{"article":{"id":73175,"heading":"Media Underplays U.S. Death Toll in Iraq","author":"C\/O Diogenes","created":"2003-07-18 21:30:33","modified":"2007-10-05 20:10:28","last_modified":"Sat, 06 Oct 2007 03:10:28","article":"

JULY 17, 2003

Media Underplays U.S. Death Toll in Iraq

Soldiers Dead Since May Is 3 Times Official Count

By Greg Mitchell

NEW YORK -- News Analysis

Any way you look at it, the news is bad enough. According to Thursday's press and television reports, 33 U.S. soldiers have now died in combat since President Bush declared an end to the major fighting in the war on May 2. This, of course, is a tragedy for the men killed and their families, and a problem for the White House.

But actually the numbers are much worse -- and rarely reported by the media.

According to official military records, the number of U.S. soldiers who have died in Iraq since May 2 is actually 85. This includes a staggering number of non-combat deaths. Even if killed in a non-hostile action, these soldiers are no less dead, their families no less aggrieved. And it's safe to say that nearly all of these people would still be alive if they were still back in the States.

Nevertheless, the media continues to report the much lower figure of 33 as if those are the only deaths that count.

A Web site called Iraq Coalition Casualty Count (http:\/\/lunaville.org\/warcasualties\/Summary.aspx<\/a>) is tracking the deaths, by whatever cause, of U.S. military personnel in Iraq, based on official Pentagon and CENTCOM press releases and Army Times and CNN casualty trackers. Their current count is 85 since May 2.

Looking at the entire war, there was much fanfare Thursday over the fact that the latest U.S. combat death this week pushed the official total to 148 -- finally topping the 147 figure for Gulf War 1. However, according to the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, the total number of all U.S. deaths, combat and otherwise, in Iraq is actually 224.

This Web site not only counts deaths, it describes each one in whatever detail (often sketchy) the military provides, along with the name and age and home town of each fatality.

An analysis of the 85 deaths by E&P reveals that nearly as many U.S. military personnel have died in vehicle accidents (17) as from gunshot wounds (19). Ten have died after grenade attacks and seven from accidental explosions, another seven in helicopter crashes. Six were killed by what is described as \"non-hostile\" gunshots, and three have drowned.

The vast majority of those killed -- at least 70% -- were age 18 to 30 but several soldiers in their 40s or 50s have also perished. Pentagon officials also disclosed that there have been about five deaths among troops assigned to the Iraq mission that commanders say might have been suicides. As inquiries continue, one official said the susupected suicides were not clustered in any single time period that might indicate a related cause.

The most recent non-combat death was Cory Ryan Geurin, age 18, a Marine lance corporal from Santee, Calif. \"He was standing post on a palace roof in Babylon when he fell approximately 60 feet,\" the site said.

On July 13, Jaror C. Puello-Coronado, 36, an Army sergeant, died while \"manning a traffic point when the operator of a dump truck lost control of the vehicle.\"

Another soldier, still officially listed as \"Unknown,\" died on July 13 \"from a non-hostile gunshot incident,\" according to the site.

Before that, on July 9, another Marine Lance Corporal, age 20, died in Kuwait \"in a vehicle accident.\"

Many other deaths are only vaguely described as the \"result of non-combat injuries.\" One recent death occurred in a mine-clearing accident. Others \"drowned\" or \"died of natural causes,\" and still others lost their lives in a \"vehicle accident.\"

---

E&P welcomes letters to the editor: letters@editorandpublisher.com<\/a>.

Source: Editor & Publisher Online

http:\/\/www.mediainfo.com\/editorandpublisher\/headlines\/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1935586<\/a>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greg Mitchell (gmitchell@editorandpublisher.com<\/a>) is editor of E&P.

<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"Any way you look at it, the news is bad enough. According to Thursday's press and television reports, 33 U.S. soldiers have now died in combat since President Bush declared an end to the major fighting in the war on May 2. This, of course, is a tragedy for the men killed and their families, and a problem for the White House.","numcomment":51,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/07\/73175.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":166022,"heading":"Hindsight is 20\/20","article":"Now that it is 2006 and the death rate in Iraq has come out to average less per year than the peacetime death rate under the last 4 Presidents, I wonder how this author feels about "jumping the gun" on stories like this for political bias and propaganda.","author":"Peter","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-25 03:25:47","modified":"2006-06-25 03:25:47","fileurl":""},{"id":166034,"heading":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush) on Mainstream Media in Iraq","article":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush): "Sorry to Oil the Phony Numbers and the Media Manipulation but Oil comes First. Fill her Up ?????"","author":"The Devil (George Warmonger Bush)","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2006-06-25 10:08:49","modified":"2006-06-25 10:08:49","fileurl":""},{"id":73177,"heading":"It is truly amazing...","article":"...how many Soldiers have died in "accidents". By these numbers non-combat deaths outnumber those killed in hostile action.\r\n\r\nOf course they wouldn't reclassify a death by hostile action as an accident to keep the count down would they?\r\n\r\nEveryone one of these young people were killed so that that grinning psychopath in Oval Orofice can enrich his family and his cronies.\r\n\r\n"Bring em' on" says the cowardly deserter from his Swivel Chair.\r\n\r\nOf course nobody who matters is over there. Certainly none of the Children of anybody in his family or Junta.\r\n\r\nSupport our Troops. Bring them Home!\r\n\r\nBUSH LIED AND THOUSANDS DIED. MORE ARE DYING EACH DAY.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 21:35:31","modified":"2003-07-18 21:35:31","fileurl":""},{"id":73193,"heading":"In my previous life I was an Indian fighter at Little Big Horn","article":"This is why I have so much hatred for those who fight for their land.\r\n\r\nWhy only tears for the oil mersenaries and no mention of Iraqi death?","author":"readyman","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 22:54:56","modified":"2003-07-18 22:54:56","fileurl":""},{"id":73200,"heading":"All Lives are precious...","article":"...EVERY One.\r\n\r\nIdealistic and Romantic young men who joined out of a sense of Duty and to seek adventure are not the cause of this War. They are as much victims as the Iraqi's. Pehaps more so because they will have to live with the psychic scars of killing in an unjust cause. Those wounds go to the very Soul.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 23:50:33","modified":"2003-07-18 23:50:33","fileurl":""},{"id":73206,"heading":"Diogenes, can you tell us","article":"the statistics for deaths and injury in the US Armed Forces per 100,000 in "peacetime" operations, i.e. deaths from training accidents, traffic accidents, suicides etc?\r\n\r\nThen we can put things into perspective.","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 01:21:59","modified":"2003-07-19 01:21:59","fileurl":""},{"id":73208,"heading":"Can you give me a concise...","article":"...Proof of Femat's Last Theorem?\r\n\r\nState your point.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 01:35:07","modified":"2003-07-19 01:35:07","fileurl":""},{"id":73210,"heading":"Who do you think I am, Andrew Wiles??","article":"Can you tell us how many US armed forces personel die in service per month on average please???\r\n\r\nThen we can see if the numbers show a conspiracy with regard to the casualties in Iraq.\r\n\r\nQuite simple really.\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 01:42:02","modified":"2003-07-19 01:42:02","fileurl":""},{"id":73212,"heading":"Who do you think I am? Google?","article":"Britannica maybe?\r\n\r\nThe point as you well know is an indeterminable. Given that it would be Politically damaging for their to be too many casualties from continued hostilities there is an incentive to minimize the number of deaths from hostile action so as to not arouse public ire.\r\n\r\nThere is historical precedent for such: Vietnam.\r\n\r\nI do not trust proven liars to tell the truth. I guess I am funny that way.\r\n\r\nBUSH LIED AND THOUSANDS DIED. And they are still dying.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 01:56:11","modified":"2003-07-19 01:56:11","fileurl":""},{"id":73215,"heading":"Diogenes, you are being evasive again..","article":"You publish on Indymedia yet ANOTHER article written by someone else and you do not do any background reading or checking of facts. I DO.\r\n\r\nLet us take the article you posted and breake down the first part so you get some sort of a clue how it goes.\r\n\r\nYour Intro... ""According to Thursday's press and television reports, 33 U.S. soldiers have now died in combat since President Bush declared an end to the major fighting in the war on May 2""\r\n\r\nTOTALLY CORRECT! so where is your story????\r\n\r\n""Soldiers Dead Since May Is 3 Times Official Count""\r\n\r\nUmm... soldiers dead is EXACTLY official count!!!! \r\n\r\n""But actually the numbers are much worse""\r\n\r\nOfficial count is 85 of which 33 were due to hostile actions as the article says.\r\n\r\n""According to official military records, the number of U.S. soldiers who have died in Iraq since May 2 is actually 85""\r\n\r\nSo the military is releasing figures for the total number of soldiers who have died in Iraq since May 2. I still can't see any cover up.\r\n\r\n""Nevertheless, the media continues to report the much lower figure of 33""\r\n\r\nThe media is reporting the figure 33 as COMBAT deaths.\r\n\r\nanyway, you get the jist of the way that article is spinning the figures to suit the authors purpose????\r\n\r\nNOW... The important part, YOUR comment!!!!\r\n\r\n"Of course they wouldn't reclassify a death by hostile action as an accident to keep the count down would they? "\r\n\r\nand I ask, what is the average death rate per 100,000 of deployed US troops due to non-enemy action????\r\n\r\nYou questioned the government data, now show us how the government are "reclassifying" deaths.\r\n\r\nUnderstand now?\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:11:48","modified":"2003-07-19 02:11:48","fileurl":""},{"id":73216,"heading":"Getting kind of Testy aren't we.","article":"Perhaps a little shrill perhaps?\r\n\r\nI think you should lay off the Junk Food for a while it's not good for your already elevated Blood Pressure.\r\n\r\nThe point of course which you don't want to confront is that we have young men and women dying far from home as the result of a bogus trumped up war which was sold by lies. Lies which become more apparent each day as Duhbya careens from one foot in the mouth to two. I suspect what is occurring with your rather frantic and heated "rebuttal" is that "you just can't handle the truth." You've been had. And now a lot of good kids are dead because of the filthy Son of Bitch you support.\r\n\r\nPreying on your conscience?","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:19:57","modified":"2003-07-19 02:19:57","fileurl":""},{"id":73217,"heading":"P.S. Try Praying.","article":"Maybe G-d will forgive you.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:25:32","modified":"2003-07-19 02:25:32","fileurl":""},{"id":73218,"heading":"Now because you can't debate","article":"You start with the insults.\r\n\r\nI do not deny our armed forces are suffering casualties in Iraq. What I do object to is people like you using the body count to further your political agenda.\r\n\r\nThat article gave a false impression.....\r\n\r\nYou are blind to the spin.\r\n\r\nOh well....","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:26:07","modified":"2003-07-19 02:26:07","fileurl":""},{"id":73220,"heading":"What false impression...","article":"...is that? That a bunch of good kids are really not dead? That it is all a bad joke and their families are not really grieving the loss of a loved one? That several thousand Iraqi's are really not dead, dying, or crippled for life?\r\n\r\nThat the death toll is NOT being understated?\r\n\r\nNo one, none, nada, zero, or the people in Duhbya's Circle has lost anyone or had anyone in harm's way. Only 1 member of Congress had a son in harm's way.\r\n\r\nThis is an insider's War which is not in the best interests of the United States. It is a War of Imperial Agression conducted for the personal benefit of small and venal men who see only the personal profit they can extract from this misery. Every kid who has died is testimony to the evil you and your ilk have wrought.\r\n\r\nThey are blood upon your hands not mine.\r\n\r\nPerhaps you find it a trifle, I do not.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:42:31","modified":"2003-07-19 02:42:31","fileurl":""},{"id":73221,"heading":"See you DID have an agenda!!!","article":"You ARE using the deaths of people for YOUR political agenda.\r\n\r\nPeople like you just wet themselves every time someone dies in Iraq because it suits your purpose..\r\n\r\nDon't deny it, everyone can see the thread. \r\n\r\nWhat a sad life you lead..... \r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 02:48:04","modified":"2003-07-19 02:48:04","fileurl":""},{"id":73223,"heading":"What are you talking about?","article":"Irrational person\r\nAre you retarded?\r\nDo you have a valid point?\r\nDio is simply stating that our US brothers and sisters are fucking DYING everyday fighting this bullshit imperialist campaign.\r\n\r\nAnd you try to turn the shit around to make the anti-war perpective seem happy about continuing US losses.\r\nFUCK YOU.\r\n\r\nWe are trying to make all you stupid ass war mongers see the TRUTH of the matter.\r\nWE WANT THE SOLDIERS HOME NOW.","author":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:01:38","modified":"2003-07-19 03:01:38","fileurl":""},{"id":73225,"heading":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe you are blind also.","article":"The article is trying to INFLATE combat losses to force a political U-turn....\r\n\r\nLike it or not WE ARE COMMITED TO SEEING THIS THROUGH.\r\n\r\nWhen your party is in power then you can decide how, when and where US troops are deployed. Until then shut the fuck up and support the troops.","author":"Rational Normal Person.","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:06:26","modified":"2003-07-19 03:06:26","fileurl":""},{"id":73226,"heading":"also notice how Sy$teMF@iLuRe","article":"Dives in with the personal insults.\r\n\r\nSad to watch....... \r\n\r\nCan't attack the argument attack the poster.\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:09:03","modified":"2003-07-19 03:09:03","fileurl":""},{"id":73227,"heading":"Wake up","article":"inflating the losses?\r\nThe statistics came off a DoD website, so how can I be INFLATING the number.\r\nWe will see this through eh?\r\nPlease explain for all of us STUPID folks here at Indymedia how the war will be "won".\r\nPlease provide details.\r\nDidnt your leader GW already say that the war was over?\r\nWhy are people still dying?\r\n\r\nWhen my party is in power?\r\nWhat does that mean?\r\nThe democrats? Dont make me laugh.\r\nThey' re as corrupt as your party.\r\n\r\nThe whole system is corrupt.\r\nI stand for the constitution (somthing you might try reading ) of america. I stand for the American people and justice for all.\r\n\r\nAnd since your so pumped up about "fighting for America"---why didnt you enlist?\r\nCant wait to hear your excuses.\r\nhA H@ Ha","author":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:16:36","modified":"2003-07-19 03:16:36","fileurl":""},{"id":73228,"heading":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe, READ THE THREAD!","article":"Media Underplays U.S. Death Toll in Iraq\r\n\r\nnow take note of that....... THAT IS THE THREAD.\r\n\r\nREAD the thread. Now tell us WHERE THE MEDIA UNDERPLAYED the death toll...\r\n\r\nThe article is saying they are under reporting the number of deaths. The fact is they are reporting COMBAT deaths and stating so. Frequently they also report the NON-COMBAT deaths also in the same report.\r\n\r\nWhich media????? Tell us who is saying 33 total?\r\n\r\nI just did a quick search on CNN. \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.cnn.com\/2003\/WORLD\/meast\/07\/16\/sprj.irq.main\/index.html\r\n\r\n""BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday in an attack on a convoy in Baghdad, bringing the number of American battle deaths in the Iraqi conflict to 148 surpassing the 147 killed in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. \r\n\r\nThirty-three of those deaths have come in attacks since President Bush declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq on May 1. ""\r\n\r\nand later.....\r\n\r\n""According to the Pentagon, 222 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq, including 148 in hostile fire, since the conflict began in March. In the Gulf War, there were 147 battle deaths and 145 deaths in nonhostile incidents.""\r\n\r\nAccurate......\r\n\r\n http:\/\/www.cnn.com\/2003\/WORLD\/meast\/06\/19\/sprj.irq.main\/index.html\r\n\r\n""Ambushes have killed 17 U.S. troops in Iraq since President Bush declared an end to major combat May 1, and another 37 have died in what are described as non-hostile incidents. ""\r\n\r\nMedia Underplays U.S. Death Toll in Iraq, well CNN isn't, then which media outlet is??????????????????????????????????????\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:26:09","modified":"2003-07-19 03:26:09","fileurl":""},{"id":73229,"heading":"Plausible Deniability","article":"rnp,\r\nFrom inspection of the link provided, the placement of the paragraph where they accurately state the reported total casualties so far is in the most obscure place it could possibly be. It is underplayed as much as it could be while still being present. Fourth to last paragraph, right before a bold intro to another unrelated section. Anyone who has designed webpages a while knows that the two most important sections of a page are the top and bottom, the bottom much more than you might think, because instinctively people frequently scroll to the bottom of a page before actually reading the page, to scan everything in but in such a fashion as to end the scanning gesture at the point one would begin the reading action. I don't think its a conscious effort by people to do it in this way but repetition breeds effeciency.\r\n\r\nAssuming most people have a short attention span and will not read all of the 'recap' section that makes up the second half of damn near any article cnn makes, placing information you want Underplayed right around the 2nd third of that recap material is where it is most likely to not get any attention.\r\n\r\nAlso consider the information that they wanted percieved was first on the page, in larger text, in bold, next to a picture. It could be no more prominent.\r\n\r\nThe thread topic was not lying about the casualties, it was underplaying. And that is exactly whats going on. To say nothing of those poor damned iraqis. One of our guys dies and its world headlines, 6000+ of them die and not so much as a blip on the radar. Hell, statistically their armed forces aren't even a relevant number. We could have wasted 20,000 of them walking into baghdad and we'd never know because no one cares. And you rightleaning types be careful, yes i know they are shooting at our guys but was this war ever legal? Did we have justification to invade? If not, can you really blame them from trying to defend their country? They at least deserve a number, some relevance...","author":"matt","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:49:36","modified":"2003-07-19 03:49:36","fileurl":""},{"id":73230,"heading":"Answers....","article":"inflating the losses? \r\nThe statistics came off a DoD website, so how can I be INFLATING the number. (the number of combat losses is being inflate by your ranting and trying to add normal suicide etc deaths to it)\r\n \r\nWe will see this through eh? \r\nPlease explain for all of us STUPID folks here at Indymedia how the war will be "won". (did I say this war would be won??? don't even go there....)\r\n \r\nPlease provide details. \r\nDidnt your leader GW already say that the war was over? (The first phase is)\r\nWhy are people still dying? (um people are still killing each other?)\r\n\r\nWhen my party is in power? (what is your political allegance by the way?)\r\nWhat does that mean? (back at you...)\r\nThe democrats? Dont make me laugh. (me either...)\r\nThey' re as corrupt as your party. (what is my "party" seeing as you are on a roll here...)\r\n\r\nThe whole system is corrupt. \r\nI stand for the constitution ,somthing you might try reading , of america. I stand for the American people and justice for all. (well great for you! I will read it when it comes out in paperback unless I can get a copy on Ebay cheap!!)\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd since your so pumped up about "fighting for America"---why didnt you enlist? (aw you really don't want to know do you?.. hey why don't you enlist, fight for what you feel is right!\r\nCant wait to hear your excuses. (can't wait for you to get a clue ....)\r\nhA H@ Ha (you coughing up a fur ball????)\r\n\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:52:57","modified":"2003-07-19 03:52:57","fileurl":""},{"id":73231,"heading":"footnote","article":"Upon rereading my last statement it appears unclear why I mention the human inclination towards scanning the document in reverse. The point is that if they were placing the actual fatality numbers right at the end, I would find the case against them of underplaying to be considerably less than where they actually put the real info (buried in the second half recap).\r\n\r\nJust wanted to clarify that.","author":"matt","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:53:31","modified":"2003-09-05 08:40:17","fileurl":""},{"id":73232,"heading":"Matt, the sad part is....","article":"that even COMBAT deaths are not the number one news item any more. I do not feel that the "media" is under reporting the loss of US lives in Iraq, the sad fact is it is not news. When they do report they specify combat (and as CNN is now saying Battle) deaths and totals.\r\n\r\nYou realise US troops are STILL being killed in Afghanistan??? \r\n\r\nAnyway I object to the Libertarians and other anti the current administration using the number of dead to advance their cause.\r\n\r\nAMERICA is commited in Iraq, like it or not. ","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 03:59:17","modified":"2003-07-19 03:59:17","fileurl":""},{"id":73233,"heading":"To irrational Abnormal Shill...","article":"...what a disgusting little pimple you are. Reducing the loss of life to some sort of Political Equation.\r\n\r\nAn agenda? Is the abhorrence of the unnecessary loss of life an agenda? Well, I guess I have an agenda then.\r\n\r\nCertainly it is not the one you falsely attempt to imply one of some mere political calculus. Gloat over the loss of American Kids in some God forsaken Desert? What a repugnant thought.\r\n\r\nNo it is you who are attempting to spin this into something it is not. You have been listening to that hate filled Closet Queen Michael Savage Weiner too much.\r\n\r\nAs for what people can see from the thread they can see that I abhor the loss of life in the Bush Junta's Oil War.\r\n\r\nMy agenda is what is best for this country. NOT what is best for Duhbya and his Cronies.\r\n\r\nMy agenda is not seeing young kids used as pawns in a sick Geopolitical Game called further enrich the psychopaths.\r\n\r\nYour position is nothing more than that of a sick little sycophant slurping up that which your master drops for you.\r\n\r\nSupport the Troops?\r\n\r\nYou betcha - Bring them home. Their job is defending this country not making another filthy pile for a Nazi Collaborating bunch of swine.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:02:22","modified":"2003-07-19 04:02:22","fileurl":""},{"id":73234,"heading":"three examples of underplaying","article":"Well there snapperhead,\r\nTurn on the T.V. set and see how many times after they mention another US casualty, and then go on to mention the OVERALL total.\r\nYou'll see what i mean.\r\n\r\nAlso, heres some news articles that dont mention the overall count of American soldiers dead\r\n(for you info)\r\nI decided to give you TWO REFERENCES.\r\n\r\nFIRST\r\nWashington Post\r\nhttp:\/\/story.news.yahoo.com\/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=18&u=\/washpost\/20030712\/ts_washpost\/a45480_2003jul11\r\n(ALL THOSE STATISTICS AND NO OVERALL COUNT)\r\n\r\nSECOND\r\nNew York Times:\r\nhttp:\/\/story.news.yahoo.com\/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=6&u=\/nyt\/20030716\/ts_nyt\/gikilledandseveralotherswoundediniraq\r\n(LIST DEATHS SINCE MAY1, BUT NO OVERALL COUNT)\r\n\r\nThere you go two articles on this Saddam holiday and two major news references that FAILED to put in the \r\nOVERALL dead total.\r\n\r\nBut you dont see the real picture do you?\r\nUS soldiers are dying for NOTHING.\r\n\r\nand you never answered my question about military service........\r\n\r\n","author":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:02:28","modified":"2003-07-19 04:02:28","fileurl":""},{"id":73235,"heading":"One thing I will conceed though is...","article":"It does seem like the press is now trying to hype up the fatalities (finally). I can't say I trust their motives, i've just gotten so used to seeing no media representation of my viewpoints at all that i don't trust it when my perspective gets some airplay. But they do seem to be turning, abruptly, on bush and crew. They seem to be turning towards deanthough, and that worries me a bit too cause he seems like KucinichLite, like 'all the buzzwords, none of the conviction'... I'm sticking with kucinich until i see a photo of dean where he doesn't look like he's lying.\r\n\r\nI have heard some (actually just one) statements by our soldiers that they don't feel this 'nitpicking' over intelligence specifics benefits them in their goal of getting the hell out of dodge. I disagree though, I think the sooner we discredit bush, his administration, and all his reasons behind this war, the sooner we can hand over administration of this disaster over to the UN and bring our guys home. Let the UN stabilize for a moment and then start throwing money, resources, supplies, anything we can but more bombs at them to try to rebuild.","author":"matt","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:05:43","modified":"2003-07-19 04:05:43","fileurl":""},{"id":73236,"heading":"I just love that last line...","article":"...out of your last post. It is like a time warp back to 1969 and listening to the supporters of the Vietnam War.\r\n\r\n"We've already lost too many lives therefore we need to sacrifice the lives of more and more and more and more."\r\n\r\nWE are not committed to Iraq. Duhbya and his Gang are. As are phony bloodsucking shills who act as apologists for that which admits of no apology.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:07:01","modified":"2003-07-19 04:07:01","fileurl":""},{"id":73237,"heading":" Diogenes. Insults again...","article":"You said it !!!! "what a disgusting little pimple you are. Reducing the loss of life to some sort of Political Equation. "\r\n\r\nEquasion equals numbers equaling something....\r\n\r\nYou started this thread for political purposes by questioning numbers. I have done with you on this thread.\r\n\r\nMake sure you know what the hell you are cutting and pasting on the next one!\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person.","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:07:12","modified":"2003-07-19 04:07:12","fileurl":""},{"id":73238,"heading":"To Matt...","article":"...I think the Casualties may be getting a little more notice because Duhbya has become a liability to his masters.\r\n\r\nToo many badly constructed lies that are now unraveling.\r\n\r\nThey may want to set him up and bury him so that any investigation will not go into things they do not want the general public to become aware of or concerned about.\r\n\r\nTime will tell - I am speculating here but I suspect we may see such a scenario.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:11:01","modified":"2003-07-19 04:11:01","fileurl":""},{"id":73239,"heading":"The only cutting here...","article":"...is Irrational Abnormal Shill cutting and running because it has no argument left other than to impute false motives to others.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:12:44","modified":"2003-07-19 04:12:44","fileurl":""},{"id":73240,"heading":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe, Great!!! Progress!","article":"between us whe have refined the thread. "MEDIA" is not under reporting as a whole, but some "Media outlets" are.\r\n\r\nNow could not Diogenese have done some research and given a list of the ones that were under reporting as the article states and those that were trying to give a full picture?\r\n\r\nCut and paste queens are so pathetic some times.\r\n\r\nAs for your question on Military Service I will join the US Military on the same day that hell freezes over. What is your excuse????????????????","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:14:02","modified":"2003-07-19 04:14:02","fileurl":""},{"id":73242,"heading":"Ah now it becomes...","article":"...clearer. We have us one of them thar' Chicken Hawks.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:25:31","modified":"2003-07-19 04:25:31","fileurl":""},{"id":73243,"heading":"Sy$teMF@iLuRe, hey I looked at your links","article":"What colour is the sky on your planet?\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/story.news.yahoo.com\/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=18&u=\/washpost\/20030712\/ts_washpost\/a45480_2003jul11\r\n\r\nwas POLL results. no death numbers. (you stated for that link "ALL THOSE STATISTICS AND NO OVERALL COUNT" , there was NO mention of numbers of dead, just popularity polls)\r\n\r\n http:\/\/story.news.yahoo.com\/news?tmpl=story&cid=68&ncid=68&e=6&u=\/nyt\/20030716\/ts_nyt\/gikilledandseveralotherswoundediniraq\r\n\r\n""Thirty-four American soldiers have have been killed by insurgents since President Bush (news - web sites) declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq (news - web sites) on May 1; at least 49 have died in other incidents such as traffic accidents and weapons discharges, the latest such death coming late yesterday when a marine fell from the roof of a building where he was on guard duty, military officials said.\r\n\r\nBefore today's attacks, 300 American soldiers had been wounded in combat and 315 in noncombat incidents since May 1, Corporal Pruden said""\r\n\r\nYou said that link was "LIST DEATHS SINCE MAY1, BUT NO OVERALL COUNT"\r\n\r\nIs your mouse decieving you??\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:28:27","modified":"2003-07-19 04:28:27","fileurl":""},{"id":73244,"heading":"Me personally, far more important than our dead is ...","article":"How successful are we? Thats certainly a broad question but overall, weighing the various factors, how are we doing?\r\n\r\nFigure, so far, well, not too good really. \r\n\r\nAfghanistan, bigger taliban playground now than it ever was. Making a bunch of money off heroin now too. Yay. No Osama. \r\n\r\nIraq. We either went to free the iraqis, or we went to go get the wmd. No wmd, and the iraqis are laregly without power, clean water, adequete supply chain structure, medical facilities, or anything resembling a stable lifestyle. This is the freedom we bring? And no Saddam either.\r\n\r\nSo our report card is, so far, pretty bad really. And then you start thinking of fatalities on either side and you really have to wonder if any of it is 'worth it'. Did iraq have wmd? Looks like no. Did we go in for the oil? Well we secured and privatized (stole) it within half an hour of entering the country and it has since been the only thing resembling secured in the country. Did we get Saddam out of power? For now, supposedly, yes. Until we catch him though, no. Will we catch him while we are so busy trying to restore basic public services we can barely maintain control? No. Will we need more people over there? Yes. Will anyone in their right mind sign up for this shit now? Hell no.\r\n\r\nSo... can we win? No. Did we ever have any decent reason to be there in the first place? No defensible reason. Strategic influence and oil are not defensible reasons to kill off thousands of people. Even if we could "win" and occupy Iraq and maintain control indefinately, is it even a fight we should win? It looks, more and more, like definately no. This is not a fight anyone can win. I think it is time for everyone involved to cut their losses, let us declare ourselves the losers, we can call the iraqis the victors, in reality everyone lost but who cares now. Let the iraqis figure out their own social system, finances and whatnot and let us do the same.\r\n\r\nAnd if the nukes come, then so be it. The iraqis wouldn't be the first people that don't love everything american to get the bomb. I don't think they necessarily would but I'm saying I for one do not care. Not enough to try to bully the world into US compliance. That can never succeed and will only further this insanity. We can lock down the country sufficently to prevent the import of nukes, so if the only way to hit us with a nuke is to launch it at us, fine, we will know who to smack the shit out of. And everyone knows this so really there is probably no problem to worry about. Its like handguns, just cause i have one doesn't mean i'm going to go carjack everyone with a better car than me.","author":"matt","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:29:17","modified":"2003-07-19 04:29:17","fileurl":""},{"id":73245,"heading":"Diogenes, please expand","article":"What is the "Chicken Hawks" reference?","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:30:48","modified":"2003-07-19 04:30:48","fileurl":""},{"id":73246,"heading":"You know Matt, If you had posted that","article":"on a new topic I may have had nothing to contribute.\r\n\r\nHowever, this is a media mis-reporting thread.\r\n","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:33:22","modified":"2003-07-19 04:33:22","fileurl":""},{"id":73247,"heading":"And I quote...","article":""As for your question on Military Service I will join the US Military on the same day that hell freezes over."\r\n\r\nWar Supporter unwilling to carry the load but willing to let others die = Buck, buccck, buuuuuuccccck, Chicken + Hawk.\r\n\r\nAnd yes I AM a Veteran.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:34:08","modified":"2003-07-19 04:34:08","fileurl":""},{"id":73248,"heading":"Diogenes, and you are stupid.","article":"Have you ANY FUCKING IDEA why I have not, will not, ever be a member of the United States Armed Forces?\r\n\r\nSo you are a veteran, big deal........","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:37:36","modified":"2003-07-19 04:37:36","fileurl":""},{"id":73249,"heading":"HEY we have a VETERAN in here!","article":"Hey Dio, tell us how many die in service of non-combat related injuries in the US armed forces each year, you should know!\r\n\r\nFINALLY we found someone who can really tell us.","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 04:40:11","modified":"2003-07-19 04:40:11","fileurl":""},{"id":73250,"heading":""C hawks"","article":"In a time of war there are some people who it would be to the disadvantage of the nation to have them as part of the fighting force.\r\n\r\nEither because they have somthing better to do in the country, in particular some farmers doctors nurses and administration people for keeping the home land organized especially if it will be attacked. Also people who ar e physically handicaped or mentaly handicaped may also have reason to stay home. For example you would probably not want a person with one eye and dodgy vision in the other eye to have your back on a battlefield.\r\n\r\nBesides that do you really want people jumping in and out of your military depending on what wars they support?","author":"Scottie","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 05:06:02","modified":"2003-07-19 05:06:02","fileurl":""},{"id":73251,"heading":"Scottie, or another one...","article":"You don't want people who are not citizens of the USA or residents in the USA as part of the Armed Forces either do you?\r\n\r\nLMAO!\r\n \r\nand going to bed.........","author":"Rational Normal Person","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 05:09:59","modified":"2003-07-19 05:09:59","fileurl":""},{"id":73280,"heading":"Citizen Soldiers","article":"Yes I do want ordinary people to put on a Uniform and take up Arms - WHEN THE NEED ARISES TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY.\r\n\r\nNot because some Chicken Hawk Deserter in a Brooks Brothers Suit wants a few Million more in his Bank Account.\r\n\r\nThe function of the Military is to defend the Country against foreign agression not to make money for well connected psychopaths.\r\n\r\nDefense of the Nation is something which is a responsibility we all carry whether we wish to acknowledge it or not.\r\n\r\nSome of us chose to spend time in Uniform to help shoulder the burden of standing guard. I do not necessarily look down on someone who has not done so. I do object strongly to loudmouth cheerleading Chicken Hawks who were unwilling to help shoulder the burden, and the risk, but are perfectly willing to send others off to die in foreign wars which are not in the best interests of the Nation but exist only to protect or extend the financial holdings of someone wealthy enough to buy a Politician.\r\n\r\nSo, Scootie I do expect people to come and go as they choose to do service to the country. I do not expect them to die in Afghanistan for Good ol' Enron nor in Iraq for Chevron, Bechtel, or Halliburton.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 14:46:50","modified":"2003-07-19 14:46:50","fileurl":""},{"id":73348,"heading":"Well","article":"Being prepared to defend the country does involve a certain amount of political and physical positioning. A country that allows itself to be cut off from its resources or alienated from its allies or any other form of out manoeuvring during peace time is likely to suffer in war time. \r\n\r\nAs regards the chicken hawk argument you would presumably know for example that the commanding officers since hundreds of years ago tend to not be the very front of the fighting in order to prevent loss of control.\r\nA captain might order a "foot soldier" to go on a dangerous mission however he is presumably not a "chicken hawk" for not going himself. Or if he is then the term is of no value.\r\n\r\nAs regards the common argument that they send their children to fight as if this is inherently a good thing - Consider that a doctor is not supposed to operate on his own children because he would become too emotionally involved with the action.\r\nIE the emotional attachment that you are trying to produce is one that doctors have deemed to be inappropriate for decision making.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":73175,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 23:08:46","modified":"2003-07-19 23:08:46","fileurl":""}]}