIt is easy for you (or chomsky etc) to screw history global economics and power relations etc too .. and you do.\r\n\r\n"The fact that the Non-Aligned Movement voted to ratify the elections in Zimbabwe and condemn the sanctions imposed on it by Western creditors is inconsiquential to you."\r\n\r\nPracticallly - NAM is powerless\r\nMorally - NAM is a mixture of all sorts of moraly repugnant groups and people with vested interests and as such does not hold any particular moral high ground.\r\n\r\n"No. You 'know' the 'truth' because you've been told by CNN and BBC that its all Mugabe's fault!"\r\n\r\nYou seem to be under the impression that because thee is another reason (such as a natural period of bad harvests) that that would mean that it cant be mugabes fault and the fact that the US opposes him means that his election must have been fair..\r\n\r\n" You're such a genius! "\r\n\r\nwell as it happens...\r\n\r\n"But it guess what, it wasn't the ZANU-PF that oppressed them..."\r\n\r\nHave you seen interviews with previous farm workers in zimbabwae? or have you jsut been eading zanu pf propoganda? Yes the whites were better off than the blacks on average. Yes some blacks probably resented that but the farm workers are not the ones who benifit from the process on the whole since it is a political process.\r\n\r\n"And yes of course, the West didn't 'intervene' in Rwanda and that's why the mess was caused, right?"\r\n\r\nYES\r\n\r\n" Forget that the French supplied the genocidal Habyarimana regime with weapons to the very end"\r\n\r\nHmm that is a black mark .. feel free to prove it.\r\n\r\n"or that the USA backed the aggressive RPF"\r\n\r\nDUH! they also backed the agressive soviets in the war against the AXIS.. \r\nYou really need to stop and think before you type.\r\n\r\n"which has since staged a genocide in the eastern DRC"\r\n\r\nThe are like all the other people in the world who you would forsake. They couldn't wait for you to guarantee their saftey so they did it by themselves. "vigilantee justice" is more violent and less fair than police justice.\r\n\r\n"As for Liberia, we can see that the situation is much better now that the West intervened."\r\n\r\nWest intervened? they sent a handful of trups in to acompany the nigerians. but its better than nothing. ","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-31 07:02:19","modified":"2003-08-31 07:02:19","fileurl":""},{"id":80340,"heading":"On the other hand...","article":"I actually believe in the existence of a supreme being, so what do I know? Not a whole hell of a lot!","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-01 15:53:07","modified":"2003-09-01 15:53:07","fileurl":""},{"id":80373,"heading":"fake scottie","article":"What do you mean by that?\r\nAbnd it what way would it be relevant?","author":"Scottie","parent_id":75503,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-09-01 18:13:06","modified":"2003-09-01 18:13:06","fileurl":""}]}