{"article":{"id":7528,"heading":"GOTHENBURG WRAP-UP: Commentary","author":"IMC-LA","created":"2001-06-21 07:34:53","modified":"2001-07-03 22:21:11","last_modified":"Wed, 04 Jul 2001 05:21:11","article":"<ul> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/sweden.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=1600<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> Defending the Democracy of the Dollar  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/sweden.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=1585<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> Swedish Media and Politicians Gloss Over Police Responsibility  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/sweden.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=2746<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> Pacifism, Violence, and the Challenges We Face <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/sweden.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=1617<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> Violence and non-violence are BOTH needed !  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/sweden.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=3555<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> German Security Police critical of Swedish Police work in Gothenburg  <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <li> <br>  <br> <a target=\"new\" href=\"&lt;a%20href=\" http: rel=\"nofollow\">http:\/\/www.indymedia.org\/display.php3?article_id=47712<\/a>\"&gt; <br>  <br> Have summit protests gone too far? <br>  <br>  <br>  <br> (bbc thread &amp; comments) <br>  <br> <\/li> <br><br> <\/ul>\n","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"text\/html","summary":"Read critiques of the causes, effects, and big-picture consequences of the tactics used and the media spin of the Gothenburg protests.","numcomment":18,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2001\/06\/7528.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":7691,"heading":"Is this really what you want?","article":"\r\nYou may wonder why the Swedish people's reactions to the riots are so strong. Here's one reason.\r\n\r\nThis is for the rioters and their supporters. Serious debaters and protesters please don't be offended by my passionate wording. This is not against any of you.\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nHere in Sweden, during election campaigns, top politicians will stand on the street corners arguing their opinions. They're not up on some podium far away. They stand right in the middle of the throng of people, on ordinary street corners. This includes party leaders and members of the government.\r\n\r\nPassers-by will stop by for a while, to listen and to argue.\r\n\r\nOf course some of the passers-by will be quite angry with the way some politicians mismanage things. But there's no violence and no danger. Therefore our politicians can discuss face to face with people on the streets. They can stand right among the people, listening, learning, discussing, arguing with anyone interested who happens to pass by.\r\n\r\nYou anarcho-fascists are destroying this.\r\n\r\nWith your violence you're making our contact with those in power impossible. If this goes on, standing like that on the streets will be too dangerous. The politicians will need protection. They'll be forced to distance themselves from the people.\r\n\r\n*You* are doing this.\r\n\r\nIt's not the police! It's not the politicians! *It's you!*\r\n\r\nYou're destroying something immensely, immensely valuable. You're distancing the power from the people.\r\n\r\nThis is one reason why the Swedish people are so deeply shocked and abhorred. This is one reason why we take it personally, and why we're practically unanimous. It's not the only reason, there are others. But this one is very important.\r\n\r\nWe are used to being close to our politicians. I have argued with political leaders on the street corners, I have told them my opinions. Not just writing letters to someone far away, but discussing face to face, arguing back and forth.\r\n\r\n*You* are destroying our direct contact with those in power. *You* are distancing the people from the power. *You* are making our society harder and harsher.\r\n\r\nIt's not \"Globalisation\" that's destroying this! It's not \"Big capital\"! It's not \"Corporate media\"!\r\n\r\nIt's *you!*\r\n\r\nWe hate you for it.\r\n\r\nWe hate you deeply.\r\n\r\nDamn you fascist pigs.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-24 23:36:14","modified":"2001-06-25 00:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":7693,"heading":"Is this really what you want?","article":"\r\nYou may wonder why the Swedish people's reactions to the riots are so strong. Here's one reason.\r\n\r\nThis is for the rioters and their supporters. Serious debaters and protesters please don't be offended by my passionate wording. This is not against any of you.\r\n\r\n------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nHere in Sweden, during election campaigns, top politicians will stand on the street corners arguing their opinions. They're not up on some podium far away. They stand right in the middle of the throng of people, on ordinary street corners. This includes party leaders and members of the government.\r\n\r\nPassers-by will stop by for a while, to listen and to argue.\r\n\r\nOf course some of the passers-by will be quite angry with the way some politicians mismanage things. But there's no violence and no danger. Therefore our politicians can discuss face to face with people on the streets. They can stand right among the people, listening, learning, discussing, arguing with anyone interested who happens to pass by.\r\n\r\nYou anarcho-fascists are destroying this.\r\n\r\nWith your violence you're making our contact with those in power impossible. If this goes on, standing like that on the streets will be too dangerous. The politicians will need protection. They'll be forced to distance themselves from the people.\r\n\r\n*You* are doing this.\r\n\r\nIt's not the police! It's not the politicians! *It's you!*\r\n\r\nYou're destroying something immensely, immensely valuable. You're distancing the power from the people.\r\n\r\nThis is one reason why the Swedish people are so deeply shocked and abhorred. This is one reason why we take it personally, and why we're practically unanimous. It's not the only reason, there are others. But this one is very important.\r\n\r\nWe are used to being close to our politicians. I have argued with political leaders on the street corners, I have told them my opinions. Not just writing letters to someone far away, but discussing face to face, arguing back and forth.\r\n\r\n*You* are destroying our direct contact with those in power. *You* are distancing the people from the power. *You* are making our society harder and harsher.\r\n\r\nIt's not \"Globalisation\" that's destroying this! It's not \"Big capital\"! It's not \"Corporate media\"!\r\n\r\nIt's *you!*\r\n\r\nWe hate you for it.\r\n\r\nWe hate you deeply.\r\n\r\nDamn you fascist pigs.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-25 00:06:14","modified":"2001-06-25 01:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":7697,"heading":"protests were against EU not Sweden","article":"While Sweden MAY be an enlightened democracy where politicians are accesible to averge people, the EU summit was not. Hosting a meeting that influences all Europeans requires dealing with problems in ALL European countries. It was irresponsible for Sweeden to not prepare for the protests that occured. It was even more irresponsible for it to only arm police with guns and live ammunition. I would guess that the reason the \"leftists\" in Sweden posting to these sites are so angry is that the reaction of the Swedish police to violent protestors (many of whom were Sweedish) revealed that Sweeden is not that much better than the rest of the world. This is comparible to liberal cities in the US with tough laws against the homeless; homeless people make liberals feel guilty about inequality, so liberals come up with excuses to attack the very people they pretend to care about. The Swedish public may pretend to care about violence against protesters in other countries but the reaction of the news media in Sweeden to the use of live ammunition against protesters reveals how shallow Swedish liberalism really is. The US news media would have taken the use of live gunfire at a protest far more seriously than the Swedish news media did.","author":"anonymous","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-25 01:57:18","modified":"2001-06-25 02:36:43","fileurl":""},{"id":7703,"heading":"hey quickfox the war is finally brought home","article":"quickfox, being swedish i know that youre full of it.\r\nnot since the assasination of olof palme has it been considered \"safe\" for any leading politician in this country to move amongst the masses. they fear us, and you know it. yours is the nostalgia of a sweden that never was.\r\nthe socialdemocratic party siezed power largely by forming a base in grassroot streetaction, do you honestly think this didnt include confrontation with the police? you are dreaming a dream of swedish innocence lost. i am sorry that you had to wake up. sweden gave up its rights in 1994 and surrendered to EU. they moved the power to brussels. how is that for distacing the politicians from the people?\r\nnow EU politics is not the nice cosy little place you might have thought. i know the people of g\u00f6teborg nows this by now. you see, people are pissed of and when people are pissed of they cease being nice. its sad but true. what did you expect? the war that global capitalism is waging knows no geographical boudaries and neither does the resistance.\r\nEU is a tool for global capitalism, it was in fact founded on capitalist principles. until this tool is back in the hands of the people, the world will not be safe again quickfox my friend. people are getting restless, see?\r\nthey are tired of living like slaves, cleaning your shit,  making you clothes, feeding you, dying for you. the truth is this: what happened in g\u00f6teborg happens every day as a direct cause of the idustrialised worlds consumerism. on a much lager scale. people do tend to protest when they feel like they have beed treated like dirt. they rebel. sometimes they throw rocks. sometimes they blow things up.\r\nwe are all responsible for letting it come to this. it is time to live in the now and act. time to be a little pragmatic maybe? you can hate and whine all you want about the past but i ask you what is your vision for the future?\r\nkind of more intresting.","author":"twinax","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-25 02:53:02","modified":"2013-11-10 23:37:40","fileurl":""},{"id":7786,"heading":"War against the people","article":"> Anonymous:\r\n\r\n> protests were against EU not Sweden \r\n\r\nThe rioters themselves claimed that what provoked the riots were the police. Which was it, the EU or the police?\r\n\r\nEven if there was some theoretical ideology against the EU, the attacks were certainly not against the EU. The attacks were against demonstrators, shop owners and policemen.\r\n\r\n> twinax:\r\n\r\n> hey quickfox the war is finally brought home \r\n\r\nYes, maybe \"war\" is a suitable word. A war by the rioters against the people.\r\n\r\n20 000 people were silenced by some 100 to 600 rioters (the reported numbers vary).\r\n\r\nAs you see, the rioters were a puny minority, just 1 to 3 percent. They violently suppressed and silenced a huge majority of 97 to 99 percent. Any dictator would be proud.\r\n\r\nThe rioters sabotaged our work and raped and ransacked us, and you're trying to convince me that this was for our sake. Well, they sure are counteracting your claims effectively.\r\n\r\nThe 20 000 demonstrators were a strong and powerful movement against the EU, brutally defeated and silenced by the reactionary movement for the EU ... Hmmm, not quite.\r\n\r\nWe had some very serious projects trying to bring the power closer to the people. We have a long tradition of organisations influencing politicians through dialogue. This is one thing we're good at in Sweden. We wanted to bring some of this to the EU.\r\n\r\nThe people should have a say! This was the issue here. And the people was silenced in this war against the people.\r\n\r\n\"Corporate media\" could never have silenced us so effectively. \"Big capital\" could never have silenced us so effectively. I must hand it to you, these rioters are amazingly effective in their war against the people.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-26 04:56:50","modified":"2001-06-26 05:45:06","fileurl":""},{"id":7787,"heading":"Kristallnacht","article":"> Anonymous:\r\n\r\n> The Swedish public may pretend to care about violence against protesters in other countries but the reaction of the news media in Sweeden to the use of live ammunition against protesters reveals how shallow Swedish liberalism really is. \r\n\r\nThe rioters have provoked such an amazingly sudden reversal in the public opinions of an entire nation that I think it will be remembered for generations as one of the most extreme feats of propaganda ever seen.\r\n\r\nEven in their wildest dreams all the reactionary movements working together could never have dreamed of effecting such a huge change even with unlimited resources through generations. It's utterly unbelievable.\r\n\r\nThe rioters did this overnight.\r\n\r\nThrough decades the Swedish press and people have been extremely wary of police in connection with political demonstrations. This is because of the powerfully traumatic memory of \u00c5dalen 1931, where several demonstrators where shot to the death by the military. The ensuing trauma has created an absolute consensus among all political shades that democracy and freedom of speech must never, ever be suppressed by violence. Never, ever.\r\n\r\nEver since, one of the main tasks of the police is to defend demonstrators, to make sure they can have their say. If violence appears, it must be stopped or contained as quickly as possible, so it doesn't interfere with the demonstration.\r\n\r\nBecause of this powerful cultural heritage, those shots in connection with the Gothemburg demonstrations necessarily evoked terrible shock, dismay, revulsion and despair.\r\n\r\nHowever, those rioters did not act like demonstrators.\r\n\r\nDemonstrators work in earnest toward a political goal. Demonstrators argue and agitate, trying to convince people of their political view. Demonstrators struggle together, using their unity and mutual solidarity to show the world the strength of their cause.\r\n\r\nThe rioters did nothing of this. The rioter's acts evoked a very different image, of an event that didn't happen in Sweden, yet may be almost as powerful as \u00c5dalen, due to our extreme revulsion. This is the Kristallnacht in Berlin 1938, when Nazi rioters broke the windows and destroyed the furnishings of Jewish shops, while the police remained passive, never lifting a hand to protect the victims.\r\n\r\nSmashing windows and destroying furnishings evokes the Kristallnacht. Victimising shop workers evokes the Kristallnacht. Violently silencing democracy and freedom of speech evokes the Kristallnacht. And, of course, enacting an ideology that is based on violence evokes the repulsive ideology behind the Kristallnacht, the ideology of Hitler's Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.\r\n\r\nSo, down on some deep emotional level, what we saw in the riots was a reenactment of the Kristallacht. However, in this version of the Kristallnacht there was one very important difference. In this version the police did not stand passive letting the victims suffer without protection. In this version they did whatever they could to protect the victims from the attacking monsters.\r\n\r\nSo you see, on this emotional level we did not see demonstrators shot by violent police. We saw Kristallnacht Nazis attacking over and over again, and policemen desperately trying to do something about it, and the Nazis foolishly keeping at it, over and over again, and in the end the Nazis getting shot.\r\n\r\nOf course this was all on a deep emotional level. Rationally we know quite well that the rioters aren't Nazis. Rationally we see that they are different. But the memories that were evoked are very, very powerful, and this creates confusion.\r\n\r\nThey aren't Nazis, but we cannot seem as demonstrators either. That's impossible. They just can't be demonstrators. Demonstrators never act like that. Never. It's impossible.\r\n\r\nI think the general consensus now is that the rioters are a travelling circus of football hooligans, high on adrenalin and probably on drugs too, finding thrill in infiltrating and sabotaging both political demonstrations and football celebrations.\r\n\r\nNot a very powerful political statement.\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-26 04:57:41","modified":"2013-11-10 23:37:40","fileurl":""},{"id":7800,"heading":"It is easy to judge","article":"At least the last commentators were not in G\u00f6teborg. I was and I participated in the demonstration that eventually led to the destruction of the Aveny. The difference between me and the so called rioters is that I ran and they threw stones. But a lot of people who were not throwing stones were beaten by the police. Never forget that. That\u00b4s what we all should be discussing. OK, it was an illegal demonstation. But so was the Indian march in Mexico, so was many of the civil rights movement\u00b4s in the US, so was many of Gandhis demonstrations and so was the childrens protest in Soweto. We were planning to go down to Svenska m\u00e4ssan to voice our protest. IN A PEACEFUL WAY! I ensure you that not a window was broken until the police came at us. Is this freedom of speech? Or is it that the true nature of an oppressive system shows its ugly face when the very structures of its maintanance is questioned? We were scared. Some ran and some threw stones. And it happened that the one who threw stones had no other possibility than to fight as the police know who they are and don\u00b4t hesitate to give them a beating. And to compare this with theKristallnacht is outrageous. Om the Aveny there are no small shops owned by a marginalised section of the people. In any case these waeren\u00b4t destroyed. It was McDonalds, big banks and the like. The big capital that is is exploting both the working class here and in developing countries. Never forget that it was the police that was the aggressor not the people who wore black.\r\nAnd what happened after the destrtuction of the Aveny. The police effectively blocked our way to Fritt Forum were we were supposed to gather to end the spiral of violence. Why? I can\u00b4t find any other explaination that somebody - and I don\u00b4t believe it to be the anarcist as they didn\u00b4t profit from it - wanted the violence to continue. Why? To turn peoples opinion about police violence, EU or whatever. To distract people from the real issues. This couldn\u00b4t be the working of the \"blacks\" if you think about it. They wanted the people to see the bad things about EU and capitalism.\r\nThe worst thing ius that we are all being used. The police, the stone-throwing anarchist and the more polite left that just ran away. Why didn\u00b4t we have the guts to sit down, be beaten but building a bridge between the to violent and aggressive parties. That is what would have been best for the cause. But if people come at you with dogs or ride you down with horses it is easy to get scared.\r\nAnd for god\u00b4s sake,. don\u00b4t forget that the police shot three persons. One in the stomach which cannot be called self-defense, as the police are supposed to be trained for this. Thats is what you should be shocked about. And never forget the innocent people. We were all innocent like Swedish people are. We all believe that the police is there to protect us, but the experiences from G\u00f6teborg is that they are here to controll us. This is a young woman waking up to face the reality. And what should we do about it? Blame the \"black\" and let  them be even more radical and angry next time? Or try to do something about it.\r\nThank you","author":"\u00c5sa","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-26 14:29:01","modified":"2026-10-25 17:02:53","fileurl":""},{"id":7868,"heading":"Interesting arguments","article":"<<< \u00c5sa: But a lot of people who were not throwing stones were beaten by the police. Never forget that. That\u00b4s what we all should be discussing. >>>\r\n\r\nYes! And, much more important, that's what the media should discuss!\r\n\r\nAnd the media wanted to discuss this. They were very critical of police brutality in Stockholm and Malm\u00f6. After Witfeltska they were almost angry with the police! They wanted to criticize and condemn the police!\r\n\r\nThe rioters stopped this.\r\n\r\n<<< Never forget that it was the police that was the aggressor not the people who wore black. >>>\r\n\r\nI feel very strongly provoked by the rioters. Does this mean I'm allowed to go berserk on my street and smash windows and destroy furnishings?\r\n\r\n20 000 people were extremely provoked by the rioters. The rioters repressed 20 000 people. Most of them felt despair, sorrow, a huge loss, and an immense provocation. Does this mean that the 20 000 people should all go berserk on the streets of Gothemburg? The entire city would be completely destroyed.\r\n\r\nAlmost all Swedes feel extremely provoked by the rioters. Maybe we should all go out and smash and tear down all our cities and villages.\r\n\r\n<<< This couldn\u00b4t be the working of the \"blacks\" if you think about it. They wanted the people to see the bad things about EU and capitalism. >>>\r\n\r\nInteresting. You say they wanted the people to see the bad things about EU and capitalism.\r\n\r\nSo why didn't they do that? Instead, they made people see the bad things about anarcho-fascism.\r\n\r\nAlways counteracting their own goals.\r\n\r\n<<< Why didn\u00b4t we have the guts to sit down, be beaten but building a bridge between the to violent and aggressive parties. That is what would have been best for the cause. But if people come at you with dogs or ride you down with horses it is easy to get scared. >>>\r\n\r\nNow that would have been a powerful and strong demonstration. That would have been reported with admiration in the media.\r\n\r\nUnfortunately it's impossible to sit down in the middle of a raging chaos with barking dogs on one side and rioters throwing two-kilogram stones on the other. The stones would kill you.\r\n\r\n<<< And for god\u00b4s sake,. don\u00b4t forget that the police shot three persons. One in the stomach which cannot be called self-defense, as the police are supposed to be trained for this. Thats is what you should be shocked about. >>>\r\n\r\nThis is an extreme tragedy. It's horrible!\r\n\r\nNormally such a shooting would have caused extreme outrage in all the papers. The shock and revulsion and outrage would continue for years, for decades, for generations.\r\n\r\nBut the rioters changed this.\r\n\r\n<<< And what should we do about it? Blame the \"black\" and let them be even more radical and angry next time? Or try to do something about it. >>>\r\n\r\nOf course you can't blame the rioters for society being like it is. That's not their fault.\r\n\r\nBut no improvement can come as long as the rioters keep sabotaging all the work that thousands of people make to improve the system.\r\n\r\nI must blame the rioters for sabotaging this important work. This work must go on! But the rioters destroy everything. They do this, nobody else.\r\n\r\nIt makes no difference if they are more angry or less angry. Read the pages here. They'll riot no matter what.\r\n\r\nIf they stop rioting, things can get better. If they keep rioting, things can't get better, because they stop everything.\r\n\r\n<<< Thank you >>>\r\n\r\nThank you for interesting arguments.\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-27 03:48:58","modified":"2013-11-10 23:37:40","fileurl":""},{"id":7869,"heading":"An open letter to all the reactionaries","article":"Hello filthy capitalist swine.\r\n\r\nAre you fed up with political activists trying to interfere with your precious capitalism? Well, I have a solution for you. A wonderful solution! Just pay some thugs to infiltrate demonstrations and sabotage everything!\r\n\r\nWhat? You don't want to pay for this? But it's cheap! I can arrange it very cheap for you! And you'll get a lot for your money! The thugs will reverse the opinions of a nation overnight! Everyone will turn against all those pesky leftist political organizations!\r\n\r\nYou don't want to pay anything at all? You're so greedy you want to keep every single penny of your filthy capital?\r\n\r\nOkay, okay, don't worry. You'll get it for free, you greedy swine. They'll even pay their own tickets and travel expenses.\r\n\r\nYou just sit down here comfortably and watch. They'll infiltrate and sabotage all on their own. They'll destroy everything, just for you. All the work of all those pesky leftist organizations will go down the drain.\r\n\r\nAll for you, and you won't have to pay a single penny.\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-27 03:49:52","modified":"2001-06-27 04:04:03","fileurl":""},{"id":7870,"heading":"Just imagine...","article":"Imagine if the rioters had not come.\r\n\r\nThe media would be full of reports about demonstrations, seminars, political alternatives, suggestions, opinions, ideas.\r\n\r\nPeople reading and watching the media would learn things! They would think!\r\n\r\nLots of healthy political messages would spread!\r\n\r\nThis would influence people! Things would change!\r\n\r\nHow unfortunate that the rioters came and destroyed all this.\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-27 03:50:29","modified":"2001-06-27 04:04:03","fileurl":""},{"id":8047,"heading":"naivety or hope?","article":"dear quickfox,\r\ni believe it to be a very foolish suggestion that if there were no violence during the protests the media would be \"full of  reports about demonstrations, seminars, political alternatives, suggestions, opinions, ideas....\" have you forgotten or havent you realised that mainstream media is nothing more than the mouthpiece for this shit system were all fighting against? if this werent the case then what would be the point of a site\/organisation like indymedia? if there were no violence in the demonstrations then im sure i would have seen in the media exactly the same as i saw covering the huge peaceful demo on the 16th - absolutely nothing!","author":"massive spa","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-28 19:38:47","modified":"2001-06-28 20:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":8158,"heading":"The media were already reporting daily","article":"massive spa: The mainstream media were already reporting a lot about the preparations. Naive? It happened! They did! Up to the very day before the riots that was exactly what happened! Just check those papers!\r\n\r\nBut after the riots this practically drowned in the shock and pain and grief and sorrow. The riots did not make the media report more on the political work, it made them nearly cancel the reporting.\r\n\r\nBefore the summit there was an air of expectation throughout the nation. An enormous number of labor unions and other organizations were pitching in, working hard. Of course this was reported. Everyone was hoping that this summit would be an occasion of real dialogue between organizations and politicians.\r\n\r\nThat was the naive part!\r\n\r\nBelieving that civilized dialogue was possible with these riot-seekers, that was certainly naive!\r\n\r\nNow that I know indymedia and have read some stuff here, I know that such hopes are ridiculously futile and naive. Those riot-seekers will never, NEVER accept civilized dialogue, no matter what anyone does. They are totally perverse in this respect. They will NEVER accept civilized dialogue.\r\n\r\nThe rioter's idea that the world will discover political truths through these riots is utterly ridiculous. That's naive! If you want people to listen, you have to behave in such a way that people will listen to you.\r\n\r\nBlaming the police for throwing stones at banks and cowardly hiding in crowds! Who is going to respect such brutes? Who is going to listen to such brutes?\r\n\r\nWho is naive?\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-30 00:44:54","modified":"2001-06-30 00:58:08","fileurl":""},{"id":8186,"heading":"You are right","article":"you're totally right everything you say is true they must stop! They are destroying our society with their behavior! You said it man, I think that we have to take a stand and tell those terrorists that we don't accept their behavior.","author":"mr x","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-06-30 12:14:17","modified":"2001-06-30 12:31:48","fileurl":""},{"id":8246,"heading":"Thanks","article":"Mr x, thanks for your support.\r\n\r\nThere are a few people here trying to explain these things to the rioters and their supporters. We write comments at relevant news items and summaries. If you look around you'll find our comments here and there.\r\n\r\nWill you join us?  If more and more people help, maybe they'll understand in the end (not the most fanatic of course, but the others). I think it's very important, and therefore worth trying. Simply write comments.\r\n\r\n","author":"QuickFox","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-07-01 03:25:39","modified":"2001-07-01 04:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":8296,"heading":"You have a point but only so far...","article":"Yes, if there was no violence at the protest, all of your good work would not have been undone, but I also agree with the message above that said that if this had happened, the protests would not have made the news.  In Sweden you may have read about the preparations every day, but here in the UK we would have had a brief story with a few shots of politicians shaking hands under the flash of cameras, and no significant or explained message about the peaceful protests outside.  \r\nI know it is sad to have to admit that violence is necessary to get onto the news, but events like these and their (mis)coverage in the media has politicised people like me and encouraged us to get involved, though we choose not to use violence in our protest.","author":"Janie Jones","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-07-02 00:23:52","modified":"2001-07-02 00:47:12","fileurl":""},{"id":8376,"heading":"Starve a Feeding Bureaucrat","article":"Starve a Feeding Bureaucrat.  The problem is not business, but government bureaucrats!","author":"Terry","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-07-03 16:09:17","modified":"2001-07-03 17:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":8377,"heading":"Rioters infiltrate media?","article":"You claim that the rioters destroyed what would have been fantastic media coverage, and also that there would have widespread condemnation of the police shootings.\r\n\r\nIs a broken Macdonalds window equivalent to a bullet?\r\n\r\nI don't think window smashing acheives anything, because, as you say, it tends to reduce the credibility of a cause. But what the media publishes is up to them. The \"rioters\" didn't storm into newspaper offices and force them not to condemn the police shootings! Of course not.\r\n\r\nIf shooting protestors is wrong, then shooting protestors is wrong. Simple as. Whether or not store windows were broken, the media have a responsibility to assert this. Whether they did so was UP TO THEM. Their hand was not forced by the \"rioters\".\r\n\r\nPS Thanks for having a sensible debate instead of just ranting :)","author":"Genoseize Therat","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-07-03 16:18:28","modified":"2001-07-03 17:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":8385,"heading":"Any publicity is good publicity","article":"I'm  growing tired of hearing people defend protestor  violence by claiming that it attracts more media coverage than peaceful protest.  Violence is an easy way to create a spectacle that consumers  will watch... Hollywood has known this for years. But if one of our goals as protestors is to build a less violent society, then this particular form of sensationalism would seem to counterproductive.  Surely, we have more creativity with in the protest movement than to fall back on violence as a means of drawing attention to our causes.  After all, publicity for publicty's sake is the ideology of a tabloid, not a social movement.\r\n\r\n","author":"jawaj","parent_id":7528,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-07-03 22:21:11","modified":"2001-07-03 23:00:01","fileurl":""}]}