{"article":{"id":17146,"heading":"Question for anarchist around palestinian statehood","author":"mlm","created":"2002-06-16 16:34:05","modified":"2005-08-15 00:59:18","last_modified":"Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:59:18","article":"","contact":"\/","link":"\/","address":"\/","phone":"\/","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/plain","summary":"\/","numcomment":4,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/2002\/06\/question_f.txt","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2002\/06\/17146.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":17147,"heading":"bump","article":"Heres a question for the anti- vanguard, anti-statist, anti- authoritarians. Given the generalization that most anarchists support the palestinian people how would you view the palestinians just cause for statehood. Are they to start building regional collctives to defend. Oh wait they would be destroyed and massacred by the Isreali's. Would they walk out on strike in the factories oh wait there are no factories. Does any one see any hopes for the palestinain people takng up anarchist philosophy?\r\n\r\n\/\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nAnarchist Failings \r\nby Uncircled A 8:02pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nAnarchists have failed miserably in addressing one of the most pointed questions of the day... the struggle by the Palestinian People for Independence and yes (gulp), their own State. \r\n\r\nReading the history of the expulsion of the Palestinian People from their lands since 1948, one is struck by the universal desire of Palestinians to their own State. From the Peasant Farmer to the Professional, from the Student to the Shop Owner, Palestinians today have but one demand... \"We want a Palestinian State.\" Young Children, Old People, Women, Men... all have united behind this single goal of achieving statehood. Many have died to achieve it. \r\n\r\nA near total silence from Anarchists has been the response to the Palestinian's quest for Statehood. On occassion one hears from Anarchists a feeble \"We support the Palestinians\"... but it seems no real effort has gone into a well thought out position. \r\n\r\nIf the Palestinian People are determined to have a State, and the Anarchist position is to be against the formation of such a State... then it seems the Anarchists are more in line with Israel than with the Palestinians. \r\n\r\nNo one is asking anyone to take sides for or against a People. Both Israeli's and Palestinians deserve respect and the right to live in peace. But it's undeniable that Israel has it's State... and the Palestinians are Stateless. If Anarchists think the Palestinian position of Statelessness enviable, then they should try living in the Jenin Refugee camp for a few weeks. \r\n\r\nIf Anarchists think their politics represent the Human desire for freedom, liberty, and self reliance... then they should focus on the question of Palestine, do some soul searching, and reformulate their positions. \r\n\r\nFREE PALESTINE - FREE OURSELVES - JEWS & ARABS TOGETHER\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nanarchism \r\nby Mr. Gun-na' Sabotage 8:14pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nI could see a great possibility for the palestinaian people taking up an anarchist philosphy.\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\noccupation and resistence \r\nby ACE 8:54pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nwhere else do you see europeans(jews) \r\ntaking the land of indigionous people \r\nand cultures?well,africa,asia,america,so.america, \r\nect...so what is a palistinian state that \r\nisnt basically resistence and survival?with \r\na langage and vocabullary that tells us what \r\nit(the state) means, I think self determination, \r\nliberation,humanitarianism,and a social \r\nattitude are the basic stirrings of a trully democratic \r\n(anarchist?!) society but also the same reasons \r\nthat they will be so violently oppressed as we notice \r\nthe forced centralization and formation of \r\na munipulitable form of government(by the isrealis,ect,) \r\nin palestine,yet there is still hope for life \r\noutside of the crush of imperialism.........\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nFYI \r\nby yeah! 9:06pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nNot all iraeli jews are european. \r\nThough I agree with the qyst of your comment, there are etheopian, arabic, and chinese jews living in israel as well. \r\nNo joke.\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nPalestine and Anarchism \r\nby BFAB 11:36am Thu Jun 13 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nRegarding the question of the Palestinian state and such; this is really a deceptive red-herring. The problem that has faced the Palestinian people so far is the state terrorism of Israel. Therefore the first priority of the Palestinian people is ceasing that terror; breaking with the Israeli state and establishing a separate one is a possibility. \r\n\r\nWhere we anarchists and authoritarians split, however, is that anarchists do not view statehood as an end in and of itself, but a temporary station. In time, the state of Palestine shall go the way of all states and become repressive itself. That time is a long way off, because as yet the state of Palestine consists of a poorly armed police force, a leadership that is under siege, and . \r\n\r\nA good comparison is to be found in France under their occupation. The anarchists there did not bury their heads underneath theory; they actively joined the resistance. When hostilities with Nazi Germany ended, the state of France resumed its oppression and anarchists resumed their resistance. It would have made little sense for the anarchists to have resisted a French government that wasn't even in place.\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nYou really wanna know? \r\nby Not Mao, Not Ever 2:00pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nIf you really do care you can read the piece: \r\n\r\nAn Anarchist Explains Why He Was Willing To (Almost) Die For the Palestinian National Liberation Struggle \r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/sf.indymedia.org\/news\/2002\/06\/132529.php \r\n\r\nI don't agree with the guy but it's one anarchist's view. \r\n\r\nAnd to uncircled A who wrote: \r\n\r\n\"If the Palestinian People are determined to have a State, and the Anarchist position is to be against the formation of such a State... then it seems the Anarchists are more in line with Israel than with the Palestinians.\" \r\n\r\nNo, anarchists are against all states including the state of Israel.\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nNo State? \r\nby Uncircled A 9:49pm Wed Jun 12 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\n\"Not Mao, not ever\" responded to my post, with: \r\n\r\n>> And to uncircled A who wrote: \r\n\r\n\"If the Palestinian People are determined to have a State, and the Anarchist position is to be against the formation of such a State... then it seems the Anarchists are more in line with Israel than with the Palestinians.\" \r\n\r\nNo, anarchists are against all states including the state of Israel. << \r\n\r\nYes... that is my point. No one can deny that the Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them, WANT a State. You will not find a single thread of Anarchist thought in the Palestinian movement, they are simply not interested. The Palestinian national struggle has been single minded in it's pursuit of Statehood. Are they wrong? Who are YOU to say so? \r\n\r\nIf Palestinians have been struggling for a State for all these years... being beaten, imprisoned, tortured, deported, and murdered along the way, what right do Anarchists have to proclaim the Palestinians \"misguided\" in their pursuit of Statehood?\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nFrom One Oppressor to Another \r\nby BFAB 1:27pm Fri Jun 14 '02  \r\n \r\n\r\nIn answer to Uncircled A, I believe that a reality check is necessary. Anarchists oppose the idea of the state not on reflexive hatred of the state, but because of a pragmatic analysis of states as invariably oppressive. And again, I reiterate, that anarchists are not alone in finding fault in the state; almost all branches of Marxism believe that the state is an oppressive thing to be overcome, through this nebulous idea of a \"dictatorship of the proletariat.\" \r\n\r\nIn an anarchist analysis of the situation with Israel-Palestine, the basis for Palestinians separating with Israel is not just a question of the state, but something deeper, a question of self-determination and a people's autonomy and very existence. The Israeli state has robbed the Palestinian people of not simply the right to have their own bureaucracy, military, and industry, but of their very right to live. Therefore, the Palestinians are to be supported in their effort to secure their autonomy and to determine their own destiny. Here, anarchists have been in complete accord; the Palestinians have the right to resist their oppression. \r\n\r\nBut again, where the authoritarians and we anarchists are in dispute is that the anarchists are not so sure that simply building a state will do much. What good is a Palestinian government if it is just as authoritarian as the Israelis who preceded them? Or if it is just as full of religious zealots? Here anarchists affirm the right of a people to resist the impositions of a violent state. \r\n\r\nIn response to certain allegations; if there is not yet an apparent thread of anarchism amongst Palestinians, it is because as yet there has had to be a certain unity amongst the Palestinian left. Moreover, Maoism has had more of an effect on the ideology of members of the PLO such as Fatah. But if and when the Palestinian state is established and becomes powerful enough to oppress its people, anarchism will most certainly become an alternative, as it was in the Ukraine and in Russia after the Bolshevik revolution. \r\n\r\nIn the end, I believe that MLM and Uncircled A are simply coming up with theoretical questions that have yet to even come into play to simply rubbish anarchism. A shame, since one would imagine that the Palestinians could use all the help they can get. This sort of sectarianism only serves factions who are at liberty to deny help to Palestinians, not the Palestinians themselves.\r\n\r\nadd your comments \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\nanarchy in palestine? \r\nby echo 4:15pm Fri Jun 14 '02  \r\nfullauto14@aol.com  \r\n\r\nfrom another anarchist perspective i understand you point of view. i think it all lies within one word, solidarity. some anarchists have solidarity with the IRA and other national struggles, states are involved and religion too. solidarity is associating your struggle with the struggle of another, it doesnt mean that your ideas\/feelings are identical by any means. its obvious the majority of palistinians want a state, as an anarchist i support their hope for \"idependence\", not so much their yearning for a state. \r\nis the a decent explaination? i hope all you haters out there dont lump together anarchists and stereotype us as \"not well thought\" out or \"unorganized\". big ups to the LB infoshoppe. \r\n-echo \r\n\r\n\"Yes... that is my point. No one can deny that the Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them, WANT a State. You will not find a single thread of Anarchist thought in the Palestinian movement, they are simply not interested. The Palestinian national struggle has been single minded in it's pursuit of Statehood. Are they wrong? Who are YOU to say so?\"\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n","author":"\/","parent_id":17146,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2002-06-16 16:38:03","modified":"2002-06-16 17:00:25","fileurl":""},{"id":17166,"heading":"Palestinian Statehood","article":"<<If Palestinians have been struggling for a State for all these years... being beaten, imprisoned, tortured, deported, and murdered along the way, what right do Anarchists have to proclaim the Palestinians \"misguided\" in their pursuit of Statehood?>>\r\n\r\nI think we have to look at exactly what the Palestinian state entails.  If I accept your claim above that the Palestinian people are a marginal part of the productive base of the Israel area, then this state would simply be a diplomatic gesture.  A state, as any Marxist or Anarchist knows, is the instrument of class rule and therefore primarily tied to production (and several other things).  I'm not sure about the details of Palestinian statehood but it seems that it's an effort to get diplomatic recognition by the UN and other multinational entities in order to stave off the massive Israeli violence against them.  As an anarchist, I seek the expropriation of the productive resources and access to the means of existence for all.  Therefore, wherever the Palestinians fall into the division of labor, I would act in solidarity with the militant workers among them.  However, I have solidarity for all peoples, irrespective of their \"objective class nature\" and thus skeptically support the Palestinian people in the defense of their very lives even if this entails \"statehood\" (which is a farce as it's really the rich Arabs versus the rich Jews).  The ultimate lesson is that the international Anarchist movement has to provide the room for both Palestinian and Israeli working people to see their common bonds and act in the interests of life.  An interesting debate over this issue has been had over at the c8 boards, perhaps MLM and others could take a look:\r\n\r\nhttp:\/\/c8.com\/c8\/phpBB2\/viewtopic.php?t=191\r\n\r\n-Sk! ","author":"Sk!","parent_id":17146,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2002-06-17 05:48:39","modified":"2002-06-17 06:01:04","fileurl":""},{"id":17180,"heading":"A STATE for Palestine","article":"\"BFAB\" wrote:\r\n>> But again, where the authoritarians and we anarchists are in dispute is that the anarchists are not so sure that simply building a state will do much. What good is a Palestinian government if it is just as authoritarian as the Israelis who preceded them? <<\r\n\r\nAgain I must point out... Anarchism has had no following amongst the Palestinian People, ask yourselves why? The plight of Palestinians has been ongoing since 1948, but as yet... there has been NO Palestinian interest in Anarchism. Is this because the Palestinians are incapable of embracing a political ideal that is \"freedom loving\" or is it because that political ideal is inaplicable to the situation of Palestine?\r\n\r\nOur lives are much different from those of the Palestinians. Their lives are totally controlled in every respect by an occupying power that has little if any regard for their humanity. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that \"we know best\" what course the Palestinians should be taking. It is NOT up to Western intellectuals to decide how the Palestinians should proceed. It is up to those who have been struggling for generations to make those decisions... the Palestinians themselves.\r\n\r\nThe question, \"What good is a Palestinian government if it is just as authoritarian as the Israelis who preceded them?\" begs the question... \"why struggle at all?\" If the eventual outcome is merely to replace the Israeli occupation with a Palestinian State (which by Anarchist definition would be a repressive institution)... then why bother?\r\n\r\nI've been following the history of the Palestinian movement for a very long time... and I'm  glad that people are at last discussing this extremely complicated issue. Before the outbreak of the most recent Intifada (uprising), there was no discussion at all on the subject of Israel\/Palestine on Indymedia. I think people have a lot of catching up to do in terms of understanding the history of the region and it's peoples. It is not a matter of simply superimposing our ideas and solutions upon the people in the region.","author":"Uncircled A","parent_id":17146,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2002-06-17 16:32:51","modified":"2002-06-18 16:51:32","fileurl":""},{"id":17211,"heading":"This is much better than palestine indymedia!","article":"Who says palestinians just want a state? Not them! A recent poll found most of them want to destroy Israel.  It's hamas' mission statement!  All the time palestinians say they intend to kill all the jews, so who are anarchists to disapprove?  \r\nAnd I don't think any anarchists want to force their idea of anarchy on palestinians\r\n\r\nWhy single out anarchists ? everyone has an opinion no one thinks of real-life palestinians, especially not the palestinian leaders and terrorists.","author":"nadine","parent_id":17146,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2002-06-19 01:09:27","modified":"2002-06-19 02:00:37","fileurl":""}]}