{"article":{"id":73420,"heading":"Why are White Supremacists flocking to "Libertarianism"?","author":"Annetta I. Birlari","created":"2003-07-20 20:33:19","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:03","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:24:03","article":"

Why are White Supremacists flocking to \"Libertarianism\"?

Annetta I. Birlari

The items that follow are horrific to most human beings, but are presented here to increase awareness to a growing problem within the diverse community of libertarians. White Supremacists see a harmonic convergence between many of their ideals and the mantra of \"individuality trumps community\" by many free-market-libertarians.

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from \"You Might Be an Anti-Semite If...\"

by \"Newz\" Numberman

http:\/\/www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com\/vnn\/showEssay.asp?essayID=1266<\/a>

White nationalists are not \"haters,\" \"evil,\" \"monsters,\" or \"fringe lunatics.\" The only difference between a White nationalist and a white republican, or a white democrat, or a white libertarian, or a white socialist, etc., etc., is that we White nationalists are not afraid to choose politically incorrect SELF-DEFENSE over capitulation: we choose to FIGHT!

And we do so knowing that in spite of the odds, and in spite of the demonizing, and all the rest of what is pawned off as political culture, our Cause is only viewed so pejoratively because those whom we resist, the ZIONIST usurpers, control every avenue of mass communication, exercise predominant influence at all levels of government (but especially the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT) and use said influence to frame every conceivable issue in such a way that the debate is over before it even begins.

In the name of the Creator, read the writings of the AMERICAN FOUNDERS. Employ your own senses of logic, proportionality and Reason. Is what we White nationalists advocate really so outrageous? or farfetched? or outlandish? Are we truly the only ones capable of perceiving the historical trajectory of the once great and proud American nation? Hackneyed though it is to say, the Emperor has no clothes, and it is about goddamned time we stood up and said it.

White nationalists, like it or not, represent the founding spirit of the United States. We are the real conservatives. If GEORGE WASHINGTON and THOMAS JEFFERSON, et al., were to claw their way out of their graves, the first thing they'd do is start another REVOLUTION. But they're not here anymore; so it's up to us. Why is it that clean, safe White neighborhoods, schools, culture etc., are held out to be the socio-political equivalent of Satanism? Why does every law seem to be geared with our demise in mind? Why are we systematically DENIED EVERY RIGHT AND PRIVILEGE and privilege that defines a free people, rights and privileges that we had in this country not all that long ago, rights and privileges that all other peoples of humanity either possess or unabashedly pursue? If you've never thought about such things, maybe itz about time you did.

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Sadly, some libertarians themselves speak of the \"multi-culturalism\" is sharply negative terms, thereby enticing further those seduced by hatred.

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from \"A Libertarian Looks at Columbus Day\"

by Alan Turin, LewRockwell.com

http:\/\/www.lewrockwell.com\/turin\/turin20.html<\/a>

...MULTICULTURAL complaints that European civilization is judgmental, linear, exclusionary and prejudiced contra American aboriginals being non-judgmental, non-linear, inclusive and free of prejudice is incoherent enough to fit into todayâ??s academy.

...MULTICULTURALISM: the art of being wrong, all the time, in everything.



from \"Libertarianism wins widespread praise in 1997\"

by National LP Headquarters, January 23, 1998

\"Big government\/welfare-state liberals and statist\/religious-right conservatives mirror each other in supporting the use of government to ensure their own vision of a good society, whether that means demanding adherence to 'traditional' values or mandating MULTICULTURAL political correctness. Libertarianism offers a third ALTERNATIVE, and one that is more in keeping with the vision of the future that free men and women have always aspired to.\"-- Stephen H. Miller

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The end result of this fatal attraction has already been felt in local politics. So please do be careful - not all libertarians have noble intentions.

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from \"Ex-official drops out of Aryan group\"

by Associated Press, July 18, 2003

http:\/\/www.nj.com\/news\/ledger\/jersey\/index.ssf?\/base\/news-4\/1058508677215580.xml<\/a>

A former Hopewell Borough councilman who resigned last week after his membership in a national WHITE SUPREMACIST group became public has now quit the group.

Marc Moran, 43, said he would no longer be associated with the National Alliance, a West Virginia group that promotes SEGREGATIONIST living and ARYAN values. Moran was appointed to fill a vacant council seat on July 3, but the lifelong Hopewell resident served for less than two weeks before resigning on Saturday.

Moran, who denies being a racist or an anti-Semite, said he joined the National Alliance because he agreed with its views on illegal immigration and CIVIL LIBERTIES. However, he now only has harsh words for the organization and says he is ashamed he did not fully investigate the group.

\"I took my membership card and I put it in an envelope and I mailed it back to them. I'm done,\" Moran said. \"The things (about the group) I disagree with far outweigh the things I do agree with.\"

Moran had written several essays -- many of which DENOUNCED CULTUTRAL DIVERSITY and immigration -- that that were posted on the Internet. The most recent essay was posted in December 2002.<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":""If George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, et al., were to claw their way out of their graves, the first thing they'd do is start another revolution." -- from a "White Nationalist" ","numcomment":31,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/07\/73420.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":73502,"heading":"Good thinking from Vermont","article":"Re: Why are White Supremacists flocking to\r\nby Ethan Mitchell\r\n20 Jul 2003\r\n\r\nAmerican Libertarianism has its intellectual roots largely in the social Darwinists and industrial apologists of the late 19th century. A staple feature of this writing is "edging up to" the idea that some undesirable element of the population should be rounded up and killed. Andy Adams, for example, in "The Inhumanity of Socialism," essentially says that it would be great if we could euthanize everyone on welfare, but, well, let's talk about that later.\r\n\r\nIt is slightly unfair to say that this was a white supremacist position. Clearly, however, it overlapped with the aims of white supremacists, and the literature of social Darwinism fed largely into Nationalist and Racialist propaganda of the early 20th century (e.g. the Klan and the Nazis).\r\n\r\nSince the 1940s, there are no important political parties who will risk advocating genocide. But we have seen a return to Andy Adams "well, let's talk about that later." A good deal of Libertarian literature openly advocates for an aristocracy of property owners (e.g.http:\/\/www.mises.org\/journals\/jls\/11_2\/11_2_3.pdf) And most libertarian discussions of poverty end by saying that if people are too shiftless to work, that's their own problem. (This from a party who's national platform includes not only abolishing welfare but also privatizing the air, so we're not talking about much of a safety net.)\r\n\r\nCertainly many libertarians honestly believe that in unfettered corporate capitalism, there would be no poverty. Many others believe that their would be an impoverished class, and that they should go die quietly, but do not attach a racial value to that scenario.\r\n\r\nBut...understandably...many libertarians also associate poverty with color. Mexicans would seem to be the major target right now. And for some, undoubtedly, the notion of an aristocracy that lets the peasants die is much more appealing when the aristocracy is white and the peasants are brown.\r\n\r\nNow. Perhaps those sentiments represent only a small minority of the LP, particularly here in Vermont. I do not claim otherwise. If the VLP has any political sense, though, it must realize that it is steering close to fascism, and it must find a way to truly disassociate itself from the Andy Adams of the world.","author":"reader","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-21 15:35:53","modified":"2003-07-21 15:35:53","fileurl":""},{"id":73536,"heading":"Libertarian masturbation","article":"alex\r\n\r\nIf capitalism were crushed and corporations stripped of the rights which should be reserved only for humans, I'd be more sympathetic to Libertarianism. As it stands currently, though, our rights are being compromised as much by big business as government. Monsanto certainly believes we have a right to know about the food we eat or even the right to save seed if we grow our own. Water supplies the world over are being privatized, thereby preventing the poorest from having access to what has been established as a basic human right. Labor organizers are killed throughout the world, apparently preventing workers from exercising their right to organize.\r\n\r\nLibertarian masturbation might seem sexy to you but I find it more pathetic and disgusting. Heaven knows, I wouldn't stop you from enjoying yourself, though. Wank away. ","author":"alex","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-21 18:23:27","modified":"2003-07-21 18:23:27","fileurl":""},{"id":73648,"heading":"As always I would point out the simple fact...","article":"...that Libertarianism is not a monolithic viewpoint.\r\n\r\nAll of the articles cited above have one common logical fallacy:\r\n\r\nThey treat the beliefs and actions of some as though they represented the viewpoint of many or all. And that is simply not true. The Lunatic Fringe infests every movement in some form.\r\n\r\nFurther you run into the usual fallacy of equating the Crony Capitalism of the United States with Free Market Capitalism. The two are to each other as the Mob is to Elliot Ness.\r\n\r\nNo one is a bigger opponent of the false assignment of Personhood to a business entity than I. I have made repeated posts establishing my opposition yet I am a Libertarian.\r\n\r\nIn a truly Free Society you have the right to be wrong as long as you do not act so as to injure another. Thus you have the right to be a racist, which I personally believe to be not only wrong but insane, but you do not have the right to act on that belief so as to injure another. In a Free Society you can think and say any damn thing you want, but you are not free to act upon it.\r\n\r\nA belief in the worth and dignity of the individual does not make of one a Social Darwinist.\r\n\r\nBecause someone who preaches hate claims to be a something does not make all members of that group of like mind.\r\n\r\nThe True Roots of modern Libertarianism can be found in the writings of Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, John Stuart Mill, John Locke, and others who have championed the worth and dignity of the free individual.\r\n\r\nAnd such is not a selfish self centered view it is rather an expansive view that desires, and defends freedom for all.\r\n\r\n"I swear before the Altar of Almighty God Eternal Enmity towards all forms of tyranny over the mind of man."\r\n----- Thomas Jefferson","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-22 02:32:03","modified":"2003-07-22 02:32:03","fileurl":""},{"id":73665,"heading":"You haven't thought this through...","article":"Should a car owner have the right to drive while intoxicated?\r\n\r\nShould a gun owner have the right to fire his weapon in public if no one is injured?\r\n\r\nShould a smoker have the right to puff a cigarette in crowded bar?\r\n\r\nShould a 14 year-old have the right to be a prostitute?\r\n\r\nShould a citizen have a right to clean water without first having to sue corporations in order to maintain that right?","author":"libertarians are selfish and spiteful","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-22 05:59:03","modified":"2003-07-22 05:59:03","fileurl":""},{"id":73696,"heading":"I have thought it through which is why I am a Libertarian.","article":"I that basically all of your questions are answered in my first post simply by applying the basic principle sensibly. One of the problems you get into in discussing a governmental form is that we all share a common history of Government behaving in a manner which would earn an individual the title of fool.\r\n\r\nHowever let\u2019s examine your points one by one and see what we might make of them.\r\n\r\n\u201cShould a car owner have the right to drive while intoxicated? \u201c\r\n\r\nNo one has the right to put other people\u2019s lives at risk. When you drive under the influence of an intoxicant you are by definition intoxicated, thus operating at an impaired level, thus making you a dangerous driver. You have the right to drink yourself sick but you do not have the right, in a free society, to injure another or threaten injury to another. When you drive intoxicated you are threatening injury to another by your individual irresponsibility. Twenty Lashes in the Public Square would I think not be too extreme (just joking - lighten up).\r\n\r\n\u201cShould a gun owner have the right to fire his weapon in public if no one is injured?\u201d \r\n\r\nInsufficient Data. Is this a Shooting Meet? What are the exact Circumstances? As a general rule commonsense would say no. Again, putting other people at risk of death or injury, you cannot, even in a truly free Society, put other people at risk by your actions. If it was an inappropriate location, say a crowded Mall, a thorough drubbing might be in order. However, the assumption implicit in your question is that people behave irresponsibly when left free to do so. That is only true for a very small minority of \u201cidjits\u201d. The rest of us have the right, in maintaining a free, but orderly, society to restrain such morons and \u201cshow them the error of their ways\u201d. That\u2019s why we have all those morons in the \u201ccute\u201d County Provided \u201cWork Clothes\u201d picking up trash - they were not able to behave as responsible adults.\r\n\r\n\u201cShould a smoker have the right to puff a cigarette in crowded bar?\u201d \r\n\r\nFree association means you can come or go as you choose. To be in a Bar is a VOLUNTARY act. No one is forcing you to be there. No one forced you to go there, and no one is forcing you to stay. If you don\u2019t like patronizing a Bar that allows Smoking then don\u2019t. Go to one that does not allow Smoking. If you insist upon Patronizing a Bar that allows Smoking then by remaining you have given your implicit consent.\r\n\r\n\u201cShould a 14 year-old have the right to be a prostitute?\u201d \r\n\r\nSomewhat tougher as it touches upon 2 very sensitive issues: Children, and Sex. Both are hot button subjects. It is as much a Moral Question as it is a Legal Question. On the Moral Portion I, as an individual, find the prospect abhorrent and would oppose it. To prevent such is why we have shelters for children and laws to prevent their exploitation. On the Philosophic level comes the question: At what point is an individual old enough, and mature enough, to make their own mistakes? A minor child does not traditionally have the same rights as an adult because the presumption is that they must be, protected, and educated, until they are \u201cof age\u201d where they are allowed to destroy their own life with stupid choices. The short answer is: NO. At 14 a person is approaching young adulthood but is not there yet. Although, frankly I have met a few 14 year olds who were more mature than \u201cpresumed\u201d adults many years their senior.\r\n\r\n\u201cShould a citizen have a right to clean water without first having to sue corporations in order to maintain that right?\u201d\r\n\r\nLet us turn this around and put it in the proper perspective. Does a Corporation have the right to endanger, and harm, other people by dumping toxic waste into a public water supply, or a flowing river? The answer then becomes easy: NO, HELL NO, NO FREAKING WAY, NEVER, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES.\r\nThis again goes back to a fundamental principle, read John Stuart Mill\u2019s \u201cOn Liberty\u201d (it is available on the Web as a FREE Download - Gutenberg has if memory serves), no individual, or group, has the right to endanger other\u2019s enjoyment of life, liberty, or property. You can argue against this polluters actions from multiple angles, it endangers life, it infringes upon liberty, and it violates the rights of people downstream to the enjoyment of their property.\r\nThe solution I have long held to is to:\r\n\r\nA. Punish them financially to such a degree as to drive them out of business. Suits are a way to do that.\r\n\r\nAnd very importantly:\r\n\r\nB. Hold the culprits PERSONALLY liable both financially and with a SUBSTANTIAL Jail term.\r\n\r\nAlways it comes down to an individual decision. Someone decided that toxic waste should be flushed into the local waters. The person who made that decision, and all the people who executed the order, should be held to account in the strongest reasonable means. Taking all of their ill gotten gains and throwing them in the Calaboose seems perfectly reasonable to me. (I also favor putting them to hard labor - either by doing clean up or \u201cmaking little ones out of big ones\u201d.)\r\n\r\nA free society is not a free-for-all. It means that as long as your actions do not infringe upon on another you are free to follow your own wishes. No one has the right to force you to expend your labor for their benefit without consent. No one has the right to endanger another without a mitigating cause. No one has the right to take from you that which you have earned through your own labors by force.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-22 14:02:57","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:04","fileurl":""},{"id":73703,"heading":"Your thoughts are shallow and self-centered","article":"Taking the first three response in unison:\r\n\r\n1. "You have the right to drink yourself sick but you do not have the right, in a free society, to injure another or threaten injury to another."\r\n2. "You cannot, even in a truly free Society, put other people at risk by your actions."\r\n3. "If you don\u2019t like patronizing a Bar that allows Smoking then don\u2019t"\r\n\r\nOkay, so how would a Libertarian "police" drunk driving or any other risky behavior?\r\n...only after the fact (injury and\/or death has occured)?\r\nIf there are no drivers licenses, does that mean drunk drivers never lose their driving priviledges?\r\nAnd how would Libertarians define inhebriation and at what age would it be legal to drink?\r\n\r\nIf second hand-smoke is even more deadly to others than to the smoker, you have put others at risk by your actions. And if there are no other local alternatives (library, speciality restaurant, theater), you infringed on the health and civil rights of non-smokers moreso than in the opposite scenario.\r\n\r\n4. "At what point is an individual old enough, and mature enough, to make their own mistakes?"\r\n\r\nSo how would a Libertarian society set an age requirement, or would they, and what mght that likely be?\r\nWhat would happen to a town wherein the majority decides age requirements for any activity is unecessary?\r\nWould the state step in to require a minimum age?\r\n\r\n5. The solution (for polluters) I have long held to is to "Punish them financially to such a degree as to drive them out of business" and hold the culprits "PERSONALLY liable both financially and with a SUBSTANTIAL Jail term"\r\n\r\nSo you admit there will be no regulation, no law to prevent environmental catastrophes, just ways to compensate the dead and dying after the fact.\r\n\r\nSo what is to prevent corporations from outspending the average citizen in litigation?\r\nHow is the little guy going to even know which corporation to sue without very expensive and time consuming tests?\r\nWill he have the full access and the willing compliance of Corporate America to search through their records?","author":"libertarians say lawsuits are the answer","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-22 15:26:46","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:04","fileurl":""},{"id":73922,"heading":"I wrote this yesterday but did not get it posted because the...","article":"...Site's Server was having a nervous breakdown. (Possibly the Bull Shit Detector overloaded?)\r\n\r\nI was going to make this a short response but the more I got into the falsities of your argument the more it grew. So, off to the "Wood Shed":\r\n\r\n\u201cOkay, so how would a Libertarian "police" drunk driving or any other risky behavior? \u201c\r\n\r\nThe same way we do now. No one is talking of the abolition of Government just the restraint of government from infringing on individual\u2019s freedom.\r\n\r\n\u201cIf there are no drivers licenses, does that mean drunk drivers never lose their driving privileges? \r\nAnd how would Libertarians define inebriation and at what age would it be legal to drink?\u201d\r\n\r\nThis is simply silly. You have taken your point to absurdity. No one is talking of letting irresponsible people have free reign to commit mayhem on the Roads.\r\nLegal Drinking Age is a silly bugaboo. Show me a Teenager who wants Booze who is incapable of figuring out a way to get it. I started going to \u201cKeggers\u201d when I was 15 as have many others. Your point is moot.\r\n\r\n\u201c "At what point is an individual old enough, and mature enough, to make their own mistakes?" \u201c\r\n\r\nWe have laws and customs to determine adulthood. 16 to Drive, 18 to Smoke or Sign a Contract, 21 to Drink (In most States). \r\nMaturity is a state of mind and a behavior, not an age. Age restrictions are to some degree arbitrary barriers since they all they are is workable general rules. No one is seriously talking of eliminating all such rules (except maybe the Anarchists).\r\n\r\n\u201cIf second hand-smoke is even more deadly to others than to the smoker, you have put others at risk by your actions. And if there are no other local alternatives (library, specialty restaurant, theater), you infringed on the health and civil rights of non-smokers moreso than in the opposite scenario. \u201c\r\n\r\nA. Most of the Second Hand Smoke Studies that were not hedged and cooked to support the anti-smoking case prove no such link. Second Hand Smoke is probably not particularly conducive to good health but it has been grossly over-hyped by people who have a personal position against Smoking to support their intrusion into other people\u2019s lives. It is nothing more than a bunch of busybodies trying to enforce their preferences on others. Those that claim to show a strong \u201cdeadly\u201d link have largely been shown to be what they are: Junk Science used to sell a personal preference, i.e., a ban on Smoking.\r\n\r\nReferences on the Second Hand Smoke Misinformation (and disinformation): \r\n\r\nA Collection of Solid Articles: http:\/\/www.forces.org\/evidence\/evid\/second.htm\r\n\r\nAnd Another: http:\/\/www.geocities.com\/shelioness\/millerltr.html\r\n\r\nJunkScience.com: http:\/\/www.junkscience.com\/mar00\/shscience.htm\r\n\r\nB. You still do not have to Patronize Establishments that allow Smoking. The choice is entirely yours and yours alone. You have attempted to avoid this truth. If you do not want to be in a Smoky Environment go somewhere where the management does not allow it. Not everything you disapprove of needs to made \u201cagainst the law\u201d. This is simply petty tyranny masquerading as \u201cdo gooding\u201d. It is bogus Bull Shit. It is nothing more than busybodies forcing their preferences on other people and using Junk Science as a Fig Leaf to justify it.\r\n\r\n\u201cSo you admit there will be no regulation, no law to prevent environmental catastrophes, just ways to compensate the dead and dying after the fact. \u201c\r\n\r\nNot at all. Current Environmental agencies are, and over time tend towards, toadies to the industries they are supposed to regulate. The fines and punishments imposed are purely arbitrary and dependent upon who has been paid off. Generally it is no more than a \u201cslap on the wrist\u201d and bury it under the Carpet.\r\n\r\nWith Penalties severe enough, and the rewards for a successful suit high enough, you would have a rabid dog pack of Trial Lawyers busy drumming up business to put the malefactors out of business. This being the case Companies would avoid polluting, at least openly, if only out of self preservation. That is the only stick a Regulatory Body has in any event - the threat of punishment for non compliance. By passing strict liability laws you make every person in the vicinity an active participant in the enforcement process - and it gives them a viable weapon with which to fight back. Please demonstrate how any Federal Environmental Agency has been effective beyond the hype in their Press Releases? Most of the effective action against polluters has been taken by private groups suing the shit out of polluters, or to force the Government to enforce it\u2019s own laws. Your argument has no merit.\r\n\r\n\u201cSo what is to prevent corporations from outspending the average citizen in litigation?\u201d\r\n\r\nWhat is to prevent the local DA, other than corruption, from filing suit? What is to prevent the Sierra Club, NRDC, Nature Conservancy, et. al., from banding together to go after polluters?\r\n\r\n\u201cWill he have the full access and the willing compliance of Corporate America to search through their records?\r\n\r\nHave you ever heard of a Subpoena? A Discovery Motion?\r\n\r\nPlease cite any criminal who has voluntarily coughed up incriminating records other than under force?\r\n\r\nYour arguments are without merit and consist mainly of twisting the Libertarian Position into impossible, and unlikely scenarios.\r\n\r\nYou have no case.\r\n\r\nTilt\r\n\r\nPlay Again?","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-23 15:24:41","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:05","fileurl":""},{"id":74013,"heading":"abolitionists birds","article":""Why are White Supremacists flocking to "Libertarianism"?"\r\n\r\nI haven't seen much of anyone "flocking" to Libertarianism. It's a weak political party for intellectually inferior individuals.\r\n\r\n"No one is talking of the abolition of Government just the restraint of government from infringing on individual\u2019s freedom."\r\n\r\nThis is why the collective at LA-IMC would regard you and those like you as "liberal assholes". That statement flies directly in the face of the dreams and aspirations of the collective. That you haven't grasped that is further evidence of your stupidity.\r\n","author":"flight","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 11:08:50","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:08","fileurl":""},{"id":74034,"heading":"Hi frescaw a turd by any...","article":"...other name still smells the same.\r\n\r\nStill pissed off over your last ass kicking? ROFL!!!!!!!!\r\n\r\nAdjust.\r\n\r\nBUSH LIED AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 12:54:35","modified":"2003-07-24 12:54:35","fileurl":""},{"id":74038,"heading":"^","article":"Dream On!!","author":"Aerosmith","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 13:00:39","modified":"2003-07-24 13:00:39","fileurl":""},{"id":74041,"heading":"For what it's worth","article":"DIOsingenuous, not that it matters to an old paranoid crackpot like yourself, but this is the first post I've made on this particular thread, under ANY name (although I RARELY use another handle).\r\n\r\nAnd maybe I am a little upset over the last asskickin' I got. It was Sunday. My baseball team got our heads handed to us. Bad pitching and very questionable defense. But what can you do?\r\n\r\nBy the way, the irony of all this is that, having read the thread, I'm on your side (that must kill you huh?) and find it interesting that you've been arguing with our resident anti-libertarian Sheepdog as he uses a different handle, thinking it was me the whole time.\r\n\r\nAnyway, time to hit the mound and work on my knuckle-curve.","author":"fresca","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 13:05:33","modified":"2003-07-24 13:05:33","fileurl":""},{"id":74156,"heading":"fresca, you're REALLY not too bright","article":"I'm everywhere and nowhere. Flaming paranoiac witless mossad\r\nstooge. Squealing my nick again in spastic reaction.\r\nNice to see you making an ass out of yourself...again.\r\nFor the sane, however, I agree in principle with Diogenes on many issues with the exception of taxation.\r\nBut I'm sure he'll come around. He\u2019s a good man with qualities of\r\nanalysis and compassion he may mistakenly assume other\u2019s possess.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 17:10:39","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:10","fileurl":""},{"id":74159,"heading":"Sheepdog","article":""He\u2019s a good man with qualities of analysis and compassion he may mistakenly assume other\u2019s possess."\r\n\r\nIf he "assume(s) other's possess" something, and he may do so mistakenly, wouldn't that mean his analysis is off?","author":"just wondering","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 17:15:43","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:10","fileurl":""},{"id":74160,"heading":"Well, just wondering","article":"If he's pissed at getting tax raped, I understand.\r\nYou notice that he uses the nick Diogenes, not God.\r\nFor the most part, I agree with him.\r\nAlso thanks for the english usage correction; as you may notice, I don't use the nick of English Instructor.\r\nBe glad I at least use spell check.\r\n","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 17:30:21","modified":"2003-07-24 17:30:21","fileurl":""},{"id":74162,"heading":"Sheepdog","article":"We're all pissed at getting tax raped. All those damn entitlement programs for the hammock ridden welfare "the world owes me a living" scum. What else is new?\r\n\r\nAnd for the most part, except for both of you being anti-Bush et.al., your political philosophies are quite different. His viewpoints are definately at odds with the collective at LA-IMC. Big time at odds.","author":"really? you think?","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 17:47:32","modified":"2003-07-24 17:47:32","fileurl":""},{"id":74165,"heading":"entitlements","article":"You want to talk entitlements?\r\nLook at the agribusiness or defense contractors.\r\nOr the S&L bailouts\r\nOr the general bailouts of the corporations that spend\r\nthemselves into finical ruin.\r\nSupporting the poor or the children of the poor, I know\r\nis evil in your eyes...\r\nOr the old or the sick...\r\nNice going.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 17:54:52","modified":"2003-07-24 17:54:52","fileurl":""},{"id":74167,"heading":"SD","article":""Supporting the poor or the children of the poor, I know \r\nis evil in your eyes... "\r\n\r\nNo reason to discuss anything with someone who would presume to know what I do and don't believe or support. Don't have time to dismiss all the things *you* mistakenly believe are my positions. Find another who'll play your game along with your rules if you wish.","author":"no thanx","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:00:16","modified":"2003-07-24 18:00:16","fileurl":""},{"id":74168,"heading":"so fuck off","article":"Take your tiny balls and go home. I think I know where you stand:\r\n"All those damn entitlement programs for the\r\n hammock ridden welfare "the world owes me a living" scum"\r\nSo fuck off, Mr. proper.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:04:04","modified":"2003-07-24 18:04:04","fileurl":""},{"id":74169,"heading":"I think I know where you stand","article":"That's what you get for *thinking* you know rather than asking.","author":"mr. proper","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:06:23","modified":"2003-07-24 18:06:23","fileurl":""},{"id":74171,"heading":"One more round (I've got lots)","article":"Don't need to read your mind[?] I can read your lack of\r\nrebutal together with your typed opinion.\r\nWouldn't want to know what you're thinking. I'd need to\r\nwash of the arrogance.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:14:04","modified":"2003-07-24 18:14:04","fileurl":""},{"id":74174,"heading":"Sheepdog","article":"The problem is you assign things to others without any evidence, just as you did with me. You took one statement I made and ran with it in directions you believed are my opinions rather than asking. Don't hand me this "arrogance" crap! It's arrogant to assign beliefs to someone just because you think it fits. Just ask next time. You might learn a thing or two. Might.","author":"ok","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:18:51","modified":"2003-07-24 18:18:51","fileurl":""},{"id":74176,"heading":"poor and weak IMO (not too damn humble either)","article":"And you just let it slip about the 'scum' you despise.\r\nDo me a favor.","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:22:24","modified":"2003-07-24 18:22:24","fileurl":""},{"id":74179,"heading":"Whoa there sheepdog","article":"I didn't mean to get you so upset when I called you out on your argument with diosingenuous.\r\n\r\nMaybe you should grow a pair and actually use your normal handle when arguing with the great dio.\r\n\r\nOr would that throw a wrench into the ranks?\r\n\r\nOh well, take a moment to collect yorself, have a cup of coffee and settle down.\r\n\r\nI hate to see you so upset.","author":"fresca","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:34:09","modified":"2003-07-24 18:34:09","fileurl":""},{"id":74182,"heading":"it's the witless mossad stooge","article":"clueless as ever I see. If you do have any balls (which I doubt) they don't substitute for brains.\r\nGeez, look out the window. I'm everywhere.\r\nWhen ever you see a comment you don't like, it's me.\r\nIn fact, I have a thermalgraphic of your worksite and\r\nmy operatives or now on the way to deal with you.\r\nThey do it out of love for me. Drive carefully now.\r\n ","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:47:10","modified":"2003-07-24 18:47:10","fileurl":""},{"id":74185,"heading":"dog","article":"What the hell are you going on about?\r\n\r\nSpit it out.\r\n","author":"fresca","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:49:12","modified":"2003-07-24 18:49:12","fileurl":""},{"id":74187,"heading":"hmmmm","article":"'Oh well, take a moment to collect yorself, have a cup of coffee and settle down. \r\n\r\n I hate to see you so upset.'\r\n","author":"could be Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:54:04","modified":"2003-07-24 18:54:04","fileurl":""},{"id":74189,"heading":"SD","article":"I despise people who believe the world owes them a living. But to automatically attach that I am in favor of corporate welfare is a stretch, unless of course, you've already predetermined what someone believes before you even ask them. Comprehendo?","author":"you betcha","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 18:59:15","modified":"2003-07-24 18:59:15","fileurl":""},{"id":74193,"heading":"ok, that makes some sense","article":"I just get tired of the finger being pointed at the marginalized, for whatever reasons, as being the sole\r\ndrag on our collective production. In fact, I believe that\r\nthe major recipients of socialism are the big boys who design policies.\r\nI can't help but remember the saying, 'if but for the grace of God there go I'\r\nWhen a government has cancer, it makes little sense to worry about the sprained wrist. It makes even less sense to blame the condition on the ones who have fallen through the cracks. ","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 19:11:33","modified":"2003-07-24 19:11:33","fileurl":""},{"id":74195,"heading":"SD","article":"I didn't say I wasn't in favor of corporate welfare either. But, you never asked, which is the whole point. Start asking.","author":"then again","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 19:15:30","modified":"2003-07-24 19:15:30","fileurl":""},{"id":74197,"heading":"I'm a bad dog, I don't obey orders.","article":"But for the sake of dialogue, what questions am I to ask?","author":"Sheepdog","parent_id":73420,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-24 19:21:31","modified":"2003-07-24 19:21:31","fileurl":""}]}