{"article":{"id":72856,"heading":"Ron Paul's War with Socialists, Neo-Cons, and the U.N.","author":"Ron Paul","created":"2003-07-16 17:50:07","modified":"2013-11-11 00:23:57","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:23:57","article":"

ABOUT \"SOCIALISTS\"

---------------------------------------

What Happened to Conservatives?

Ron Paul, Texas Straight Talk, June 14, 2003

\"The so-called conservative movement of the last 20 years, starting with the Reagan revolution of the 1980s, followed by the 1994 Gingrich takeover of the House, and culminating in the early 2000s with Republican control of both Congress and the White House, seems a terrible failure today. Republicans have failed utterly to shrink the size of government; instead it is bigger and costlier than ever before. Federal spending spirals out of control, new Great Society social welfare programs have been created, and the national debt is rising by more than a half-trillion dollars per year. Whatever happened to the conservative vision supposedly sweeping the nation?

One thing is certain: those who worked and voted for less government, the very foot soldiers in the conservative revolution, have been deceived. Today, the ideal of limited government has been abandoned by the GOP, and real conservatives find their views no longer matter.

True limited government conservatives have been co-opted by the rise of the neoconservatives in Washington. The neoconservatives - a name they gave themselves - are largely hardworking, talented people who have worked their way into positions of power in Washington. Their views dominate American domestic and foreign policy today, as their ranks include many of the President’s closest advisors. They have successfully moved the Republican party away from the Goldwater-era platform of frugal government at home and nonintervention abroad, toward a big-government, world empire mentality more reminiscent of Herbert Hoover or Woodrow Wilson. In doing so, they have proven that their ideas are neither new nor conservative.

Modern neoconservatives are not necessarily monolithic in their views, but they generally can be described as follows:

-They agree with Trotsky’s idea of a permanent revolution

-They identify strongly with the writings of Leo Strauss

-They express no opposition to the welfare state, and will expand it to win votes and power

-They believe in a powerful federal government

-They believe the ends justify the means in politics - that hardball politics is a moral necessity

-They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive

-They believe certain facts should be known only by the political elite, and withheld from the general public

-They believe in preemptive war and the naked use of military force to achieve any desired ends

-They openly endorse the idea of an American empire, and hence unapologetically call for imperialism

-They are very willing to use force to impose American ideals

-They scoff at the Founding Father’s belief in neutrality in foreign affairs

-They believe 9\/11 resulted from a lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many

-They are willing to redraw the map of the Middle East by force, while unconditionally supporting Israel and the Likud Party

-They view civil liberties with suspicion, as unnecessary restrictions on the federal government

-They despise libertarians, and dismiss any arguments based on constitutional grounds

Those who love liberty, oppose unjustified war, and resent big-brother government must identify the philosophy that is influencing policy today. If the neoconservatives are wrong- and I believe they are- we must demonstrate this to the American people, and offer an alternative philosophy that is both morally superior and produces better results in terms of liberty and prosperity. It is time for true conservatives to retake the conservative movement.\"

see: http:\/\/www.house.gov\/paul\/tst\/tst2003\/tst071403.htm<\/a>

ABOUT THE UNITED NATIONS

---------------------------------------

Ron Paul Sucess! UN Bill HR 1146

By Kent Snyder

Our opportunity is at hand! We wanted a vote on Congressman Ron Paul’s H.R. 1146 (withdrawing the United States from the United Nations) and we got it.

The House will vote late this afternoon or early evening on H.R. 1146 as an amendment to H.R. 1950 - Foreign Relations Authorization Act. The amendment reads: \"Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, none of the funds authorized to be appropriated by this Act, may be obligated or expended to pay any United States contribution to the United Nations or any affiliated agency of the United Nations.\"

In plain language, that gets the U.S. out of the U.N. – no money, no membership.

This is not a dress rehearsal – this is your life. Put down your pencils, stop reading The New American and start contacting people...start with your U.S. representative and then spread the word. It’s time to stop talking about how bad the United Nations really is and do something about it: get the U.S. out of the U.N.!

Act now! Go to this site for more information.

Kent Snyder

The Liberty Committee

see: http:\/\/capwiz.com\/liberty\/mail\/oneclick_compose\/?alertid=2842501<\/a>



ABOUT THE LIBERTY COMMITTEE

------------------------------------------

Dear friend of liberty,

Four years ago, a small group of men and women, united by their determination to restore liberty in the United States, formed The Liberty Committee. These men and women recognized that socialists have, for decades, been actively involved in our national legislative process; patiently, methodically, relentlessly working to make us subjects of the government, instead of the government being subject to us. The founding members of The Liberty Committee came together to fight these collectivists and reclaim our country from their clutches.

The national legislative process, I readily admit, is complicated, frustrating and, at times, boring. The socialists, however, do not let this deter them from their objective. They understand the laws we live by come from this process, and that is why they are involved in it.

To counter the socialists, thousands of Americans who treasure freedom have become actively involved with us in the national legislative process. These Americans hail from every congressional district in the country. Nineteen of my U.S. House colleagues have also joined our cause by their participation in my Liberty Caucus.

We must be victorious against the socialists' authoritarian agenda. I invite you to join us in this fight. As our numbers grow, so grows our influence. Together, with my caucus of liberty-minded colleagues on Capitol Hill and thousands of freedom-loving Americans throughout our nation, we can defend and advance liberty for ourselves, our children, and future generations.

For liberty,

Ron Paul

see: http:\/\/www.thelibertycommittee.org\/about.htm<\/a><\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"The Office of U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, 203 Cannon HOB, Washington, DC 20515","phone":"(202) 225-2831","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"How trustworthy are "allies" who wish to remedy 9\/11 by getting "the U.S. out of the U.N.!" -- permanently alienating us from the rest of the world and humanity's struggle against poverty, disease, and ignorance.","numcomment":29,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/07\/72856.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":72900,"heading":"Re: Ron Paul's War...","article":"I usually agree with about half of what the Libertarian Party openly promotes. \r\n\r\nUnfortunately, the *other* half serves to reinforce my general opinion of the Party and many of its adherants: they are ultimately not promoters of liberty, but instead are promoters merely of liberty-for-themselves. \r\n\r\nNoam Chomsky has commented on this subject and I agree with him (as usual)...\r\n\r\n"The term I usually use [to describe myself] is "libertarian socialist," which is fairly standard usage in the anarchist tradition. Anarchism covers a pretty broad range. One major sector in Europe regarded itself as the libertarian wing of the socialist movement. Unfortunately, the term "libertarian" has a different usage in the United States, which departs from the tradition. Here the term "libertarian" means anarcho- capitalist." \r\n[found at http:\/\/www.zmag.org\/chomsky\/interviews\/9405-peaceworks.html ]\r\n\r\n"Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error. The idea of "free contract" between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke, perhaps worth some moments in an academic seminar exploring the consequences of (in my view, absurd) ideas, but nowhere else. \r\n\r\n"I should add, however, that I find myself in substantial agreement with people who consider themselves anarcho-capitalists on a whole range of issues; and for some years, was able to write only in their journals. And I also admire their commitment to rationality -- which is rare -- though I do not think they see the consequences of the doctrines they espouse, or their profound moral failings." \r\n[found at http:\/\/www.zmag.org\/chomsky\/interviews\/9612-anarchism.html ] ","author":"Mr Normal","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-16 21:52:27","modified":"2003-07-16 21:52:27","fileurl":""},{"id":73012,"heading":"Random Thoughts","article":"Libertarianism is not a monolithic movement. It is a movement held together by a set of general principles. As one might well expect when dealing with a group of people whose fundamental rational is individual liberty you are going to get a wide range of opinion on any given issue.\r\n\r\nA short Post is not the means by which to detail the general Philosopy of Libertarianism but If I were to summarize it from my point of view: \r\nIt is the belief that you the individual have an innate worth. That any society is composed of individuals, not groups or masses. That the function of Government is to do those chores which indivuals working together in voluntary cooperation find needful to maintain an orderly, not ordered, society, and no more. "That governments are instituted among men deriving their just power from the consent of the Governed." (Jefferson) \r\nIt is really a simple philosophy which opponents try to distort, misconstrue, and make more complex than need be. All the better to confuse I suppose.\r\nMost attacks I have seen against this fundamental premise of individual worth and dignity have been constructed by first distorting what Libertarianism is and then attacking the distorted image. Something which I would hope most of the people bothering to read this would be able to discern.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-17 15:32:08","modified":"2003-07-17 15:32:08","fileurl":""},{"id":73037,"heading":"Republicans & Libertarians","article":"What is the Relationship Between the Republican Liberty Caucus and the Libertarian Party?\r\n\r\nRecently the RLC has received some specific questions about our relationship with the Libertarian Party. RLC Treasurer Mike Holmes responds: \r\n\r\nQ: Is the RLC made up of 'card-carrying' LPers who work with the GOP because it may be more politically expedient or are we "defectors" who "can't give up their libertarian roots"? \r\n\r\nA: I'll attempt to answer this question though I reject in part one of the premises. Also, we have no real way of knowing how many members are "card carrying" LP members. \r\n\r\nI personally am a lifetime LP member, having done so for the incredibly cheap price of $100 in 1973. Chairman Clifford Thies also has a history with the LP as their former national treasurer. RLC founder Eric Rittberg was a longtime LP activist as were Executive Director Tom Walls, newsletter editor Phil Blumel, our counsel Alan Turin and Virginia RLC chair Rick Sincere. Some of us participate in local LP events and are delegates to the LP national convention. Other RLC board members were never members of the LP. \r\n\r\n...Our founding chairman was Roger MacBride, and a past chairman of the RLC was Ron Paul, and John Hospers is on our honorary advisory board. That's three out of seven LP Presidential candidates. We do not believe anyone has to worry about their "libertarian roots" by joining or working with the RLC. \r\n\r\nI will stack them up against anyone the Libertarian Party has to offer any day of the week. One might observe, rightly, that the RLC has always had the support of the intellectual soul of the Libertarian Party, judging from those just listed. ","author":"neither","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-17 16:50:30","modified":"2003-07-17 16:50:30","fileurl":""},{"id":73110,"heading":"Libertarians are:","article":"Advocates of legalizing drugs.\r\n\r\nAdvocates of free trade.\r\n\r\nPro-choice.\r\n\r\nnon-interventionists.\r\n\r\nAll of these are liberal Democratic platforms.","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 09:27:24","modified":"2003-07-18 09:27:24","fileurl":""},{"id":73111,"heading":"Don't forget...","article":"open immigration.\r\n\r\nThey should call themselves "Liberaltarians".","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 09:30:56","modified":"2003-07-18 09:30:56","fileurl":""},{"id":73120,"heading":"I spit on","article":"...RepubliCONs.\r\n\r\nWho claim they are for smaller government and then bankrupt the country with increased spending.\r\n\r\nWho claim to be patriotic but then take every opportunity to subvert the Constitution by expanding Federal Powers into every Nook and Cranny of our lives.\r\n\r\nWho claim to be on "G-d's" side but then advocate debauced policies of brutal butchery and imperial expansion.\r\n\r\nQuite a proud record, eh?","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 14:19:26","modified":"2003-07-18 14:19:26","fileurl":""},{"id":73128,"heading":"You must have mistaken us for Democrats.","article":"Way to defend your position. Ad hominem attacks always serve to support one's arguments.\r\n\r\nAlso, you should change your name. Diogenes combed the streets with a lantern, searching for an honest man. You appear to be anything but a man of integrity, as can be deduced from your above dissertation. You do the philosopher a great disservice by ruining his good name with your dogma.\r\n\r\nBut for the record, America is far from bankrupted. You exaggerate. \r\n\r\nSecondly, the increased spending under the current administration is mandated by the attacks of 9-11 and the war on terrorism. I fail to see how those extenuating circumstances could have resulted in anything but increased spending. Can you?\r\n\r\nAdditionally, please explain how your personal life has been affected by expansion of Federal Powers under the current administration. \r\n\r\nI won't even address the "subversion of the Constitution" nonesense you put forth, as it is nothing more than just that ... nonesense. As is your ranting about "policies of brutal butchery and imperial expansion."\r\n\r\nAnd when you're done addressing the facts of my rebuttal, you may then present your deductively reasoned disputation of why Libertarians are in fact not Liberal Democrats.\r\n\r\nThank you in advance for your courteous and respectful response.","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 15:20:47","modified":"2003-07-18 15:20:47","fileurl":""},{"id":73134,"heading":"And then!!","article":"...you are to jump through this burning hoop! Blindfolded! On rollerskates!\r\n\r\nDo it now or your arguement has no validity!! You will be vanquished to the furthest regions of internet hell (freerepublic? cnn?)!\r\n\r\nAlso, explain the theory of relativity, how it pertains to the speed of light and how both pertain to the bullshit flying out of the GOP's collective maw at 300 million meters per second! AND BE SPECIFIC!!!\r\n\r\nheh","author":"matt","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 16:53:10","modified":"2003-07-18 16:53:10","fileurl":""},{"id":73135,"heading":"Republicans: Neo-Con, Libertarian, Christian,etc SUCK!!!","article":"What is the Relationship Between the Republican Liberty Caucus and the Libertarian Party? Recently the RLC has received some specific questions about our relationship with the Libertarian Party. RLC Treasurer Mike Holmes responds: \r\n\r\nQ: Is the RLC made up of 'card-carrying' LPers who work with the GOP because it may be more politically expedient or are we "defectors" who "can't give up their libertarian roots"? \r\n\r\nA: I'll attempt to answer this question though I reject in part one of the premises. Also, we have no real way of knowing how many members are "card carrying" LP members. \r\n\r\nI personally am a lifetime LP member, having done so for the incredibly cheap price of $100 in 1973. Chairman Clifford Thies also has a history with the LP as their former national treasurer. RLC founder Eric Rittberg was a longtime LP activist as were Executive Director Tom Walls, newsletter editor Phil Blumel, our counsel Alan Turin and Virginia RLC chair Rick Sincere. Some of us participate in local LP events and are delegates to the LP national convention. Other RLC board members were never members of the LP. \r\n\r\nA survey we conducted in 1996-97 indicated that about a third of our members usually vote for the LP. I would estimate that probably fewer than half of our members were in the LP and less than 25% probably still are. We do get a large number of inquiries these days from LPers looking for more successful political endeavors. \r\n\r\nI reject the term "defectors" (as in "defectors from the LP") since one neither has to leave the LP to join the RLC nor is one defecting from anything by joining the RLC. It's not an either-or-choice.","author":"republicans suck","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 16:53:50","modified":"2003-07-18 16:53:50","fileurl":""},{"id":73136,"heading":"And your point?","article":"Libertarians are NOT Republicans. Ask any hardcore Republican. Libertarians are not Democrats ask any hardcore Democrat.\r\n\r\nBoth the Republicans and the Democrats at times support issues that are part of the Libertarian outlook. Where there is a convergence we can work together for the common good.\r\n\r\nExample:\r\n\r\nDemocrats are generally strong on issues of Civil Liberties. As a Libertarian I support those stands.\r\n\r\nRepublicans are generally for fiscal responsibility. As a Libertarian I support those stands.\r\n\r\nBoth however, are at times hypocritical on those issues. The Repbublicans have recently broke the budget feeding Pork to their constituents out of your pocket. Many Democrats voted for the unPatriot Act und Der Bureau of Homeland Sekurity. I do not compromise my principles to "be popular". Because I have principles my stands are generally consistent - although I do reserve the right to change my mind or even be inconsistent in a specific instance where I feel the good outweighs the bad. I do not go out of my way to antagonize people but if I disagree with a stand strongly enough you can count on a forcible rebuttal.\r\n\r\nOne of the spins frequently attempted to discredit the Libertarian point of view is represented by the above post. The implied lie is that because one individual or even several support one or the other Parties at a given moment that such a stand represents the view of ALL Libertarians. Such an implication is quite simply a Lie. Because SOME of any Group does something that does not mean it applies to ALL.\r\n\r\nFor example:\r\n\r\nSOME White People belong to the KKK.\r\nTherefore ALL White People belong to the KKK.\r\n\r\nWhich is obviously FALSE.\r\n\r\nBeware the traps and pitfalls set by Shills to Sow dissension.\r\n\r\nAs always I would encourage ALL to think for yourself.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 17:11:26","modified":"2003-07-18 17:11:26","fileurl":""},{"id":73142,"heading":"It's the Republicans, STUPID!","article":"These are all Republicans, and they are all part of the great big BUSH party.\r\n\r\nRon Paul\r\nRepublican-Libertarian\r\nLeaving the Libertarian Party\r\nhttp:\/\/www.cs.indiana.edu\/~hagerp\/leaving.htm\r\n\r\nDick Cheney\r\nRepublican-Neo-Con\r\nAll in the Neocon Family\r\nhttp:\/\/www.alternet.org\/story.html?StoryID=15481\r\n\r\nTom DeLay\r\nRepublican-Christian\r\nChristian Coalition's Road to Victory!\r\nhttp:\/\/christiancoalition.com\/becomeinformed\/pressreleases101602.html\r\n\r\nThey run Congress, the White House and soon the Supreme Court.\r\n\r\nGET IT?\r\n\r\nREGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME!","author":"republicans suck","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 18:16:18","modified":"2003-07-18 18:16:18","fileurl":""},{"id":73144,"heading":"You are the Libertarian's Judas Iscariot","article":""One of the spins frequently attempted to discredit the Libertarian point of view is represented by the above post. The implied lie is that because one individual or even several support one or the other Parties at a given moment that such a stand represents the view of ALL Libertarians."\r\n\r\nAll of those so called "spins" that were listed can be quickly deduced through a curt viewing of the National Libertarian Party website. Are you saying those items in fact are not fundamental planks of the Libertarian Party? How can you call yourself a Libertarian and then deny your own party platform?","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 18:24:42","modified":"2003-07-18 18:24:42","fileurl":""},{"id":73149,"heading":"Libertarianism is a viewpoint...","article":"...not a Party Platform.\r\n\r\nFurther I did not say that I disagree or agree with any individual planks in the Platform. When you imply that as assertion (the premise for your attack) you are basing your argument upon a falsehood.\r\n\r\nNow tell me ALL Republicans agree with every Plank in the Republican Party Platform. Yeah, right! ROFL!!!!!!\r\n\r\nOf course if you do so I will call you a liar - and I would be right to do so.\r\n\r\nAll Party Platforms are composed by a Committee.\r\nAll Party Platforms represent compromises between the members of the Committee. \r\nIndividual Planks are passed by majority vote. \r\nTherefore a Party Platform by definition is a Compromise.\r\nCorrollary: No one member of a Platform Committee is likely to support every Plank in the Platform they helped devise.\r\nCorrollary: No one individual member of said Party is likely to support every Plank in the Committee's Platform.\r\nCorrollary: It would be logically false to assume that any given member of a Party supports every Plank in the Party's Platform.\r\n\r\nOnce again you offer an argument which is Sophomoric and Simplistic. It is invalid.\r\n\r\nYou have \r\n\r\njust been\r\n\r\nDiogenized.","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:15:55","modified":"2003-07-18 19:15:55","fileurl":""},{"id":73152,"heading":"Not very effective is it? Diogenization, that is.","article":"Only one flaw in you logic.\r\n\r\nI never argued that every card carrying libertarian agrees with every libertarian party plank.\r\n\r\nI argued that the the Libertarian party planks are mostly the same as those of Liberal Democrats.\r\n\r\nYou really should pay attention.","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:30:34","modified":"2003-07-18 19:30:34","fileurl":""},{"id":73154,"heading":"Not true...","article":"...your last post before mine - to which I was responding has as it's implied Premise my agreement with those planks.\r\n\r\nTILT\r\n\r\nPlay Again?","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:33:08","modified":"2003-07-18 19:33:08","fileurl":""},{"id":73156,"heading":""Implied" premise?","article":"I didn't imply anything. \r\n\r\nI was very specific. \r\n\r\nI said Libertarian party principles are liberal. You never once effectually disputed this stated exposit. You just dismissed it as "spin". Then you began spinning.","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:43:46","modified":"2003-07-18 19:43:46","fileurl":""},{"id":73159,"heading":"????????","article":"i dont think that the libertarian party can be labeled as conservative or liberal\r\nYou guys are fighting over a definition.\r\nYou both need to state the borders of you argument and get down to the point.","author":"equal","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:48:38","modified":"2003-07-18 19:48:38","fileurl":""},{"id":73160,"heading":"i dont think so","article":"I argued that the the Libertarian party planks are mostly the same as those of Liberal Democrats. \r\n\r\nPlease list all contributing factors that lead to this conclusion.\r\nalso\r\nwhy would there even be a libertarian party then if they are the same?\r\n\r\nYour logic makes no sense "republican"\r\n\r\n","author":"watcher","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 19:52:04","modified":"2003-07-18 19:52:04","fileurl":""},{"id":73162,"heading":"3 of 7 Libertarian Pres. candidates were GOP members","article":"...Contrary to what the Libertarian Party propaganda would have you believe (and since I used to be their chief propagandist, I know something about this) the LP has no monopoly on the concept of libertarianism and merits recognition in the political marketplace only by virtue of their achievements, not some honorific claim to superiority.\r\n\r\nI believe many libertarians support both groups; the LP for reasons of radicalism (being able to promote a party platform that is purely libertarian), the RLC for reasons of practicality. However, there have always been libertarians active in the GOP (Robert Taft, Karl Hess and many others.) even though the GOP is not primarily a libertarian political party by any means. \r\n\r\n...Today, most of our members may vote for LP candidates from time to time (especially for President) but most haven't been active or even members of the LP. We appeal to constitutionalist, limited-government types of all kinds, including many who may describe themselves as principled conservatives. However, the RLC is open about calling ourselves the organized wing of the libertarian Republican movement. As small "l" and "soft" libertarians, we are not hung up about labels nor do we focus on excommunicating those whose libertarianism differs from ours or those libertarians who choose to emphasize mainstream issues instead of the controversial ones. We are about making libertarianism an asset, not a liability, in politics.\r\n\r\n-- Mike Holmes\r\nRepublican Liberty Caucus Treasurer \r\n& Libertarian Party member","author":"Mike Holmes, Libertarian & RLC Treasurer","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-18 20:11:33","modified":"2003-07-18 20:11:33","fileurl":""},{"id":73256,"heading":"Communism is the way to go!","article":"The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible. \r\n\r\nOf course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionizing the mode of production. \r\n\r\nThese measures will, of course, be different in different countries. \r\n\r\nNevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable. \r\n\r\n1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. \r\n\r\n2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. \r\n\r\n3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. \r\n\r\n4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. \r\n\r\n5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. \r\n\r\n6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state. \r\n\r\n7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. \r\n\r\n8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. \r\n\r\n9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. \r\n\r\n10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.\r\n\r\n","author":"Marxist","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-19 09:29:16","modified":"2003-07-19 09:29:16","fileurl":""},{"id":74310,"heading":"Libertarians Are Opposite of "Liberal" Demokrats","article":"It is true that today many libertarains seem confused on some issues, but it is unfair to say they are in favor of the "liberal" agenda. Just the reverse is true. Libertarains are more hard-core than most conservatives, but they have lost their original philosophical grounding of 30 years ago.\r\n\r\nNot all libertarians are "pro-choice" when it comes to the practice of abortion. They are divided on the subject. See Doris Gordon's site: Libertarians for Life <\/a>\r\n\r\nIt is not really true that non-interventionism is part of the Democrat agenda. Most Dems are for all sorts of interventionism, especially when they are in power.\r\n\r\nIt is true that libertarains are for repealing Prohibitionism. They contend that for people to be fully moral, they must be free to make their own choices. Most Democrats are not for doing away with drug prohibitionism as are libertarains and hard-core conservatives. The Left Liberals usually want to tax and regulate drugs, not deregulate and decriminalize them.\r\n\r\nMore Republicans favored freedom of American consumers to bujy imported goods than Democrats in both houses of Congress. So, even though libertarains do favor freedom of trade (at least with those countries and products not involving slave labor as is the case with Red China), it is not true that this is a peculiarly Democratic platform position. Marxist regimes such as that of Salvador Allende of Chile a few years aback, and virtually every other leftist national government, put extremely high tariffs in effect to the great hardship of their subject populations.\r\n ","author":"Eddie Willers","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 05:51:12","modified":"2003-07-25 05:51:12","fileurl":""},{"id":74320,"heading":"Spin it however you like Eddie.","article":""Libertarians Are Opposite of "Liberal" Demokrats"\r\n\r\nLike I said, Libertarian's:\r\n\r\nAdvocates legalizing drugs. \r\nAdvocates free trade. \r\nAdvocate a Pro-choice agenda. \r\nAre non-interventionists on foreign policy. \r\nAdvocate immigration and open borders.\r\n\r\nNow if anyone can give me a good reason why I should not shove all libertarians into my "liberal Democrat" shoe box and stick-it back under my bend, I'm ready to hear it.\r\n","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 09:34:34","modified":"2003-07-25 09:34:34","fileurl":""},{"id":74321,"heading":"Here, I'll elaborate.","article":"\u201cIt is true that today many libertarains seem confused on some issues, but it is unfair to say they are in favor of the "liberal" agenda.\u201d\r\n\r\nI don\u2019t think it\u2019s unfair. Here\u2019s why:\r\n\r\nLike I said, Libertarian's: \r\nAdvocates legalizing drugs. \r\nAdvocates free trade. \r\nAdvocate a Pro-choice agenda. \r\nAre non-interventionists on foreign policy. \r\nAdvocate immigration and open borders. \r\n\r\n\u201cJust the reverse is true. Libertarains are more hard-core than most conservatives, but they have lost their original philosophical grounding of 30 years ago.\u201d\r\n\r\nAnd here we have an example of the devil\u2019s greatest trick, \u201cconvincing you that he does not exits\u201d.\r\n\r\n\u201cNot all libertarians are "pro-choice" when it comes to the practice of abortion. They are divided on the subject. See Doris Gordon's site: Libertarians for Life \u201c\r\n\r\nAllow me to quote from the LP National website:\r\n\r\n\u201cWe hold that individual rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of sex. We call for repeal of all laws discriminating against women, such as protective labor laws and marriage or divorce laws which deny the full rights of men and women. We oppose all laws likely to impose restrictions on free choice and private property or to widen tyranny through reverse discrimination. \u201c\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.lp.org\/issues\/platform\/womerigh.html\r\n\r\n\u201cIt is not really true that non-interventionism is part of the Democrat agenda. Most Dems are for all sorts of interventionism, especially when they are in power.\u201d\r\n\r\nI never said \u201cDemocrat\u201d agenda. I said \u201cLiberal Democrat\u201d agenda. There\u2019s a difference. You\u2019d do well to figure that out.\r\n\r\n\u201cIt is true that libertarains are for repealing Prohibitionism.\u201d\r\n\r\nSo are liberal Democrats, generally.\r\n\r\n\u201cThey contend that for people to be fully moral, they must be free to make their own choices. Most Democrats are not for doing away with drug prohibitionism as are libertarains and hard-core conservatives. The Left Liberals usually want to tax and regulate drugs, not deregulate and decriminalize them.\u201d\r\n\r\nWho cares why they are for it? I don\u2019t. I could not care less about their twisted logic. They are just spinning the liberal Democrat platform and trying to repackage it using conservative lingo (morals). Illicit drug use is immoral, no matter how you spin it.\r\n\r\nAnd please feel to name any \u201chard-core conservative\u201d groups that want to legalize drugs. You MUST be high. \r\n\r\nOh, and neocon groups do not count as conservatives. Sorry.\r\n\r\n\u201cMore Republicans favored freedom of American consumers to bujy imported goods than Democrats in both houses of Congress.\u201d\r\n\r\nThere\u2019s a difference between free trade and regulated trade. Conservatives are NOT for putting American manufacturers out of business.\r\n\r\n\u201cSo, even though libertarains do favor freedom of trade (at least with those countries and products not involving slave labor as is the case with Red China), it is not true that this is a peculiarly Democratic platform position.\u201d\r\n\r\nAgain, you confuse \u201cDemocrat\u201d with \u201cliberal Democrat\u201d. Two distinct animals.\r\n\r\n\u201cMarxist regimes such as that of Salvador Allende of Chile a few years aback, and virtually every other leftist national government, put extremely high tariffs in effect to the great hardship of their subject populations.\u201d\r\n\r\nOf course socialist would have high tarrifs. They\u2019re the \u201cworker\u2019s party\u201d. But it doesn\u2019t simply stop with high duties. It would serve the good reader well to review the #2 rule (posted above) of Marxist-socialism:\r\n\r\n2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. \r\n\r\nMarxists not only would tax the piss out of imports, they\u2019d tax the piss out of you as well.\r\n\r\nWe're not talking about socialism. We're talking about liberal Democrats vs. Libertarians. Socialism in America is a joke. Liberals are too, but they're a sustained joke. In general, Liberals and neocons and Libertarians all want free trade.\r\n\r\n","author":"Republican","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 10:14:12","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:12","fileurl":""},{"id":74323,"heading":"Good post Republican","article":"I've been hoping that the Democrats would do something stupid and nominate a dangerous left wing extremist thereby guaranteeing GWB history's biggest landslide victory. Someone like Dean, Kucinich, or Sharpton would do nicely in that regard.\r\n\r\nHowever, it looks like they're likely to nominate the one sober candidate they have and the one with reasonable views toward Israel and the Middle East. If it goes this direction, Bush will still win but it won't be a runaway.\r\n\r\nHere's the latest AP Poll: \r\n\r\nLieberman leads Democratic hopefuls\r\n\r\nJoe Lieberman had the most support from Democratic voters in a national poll released Thursday, followed closely by Dick Gephardt, John Kerry and Howard Dean. \r\n\r\nLieberman, a Connecticut senator, was at 21% and Gephardt, a Missouri representative, was at 16% \u2014 just within the error margin of plus or minus 5 percentage points in the Quinnipiac University poll. \r\n\r\nKerry, a Massachusetts senator, was at 13% and Dean, a former governor of Vermont was at 10%. Other candidates in the nine-member field were at 6% or lower. More than a fifth, 21%, were undecided. \r\n\r\nIn several recent national polls, Lieberman, Kerry and Gephardt were grouped very close together at the top. Lieberman led early national polls, at least partially because of his higher name recognition. \r\n\r\nAs usual, if Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York is added to the field, she dominates, taking 48% to 11% for Lieberman, with others in single digits. \r\n\r\nThe poll of 372 Democrats was taken July 17-22. \r\nAssociated Press.","author":"Bush Admirer","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 11:18:29","modified":"2013-11-11 00:24:12","fileurl":""},{"id":74343,"heading":"Differences","article":"Democrats want to create an oppressive Socialist State where a Government Nanny tucks you into bed each night and kisses your owies.\r\n\r\nRepublicans want to create an oppressive Fascist Police State where the Government Thugs Burn your house and kick you down the stairs.\r\n\r\nLibertarians want you to tuck your own ass into bed and shoot the Government Thugs.","author":"Jester","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 12:53:56","modified":"2003-07-25 12:53:56","fileurl":""},{"id":74383,"heading":"Libertarians","article":"Should libertarians ever gain control, we'll be saying "Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss."\r\n\r\n","author":"Capitalist","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 16:11:54","modified":"2003-07-25 16:11:54","fileurl":""},{"id":74387,"heading":"Regime change begins at home - Dump the Chumps!","article":"Libertarians like Texas Congressman Ron Paul are just one sect of the Republican majority. Anyway you slice it, a Republican is a Republican and that's bad news for human-beings.\r\n\r\nDoesn't make much sense to get rid of Bush and then put another of his kind in his place.\r\n\r\nRegime change begins at home - Dump the Chumps!","author":"human","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 16:20:58","modified":"2003-07-25 16:20:58","fileurl":""},{"id":74390,"heading":"What is is about Freedom...","article":"...that scares you so much?","author":"Diogenes","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 16:38:59","modified":"2003-07-25 16:38:59","fileurl":""},{"id":74427,"heading":"You can't have Liberty if you're DEAD","article":"I love Freedom, and I will protecting it for the benefit all despite the greedy hands of "FREE-MARKETEERS" who would have bought humans as slaves, worked children and immigrants to death, buried toxic wastes, denied employment to non-whites and women, sexually harrass and physically abused the defenseless, and on and on...\r\n\r\nThat's why we have regulations, because of the ever present scum who view humans as a blank to be filled in the bottom line. \r\n\r\nLibertarians would let them run free, no questions asked, and remind their victims to take their chances in the courtroom if they believe the were harmed.","author":"human","parent_id":72856,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-07-25 18:36:10","modified":"2003-07-25 18:36:10","fileurl":""}]}