\r\nWe talked to Alice from Chumbawumba towards the end of\r\nseptember 2002 on Stvanice, shortly before their concert at the Music Beats\r\nLocal Nazi festival. There were three of us, Alex, Slavek, and Mara.\r\nSlavek had a cola, Mara and Alex had a beer, Alice had a whiskey and\r\ncoke. We sat on the floor in a dark hallway which was the quietest place\r\nto record. At first there were some rather funny difficulties with the\r\nrecorder, but we managed to work them out, and here's what we\r\nrecorded:<\/b> <\/p>
\r\nMARA: it vibrated but he missed it!<\/b>(difficulties with recorder\r\n-ed;-)<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Oh, never mind.<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: What are you doing in Prague?<\/b> <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Let's sit down.<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: good idea. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: We've come to play this anti-racist festival (Music Beats\r\nLocal Nazi). I've never come across an anti-racist festival which\r\napproaches from the angle of \"O.k. we're gonna try to do something\r\nthat's really human.\" Whether you agree with violence or not, it's an\r\ninteresting approach. Because it brings up the problem that Nazis are\r\nreal people. It's also interesting for us, we've got an anti-fascist\r\nsection in our set. One of the songs ends on \"I'll never rest alive\r\nuntil every Nazi dies,\" and the other one has a chorus which gives the\r\nfascist man a gunshot, which we're playing here. People think the only\r\nway you can be an anti-fascist is to be a street fighter. This image of\r\nhuge young males, fighting on the street, no place for people that feel\r\nvulnerable in that position, who have different things to contribute.\r\nBeing a revolutionary doesn't necessarily mean getting out in the\r\nstreets. there's loads of different things you can do, whether it's\r\npushing ideas, or doing things with friends or where you work, or\r\nsetting up things in the community... <\/p>
\r\nALEX: Or having fun...<\/b>\r\n<\/p>
\r\nALICE<\/b>: Yeah, or having fun. Politics shouldn't just be a duty.\r\nI really like this place because its free. When I was wandering round\r\nearlier, I found a building at the end that's got settees. Oh,\r\nfantastic! I'll go sit down and chill out there later. Normally when we\r\ngo to festivals, I have to watch loads of crap rock bands that are all\r\nblokes. \"O.k., all right, there's a beer tent and it's horrible.\"\r\nWhereas this has got a political context. It's got a nice environment\r\nand loads of different cultural things going on. Quite often things that\r\nhave a political context are mired in some sort of ghetto, so people\r\nthink it's just punk rock. Here you have these Brazilian dancers who\r\nare gonna do an 18th century slave dance, a form of martial arts that\r\nthe slaves developed as a form of resistance. You never get that at a\r\nfestival in England. You'd be fighting your way through guitars. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: I've liked how people are reading the wonderful displays that\r\nare set up, and really bieng moved by them...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Did you see the picture of the baby with the handcuffs?\r\nIt's a bit disturbing isn't it? <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: I haven't looked at a lot of it yet. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: There's an antifascist poster with a really tiny baby\r\nlying on its stomach with a pair of handcuffs on its back, as in \"You\r\ncondemn your kids to that.\" You look at it and think, \"Christ, what's\r\nthat?\" You never get that at a normal festival, I find it really\r\ndisturbing, but I like the fact that it's there.<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: How does the relationship between Capitalism, Sexism, and\r\nRacism relate your anti-Capitalist views?<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: We originally come from Birmingham, where they've just\r\nelected three Nazis to town council. The Nazis got in by exploiting\r\npeoples fears and their poverty. All the jobs moved out of Birmingham\r\nin the '70's. In the initial wave of shutdowns, Birmingham lost its\r\nindustry. So it's been suffering from a heroin epidemic since the '70's.\r\nThere's massive social deprivation and all the things that come with\r\nthat, like incest and awful problems. The racists have said, \"Well, the\r\nreason that you've got all these problems is because you're letting\r\nasylum seekers in, because we've got blacks in our town.\" In fact, the\r\nreason that people have got all these problems is that in the 70's\r\ncapital decided that people had too much power in the workplace, you had\r\nall these wildcat strikes. They said \"Ok we've got to do a turn on\r\nthis,\" so you got Thatcherism coming in '81. The people voting for the\r\nNazis truly believe that they're living in absolute fear wondering\r\nwho's gonna burgle them next, because two miles down the road there's an\r\nasylum seeker - who they don't know, and are never gonna meet.\r\nCapitalism scapegoats somebody with no power. The Nazis pick that up\r\nfor their own reasons. For the Nazis it's a way of having power in a\r\nsociety where they feel powerless, it's that white-trash mentality. \"At\r\nleast there's somebody under me.\"<\/p>
\r\n\r\nFor me the fantastic thing about the anti-globalization movement is all\r\nthese diverse interests coming together and becoming a movement. The \r\n'80's were a complete mess. People got mired in single issues. You had\r\npeople who were INTO animal rights and JUST into animal rights, and\r\nnothing else mattered \"I don't like abortion, because I'M into animal\r\nrights, and if the animal's sacred, then the fetus....\" <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: Idealistically framed...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n <\/p>
\r\nALICE<\/b>: Religiously framed, all about denial, all about saving\r\nsomebody, when the reason to be political is to save your own\r\nlife. Eastern philosophies are so fucking popular because people think\r\n\"Right, there's something wrong with the world, I can't understand what\r\nit is, maybe if I chant.\" Instead of actually studying Western\r\nphilosophy and capitalist economies to work out why life is as it is,\r\nbecause that's what we're living under, they read some mystic book. \"The\r\nanswer's gonna come from from the East.\" It seems mad to me. In some\r\nways it's easier, \"Well I don't actually have to move into the outside\r\nworld, all I have to do is sit in front of this dresser with some beads\r\nin my hand.\" <\/p>
\r\n\r\nMARA: Do you think that capitalism is sexist in some ways?<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: I don't think Capitalism has any influence at all. I think\r\nit bends in the wind. It has to survive and carry on making a profit. So\r\nif sexism is no longer profitable, it'll abandon sexism. In the same way\r\nthat the World Bank and the IMF are saying \"Actually, we're quite\r\nbenevolent. We'll let you not pay back some of your debts.\" They'll find\r\nanother way to grab the money back. Capitalism does whatever it has to\r\ndo to stay in power, I don't think it has an ethos. It's core ethos is\r\nthat it must carry on making a profit. And if that means giving people a\r\nfew rights here and there, it'll do it. But it'll take them away\r\nsomewhere else. I think that it's racist and sexist as a by-product. \r\nIf you're gonna exploit people, then people need to feel powerless.<\/p>
\r\n<\/p>
\r\nMARA: That's where racism and sexism start...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Yeah, because they need to be in a position where people\r\nthink \"I can't organize against working in a factory in Thailand for 16\r\nhours a day, for 60 cents a day.\" <\/p>
\r\n\r\nMARA: \"But I can beat the shit out of a black man.\"<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: The whole thing is that people need to be powerless. Once\r\npeople start to gain power, it's like what happened to Britain in the\r\n'70's. It?s much easier to fight back when you're feeling optimistic and\r\nhopeful. In the 70's they was a real Union movement, where people had\r\nwildcat strikes, demanded less working hours, more money, and Capitalism\r\nhad to adjust. The reason we have the 40 hour week isn't because\r\nCapitalism is benevolent, it's because people fought for it. The reason\r\nthat we have any welfare state at all (which is going), is that people\r\ncame back after the Second World War, still armed, \"OK we want a land\r\nfit for heroes. We haven't got one, so we'll fucking fight for it!\"\r\nCapitalism realized that every so often you've got to give out a few\r\nprizes. We make a mistake in thinking that capitalism is all powerful, \r\nin always reacting to it. I look at it as the Italian Autonomists look\r\nat it: Capital is reacting to us. It's always on the run from us, it's\r\nalways in flight. That's why it's moved its factories from Shipley and\r\nYorkshire over to Mexico, because people in Shipley and Yorkshire\r\ndemanded too many rights. Now people in Mexico are making links with\r\nthese people in Shipley, and that's really dangerous for Capitalism. It\r\nchanges and becomes more oppressive, or less oppressive, as a reaction\r\nto us. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nMARA: Do you think there's an Answer, like some people are\r\nAnarchists - <\/b><\/p>
\r\n <\/p>
\r\nALICE<\/b>: I call myself an Anarchist, but I don't think it's that\r\nimportant. I've done things with some Anarchists who are so right-wing\r\nand so conservative that you're shocked. I don't think it matters what\r\nyou call yourself, I think it matters what you do. Over the years, I've\r\nbecome suspicious of people in parties. They're never allowed free\r\nthought, which is really dangerous. As long as you've got a party line\r\nyou're restricted from being truthful and having contradictions. That's\r\na part of the problem with politics, it's much easier for people to feel\r\npure and feel there are no contradictions. We live with loads of\r\ncontradictions, and you've got to be truthful about it. Otherwise, you\r\nend up telling lies. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: The whole idea of \"selling-out\" is a really strange concept to\r\nme...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: It's a punk concept. I'm a forty-odd year old punk\r\nmother, because I think it's an ethos and not a style of music. When \r\nyou talk about selling out, quite often people think they haven't sold\r\nout because they're living in some sort of self chosen ghetto. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: ...a shit job.<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: They don't think its a shit job...<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: ...or no job.<\/b><\/p>
\r\n \r\nALICE<\/b>: Yeah, or no job. People don't have the option of not doing\r\nshit jobs most of the time. It's a fact of life. Especially as soon as\r\nyou've got kids, then you have to provide. There's lots of ways you can\r\nfight back against capitalism. People are part of the capitalist\r\nsociety whether or not they do a job for it. We're enmeshed in it. You \r\nhave to recognize you're part of it and at the same time stand against\r\nit. The only way you're not going to be a part of it, is to do a\r\n\"Unabomber,\" which I think is bummer. The last thing that I want to do,\r\nis become a primitive. Technology is amoral, it's what we do with it,\r\ntechnology itself doesn't have a morality. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: I'm not a primitive, but...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Look at the internet, it's got a fantastic communist\r\nstrand in it. Look at free software,\r\nhow people are sharing information, it's miles more successful than\r\nMicrosoft, and it's free. There's a whole community there using the\r\nethos of the Yippies.\r\n The first computer stuff was influenced by the Yippies, they worked\r\ncollectively and did things for trade... <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: Your talking about W.E.L.L and stuff?<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Yeah. And now you've got Richard Stallman, who's still\r\nwriting computers...<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: I don't know about that.
\r\nYou get on the Internet and there are so many advertisements. One of my\r\nemail accounts gets just shitbombed every day, with.. <\/b>\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Junk. \r\n(to Slavek) I think you're drinking a Whiskey and Coke.<\/p>
\r\n\r\nSLAVEK: I know.<\/b> <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Can I have it back, here's your coca-cola. (laughs)<\/p>
\r\n \r\nALEX: Smooth, Slavek. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: That is funny - you guzzled that!<\/p>
\r\n \r\nALEX: So, where were we... <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nSLAVEK: It was very good.<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: You're gonna be staggering around all over!<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: Do you have any questions Slavek, or any thing you wanna\r\nsay?<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nSLAVEK: Nothing. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: What about fun and the revolution, and dancing and working? How\r\ndoes music relate? I've learned a lot of the history you were talking\r\nabout from listening to Woody\r\nGuthrie...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: The reason Woody Guthrie did what he did was the joy of doing\r\nit. He loved creating. He got to sing, which is a fantastic thing.\r\nCreative ideas and the ablility to put them down enriched his life.\r\nWoody Guthrie didn't write songs because he thought he was Jesus. People\r\ndo what they do to save their own life. It's fun for me, and hedonism,\r\nnot being religious, not seeing politics as another form of denial. The\r\nbest reason to be political, to be involved, is that you recognize that\r\nthe quality of life could be enhanced. And not just for you, but for\r\neverybody.<\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: There's ways of doing it structurally and there's ways of doing\r\noutside the structure...<\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: If people have lives that are more fulfilled and more\r\nhappy, then it's a lot easier to be good to other people, isn't it? <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: It seems like it should be. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Which sounds really simple and hippyish and ridiculous,\r\nbut you don't have the option of being happy if you're struggling to\r\neat, or you're worried sick that you can't pay your bills, or working in\r\na sweatshop, or you have a shit job. Because it's not just sweat shops,\r\nlet's not pretend that you've got to work under those sort of conditions\r\nto be incredibly unhappy. You can be incredibly unhappy with whatever\r\nyou do, if you do not choose. <\/p>
\r\n <\/p>
\r\nALEX: Marx talked about that in his theory. I don't know that I've\r\neven read it, but I've probably been told about it... that the master\r\nalso feels oppression from the relationship. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n \r\nALICE<\/b>: Well it's that surplus-value thing. If you wanna go on to\r\nMarx...that idea that you've got to work and you're only paid a fraction\r\nfor what you do, because the surplus value is taken off by the boss. \r\nThe rest of the time that you could spend doing things for yourself is\r\nthe time that the boss takes. You've already earned what you need to\r\nsurvive, say in six hours and the other 34 hours are his. They've been\r\nstolen. And it's not even work anymore, that's the other thing...<\/p>
\r\n\r\nMARA: But if somebody doesn't have a creative thing to do in their\r\nspare time, then they won't make that time for themselves. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Don't matter whether it's creative...<\/p>
\r\n\r\nMARA: Yeah, but do something for themselves. <\/b><\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: But we never get the option of doing things for\r\nourselves. When I talk about the creative life, I'm not talking about\r\nmaking things. I'm talking about having the choice over how you spend\r\nyour time and what you do. The problem is that people do not choose. One\r\nof the choices you should have is to walk from here to Patagonia. Or to\r\nstay at home and be involved in some sort of committee. The problem is\r\nthat people don't choose how to spend their time. We sell this idea of\r\nhappiness that never works. So you're always thirsting for a bit more of\r\nit. I'm not particularly anti-consumer, because I'm a mad shopper. I'm\r\nanti- the way Capitalism sells you an idea of happiness, but I'm not a\r\npurist. I love style, which is part of fun I think. I love the\r\naesthetics of things. For me, that's a creative thing as well, the\r\naesthetics. There's so many parts of our lives that are completely\r\nordered, where you never really get the chance to break out of some\r\nlittle box.<\/p>
\r\n <\/p>
\r\nWhat you said about the internet - there are loads of adverts - but over\r\nthe last five years, I've been in contact with more people than the\r\nfifteen years before that. Because the Internet makes it possible. The\r\nway that you e-mailed us, suddenly the world's much smaller. One day,\r\nin the space of ten minutes, I might send an e-mail to Germany, another\r\nto Italy, another to Idaho - there are all these networks. We've just\r\ndone a book, and it wouldn't have been possible without the Internet. We\r\nwanted to get all these artists and activists and put them in the same\r\nspace. To show that, even though you might not consider yourself to be\r\npart of this movement, we're actually all in the same movement. We just\r\ndon't know each other exist. We couldn't have done that without the\r\nInternet. Obviously if you're living in a small village in India, with\r\nno computer access then obviously you're not gonna be part of it. But it\r\nisn't just young white men using the internet anymore. The Zapatistas\r\ncould not have survived without sending bulletins over to the West, they\r\nfought a propaganda war via the Internet. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALEX: ...and beautifully.<\/b> <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: Yeah beautifully. Sorry. Warren? <\/p>
\r\n\r\nWARREN<\/b>: Last minute, if you're going to continue, you need to\r\ncontinue after. <\/p>
\r\n\r\nALICE<\/b>: OK. Do you need to continue? or do you just want to have\r\na drink? <\/p>
<\/p>
The End<\/b>\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n<\/p>\n","contact":"imc-prague@lists.indymedia.org","link":"praha.indymedia.org","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/html","summary":"Exclusive IMC Praha Interview with Alice from Chumbawumba!\r\nCeske verze zde: http:\/\/prague.hacknet.tk\/newswire\/display\/7330\/index.php","numcomment":0,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2002\/12\/23576.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[]}