{"article":{"id":53019,"heading":"What We Want","author":"Bobalinga","created":"2003-04-24 07:21:53","modified":"2003-04-28 17:55:44","last_modified":"Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:55:44","article":"

Some of you might say: No way! I like, want like, peace and justice, ya know, not like bad stuff?

Quit being so naive.

Why do you think it is that every where radical revoluatonaries have gained power, what has followed was poverty, oppression, state sponsored violence against the poor, murder and absolutely no human progress.

You know, it happens the first time, in the USSR, and you can say: \"Alright. . . mistakes were made. Sorry 30 million murdered peasants. . . won't happen again.\"

You can even say about Mao: \"Well, you can't make an omelet without letting a few million peasants starve!!\"

But then when you look at the killing fields of Cambodia, the re-education centers of Vietnam (with one of the worst human rights records in the world), the oppression and poverty in Cuba and the government created famine in Zimbabwe. . .

Well, at some point you have to stop pretending these are mistakes.

It is NOT a coincidence, or a mistake, that the worst atrocities of the 20th century were perpetrated by radical revoluationaries. It is by design.<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"As progressive radical revolutionaries, we should make our demands clear: We want poverty, oppression, state sponsored violence against the poor, murder and absolutely no human development.","numcomment":30,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2003\/04\/53019.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":53072,"heading":"Born of Revolution","article":"Right-wingers always forget to include on their list of revolutions "gone wrong" that the United States itself was BORN OF REVOLUTION.\r\n\r\nYes, it was a flawed and imperfect revolution... but over many decades of struggle... Americans have continued to refine and expand their freedom struggle. That's an ongoing process and it continues right here on indymedia.\r\n\r\nThose who say that revolutions always end in failure are nothing short of being REDCOATS. They have the mindset of Colonial Masters who warn those they rule over... "don't even try it." Redcoats all, Tories all.","author":"free","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-24 13:29:36","modified":"2003-04-24 13:29:36","fileurl":""},{"id":53077,"heading":"free","article":"Bobalinga's obvious point is that MARXIST revolutions wind up being backward, murderous cesspools.\r\n\r\nUnless you really think the American Revolution was carried out by commies?","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-24 13:37:49","modified":"2003-04-24 13:37:49","fileurl":""},{"id":53083,"heading":"The American Revolution","article":"Imperfect as it was, was based upon ideals which are anathema to the left. . . self sovereignty, private property and individual rights.\r\n\r\nHence, our success where the others have failed.","author":"Bobalinga","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-24 15:25:06","modified":"2003-04-24 15:25:06","fileurl":""},{"id":53225,"heading":"Bobalinga","article":""...individual rights."\r\n\r\nIs state-mandated pregnancy "individual rights?" Is the government telling you what you can and can't do with your own central nervous system considered \r\n"individual rights?" You sure do have your head up your ass.","author":"Logic Coach","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 13:09:12","modified":"2003-04-25 13:09:12","fileurl":""},{"id":53244,"heading":"Logic Coach","article":"Way to change the subject!\r\n\r\nBut I'll bite...\r\n\r\nWhat about the aborted fetus' rights?\r\n\r\nOh...it's just a piece of meat, right? An inconvenience. Nothing to be troubled with; in a few minutes it's out and gone and maybe she'll cry a little bit but next week she'll be just fine. \r\n\r\nNever mind the fact that a human being was just killed.","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 13:23:32","modified":"2003-04-25 13:23:32","fileurl":""},{"id":53263,"heading":"daveman","article":""Way to change the subject!"\r\nLay off the aspartame, davie. I was merely addressing Bobalinga's comments.\r\n\r\n"What about the aborted fetus' rights?Oh...it's just a piece of meat, right? An inconvenience." \r\nOh, okay, I'll bite. What about ANIMAL rights? They're just pieces of meat, right? An inconvenience. You conservatives are TOTAL hypocrites.\r\n\r\nIs the government telling you what you can and can't do with your own central nervous system considered \r\n"individual rights?" \r\nWELL?","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 14:01:26","modified":"2003-04-25 14:01:26","fileurl":""},{"id":53475,"heading":"daveman","article":"What? No answer, daveman?","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 17:46:55","modified":"2003-04-25 17:46:55","fileurl":""},{"id":53480,"heading":"Buffy","article":""Lay off the aspartame, davie. I was merely addressing Bobalinga's comments."\r\n\r\nFair enough. My bad. (See how easy it is to admit you're wrong? You ought to try it sometime.)\r\n\r\n"Oh, okay, I'll bite. What about ANIMAL rights? They're just pieces of meat, right? An inconvenience. You conservatives are TOTAL hypocrites."\r\n\r\nOkay, that makes no sense. Last time I checked, animals aren't humans. Not to say that some humans can't be animals, but that's a different thread...\r\n\r\n"Is the government telling you what you can and can't do with your own central nervous system considered \r\n"individual rights?" \r\nWELL?"\r\n\r\nAgain, senseless. If you did a bit of research, you would find that fetuses are carried in uteri, not brains. \r\n\r\nYou lack of understanding about the differences between human and animals, and about human reproduction, is simply astounding. ","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 17:54:47","modified":"2003-04-25 17:54:47","fileurl":""},{"id":53501,"heading":"daveman","article":""Fair enough. My bad. (See how easy it is to admit you're wrong? You ought to try it sometime.)"\r\nWhen I'm wrong, I admit it.\r\n\r\n"Okay, that makes no sense. Last time I checked, animals aren't humans. Not to say that some humans can't be animals, but that's a different thread..."\r\nOh, so are you saying that you're a speciesist? \r\n\r\n"Again, senseless. If you did a bit of research, you would find that fetuses are carried in uteri, not brains. "\r\nI was talking about DRUGS, you nutcase.\r\n\r\nYour lack of understanding about ANYTHING is simply astounding.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 18:20:34","modified":"2003-04-25 18:20:34","fileurl":""},{"id":53621,"heading":"My philosophy","article":"Alcohol good. Drugs bad.","author":"Typical Conservative","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 21:48:32","modified":"2003-04-25 21:48:32","fileurl":""},{"id":53627,"heading":"Buffy","article":"'"Again, senseless. If you did a bit of research, you would find that fetuses are carried in uteri, not brains. " \r\nI was talking about DRUGS, you nutcase.'\r\n\r\nAnd this is so obvious because you wrote:\r\n'Is state-mandated pregnancy "individual rights?" Is the government telling you what you can and can't do with your own central nervous system considered \r\n"individual rights?"'\r\nFeel free to fry your brains, Buffy...assuming you have any left.\r\n\r\n"Oh, so are you saying that you're a speciesist?"\r\nUnabashadly so. The fact that you think it's an insult makes me revel in it that much more. ","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:00:02","modified":"2003-04-25 22:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":53628,"heading":"And Buffy's best line...","article":""When I'm wrong, I admit it."\r\n\r\nYou're overdue, Buffy.","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:01:27","modified":"2003-04-25 22:01:27","fileurl":""},{"id":53630,"heading":"davemoron","article":""Feel free to fry your brains, Buffy...assuming you have any left."\r\n\r\nThat's rich, coming from someone who thought a question dealing with the CNS was about ABORTION. All of that animal fat must be choking off the oxygen supply to that pea-sized brain of yours, davey. Try enrolling in a remedial biology course.","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:06:07","modified":"2003-04-25 22:06:07","fileurl":""},{"id":53631,"heading":"davemoron","article":"It IS odd that you chose NOT to address the drugs question. NOT.","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:07:00","modified":"2003-04-25 22:07:00","fileurl":""},{"id":53643,"heading":"Buffy","article":"You brought up abortion, Buffy.\r\n\r\nDrugs?\r\nDo all you want. But don't drive under the influence, operate heavy machinery, or attempt to engage in rational conversation.\r\n\r\nWe've all seen what THAT looks like, and it's not pretty.","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:25:48","modified":"2003-04-25 22:25:48","fileurl":""},{"id":53650,"heading":"davemoron","article":""Drugs? Do all you want"\r\n\r\nHey, they're against the law! You know, part of that "limited government" you conservatives are always preaching about.\r\n\r\n"...or attempt to engage in rational conversation."\r\n\r\nYou shouldn't do this SOBER, either. We've all seen what THAT looks like, and it's not pretty.\r\n","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-25 22:31:57","modified":"2003-04-25 22:31:57","fileurl":""},{"id":53703,"heading":"hey it's don rickles","article":"good one douchebag. I like the part when you insult his intelligence "even when he's sober" hahahahahaha stop please. ha ha no really stop.","author":"big fan","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 02:17:01","modified":"2003-04-26 02:17:01","fileurl":""},{"id":53728,"heading":""Against the law"?","article":"Buffy, surely a person as enlightened as yourself wouldn't let the law get in the way of higher principles.\r\n\r\nSuch as, "Duuuuuuude...this is really wicked weed!"\r\n\r\nand \r\n\r\n"Man, let's go to Denny's...I got the munchies!" \r\n\r\nSometimes you just have to do what's right and \r\ntake a stand for your right to be a chemically altered butthead.","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 05:11:24","modified":"2003-04-26 05:11:24","fileurl":""},{"id":53777,"heading":"daveman","article":""...butthead."\r\n\r\nI just love your childish insults. So, is the "war on drugs" limited government? Come on, you good conservative, you. You're supposed to be in favor of "limited government," yet it is you conservatives who want to tell everyone what they can and can't do with their own bodies. \r\n","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 12:19:16","modified":"2003-04-26 12:19:16","fileurl":""},{"id":53779,"heading":"clarify","article":"Limited government, Yes. Irresponsible governement, No. ","author":"c","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 12:22:50","modified":"2003-04-26 12:22:50","fileurl":""},{"id":53784,"heading":"c","article":"And just what is your definition of "irresponsible government?"","author":"Hypocrite Slayer","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 12:32:51","modified":"2003-04-26 12:32:51","fileurl":""},{"id":53787,"heading":"Personally, Buffy,","article":"...I don't care what you do with your body, as long as you don't endanger other people. If you need chemicals to make your life worth living, you do what you gotta.\r\n\r\nAnd it's you Liberals who want to tell everyone what to do with their own money.","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-26 12:35:27","modified":"2003-04-26 12:35:27","fileurl":""},{"id":53955,"heading":"speciesist","article":"Those bacteria are too nice.. no more anti biotics for Hypocrite slayer.. (or vitamin C etc..)\r\nhe is soo NOT a Hypocrite","author":"Scottie","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 06:07:07","modified":"2003-04-28 06:07:07","fileurl":""},{"id":53983,"heading":"polar politics","article":"--- You know, part of that "limited government" you conservatives are always preaching about. \r\n\r\n\r\nAhh the disadvantages of a two party system...\r\nBig government is not bad you just have to be able to trust it not to do stupid things.","author":"Scottie","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 08:45:26","modified":"2003-04-28 08:45:26","fileurl":""},{"id":53988,"heading":" the worst atrocities of the 20th century were perpetrated by radical revoluationaries?","article":"Lets look at the good ole' US of A........\r\n\r\nAtrocities?\r\nPeople killed by US aggression\r\n\r\nIndochina..........2 million killed \r\n\r\nVietnam............2 million\r\n\r\nIraq.................2 million\r\n\r\nIndonesia..........1 million\r\n\r\nSoutheast asia........2 million\r\n\r\nGuatemala.............80,000\r\n\r\nEl Salvador...........30,000\r\n\r\nHungary.............30,000\r\n\r\nIndia...............18,000\r\n\r\nAfganistan........10,000\r\n\r\nPanama.........7,000\r\n\r\nto my count its 8,165,000\r\nDead by democracy.\r\n\r\n","author":"systemfailure","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 09:27:16","modified":"2003-04-28 09:27:16","fileurl":""},{"id":53989,"heading":"SF","article":"Got links?","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 09:30:10","modified":"2003-04-28 09:30:10","fileurl":""},{"id":53992,"heading":"heres a few","article":"You'll have to use common sense in deliberating what southeast asia means-korea etc\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.americanstateterrorism.com\/ChronologyofTerror.html#Guatemala\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/www.zmag.org\/GlobalWatch\/chomskymit.htm\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/users.erols.com\/mwhite28\/warstatz.htm#u","author":"sytemfailure","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 10:06:40","modified":"2003-04-28 10:06:40","fileurl":""},{"id":53995,"heading":"Your links...","article":"...are questionable. \r\n\r\nThe first two, at any rate; the third one timed out on me.\r\n\r\nThe americanstateterrorism site is filled with inflammatory language and downright hate speech. To me, that makes the claims presented suspect. The site is hardly a dispassionate reporter of fact. \r\n\r\nNoam Chomsky, as well, has an anti-America agenda.\r\n\r\nOkay, the third site came up. Interesting. I will use this link to rebut.\r\n\r\nYou list Indochina and the Vietnam war as 2 million each. But they are in fact the same war. Subtract 2 million from your count.\r\n\r\nIraq, 2 million. Most of those deaths are attibuted to the sanctions, which were approved by the UN. Share the blame. Better yet, put it all where it belongs: on Saddam's head. Had he spent the proceeds of the oil-for-food program on his people instead of palaces and WMD, a vast majority of those Iraqis would not have died. Subtract 1.75 million.\r\n\r\nIndonesia: Nothing attibuted to the US. Subtract 1 million.\r\n\r\nSE Asia: Same as Iraq. Subtract 2 million.\r\n\r\nGuatemala: Nothing attributed to US. Subtract 80,000.\r\n\r\nEl Salvador: Nothing attributed to the US. Subtract 30,000.\r\n\r\nHungary: Nothing attributed to the US. Subtract 30,000.\r\n\r\nIndia: Nothing attributed to the US. I assume you're counting the Bhopal disaster; discounted due to no governmental involvement. Industrial accident. Subtract 18,000.\r\n\r\nAfghanistan: Military deaths (Al Qaeda and Taliban): 5,000. The Guardian estimates 19,840 indirect civilian deaths; median indirect civilian deaths total around 1,500. Total: 26,340.\r\n\r\nPanama: Average of estimates, civilian and military: 1,300. Subtract 5,700 from your total.\r\n\r\nBy my count, 1,267,640 dead. Kinda pales in comparison to the 100,000,000 dead by communism, doesn't it?\r\n\r\nWhen posting links to back up any position, we should all avoid those that are rabidly presentling information with lots of scare words and hate speech. We will change no one's mind with these, and will not convince anyone sitting on the fence. \r\n ","author":"daveman","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 11:13:00","modified":"2003-04-28 11:13:00","fileurl":""},{"id":54033,"heading":"blame","article":"The problem is also their atributing of blame.\r\nIt would be easy enough to attribute any death to a government or government policy.\r\n\r\nIn any chain of events if you look back far enough you will find the country you want as part of it.. then you can call them your "root cause" and ignore anything further back.\r\n\r\nFor example the good "old man is killed in country by police" "police work for government" "government recives some small amount of money from US" "US is responsible!!"","author":"Scottie","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 17:37:35","modified":"2003-04-28 17:37:35","fileurl":""},{"id":54036,"heading":"Yes Scottie","article":"Yes, and if you follow this logic through then the Soviet Union is ultimately responsible for ALL of these deaths because the US would not have proactively intervened in other countries if it didn't see the USSR as an agressive imperialist threat.\r\n\r\nEvil begets evil.","author":"Josef","parent_id":53019,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-04-28 17:55:44","modified":"2003-04-28 17:55:44","fileurl":""}]}