The failure of the U.S. government as well as the Israelis to talk with leaders of governments they disagree with underlines the acute paucity of diplomacy being exercised at the current time, which can only jeopardize in the long run the security of ordinary people both in the Middle East and in the United States. It is time for governments to listen to their people, to start talking and stop preaching.

THE U.S. AND ISRAEL: LASTING LEGACIES?
September 28, 2006
By Terry Walz, CNI Staff


In the last 72 hours of Israel's deliberately extended war on Lebanon, toward the middle of August when it was clear that a U.N. ceasefire would come into effect, the Israeli Air Force dropped more than a thousand cluster bombs over southern Lebanon, leaving behind a "lasting legacy" for the people of South Lebanon. These bombs had been largely supplied by the United States, and thus Americans too played a part in creating this dreadful aftermath.

The "lasting legacy" is spelled out by Anthony Shadid in an article on the front page of the September 26, 2006 Washington Post entitled "In Lebanon, a War's Lethal Harvest: Threat of Unexploded Bombs Paralyzes the South." Each of the cluster bombs that were rained down on Lebanon contained thousands bomblets the size of soda cans, that if picked up or brushed can cause immeasurable damage – loss of life or limb.

"It's impossible for me to work out what the logic was," Shadid quoted David Shearer, the UN humanitarian coordinator for Lebanon. "To me, it just seems outrageous that it would happen as it did." Quoting Chris Clark, the UN Mine Action Coordination Center, "What are seen as strikes on top of strikes on top of strikes on top of strikes. It's tantamount to shooting a dead body 20 times."

The bomblets are scattered over a large area that now includes 540 villages, and are found on the ground, in the trees and orchards, on streets and around houses. Women and children who have returned to southern Lebanon after having fled the region during the Israeli attack are now afraid to venture outside their homes. Already 16 Lebanese have died from the cluster bomblets and 90 have been wounded.

Extraordinary though it seems, the use of cluster bombs is not, strictly speaking, contrary to international law – and Israelis have been quick to point that out – but the United States banned the sale of them to Israel for seven years after they had been used in the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The indiscriminate killing of civilians is a war crime. They were used in Kovoso and in Iraq, where they continue to provide a lasting legacy of the wars those countries have faced. The State Department is currently investigating whether Israel violated agreements with the United States on their use during this recent war. Yet some pro-Israel congressmen, including Shelley Berkley (D-NV), sent a letter to the State Department asking that the investigation be dropped.

The lasting legacy of the US in the Lebanon war relates directly to its refusal to interfere with Israel's pursuit of the war, and to hold it accountable for the mounting civilian deaths and destruction of Lebanon infrastructure in no way associated with Hezbollah, the party that triggered the conflict. Since the beginning of the year, when the Palestinians freely elected Hamas to a majority in their Legislative Council, the U.S. has walked in lockstep with the Israeli government in an effort to punish the Palestinians for their vote. It has refused to pressure Israel to be more understanding, and indeed has followed its lead in blocking delivery of aid to the Palestinian Authority. The Israel Lobby for its part has ensured that Congress approve the anti-Palestinian attitude of the Israelis by passing its own stringent resolutions.

Eight months later, the plight of the Palestinians remains unattended, unheard. Recent reports by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs of the suffering of ordinary people, the collapse of the economy, the lack of medicines and food, the shutting down of border crossings, the inability of the PA to pay teachers and the police, and the often random killing of civilians—now close to 300 since late June when an Israeli soldier was kidnapped – goes unappreciated by the U.S. and many of its European allies. Yet it is widely understood that the growth of despair and hopelessness in Gaza and the West Bank will gravely complicate any efforts to bring peace to the area.

Even Israelis, according to a recent poll reported in the September 27, 2006 issue of Haaretz, believe their government should be speaking to Hamas. 67% of the Israelis polled thought a dialog should be taking place with a national unity government, and 56% thought it should be talking to a Hamas-led government. During a tour of the Palestine and Israel in January, a team from the Council National Interest Foundation talked at length with Hamas leaders and found them willing to engage in dialog as long as the Israelis showed themselves serious negotiators.

The failure of the U.S. government as well as the Israelis to talk with leaders of governments they disagree with underlines the acute paucity of diplomacy being exercised at the current time, which can only jeopardize in the long run the security of ordinary people both in the Middle East and in the United States. It is time for governments to listen to their people, to start talking and stop preaching.

ran's President Amadinejad has been portrayed in the US media as "anti-Semitic" based on his comments that Zionist Israel should be dismantled. Pres. Amadinejad recently (March, 1, 2006) met with anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish Rabbis of Neturei Karta, who also call for the peaceful dismantling of Israel, for ethical and religious reasons..

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Recent/index.cfm

http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm

On the Neturei Karta database of recent activities, the two meetings in Tehran, Iran also includes a complete speech by Pres. Ahmadinejad where he also calls for the peaceful dismantling of Zionist Israel in a similar manner as Neturei Karta, NOT as ethnic genocide as reported by US corporate media..

This from Neturei Karta;

"28 October 2005
With the help of the Almighty.

Orthodox Jews the world over, are saddened by the hysteria which has greeted the recent stated desire of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to see a world free of Zionism. This desire is nothing more than a yearning for a better, more peaceful world. It is a hope that with the elimination of Zionism, Jews and Muslims will live in harmony as they have throughout the ages, in Palestine and throughout the world.

It is a dangerous distortion, to see the President's words, as indicative of anti-Jewish sentiments. The President was simply re-stating the beliefs and statements of Ayatollah Khomeini, who always emphasized and practiced the respect and protection of Jews and Judaism. The political ideology of Zionism alone was rejected. President Ahmadinejad stressed this distinction by referring only to Zionism, not Judaism or the Jewish people, regardless of whether they reside in Palestine or else were.

We concur!!... Orthodox Jews have always prayed and till today, continually pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. As per the teachings of the Torah, the Jewish law, the Jewish people are required to be loyal, upstanding citizens, in all of the countries where-in they reside."

entire response to Ahmadinejad from NK @;
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2005Oct28Iran.cfm

US corporate media myths also portray anti-Zionists (whether Christian, Muslim or Jew) who critique the apartheid US supported regime in Israel as either "anti-Semites" if they are Gentiles, or "self-hating Jews" if they are Jewish. However, the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis of Neturei Karta are more familiar with the teachings of their Holy Book, the Torah, than are the imperialists and Christian Zionists (would be Chavez assassinator Pat Robertson) who created and support the militarization of the apartheid state of Zionist Israel..

Returning to the subject of Chavez, the villification of both Pres. Chavez AND Iranian Pres. Ahmadinejad indicates they are primarily a threat to US imperialist interests, mostly in the form of petroleum corporations (Halliburton, Bechtel, ExxonMobil, etc..). The villification of Ahmadinejad could be amplifications of certain methods (ie., torture) used in Iran that are human rights violations. However, when compared with documented torture tactics in US detention facilities Guantanamo, Abu Graib, etc.., we can only wonder if what the US media refers to as "torture" in Iran would be considered "routine interrogation tactics" in US detentions..

Nuclear energy in Iran is another issue largely amplified by US corporate media compared to the harsh reality of US nuclear waste disposal issues from US nuclear weapons and reactors. Neither Yucca Mt. tunnels (constructed by Bechtel Nevada) nor depeleted uranium in tank armor, bullets, etc.. is an adequate response to nuclear waste disposal..

on Yucca Mt.,
"President Bush officially approved Yucca Mountain as the nations first permanent high-level nuclear waste dump & committed to the shipment of over 50,000 "Mobile Chernobyl's" This does not mean an end to the fight!"

fight on @!!;
http://www.shundahai.org/yucca_mt.html

The dangers of DU were known for years, ignored by GW Bush regime;

"SHELLS fired in the Gulf war and Kosovo were made out of material contaminated by a potentially lethal cocktail of nuclear waste, according to a book published this week.

The claim, supported by American army and government documents, suggests that the military in Kosovo and Iraq used depleted uranium (DU) shells containing traces of elements that indicate the probable presence of plutonium and other highly toxic nuclear by-products.

The allegations contained in Depleted Uranium: The Invisible War will embarrass the British and American governments, which have consistently denied DU is harmful, and enrage veterans of the Gulf and Kosovo."

read on @;
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0121-02.htm

We in the US cannot point fingers at Iran's nuclear energy program when we in the US have not effectively dealt with our own accumulations of radioactive nuclear waste. To add insult to injury, the GW Bush regime encourages 1,000 additional nuclear reactors throughout the US to meet energy needs from peak oil..

If i were an Iranian (or an endangered Persian ibex) i wouldn't be thrilled at the prospect of nuclear reactor in my backyard either, though bombing Iran into the "stone age" as GW Bush/Cheney regime so eloquently puts it, is NOT going to improve anybody's health or ecosystem..

visit Iran's biodiverse ecosystems, tribal people @;
http://www.irannomadtour.com/index.asp

Persian ibex mascot publishers;
http://ibexpub.com/

We can thank Ron Reagan's special envoy Donald Rumsfeld for providing Saddam Hussein with military weapons to use against Iran (then Ayatollah Khomeini) for the devastation to biodiversity hotspots in the Zagros mountains along the Iranian border shared with Iraq. US manufactured weapons given to BOTH Iran and Iraq caused escalation of military tensions between Iran and Iraq for several years before the initial Desert Storm. Fanning the flames of tension between Iran and Iraq further weakened the resolve of both nations, thus making the eventual US occupation of Iraq an easier task..

"Unfortunately, the most intact and endemic-rich part of the hotspot - the northern part of the Zagros Mountains, where Turkey, Iraq and Iran meet - has also been the site of several military operations for many years. Biodiversity conservation goals for this area might offer an option for international collaboration on poverty alleviation and achieving a lasting peace."

more on Zagros Mt.'s of Iran @;
link to http://www.biodiversityhotspots.org

Stories have appeared that Chavez recently met with Ahmadinejad and discussed working together for improving their nation's conditions. As with the recent departure of investigative journalist Mike Ruppert (From the Wilderness) to Venezuala, we may require outside assistance to remove the GW Bush/Cheney regime from their ill-gotten position of power..

Mike Ruppert reports back from Venezuala;

"September 12th 2006, 2:25PM [PST] - CARACAS - Now I begin to write about one of the most important and influential countries in the world today, Venezuela. It is certainly the most influential nation in the Western Hemisphere outside of the United States, and it doesn't take a great many tea leaves to see that perhaps the greatest battles over its sovereignty are yet to come; battles in which the United States is no longer a superpower but evenly matched against a rising people, a rising region, and a leader who have been besting it both internationally and inside the country since 1998."

read on @;
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/members/091206_venezuela_caracas.shtml

from: Wikipedia at : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

NETUREI KARTA CALLED "WILD FRINGE"GROUP

Mainstream Orthodox Jewish communities, including some who oppose Zionism, have denounced Neturei Karta's activities; according to The Guardian, "[e]ven among Charedi, or ultra-Orthodox circles, the Neturei Karta are regarded as a wild fringe". [1] Neturei Karta claims that the mass media deliberately downplays their viewpoint and makes them out to be few in number. Their protests are usually attended by just a few dozen people.

GROUP STILL WAITING FOR THE MESSIAH

Adherents of Neturei Karta stress those portions in rabbinic literature which state that the Jewish people were first sent into exile from the land of Israel for their sins. Additionally, they maintain the view that any form of forceful recapture of Israel is a violation of divine will (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Ketuboth 111). They believe that the true Commonwealth of Israel can only be reestablished with the coming of the Messiah.

Neturei Karta teaches that the exile of the Jews can end only with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts return to the Land of israel are sinful.



NETUREI KARTA SUPPORT PALESTINIAN TERRORISM

In recent years, Neturei Karta has aligned itself with Yasser Arafat, the Palestine Liberation Organization and later, the Palestinian Authority. Other Jewish groups have criticized this alignment, describing it as condoning or even abetting Palestinian terrorism.

LEGITIMATE JEWISH GROUPS CONDEMN NETUREI KARTA

the group was condemned by many Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish organizations, including, but not limited to:

Anshei Sfard; Satmar; Bobov; Emunas Yisroel; Ger; Belz; Bnei Yehuda, Nitra; Vizhnitz; Munkacz; Vien; Klausenberg; Torah Vodaas; Novominsk; Torah Temimah; Chasam Sofer; Kiryas Joel - Monroe; Puppa; Young Israel of Brooklyn; Cong. Shomrei Shabbos; United Lubavitch Organizations of Crown Heights; Kamenitz; Agudath Israel 14th Avenue; United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg; Boro Park Jewish Council; Debrecin; US Friends of the Eda Haredit; Lakewood Yeshiva.

ONLY A FRINGE ELEMENT WITHIN NETUREI KARTA SUPPORT THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE

A fringe element among Neturei Karta took proactive steps to condemn Israel and bring about its eventual dismantling until the coming of the Messiah. Chief among these is Rabbi Moshe Hirsch, Neturei Karta's self-proclaimed "Foreign Minister", author of its prayer book Siddur Vilna, who served in Yasser Arafat's cabinet as Minister for Jewish Affairs.

NETUREI KARTA LEADER CALLS FOR THE MURDER OF JEWS AND INFIDELS

In the UK, ... Abu Hamza of the Finsbury Park Mosque, known colloquially as Captain Hook, (has) ... in recordings... called for the murder of Jews and infidels.

NETUREI KARTA PRAISE IRANIAN CALL TO "WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP"

In March 2006, several Neturei Karta members visited Iran where they met with Iranian statesmen, including the Vice-President, and praised Ahmadinejad for calling for the State of Israel to be "wiped off the map." The spokesmen commented that they shared Ahmadinejad's aspiration for "a disintegration of the Israeli government".

PA FUNDS NETUREI KARTA

Amir Rappaport. Arafat transferred funds to Neturei Karta: Captured PA documents reveal that $55,000 given to leader of the anti-Zionist sect. Maariv International, 2 April 2004.

True Torah Jews Against Zionism
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/


Jews Not Zionists
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

are you going to smear these next ?

But why would anyone but a Jewish identity fanatic care so much about such a thing or even presume to take a side? If she isn't Jewish, she's insane

Jewish soul.

Check out one of my buddies blogs.

http://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/


He's fuckin' brilliant- speaks 12 different languages, studies Torah, Talmud, Tanya for fun. He 's more Jewish than me- and he isn't Jewish.

Maybe there is something to re-incarnation- or maybe the way you relate to the Native Americans other people relate to Judaism.

TERRY WALTZ WRITES: "In the last 72 hours of Israel's deliberately extended war on Lebanon, toward the middle of August when it was clear that a U.N. ceasefire would come into effect, the Israeli Air Force dropped more than a thousand cluster bombs over southern Lebanon, leaving behind a "lasting legacy" for the people of South Lebanon."
Unexploded bombs hamper rural recovery
Report, IRIN, 5 September 2006
BECKY: Did he say "more than a thousand?"
What about Jonathon Cook's article?

JONATHON COOK WROTE: "And all of this, of course, entirely ignores Israel's use of as many as 100,000 cluster bombs, leaving an indiscriminate legacy of bomblets across south Lebanon that will kill and maim for months, and possibly years, to come."

from: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/09/177517.php

IRIN REPORT SEPT 5 2006: "According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), at least 100,000 unexploded cluster bombs remain scattered throughout south Lebanon. Most of them were dropped during the last 72 hours of the conflict, when a cessation of hostilities had already been called for by the UN Security Council."

BECKY: So how many cluster bombs DID Israel drop on Lebanon? Was it "over a thousand" or "at least 100,000?"

Since both accounts can't be right, somone is posting misinformation. LA Indymedia readers must decide which report should be discounted?

HEX accuses me of smearing the Neteuri Karta. Yet he cannot refute anything I posted. The Neteuri Karta are a very small group of orthodox Jews, half of whom choose to live in ISRAEL!!

They have funding from wealthy Arab groups who are very anti-Israel and funded a small group of them to go to Durban, South Africa to lead the charge that Israel is a racist state.

I'm not familiar with the two websites HEX posted. I do know that in the late 40's when a huge effort was underway to establish a Jewish State, many orthodox opposed it. However, the vast majority of orthodox Jewish sects DID come around to supporting Israel.

A key provision was that since the GA voted to allow the partition, the Jews were relieved of their responsibility to never attempt to re-establish a Jewish state in Israel, an agreement they had made previously in order to not be slaughtered in their host countries.

You see, all orthodox sects await the coming of the Messiah. The disagreement comes from those who believe the Messiah must come BEFORE a Jewish state can be established.

So there are still A FEW groups of orthodox Jews who STILL oppose the establishment of Israel at this time. They are very few in number and do not represent the majority of orthodox jewery.

all three of these groups are calling for peace

you advocate war

anything negative a war monger says about any group calling for peace is smearing in my book

all three of these groups are calling for peace

No. They are calling for the dismantling of Israel becuse they feel no Jewish state can exist before the Messianic era. This is a minority opinion in Judaism.

I participate in street rallies on this issue, locally. We have many orthodox who also participate. On Aug 12, an entire Orthodox synagogue emptied out and walked over to stand in solidarity with Israel. One of the very vocal participants in LA IMC is an Orthodox Jew who believes strongly in the existence of Israel

you advocate war

Becky is a voice for peace and moderation in this very troubled world. I know. I've actually spoken to her.

anything negative a war monger says about any group calling for peace is smearing in my book

These groups are fringe groups by any stretch of the imagination. These are footnote to history groups.

First justice, then peace. To call for peace instead of justice is immoral. They'll be peace enough in the grave. We, the living, must fight injustice on every front. No appeasement. Death to all injustice.

No peace . No state.

Its that simple.

First justice, then peace. To call for peace instead of justice is immoral. They'll be peace enough in the grave. We, the living, must fight injustice on every front. No appeasement. Death to all injustice.

The problem with platitudes is this:
You are calling for an apoclypse.
People are acting in the name of "justice" and committing heinous crimes. Its no different than acting in the name of religion. Or manifest destiny. Or honor.

me> all three of these groups (peace)

> No. They are calling for the


ha ! see I knew you would end up smearing the other two too

any group (especially Jewish) that calls for *anything* other than what you want get's smeared

(only first level (1 link deep) searches)

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

the word peace appears 7 times


http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

the word peace appears 9 times

a search of the site for the word peace gives 71 results


http://www.nkusa.org/

the word peace appears 8 times

Sorry darling- counting the word peace ain't the same as praying for it and working towards it.

Look at the title of your post:
zionist's call - death to peace

At least three times a day, observant Jews pray for peace with these lovely words;

Oshe shalom bimromav
Hu ya-aseh shalom aleinu
V'al kol Yisrael, v'imru amein.

May s/he who makes peace in the heavens make peace for the world and for Israel. Amen.

Real jews and zionists, too.

you're right - it doesn't matter what a person says, feels, believes or prays for

all that matters are actions

these 3 groups - none of them are fighting for "peace"

their actions bear out their words...

squirming, twisting, tap-dancing and smearing not withstanding, no search on any of these websites will find any words advocating war/occupation/killing in the name of "justice" or any other action that is not framed within PEACE

once more - anyone calling for anything other than peace that says anything negative about anyone who does, is smearing

when you post quotes from any one of these 3 websites that call for anything other than peace first, all else is rescindment, then you'll have something to smear with

Did it ever occur to you that all the talk of peace on the part of your beloved angels (ahem) is a farce in light of the fact that a NK delegation traveled recently to Iran and praised Ahmedinejad for his proclamations that Israel should be violently eradicated? You can't fool all people all the time, sir night. We're not all that gullable as you hope us to be.

their actions bear out their words...

What actions? Show us. What positive steps have they taken towards peace?

They advertised someone else's event called "Peace cycle". This is working towards peace how?

> What positive steps have they taken towards peace?

well called for it for one thing - *above all else*

"A single human life is more valuable than all the treasures in the Universe"

they think along these lines - I think along these lines


you do not

Hex's zealous defense of his favorite Good Jews has been shown to be utterly ridiculous...he's sidestepping how they made a mockery of their alleged advocacyy of peace on their website/s and hoping we don't notice.

you're right - it doesn't matter what a person says, feels, believes or prays for

all that matters are actions

What actions have they taken?

They "called" for it.

Thats the best you can offer? No action? Just words?

how did this get to be about me ?

isn't the subject peace - isn't that what's important ?

nooooo lets play games insted and smear, smear the groups that want peace, smear the people who support them too, smear Iran, smear all Muslims

and let's turn the tables too while we're at it - let's forget we support "justice" (to the death) and insted question just how bad these groups want peace

a great diversionary tactic to discourage people from seeing what *we're rooting for* and waste time to boot -

for "entertainment"

{insert insults for me here}

you're welcome - come back soon :)

You haven't been able to show that NK act for peace's sake rather than just "call for peace", your defense for all their cyberspace peace advocacy has been shown to be a defense of liars and violence advocates, and now, in a bid to distract from your failure, you're accusing _us_ of smearing all Muslims and Iran which we didn't and aren't doing, yadda yadda. That's a slew of strawman arguments, sir knight.

Maybe it's time to find yourself another bunch of Good Jews you can defend more easily from criticism?

The topic isn't quite or solely about whjat you and your ilk are rooting for, Hex.

If time is of essence to you, why do you spend so much of it spewing lame verbiage you're incapable of backing up?

>The problem with platitudes is this:
>You are calling for an apoclypse.

No I'm not. I'm calling for victory. Victory for justice is only an apocolypse in the minds of the unjust. For the rest of us, it means peace becoming a real possibility. Until there is justice, there can be no peace, because the victims of injustice will never cease to resist. Neither will their allies. Were it otherwise, it would have showed up by now.

> find yourself another bunch of Good Jews you can defend more easily from criticism?

why - do you think what you're doing is successful ?

:)


{insert insults here}

{spewing lame verbiage you're incapable of backing up}


as to time - look at it this way

*while I'm airing Guns & Butter* I have time between shows to do so

And since you're here anyway - it ties you up.

While your busy insulting & browbeating you do little else

But I'm spreading the good word at the same time

automation is grand - no ?

I, in conjunction with the other poster, have exposed your defense of the Neturei Qarta as a joke. That you don't want to acknowledge this and prefer to bury your head in the sand instead is your issue as some sane people may be lurking here reading how you've painted yourself into a rhetorical corner and then lashed out at us with strawman arguments in a failed atempt to extract yourself from it.

As for time utilization, I'm spending lots of it in other places too.

hey - whatever turns your crank

do you need a towel too ? - or again :)


> I'm spending lots of it in other places too

doing what - being "successful" ? :)


NOTE to IMC staff - thank you very much for that, I highly appreciate it

feel free to drop me an e-mail with any concerns

thanks again..