{"article":{"id":24583,"heading":"Anarcho-Leninist 'Debate on the State' is picking up steam","author":"Ben Seattle","created":"2002-12-24 07:09:06","modified":"2013-11-10 23:48:00","last_modified":"Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:48:00","article":"

http:\/\/struggle.net\/ALDS\r\n\r\nRound one of the debate is over. Round two will be beginning\r\nsoon.\r\n\r\nListed here is an index and brief description of the debate\r\ninstallments and the relevant essays that have been contributed\r\neither by readers or by the debate participants themselves. These\r\ndebate installments and essays will be \"broadcast\" to selected\r\nprogressive email lists and Indymedia.org web sites in the period\r\nahead.\r\n\r\nReaders are invited to come to the debate web site and rate the\r\ninstallments and essays for relevance, insightfulness,\r\nevasiveness and polemical decency using our automated polls and\r\nour high-tech \"bullshit meter\". The debate site is engineered so\r\nthat you can publically post your comments and questions for the\r\nworld to see.\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nThe debate question:\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n. In the period immediately following\r\n. a successful mass uprising against the bourgeoisie,\r\n. should the form (or forms) of organization\r\n. adopted by the proletariat to secure its ultimate liberation\r\n. be understood to be a state?\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nThe debate motto:\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n. Do you have ideas\r\n. --or--\r\n. Do ideas have you ?\r\n\r\n============================================================\r\nFormal Debate -- Round 1\r\n============================================================\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nPart 1 • Ben • Oct 5 • 3500 words\r\n. Without the goal of a state machine\r\n. controlled by the working class\r\n. we might as well proclaim that\r\n. bourgeois rule will last\r\n. until the stars refuse to shine\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n• Why is this question at the center of the struggle\r\n. to create a revolutionary movement\r\n. that is more than hot air?\r\n• Why will the working class need a state?\r\n• Who will control the mass media?\r\n• The separation of speech and property\r\n• My first question for Daniel\r\n• Notes: • \"dual power\" • successful alternatives under bourgeois\r\n. rule (Linux, AA) • separation of speech and property\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nPart 2 • Ben • Oct 12 • 2800 words\r\n. The real reason for\r\n. the stink about the state\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n• My second question for Daniel\r\n• The history of previous attempts to create a workers' state\r\n• A transparent machine\r\n• The universal sectarian answer to all difficult questions\r\n• Popularity of anarchism is the inevitable result of the\r\n. theoretical bankruptcy of \"Marxist\" and \"Leninist\" groups\r\n• Cleaning up \"marxism\"\r\n• Notes: • reformism • cargo cult Leninism\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nPart 3 • Ben • Oct 13 • 3100 words\r\n. A scenario for the overthrow\r\n. of bourgeois rule in the U.S. in\r\n. the middle of the 21st century\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n • Why is a scenario important?\r\n • Here is the scenario\r\n • The most powerful idea of the present epoch\r\n • My third question for Daniel\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nPart 4 • Daniel • Nov 11 • 6600 words\r\n. An Anarchist Replies\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n• Me, my motivations, and my basic argument\r\n• Ben's Questions\r\n• Its time for one of us to answer the debate question\r\n• My Question for Ben\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nRound 2 begins soon ...\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n============================================================\r\nRelevant Essays\r\n============================================================\r\n\r\nRelevant or interesting essays either by the debate participants\r\nthemselves or others with something worthwhile to say\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n. List of essays not by Ben --\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n. Because most of the essays are by Ben Seattle,\r\n. essays by other authors are highlighted here:\r\n\r\nEssay # 161 • Yhcrana Strikes Back! • December 14 • 1500 words\r\n. A Critical Analysis of Ben Seattle’s\r\n. \"The Future Transparent Workers’ State\"\r\n\r\nEssay 158 • Scotch Wallace replies to Ben's Part 1 • Nov 5\r\n. A DeLeonist defends Revolutionary Cooperatives • 1100 words\r\n\r\nEssay 156 • Floyce White • Oct 1 • 1100 words\r\n. Communism Means Communes\r\n\r\nEssay 155 • Yhcrana's reply to Ben • Oct 26 • 950 words\r\n. The Fallacy of the \"Proletarian State\"\r\n\r\n============================================================\r\n- All Essays --\r\n============================================================\r\n\r\n. The origin of many of these essays are replies\r\n. to questions asked by visitors to this site.\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 151 • Ben's reply to Irving (part 1) • Oct 14 • 1000 words\r\n. The future proletarian state and the media\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nIrving asked: \"Ben, if your so-called \"proletarian state\"\r\ncontrols the media (ie, printing presses, paper supply, airwaves,\r\netc.) isn't it logical to assume that, given the nature of every\r\nstate to make self-preservation its primary concern, you state\r\nwill either deny or put roadblocks in the way of those it deems\r\n\"enemies of the state\" (ie, anarchists and\/or other socialist\r\nparties) to freely utilize the media? This is the experience of\r\nthe Boshevik (counter) Revolution, is it not?\"\r\n\r\nIn Part 1 Ben replies concerning the future:\r\n• high \"labor ratio\" media vs. low \"labor ratio\" media\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 152 • Ben's reply to Irving (part 2) • Oct 16 • 1900 words\r\n. Why did Lenin suppress all competing trends\r\n. after the civil war ended in 1920?\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nIn Part 2 Ben replies concerning the past:\r\n• back from the dead\r\n• smashing the equation\r\n• why did they do it?\r\n• \"thank you very much but you are no longer needed\"\r\n• workers' state not possible without democratic rights\r\n• suppression of political trends not possible under modern\r\n. conditions\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 153 • Ben's reply to Eric • Oct 20 • 3300 words\r\n. Politics, Economics and the Mass Media\r\n. when the working class runs the show\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nEric asked: \"Under the worker's state you envision, do the\r\nmajority of people still read\/listen to\/watch mass media? If so,\r\nhow is the worker's state prevented from controlling content of\r\nmass media to help continue its own existence? I guess I'm pretty\r\nunclear on what the organization of the worker's state would be.\"\r\n\r\nBen's reply describes:\r\n• competition between multiple political parties\r\n• Contradictions in society:\r\n. • consumption vs. investment\r\n. • local vs. international\r\n. • ecosystems vs. development\r\n. • gift economy vs. other sectors\r\n• Will there be elections?\r\n• The three economic sectors:\r\n. • private capitalist • state capitalist • gift economy\r\n• The evolution of the mass media\r\n. • commercial media • state media • free media\r\n• The interaction of the different media sectors\r\n• Does this look like bourgeois rule?\r\n• (added November 3) Economic sectors in the transition period\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 154 • Ben's reply to Yhcrana • Oct 20 • 1000 words\r\n. How will workers control production?\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nYhcrana asked: \"Vanguardist communists often argue that because\r\nthe vanguard party is comprised of \"working class\" people,\r\nplacing production under state control and under working class\r\ncontrol is the same thing. However, this isn’t true. Once a\r\nworking class person occupies a position of power within the\r\nstate, their working class status has automatically been negated.\r\nInstead, vanguardist communism places production under the\r\ncontrol of officials who formerly belonged to the working class.\r\nEssentially, it replaces one ruling class with another. How would\r\nBen respond to this?\"\r\n\r\nBen replies: Workers' control is not possible without fundamental\r\nright to independent agitation and organization • state control\r\nis not workers' control\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 155 • Yhcrana's reply to Ben • Oct 26 • 950 words\r\n. The Fallacy of the \"Proletarian State\"\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n• Worker influence on vs. control of the State\r\n• Capitalism, per se, is not the enemy\r\n• Regarding \"vanguardist communism\"...\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 156 • Floyce White • Oct 1 • 1100 words\r\n. Communism Means Communes\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nA former \"Marxist-Leninist\" finds renewed inspiration in\r\nthe Paris and Shanghai Communes of 1871 and 1927\r\nwhich got things done using \"anti-organization\"\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 157 • Ben replies to Red Star 2000 • Nov 2 • 1500 words\r\n. Liberating ourselves from darkness\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nredstar2000 asked: \"What evidence is there that capitalist\r\n'democracies' would ever allow a genuine workers' party to even\r\nthreaten to win an election? • How does our use of the net hope\r\nto compete with the entertainment\/distraction provided on the net\r\nby the capitalist class?\"\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 158 • Scotch Wallace replies to Ben's Part 1 • Nov 5\r\n. A DeLeonist defends Revolutionary Cooperatives • 1100 words\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nScotch is an activist working in Brazil with the MTL (rough\r\ntranslation: Land for Workers and Liberty Movement) that has\r\nlaunched several revolutionary cooperatives that have become, he\r\nnotes, centers of \"organization and class struggle\". Scotch\r\nwrites: \"I certainly agree that the working class will need a\r\nmachine, an organization. I further agree that the working class\r\nhad better take hold of the capitalist state, and I can only see\r\nthis happening through a working class political movement. The\r\nonly problem is that the capitalist state is something that was\r\ndesigned to be useful to the capitalist class, and is of dubious\r\nutility to the working class. We had better begin to build our\r\nmachine before we take control of the state. [...] The DeLeonists\r\nhave an interesting point of view on this question. They\r\ncertainly occupy the middle ground between the Leninists and\r\nanarchists on this question.\"\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay 160 • Ben gets brutal • December 11 • 8800 words\r\n. The Future Transparent Workers' State\r\n. Will a workers' state be a brutal police state\r\n. or a machine controlled by workers?\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nBen's first and second laws drive a stake thru the heart of the\r\ngreat fear nourished by anarchists and social-democrats alike.\r\nBen also explains how all the sturm und drang about historical\r\nevents of the 1920's and 1930's is rooted in the antagonist\r\ncompetition, today, for the warm, living bodies of activists.\r\nThere is also a nice exposition on the nature and workings of the\r\nlocal left ecosystem.\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\nEssay # 161 • Yhcrana Strikes Back! • December 14 • 1500 words\r\n. A Critical Analysis of Ben Seattle’s\r\n. \"The Future Transparent Workers’ State\"\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\n\"When the potential for a workers’ state to result in\r\ndictatorship is considered alongside the fact that statism will\r\nnaturally create conflicting class interests, we must conclude\r\nthat such a state cannot possibly be used to the advantage of the\r\nworking class. And when we consider this conclusion alongside the\r\nfact that the workers themselves are perfectly capable of\r\norganizing a just society, then it becomes glaringly obvious that\r\nanarchism offers the working class a far more favourable system\r\nfor social change than does Leninism or any other vanguardist\r\nideology.\"\r\n\r\n============================================================\r\nWhat do YOU think ?\r\n============================================================\r\n\r\nVisit the debate site at http:\/\/struggle.net\/ALDS\r\n\r\n• Read the debate\r\n• Rate the installments (using polls or our \"bullshit meter\")\r\n• Post your own public comments and questions\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n. Do you have ideas\r\n. --or--\r\n. Do ideas have you ?\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nSincerely and with revolutionary regards,\r\nBen Seattle\r\n----\/\/-\/\/ 20.Dec.2002\r\nhttp:\/\/struggle.net\/Ben (my elists \/ theory \/ infrastructure)\r\n\r\nSend email to: pof-100-subscribe@yahoogroups.com\r\nNo Spam!--Just 2 emails a year to keep you updated about my work<\/p>\n","contact":"","link":"http:\/\/struggle.net\/ALDS","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/html","summary":"If another world is possible--then why can't anyone describe it in a way that is realistic?\u00a0 What is our vision of the future? Competing ideas exist among progressive activists.\u00a0How do we sort out what is correct and overcome the "crisis of theory" that has paralyzed the movement for a better world?\u00a0 Our future world needs us to create today calm, scientific debate that is open to all activists. It is now happening ... The "Anarcho-Leninist Debate on the State" is beginning to take shape and attract talent ...","numcomment":0,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2002\/12\/24583.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[]}