{"article":{"id":2417,"heading":"Police Riot in the Subway","author":"U.","created":"2000-08-19 06:17:51","modified":"2003-10-03 00:12:03","last_modified":"Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:12:03","article":"","contact":"","link":"","address":"","phone":"","parent_id":0,"mime_type":"video\/x-pn-realvideo","summary":"Unprovoked, Police harass and charge on protesters and by-standers in the subway as they are making their way home from a peacefull day pf protests. People are indiscriminatly beaten and a woman asking an innocent question is pulled by the police.","numcomment":135,"fileurl":"\/uploads\/police_20violence.rm","filesize":null,"article_url":"\/news\/2000\/08\/2417.php"},"attachments":[],"comments":[{"id":10322,"heading":"Observation","article":"My observations regarding your video include, but are not limited to:\r\n\r\n1. If you were in my neighborhood and provoking my friends you would all definitely have your pathetic asses kicked.\r\n\r\n2. Your women seem to be unattractive and this kind of stuff definitely fills a void in their humdrum lives.\r\n\r\n3. The \"guys\" know they won't be seriously hurt by a cop  so they feel really courageous in front of the women mentioned above.  \r\n\r\n4. I really don't like your tactics for getting a message across.\r\n\r\n5. Your movement is based a phoney issue.","author":"Ricardo","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-09-17 17:38:46","modified":"2001-09-17 18:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":13670,"heading":"I may just be some stupid kid","article":"Alright folks, I may just be some stupid kid - but I believe i read someone saying that we should attempt to ration with the cops.  Okay, that's an interesting idea, do you really want to try to have a rational conversation with a big blue and black wall moving at you at about 15 miles an hour?  Or do you think that if you sit down and have a real conversation with a cop, that the conversation will actually go places.  You're wrong - 3 months ago I got together a force of about 20 kids, to go and have rational conversations with cops, in the next month or so...  I came to discover [quite quickly] that police are trained NOT to rationalize with you.  Police follow orders, just like a soldier in the millitary.  [gee, that sounds fammiliar] They are trained to use tactics to intimidate you into compliance.  Talking to a cop does NOT work.  They are picked for their ignorance, they are picked because they were picked on in school - they are picking the people most likely to go crazy and shoot you all, and then they're giving them weapons that are very very dangerous.   They have power, you obey, or they will call their wrath upon your head.\r\n\r\nAlso anouther thing...  \"Follow the rules or get punished\"  That doesn't apply, almost all \"laws\" put into place are done so in a defacto way, without even proper legislative practises.  And remember in the preable of the constiution...  The constitution is the basis for all laws made, any laws or ordinances put in place that conflict with the constitution are void from the date of their creation.    [that's far from an excact quote]  \r\nThese are the people we hired to protect us while we sleep, to ensure our safety...  Does watching this video make you feel SAFE?!  I think not.  I for one, am all for armed rebellion.","author":"icarus","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-12-18 22:18:05","modified":"2001-12-18 23:00:08","fileurl":""},{"id":21557,"heading":"Links not working","article":"Just thought I'd let whoever know that the printable version links and the links to the videos are NOT working, I get page can't be viewed pages when clicked on.\r\nCan you fix them and send them to my email.\r\nHow can I sign on and make some money for this cause on a limited basis?\r\nI also need to create a web\/home\/ page.","author":"Dennis","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2002-11-04 03:08:29","modified":"2002-11-04 03:08:29","fileurl":""},{"id":2425,"heading":"LAPD - QUIT YOUR JOBS!!!","article":"If you are a cop and you continue to work for LA after watching this, you are a simply a sadist. ","author":"I fucking live here","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 06:47:19","modified":"2000-08-19 07:02:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2454,"heading":"Subway Incident on Thursday","article":"I was there...  thanks to the police, now I have to sleep in Downtown L.A.  ","author":"David Horvitz","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 08:53:58","modified":"2000-08-19 09:09:05","fileurl":""},{"id":2463,"heading":"Get this commercial off this site","article":"selling tshirts is not what the site is about - unless of course you are donating ALL profit to the IMC?","author":"cmb","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 09:44:05","modified":"2000-08-19 10:04:02","fileurl":""},{"id":2464,"heading":"***","article":"Good work - An A in fascist behaviour\r\n\r\n","author":"Christian-Sweden","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 10:13:55","modified":"2000-08-19 10:42:07","fileurl":""},{"id":2471,"heading":"2 minutes to leave the area?","article":"they barely even gave them 20 seconds.  total bullshit.  somebody should send that to one of those tabloid tv shows like real tv or whatever else is on there.  they eat that shit up and it might get the message across.","author":"jc - pittsburgh","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 11:14:46","modified":"2000-08-19 11:31:31","fileurl":""},{"id":2475,"heading":"Intense!","article":"Wow! Kudos to the videographer for this excellent video. It was really encouraging to see some average activists involved in anti-cop heckling. It's pretty pointless to talk with the police. You cannot argue them into not clearing you out of the subway station. They have to obey orders because that is the nature of police work.\r\n\r\nThis is yet another example of why we need to cultivate anti-cop consciousness in this movement. Too mnay people think that you can talk stuff over with the police. The police are not there to be your friend. They are your enemy as a working person.\r\n\r\nIt's really shameful to read accounts from this past week of protest leaders and organizers who negotiated things with the police. This sets back the movement immensely. In the rest of the world, activists don't negotiate with the police to march down the streets. They simply march down the streets. If you can't march down a street without a permit in America, then we've really dgenerated into a fascist state already.","author":"Chuck0","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 11:49:48","modified":"2000-08-19 12:04:33","fileurl":""},{"id":2492,"heading":"Police and the struggle","article":" It would seem logical to try and get police to possibly identify with US as working class people. But during the actual rally etc this is not the time to start trying to accomplish that. The French revolution happened so quickly because 2 large segments of the population were united in there opposition to the Nobility (along with economic crisis). Ok point is we have to create sympathy accross socioeconomic layers. You also have to remember that before these cops come out there they are not being told about the real issues (of course). They are being advised on tactics from all sorts of groups the entire focus is on containment and disruption of rallies.  ","author":"Dragan","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 13:28:48","modified":"2000-08-19 13:45:14","fileurl":""},{"id":2501,"heading":"l.a. cops... any cops anywhere in the USA","article":"The police will use these tactics until they start fearing for the own safety.   We should all construct ARMOR.  That would really fuck with them.  ","author":"daniel","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 13:55:31","modified":"2000-08-19 14:11:19","fileurl":""},{"id":2526,"heading":"MILITANT DEFENSE IS OUR ONLY CHOICE NOW","article":"For a long time I have held a position of non-violence in all situations except that of immediate threat of physicall harm. I can't believe the level of repression instigated by LAPD. We gave them everything going into this week. Permitted protest zones, permitted march routes, no mass level civil disobedience. The only thing we claimed to engage in was our basic right of assemblly and voice our opposition. And the retribution is LAPD riots in the subway, dragging people by their hair, shooting at people in contained fenced area. What other option do we have. To not assemble. To not protest. We have no other option but to approach these situations as ones we will be victimized by the police and the state unless we prepare for self defense.\r\n\r\nLong live the revolution -A-","author":"DJK","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 15:19:56","modified":"2000-08-19 15:31:59","fileurl":""},{"id":2547,"heading":"police state","article":"With the first glimmer of a mass social movement the state shows its real face. The state has massive force and almost always overreacts, but this is the states fatal weakness. Unite and fight!","author":"a.k.","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 15:52:12","modified":"2000-08-19 16:04:57","fileurl":""},{"id":2549,"heading":"response to DJK","article":"The question now is what and how can you help to prepare a revolutionary body for self-defense against a well armed and well trained violent body (bodies).  Are you ready to pony up the the rail and be the great big sacrifical lamb?  I have been in the line watching as the police come at you with their batons, riot shields and pepper spray tanks.  It is hard for one person to want to stand against that wave of black and blue riot gear.  I have watched as the numbers of Police have been dwarfed by those of the protestors, and still the police have been able to back down and divide an empassioned crowd, by using thug and street psychology.  The psychology of posturing and physical escalation.  A man is just a man, regardless of the uniform he wears.  If you want to triumph over the violence, in a situation where physical endangerment is emminent, and not just engage in symbolic mass arrests; where as evident in philly more physical endangerment occurs.  Then you have to be the one who pushes back, that watches and waits for a moment when the police have seperated one protestor from the mass and is attacking and brutalizing his\/her rights, and then you have to be willing to quickly organize and liberate.  The fact is that at a protest, the disenchanted have the numbers, you have to use that.  Use the crowd, disapear amongst the melee and chaos of police brutality.  If you want to do it, start out slow.","author":"Seamus Twomey","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 15:55:00","modified":"2000-08-19 16:09:43","fileurl":""},{"id":2556,"heading":"Terror cops","article":"This video make me remember the time, when I was 10 and\r\nlived in Poland in the early 80ties. This was the time when\r\nthe communists estamilished the martial law.\r\n\r\nBrainlock","author":"Brainlock","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:09:43","modified":"2000-08-19 16:22:50","fileurl":""},{"id":2558,"heading":"what is there left to do","article":"We can not fight the police but we can fight the system.  We need to keep within the solidarity of our revolution.  We need to amend the constitution so the actions of the police are not backed up legally, where they can get away with these acts of harassment and censorship.  The Police act in this way because it is their job, under the constitution.  We fought for civil rights.  We need to fight for our rights in the streets, not just in our work place or our home.","author":"holly star 24","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:13:47","modified":"2000-08-19 16:27:16","fileurl":""},{"id":2564,"heading":"Storm Troopers","article":"Either these plolice should quit their jobs or be judged by history the way the nazi S.S. were. They feel smug now. But their not gonna feel so great when their children and grandchildren realise they brutalised and repressed the people, that they used violence the destroy freedom and attempt to turn democracy into the dictatorship of the rich. If they think they are defending America they got a rude awakening coming in the future, they will be known as traitors, just like the SS. Quit your jobs !!!!!!!Join the people. Then history will know you as a true hero!","author":"LB","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:29:17","modified":"2000-08-19 16:41:19","fileurl":""},{"id":2567,"heading":"Poor Babies!","article":"Folks, I grew up in the 60's and what you experienced was nothing.  You got moved out of a subway station - BFD.  You got moved down the street - BFD.  This is much ado about nothing.  The media generation's concept of activism.\r\n\r\nPretty pitiful folks.","author":"Webster","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:41:23","modified":"2000-08-19 16:53:25","fileurl":""},{"id":2572,"heading":"Police are Community","article":"The police are members of our community too. Therefore, there is no reason why an attempt to reason with them should not be made. If the effort being made by the people of this nation does not include all the people of this nation, than we are no better than the rest. \r\nI don't agree with the actions of the police in these circumstances. I live in Seattle and was a part of the protest here. And at the time all I think was, \"how can I remind these men and women in uniform that we all live here together. We are all part of the same community. What happens to us, will eventually happen to them. Let us not forget we are all human, with families and emotions and ideals. If we all can find a way to cooperate the possibilities will be limitless.\r\nDon't hate them simply because they wear a uniform. Don't hate the protest moderaters because the choose to negotiate. They do it on your behalf. Applaud them for their effort. And continue the struggle in solidarity.\r\nPeace.","author":"S. Morrison","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:57:58","modified":"2000-08-19 17:13:30","fileurl":""},{"id":2574,"heading":"LAPD makes it difficult to remain peaceful","article":"Who was it that said \"Outlawing peaceful protest make violent protest inevitable?  Thank you for the incredibly brave individuals that put their ass on the line in LA. to expose the truth so often distorted by the corporate-controlled (mainstream, i.e. propaganda)  media.","author":"Matthew","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 16:58:21","modified":"2000-08-19 17:13:30","fileurl":""},{"id":2589,"heading":"Response to this Webster Moron","article":"Obviously the only thing Webster did during the 60's was grow up.  We don't need some bitter old man that has never even seen a riot cop in person to tell us that we are not genuine activists.  Fuck Off Webster.  Revolution now!","author":"D'Sweet","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 17:29:18","modified":"2000-08-19 17:41:53","fileurl":""},{"id":2597,"heading":"Oh Grow Up","article":"You're totally ineffective as protestors.  Protests are about raising social awareness.  They're about effecting social change.  They're not about posting video clips of those police meanies on a web site.\r\n\r\nYes, tangling with the police is an effective way to get some coverage on national newscasts, but you've been TOTALLY ineffective in getting any meaningful message across.  What are the protests about?  What are the issues?  None of this has received the slightest coverage in the mainstream press.  The average American has NO IDEA why you're there or what you're trying to accomplish.\r\n\r\nSocial conciousness has not been raised on any significant level.  No change will come about as a result of this week's activities.  You said \"Revolution now\", but revolution against what?  The price of Oreos?\r\n\r\nJust showing up and making a lot of noise isn't effective.  You will all be forgotten by Monday.  You have accomplished nothing.","author":"Webster","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 17:46:36","modified":"2000-08-19 18:54:35","fileurl":""},{"id":2603,"heading":"Don't Blame Protests For...","article":"the irresponsibility of the corporate media, asshole. Even you should be aware the mainstream media tried to screw \"you guys\" over too. They greatly ignored the constant, racist police violence in minority neighborhoods and distorted the seriousness of the issues the activists were protesting about...and the activists themselves were often demonized.\r\n\r\n\"The 60s\" had lower-class riots. The 60s had a war in which MANY people questioned and was VERY public right off the bat. It didn't take years of activism to bring this hidden Vietnam War to the public spotlight, it was already there. The times are different. Situations are different. The media (TV, newspapers, and radio) are in FAR fewer hands and they even operate differently than the 60s (more about entertainment and profits and less about journalistic integrity). People spend hours making these huge puppets that CLEARLY state why they're there. People spend tons of time and money making signs and posters. People spend tons of time and money making and distributing leaflets. People spend tons of time and money just to be there. And you think this is not enough because the current mainstream media is ignoring it? You're out of your fucking mind. ","author":"jasons","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:04:57","modified":"2000-08-19 18:18:32","fileurl":""},{"id":2605,"heading":"Rebels without a Clue","article":"Title says it all.","author":"Webster","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:07:03","modified":"2000-08-19 18:20:29","fileurl":""},{"id":2611,"heading":"What to do next?","article":"I disagree with webster's point about this video--the protesters did not have to get the message across because they were no longer protesting, but peacefully leaving the scene at that time.  This is an evidence of police brutality that many people in my generation do not believe is happening--and we need evidence.  We need to see it ourselves.\r\n\r\nI was there only on Monday for one day, so I did believe the protesters were overwhemingly peaceful.  So I believe in the abuse of power and violence by the police.  Now the question posted as to what to do next--should we work from inside or outside?  Those who desire to work from outside would say that we should start a revolution, those who prefer to work within the system prefers to continually deal with the LAPD complaint department, court, media, etc.  I think--if given more momentum--it is time to form a new movement that incorporate the two groups and use both tactics, yet to remain two separate organizations--so one could aid another.\r\n\r\nAnd I do believe video like this raise awareness to myself, to people who live in the middle-class neighborhood.  It helps dismentale the media's and LAPD's  falsy reports.\r\n\r\n\r\n ","author":"Gordon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:27:08","modified":"2000-08-19 18:39:36","fileurl":""},{"id":2615,"heading":"escalation has no end","article":"Getting into a physical confrontation with a cop is crazy, unless your life is on the line.  Police are trained to escalate confrontation several steps beyond what their opponent is doing.  They believe this will allow them to control the situation by setting the level of conflict.  This goes all the way to shooting you for brandishing a melee weapon (stick, rock, bottle, bottle opener, candy bar - cops have shot and killed people, and walked, for \"defending\" themselves against being threatened with a wine opener and \"mistaking\" a candy bar for a gun).  Physical confrontation with cops will accomplish nothing in our current political climate except for getting your ass kicked and going to jail.  Like all heavily armed and irrational gang members, they should be avoided at all costs.","author":"ted","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:34:26","modified":"2000-08-19 18:46:48","fileurl":""},{"id":2619,"heading":"Rebel for Meaningful Causes","article":"I do not believe Webster really understand the emergence of a new movement.  Right now, tghe people who protest in the the DNC may composed of fragmented interest groups who are angry at specific issues--prison industry, gays and lesbians rights, police brutality, corporate control, the stigmatization of teachers in public schools, racism, workers' rights and sweatshop labor, death penalty, abortion rights--ALL OF WHICH ARE WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IGNORED.  And you call this  \"Rebel without a clue?\"  \r\n\r\nNow people should become to increasingly understand that there is a comon theme\/cause across these seemingly issues, which is the corporate power and greed.","author":"Gordon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:39:35","modified":"2000-08-19 18:53:00","fileurl":""},{"id":2623,"heading":"Sixties Activists","article":"Sorry Webster, \r\n\r\nI know it's it's hard to believe that you were just as active and committed to social change back in your day as thousands of young people around the world are today. You sound like many in your generation. BITTER. Bitter that you sold out ... bitter that you havn't done anything accept perpetuate the status quo - turned a blind eye to the global south - and have gone numb, with millions of your peers, fallen for a capatalists consumer lifestyle. For all your experience, you seem to have become completely relient on capatalist system (corporate media etc...) I suppose you don't believe we will change your capatalist system because your movement failed. Well this is new... our leaders won't stumble and lead us astray because we have none. We are in this for the long haul... this is only the beginning. It's hard to believe that, seemingly, out of nowhere we are pushing the state around in ways it hasn't seen in a long time - but we aren't going to be scared off by the LAPD - FBI - CIA or any other repressive regime worldwide... we are concious of the commitment necessary to bring on an equal, just, sustainable, and a truly democratic society... and democratising the media is the beginning. The corporate press are interested in only 3 things...profit, profit and more profit!!! They will never represent our campaing accuratly because it is working to undermine there biggest advertisers and the way that they determine what how and why the zombies tuning in each day think and therefore consume. Indymedia is one step in the right direction. Directly challenging the corporate media and asking the question of why so the elite talking to the elite is soo credible ? Indymedia incourages people to tell their stories to the world... it's open ... it's democratic and it's relativly free and accessible (micro radio - free press - community TV and Radio etc...) We are small and so are our victories but they are there and we will learn from (y)our mistakes. If you don't like what you see going on the streets then get ACTIVE. Get off the couch... turn off CNN and come organize with us... bring your friends and all your experience from the 60's and 70's and you will be well recieved -- I promise. But leave the divisive attitude and ego at the door. \r\n\r\nI look forward to seeing you in the streets... working hard to abolish our oppressive capatalist situation.\r\n\r\n","author":"idealistic committed youth","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:43:23","modified":"2000-08-19 18:56:24","fileurl":""},{"id":2625,"heading":"who wants to confront the cops?","article":"those people were PEACEFULLY leaving, ted.  The cops confronted them, not the other way around.  ","author":"g","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:43:44","modified":"2000-08-19 18:56:24","fileurl":""},{"id":2627,"heading":"THE ONLY ANSWER","article":"the only answer:\r\narmed resistance.\r\n\r\n","author":"we the people","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:46:48","modified":"2000-08-19 18:58:56","fileurl":""},{"id":2629,"heading":"this isn't the sixties","article":"hey webster:\r\n\r\nyou say you grew up in the sixties,\r\nso what did you accomplish? \r\n\r\nyou think just because your mind has changed and you can now safely tolerate *just a little bit* of fascism, that you feel the need to bash those who see it for how it is?\r\n\r\nyeah, maybe they didn't shoot people like Nat'l Guard did at Kent State in '70, but we don't want it to come to that. we see the signs of it happening all over again, but this time around we want to win, not just sell out after 10 or 12 years and become part of the problem.\r\n\r\nwake up or shut up.","author":"spina","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:53:00","modified":"2000-08-19 19:09:49","fileurl":""},{"id":2631,"heading":"no, webster, this says it all...","article":"...\" \"The 60s\" had lower-class riots... \"\r\n\r\nthese are a lot of barely 20 somethings, your kids & grandkids, actually, who have been raised on the concepts of: instant gratification; cliques &\/or gangs (an economic distinction) including online as opposed to community; video game violence in which their peers are the corporate stooges & they happily work with the established corporations especially financial & media; the idea from their parents that they are entitled & don't need to work & earn anything like respect. \r\n\r\nno, there weren't \"lower class\" riots in la. the d2kla organizers had quite a struggle to even get different groups to coordinate, with a concern like the death penalty & the impending execution of mumia abu jamal (the 2 executions in texas didn't even get a mention by the clique that runs this upper class \"art world alternative\" media site, la.indymedia.org), where there's a definite & irrevocable deadline, getting eclipsed by those who intended to provoke the lapd, young males, mostly white,  with no intention of staying around after this when \"lower class\" people of color & women are now left behind to deal with lapd brutality on a daily basis. all i can think of, with all the quotes thrown around by ghandi & mlk, is how they stayed in jail, even when police tried to release them, how they & their followers stayed around to keep working on the problems after they started actions, they didn't treat their actions like concerts, with everyone running from venue to venue.\r\n\r\nalso, if this site (la.indymedia.org) is so non corporate, is opposed to corporate media & is supposed to be an outlet for \"the people\" who don't get to tell their own stories,\r\nthen why oh why does this site, in all formats, rely on so heavily on so much information produced by established corporate media, corporate academia, etc.? why did this clique censor their own staff members stories? is anyone going to count how many la times, village voice, etc., articles got the big official headlines? think some of these people (la.indymedia.org), just like the \"lower class\" janitors & other laborers, can't wait to get  corporate media jobs as long as they get those positions to which they deem themselves entitled? would be real interesting to follow up on, no?","author":"\/","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:55:18","modified":"2000-08-19 19:09:49","fileurl":""},{"id":2632,"heading":"Armed Resistance?","article":"Then you better be ready to die dude.  The cops are better equiped, better armed and better trained than you are.  They have body armor, night vision sights and fully automatic weapons.  You might get off a shot or two, then you'll be toast.","author":"Nono","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 18:56:23","modified":"2000-08-19 19:09:49","fileurl":""},{"id":2636,"heading":"not a rebel not a cause","article":"well webster. maybee you were there in the 60's maybee not i dont know.  my parent were and they sound like you in a way too.  you all \"really had a cause\" we \"dont\"??  here's a question \"what have you done lately?  so you were there in the 60's and you know how protests should be, then how come your not out protesting and helping us organize? let me take a guess--you sold out and joined up and now you are the status quo you used to fight against. so step aside old man cause we're sick of your status quo and we intend to do something about it. if we're rebels without a clue your not helping to clue us in and you dont sound like your rebeling. your just a washed up has been who thinks they know whats good for me when really you dont know shit about me.  i'm not only clued in i'm on to you and your kind too.  ex-radical who doesnt know what to do.","author":"son of your generation","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 19:00:36","modified":"2000-08-19 19:13:19","fileurl":""},{"id":2638,"heading":"The Media Generation","article":"I'm truly glad that I've managed to foster some meaningful discussion (apart from the eloquent f**k you commentary).\r\n\r\nThis media generation has been raised on soundbites and video clips.  Theur attention span has been shaped by video games and MTV medai (no subject over 3 minutes please).  Their protests reflect this in their lack of focus and organization.  They are an eclectic gathering of prople with issues all over the spectrun - from animal rights to police brutality, yet there is no clear message to emerge.  I read the alternative media (I'm here aren't I) and I still see no focus - just a shotgun approach to all things that hack them off.\r\n\r\nYou lack the focus to effect change outside the system and lack the organization to effect change inside the system.  This is not a judgement of your values and issues, just an observation from one who has been around the block a few times.\r\n\r\nAfter this week, you'll disburse and fade into the background, leaving the residents of LA to deal with the aftermath of your 'protest party' and then you'll appear again briefly for your next one disappearing once again.\r\n\r\nIf you look at the successful protest movements of the past, they were focused, organized and *sustained*- and they changed the world.  Take a esson from them and change your approach and you could be just as successful.","author":"Webster","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 19:09:48","modified":"2000-08-19 19:24:17","fileurl":""},{"id":2657,"heading":"You Shouldn't Talk to Cops--A retort","article":"To the person who said that he was ahamed of protesters negotiating with police and that it \"set our movement back immensely,\"  well...it just ain't true and that's the kind of purest stance that will keep our movement small and ineffectual.  Any fool will tell you, you don't have a revoloution until you turn the cops and some of the military., The real challenge is not heckling cops--as if that raises anybody's consciousness--it is to make them see themselves as us rather than them. They have to relate more to the protesters than their bosses. Same goes for people on the street. In LA we marched through areas where we were the only white people and the latinos of the neighborhood looked on like we we're freaks. They didn't see themselves in us either. Until theses gaps are bridged-- and the won't be by throwing a brick at a random McDonald's dressed in the faux poverty look that priveledged white folks favor and screaming pig at some black or Latino cop--until we are up to these challenges, we ain't having no revoloution. We're having a different kind of frat party.","author":"vanessa veselka","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:03:33","modified":"2000-08-19 20:19:39","fileurl":""},{"id":2668,"heading":"Webster, webster...","article":"To address the myriad of emails regarding Websters comments...\r\n1) He's not all that wrong in his intitial statement. The tendency to scream Police Brutality at every engagement will hurt us.  On the other hand, it is wrong to become complacent about the way cops act. \r\n\tI see it like this...Know that the cops are going to be brutal and stop acting shocked and sqealing. Cops have always been brutal when threatened and Webster is right, you ain't seen nothing yet..This does not, however, make their behavior less horrendous, it just means that you take it into account. That's what we're facing.\r\n2) Webster's comments that we are ineffective...I worry about that too. We are in no way as organized as SNCC or SDS-in fact, comparisons are a joke. I would warn people who are using the 60s sellout attack to consider their sources. Mass Corporate Media spent the entire 80s rewriting history and showing feel good pieces on ex-hippies that grew up and joined straight society. Family Ties, The Big Chill...these were stories designed to trivialize the experience of political consciousness and to paint it as some sort of rite of passage with better drugs. Much the same way movies about generation X have been portraying this generation as well meaning oafs who are so cute when they try to talk. So .. I'm just saying, look at where your information comes from.\r\n3) Having said all that..Webster is a jerk. Why bother wrestling over  stuff with someone who makes no effort to help or underdstand and acts like a teen ager? We still need to look at what he said and see what part is true.","author":"vanessa veselka","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:27:22","modified":"2000-08-19 20:44:16","fileurl":""},{"id":2672,"heading":"The style of these protests have nothing...","article":"to do with attention span and MTV. \r\n\r\n\"The 60s\" were more hierarchal. There were really two very obvious problems people rallied behind. The Vietnam War and civil rights...equal treatment for all. \r\n\r\nThe difference now is it is not hierarchal  the way it was then, the many \"causes\" actually branch off two main roots (power\/hierarchy and money), but if people started protesting those things specifically, we'd be REALLY outcasted. \r\n\r\n\"The 60s\" also didn't have the Internet, so movements were slowly built (until the heat of the Vietnam War rose) starting in universities and neighborhoods until it reached a climax. Now these things are being done SIMULTANEOUSLY with the major protests. People are educating in universities, in neighborhoods, building local activism and community, etc. \r\n\r\nYou're trying to understand things in relation to what happened then. It is just not logical. You also seem to ignore all of the activism that has happened between now and then. Much of that was from the fragmentation of \"The 60s\" and moving into new areas besides those limited few \"causes.\" At this point we're finally bonding those together, in an anarchist manner...and YOU want people to drop everything they've built for 30 years to follow some VERY specific, co-optable goals? To go back to a stage of activism that is over 30 years old...from a different time and place?\r\n\r\nAlso, when you're talking about focusing on something specific and very easily digestable, you're talking in terms of co-option. This sort of thinking implies the people simply want the parties to co-opt the causes as many of the activists of the 60s did (to end the Vietnam War and help out the poor and minorities more). I think many people today simply don't trust either of those parties (for good reason obviously), or even any at all, so there is no reason to try to work with them and make things easy for them if we don't want them around. \r\n\r\nWe want to bother them, we want to humiliate them, we want to demolish their power over millions of people, and we want to educate and liberate our fellow humans. We want them to talk about what they care about with each other and their communities and to bring those issues before those who are responsible for creating them. We don't want to recruit people to join a single cause or party. ","author":"Anonymous","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:44:16","modified":"2000-08-19 20:56:26","fileurl":""},{"id":2674,"heading":"Rebels With Too Many Causes","article":"The end of this article makes a good point. \r\n\r\nAnd that quote below illustrates the ignorance the outside political movement experts have. \"Hmmm...no leadership! That can't work!\" \r\n\r\nCBS News http:\/\/cbsnews.cbs.com\/now\/story\/0,1597,225855-412,00.shtml\r\nRebels With Too Many Causes \r\n\r\nA Big Year For Demonstrations... \r\nBut Too Few Leaders, Too Many Causes \r\nBy CBS News' Ann Burr Clevenger \r\n\r\n\"A successful movement needs three things: a serious leadership,\r\ntargeted issues and a plan of action. What's happening here seems to\r\nhave none of these.\"\r\nJack Duvall,\r\nco-author, A Force More Powerful  \r\n \r\nFinal Day Of Protests \r\n \r\nLOS ANGELES, August 18, 2000\r\n  \r\nAP  \r\n(CBS) From Gandhi to the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement,\r\ngreat things have been put into motion using the tools of civil\r\ndisobedience, nonviolent protest and \"direct action.\" This has been a\r\nbig year for demonstrations. From Washington State to Washington D.C.,\r\nthere have been people on the street in larger numbers than the\r\ncountry has seen in decades. \r\n\r\nIs civil disobedience still an effective force for change, or have\r\nchanges in the country - and the movement - made this type of activism\r\nobsolete? \r\n\r\nHere in Los Angeles, and two weeks ago in Philadelphia, there were\r\nmarches, protests and sometimes violent action to disrupt planned\r\nevents - some of them highly organized and others scattered and\r\nchaotic. But the media coverage has been relatively light, and if the\r\nprotesters' goal was to mobilize the nation behind their causes, they\r\nare sure to be disappointed. \r\n\r\nPerhaps one of the reasons for this is the causes themselves. Jack\r\nDuvall and Peter Ackerman are the co-authors of A Force More Powerful,\r\na book that takes a look at the nonviolent movements of the 20th\r\ncentury. While they admit that this new resurgence of activism has\r\nenergy, they don't see much else. \"Their lives are not in danger,\r\ntheir freedoms are not in danger and their property is not in danger,\"\r\nsaid Ackerman. \"These actions are petty and will not be remembered.\" \r\n\r\nAnother problem is the sheer number of causes. When you go to the\r\ndemonstrators, or even their Web sites, there is a veritable laundry\r\nlist of grievances: They are anti-death penalty, anti-police brutality\r\nand anti-globalization; pro-choice and pro-environment; against\r\nsanctions against Iraq, and on and on. \r\n\r\n\"These people have yet to coalesce behind a leader or a specific\r\ncause,\" Duvall said. \"A successful movement needs three things: a\r\nserious leadership, targeted issues and a plan of action. What's\r\nhappening here seems to have none of these.\" \r\n\r\nThere are people within the movement who agree with this - to some\r\nextent. \"It's an entirely different movement,\" said Michael Everett\r\n[IATSE Local 728, Hollywood], a protest movement veteran who took part\r\nin the demonstrations at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago. \r\n\r\n\"We don't really have leaders anymore, we just have people who do more\r\nwork than others,\" he said. But Everett sees a common denominator to\r\nmany of these issues. \"The underlying thing is the corporatization of\r\npublic policy. People are out there now because they feel they have\r\nbeen shut out of the system.\" \r\n\r\nEverett is impressed with the new generation of activists he saw in\r\nSeattle. He even has a couple of anarchists staying with him for the\r\nevents in Los Angeles, including Frank Salerno [IATSE Local 834,\r\nAtlanta], who said Everett is not the only person he knows who has\r\nbeen around the movement for a while. \r\n\r\n\"There are a lot of people like Mike here who never gave up,\" said\r\nSalerno, who feels the same about his presence on the streets as\r\nEverett did in the '60s. \"I am out here because I have no option not\r\nto be.\" \r\n\r\nCheri Honkala, a veteran organizer who worked on the March for\r\nEconomic Human Rights in Philadelphia, said that protest is still an\r\neffective form of communication. \r\n\r\n\"Thousands of people risked arrest to talk about poverty and\r\nhomelessness,\" she said. \"And as a result we've been contacted by\r\nmembers of both the Gore and Bush campaigns and look forward to\r\ntalking to them after the conventions are over.\" \r\n\r\nAnother factor could be one of perspective. \"At the time, the leaders\r\nof the civil rights movement and the people against the war in Vietnam\r\nwere trashed,\" Honkala said. \r\n\r\nEverett agreed. \"Only in hindsight are they given any credit. I have\r\nno doubt that when people look back on this year they will see it as\r\nthe beginning of something huge.\" \r\n\r\nFormer anti-war activist Tom Hayden thinks it's already something\r\nhuge. \r\n\r\n\"Mainstream discourse has already begun to happen,\" said Hayden, now a\r\nCalifornia state senator, who was on his way to the March for Global\r\nEconomic Justice in L.A. \"In the beginning, movements are always\r\nconsidered suspect because they have ideas the establishment hasn't\r\nheard. I'm sure the people at the Boston Tea Party were attacked for\r\nthe same reasons.\" ","author":"CBS News","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:53:36","modified":"2000-08-19 21:06:11","fileurl":""},{"id":2675,"heading":"OK Webster","article":"Ok Webster, I just couldn't let you slide with your supposedly wisened critique of todays movement. In 1967 at the age of 17, I hitch-hiked from Maine to DC to demonstrate against the Viet Nam war.That was the first of 5 trips I made there to oppose the war.  Somehow I doubt that I saw you there. What pisses me off about most of us baby boomers, is that we forget that in youth a person is a lot readier to see and tell the truth, before all the years of being lulled and ground down by just plain trying to survive. So be it, but realise there is nothing so profound and earth shaking about that. I think its something more to be a bit ashamed of. You know we were RIGHT about Viet Nam.  So it makes sense to listen now, I have, and they are on to the TRUTH. A truth bigger than most truths before. I was in DC blockading at the World Bank and let me tell you we were close to the very heart of the beast.This is no joke my friend! What I have to say to others in my generation, better take head! these people are standing up against powers that we for the most part are too cowardly to recognise at a time when the cement is hardening on the complete hi-jacking of the world and its resourses.Time to wake up my friends.    And a comment to the new generation of activists; I was there, Woodstock and the rest, Like every bunch of young people most folks were there wearing the beads, long hair etc. just to fit in and not be uncool. After all, how else could you meet chicks?? The true idealists were far and in between, any one can wear a uniform ( a good thing to remember!! ). As the years passed, that became obvious. We didn't sell out, so much as most of us weren't for real to begin with! I will tell you, some of us are still here and with you ALL the way.   Power to the People, now and forever!!!  ","author":"EASTofedon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:54:45","modified":"2000-08-19 21:07:18","fileurl":""},{"id":2677,"heading":"What do we do?","article":"Do we work inside our outside the system?\r\n\r\nWe do both.  This isn't a unified single-purpose movement, it's a multiplicity of movements in coalition.  We work inside the system.  We oppose the system.  We work inside the prisons.  We work from outside the prisons.  We work in our neighborhoods and also on the national and international political movements.  The farther we move the fringe, the farther we shift the main stream.\r\n\r\nYou do the thing you're comfortable doing and thank the person farther from the mainstream than you are (and there always is someone farther out there) for making your place in the movement a little safer and closer to achieving something.","author":"bracken","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 20:56:25","modified":"2000-08-19 21:09:12","fileurl":""},{"id":2684,"heading":"Thanks Vanessa...","article":"...for calling me a jerk - its about the nicest thing anyone has said to me on this board.\r\n\r\nI'm trying to hold up a mirror here, to let you see how your protests look from the outside.  Self examination can be a painful process.\r\n\r\nAs to the comment of my 'selling out' - You may be right - it depends on your definition.  I'm now in my late 40's and I am far too old to go toe-to-toe with a 25 year old cop in riot gear.  The causes I still care about, I work from within the system now.  Letters to congressmen, community involvement and through my church.  I don't really consider that to be 'sold out'.\r\n\r\nYou can call me anything you please, It means nothing from people I don't know and that don't know me.  If you want to effect change, you need to re-access your strategies and especially your tactics.  \r\n\r\nAntagonizing the cops and making the evening news once every 3 to 4 months won't get you anywhere, especially if you have no clear message to convey.  You're percieved by mainstream America as a bunch of over-indulged Gen X kids that figure if they whine long enough they'll get their way.  I realize that this is not an accurate portrayal, but I believe it is an accurate description of the mainstream perception and for most people, perception is reality.\r\n\r\nI'll ask the questions again - Where is your focus?  What are your issues?  Where are your leaders?  What is your message?  What are your goals?  How will you know when you are successful?  \r\n\r\nUntil you can answer these questions, you'll remain insignificant and in the background.  When you make the news again, America will yawn and say \"Its those kids again\" and that will be the sum total of the reaction.  They need to hear a unified voice definig the issues you care about.  We're not hearing that today.  You can blame the media if you wish, but they were'nt exactly friendly to us in the 60's either.\r\n\r\nLike I said, self examination can be painful - but its also rewarding.","author":"Webster","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 21:03:55","modified":"2000-08-19 21:19:58","fileurl":""},{"id":2701,"heading":"Webster---Again","article":"Webster, Ithink we are the same aprox. age. Of course you remember the \"Reagon Era\" Thats when I realised our 'numbers' were an illusion. Maybe it's where I was living, but I looked around and it seemed everyone had dissapeared. To stay activist during that period was a truly painful experience. It was suddenly like being a voice in the wilderness. Always risking the ridicule of those who were finally getting 'theirs'( sound familiar? )   The fucking cocaine, Rambo and all the rest.It was all an orgy of selfishness.  We, the baby boomers, are now the ones in power, and look whats happened.The environment that we supposedly cared so much about is just plain trashed. People, who we supposedly cared so much about, are working in sweatshops to make our clothes. Should I go on? My point is, I am now both feet in this movement and there is lots of room for dicussion and critique but we need people like you to join us instead of critising from the outside.The stakes are high, if you really start looking beneath the surface you'll realise this is no time to sleep. I write letters to, everyday almost. Thats not enough!! Come join us, time is running out. You don't have to demonstrate but support us by telling people the truth that you know the media isn't telling. This is for real, you know how powerful they are. We need people, especially those of us who could be the parents to a lot of these folks, helping, looking deep into the World Bank the WTO, the Corporate strangled Media.Educate yourself about this stuff then tell people the truth. Did you know that the military is now becoming the police? That is NOT supposed to happen. This is dangerous and the people you criticise are going to take the brunt of this police state. Please look further. Enough said Peace,  East  ","author":"EASTofedon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 21:56:50","modified":"2000-08-19 22:13:11","fileurl":""},{"id":2702,"heading":"Who do you work for?","article":"Dear Mr. \"Armed Resistance\",  I'm sure you've heard the term \"agent provocateur\".  There's nothing the \"police\" would love more than to be able to display confiscated weapons at a press conference.  Information and education is what it's about.  Mr. Webster, that subway video is exactly what needs to be shown, but not on this \"leftie\" website (preaching to the choir).  We need to connect with people, not alienate them.","author":"P@t","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 22:08:34","modified":"2000-08-19 22:21:00","fileurl":""},{"id":2709,"heading":"WhaaaaaaasUp Webster?","article":"Webster - I appreciate your input here and I'm glad you are engaging this important debate. This is why Indymedia is so important. Could you ever do this ( uncensored) on CNN. - With each and Every story they post ? While Indymedia is not perfect it is 10 months young and has already grown to over 25 locals... there is a briht future here for open publishing... I hope you'll get involved in LA if that's were your from. Unless you have a problem with open publishing and open debate but I doubt it. \r\n\r\nTo respond directly... \r\n\r\nI think we've all sold out in our lives to certain degree... I think the important thing is to be concous of what you consume and how it shapes you  (physically - mentally - spiritually etc... also the inherent intrest in those producing what you consume Corp Media = profit (CNN had US Army PsyOps in their Newsroom so they may be up to mre than just profit and who knows where else these military folks have placed people --- Indy media =  open diolouge like this Information from a diversity of perspectives in order to find NEW forms of democracy and justice - among others) I appreciate what you do within the system but I have been frustrated with the limited success and have found new tactics in working from outside of the system that satisfy my need to limit my role in the repressive capatalist regime. I know that there is room to work 'outside of the system' and not have to go toe to toe with the cops and it will only help if people like you can come and find safe role's to play in directly confronting the man.  \r\n\r\niI agree that antagonizing the cops does little but insure a bigger police presence at future demonstrations \/ protests etc... but I think it is important to remeber that it is not a strategy to provoke the cops into conforontation to make the news... most confront the cops when they limit one's right to freely express their opinion or overstep their duties... Is it right to chase people out of a subway station and club away at those who don't follow orders given to leave in 20 seconds ?? why disperse the whole crowd monday and create chaos when it's a slim minority causing trouble are not even arrested ? I believe they are looking to justify a 10 million dollar budget and insure their jobs are safe. \r\n\r\nPlease stop the rhetoric about no clear message, Get Corp. $$$ out of Govt. Clear Enough ? Get US out of Iraq and end sancations that kill innocent thousands - easy to understand -- Give a death row inmate a new trial in the face of new evidence of police corruption. - got it ? These arn't complicated demands...  \r\n\r\nYes your right for the most part with \"You're percieved by mainstream America as a bunch of over-indulged Gen X kids that figure if they whine long enough they'll get their way. I realize that this is not an accurate portrayal, but I believe it is an accurate description of the mainstream perception and for most people, perception is reality. \" This is the corporate media's doing ... everyone I talk to , for the most part, agrees with my demands for the end of capatalism ... but get nothing from hearing about the confrontational spectacle the corp. media propogates with NO REAL ANALYSIS of the issues. Honestly have you seen ever seen the corp. media make a big effort to educate their audience as to why there are thousands in the streets? No - I doubt it. It's not in their agenda as it contradicts thier interest in making money. They make money buy selling content and ads to companies and instituions are those that back the corp. media going to be happy to read an analysis of their oppressive behavior -- NO -- THEY WILL NEVER PRINT IT. That's why the mainstream is going to have to get media literate and search for alternative truths... like some of what you'll find here.\r\n\r\nMy Personal Answers to your Q's (notice I don't speak for anyon else) \r\n\r\nWhere is your focus? Bringing an end to Capatalism one small step at a time. First step is getting the 'mainstream' educated by creating independent media with the interest of exposing hidden truths.\r\n\r\nWhat are your issues? The Oppresive Nature of Capatalism - which is why you see so many with different causes in the streets...  \r\n\r\nWhere are your leaders? We have none. I lead myself in a life concious direct action and  opposition to capatalism.\r\n\r\nWhat is your message? Revolution is the Only Solution\r\n\r\nWhat are your goals? Direct Democracy\r\n\r\nHow will you know when you are successful? When i no longer see my brothers and sisters oppressed by a capatalist state.\r\n\r\n\r\nAs you say \"self examination can be painful - but its also rewarding\" only if it gets you to turn off your tv and stop judging my action in the street by how much the corp. media distorts my message. \r\n\r\nPlease join me and help create a new independant medium for educating you and your peers.\r\n\r\nThe revolution has begun and your busy watching Budwiser commercials... In a language you might understand better. WhaaaaaaaasUuuuuuuuuup with your apathy? Live the dream (in the street) you had when you were my age. If your not in the street I really don't believe you have the right to critique the action.\r\n\r\nGet involved and lead your kids (show em you know what TV can and has done to you.... don't make them lead you.","author":"fellow american","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 22:26:33","modified":"2000-08-19 22:38:40","fileurl":""},{"id":2740,"heading":"sorry, webster..","article":"You're right, Webster, I shouldn't have called you a jerk. I should have said you were acting \"jerkishly.\" That, however, seems to be all you got out of what I said because you went on to say the same stuff as you did to all the others even though 80% of my comments were agreeing with the need to raise the questions you first raised. \r\n\t1) there needs to be better analysis and deeper organization in this movement--which does not necessitate hierarchy, just simple clear thought and communication.\r\n\t2) Shouting Police Brutality in every instance is a good way to lose credibility. Especially when people of color and in poor neighborhoods get bullied daily.\r\n\tHowever, the nastyness of your tone is just astonishing. From the first post through out all of them...I'm not sure why you so vehemently want to put down the first viable social movement of recent years in this country before it even gets off the ground. Do we need to openly discuss critically, our tactics and directions? Sure, but the way you brought your criticisms to the table was like a viscious, embittered old man. (Webster, that's not a knock against your age, it's a way of describing a tone)  \r\n\tThe other thing you need to see is that if mainstream media and the IndyMedia center are your only to sources to contact protesters, you're really limiting yourself.  The corporate media won't cover anything and the IMC, which I love, is largely representitive of a certain section of protesters and not all of them. We marched with alot of people older than 40 Webster, and they were teachers and dock workers and lawyers...I second the guy before me, you should really think about working with us rather than just sending emails complaining of our inferiority to movements of the 60s.","author":"vanessa veselka","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 23:46:28","modified":"2000-08-20 00:03:25","fileurl":""},{"id":2741,"heading":"And..","article":"And...Webster. I didn't call you a sell out, the others did. I actually defended you on that one by trying to raise the issue of where the idea of sell out comes from in media portrayals of your generation.  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. ","author":"vanessa veselka","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-19 23:53:46","modified":"2000-08-20 00:07:13","fileurl":""},{"id":2742,"heading":"Webster---Again","article":"Webster, Ithink we are the same aprox. age. Of course you remember the \"Reagon Era\" Thats when I realised our 'numbers' were an illusion. Maybe it's where I was living, but I looked around and it seemed everyone had dissapeared. To stay activist during that period was a truly painful experience. It was suddenly like being a voice in the wilderness. Always risking the ridicule of those who were finally getting 'theirs'( sound familiar? )   The fucking cocaine, Rambo and all the rest.It was all an orgy of selfishness.  We, the baby boomers, are now the ones in power, and look whats happened.The environment that we supposedly cared so much about is just plain trashed. People, who we supposedly cared so much about, are working in sweatshops to make our clothes. Should I go on? My point is, I am now both feet in this movement and there is lots of room for dicussion and critique but we need people like you to join us instead of critising from the outside.The stakes are high, if you really start looking beneath the surface you'll realise this is no time to sleep. I write letters to, everyday almost. Thats not enough!! Come join us, time is running out. You don't have to demonstrate but support us by telling people the truth that you know the media isn't telling. This is for real, you know how powerful they are. We need people, especially those of us who could be the parents to a lot of these folks, helping, looking deep into the World Bank the WTO, the Corporate strangled Media.Educate yourself about this stuff then tell people the truth. Did you know that the military is now becoming the police? That is NOT supposed to happen. This is dangerous and the people you criticise are going to take the brunt of this police state. Please look further. Enough said Peace,  East  ","author":"EASTofedon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 00:03:24","modified":"2000-08-20 00:20:25","fileurl":""},{"id":2743,"heading":"Webster---Again","article":"Webster, Ithink we are the same aprox. age. Of course you remember the \"Reagon Era\" Thats when I realised our 'numbers' were an illusion. Maybe it's where I was living, but I looked around and it seemed everyone had dissapeared. To stay activist during that period was a truly painful experience. It was suddenly like being a voice in the wilderness. Always risking the ridicule of those who were finally getting 'theirs'( sound familiar? )   The fucking cocaine, Rambo and all the rest.It was all an orgy of selfishness.  We, the baby boomers, are now the ones in power, and look whats happened.The environment that we supposedly cared so much about is just plain trashed. People, who we supposedly cared so much about, are working in sweatshops to make our clothes. Should I go on? My point is, I am now both feet in this movement and there is lots of room for dicussion and critique but we need people like you to join us instead of critising from the outside.The stakes are high, if you really start looking beneath the surface you'll realise this is no time to sleep. I write letters to, everyday almost. Thats not enough!! Come join us, time is running out. You don't have to demonstrate but support us by telling people the truth that you know the media isn't telling. This is for real, you know how powerful they are. We need people, especially those of us who could be the parents to a lot of these folks, helping, looking deep into the World Bank the WTO, the Corporate strangled Media.Educate yourself about this stuff then tell people the truth. Did you know that the military is now becoming the police? That is NOT supposed to happen. This is dangerous and the people you criticise are going to take the brunt of this police state. Please look further. Enough said Peace,  East  ","author":"EASTofedon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 00:07:12","modified":"2000-08-20 00:20:25","fileurl":""},{"id":2744,"heading":"You'd be surprised","article":"Sorry didn't mean to post double..     Not sure what happened... Anyway Webster, You know how many times younger people are surprised I don't sound bitter? I'm always hearing that other people my age come of that way. Vanessa addressed it well,But there is a joy an energy that you might not understand in this movement, a beautiful positive solidarity and I invite anyone to open their hearts and minds to it. Don't sit and grump, believe me I know the syndrom well.It goes nowhere.","author":"EASTofedon","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 00:26:20","modified":"2000-08-20 00:39:53","fileurl":""},{"id":2748,"heading":"I know police attacks were unprovoked","article":"I know those in the subway were attacked without provocation.  I would go as far as to say that from the WTO until now, I have yet to see or hear about any action by any protester, even in the corporate media, that would justify a physical assault by the cops.  That's the problem.\r\n\r\nMy earlier post was in response to some discussion about confronting the police physically, which I thought was a bad idea.  As we have seen, and I stated, the cops are trained not to wait for someone else to make the first move.  They rule by fear and by making object lessons of people who mess with them.\r\n\r\nAs you mentioned, those attacked in the subway were doing nothing.  Imagine the response if someone had thrown something or gotten into a physical fight with them?\r\n\r\nWe can't win (or even survive) going head to head on the street playing by their rules.  Some of us have the stomach for that (more power to them), most of us don't.  We are many and diverse.  Our numbers grow.  Every person who knows about the IMC's or was in LA will talk to 5 or 10 other people about it.  Kids will tell their parents and show them the bruises.  Non-political by-standards will tell their friends what they saw.  The curtain gets pulled back a little more each time.\r\n\r\nWhat will work best is what is already happening.  People will return home and start working in their communities.  I found this to be true with the Micro Radio Movement. Just like in Free Radio, there are a million ways to get to our goal, that's what makes us so hard to stop.\r\n\r\nThis is not the end, it isn't even the begining.","author":"ted","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 00:44:45","modified":"2000-08-20 00:57:06","fileurl":""},{"id":2757,"heading":"Two Seconds??","article":"no...\r\nit was not two minutes\t\t\r\nbut a two minute hate\t","author":"Taylor","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 01:38:59","modified":"2000-08-20 01:51:31","fileurl":""},{"id":2759,"heading":"MTV?","article":"You think the people out there protesting actually LIKE MTV?  The people out there are the kind of people who HATE MTV.  Webster seems to think he can somehow make a valid argument against the activists of this generation because he has no idea what the issues are.  If you were out there, then you would know.  Every person has a purpose out there --- do you think people go out and risk harm by being beaten by police without having a reason?  You don't know the reasons because you are blind and don't WANT to know the reasons. ","author":"Vac","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 01:42:10","modified":"2000-08-20 01:54:20","fileurl":""},{"id":2761,"heading":"Does Webster have a pulse?","article":"This individual is living in a cave if they don't believe a message is being heard by these protests. Everywhere I look I see something about it in the local paper, CNN, the nightly news, local news, USA today, 20\/20.....do I need to go on? -And I am in ALASKA! If you don't know why they are protesting now, you will never know. The things these people are fighting for are often times different than those in the 1960's: Gay rights, animal rights, freetrade;etc. -Look it up! While the tactics may not be orthodoxed compared to the 60's protests, neither are the police tactics. PEACEFUL PROTESTING DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE, not that it did then......","author":"jae","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 01:51:30","modified":"2000-08-20 02:05:29","fileurl":""},{"id":2779,"heading":"Their freedoms not in danger?  Give me a brea","article":"Give me a break.  When I started law school in 1975, the US already had the 2nd highest incarceration rate in the world at 250 per 100,000.  Now the incarceration rate is 650 per 1000,000 and still rising.  Why?   It's not because crime has increased threefold is it?  Sure, there are many different causes, and that's because a totalitarian society cannot tolerate diversity.  I'm sixty years old, and I've recently demonstrated with a thousand others at our Provincial Legislature against Americanising our Health care system.  Many of our other concerns are similar to yours, and I sense that there is a growing sense of unity across the generations as we define ourselves and our issues.  \r\nWe, too witnessed a massive police presence following the irresponsible actions of three demonstrators .  But this was also accompanied by considerable police disinformation which few people familiar with the issues found believable.  \r\nI think the key is Indymedia and education.  This is growing at a phenominal rate and I commend all those involved for their efforts.  \"Street\" newspapers in Canada are gaining credibility and the established media are viewed with increased scepticism, especially by the young.  And it's true, many do not understand what the protests are all about, but with continued linking to credible web sites by indymedia will continue to do more than scratch the surface.  The CBS item is too shallow, but it does open the door.\r\nAs for Webster, well, I have neighbours who escaped the draft by coming to Canada.  They would never sell out, and they understand only too well the nature of the system they escaped.       ","author":"Brian Lawrence","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 02:41:31","modified":"2000-08-20 02:55:21","fileurl":""},{"id":2780,"heading":"Patience, my friend...","article":"In the 60's there was the civil rights movement, the anti war movement, the free speech movement, and the feminist movement, just to name a few. it took many years for those movements to form and become effective. I would suggest, Webster, that you too are part of the tv generation you so quickly criticize for you forget this new and dynamic movement has really just coalesced within the last year. Furthermore, this movement has a tougher climb with fewer media outlets and greater control over what gets out. Many people learned a great deal from the sixties, not the least of which is the control of information. So the messages people are communicating will take some time to reach people such as yourself.\r\n  These are smart, dedicated people involved with this movement and while criticism is helpful, one shouldn't, as they say, throw the baby out with the bathwater. Wait a few years, if you can, and then you'll see just how effective this movement will be. ","author":"nerp","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 02:51:35","modified":"2000-08-20 03:03:54","fileurl":""},{"id":2781,"heading":"Their freedoms not in danger?  Give me a brea","article":"Give me a break.  When I started law school in 1975, the US already had the 2nd highest incarceration rate in the world at 250 per 100,000.  Now the incarceration rate is 650 per 1000,000 and still rising.  Why?   It's not because crime has increased threefold is it?  Sure, there are many different causes, and that's because a totalitarian society cannot tolerate diversity.  I'm sixty years old, and I've recently demonstrated with a thousand others at our Provincial Legislature against Americanising our Health care system.  Many of our other concerns are similar to yours, and I sense that there is a growing sense of unity across the generations as we define ourselves and our issues.  \r\nWe, too witnessed a massive police presence following the irresponsible actions of three demonstrators .  But this was also accompanied by considerable police disinformation which few people familiar with the issues found believable.  \r\nI think the key is Indymedia and education.  This is growing at a phenominal rate and I commend all those involved for their efforts.  \"Street\" newspapers in Canada are gaining credibility and the established media are viewed with increased scepticism, especially by the young.  And it's true, many do not understand what the protests are all about, but with continued linking to credible web sites by indymedia will continue to do more than scratch the surface.  The CBS item is too shallow, but it does open the door.\r\nAs for Webster, well, I have neighbours who escaped the draft by coming to Canada.  They would never sell out, and they understand only too well the nature of the system they escaped.       ","author":"Brian Lawrence","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 02:52:14","modified":"2000-08-20 03:04:51","fileurl":""},{"id":2818,"heading":"Out with ageism","article":"I'd just like to say that, as a 52 year old who lived for 2 years on the road in the late 60's, I disagree with the many people my age who criticize and give unsolicited (and inflexible) advice to young protestors. By the way, they're not even all young.  I didn't march in the 60's, I was busy surviving and absorbing the growing awareness of the truth about colonialism & capitalism in the world.  I felt more alive than ever before.  Then, for various reasons, my attention was forced onto my own conditioning, which was painful, but the best thing that could have happened.  My political awareness has continued to grow & even more so in the past 10 years.  I'm self taught in the elaboratley interwoven issues that are on the streets now; my focus in my community being around the co-op movement, lesbian & gay liberation, the anti-poverty movement, animal liberation & appropriate technology (i.e., tools & products that are low-tech & don't kill life).  When I hear people my age, or any age, say that they don't hear a clear message coming from the streets, I can understand that someone might feel that way.  It has taken a lot of research, meetings, training, workshops, discussions and time for all this to happen.  For people who were not part of that process by default (like being racially ghettoized, poor, gay - you get the idea), or don't read alternative news & books, it might appear to just grow for no apparent reason. Volunteerism in church groups is great, and some, not many, religious leaders have put themselves on the line for social justice causes.  For the most part, I think that we have to go beyond putting band-aids on gaping wounds.  There is always room for learning from strategies that are perhaps not effective, and from criticism, as long as there is trust and acceptance. I think it's too early to tell what the effects of the protests will be, but I think they will and are raising awareness in a big way.  Anyway, I just wanted to let those under 30 know that there are older people out here who understand and support what you're about.  I don't listen to Bob Dylan any more. I've grown up and now listen to NIN, Sex Pistols, Pantera, Sepultura, RATM, Dead Kennedys, L7 and Tea Party.  And I still have growing to do - my definition of 'young'. Out with ageism, lets work together.  We don't need great nations, we need a great planet.   ","author":"greenrose","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 05:10:53","modified":"2000-08-20 05:34:18","fileurl":""},{"id":2839,"heading":"Webster lived in the 60s BFD","article":"Web,\r\nin case you didnt realize we are no longer in the 60s.  And though we are still learning we are not the only failure.  The 60s may have changed much of society but much of the problems then exists now.  However, the cops and the government is not stupid where the 60s movement failed the governement has learned.  So if you have a problem with us \"youngsters' trying to pick up where you left of why dont you get up, stop complaining and show us \"babies\" how it is done. If you are successful over the new and improved big brother more power to you.  \r\nBut if you were a true \"activist\" then you would probably be working and not talking.  Creating dissent in a movement only destroys the momentum.\r\nPower to the people\r\n","author":"One of them babies","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 06:42:02","modified":"2000-08-20 06:57:17","fileurl":""},{"id":2840,"heading":"This Old Beat sez - Go To It!","article":"This 62 year old Beat who never sold out - nobody ever made a good enough offer- remembers well the Civil Rights Movement.  How the cop who lived down the street told me, concern in his voice, to stay away from the march coming up because \"We're gonna teach 'em a lesson\"  I went and watched the clubs rise and fall.  I couldn't believe it.  The Policeman is NOT your friend???  Guess not.  Later, at other occasions, I got whacked too.\r\n\tThe Anti Vietnam Movement took a looooong time to get off the ground.  I recall the frustration, the feeling of a voice crying in a wilderness to a country too complacent to care.  Even when organised and functioning well, the Movement sometimes had an air of hopeless desperation.  Will any of this make a difference.  No matter.  We soldiered - if you'll pardon the expression - on.  Nonviolence is the only safe tactic to use against a heavily armed force.  Look what happened to the South, 1861-5.  Remember the police massacre of the Symbionese Liberation Army?  Surrender?  No way.  They were not permitted to surrender.  They were shot and burned alive with no mercy.  \r\n\tDid we have any positive effect with all our marching and demonstrating?  Yes.  The President wanted to use the Bomb in Vietnam and was deterred only by the assessment that, if he did, there would be blood in the streets of cities across America the next day.  That alone is a victory in my eyes, worth all those long tedious meetings, all those late nights planning actions, all those exhilarating and scary moments when we took it to the streets.  \r\n\tThe Left discredited itsself - that manipulo-Marxoid plotting and scheming how to turn the movement into a Workers' Revolution. It tried to impose an irrelevant pattern  on the Movement.  It was sexist (remeber \"Chicks Up Front\"?) Nobody likes to be used, and when people found out that they were, the Left lost credibility.  Rightly so.    \r\n\tIt gladdens this ol' heart to see the black banner once again advancing against the police.  I remember the exhilaration I felt when I placed a black and red flag on our barricade during the Stop the Draft Week militant action.  Hard hats, steel toes, lots of bandanas, water and vinegar.  We tied up Oakland.  Sure, the busses with the draftees got through eventually, but the point has to be made again and again and again.  \r\n\tI'm not in Ellay this week.  My Social Security pittance needs augmenting, and I had a week's work - not too easy to find after you're 50.  Economic survival needs must take precedence.  I've been following the news as best I can, am concerned that the woman videographer dragged from the station might be my housemate, who is there with camera and goes where others fear to tread.  \r\n\tKeep on keeping on.  What we did Back Then didn't work, or YOU wouldn't have to be there today.  Thanks for picking up the torch.  To Hell with the naysayers.  Advice?  OK=\r\nEDUCATE.  AGITATE.  ORGANIZE.   It's hard work and not very glamorous, but it is effective. Try to work toward goals that can easily be attained.  One step at a time.  Your successes will breed confidence.  Take it easy -- BUT TAKE IT! ","author":"Douglas","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 06:57:17","modified":"2000-08-20 07:20:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2841,"heading":"This Old Beat sez - Go To It!","article":"This 62 year old Beat who never sold out - nobody ever made a good enough offer- remembers well the Civil Rights Movement.  How the cop who lived down the street told me, concern in his voice, to stay away from the march coming up because \"We're gonna teach 'em a lesson\"  I went and watched the clubs rise and fall.  I couldn't believe it.  The Policeman is NOT your friend???  Guess not.  Later, at other occasions, I got whacked too.\r\n\tThe Anti Vietnam Movement took a looooong time to get off the ground.  I recall the frustration, the feeling of a voice crying in a wilderness to a country too complacent to care.  Even when organised and functioning well, the Movement sometimes had an air of hopeless desperation.  Will any of this make a difference.  No matter.  We soldiered - if you'll pardon the expression - on.  Nonviolence is the only safe tactic to use against a heavily armed force.  Look what happened to the South, 1861-5.  Remember the police massacre of the Symbionese Liberation Army?  Surrender?  No way.  They were not permitted to surrender.  They were shot and burned alive with no mercy.  \r\n\tDid we have any positive effect with all our marching and demonstrating?  Yes.  The President wanted to use the Bomb in Vietnam and was deterred only by the assessment that, if he did, there would be blood in the streets of cities across America the next day.  That alone is a victory in my eyes, worth all those long tedious meetings, all those late nights planning actions, all those exhilarating and scary moments when we took it to the streets.  \r\n\tThe Left discredited itsself - that manipulo-Marxoid plotting and scheming how to turn the movement into a Workers' Revolution. It tried to impose an irrelevant pattern  on the Movement.  It was sexist (remeber \"Chicks Up Front\"?) Nobody likes to be used, and when people found out that they were, the Left lost credibility.  Rightly so.    \r\n\tIt gladdens this ol' heart to see the black banner once again advancing against the police.  I remember the exhilaration I felt when I placed a black and red flag on our barricade during the Stop the Draft Week militant action.  Hard hats, steel toes, lots of bandanas, water and vinegar.  We tied up Oakland.  Sure, the busses with the draftees got through eventually, but the point has to be made again and again and again.  \r\n\tI'm not in Ellay this week.  My Social Security pittance needs augmenting, and I had a week's work - not too easy to find after you're 50.  Economic survival needs must take precedence.  I've been following the news as best I can, am concerned that the woman videographer dragged from the station might be my housemate, who is there with camera and goes where others fear to tread.  \r\n\tKeep on keeping on.  What we did Back Then didn't work, or YOU wouldn't have to be there today.  Thanks for picking up the torch.  To Hell with the naysayers.  Advice?  OK=\r\nEDUCATE.  AGITATE.  ORGANIZE.   It's hard work and not very glamorous, but it is effective. Try to work toward goals that can easily be attained.  One step at a time.  Your successes will breed confidence.  Take it easy -- BUT TAKE IT! ","author":"Douglas","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 06:58:48","modified":"2000-08-20 07:20:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2842,"heading":"This Old Beat sez - Go To It!","article":"This 62 year old Beat who never sold out - nobody ever made a good enough offer- remembers well the Civil Rights Movement.  How the cop who lived down the street told me, concern in his voice, to stay away from the march coming up because \"We're gonna teach 'em a lesson\"  I went and watched the clubs rise and fall.  I couldn't believe it.  The Policeman is NOT your friend???  Guess not.  Later, at other occasions, I got whacked too.\r\n\tThe Anti Vietnam Movement took a looooong time to get off the ground.  I recall the frustration, the feeling of a voice crying in a wilderness to a country too complacent to care.  Even when organised and functioning well, the Movement sometimes had an air of hopeless desperation.  Will any of this make a difference.  No matter.  We soldiered - if you'll pardon the expression - on.  Nonviolence is the only safe tactic to use against a heavily armed force.  Look what happened to the South, 1861-5.  Remember the police massacre of the Symbionese Liberation Army?  Surrender?  No way.  They were not permitted to surrender.  They were shot and burned alive with no mercy.  \r\n\tDid we have any positive effect with all our marching and demonstrating?  Yes.  The President wanted to use the Bomb in Vietnam and was deterred only by the assessment that, if he did, there would be blood in the streets of cities across America the next day.  That alone is a victory in my eyes, worth all those long tedious meetings, all those late nights planning actions, all those exhilarating and scary moments when we took it to the streets.  \r\n\tThe Left discredited itsself - that manipulo-Marxoid plotting and scheming how to turn the movement into a Workers' Revolution. It tried to impose an irrelevant pattern  on the Movement.  It was sexist (remeber \"Chicks Up Front\"?) Nobody likes to be used, and when people found out that they were, the Left lost credibility.  Rightly so.    \r\n\tIt gladdens this ol' heart to see the black banner once again advancing against the police.  I remember the exhilaration I felt when I placed a black and red flag on our barricade during the Stop the Draft Week militant action.  Hard hats, steel toes, lots of bandanas, water and vinegar.  We tied up Oakland.  Sure, the busses with the draftees got through eventually, but the point has to be made again and again and again.  \r\n\tI'm not in Ellay this week.  My Social Security pittance needs augmenting, and I had a week's work - not too easy to find after you're 50.  Economic survival needs must take precedence.  I've been following the news as best I can, am concerned that the woman videographer dragged from the station might be my housemate, who is there with camera and goes where others fear to tread.  \r\n\tKeep on keeping on.  What we did Back Then didn't work, or YOU wouldn't have to be there today.  Thanks for picking up the torch.  To Hell with the naysayers.  Advice?  OK=\r\nEDUCATE.  AGITATE.  ORGANIZE.   It's hard work and not very glamorous, but it is effective. Try to work toward goals that can easily be attained.  One step at a time.  Your successes will breed confidence.  Take it easy -- BUT TAKE IT! ","author":"Douglas","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 06:59:04","modified":"2000-08-20 07:20:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2843,"heading":"This Old Beat sez - Go To It!","article":"This 62 year old Beat who never sold out - nobody ever made a good enough offer- remembers well the Civil Rights Movement.  How the cop who lived down the street told me, concern in his voice, to stay away from the march coming up because \"We're gonna teach 'em a lesson\"  I went and watched the clubs rise and fall.  I couldn't believe it.  The Policeman is NOT your friend???  Guess not.  Later, at other occasions, I got whacked too.\r\n\tThe Anti Vietnam Movement took a looooong time to get off the ground.  I recall the frustration, the feeling of a voice crying in a wilderness to a country too complacent to care.  Even when organised and functioning well, the Movement sometimes had an air of hopeless desperation.  Will any of this make a difference.  No matter.  We soldiered - if you'll pardon the expression - on.  Nonviolence is the only safe tactic to use against a heavily armed force.  Look what happened to the South, 1861-5.  Remember the police massacre of the Symbionese Liberation Army?  Surrender?  No way.  They were not permitted to surrender.  They were shot and burned alive with no mercy.  \r\n\tDid we have any positive effect with all our marching and demonstrating?  Yes.  The President wanted to use the Bomb in Vietnam and was deterred only by the assessment that, if he did, there would be blood in the streets of cities across America the next day.  That alone is a victory in my eyes, worth all those long tedious meetings, all those late nights planning actions, all those exhilarating and scary moments when we took it to the streets.  \r\n\tThe Left discredited itsself - that manipulo-Marxoid plotting and scheming how to turn the movement into a Workers' Revolution. It tried to impose an irrelevant pattern  on the Movement.  It was sexist (remeber \"Chicks Up Front\"?) Nobody likes to be used, and when people found out that they were, the Left lost credibility.  Rightly so.    \r\n\tIt gladdens this ol' heart to see the black banner once again advancing against the police.  I remember the exhilaration I felt when I placed a black and red flag on our barricade during the Stop the Draft Week militant action.  Hard hats, steel toes, lots of bandanas, water and vinegar.  We tied up Oakland.  Sure, the busses with the draftees got through eventually, but the point has to be made again and again and again.  \r\n\tI'm not in Ellay this week.  My Social Security pittance needs augmenting, and I had a week's work - not too easy to find after you're 50.  Economic survival needs must take precedence.  I've been following the news as best I can, am concerned that the woman videographer dragged from the station might be my housemate, who is there with camera and goes where others fear to tread.  \r\n\tKeep on keeping on.  What we did Back Then didn't work, or YOU wouldn't have to be there today.  Thanks for picking up the torch.  To Hell with the naysayers.  Advice?  OK=\r\nEDUCATE.  AGITATE.  ORGANIZE.   It's hard work and not very glamorous, but it is effective. Try to work toward goals that can easily be attained.  One step at a time.  Your successes will breed confidence.  Take it easy -- BUT TAKE IT! ","author":"Douglas","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 06:59:31","modified":"2000-08-20 07:20:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2844,"heading":"This Old Beat sez - Go To It!","article":"This 62 year old Beat who never sold out - nobody ever made a good enough offer- remembers well the Civil Rights Movement.  How the cop who lived down the street told me, concern in his voice, to stay away from the march coming up because \"We're gonna teach 'em a lesson\"  I went and watched the clubs rise and fall.  I couldn't believe it.  The Policeman is NOT your friend???  Guess not.  Later, at other occasions, I got whacked too.\r\n\tThe Anti Vietnam Movement took a looooong time to get off the ground.  I recall the frustration, the feeling of a voice crying in a wilderness to a country too complacent to care.  Even when organised and functioning well, the Movement sometimes had an air of hopeless desperation.  Will any of this make a difference.  No matter.  We soldiered - if you'll pardon the expression - on.  Nonviolence is the only safe tactic to use against a heavily armed force.  Look what happened to the South, 1861-5.  Remember the police massacre of the Symbionese Liberation Army?  Surrender?  No way.  They were not permitted to surrender.  They were shot and burned alive with no mercy.  \r\n\tDid we have any positive effect with all our marching and demonstrating?  Yes.  The President wanted to use the Bomb in Vietnam and was deterred only by the assessment that, if he did, there would be blood in the streets of cities across America the next day.  That alone is a victory in my eyes, worth all those long tedious meetings, all those late nights planning actions, all those exhilarating and scary moments when we took it to the streets.  \r\n\tThe Left discredited itsself - that manipulo-Marxoid plotting and scheming how to turn the movement into a Workers' Revolution. It tried to impose an irrelevant pattern  on the Movement.  It was sexist (remeber \"Chicks Up Front\"?) Nobody likes to be used, and when people found out that they were, the Left lost credibility.  Rightly so.    \r\n\tIt gladdens this ol' heart to see the black banner once again advancing against the police.  I remember the exhilaration I felt when I placed a black and red flag on our barricade during the Stop the Draft Week militant action.  Hard hats, steel toes, lots of bandanas, water and vinegar.  We tied up Oakland.  Sure, the busses with the draftees got through eventually, but the point has to be made again and again and again.  \r\n\tI'm not in Ellay this week.  My Social Security pittance needs augmenting, and I had a week's work - not too easy to find after you're 50.  Economic survival needs must take precedence.  I've been following the news as best I can, am concerned that the woman videographer dragged from the station might be my housemate, who is there with camera and goes where others fear to tread.  \r\n\tKeep on keeping on.  What we did Back Then didn't work, or YOU wouldn't have to be there today.  Thanks for picking up the torch.  To Hell with the naysayers.  Advice?  OK=\r\nEDUCATE.  AGITATE.  ORGANIZE.   It's hard work and not very glamorous, but it is effective. Try to work toward goals that can easily be attained.  One step at a time.  Your successes will breed confidence.  Take it easy -- BUT TAKE IT! ","author":"Douglas","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 07:00:00","modified":"2000-08-20 07:20:23","fileurl":""},{"id":2854,"heading":"There is something that can be done","article":"Popular belief notwithstanding, residents of Los Angeles do have an opportunity to do something the resurrection of fascism we saw this week. There is another election coming up.  It's not for president of the United States. It's for mayor of Los Angeles.  \r\n\r\nOne of the candidates is James Hahn, City Attorney of Los Angeles.  Hahn has spent much of his career defending the Los Angeles Police Department against claims of violations of civil rights.  If you believe Hahn, the LAPD has never violated anyone's civil rights.  Whatever they do, Mr. Hahn will quickly deny that it happened, and, if it did happen, he will explain, then no violation occurred.  One of the key answers to the question of why the LAPD turned into the biggest criminal gang in Los Angeles and why reform has never come despite the Christopher Commission is James Hahn. Hahn is among the biggest obstacles to LAPD reform.\r\n\r\nThe time has come for those who believe in the rule of law to rally around the proposition for the upcoming election \"Anybody but Hahn!\"  Let Hahn know that it was not just the Constitution of the United States that was torn asunder this week, it was also Jim Hahn's political career.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n","author":"li smith","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 09:40:54","modified":"2000-08-20 10:20:21","fileurl":""},{"id":2856,"heading":"re: your thing on the LAPD","article":" I am a Torontonian who was in Philadelphia for the Republican Convention protests. I have also been to many rallies in T.O. , one of which got \"out of hand\" and erupted into a riot outside the Queen's Park legislature building on June 15. (Ah, my first riot...) I got arrested for protester brutality on that day, and ever since then I have been taken on a tour of friend's and aquaintances stories of getting the shit knocked out of them by cops. I personally wasn't beaten badly. I was arrested and that in my mind is bad enough. (Details, details...) Philadelphia was worse, although I managed to avoid altercations with police. The psychological terrorism was what I experienced. I can only imagine what it was like down in L.A. My main reason for writing this is mainly to ask: Just what were you talking about in your comment about how to handle the boys in blue when they start protesting violently? I realize there was probably limited space for your comment and so you couldn't elaborate, but I am most interested in finding ways of dealing with what I see as one of the biggest threats to peace in the world today. I am only one of many kids (I am 20) who is finaly starting to see the real threats we face if we try to use the outside world as our vehicle for change instead of just changing channels on a t.v. or changing who I vote for. (No politician, even in Canada, even comes close to being honest in what they say.) I find it a fascinating study in primate behaviour. (Or perhaps Gorrila ontology. Ha! Ha! Ha!) ","author":"Ian Calvert","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 11:59:31","modified":"2000-08-20 12:20:21","fileurl":""},{"id":28653,"heading":"About this whole thing","article":"3 years later , I am reading this thinking, What in the WORLD???  I dont understand whats going on. what are you talking about ? From what i am reading there are 3 groups.  One: Cop Haters, there is no logic behind hating Cops.  Hate the individuals that abuse the power that was given to them to PROTECT THE PEOPLE.  2: Those Who pretend to know everything about protests. DUDE STOP BULLSHITTING. I'M LAUGHING AT YOU, WEBSTER, SO HARD IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY!!!    AND 3 people like me who just want to know the truth.   NOW with that done.... stop the childish name calling and grow up!      UNLESS  all of  you stop and just listen to each other nothing will be solved . all of you will just turn off your computers go to your beds and never realize that you have solved nothing. thats right, NOTHING!!  You just wasted time yelling at each other in a fashion resembling that of apes fighting to be the &quot;alpha male&quot;.   WELL good job .  AS a matter of fact this little disscusion that all of you had was POINTLESS. why do I say that,  well because i sat here for half an hour and i don't even have a jist of what the protest was about. And YOU CALL YOURSELVES adults!  HAH I'm 20 and I feel like i'm scolding  4-year-old children!\r\nOH yeah, someone asked what &quot;BDF&quot; meant.  Actually it's &quot;BFD&quot; which stands for &quot;BIG FU***NG DEAL&quot;.  well i hope someone reads this and at least contemplates what i have said.  People have no respect for one another today and thats just sad. TELL you guys what.  DO some GOOD for humanity. I Have an ISLAND that I'M planning to napalm then nuke.  \r\n\r\n OH, and you guys are ALL INVITED \r\n\r\n\r\nHUMANITY IS PITIFUL NOWADAYS,  pitiful\r\n","author":"Vain lo","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-02-12 00:46:06","modified":"2003-02-12 00:46:06","fileurl":""},{"id":2869,"heading":"veratan of lapd violence speaks out!","article":"A few days ago I logged onto excite news and made a harris poll comment that the LAPD would commit violence against the people in peaceful protest. I never saw my comment posted. And the violence happened!! This violence is nothing new to those who understand and experience LA police violence daily. What does disturb me, however, is that those who live in Los Angeles, in general,do not speak out strongly enough and long enough against police violence. A rebellion is appropriate, as is political activism. But that does not come out of LA. Therefore the demonstrators can be demeaned as outsiders, altough most LA cops are recrruited from outside the Los Angeles Area. And the violence is expected from the protestors. LA cop violence is called 'professionalism.' \r\n\r\nI wonder, however, did those demonstrating expect anything diferent? Why? The history of LA is a history of violence, racism, and repression. Those coming here to protest should expect the worse at all times. LA cops will do whatever they want with no punishment. violence is part of their culture and their life!!!!! For that reason I would not come to these protests. I know what is going to happen, and I don't need to be beaten by LA cops. What we need to do is to distribute our movements into various parts of LA, so that we can educate people of the city as to what we are all about....and also to spread the police as thin as possible in their efforts to repress us.\r\n\r\nWhat type of coordination is going on between police departments nation-wide, and the media in the media bashing of the protest movement? Everywhere the people are being attacked in the prees. Only Naomi Klein speaks for us.We should talk about this, and get on the progressive radio (KPFK-FM, Los Angeles, and in other stations) to spread our word.\r\n\r\nVeneremos!\r\n\r\nI will write and call demanding the people's release. And I will support this movement in whatever way I can.\r\n\r\n","author":"akil","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 14:07:25","modified":"2000-08-20 14:20:20","fileurl":""},{"id":2872,"heading":"No Contest","article":"   Solidarity.  This is our unification.  Find your crew and passion and action will hapen. Motion='s change and the time is coming.  Love love love and healing to all who were at the other end of night stick, tear gas, bullet, bike, foot and fist.  You are warriors.  Fight the good and peaceful fight.  Use your minds before fists.  Everything I do is for the 7th gereration from now.  My decendents children.  You are paving the way for them to have a planet to sustain and nurture them.  I honor you all, you know who you are.  My magic is with you and in you.\r\n                                in solidarity\r\n                                in respect\r\n                                in love\r\n                                in integrity\r\n                                in maga\r\n                          -strayK","author":"stray","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 14:10:35","modified":"2000-08-20 14:22:37","fileurl":""},{"id":2873,"heading":"veratan of lapd violence speaks out!","article":"A few days ago I logged onto excite news and made a harris poll comment that the LAPD would commit violence against the people in peaceful protest. I never saw my comment posted. And the violence happened!! This violence is nothing new to those who understand and experience LA police violence daily. What does disturb me, however, is that those who live in Los Angeles, in general,do not speak out strongly enough and long enough against police violence. A rebellion is appropriate, as is political activism. But that does not come out of LA. Therefore the demonstrators can be demeaned as outsiders, altough most LA cops are recrruited from outside the Los Angeles Area. And the violence is expected from the protestors. LA cop violence is called 'professionalism.' \r\n\r\nI wonder, however, did those demonstrating expect anything diferent? Why? The history of LA is a history of violence, racism, and repression. Those coming here to protest should expect the worse at all times. LA cops will do whatever they want with no punishment. violence is part of their culture and their life!!!!! For that reason I would not come to these protests. I know what is going to happen, and I don't need to be beaten by LA cops. What we need to do is to distribute our movements into various parts of LA, so that we can educate people of the city as to what we are all about....and also to spread the police as thin as possible in their efforts to repress us.\r\n\r\nWhat type of coordination is going on between police departments nation-wide, and the media in the media bashing of the protest movement? Everywhere the people are being attacked in the prees. Only Naomi Klein speaks for us.We should talk about this, and get on the progressive radio (KPFK-FM, Los Angeles, and in other stations) to spread our word.\r\n\r\nVeneremos!\r\n\r\nI will write and call demanding the people's release. And I will support this movement in whatever way I can.\r\n\r\n","author":"akil","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 14:11:26","modified":"2000-08-20 14:26:26","fileurl":""},{"id":2890,"heading":"the cops were trying to incite a riot","article":"Looks like some LAPD were upset over the general lack of head-smashing that had occured during the protest.  With the DNC over, the delegates all going home, and thus the mainstream media cameras going likewise, Thurs night was the time to attack.  They wanted their share of hurting people, before the protesters themselves started evaporating.\r\n\r\nThis was such a blatant attempt to anger that crowd, it's ridiculous.\r\n\r\nLAPD aren't just corrupt, they're animals who walk around in clothes.  They're psychotics who lust for combat against innocent civilians.  These aren't professional warriors - they're grade-school bullies who never grew up.\r\n\r\nIf they were dogs, they'd have been shot for public safety by now.\r\n\r\nTo the person who filmed all this - YOU DA MAN!\r\n\r\n-Edison\r\n","author":"Edison Carter","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 15:27:18","modified":"2000-08-20 15:51:54","fileurl":""},{"id":2913,"heading":"sucky video","article":"Why you all using Real Player for video?  Its hard to make out what's going on.  I'm on a 56k modem, 500 mhz processor and it like crap.  Why not use QuickTime.  Its a much cleaner medium.  \r\n\r\nI can't really comment on the content, 'cause the I can't really figure what's going on.  In fact, I think I got a little dizzy. ","author":"Xuey","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 17:17:53","modified":"2000-08-20 17:33:34","fileurl":""},{"id":2927,"heading":"Send in the clowns","article":"I have a few questions to all of you \"revolutionaries\" out there that want to destroy our capitalist, market driven system:\r\n\r\n1. When you destroy all of the corporations and kill all of the rich folks like they did in the French revolution, how will you buy food, produce clothing, or send E-mail? \r\n\r\n2. If communism is so great, because that is what you are truly promoting, then why do so many people risk their lives to leave Cuba, the worker's paradise? Why is North Korea starving? Any thoughts?\r\n\r\n3. If the cops are so bad, then are you willing to live without a police force?\r\n\r\n4. If corporations did not exist, how could this technology to send E-mail and take videos and post web pages exist?\r\n\r\nJust curious to your thoughts on these matters.","author":"cooldiscodan","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 18:40:33","modified":"2000-08-20 18:52:55","fileurl":""},{"id":2930,"heading":"Send in the clowns","article":"I have a few questions to all of you \"revolutionaries\" out there that want to destroy our capitalist, market driven system:\r\n\r\n1. When you destroy all of the corporations and kill all of the rich folks like they did in the French revolution, how will you buy food, produce clothing, or send E-mail? \r\n\r\n2. If communism is so great, because that is what you are truly promoting, then why do so many people risk their lives to leave Cuba, the worker's paradise? Why is North Korea starving? Any thoughts?\r\n\r\n3. If the cops are so bad, then are you willing to live without a police force?\r\n\r\n4. If corporations did not exist, how could this technology to send E-mail and take videos and post web pages exist?\r\n\r\nJust curious to your thoughts on these matters.","author":"cooldiscodan","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 19:10:35","modified":"2000-08-20 19:26:57","fileurl":""},{"id":2942,"heading":"Pinochet for president!","article":"Without corporations, how will we eat, send email etc.? The same way we did before the guilded age, when corporates lost their charter if they misbehaved. If you want to call the founding fathers commies, go ahead. \r\n\r\nWhy does Korea suck? Let's see, no worker's rights, no competition, boss has total control - Korea didn't destroy corporations, Korea IS a corporation. Why are people fleeing CUba? Gee, it couldn't be the embargo, or millions of dollars of propaganda, since after all, just as many that flee tomixed-market America go to capitalist free-market Haiti - oh wait, they don't!\r\n\r\nSo you want to talk about Cuba? Start by talking about Somolia, Ethiopia and all of the other free-market wonders that slowly and painfully murder an innocent child every single time you breathe.\r\n\r\nCorporations, CEOs, stockbrokers, and cops don't make food or program email systems. They use the fiction of \"property rights\" they inherited to rob the people that do. Then they give us little paychecks, giving back a piece of our own wealth - just to add insult to injury.\r\n\r\nSo if you want your capitalism, vote Pinichet for prez, move to Somolia, and see if that satisfies your curiousity. ","author":"Arthurt Sankey","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 20:20:36","modified":"2000-08-20 20:39:11","fileurl":""},{"id":2957,"heading":"sniper","article":"what it needs ... is a few snipers with night scopes to instil dome fear in the police <joke>","author":"sniper","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-20 22:53:58","modified":"2000-08-20 23:20:18","fileurl":""},{"id":2962,"heading":"Confused","article":"I\u2019m sorry, was that Himmler\u2019s Gestapo at work?","author":"Vickie","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 00:34:46","modified":"2013-11-10 23:35:51","fileurl":""},{"id":2967,"heading":"I can't see it very well","article":"It is hard to tell what is going on in the video with my slow modem.  But what it looks like is you guys were in a subway and you were essentially thrown out by the cops.  Then you turned around and started yelling at them for throwing you out.  The police will arrest you for yelling at them, they see it as a threat and from the looks of the video it does look that way.  I don't believe that someone should be arrested or thrown around for yelling at a police officer.  Especially when you guys were assembling peaceably.  But, the reality is that if you yell at a cop, chances are you will be arrested.  And if you don't want to be pushed around then you shouldn't yell at a police officer.\r\n\r\nI'm not endorsing what the police did, but these incidents happen every day in our streets in this country in every city.  It is not an isolated incident.  \r\n\r\nIt is great that the IMC exists and I hope more of them pop up around the world until they are in every city to report what is REALLY going on.  I was at the WTO and I have many activist friends around the country.  I'm glad we're doing what needs to be done: Organizing and solidarity around the issues of global capitalism, worker rights and environmental sustainablity.  \r\n\r\nAlso, the police fall for a protest every time.  If you are at a protest, assume that police will be there.  They always follow the protesters.  Then the protesters stop.  Then the cops line up.  Someone throws something on the ground or at the cops.  Then the cops move in with clubs, pepper spray, etc.  In Portland OR we have successfully pressured the police force into NOT TREATING PROTESTERS LIKE THAT.  Our May day protest was full of police violence.  But, as a community we have successfully stopped the police from treating our community that way, for now.  But, I'm sure they treat the other communitys the same they always have.  With violence.  It's all very predictable and if you are an activist you need to prepare for things to POSSIBLY happen.  \r\n\r\nAnd if they don't then good, we have gotten somewhere.  Keep up the pressure!!\r\n\r\nSI, SE PUEDE   SI, SE PUEDE  SI, SE UPEDE  SI, SEpuEDE!!!!!!!!","author":"DT","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 01:39:06","modified":"2000-08-21 02:13:35","fileurl":""},{"id":2969,"heading":"Police Attack @ 7th Street Metro (What I saw)","article":"I was at the 7th street metro when this shit went down. It was far scarier than anything I had experienced @ A16, in Philly, or in the days preceding it in LA. I got on the red line @ union station after waiting at least 30 minutes for the cops to allow us to ride the train. I got off @ 7th street to transfer to the blue line and exit at the Grand station, which was the closest station to the IMC, where I was going to file a story on the beautiful nonviolent events of the day (the anti sweatshop rally where people that couldn't leave their workplace hung outside the windows in solidarity with the march, the rally at the staples center, the incredibly powerful solidarity hike to twin towers...). When I got to the platform, I saw that the blue line train was already packed, but it wasn't moving. Instead, the cops had turned off the lights and the people inside were screaming. The cops formed a line, preventing people on the platform from entering the train, and preventing the people in the train from getting out. A legal observer was there taking notes, and several IMC journalists were taping the events. I started to take pictures of the cops as a new line formed behind those of us waiting on the platform. Suddenly the cops shouted something about clearing the station, which was hard to comprehend due to the noise the people in the train were making. The cops lifted their batons and started to run toward us. Screaming, we ran to the exit and nervously waited at the intersection of Fig and 7th because we couldn't cross. The cops lined up behind us and stormed at us again, pushing us out into the intersection, where cars were coming toward us. They arrested the legal observer who was taking notes in the platform. The cops continued to follow us for another block. \r\n\r\nThere were about 15 people in this group, half of which were IMC staffers. We split into two groups to report on the events: anyone who had an IMC press pass headed back to the IMC. The others went to the convergence center. I don't know what happened to them, but the cops did not leave us alone as we walked back. Our group had about 9 people in it. We tried to hail a cab, thinking that would be the safest thing to do, but the only cabbie that stopped for us, told us he could not pick anyone up at that intersection. (There was a man with delegate credentials who was also trying to hail a cab near us. We think that the cabbie was stopping for him, but the delegate said that he wouldn't stand for that kind of discrimination, and did not enter the cab.) So we continued to walk. \r\n\r\nBecause of the block on Fig after Olympic, we turned left and began walking down Flower. We were then stalked by 2 cop cars with their lights turned off. We remained calm and talked about how all those nonviolent trainings we had been to were really worth it! (This is not the end of the story, but I fear that I am not being \"consise\" and I don't want to comment on anything else at this time...)\r\n\r\nLater,\r\nZoe Mitchell\r\nIMC Print","author":"Zoe Mitchell","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 02:13:35","modified":"2000-08-21 02:39:10","fileurl":""},{"id":2977,"heading":"What Is A BDF?????","article":"what does BDF mean?????","author":"Edward J.B. Wesson Jr.","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 02:58:32","modified":"2000-08-21 03:10:36","fileurl":""},{"id":3014,"heading":"The cops sure know how to radicalize people..","article":"Call me an optimist, but the Police behaviour  will only\r\nserve to radicalise more people and ultimately help our cause.","author":"Coho","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 07:06:54","modified":"2000-08-21 07:20:14","fileurl":""},{"id":3022,"heading":"Webster, Webster, Webster!","article":"Perhaps I can't relate to the \"radical\" sixties with the Dead playing concerts in the park for free (But damn I can dream about it!!) and the Acid trips and all that.  Or the violence of the Chicago DNC or Kent State or the Madison Army Math and Science Bombing, but for Webster's edification: the 60's are over!  The movement died because so many were not committed to the changes that the generation was in favor of. As the war drifted into history they ran off and got jobs at IBM and became Yuppies and never really found the true meaning of freedom.  Well, my friend, look where we are now!  \r\n\r\nYou think you had problems to deal with?  Please.  What a little isolated government exploitation of the an Asian country and a little political corruption which was actually resolved in the people favor?  Please!  Now, if my histories wrong please lament, but I don't think the US was planing on dominating access to space so no one would harm their lasers which will be targeted at major strategic site around the wold back in the seventies.  At least not making it public knowledge.  (This is not science-fiction or some crazy dream I had last night.  It's documented and surely being solidified as I type.)  Ok, even if the US was planing world control then, and you had the Cold War and the Energy Crisis what did you do?    Well you backed down!  Left them 20-30 years to further the agenda against the environment and social consciousness.  Thank you so much.  \r\n\r\nAnd incidentally, god knows that facing a cop in the 60's was so much more violent than facing a cop today and that your problems were so much greater than ours.  \r\n\r\nIf you're not part of the solutions-which I assume you weren't then either because then you'd have never left the fight so many have continued to engage in-then get off you \"radical\" I'm a survivor soapbox and bury your head back in the sands.\r\n\r\nYuppie!\r\n\r\n\r\n(Sorry about that he just makes me angry.  Seem you agree though)","author":"Stephen Konieczka","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 08:06:20","modified":"2000-08-21 08:20:14","fileurl":""},{"id":3035,"heading":"Probably Never Wuz","article":"\"Things ain't what they used to be, and probably never was,\" Will Rogers reportedly said.\r\n\r\nIt's useful to compare different actions from different times, but it doesn't hurt either to remember that events three decades ago have been distorted along the way in our memories, or in the media. \r\n\r\nOne characteristic of events in Seattle, Washington, Philly, and LA is the statement, \"we have no leaders.\"  It can be a good idea to identify no leaders publicly, to protect people, but leadership is essential to good change.  It's a serious mistake, over the years, of people who oppose military power, oppressive government, corporate power, etc. to fall into the trap of thinking that not having leaders will somehow protect us from greed, stupidity, power-grabbing, and violence.\r\n\r\nIf we see someone like Colin Powell as a leader, then the idea of not having leadership has appeal.  Powell, however is not in the top 100 million leaders in the United States.  Most of his \"leadership\" has been in preparing to kill people in other nations.  The same can be said of Bush, Gore, Clinton, Blair and other \"leaders\" shown in the news.\r\n\r\nLeadership, though, is essential in any good effort, particularly an ongoing one.  It needs to come from everyone.  Leadership roles help get certain jobs done.  Overall leader roles, a coordinator, director, whatever, help make sure that all the important stuff is thought of and gets done.  \r\n\r\nThe groups doing good things in Philly and LA will become more effective, plateau, or flounder, based to a large extent on how much courage and insight people allow themselves on the subject of leadership.  Groups that model something like the Sierra Club, with the top leader making perhaps $200,000 annually, and the structure imitating corporations in key ways, will plateau at that level of usefulness.  Ones that talk about hierarchy, we have no leaders and such will act differently than the Sierra Club, but limit themselves to a similar level of effectiveness.\r\n\r\nThe topic of nonviolence will continue to be important -- how do you respond to police violence being the topic today in the previous comments.  In part, that's an easy question, if you remember that assault is wrong.  To me, police brutality is a funny word, and still allows them a double standard.  Assault is assault, no matter who does it.  Harrassment is a grayer area, but if someone raises a stick above your head, or hits your head with a stick, it's assault, and it always causes problems for humanity, not just for the person being assaulted.  \r\n\r\nAny successful push for justice, true justice, must be against every form of assault, because assault is injustice.  We can argue tactics all day, but any form of assault against any person, including police officers, is always wrong.  Doing something wrong is always a bad tactic.  Seven hundred assaults by police officers doesn't open up the prospect for a like response from us in any common-sense discussion.\r\n\r\nIs it assault to push an officer away, if he's ready to club you?  No, clearly not.  Then, it's a tactical consideration, and in this country pushing someone in uniform is considered a terrible thing, while killing Iraqis, pacifying babies, and drugging elementary school children are seen as good things.  So, it may be a good tactic not to push him away, and to get clubbed or beg not to get clubbed.  Is it a viable tactic, when three hundred armed officrs rush a crowd to slowly walk at those officers, hands out in front, telling them calmly to move back and obey the law?  Quite possibly.  It takes some courage in any situation to find out. Is it viable to talk to them angrily as you move forward?  Maybe.  It's ethical, and therefore worth considering. Would it work?  People in this society are so darned scared of constructive anger it's hard to say.  But it's up for discussion.\r\n\r\nIf we cannot stick to basic things we all know, then it's reasonable to assume that we should look around for some movement, groups, or individuals who will do just that.  Since there are few who do, if any, the reasonable thing to do is stick to what we know.  Never put down people because they are old or young, never assault people... We know a lot already. \r\n\r\nJim Shackelford    ","author":"Jim Shackelford","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-21 12:42:12","modified":"2000-08-21 12:56:39","fileurl":""},{"id":3047,"heading":"Never welcome \"leaders\"...","article":"Are you authoritarian socialist\/communist? There seems to be some romantic obsession with them and having leaders, even though the historical importance is not really there. \r\n\r\nLook where \"leadership\" got the Paris revolution of 68. It ended up neutralizing the power of the workers (because of the crumb begging Communist Party unions) and dissolving the power of the students (who were \"leaderless\" until authorities promoted \"revolutionary\" leaders knowing that'd it'd kill the revolution). \r\n\r\nSpanish revolution?\r\n\r\nRussian Revolution? The workers and peasents were doing fine on their own, without leaders, leading parties, etc. until some \"leaders\" decided they knew better and dictated all of their lives and killed their independence. ","author":"Anonymous","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 01:39:32","modified":"2000-08-22 02:10:57","fileurl":""},{"id":3053,"heading":"I am damn sick of cops","article":"I am damn sick of cops. In my town nothing really happens, so cops aren't dicks here. But I have heard too much. They abuse their power to kill people they don't like. you gotta wonder what kind of racist bastard would want to become a cop?","author":"Leo","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 02:10:59","modified":"2000-08-22 02:48:52","fileurl":""},{"id":3068,"heading":"educate","article":"educate yourself before you make comments like these.  if everyone knew the truth, we would have a truly powerful movement.  in solidarity.  peace.","author":"gai","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 05:17:26","modified":"2000-08-22 05:30:57","fileurl":""},{"id":3074,"heading":"FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY TO DO WHAT YOUR TOLD!!","article":"I was there but I was walking down another street to my car.. I looked over and I KNEW something was going to happen! That's right people.. WELCOME TO REAL DEMOCRACY.. Your free in america all right. Yep, free to do what your FUCKING TOLD. Did the cops do this to the people in the Staples Center? NOPE!!! Yes yes, to PROTECT AND TO SERVE, RIGHT? To protect the real criminals, and to serve batons and rubbet bullts to those who oppose. When you stand up for whats right your treated like a f*cking CRIMINAL! Im sick and tired of the police rushing inocent protestors. One of these days the protestors will have to rush the police. DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM!","author":"RAISE THE FIST","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 07:03:06","modified":"2000-08-22 07:20:03","fileurl":""},{"id":3075,"heading":"police","article":"Police are LAW ENFORCEMENT. They enforce the laws. They CONTROL the community. They control the state. They work for the LAW ENFORCEMENT. That is why they are there. To ENFORCE THE LAWS. Police are not part of a working community. PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER are part of a working community. Police work for the law. And they get away with beating people, killing people and things like this. The law protects the criminals, the multi-national corperations, people like Gore and Bush .. Clinton too. The law protects an unjust system. The law protects the oil companies, mass genocide, racism, sexists .etc.. The police enforce the law. In america they say we have the right to pleed the 5th. Obviously those rights where made for people like law enforcements, cia, fbi, government mafias.  DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM!","author":"RAISE THE FIST","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 07:12:33","modified":"2000-08-22 07:32:37","fileurl":""},{"id":3079,"heading":"one party world","article":"we all knew the democratic convention was no differeent from the republicans.\r\n\r\nWhy can't the debate move on?\r\n\r\n","author":"rob","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 09:32:53","modified":"2000-08-22 10:17:48","fileurl":""},{"id":3080,"heading":"Debates","article":"Or rather move on to the Debates!","author":"lb","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 10:17:48","modified":"2000-08-22 10:35:17","fileurl":""},{"id":3093,"heading":"Pacifists read this message!","article":"If I remember right it was none other than Martin Luther King who said \"Those who will make a peaceful revolution impossible, will make a violent revolution inevitable\"","author":"insert anonymous \"action name\" here","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 12:56:02","modified":"2000-08-22 13:17:07","fileurl":""},{"id":3107,"heading":"LAPD: Two Thumbs up for Big Brother","article":"LAPD took another page from George Orwell during the Democratic National Convention\u2019s scheduled week of \u201cpermitted\u201d protests.  The streets of downtown Los Angeles were flooded by tightly organized columns of terror troops who, admittedly, were not supposed to speak to or make eye contact with the citizenry unless shouting out a command or insult in the process of applying far too much force.  Their means of control were terror, intimidation and violence.  Their posture was one of offensive aggression.  \r\n\r\nThey not only came to fight, they had been fighting the people involved in the process all the while. Terror tactics were used in the weeks leading up to the event: People by the score who were thought to be participating in this new \u201corganic\u201d democracy were detained, questioned and cited \u2013 or arrested - for the slightest infraction or choice of fashion.  Eviction notices and surprise visits from Fire Chiefs, Building Inspectors, Police or worse \u2013 infiltrators- were a common topic of conversation among the crowd.  During the week, the LAPD extensively filmed their faces;  These multitudes who had taken time off work to exercise, ultimately,  the same constitutional right:  The first amendment\r\n\r\nCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,\r\nOr prohibiting the free exercise thereof; \r\nor abridging the freedom of speech, \r\nor of the press;\r\nOr of the right of the people peaceably to assemble,\r\nAnd to petition the Government for a redress of grievances \r\n\r\nThe LAPD, on the other hand, was on the clock - being well paid and motivated to establish the old, unwritten amendment to the constitution; the same one that is invoked when the most wealthy and powerful white men on Earth are directly threatened: \r\n\r\nYou have no right to change things.\r\nYou can disagree only in private and must remain a registered consumer.\r\nYou are only entitled to as much justice as your demographic can afford.\r\nAny deviation from these parameters will be swiftly punished \r\nand controlled with any means available \r\n\r\nNo surprises.  No love lost.  Anyone with any delusions about the nature of the beast got schooled quickly this week.  These are the facts:  The four pillars upon which this house, this nation, were built are GREED, GENOCIDE, SLAVERY, and LIES.  \r\n\r\nThe Democrats and Republicans will spend this year trying to do a magic show for the population in which they demonstrate how the house can be built upon; made greater, taller and stronger.  But the facts have been presented.  The beast has shown it\u2019s teeth.  And the LAPD has shown us all, once again, that upon this foundation nothing more can be built \u2013 the four corroded pillars keep on crumbling.  And when the people stood united in heart, spirit and song, they shook those pillars even more, putting them to the stress test.  When the bullets started flying they failed the test.   \r\n\r\nDoes this mean that the house is about to collapse?  Of course not.  After all, WAR IS PEACE.  FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.  IGNORANCE IS STREGNTH.  \r\n\r\nThank you all for coming.  The show is over.  Move along.  Nothing more to see here folks.\r\n\r\njonesoverandout","author":"Guillermo","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 15:26:53","modified":"2013-11-10 23:36:35","fileurl":""},{"id":3117,"heading":"Alien Mind Control","article":"Jones has a point.  The cops were terrified by their superiors.  The brass like to psych up their men by demonizing the adversary and spreading wild rumors all over the city.  These guys were in a war.  They saw every single protester as an anarchist from Oregon trained in street tactics and armed with gasoline bombs.  They'd had months of \"unusual occurrence\" training. If their imaginary enemy didn't come, well, they'd just play with themselves.  If someone wandered into their Operating Area, as they liked to call it, and tried to do what the Constitution allows, well, welcome to my nightmare.  \r\n\r\nBut the cops were pathetic.  Their barked orders, their double-timing, their code 3 donut runs, and all that \"Red squad to blue one, execute, execute hut-hut,\" shit sounded like a bunch of US Marine boots trying to be real soldiers.\r\n\r\nThis is not good police work.  Good police read the streets.  Good police bop the people that need bopping, if any, and let the skinny nonviolent kids with drums and puppets exercise their right to protest.  The media will keep cheering on the cops, because in L.A. this is what media do, but the people know way better.  The LAPD leadership is already in deep doo-doo with the Feds and this time there's going to be a real change in L.A. and the glass-house Kommando Korps are through.\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n","author":"Hugh Stegman","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 17:01:33","modified":"2000-08-22 17:19:59","fileurl":""},{"id":3138,"heading":"LAPD GOOD AT PROVOKING RIOTS, BUT ...","article":"LAPD are very good at provoking riots, but if they are outnumbered, they will run away. This is what happened in South Central LA a few years LAPD pulled over a black motorist and did the usual, had driver get out of the car, foot on his neck as usual, and the locals weren't having any of it. The riot started, and the LAPD ran like hell. If you wanted a cop to protect you or your business or your house from the rioters, forget it. They weren't going to come anywhere close to where they might be in danger. They ran away, leaving the citizens to fend for themselves. They were up against an equal force which was armed and willing to fight back. There was a stampede of people to gun stores, where people found out about the new ten-day waiting period... Liberals from Hollywood begged people like Charlton Heston for guns to protect themselves - and got no guns.\r\n\r\nLAPD are bullies, but when met by force, turn into cowards - but isn't that always the case? LAPD are rogue cops, and they are a disgrace to the profession. LAPD should be disbanded.","author":"anonymous","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 19:06:32","modified":"2000-08-22 19:19:44","fileurl":""},{"id":3145,"heading":"radical glamor","article":"Wealth and money really are not the same thing.  Money is a terribly costly symbol when taxes, banks, accounting and people's attitudes like what it really costs to protect oneself from people who will die or kill over paper with green ink on it.  We invented that symbol and can disinvent it! Hierarchy is the encrustation of desensitized bodies that cluster around what was once a creative thought.  Corporations go public when the only thing left to sell is what was once someone's good name.  Radical work one loves is as NOW as life gets. Grow your food, make your shoes, build an airplane. Don't expect god or govt. to pick up after you.  Practice justice--just is real.  The payoff is wealth without the glamor crap which is so polluting.","author":"ruth","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 19:59:50","modified":"2000-08-22 20:16:24","fileurl":""},{"id":3147,"heading":"radical glamor","article":"Wealth and money really are not the same thing.  Money is a terribly costly symbol when taxes, banks, accounting and people's attitudes like what it really costs to protect oneself from people who will die or kill over paper with green ink on it.  We invented that symbol and can disinvent it! Hierarchy is the encrustation of desensitized bodies that cluster around what was once a creative thought.  Corporations go public when the only thing left to sell is what was once someone's good name.  Radical work one loves is as NOW as life gets. Grow your food, make your shoes, build an airplane. Don't expect god or govt. to pick up after you.  Practice justice--just is real.  The payoff is wealth without the glamor crap which is so polluting.","author":"ruth","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 20:16:24","modified":"2000-08-22 20:54:51","fileurl":""},{"id":3151,"heading":"yea the video BLOWS","article":"Yea this video does SUCK! What the hell are you indymedia people thinking?  I have a k6-200 with 200 megs of ram a 56k, etc and I can barely see it. Please use something else, and allow us to download it to our pc instead of streaming it, thanks!\r\n\r\nAnd Webster, the biggest problem I have with your posts is the condescending attitude that \"you will never make a difference,\" \"you are ineffective,\" etc.  I see your tactic and I think you mean well but when you talk to people like they're idiots all you will get is negativity.  Cmon people! The only reason we haven't won yet is that we are constantly fighting and bickering between ourselves and the thousands of ridiculously seperatist ideaologies... Let's try some tolerance and realize who the common enemy is.  I never figured out why so many activists spend all their time arguing about what we're gonna replace the system with instead of spending that energy trying to topple it.  Instead of bashing everybody why not try some positive feedback and education...\r\n\r\nLove&Light","author":"John Oublic","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 21:21:58","modified":"2000-08-22 21:42:18","fileurl":""},{"id":3152,"heading":"make that a k6-2 500mhz","article":"make that a k6-2 500mhz, not a \"k6-200\"","author":"John Public","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-22 21:28:33","modified":"2000-08-22 21:42:18","fileurl":""},{"id":3166,"heading":"Cops Can't Count","article":" A few points of note:\r\n\r\n  1) The police say that everyone has tewo minutes to clear the station and then they march after approx 7 seconds, batons drawn and prodding\/smashing. Can't the cops count? they were 113 seconds off, but I guess they don't want to waste valuable smashing time, to quote another openly bumbling cop.\r\n  2) Reason for clearing station never given. Were there violent acts committed (before the cops)? Nope. Did the cops attempt any measures besides violence? No.\r\n  3) Why did they want to clear the station? Is waiting for a train a crime in LA? Apparently the Cops think so. It's not like there was anything unusual going on, except for the 50 cops per square inch.\r\n  4) On the 14th at the DNC, a concert was shutdown without notice by the police and their DNC advisers, without informing the crowd, who were then given 20 minutes to clear out, police again advanced with (\"non-lethal\") weapons drawn. See a pattern?\r\n\r\n  Is freedom of circulation a crime in LA? Or only when it interferes with Al Gore's Love-in for the powerful? If the police continue their brazen assaults, someone, cop or protester will be killed. That's not a threat, it's a fact. The situatiuon hasn't reached that particular flashpoint yet, but if illegal police behaviour continues, all bets are off. \r\n","author":"Robb","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-23 01:49:00","modified":"2000-08-23 02:10:02","fileurl":""},{"id":3192,"heading":"LAPD was correct to do this","article":"Let's not get carried away with \"police states\" and all the other rhetoric. The LAPD was responding to the actions of a small number, but agitating few protesters who tried to get in their faces and threw bottles full of urine at them. What would you do? Those of you who have never sen what other countries do to supress movements such as these have no idea what you are even angry about.\r\nThe LAPD was not overly brutal, and being told to get out of a train station for a few minutes does not constitute a state of police brutality. \r\n\r\nFor people who claim to be freedom fighteres, a lot of you sure act like babies.  And just so you know, I support your right to assemble, voice your opinions, and make your statements.","author":"Jason","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-23 14:39:13","modified":"2000-08-23 23:46:07","fileurl":""},{"id":3199,"heading":"Huh?","article":"Wtf are you talking about? None of those people in that subway were throwing urine or pulling guns on the cops. The cops just went buck-wild with no provocation. ","author":"Anonymous","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-23 16:42:39","modified":"2000-08-23 17:00:04","fileurl":""},{"id":3230,"heading":"welcome to the police state","article":"well this has been the norm for years...whats the big news... welcome to the new world order.\r\n look at the back of the one dollar bill \r\n  translates ??? new world order......announcing the birth of the one world order\r\n  the courts are corrupt, the cops  are just brain washed into what they do...{forgive them for they know not what they do}  all we as people of the land can do is find unity and peace together.... t a f k a t l a s","author":"danny","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-23 21:45:03","modified":"2000-08-23 22:09:57","fileurl":""},{"id":3272,"heading":"i know, i was there","article":"i mean RIGHT THERE! i'm actually in the video briefly (for most of the video i'm just off to the left of the camera's view). i can tell you, first hand, that it was madness. after accidentally exiting at the wrong stop, my friends and i returned to the metro to find it being held up by the police. they had detained a protester for pulling the emergency stop. the protester claimed that he was only trying to hold the door open for his brother, and i had no reason to doubt him, seeing as how the metro was being used for the benefit of the protesters that night. the protester was extremely pissed-off, and we urged him to calm down. otherwise, the cops had him for incitement and could legally beat the shit out of him. but hey, why beat the shit out of one guy when you can beat the shit out of an entire group of rabble-rousers? i guess the backup squad arrived or something, because before i knew it the police had formed a line and were ordering us to leave. we explained to them that we had a legal right to be there. we were committing no crimes. a tall black officer, who seemed to be in charge, gave us a two minute warning, which only confused us when they full-on charged us 10 seconds later. i got pushed around a lot and night-sticked full force in the center of my spine. i had my hands up in the air the entire time. my friend, however, fared far worse. the police had actually drawn blood and given him a fat bruise right below his kidney. the most he had done to deserve such a beating was try to turn around as they shuffled us out of the metro. even my other friend, an intimidating 5'3\" tall female, had taken a hit. when it was all over, i was amazed at how the group hadn't even attempted to defend themselves as they were victimized by the police. their words will live with me for the rest of my life:\r\n\r\nTHIS IS WHAT A POLICE STATE LOOKS LIKE!\r\nTHIS IS WHAT A POLICE STATE LOOKS LIKE!","author":"Ryan Boehning","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-24 07:59:07","modified":"2000-08-24 08:18:51","fileurl":""},{"id":3274,"heading":"hey","article":"Hey, I know those folks.","author":"Joe Kinzel","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-24 08:34:27","modified":"2000-08-24 09:06:47","fileurl":""},{"id":3301,"heading":"flashback of a nightnmare","article":"watching this video now at the age of 24, i suddenly felt the same confused emotions from 8 years ago when i watched\r\non TV trucker Reginald Denning being dehumanized....\r\nalthough violence and misfortune is broadcast all day every day, i don't seem to be affected by it as much as the two previous experiences which i've mentioned...\r\ni'm 24, and i still was made feel as scared as a young child\r\nwhom witnesed the negativity of chaos in 1992.\r\ni fucking live here too, and i can't honestly say i am proud\r\n","author":"rezen","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-24 19:07:41","modified":"2000-08-24 19:40:54","fileurl":""},{"id":3304,"heading":"re: Intense by ChuckO","article":"ChuckO, negotiation is never shameful if you stand by your principles. Often it doesn't work and civil disobedience is necessary. But don't demonize your opponents: it will corrode both you and the ideals for which you are fighting.","author":"dAVE","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-24 20:03:58","modified":"2000-08-24 20:25:52","fileurl":""},{"id":3309,"heading":"Negotiating vs. Informing","article":"Negotiating only validates their neccessary existence. \r\n\r\nI think they're becoming increasingly aware of the fact they aren't being used to catch criminals, but rather to protect the rulers, the rich, their property, and to make sure order (as is) remains as fluid as possible. An undercover cop pretty much said this exactly in a semi-journal of his experiences in LA. \r\n\r\nIf we \"negotiate\" it comes off as if the cops are there for good reason and it's US who is causing these problems. If we just talked to them, everything would be fine. And when negotiations fail, whose side do you think the media will take? \"The protesters tried to reach a deal with the police but the police didn't like their offer.\"\r\n\r\nOn the other hand, distributing police-focused literature to them when they're not obeying commenders to maintain order and let out aggression on peaceful people. I actually think this is quite important, even though as soon as their bosses find out about it, they'll try to spin it as evil Communist scum from Mars trying to brainwash them so they can rule the world and make the world miserable. \"The same Commies that write this crap are the same ones who worship that cop-killer Mumia!!! You know what that means? They want to kill you too!\" \r\n\r\nBut it's worth the effort most definitely. They already demonize protesters before every major protest to get the cops all filled up with hate. ","author":"Anonymous","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-24 21:14:54","modified":"2000-08-24 21:39:45","fileurl":""},{"id":3330,"heading":"questions to a clown","article":"I have some questions for cool disco dan.\r\n\r\n1) Where did you get the message that this movement is about destroying all the corporations and killing all the rich folks? Did I miss the puppet procession depicting the French revolution? Are the the French really naked, starving and unable to communicate? I like French food.\r\n\r\n2) How is it that you're able to jump from the message  \"human need over corporate greed\" to one of \"truly promoting\" Communism? Did I miss the Karl Marx puppet? I once risked my life trying to leave Cuba with a cigar. Do you like cigars? I like kimchi. \r\n\r\n3) There was a punk band in the early eighties with a song called \"Eat the Cops\" I think the chorus went \"I like mine sliced thick and lean\" or something like that, I can't remember, I'm getting hungry.\r\n\r\n4) Can you say corporate welfare? If I'm not mistaken the internet was developed in the PUBLIC sector, then later GIVEN to coporate interests. That's what this movement is ultimately about-the selling off of our democratic political system to the highest bidder who then manipulates policy to meet its own interests while trouncing human rights, labor rights and the environment. \r\n\r\nJust curious, have you thought about any of this or has the corporate media purchased your mind and sold you an opinion?","author":"jones","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-25 06:32:12","modified":"2000-08-25 07:08:12","fileurl":""},{"id":3513,"heading":"Police Riot in the Subway","article":"2800.  (a) It is unlawful to willfully fail or refuse to comply with\r\nany lawful order, signal, or direction of any peace officer, as\r\ndefined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of\r\nPart 2 of the Penal Code, when that peace officer is in uniform and\r\nis performing duties under any of the provisions of this code, or to\r\nrefuse to submit to any lawful inspection under this code.\r\n   (b) Except as authorized under Section 24004, it is unlawful to\r\nfail or refuse to comply with any lawful out-of-service order issued\r\nby any peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with\r\nSection 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the Penal Code, when that peace\r\nofficer is in uniform and is performing duties under any provision of\r\nthis code and the out-of-service order complies with Sections 395.13\r\nand 396.9 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations. \r\n\r\n   Look it up I\u2019m not sure, but I think that means that when an Officer tells you to do something you do it immediately. The Officer told the lady to leave three times. You don\u2019t get to ask questions. In the video the cop told the lady to leave. She did not leave, she kept asking. \r\n\r\nWarrior.","author":"Warrior","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-08-30 06:35:51","modified":"2013-11-10 23:36:36","fileurl":""},{"id":37909,"heading":"Bump","article":"This should be required reading.","author":"MadMaxim","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-03-22 00:23:49","modified":"2003-03-22 00:23:49","fileurl":""},{"id":37932,"heading":"Payback is a bitch","article":"You better hope I dont catch you tying up traffic, or even looking at me funny you fucking commies.","author":"Bent Nose WIlly","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-03-22 00:45:27","modified":"2003-03-22 00:45:27","fileurl":""},{"id":37937,"heading":"oops","article":"oopsy daisy you just lost a bunch more reasonable folk to the anti-war crowd.","author":"rtv","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-03-22 00:50:54","modified":"2003-03-22 00:50:54","fileurl":""},{"id":37949,"heading":"This thread illustrates the &quot;movements&quot; chaos and failure","article":"Look at the dates - and the debis.\r\n\r\nThis &quot;movement&quot;, has been going on for more than 3 years.  \r\n\r\nAnd what does it have to show for itself?\r\n\r\nNadda.","author":"MadMaxim","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-03-22 01:01:59","modified":"2003-03-22 01:01:59","fileurl":""},{"id":37952,"heading":"well....","article":"well, for starters.... movements of resistance to corporate tyranny and US military hegemony are vast, worldwide, complex, interrelated, decentralized, and much bigger than ever before. ","author":"08yt","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-03-22 01:06:37","modified":"2003-03-22 01:06:37","fileurl":""},{"id":3861,"heading":"Webester, how could you...","article":"possibly ask these people for the identity of their leaders? Assuming they have any, of course. I'm 60 and was there at the DNC in Chicago, remember when \"The whole world is watching!\", likewise the spontaneous uprising of practically every University in the US when the US begin bombing Cambodia. I have taken numerous hits from nightsticks and cops, not just in demonstrations, but from just being young. If the cops see that you feel \"free\" when you are young they will beat you into submission. If there were a \"leader\" in this revolution I would highly suggest he not identify himself. As Webster surly knows, all the leaders of the movement in the sixtys, MLK, etc. are dead, by whatever means. Shame on you Webster, go back and suck up to your TV. You might wakeup also to the fact that we live in a totalitarian society, but you are probability dug into like an Alabama tick. \r\n\r\nTake our Nation back from the Corporations, Greed, and Corrupt Politicans, etc.  ","author":"Jefferson","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-09-17 00:01:36","modified":"2000-09-17 01:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":4418,"heading":"So............","article":"Everyone hates cops until you need one, then you bitch about them not being around.  Next time you need one, call Jessie Jackson.","author":"KDR","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-11-08 19:31:12","modified":"2000-11-08 20:00:00","fileurl":""},{"id":4930,"heading":"I Agree with Webster---GROW UP\"","article":"My brother lives in Seattle and he said the only thing that was achieved during the WTO was nothing about saving any form of wildlife or any other worthwhile point, the only thing that will be remembered were pictures of a lot children screaming at policemen-a very stupid and embarresing moment in the life of Seattle, and you know, the USA is so leanant a society that the kids that vandalized other people's property did not even have to pay for the damage they commited.","author":"Terence","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2000-12-21 00:17:25","modified":"2000-12-21 01:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":5067,"heading":"Another who doesn't know anything","article":"People in this country don't have a clue!  They think that since this is America, they can do what they want when they want.  Well folks, its time to wake up and smell the coffee.  If it weren't for the laws of this land and the police officers who enforce those laws, this country would not be worth living in.  I travel the world and see how other countries handle such protests.  Go to one of those countries and try what I saw on that video clip.  You would be bloodied and in the hospital.\r\n\r\nPeople in this country don't realize what they have.  The younger generation is all about me, me, me!  It doesn't matter if there a laws prohibiting the activity or an ordinance that requires a permit to hold a peaceful demonstration.  Don't get me wrong, I believe every American has the right to voice their opinion and to hold a demonstration if they so desire.  But MY GOD people! Do it within the restraints of the law.  \r\n\r\nIf you were doing nothing wrong and you had the proper permits as required, the problem you had with those officers would have never happened.  I was a cop for 13 years.  And never once did I go and harass a person or persons who were obeying and abiding by the law.\r\n\r\nBelieve me, we have better and more important things to do.  As with any police action that's caught on video, it never shows what was going on prior to the police arriving and what caused them to respond to the area in the first place.  But when the video airs, everybody hates the police.\r\n\r\nAs I've always said, \"let us all take a two week vaction all at once, and before the first week is up, americans, including you, would be begging us to come back to work!\"\r\n\r\nHave a nice day","author":"does it really matter","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-01-09 23:07:16","modified":"2001-01-10 00:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":5323,"heading":"bo","article":"no meat eaters are allowed in my revolution","author":"boo","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-01-29 04:40:36","modified":"2001-01-29 05:00:00","fileurl":""},{"id":5617,"heading":"if your a pig, just kill yourself","article":"The only good cop is a dead cop. A fascist is a fascist, and no fascist deserves to live.\r\n","author":"Jesus Christ","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-03-06 20:59:26","modified":"2001-03-06 22:00:05","fileurl":""},{"id":6490,"heading":"Morons","article":"You people are a bunch of morons.  The police always gives adequite time to remove yourselves frome the premises that you are on.  Obviously, since you morons have ADD and other learning disabilities you think that it is the police's fault.","author":"Jason","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-04 23:35:21","modified":"2001-05-05 00:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":6495,"heading":"I am about to be a cop?","article":"Disclaimer: I am NOT saying these police had a right to break up a crowd. However, I will give an example of how what they did was totally ok in my book, with the following condition: If ONE thing happens from a crowd, say, a bottle is thrown at the police, the crowd becomes dangerous because it is providing cover an anonymity to the bottle thrower. Therefore, the crowd has to be treated a an individual threat. Also, you as a member of that crowd should WANT to help disperse a crowd that is creating cover for the bottle thrower. It is unfortunate that the police can't explain this in detail to the crowd.  They need to intimidate the crowd, because that is the quickest, most reliable way of dispersing a crowd. They need to put 'crowd' logic and crowd psychology in the public so YOU, the innocent bystander, can understand how you are unwittingly protecting a violent situation. The cops KNOW you are peaceful, and not causing a problem.. however, you are part of a crowd that IS dangerous because of one or two members in it. Human psychology is that they HAVE to intimidate you to get you to leave, and as you see, it worked.. out of 70 or so people, maybe 2 got arrested for not leaving. By the way, they were more than likely let go with a warning probably, if they did not resist and did not mouth off to the police, and even then, probably just a ticket.\r\n\r\nAnyway, in this case, I felt very angry at the police for their behavior. But, if even one person had thrown something at the police, then they HAD to disperse the crowd. And you, a member of that crowd, should want to help them disperse it.. Otherwise, you are saying your right to convene is more important than the safety of the officers. You could argue that they shouldn't be there to start with, and I agree in most cases, but many times, cops are necessary to be there when large groups are gathering, or else it gets out of control which has been proven  with video cameras time after time after time... So their presence is necessary many times, and if they ever are threatened by the 'cover' of a crowd, they have to disperse it. You should help them. Your right stops when it violates someone else's. \r\n","author":"Joe","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-05 17:40:50","modified":"2001-05-05 18:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":6496,"heading":"Armed Resistance","article":"I really hope that you fucking idiots attempt armed resistance.  Watching all of you get butchered would make for some excellent TV.","author":"PD","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-05 19:01:32","modified":"2001-05-05 20:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":6644,"heading":"Don't be dumb","article":"Don't be dumb.  Think of it this way.  Because of all of the other large demonstrations that have become riots what else does the police have to think when a mass assembles.  They have to be on their feet.  Their job is public safety.  Riots always start off peaceful.  How would you feel if you were sitting at home and a group of \"peaceful demonstrators\" turned riotous attacked you or your property.  The only way for them to prevent a riot is to be over cautious, which shouldn't make for a violation of rights, but protestors should be extra aware and even sympathetic to the position we put police in.  And as far as a revolution is concerned: You live in the greatest imperfect nation there is.  If you feel the need to lash out violently at the very people who are in charge of protecting your rights, then I say you deserve the mace.  If there is such a problem with police then I suggest you become one.  It is a free country and you have just as much as an opportunity to become a police officer as anyone else.  The only way is peace.  ","author":"Matt","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-09 20:33:08","modified":"2001-05-09 20:47:38","fileurl":""},{"id":66828,"heading":"but...","article":"what have they really accomplished? corporate tyranny and abuse of power are more prominent now than ever, despite much action being taking by the common people.","author":"Ryan","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-06-25 13:34:21","modified":"2003-06-25 13:34:21","fileurl":""},{"id":6843,"heading":"fucking pigs","article":"Fucking pigs.... that was not 2 minutes.... Get some lives.We need to break their noses!","author":"-------------","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-18 16:10:25","modified":"2001-05-18 17:00:03","fileurl":""},{"id":6900,"heading":"Jesus Fucking Christ","article":"Ever think about the fact that over-emotional, irrational, looking-for-a-cause, restless people that collect in a situation like that can cause slightly more severe situations - like rioting, car fires, vadalism, etc? These people are absoultely no different than gapers on the freeway each and every time there is an accident. Instead of driving on, they all slow down and cause massive traffic congestion. WTF don't people mind their own business, do what they should be doing, and not always force the issue. Reminds me a of a bunch of cows lined up along a fence - ain't got nothing better to do, so they may as well hang around and get carried away.","author":"The Rational Minority","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-21 02:01:49","modified":"2001-05-21 03:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":6903,"heading":"police in la","article":"LAPD gave 2\/3 min. to,leave the area I did not see anything the lapd did except there jjjjjjjjjjjjjjOB get a live folks","author":"paul","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-21 17:24:08","modified":"2001-05-21 18:00:02","fileurl":""},{"id":6967,"heading":"Whiners still?","article":"First off you liberal whiners lost every right you ever had to complain about the LAPD when you demanded afirmative action. When LAPD lowered the standards to accomidate those too stupid to qualify, the result was the hiring of a lower quality of officer.\r\n\r\nNow you want to whine some more that the dept is screwed up?, HAHAHA!!!! YOU FOOLS GOT WHAT YOU WANTED, a more 'diverse' dept that's also polluted by morons who 15 years ago could never pass the screening process.\r\n\r\nBut I understand whiners need to whine otherwise they don't feel useful.\r\n\r\nYou made your bed now lie in it you fucks!!\r\n\r\n","author":"Officer Kickass","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-05-24 23:08:21","modified":"2001-05-25 00:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":78668,"heading":"vanjoe","article":"  \r\n    I think we need to educate the public on what is really going on. The avarage person is oblivious and to busy just trying to survive in todays economy just to make ends meet. The crimes ,scandals and murder that is committed by this administration all in the name of capitolism will never receive the light of day if we don't start finding innovative ways of getting our message across. One of my Ideas is to raise money for a 2 minute commercial on national televiosion.","author":"Nunez","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-08-24 11:40:54","modified":"2003-08-24 11:40:54","fileurl":""},{"id":86032,"heading":"It  took me this long to find it in print","article":"I can't see the video in  question, but I was on the  subway  returning from the  rally when an altercation occured. I can't remember what day it   was,  but when one young man  was keeping the  train from  going, one of the LAPD  got mad and threw him against a  wall.  Then this trainload of protestors (that had just been  talking about how  great the police  had been that day), did  every thing in their power to keep the  train from moving so we could  witness.  Some yelled &quot;Police Brutality&quot; and one young woman  was  dragged across the subway, possibly by her hair, because she refused to  put her camcorder  away.\r\n\r\n We were held there for  what  felt like a half hour. The police wouldn't let us get off and the peanut  gallery  kept holding open the doors so the  train couldn't go. I  was  scared, because I didn't know  what  was going to happen.  The police took pictures and then  eventually ordered us off the  train. We were lucky to be toward the  front,  those that didn't make it out in  time  were gassed.  Those that were gassed came out  crying....I'll never forget what they sounded like. That's pure torture, plain and  simple.","author":"dreammuffin","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2003-10-03 00:12:03","modified":"2003-10-03 00:12:03","fileurl":""},{"id":9046,"heading":"Lets use some common sense","article":"Who ever this may concern,\r\nid like to make this as simple and polite as possible.lets look at this with some common sense,i have just watched the rm file and i was not present nor am i awere of what took place before,just to let you know of the simplicity of the situation.lets start with the beginng,as i take it there was a gathering or a protest of some sort and some how it got down to the subway now im am curious how you can justify disrupting public transit,anywho so the cops showed up,they said and i quote \"you have 2min to leave\" unquote.you see my first reaction would be to leave but for some reason from what i take is that only 10% of them left as you can see later on in the clip where the filmer pans towards the top of the stairs,so lets put it this way i am on your lawn or if you dislike that example the sidewalk out side your house and me and a couple of friends are standing there maybe getting a little roudy maybe we spread out on the street,the police arrive naturaly and they ask me to leave,i give them a hard time and don't move what does the officer do...hmmm he uses force after maybe talking to me for about 3min or so,he uses force to stop the disruption and clear me and my friends off the street and sidewalk so by standers can walk by or drive by with out hassle or harm(to the extreme).so these people were warned and then because of the size of the group force was use quickly and lets say fercely,so i ask you what do you expect them to do have a little chat or argument with a rally of people,they don't have time for that nor will it do any good to your cause,so anyway the people just kinda hang around til the cops used force and then the whole story changes oh no we are victims of lapd brutality oh poor me,the whole thing changes now that they took action after they were warned.so they get out of the subway and just mass around the outside the enterence,and every thing is ok the police are just standing around at which point the crowd was warned agian to move,although no one did,but no action was taken till another warning \"get away from the police car\" and then some one was arrested because she did not lisen to the warning and therefore the nesscary action was taken,so from what i take once again and seemed like the original plan also the police move the people back again,no harm was done really i did'nt see anyone poked with a baton like the stairway clip,and we have people on phones and people crying,you see some one on that phone should have told the man that gee i wonder what happends if you don't listen to a warning,just like mom told you not to touch the hot stove and you did and got pissed at either the stove or mom because you did a stupid thing you,lets say beat the dog with a stick and you got bit and now you are whinning,I lived in sanfronando valley for a year i found that LAPD was quite nice and very reasponsive if i ever had a problem,currently i am in japan,but i grew up in cananda nova scotia,you know we have mounties,and you know what a friend who is a mounty said they would have done the same thing,But i understand that some people have issues with the government,etc.i suggest you protest in a public park or such or in a place visable to help your cause but some where you will not piss the rest of the public off,or just do what i do when i have a problem,sit down and write a letter to a news paper or what not,because i bet that protest got them nowhere well on the news,and thats alot of bullshit to go throught just to be on the news in that sense,im with LAPD when he said \"you should be ashamed of your selfs\".And i invite feed back to this comments of complaints,although i ask you don't use a paragraph of bad lanuage or a sentace that says \"im some dumb asshole\" or such because that just shows how old you are (hmmm about 11 no no 12) and it shows how smart you are,then that tells me what kinda work you do too.i hope you can really think about this,it really makes no sense to villanate the police and to the extreme call them nazi's which i dispise because you should study history\/politics more and use the term lightly,they were doing a job,although i did hear some unproffessional lanuage that could have been from an officer every thing they did was \"just\" and was called for.\r\n\r\n                             Sincerly\r\n                           -Max Steven Jenins\r\n                      (president of Oblivion New Media)","author":"Max jenkins","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-08-01 03:11:38","modified":"2001-08-01 04:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":9047,"heading":"A NEW PLACE TO PROTEST(forgot to add this)","article":"I say maybe you should protest in italy,heh,for those of you who don't know,they use bretta 93r's which can have 3 round brusts and almost full auto,so what its a gun,well this nice little crome plated wooden slided griped 9mm pistol is pointed in to thus protesting of mass of people and fired,don't belive,well just go look at the current events,by the way what a nice pistol that is(if its being used non-violently like at a gun club although i could imagne how effective it is going in to your leg or what not)\r\n","author":"MJ","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-08-01 03:23:32","modified":"2001-08-01 04:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":9048,"heading":"Yea! i argee with max jenkins","article":"foolishness,\r\n\"MILITANT DEFENSE IS OUR ONLY CHOICE NOW\" is a title from an article,so what are you going to fight the police hmmm be a big survivalist and then we can call you a terroist because thats what it comes down to,you people that bitch and complain about the police in that way sound like small childern who did'nt get there own way.so you blame the media,but you don't write in to editorials or newspapers you just sit on this forum were you have the little power you have at all it life it self,\"but we aren't going to be scared off by the LAPD - FBI - CIA\"-\"idealistic committed youth\",and this gentelmen here is doing more to hurt society the help it,so you wonte be scared off by thess law enforcement agentcey which were set up to deal with people like the person quoted above but more extreme,what do you people want anarcy.its like where they guy above is from canada but not extreme at all they keep voting for the liberals(a party in canada) and then all for that term the libreals are in they kick them selfs in the ass and wonder why they voted for them in the first place and do it all over again.another man said \"\r\nthe only answer: \r\narmed resistance\" ,look a terrorist,i look forward to seeing him beaten down or shot by SWAT or SEAL TEAM 6,i hope he has fun felling 9mm bullets from an mp5 go threw his body. you call your states \"fascist\" but i don't belive you know what that means,although the USA has militerized it self,it acts as kinda like the worlds police man,thats the only thing \"Fascist\" about it.\"video game violence in which their peers are the corporate stooges & they happily work with the established corporations especially financial & media\" and this guy goes on about video game violence,hmmm well if you have childeren and don't let them play these games,you are shelerting them from the world and if you the parent are not educating your childern of whats right and wrong you sir are the worest possible thing in the world,you are not being a parent,and that is the worest thing,by doing so he could take many wrong paths you don't want him to,so don't blame your shit on video game violence because it all starts at home.and slashing out at the media,so do something about it rather then cause trouble out on the streets you remind me of some 13 year old kid that will go fuck around on some ones house to get a rush or something,and at corporations yes i belive companys like microsoft are big bad companies,but were would we be with out them also.Look at you all you are arguing over 6 mins of video which i remind you is shot in the perspective of the rioters how about a police one hmmm,i bet it would be different or what happend before to cause the police to come,you are hurting things with your anarchist ideas more then what you blaming it on.who needs a nuclear fallout we have you extremists,so too be terrorists by the sounds of it,i bet you all support drug legalization also.junkies go get a job and contribute to society rather then complain ,go make a difference rather then bitching about it,i know for one this is the frist and last time i write in a forum,maybe its time to take off the blinders you narrow minded fools and come out of your hole.\r\n \r\n","author":"guy","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-08-01 04:02:20","modified":"2001-08-01 05:00:01","fileurl":""},{"id":9135,"heading":"Yet another supporter of Matt Jenkins","article":"I agree with Matt Jenkins too.\r\nLook at it from the police officers point of view, you have about 20 officers vs. >100 protestors (thats the most I saw in the footage although I bet there are many more).  Imagine the Chaos that would ensue if just one of those protestors was carring a weapon and decided to use it, of even pull it out for all to see.  The police ironically enough are the ones in danger here, they are greatly outnumbered and are reluctant to use lethal force even in self defense, one nut with a gun could kill an officer before the rest have a chance to react.\r\n\r\nThe people that are being restrained are the ones disobeying the police, ex. that woman who does not move away from the car when asked.  Yet look how many peole were not harmed, when leaving the subway most people left with their hands in the air and were not touched, the ones that were pushed with a baton weren't pushed enough to even loose their balance, hardly police brutality.  And after they are outside on young man WALKS UP TO THE POLICE!!  He shows them his subway pass they dont let him in so he quickly exits the area, NO HARM done to him!\r\n\r\nThats the way people should handle the situation, walk away quickly. Did you see anybody being chased by the police outside?  The police formed a perimiter and kept people out of it.  If you lean on the officers police car throwing insults or stand on the opposite corner heckling the police YOU are now the ones trying to PROVOKE A REACTION.\r\n\r\nPeace Exisists When You OBEY the Law.\r\n\r\n-Just the views of an average Citizen-","author":"Dustin Baugh","parent_id":2417,"mime_type":"text\/plain","created":"2001-08-05 04:03:36","modified":"2001-08-05 05:00:02","fileurl":""}]}