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Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs
by repost
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 10:44 AM
The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas.
By Donald Neff
AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israeland how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.
The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”
The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.
The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai LeumiNational Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzelfounded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.
The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.
Another belief of Begin’s was that of the “fighting Jew,” a romanticized idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s old Betar movement song of “we shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.” Israeli scholar Avishai Margalit translated the verse as “proud, generous and cruel,” adding: “Many are still waiting for the generous part to emerge.”
The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.
The other major Jewish terrorist group, Lehi, was more extremist than the Irgun, claiming all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates as belonging to the Jews. When Jabotinsky declared a cease-fire in the fight against Britain and its mandate troops in Palestine during World War II, Stern broke with him and founded Lehi. Stern sought alliance with the Nazis, both because they shared an enemy in Britain and because Lehi shared Hitler’s totalitarian ideology. During the war Sternists openly celebrated Nazi victories on the battlefield.
An infamous document called the “Ankara Document” because it was found in the German Embassy in Ankara after the war, detailed Avraham Stern’s ideas “concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.” It was dated Jan. 11, 1941. At the time, Stern was still a member of the Irgun, which he called by its initials, NMO. Wrote Stern: “The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish People, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries....The NMO...is well acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities toward Zionist activity inside Germany and toward Zionist emigration plans....The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure.”
In the Partition period, Irgun had around 2,000 men, while Lehi had about 800. Though the memberships were comparatively small, the damage these two groups caused in inflaming animosity between Arab and Jew was considerable. When Stern was killed by British police in 1942, leadership of Lehi was shared; among the leaders were Nathan Yalin-Mor, one of the eventual killers of Count Bernadotte, and Yitzhak Shamir, another future prime minister of Israel.
Arab terrorists carried out some major operations as well, including the bombing of the Jewish Agency and the Palestine Post. But in contrast to Jewish violence, it was unorganized and episodic. As historian Michael C. Hudson noted: “Organized Jewish violence against the British and Arabs (exemplified by the Irgun’s bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946), however, was far more systematic and successful than that of the Palestinians, and the latter were unable to play a significant role in the final years of the Mandate.”
The Jewish Agency, as the official representative of the Jewish community, repeatedly denied any responsibility for the acts of the Irgun and Lehi, maintaining they were underground terrorist groups operating outside the law. However, there was close cooperation among Irgun, Lehi and the Haganah underground army under an agreement called the Hebrew Resistance Movement and aimed specifically against the British Mandatory government. It went into force in the fall of 1945, when “Irgun and Lehi accepted Haganah discipline in the conduct of all armed operations,” in the words of historian Noah Lucas.
By December 1947, British High Commissioner Alan Cunningham reported to London: “...the Haganah and the dissident groups are now working so closely together that the Agency’s claim that they cannot control the dissidents is inadmissible.”
Donald Neff is the author of the Warriors trilogy, Fallen Pillars: U.S. Policy towards Palestine and Israel, and Fifty Years of Israel, all available from the AET Book Club.
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Wanted terrorists
by poster
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 10:46 AM
 neff_01.jpg, image/jpeg, 250x301
A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).
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1947: A Year of Terror
by sidebar
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 10:47 AM
Jan. 12—Four killed by Irgun terrorist bombing of British headquarters. Jan. 13—Arab kidnapped and castrated by Jewish terrorists. March 1—Sixteen Britons killed by Jewish terrorists/Britain invokes martial law March 10—Jewish informer killed by Jewish terrorists. March 11—Two British soldiers killed by Jewish terrorists. April 8—British constable killed by Jewish terrorists. April 8—Jewish boy killed by British troops. April 8—Jew beaten to death by Arabs. April 22—Eight killed in Jewish terrorist bombing of the Cairo-Haifa train. April 25—Five killed in Jewish terrorist bombing of British camp. April 26—British police official killed by Jewish terrorist. May 8—Three Jewish shops in Tel Aviv whose owners refused to contribute to Jewish terrorist groups burned down by Jewish terrorists. May 8—Jew killed near Tel Aviv by Arab terrorists. May 12—Two British policemen killed in Jewish Jerusalem. May 15—British policeman killed in terrorist ambush. May 15—Two British soldiers killed in terrorist Stern Gang attack. May 16—Two British police officers killed by terrorists. May 18—One Jew killed, one wounded by Arab terrorists. June 5—Jewish terrorists introduce letter bombs in Middle East. June 28—Four British soldiers killed in Jewish terrorist raids. July 3—“Anti-terrorist” Jewish families beaten up by Irgunists. July 18—British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists. July 19—Another British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists. July 20—Yet another British soldier killed by Jewish terrorists. July 23—65 Jews killed when Haganah sinks immigration ship. July 26—Two British soldiers killed in booby trap. July 29—Three Jews executed by hanging. Jewish terrorists retaliate by hanging two British soldiers. Aug. 5—Three British police killed by bomb; plot discovered to poison the water supply of non-Jewish parts of Jerusalem with botulism and other bacteria. Aug. 10—Four Jews killed in Arab terror attack on Tel Aviv café. Aug. 12—Five Jews, four Arabs killed, others injured, in spread of violent incidents over three days. Aug. 15—Twelve Palestinians killed in raid by Haganah troops. Aug. 18—Shops of five Jews in Tel Aviv destroyed by Jewish terrorists. Aug. 23—Five Arabs of one family—two men, a woman and two children—killed by Jewish terrorists. Sept. 7—French foil Stern Gang plot to air bomb London. Sept. 21—British messenger killed by Jewish terrorists. Sept. 26—Four British policemen killed in Irgun terrorist bank robbery. Sept. 27—Illegal Jewish immigrant killed by British. Sept. 29—13 killed, 53 wounded in Irgun terrorist attack on British police station. Oct. 4—Two Jews killed in ambush, two Arabs killed in retaliation. Oct. 13—Two British troops killed by Jewish terrorists in Jerusalem. Oct. 26—Jewish settlement policeman found killed near Gaza. Nov. 3—Jewish policeman killed, reportedly by Stern Gang after refusing to reveal secret police matters. Nov. 12—21 killed in British-Jewish clashes. Nov. 14—Jewish terrorists kill 4 Britons in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv Nov. 30—Violent riots erupt throughout Arab world following adoption of U.N. partition plan. In Palestine, seven Jews killed and eight wounded in the first day. All told, during the first week at least 159 persons were killed in the Middle East, 66 of them in Palestine. Dec. 2—Palestinians begin 3-day protest strike; 20 Jews, 15 Arabs killed. Five Arabs and seven Jews were killed the next day during a six-hour battle on the Tel Aviv-Jaffa border. Dec. 13—35 Palestinian civilians killed in Jewish terrorist attacks. Dec. 14—14 Jews killed by Arab Legion in retaliation. Dec. 18—Palmach (“assault companies”) kills 10 Arabs, including 5 children, in nighttime raid on northern Galilee village of Khissas. The following day Haganah troops blew up the home of the village elder of Qazaza in central Palestine, killing several inhabitants. Wrote The Times of London: “While the Jews are suffering mainly through sniping at their road convoys, the Arabs have lost many lives through Jewish assaults on their villages.” Dec. 20—Haganah raid on village of Qazaza kills one Palestinian. Dec. 24—Stern Gang member killed for betrayal of another member. Dec. 25—16 Arabs, Jews and British killed on Christmas. Dec. 25—Palestinian landowner killed for selling land to Jews. Dec. 26—Ben-Gurion proposes major offensive to reduce Arab population. Dec. 26—Jewish terrorists get $107,000 in heists of diamond plants. Dec. 29—14 Arabs killed by Irgun bomb in Jerusalem. Dec. 29—Irgun flogs British major and three sergeants. Dec. 30—41 Jews, 6 Arabs killed in riot sparked by Stern Gang. Dec. 31—Irgun claims to have killed 374 Arabs and British during year.—D.N.
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fascinating items on your list
by forgot to delete these, I suppose?
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 11:20 AM
April 8—Jewish boy killed by British troops. April 8—Jew beaten to death by Arabs.
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forgot to delete?
by Meyer London
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 11:26 AM
I think leaving them in was a very good idea; it highlights the disproportion in the casualties. That is, it highlights it for those who don't believe that the deaths of two Jews is far more important than the deaths of many other people, especially Arabs.
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A Whiter shade
by of Pale
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 11:40 AM
Apr 6, 1994 - Eight people were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 13, 1994 - Five people were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 19, 1994 - In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed.
Nov 11, 1994 - Three soldiers were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.
Jan 22, 1995 - Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 20 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 9, 1995 - Seven Israelis and one American were killed when a bus was hit by an explosives-laden van near Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jul 24, 1995 - Six civilians were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.
Aug 21, 1995 - Three Israelis and one American were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.
Feb 25, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 25, 1996 - One Israeli was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 3, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).
Mar 4, 1996 - Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and one soldier).
Mar 21, 1997 - Three people were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.
Jul 30, 1997 - 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem.
Sep 4, 1997 - Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.
Oct 29, 1998 - One Israeli soldier was killed when a terrorist drove an explosives-laden car into an Israeli army jeep escorting a bus with 40 elementary school students from the settlement of Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.
Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 20, 2000 - A roadside bomb exploded at 7:30 in the morning alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, were killed and 9 others, including 5 children, were injured, 5 of them seriously.
Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshanna Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work.
Dec 22, 2000 - Three soldiers were injured in a suicide bomb attack at the Mehola Junction roadside cafe in the northern Jordan Valley. The terrorist, who detonated a belt of explosives strapped to him, was killed in the blast.
Jan 1, 2001 - A car bomb exploded near a bus stop in the shopping district in the center of Netanya. About 60 people were injured, most lightly. One unidentified person, apparently one of the terrorists involved in the bombing, died of severe burns. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 8, 2001 - A powerful car bomb exploded at 4:40 PM in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Beit Yisrael in Jerusalem, causing mild injuries to four people.
Feb 14, 2001 - Eight people were killed and 25 injured when a bus driven by a Palestinian terrorist plowed into a group of soldiers and civilians waiting at a bus stop near Holon, south of Tel-Aviv.
Mar 1, 2001 - One person was killed and 9 injured when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a Tel Aviv to Tiberias service taxi at the Mei Ami junction in Wadi Ara.
Mar 4, 2001 - Three people were killed and at least 60 injured in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya.
Mar 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at 7:40 in the morning in the Talpiot industrial/commercial zone in Jerusalem. Seven people were injured, one moderately. The Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 27, 2001 - 28 people were injured, two seriously, in a suicide bombing directed against a northbound No. 6 bus at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 28, 2001 - Two teenagers were killed and four injured, one critically, in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 22, 2001 - A terrorist detonated a powerful bomb he was carrying near a group of people waiting at a bus stop on the corner of Weizman and Tchernichovsky streets in Kfar Sava. One person was killed and about 60 injured in the blast, two severely. The terrorist was also killed in the explosion, for which Hamas claimed responsibility.
Apr 23, 2001 - Eight people were lightly hurt in a car bombing in Or Yehuda, a few kilometers north of Ben-Gurion Airport, which senior police officers said could only be described as a "miracle" in an area packed with pre-Independence Day shoppers.
Apr 29, 2001 - A car bomb blew up close to a school bus travelling near the West Bank city of Nablus. There were no injuries in the attack. The body of the suicide bomber was found in the car. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 18, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest detonated himself outside the Hasharon Shopping Mall in the seaside city of Netanya. Five civilians were killed and over 100 wounded in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 25, 2001 - 65 people were injured in a car bombing in the Hadera central bus station. The two terrorists were apparently killed in the explosion. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
May 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded in the center of Jerusalem shortly after midnight. There were no injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility. A bomb exploded at 9:00 in the morning near the intersection of the capital's main Jaffa Road and Heshin Street. The bomb included several mortar shells, some of which were propelled hundreds of meters from the site of the explosion. 30 people were injured, most suffering from shock. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
May 30, 2001 - A car bomb exploded shortly before 16:00 outside a school in Netanya while a number of students were still in the building studying for matriculation exams. Eight people were injured, suffering from shock and hearing impairment. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
June 1, 2001 - 21 people were killed and 120 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday, June 1, while standing in a large group of teenagers waiting to enter the disco.
June 22, 2001 - Sgt. Aviv Iszak, 19, of Kfar Saba, and Sgt. Ofir Kit, 19, of Jerusalem, were killed near Dugit in the Gaza Strip as a jeep with yellow Israeli license plates, supposedly stuck in the sand, blew up as they approached. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 2, 2001 - Two separate bombs exploded at about 8:20 Monday morning in cars in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Yehud. Six pedestrians were lightly injured. Police sources say the bombs were probably set by terrorists. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a radical PLO faction, claimed responsibility.
July 9, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber was killed in a car-bombing attack near the Kissufim crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip, causing no other casualties. Disaster was averted as the bomb exploded without hitting any other vehicles. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 16, 2001 - Cpl. Hanit Arami, 19, and St.Sgt. Avi Ben Harush, 20, both of Zichron Yaakov, were killed and 11 wounded - 3 seriously - when a bomb exploded in a suicide terrorist attack at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa, at about 19:30 Monday evening. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 8, 2001 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated his car bomb, lightly wounding one soldier, at a roadblock near the B'kaot moshav in the northern Jordan Valley shortly after 9:00. One soldier was lightly wounded.
Aug 9, 2001 - 15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 12, 2001 - 21 people were injured in a suicide bombing in the Wall Street Cafe in the center of Kiryat Motzkin at 17:30. The terrorist was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 21, 2001 - A bomb placed under a car exploded at 14:15 near the Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem; one woman was treated for shock. A second, very large unexploded bomb was discovered inside the car and dismantled.
Sept 4, 2001 - 20 people were injured when a suicide terrorist exploded a powerful charge on Hanevi'im Street near Bikur Holim hospital in central Jerusalem shortly before 8:00 AM. The terrorist, disguised as a Jew in ultra-orthodox clothing, aroused the suspicion of passersby due to the large backpack he was wearing. As two Border Police officers approached the man, he detonated his shrapnel-packed bomb. Both officers were wounded - one critically. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Hamas claimed responsibility.
Sept 9, 2001 - Three people were killed and some 90 injured, most lightly, in a suicide bombing near the Nahariya train station in northern Israel. The terrorist, killed in the blast, waited nearby until the train arrived from Tel-Aviv and people were exiting the station, and then exploded the bomb he was carrying. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 9, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, injuring 17 people. One person killed in the explosion is believed to be the terrorist bomber.
Oct 1, 2001 - A large car bomb exploded in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Several people were lightly injured.
Oct 7, 2001 - Yair Mordechai, 43, of Kibbutz Sheluhot was killed when a Palestinian suicide terrorist affiliated with the Islamic Jihad detonated a large bomb strapped to his body near the entrance of the kibbutz in the Beit She'an Valley.
Nov 26, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and lightly wounded two Border Policemen at the Erez crossing point in the Gaza Strip. The bomber joined workers waiting to be cleared for entry into Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 29, 2001 - Three people were killed and nine others were wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 1, 2001 - 11 people were killed and about 180 injured when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem. A car bomb exploded nearby 20 minutes later. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 2, 2001 - 15 people were killed and 40 injured, several critically, in a suicide bombing on an Egged bus No. 16 in Haifa shortly after 12:00. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 5, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb shortly after 7:30 AM on King David Street in Jerusalem. A number of people waiting at a nearby bus stop were lightly injured. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Police are investigating whether the bomb, packed with nails and shrapnel, went off prematurely. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Dec 9, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb near a bus stop at the Checkpost Junction in Haifa shortly after 7:30 AM. About 30 people were injured, most lightly and suffering from shock. A second explosive device was found and detonated nearby. The terrorist was killed.
Dec 12, 2001 - Four people traveling in two cars were lightly wounded in an attack at 18:00 PM by two suicide bombers near the Gaza Strip community of Neve Dekalim.
Jan 25, 2002 - 25 people were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated explosives outside a cafe on a pedestrian mall near Tel Aviv's old central bus station at 11:15 AM on Friday.
Jan 27, 2002 - Pinhas Tokatli, 81, of Jerusalem was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing on Jaffa Road, in the center of Jerusalem, shortly before 12:30. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.
Feb 16, 2002 - Two teenagers were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. A third person subsequently died of his injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 18, 2002 - Policeman Ahmed Mazarib, 32, of the Bedouin village Beit Zarzir in the Galilee, was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 27, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at the Maccabim roadblock on the Jerusalem-Modi'in highway Wednesday night, injuring three policemen.
Mar 2, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.
Mar 5, 2002 - Maharatu Tagana, 85, of Upper Nazareth was killed and a large number of people injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 7, 2002 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the lobby of a hotel in the commericial center on the outskirts of Ariel in Samaria. 15 people were injured, one seriously. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 9, 2002 - 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in the crowded Moment cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 17, 2002 - A suicide bomber exploded himself near an Egged bus no. 22 at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 25 people were lightly injured.
Mar 20, 2002 - Seven people, four of them soldiers, were killed and about 30 wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth at the Musmus junction on Highway 65 (Wadi Ara) near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 21, 2002 - Three people were killed and 86 injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers. The Fatah al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The terrorist was a member of Hamas from Tulkarem, on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested be arrested.
Mar 29, 2002 - Two people were killed and 28 injured, two seriously when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 30, 2002 - One person was killed and about 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe on the corner of Allenby and Bialik streets in Tel-Aviv. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 31, 2002 - 15 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 31, 2002 - An MDA paramedic was very seriously injured along with three other people at 17:00 Sunday afternoon in a suicide bombing at the emergency medical center in Efrat, in the Gush Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem.
Apr 1, 2002 - A police officer was killed in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber heading toward the city center blew himself up in his car after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 10, 2002 - Eight people were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 12, 2002 - Six people were killed and 104 wounded when a woman suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 7, 2002 - 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 19, 2002 - Three people were killed and 59 injured - 10 seriously - when a suicide bomber, disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.
May 20, 2002 - A suicide bomber, apparently bound for Afula, killed himself after Border Policemen approached him for questioning at a bus stop. There were no other injuries.
May 22, 2002 - Two people were killed and about 40 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.
May 23, 2002 - A bomb planted by terrorists exploded underneath a fuel truck at the Pi Glilot fuel depot north of Tel Aviv. The truck burst into flames, but the blaze was quickly contained.
May 24, 2002 - A security guard opened fire on a terrorist attempting to ram a car bomb into the Studio 49 Disco in Tel Aviv. The terrorist was killed and five Israelis slightly injured when the bomb exploded prematurely.
May 27, 2002 - A grandmother and her infant granddaughter were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 5, 2002 - 17 people were killed and 38 injured when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The bus, which burst into flames, was completely destroyed. The terrorist was killed in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 11, 2002 - A 14-year-old girl was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.
June 18, 2002 - 19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 19, 2002 - Seven people were killed and 50 injured - three of them in critical condition - when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem shortly after 7:00 P.M., as people were returning home from work. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 16, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on Dan bus no. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel in Samaria. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing IDF uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. While four terror organizations claimed responsibility for the attack, it was apparently carried out by the same Hamas cell which carried out the attack in Emmanuel on Dec 12, 2001.
July 17, 2002 - Five people were killed - two Israeli and three foreign workers - and about 40 were injured, four seriously, in a double suicide bombing on Neve Shaanan Street near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 30, 2002 - Five people suffered light to moderate injuries in a suicide bombing at a felafel stand on Hanevi'im Street in the center of Jerusalem. The bomber, who was killed, apparently exploded prematurely.
July 31, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 85 wounded, 14 of them seriously, when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. The explosive device was planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 4, 2002 - Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of Egged bus No. 361 traveling from Haifa to Safed at the Meron junction in northern Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 5, 2002 - A bomb exploded in a car at the Umm al-Fahm junction in northern Israel, killing the terrorist and wounding the driver, an Arab Israeli resident of Nazareth.
Sept 18, 2002 - Police Sgt. Moshe Hezkiyah, 21, of Elyachin was killed and three people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Umm al Fahm junction. The terrorist, who was apparently planning to detonate the bomb after boarding a bus, set the charge off early when approached by the police for questioning. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 19, 2002 - Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in Dan bus No. 4 on Allenby Street, opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsbility for the attack.
Oct 10, 2002 - Sa'ada Aharon, 71, of Ramat Gan was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 21, 2002 - 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop when the suicide bomber, from Jenin, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 27, 2002 - Two IDF officers and a non-commissioned officer were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at the Sonol gas station at the entrance to Ariel in Samaria. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.
Nov 4, 2002 - Two people - a security guard and a teenage boy, both recent immigrants from Argentina - were killed and about 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Kfar Sava. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 21, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem. The bus was filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, traveling toward the center of the city during rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 5, 2003 - Twenty-two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel-Aviv. The attack was apparently carried out by two members of the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, with the help of the Islamic Jihad.
Mar 5, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 30, 2003 - Over 40 people were wounded in a suicide bombing on the pedestrian mall at the entrance to the London Cafe in the center of Netanya. The bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 24, 2003 - Alexander Kostyuk, a 23-year-old security guard from Bat Yam, was killed and 13 were wounded, two seriously, in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.
Apr 30, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 60 peoople were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a beachfront pub "Mike's Place" in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation. Investigation revealed that the two British Muslims involved in the suicide bombing were dispatched to perpetrate the attack by the Hamas military command in the Gaza Strip.
May 17, 2003 - Gadi Levy and his wife Dina, aged 31 and 37, of Kiryat Arba were killed by a suicide bomber in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 18, 2003 - Seven people were killed and 20 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus no. 6 near French Hill in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. A second suicide bomber detonated his bomb when intercepted by police in northern Jerusalem. The terrorist was killed; no one else was injured.
May 19, 2003 - Three IDF soldiers were lightly injured when a Palestinian on a bicycle detonated explosives next to a military jeep near Kfar Darom in the southern Gaza Strip. The bomber was killed. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 19, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 70 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 22, 2003 - Nine Israelis were injured when a roadside bomb was detonated next to a bus near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.
June 11, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and over 100 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #14A outside the Clal building on Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 19, 2003 - Avner Mordechai, 58, of Moshav Sde Trumot, was killed when a suicide bomber blew up in his grocery on Sde Trumot, south of Beit Shean. The suicide bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 7, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, of Moshav Kfar Yavetz was killed in her home on Monday evening and three of her grandchildren lightly wounded in a terrorist suicide bombing. The remains of the bomber were also found in the wreckage of the house. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 12, 2003 - Erez Hershkovitz, 18, of Eilon Moreh, was killed and three people wounded when a teenaged Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself at a bus stop outside Ariel. Amatzia Nisanevitch, 22, of Nofim, died of his wounds on August 28.
Aug 19, 2003 - Twenty-three people were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 9, 2003 - Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 30 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a hitchhiking post for soldier outside a main entrance to the Tzrifin army base and Assaf Harofeh Hospital. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 9, 2003 - Seven people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim St., the main thoroughfare of the German Colony neighborhood in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 4, 2003 - Twenty-one people were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 9, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber exploded himself at the DCO located at the entrance to Tulkarm. The bomber approached the reception window and exploded himself, injuring two IDF soldiers and a Palestinian.
Oct 15, 2003 - Three Americans were killed and one wounded at the Beit Hanoun junction in the Gaza Strip when a massive bomb demolished an armor-plated jeep in a convoy carrying U.S. diplomats.
Nov 3, 2003 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the West Bank village of Azun, near Kafr Qasem, when he saw Israeli security officials searching for him. One IDF soldier was lightly wounded. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed responsibility for the failed attack.
Dec 25, 2003 - Four Israelis were killed and over 20 wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Geha Junction, east of Tel Aviv, near Petah Tikva. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 14, 2004 - Four Israelis - three soldiers and one civilian - were killed and 10 wounded when a female suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.
Jan 29, 2004 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 wounded, 13 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus no. 19 at the corner of Gaza and Arlozorov streets in Jerusalem. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, naming the bomber as Ali Yusuf Jaara, a 24-year-old Palestinian policeman from Bethlehem.
Feb 22, 2004 - Eight people were killed and over 60 wounded, 11 of them school pupils, in a suicide bombing on Jerusalem bus no. 14A near the Liberty Bell Park. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, which was carried out by Mohammed Za'ul, from the Bethlehem area.
Mar 6, 2004 - Two Palestinian policemen were killed in a terror attack on the Erez crossing in northern Gaza involving rifle fire and suicide car bombs, including jeeps camouflaged as IDF vehicles. Two of the vehicles exploded on the Palestinian side of the crossing, and four terrorists were killed. There were no IDF casualties. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the military wing of Fatah all claimed responsibility.
Mar 14, 2004 - Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing at Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 17, 2004 - Border Policeman Sgt. Kfir Ohayon, 20, of Eilat was killed, three others wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the Erez Crossing. Hamas and Fatah claimed joint responsibility for the attack.
May 22, 2004 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated an explosive device at the Bekaot checkpoint in the northern Jordan Valley. The commander of the IDF checkpoint was lightly injured, as well as several Palestinians. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 11, 2004 - Sgt. Ma'ayan Na'im, 19, of Bat Yam, was killed and 33 wounded when a bomb exploded at a bus stop in downtown Tel Aviv at about 7 a.m. One person was critically wounded, four were moderately wounded, and the rest were lightly hurt.
Aug 11, 2004 - Two Palestinian bystanders were killed and 18 people were wounded, including six Border Policemen, when a bomb was detonated south of the Qalandiyah checkpoint at the northern entrance to Jerusalem.
Aug 31, 2004 - Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12. The buses were traveling along Beersheba's main street, Rager Blvd, near the city hall. Hamas in Hebron claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 8, 2004 - A booby-trapped car exploded next to Israeli security personnel at the Baka al-Sharkiyeh checkpoint, near the Green Line border with the West Bank. The Palestinian driver of the car was killed in the blast. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 14, 2004 - A suicide bomber riding on a bicycle blew himself up near an armored IDF jeep at an agricultural gate, south of Qalqilyah, injuring two IDF soldiers.
Sept 22, 2004 - Two Border Policemen were killed and 17 Israelis wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist at the French Hill junction hitchhiking post in northern Jerusalem. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 7, 2004 - A total of 32 people were killed in terror bombings at two Sinai holiday resorts frequented by Israelis: 29 at the Taba Hilton and three at Ras a-Satan. Among the dead were 12 Israelis; over 120 were wounded.
Nov 1, 2004 - Three people were killed and over 30 wounded in a suicide bombing at the Carmel Market in central Tel Aviv. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Nablus claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out by Amar Alfar, 18, from Askar refugee camp in Nablus.
Dec 7, 2004 - St.-Sgt. Nadav Kudinsky, 20, of Kiryat Gat of the Oketz canine unit was killed by a bomb, along with his dog, when a booby-trapped chicken coup exploded northwest of the Karni Corssing in the Gaza Strip. Four soldiers were wounded in the exchange of fire while evacuating him. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 5, 2005 - A terrorist infiltrated the Erez crossing terminal in the Gaza Strip, activated an explosive device, hurled grenades and opened fire. An IDF force shot and killed the terrorist. The Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 12, 2005 - One Israeli civilian was killed and three IDF soldiers wounded when a bomb was detonated as a military vehicle patroled the route near Morag in the southern Gaza Strip. Two terrorists were killed by IDF forces. The area was booby-trapped with explosive devices, in addition to the bomb that exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 13, 2005 - On Thursday night, shortly before the closing of the Karni Crossing, terrorists activated an explosive device on the Palestinian side of the crossing, blowing a hole in the door through which Palestinian terrorists infiltrated the Israeli side of the crossing and opened fire at Israeli civilians. As a result of the explosion and during exchanges of fire, six Israeli civilians and three Palestinian terrorists were killed, and five Israeli civilians were wounded. Hamas and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsiblity for the attack.
Jan 18, 2005 - An ISA officer was killed, an IDF officer seriously wounded, and 4 IDF soldiers and 3 members of the ISA were lightly wounded in a suicide bombing attack at the Gush Katif junction in the central Gaza Strip. While search procedures were being carried out, the suicide bomber with explosives strapped to his body detonated himself. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 25, 2005 - Five people were killed and 50 wounded Friday night, when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the Stage club on the Tel Aviv promenade at around 11:20 P.M., on the corner of Herbert Samuel and Yonah Hanavi streets. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 12, 2005 - Five people were killed and about 90 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself outside Hasharon Mall in Netanya. The bomber was identified as Ahmed Abu Khalil, 18, from the West Bank village of Atil. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 28, 2005 - A suicide bomber detonated himself outside the Beersheba Central Bus Station. Two security guards who stopped the bomber were severely wounded and about 50 people were lightly wounded or treated for shock. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 26, 2005 - Six people were killed and 55 wounded, six seriously, in a suicide bombing at the Hadera open-air market. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 5, 2005 - Five people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Sharon shopping mall in Netanya. The terrorist detonated the bomb when he was stopped by security guards, one of whom was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 29, 2005 - Lt. Ori Binamo, 21, of Nesher was killed when a terrorist en route to carry out an attack in Israel detonated himself at roadblock set up near Tulkarm following an intelligence tip. A second intended suicide terrorist was also killed in the blast as well as the taxi driver and a third passenger. Three soldiers and seven Palestinians were wounded.
Jan 19, 2006 - Thirty-one people were wounded in a suicide bombing in a shawarma restaurant near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Jerusalem Battalions of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 30, 2006 - Four people were killed when a suicide bomber hitchhiker disguised as an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student detonated his explosive device in a private vehicle near the entrance to Kedumim.
Apr 17, 2006 - Eleven people were killed and over 60 wounded in a suicide bombing during the Passover holiday near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv, at the Rosh Ha'ir shawarma restaurant, site of the Jan 19 bombing. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
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The purpose of the article poster is transparent as cellophane
by Scapegoated Jew
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 12:15 PM
He or she is trying to whitewash, downplay or excuse Palestinian Jihadist terror by pointing to Zionist terror from some 60 years ago. If "they did it too" were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for murdering 6 million Jews just because Stalin killed some 6 million Ukranians.
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"some 60 years ago"
by bogus
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 1:05 PM
And every year since, right up to this very week, has Zionist terror continued.
The purpose of the article was not to justify any form of Palestinian resistance. Resistance needs no justification. The purpose of the article was to illustrate Zionist hypocrisy in denying the legitimacy of Hamas.
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Another
by difference
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 2:39 PM
And the establishment Jewish community was extremely critical of Irgun and Lehi
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Yeah, right
by what a crock
Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 9:56 PM
That's why they elected Begin prime minister.
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"Gaza is NO LONGER OCCUPIED???"
by now it's besieged
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 12:26 AM
 nothinghaschanged.jpg, image/jpeg, 278x422
It is completely surrounded. Zionists control every approach, by land or see, and the airspace above it. They shell it, and fire missiles at it, at will from any direction they choose. They don't patrol inside it in uniform any more, but they have many, many spies, provocateurs and informers working inside. Gaza is occupied in all but name. It's a gigantic, open air prison camp. The people who live there are prisoners in fact, if not in name. Most of them have known no other lives. They were born prisoners. In some cases, their parents were born prisoners before them. Hitler treated his prisoners better than the Zionists treat theirs. To be a prisoner of the Nazis was an unpleasant experience, but it seldom lasted long. No one was born in Auschwitz, grew up there and had children of their own, who were also born and raised behind barbed wire.
What would you do if you had been born and raised behind barbed wire, terrorized and brutalized by armed Zionist goons, humiliated at ever turn, dehumanized, degraded, condemned to endless, grinding poverty, and knowing all along that at any time, you, could be killed without warning or reason?
How would you feel about the people who treated you like that? Would you wish them well? Or would you hate them from the depths of your soul? Would you bow your head and bend your knee, and beg for a few more table crumbs like the corrupt, Vichy Quislings who run the PA do, or would rise up and fight your oppressors by any means you could? Tell the truth now. What would you do if it were you in that situation?
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Ridiculous comparison
by Becky Johnson
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 10:29 AM
Santa Cruz, CA.
In Israeli courts, no convicted felon ever gets a death sentence, for capital punishment has been outlawed.
In 1999, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that all forms of coersive torture were outlawed, save sleep deprivation, in order to exact information from persons in custody.
In Nazi concentration camps, Jews were starved, beaten, subjected to bizarre medical experiments, had their limbs broken, were shot, were gassed, and were burnt in ovens.
There is absolutely NO comparison.
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Capital punishment for terrorists
by Scapegoated Jew
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 10:36 AM
Becky, the reason no death sentence is metted out in Israel expect to Nazis and their aides is that the occasional ones given to terrorists are always commuted to prison terms. Capital punishment exists on the books. I'm stating this for the sake of accuracy.
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"And you claim it never happened?"
by another Zionist lie
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 11:10 AM
That's a straw man. I said no such thing. They're putting words into my mouth again. It's rude. It's dishonest. It's very bad form. What I *actually* said, as anyone who knows how to use a scroll bar can plainly see, is that Gaza is "a gigantic, open air prison camp. The people who live there are prisoners in fact, if not in name." What the Zionists are doing to the other Peoples of Palestine is worse than what they Nazis did to their victims because what the Nazis did was over in a fer years, while what the Zionists are doing has gone on for over half a century. >This effort displaced 8,000 Jews!! Al-Naqba displaced 800,000, and condemned millions of people to live miserable lives as prisoners, behind barbed wire, for generations. That's why they fight back with Qassams. If there were no racist, rogue aggressor state oppressing them, the people of Gaza would have no reason to fire Qassams. >Lefties called it the "so-called disengagement" because the Israelis never disengaged. The removed their civilians from the interior of the giant koncentrationslager that is Gaza, that's all. This is no more "disengagement" than it was when the SS guards left their prisoners alone at night, inside the barracks at Buchenwald. >Yes Israel controls Israel's borders. So what? >Most countries control their borders. Most countries control only their own borders. Israel controls the borders of Gaza and of the West Bank. It also occupies part of Syria. The only reason it no longer occupies part of Egypt is because it was bribed to leave. In other words, it took part of Egypt hostage and collected a ransom. The only reason it no longer occupies southern Lebanon is because Hizbollah drove them out by force of arms. Israel is a rogue, aggressor state, a threat to peace and justice by it very existence. Until the world pulls its fangs, there will be no justice in Palestine. Until there is justice in Palestine, there will be no peace in the Middle East. Until there is peace in the Middle East, there will be no peace on earth. >'nessie' the rabid antisemite and liar was trying to get some kicks by writing these An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject. They really, really, really don't want you to focus on Israelis terrorist roots, let alone it's modern day terrorist policies. > deliberately inflaming lines. This is bunk logic, namely style over substance. It isn't a rebuttal, either. It, too, is a way to change the subject. If they could rebut the truth of the statement, they would have. The can't, so instead they try to change the subject. It's a trick. Don't fall for it. >cluck cluck I said no such thing. They're putting words into my mouth again. It's rude. It's dishonest. It's totally predictable. Zionists lie constantly. They have to. Truth is not their friend. There is no honest defense for ethnic cleansing.
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non sequiturs
by errata
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 11:12 AM
I now notice that while i was writing that, much (though not enough) of what it referred to was hidden.
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Maybe the editors here are wising up.
by one possible explanation
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 11:16 AM
>You leave up the lying inflammatory racist post contaning that lie posted by 'nessie' but hide the post that calls BS on it? Maybe the editors have stopped taking Zionists at their word when they claim something is BS. After all, it's more likely that not to be just another Zionist lie. Like happened here: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/06/166031_comment.php#166112
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'nessie' is having a hatred blast
by Scapegoated Jew
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 11:32 AM
"What the Zionists are doing to the other Peoples of Palestine is worse than what they Nazis did to their victims because what the Nazis did was over in a fer years, while what the Zionists are doing has gone on for over half a century.
>cluck cluck
"I said no such thing. They're putting words into my mouth again. It's rude. It's dishonest. It's totally predictable. Zionists lie constantly. They have to. Truth is not their friend. There is no honest defense for ethnic cleansing.
> deliberately inflaming lines.
"This is bunk logic, namely style over substance. It isn't a rebuttal, either. It, too, is a way to change the subject. If they could rebut the truth of the statement, they would have. The can't, so instead they try to change the subject. It's a trick. Don't fall for it.
"Israel is a rogue, aggressor state, a threat to peace and justice by it very existence. Until the world pulls its fangs, there will be no justice in Palestine.
>This effort displaced 8,000 Jews!!
"Al-Naqba displaced 800,000, and condemned millions of people to live miserable lives as prisoners, behind barbed wire, for generations. That's why they fight back with Qassams. If there were no racist, rogue aggressor state oppressing them, the people of Gaza would have no reason to fire Qassams.
>Lefties called it the "so-called disengagement"
"because the Israelis never disengaged. The removed their civilians from the interior of the giant koncentrationslager that is Gaza, that's all. This is no more "disengagement" than it was when the SS guards left their prisoners alone at night, inside the barracks at Buchenwald. "
You see? This is the kind of racist lying drivel 'nessie' has been trying to coerce everyone into reading throughout the entire IMC network by having every comment calling BS on these outrageous lies hidden.
"Most countries control only their own borders. Israel controls the borders of Gaza and of the West Bank."
Duh, because those very borders are the Green Line of 1949. 'nessie' would have you believe Israel should withdraw from these lines and let the Palestinian jihadists flow into Israel proper to butcher Jews at whim. Then he'll smile to himself silently as the slaughter occurs.
" It also occupies part of Syria."
The Syrians under Assad Sr. refused to take back the Golan Heights. Take it up with Assad Jr.
" The only reason it no longer occupies part of Egypt is because it was bribed to leave. In other words, it took part of Egypt hostage and collected a ransom."
Egypt had been an aggressor that blocked int'l waters to Israeli vessels and amassed a formidable military presence on Israel's borders in the Sinai weeks before the outbreak of the Six Day War in contravention of the 1949 UN brokered cease fire and declared they would massacre the Israeli Jews. To say nothing of what occurred in 1973 on the Day of Atonement. Israel was in the right to occupy the Sinai and hold it ransom for some time as a guarantee against further Egyptian aggression and deserved a "bribe" in return for relinquishing the peninsula.
"Until there is justice in Palestine, there will be no peace in the Middle East. Until there is peace in the Middle East, there will be no peace on earth. "
There will never be justice in the Land of Israel until people like 'nessie', the ISM, If Americans Knew and the like will not be allowed to keep the conflict roiling anymore, and the Palestinians reeducated to value peaceful coexistence over slaughtering Jews.
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"After all, it's more likely that not to be just another Zionist lie. "
by Scapegoated Jew
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 11:35 AM
Are we sane mortals to understand this sentence?
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My post was deleted
by Becky Johnson
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 12:37 PM
Santa Cruz, CA.
My post that countered the lie that Gaza is still occupied territory was removed. the party is over kids.
censorship has arrived.
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Remember Bill Levinson?
by Scapegoated Jew
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 12:56 PM
What shall we do now?
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Please move the discussion elsewhere
by johnk
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 1:41 PM
The raison d'etre of the site is to be a place for Los Angeles news. Please move the Israel / Palestine debate elsewhere. https://israel.indymedia.org/ http://beirut.indymedia.org/ Better yet, pool your resources and get a website with a forum, and you can regulate your own discussions to your own taste.
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"f the site is to be a place for Los Angeles news."
by all politics is local
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 2:41 PM
What happens in Palestine *is* Los Angeles news.
(1.) Every taxpayer in Los Angeles has Palestinian blood on his and her hands. It is the moral duty of all who love justice to make them aware of the suffering their tax money pays for.
(2.) Just as the Zionists invaded Palestine, hijacking it for their own purposes, so too they have invaded this very website, hijacking it to use as a funnel through which to pour their racist propaganda into the minds of the progressive felt. It is the moral duty of every Global Justice activist to stop them, particularly those who run this website.
(3.) The credibility of the entire Indymedia network, and of every IMCista, depends on the credibility of every IMC. As long as any local IMC continues to publish disinformation and enemy propaganda, no Indymedia and no IMCista can ever be taken seriously. Through search engines, new people discover Indymedia every day. When the first thing they see is racist propaganda, forgeries and lies, they quickly and correctly conclude that Indymedia is not a place where one can believe what one reads. The never come back again, and all our work goes for naught. We are all judged by the actions of each of us. Do you want LA-IMC to become the weakest link in Indymedia's chain? It's well on its way, gaining fast on the current weakest link, that racist cesspit NC-IMC. This is not just a story that takes place in Los Angeles, it's a story that takes place in LA-IMC itself. We cannot call ourselves journalists if we are willing to turn a blind eye to a story in our own back yard, just because it makes us look bad.
(4.) The term "local" has lost its meaning in a world where globalization and ecology bind us all in their entangled webs, and in which the internet has but people a world away right here at our finger tips and a foot in front of our eyes. It turns out the hippies were right all along. Yes, everything really is, like, you know, connected, man. What we do here really effects lives across the globe, and vice versa. No, we can't pretend this away by jamming our fingers into our ears and yelling "LALALALALALALALA" over and over again as loud as we can. Our world does not stop at the county line, or at the nation's borders, or even (anymore) at the stratosphere. Neither must our awareness of how it works, what our roles in it are, and what's our moral duty.
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Comrades
by Lets take this show on the road
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 6:04 PM
To Santa Barbara IMC, where Wendy Campbell is self promoting her inimitable combination of viciousness, evenly peppered with cluelessness.
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Where is there freedom of speech on an IMC?
by Becky Johnson
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 8:47 PM
Santa Cruz, CA.
I heard Tia's report that Indybay was allowing some limited comment.
I posted something.
It was gone the next day.
No hope there.
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Response
by johnk
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 9:26 PM
1. I don't disagree with that point.
2. I don't understand point 2. What anti zionists or zionists run the site?
3. The people in this IMC lack any expertise about the situations you're all discussing. If it's true that some posts about the issue are harming the credibility of this site (and the network), then, in this particular IMC's case, the shortest route to improved credibility is not to publish any stories about Israel or Palestine, except when a local person or event is involved. The problem is, of course, this is blanket censorship. Unfortunately, we lack the expertise and knowledge to make any nuanced decisions about what goes up. So, the practical tradeoff in this situation is between freedom of speech and the risk of losing credibility due to bad posts.
4. If what you said were true, then why is it that significant events in my life don't make the pages of US News and World Report? That's a rhetorical question. There are signficant local events that don't have huge global repurcussions. Local issues exist in a gloablized world.
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'nessie' bullshits on autopilot
by Scapegoated Jew
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 9:39 PM
*** To johnk or whoever keeps hiding this comment -- what disturbs you so much in this post? The truth? Or the fact 'Sheepdog' is absent? I know 'Sheepdog' is your friend and he seems to be missed around here, but I didn't drive him away at goinpoint or something, so I'm not to be punished for that.
__________________________________________
"And every year since, right up to this very week, has Zionist terror continued. "
That's a blatant lie and you know it. It was Arab terror that has continued every year since, right up to this very day. From 1949 through 1964 the "resistance" was known as the Fedayun; from 1964 through 1987 it was the PLO; from 1987 through the present it's been Hamas, IJ and the PLO, not to mention the fairly recent foothold Hizballah has gained in the disputed territories.
"The purpose of the article was not to justify any form of Palestinian resistance."
I was talking about Palestinian terror, not resistance. Resistance to occupation isn't the targetting of innocents for slaughter.
"The purpose of the article was to illustrate Zionist hypocrisy in denying the legitimacy of Hamas."
The Zionists aren't showing hypocrisy in resisting Hamas and its legitimacy since Irgun and Lehi weren't Nazi copycats (despite your balderdash protestations to the contrary) neither in organization, structure nor ideology, were not theocratic Jewish organizations, and did not strive for a theocratic apartheid Jewish state that treats the non-Jews as dhimmis at best and persecutes gays severely, etc. and the Irgun and Lehi never used suicide/homicide bombings. Moreover, both Irgun and Lehi were persdecuted by pre-Israel's leading party in cooperation with the British ("the Seazon", for instance); the PA never cooperated with Israel in such a fashion against Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
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credibility
by gehrig
Sunday, Jun. 25, 2006 at 9:59 PM
nessie-obsessie: "The credibility of the entire Indymedia network, and of every IMCista, depends on the credibility of every IMC. "
That's why nessie is easily, far and away, the worst thing to happen to the IMC network, bar none. Not content to repeatedly demonstrate his lack of credibility on the sandbox IMC the other San Francisco types made for him to keep him out of the way, he routinely tries to assert his non-existent authority -- and especially his non-existent moral authority -- anywhere on the IMC network he thinks he can get a scrap of attention.
@%<
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Its debate and discussion/not "hijacking"
by Becky Johnson
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 8:35 AM
Santa Cruz, CA.
ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL WRITES:
"(2.) Just as the Zionists invaded Palestine, hijacking it for their own purposes, so too they have invaded this very website, hijacking it to use as a funnel through which to pour their racist propaganda into the minds of the progressive felt. It is the moral duty of every Global Justice activist to stop them, particularly those who run this website."
BECKY: Zionists did not "invade" Palestine. They bought land there and moved there displacing no one. Many Zionists were indigenous as well, with Jews having a continuous presence in the area of ancient Israel for 3,300 years. The Zionists developed a sparsely populated desert wasteland with no natural resources, into a modern, first-world country. While the Arabs could have done the same, or still can in any Arab country, so far they have not.
The pro-Israel people on this site came because of Joseph Anderson who posted several articles here defaming me and others as well. We came in response to the attack.
We have hardy "hijacked" this site. We are using it for the purpose for which it was intended: posting information, debate, and discussion.
I resent your depiction of MY writings as "racist." I challenge you to find a single racist posting I have made. I am opposed to racism, and believe that each human being is valuable and worthy of basic human rights. I have been accused of this before, and no one has ever brought up a single example of my writings that "prove" that I am a racist.
An ad hominem attack is no proof.
I consider MYSELF to be a global justice activist. As a writer on homeless issues and poverty for the past ten years, my anti-war activism, and my television show which portrays issues not covered well in the mainstream press, I can easily prove the work I have done.
The fact that we disagree on the Israel/Palestine issue is no excuse for blanket condemnations, slander, libel, name-calling, forging posts, or the censorship that ALL POLITICS is advocating.
If you disagree with what we write, simply refute it in the next post. You are allowed to comment and refute our postings. What you want to do is to sqelch the debate.
Why is that? If you are so right and we are so wrong, refuting our arguments should be easy and informative to the readers of LA.IMC.
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to johnk and the LA-IMC crew
by since you asked . . .
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 9:52 AM
>What anti zionists or zionists run the site? By "site", I did not mean the collective that runs LA-IMC. I meant the software on the server that delivers pages to our home computers when we click our mice. It is as polluted with Zionist propaganda as NC-IMC is with Nazi and Klan propaganda. You (pl) are letting that happen. This is very bad politics. The only differences between Nazis, Klansmen and Zionists are minor, superficial and purely of style, not substance. Their substance is identical. They all believe that one ethnic group should have more power, wealth, arms, land, water, trees, etc. than other ethnic groups. This is racism by definition. Do the people who run this site support racism support racism? If not, why do you publish racist propaganda? >The people in this IMC lack any expertise about the situations you're all discussing. That's bad politics. An activist's first duty is to educate himself or herself. Our second duty is to educate others. Ignorance kills. Silence = death. If Americans knew what was really happening in Palestine, they would cut Israel's financial lifeline to their wallets. >the shortest route to improved credibility is not to publish any stories about Israel or Palestine, except when a local person or event is involved. This would be very bad politics for two reasons. (1.) Failing to publicize racism perpetuates it. Consider America's own Civil Rights Movement. It sputtered along for over a century, with few tangible results. Then network television showed Bull Conner's dogs and fire hoses. (You do know who Bull Conner was, don't you?) The result was a sudden upsurge of moral outrage and mass political support. It never would have happened if network TV had not reported on the atrocities, or worse, if it had given equal time to the Klan's version of the story, the way LA-IMC is currently giving equal time to the Zionists. >The problem is, of course, this is blanket censorship. Don't confuse censorship with editing, or fetishize free speech. Indymedia is not here for everybody. It is particularly not here for our enemies to use against us. Only fools help their enemies. Throw the racists out, along with the war mongers, the misogynists, the homophobes and the apologists for exploitation and ecocide. Take a stand for Global Justice. It it not censorship. It is editing. Censorship, by definition, would silence them. Banning them from IMC does not silence them. All it does it force them to pay for their own bandwidth. Speech is free, bandwidth is not. Let our enemies pay their own way. Does LA-IMC actually stand for something, or is apolitical? If it's apolitical, change the name and stop calling yourselves "Indymedia." Better still, resolve to stand for Global Justice. There is no middle ground. Either you stand for something, or you will fall for anything. If you are not willing to stand for Global Justice, get the h*ll out of Indymedia, and stop making the rest of us look soft on racism. >Unfortunately, we lack the expertise and knowledge to make any nuanced decisions about what goes up. (1.) Educate yourselves. There's blood on your hands. If you are not going to wash it off, at least you should know where it comes from. (2.) Seek advice. If you want help, just ask. (3.) This ain't rocket science. Nothing good about Israel should ever appear on a website that claims to be anti-racist, even if it's true. There is also plenty of true stuff that can be said about the Third Reich that makes it look good. Is that a reason to publish it? Of course not. It would only further the Nazi agenda. The Nazi agenda is a racist agenda. So is the Zionist agenda. Do you want to further a racist agenda? Then go ahead publish thier propaganda. But stop calling yourselves Indymedia. >There are significant local events that don't have huge global repercussions. True, but irrelevant. Other local events do have huge global repercussions. It this point in history, as it has been at a number of other points in history, anything that happens in the conflict in Palestine has global repercussions. It even has local repercussion. This conflict reaches, not just into Los Angeles, but into your personal lives, not just into your website, but into your wallet. The shells that rain down on Gaza, you paid for. Except for where the bodies fall, that is no different than if you had hired some local thugs to go kill Angelinos. It's hired murder. As an American taxpayer, you're guilty. And you can't plead ignorance any longer. Now you know. So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to perpetuate the crime by helping to cover it up, or are you going to tell the other Angelinos the truth of where their taxes go? Are you going to give a voice to the oppressed, or are you going to help drown out their cries for help by giving equal time to their oppressors? It's up to you.
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There they go again
by this is the Zionist mentality
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 10:08 AM
They're trying to bully me into shutting up about their crimes. What a bunch of thugs.
And no, it wont work. If they want to shut me up, they are going to have to kill me. That's easier said than done. But even if they succeed, it will only make them look even worse than they already do.
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SchtarkerYid
by Atelena
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 10:20 AM
The big problem with the lead article is a complete distortion of what is "terrorism." All guerilla warfare is not terrorism. Specifically targeting civiliams so as to create terror in order to further a political aim IS terrorism. Its about rules of engagement and goals. Simply, one man's freedom fighter IS NOT another man's terrorist.
In addition to not targeting civilians as their primary modus operandi, Stern and Irgun were reined in by Haganah and when they wouldn't submit to the rules, the Haganah shelled their weapons ship, the Atelena. The Palestinians have never had their equivelent of the Atelena.
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nesstalin still doesn't get it
by gehrig
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 11:17 AM
nessie: "yammity yammity whine whine yammity yammity"
Keep in mind that nessie's editorial policies -- which he promotes as tirelessly as he promotes himself, which is saying quite a lot -- drove his precious SF-IMC right into the ground. Not only did nessie's Stalinist editorial approach drive off the folks he considered undesirable, but they drove off damned near anybody, leaving SF-IMC a tiny, echo-chamber shadow of its former self.
If you want sit in a corner with only a few smug pals for company, serene in your own mastery of the universe, then go the nessie route. If you want to change the world, the first rule for ANY IMC should be to say, "Fuck off, nessie. Go play in your own abandoned sandbox and stop trying to run ours."
@%<
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Apologies
by not keeping up here....
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 5:45 PM
Another by difference Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 2:39 PM
And the establishment Jewish community was extremely critical of Irgun and Lehi
Yeah, right by what a crock Saturday, Jun. 24, 2006 at 9:56 PM
That's why they elected Begin prime minister.
Wrong:
1948 Statement from the Haganah : Deir Yassin "disgraced the cause of Jewish fighters and dishonored the Jewish arms and the Jewish flag" The chief rabbis of Palestine at the time issued a statement that they were "horrified" and prayed that "the spirit from on high may cleanse the hearts of those Jews who have become frenzied by the jewish tragedy into behavior which casts a slur upon the Jews struggle for survival"
Compare that with the statement issued by Abu Nasser, a leader of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades after the most recent suicide bombing. He openly boasted about leading the suicide bombing and called 16 year old Daniel Wultz the "best target combination we can dream of – American and Zionist."
from your friendly neighborhood librarian
New York time April 13, 1948
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""the Palestinian thugs' crimes"
by apples and oranges
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 8:54 PM
They aren't thugs, they're heroes. The aren't committing crimes, they are resisting oppression. Oppressors have no rights which the oppressed are bound to honor.
There are two sides to the struggle in Palestine, the oppressors and the oppressed. If you want the world to think you side with the oppressors, keep publishing Zionist propaganda.
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no nuance in
by nessie-land
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 9:02 PM
"There are two sides to the struggle in Palestine, the oppressors and the oppressed"
Ever think your life might be more...er...colorful if you looked at things as other than black and white? You've still got a few years left, Nessie...you could change
just wondering...no, no, no not this "just wondering"....the other one
Report this post as:
'nessie' idiocy
by Scapegoated Jew
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 9:15 PM
Notived how lovely the music of the two words in the title sounds? :-)
The Palestinian terrorists firing Qassams, mortars and trying to wreak murdfer within Israel proper are thugs and oppressors of their own people -- "honor" killings and forced veiling of women, persecution of Christians and gays, etc. Only evil moral decrepits like you consider them heroes. They're committing war crimes and crimes agaist humanity against both their compatriots and the Israelis. They're trying to bring Israel's Jews under their theocratic apartheidist oppression.
If you want the universe to think you side with the theocratic apartheid oppressors, keep publishing rabid anti-Zionist propaganda with some antisemitism mixed in.
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"Palestinians"
by Lord Locksley
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 9:18 PM
Yea everybody knows how 'oppresses" Yassir Arafat was.....and now he's the richest queer in hell
Report this post as:
"Nothing good about Israel should ever appear...even if true"
by Becky Johnson
Monday, Jun. 26, 2006 at 10:55 PM
Santa Cruz, CA.
NESSIE WRITES: "This ain't rocket science. Nothing good about Israel should ever appear on a website that claims to be anti-racist, even if it's true."
BECKY: Got it LA. IMC monitors? The truth is not the important element. Its bashing Israel and the Jews that counts! Nessie liberally compares Zionists to Nazis, but it was the Nazis who condemned the Jews and Israel, and planned to extend the holocaust to Palestine once eliminating the European Jews.
Now as he claims to oppose the Nazi principle, he is alligning with Hitler in his hatred of Israel and the Jews.
And he calls this "editing"????
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Borders and Gradients
by johnk
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 12:30 PM
to: since you asked.
I like your rhetorical style, but, don't agree with the points. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many comments to read.
As for any "invasion" of this site -- I feel like the site's been invaded by the debaters involved in this conflict. I peruse your threads, and the discussion is so caught up in bitter arguments over details that I often cannot understand what you're fighting over. Thus, I cannot make a decision about it.
More importantly, the *way* you are arguing with each other is so acrimonious and hostile that it's painful to read. More than once, I've wondered if the combatants in this flamewar could just get their own website, to carry out the war in a more organized manner.
Report this post as:
We once had a website, but now its gone....
by Becky Johnson
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 1:05 PM
Santa Cruz, CA.
JOHN K. WRITES: "More than once, I've wondered if the combatants in this flamewar could just get their own website, to carry out the war in a more organized manner."
BECKY: Yeah, like how about SF.IMC or Indybay.org? Too bad these home sites of ours have forbidden this home-grown debate to occur. Nessie, who wrote under the name "since you asked" above, is one of the main monitors/censors at SF.IMC. So you were really talking to the horse's mouth there.
(ever notice how he's always linking back to his site--in the desparate hopes of getting a few readers to replace the ones he's driven away already) Nessie should go write his comments there.
REPLY TO JOHN K.: Since I have been a frequent poster here lately, I personally will tone down any name-calling or painful rhetoric on my part as much as possible.
I much prefer to discuss issues, clarify terms, find common ground, and engage in healthy debate than to endure insult-hurling frat house fights.
I appreciate the work you and other LA.IMC monitors do with your removal of the Bible-spam and the casino-come-ons that plague IMC sites.
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To the LA-IMC collective, especially the editors
by disgusted with this filth
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 1:25 PM
>There are only so many hours in the day, and so many comments to read.
If you haven't got the time to run an IMC right, you shouldn't be running an IMC. The network would be a lot better off, leaner an cleaner, if there were fewer sites doing a better job.
Or, you could recruit some help. SF-IMC keep a clean site, with no disinfo and no enemy propaganda, with three editors. One does most of the work, and it takes less than an hour. That's me. The other two cover when I take a day off. Once the enemy propagandists realized were had a zero tolerance policy, all but a handful of the most hardcore fanatics gave up entirely. Yeah, it can done. Don't tell me it can't. I know better. If you can't find even an hour in your day to stand up and fight for justice, you are no activist. You're a poseur. Is that what you want people to think you are, a bunch of poseurs?
>As for any "invasion" of this site -- I feel like the site's been invaded by the debaters involved in this conflict.
As long as you let racists of any stripe post here, anti-racists will post back. This is a fact. We anti-racists are relentless. We fight racists wherever they are, online, in the street, at shows, wherever. We will *never* give up. We will fight until they have been driven, not just from Indymedia, but from the planet. Imagine a world with no Nazi, no Zionists, No Klan, no Chetniks, no Interahamwe. Sounds good, huh? It will take a lot more than imagination to make it a reality. It will take struggle. Ban the racists, and the problem here goes away. They'll go somewhere else and we'll go fight them there.
In the meantime you are not only making the rest of Indymedia, and the activist community in general, look soft on racism, you are actively promoting the racist agenda by publishing their foul, vile spew. It's bad enough that you do this at all, but to do it in the name of Indymedia is inexcusable. How can we not be resentful that there are people out there who would otherwise have listened to what IMCistas have to say about about peace and justice, but saw racist propaganda on a site called "Indymedia" and will never look at a site like that again, any of them? And who can blame them? As long as any IMC publishes any racist propaganda, all Indymedia can, and will, be considered a racist cesspit. Is this what you want to be known for?
Zionists are no different than Nazis. They believe, and act upon, exactly the same thing, ethnic supremacy. That on occasion they have been enemies is irrelevant. At other times they have been allies. Indymedia has no more business letting them make themselves look good in front of our readers than it has letting Nazis make themselves look good. There is *lot* of true stuff that can be said about the Third Reich that makes Nazis look good. Evil as they were, they also did many, many good things. Do you let Nazis come on here and brag about Nazis scientists, Nazi public health, Nazi engineering, Nazi aviation? Of course not. You don't let them deny the Holocaust here, or claim that Poland started WWII, either. Nor should you.
But you let the equally racist Zionists come on here and brag about Israeli science and engineering. You let them deny al-Naqba and claim they are being persecuted by people who are in fact as much the victims of Zionism as Poland was the victim of Nazism. This is logically inconsistent and politically incoherent.
Why do you do this? Do you have a political reason? "Too busy" doesn't count. Neither does "too ignorant." I know you are no longer ignorant because I myself told you the truth, right here in front of everybody. You can not claim ignorance anymore. The world wont buy it. And you're not too busy to spend time making excuses. So what is it? In the time you take trying to excuse your inexcusably bad politics, you could have fixed the problem. You haven't and you don't. Why? What's your motive? Are you *trying* to make Indymedia look bad? Why? What's in it for you that the savvy activists the world over dismiss Indymedia and a racist cesspit? What do you gain?
Report this post as:
"disgusted with this filth " is 'nessie'
by Scapegoated Jew
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 1:42 PM
He -- a rabid anti-Zionist and antisemite -- keeps on farting his nauseating mendacious "Zionists are no different from Nazis" balderdash excuse for a refrain and would have you believe he's an anti-racist. This is the stuff uproarious laughs are made of. His anti-Jewish racism has been exposed at length in his own IMC, in Indybay.org and here, let alone wherever else he has followed Gehrig to.
If an IMC editor wants to maintain a vibrat IMC and not end up like SF-IMC and Indybay, he or she finds a non-offensive manner in which to tell 'nessie' to stuff it. He can be told to get lost and the sky won't come falling down, as proven by the way the editors at the defunct Vancouver IMC handled his incessant badgering.
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"the defunct Vancouver IMC"
by history buff
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 2:02 PM
The defunct Vancouver IMC was wiped from the map, or erased from the pages of history, or how every you care to put it. All racist cesspits of this earth, both online and off, should suffer the same fate. It wasn't a "vibrant" place at all. It was racist propaganda mill, no better than Stormfront. A place like that has no business online with IMC's name on it. What becomes of the new Vancouver IMC remains to be seen. It shows some promise because, unlike some IMC's, I can sign my name there but the Zionist propaganda mill can't. Voilŕ! No more forgeries. All IMCs should do this: Either you sign a verifiable and registered name, or you post as "Anonymous" no middle ground. It would solve the forgery problem immediately. The incessant slander could be solved by simple fact checking. Fact checking, you may have heard of it: http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/11/1722251_comment.php#1730163 Here's a sample of the new V-IMC: http://vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1
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always take 'nessie' with a salt shaker
by Scapegoated Jew
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 2:33 PM
"I can sign my name there"
You sign your nym ('nessie'), not your name, 'Lee Doyle'. Stop lying.
"but the Zionist propaganda mill can't. Voilŕ!"
LMFAO. I just went over there to check and found the person you hate the most on earth, gehrig, signs his own name to his posts.
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A dissenting opinion
by Tia - aka racist filth
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 2:45 PM
To the LA-IMC collective, especially the editors by disgusted with this filth Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 1:25 PM
>There are only so many hours in the day, and so many comments to read.
Or, let it self monitor like this one does. Someone posts racist filth, another person calls them on it. Someone prints lies- another person prints the truth. Rather than pureed information, its a buffet. The reader gets to chose what resonates with them. Have some faith in the intelligence of the common man.
>Once the enemy propagandists realized were had a zero tolerance policy, all but a handful of the most hardcore fanatics gave up entirely.
No, we gave up because it was so dishwater dull. Boring is a mortal sin in the 21st century. Why black and white when we can have color? Why white bread when we can have Arizmendi's cheese curry loaf? Why SF-IMC when we could have anything else?
> We fight racists wherever they are, online, in the street, at shows, wherever. We will *never* give up. We will fight until they have been driven, not just from Indymedia, but from the planet.
Thats really funny, Nessie, 'cause thats what my action group says. But we mean YOU and YOUR TYPE. And yet we've never met in the street. Fancy that.
>In the meantime you are not only making the rest of Indymedia, and the activist community in general, look soft on racism, you are actively promoting the racist agenda by publishing their foul, vile spew.
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Exposure to EVERYTHING makes for a strong immune system. Its only in the marketplaceof ideas that we can really discover our own voice. I don't want anybody telling me what I can read, what I can wear, who I can date. Control is anathema to indymedia. That means any control Nessie- yours or big brothers.
The free exchange of ideas BROUGHT people down to LA IMC. Thats a good thing. Thats ALWAYS a good thing.
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"Arizmendi's cheese curry loaf"
by bunk logic and lies
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 3:35 PM
That's an invalid analogy. The real choice here is between allowing racists to use the reputation of Indymedia to lend credence to their lies, and refusing to help promote the racist agenda by no longer distributing their filth.
>The free exchange of ideas BROUGHT people down to LA IMC. Thats a good thing. Thats ALWAYS a good thing.
(1.) It is not a "free" exchange of ideas, or else we would see Nazi and Klan propaganda here. Other racists are banned, but an exception is made for Zionists. Why? Have the editors been bought off, or bullied into submission?
(2.) It is *not* always a good thing to bring people. It's only a good thing if it brings the right people. Racists are not the right people. If all this site wants to do is get a lot of hits, all it needs to do is run celebrity sex stories. Is that what Indymedia is for? I don't think so. Indymedia is for activists in the Global Justice Movement, their friends, their allies, and their potential friends and allies. That leaves racists out, also war mongers, misogynists, homophobes, liars, and apologists for exploitation and ecocide. Throw them out, or get out of Indymedia. They don't belong here, and if you think they do, neither do you.
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The Klan and neo-Nazis are always racist
by Scapegoated Jew
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 3:52 PM
and are rabidly racist by definition. Conversely, the vast majority of Zionists that post here aren't racist and Zionism isn't racist by definition. The editors are wise enough to know the difference and apparently refuse to let you bully or harrass them into banning all Zionists or non pro-Palestinian posts just because you wish for them to do so on laughably spurious grounds.
"(2.) It is *not* always a good thing to bring people. It's only a good thing if it brings the right people. Racists are not the right people."
So it was a mistake to allow you in here as you're an unrepentant anti-Jewish racist.
"Indymedia is for activists in the Global Justice Movement, their friends, their allies, and their potential friends and allies."
I and my fellow "Zionists" along with the non-racist neutrals and anti-Zionists are such people.
" That leaves racists out, also war mongers, misogynists, homophobes, liars, and apologists for exploitation and ecocide. Throw them out, or get out of Indymedia. They don't belong here, and if you think they do, neither do you."
This means you and Juif Antagoniste for instance shouldn't be allowed here anymore.
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Zionism is racist by definition.
by Death to the Zionist entity
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 4:13 PM
Zionism is predicated on the postulate that one ethnic group has greater rights to arms, land, water, trees, money and political power than do other ethnic groups. That is the very definition of racism.
Report this post as:
or garlic herb sourdough
by Tia
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 5:29 PM
"Arizmendi's cheese curry loaf"...especially hot out of the oven.....garlic sourdough's awfully good, too.
The free exchange of ideas BROUGHT people down to LA IMC. Thats a good thing. Thats ALWAYS a good thing.
>(1.) It is not a "free" exchange of ideas, or else we would see Nazi and Klan propaganda here.
The good thing about free speech is that when neo-Nazis and the Klan (and Wendy Campbell) open their mouths, their views are exposed for what they really are. They don't hold up well to scrutiny- daylighting is a good thing because it exposes them and demystifies them and turns 'em to dust like a 1950's vampire. (Librarians are really into this free speech stuff, in case you haven't noticed) When all sides post, it can work. When only one side posts, it is doomed to failure. Your collective supports NAMBLA- you've claimed they have the right to publish anything they want . People can buy it or not buy it as they see fit. If people don't like what they see on Indymedia, they can skip a thread. Your belief that people need to be "protected" from politically incorrect speech is irritatingly patriarchal and condescending.
>Other racists are banned, but an exception is made for Zionists. Why?
No, JA is allowed to post here, as is Wendy. And Zionism is not a racist belief. It is the belief that the Jewish people have the right to self determination in their ancient homeland.
>(2.) It is *not* always a good thing to bring people. It's only a good thing if it brings the right people.
This in itself is a supremicist attitude. Who defines the "right people"? Not you, I hope. IMC's should be the voice of the people. All the people.
>Indymedia is for activists in the Global Justice Movement, their friends, their allies, and their potential friends and allies.
At least four of those you consider racist are deeply involved in the global justice movement. So, who's issuing the identity cards as to who is acceptable and who isn't?
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Palestinian nationalism is racist by definition.
by Death to the Palestinian entity
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 7:34 PM
Rabid anti-Zionism is predicated on the postulate that one ethnic group, the Palestinians, has exclusive rights to arms, land, water, trees, money and political power while other ethnic groups have none, and on the lie that Zionism is racist by definition. That is the very definition of racism.
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"IMC's should be the voice of the people. All the people."
by oh, really?
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 8:19 PM
Does that include anti-Semites? Should Indymedia be the voice of anti-Semites?
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Re: Banning anti-semites
by Tia
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 8:34 PM
Well, sweetheart, my world is glorious technicolor and filled rainbows and lollipops and curry cheese bread.
TW is an anti-Semite- but he writes movingly and beautifully about environmental issues. So I wouldn't ban him. You're also an anti-Semite, but you write movingly and beautifully about community responsibility, so I wouldn't ban you, either.
Even anti-Semites may have some wisdom to offer the world. Having an open mind and an open heart means accepting what is wise and beautiful about each of us, yet accepting that we are not yet perfect.
I clearly have more faith in humankind than you.
So far, I haven't seen anything redeeemable about either JA or Wendy...but it may yet happen.
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keeping his ghost town uncluttered
by gehrig
Tuesday, Jun. 27, 2006 at 9:47 PM
nessie: "If you haven't got the time to run an IMC right, you shouldn't be running an IMC. "
But remember, nessie, running an IMC site is harder when people actually post things on it. Surely you remember, 'way back when, when people posted things on SF-IMC? Good thing that, with your superior ideology and all, all those pesky posters have been chased away, and no longer clutter up your ghost town with content.
@%<
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Why its so easy to edit at SF.IMC
by Becky Johnson
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 12:02 AM
Santa Cruz, CA.
Doesn't take long to edit at SF.IMC ---
All Nessie does is look at WHO is posting, and if he doesn't like them, they are gone. He doesn't even have to bother reading the posts.
And since so few people ever post, its gotten easier and easier and easier.
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"You're also an anti-Semite"
by sticks and stones
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 2:33 AM
Zionists call all their critics "anti-Semites," unless they are Jewish, in which case they are called "self-hating Jews." Either way, an ad hominem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject.
>surely you remember, 'way back when, when people posted things on SF-IMC?
People still post things on SF-IMC, just not people like gehrig and Wendy. Now days our readers find hard news, cogent analysis and no racists. Those people who like reading what racists have to say, left. Good riddance. We aren't trying to reach a lot of people. If we were, we'd run celebrity sex stories. We're trying to reach the right people. The right people don't like reading what racists have to say. They aren't interested. People who are interested in what racists have to say, can read Stormfront and Masada2000.
>so few people ever post
Better a few of the right ones than a lot of the wrong ones.
See Judges 7: 1-7
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nessie's rationalizing again
by gehrig
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 7:53 AM
nessie: "People still post things on SF-IMC, just not people like gehrig and Wendy"
... or just about anybody else who ever posted at SF-IMC. But you maintain your self-deluding stance that as long as you keep repeating "I threw out the bathwater," people won't notice that you also threw out the baby.
Or are you going to argue that, since your Stalinesque editorial policies reduced SF-IMC traffic by 99%, that SF-IMC traffic before you took it over was 99% "racist"?
Your little toy has failed, nessie. We knew it had failed a year ago. The IMC world voted with its feet, and left your sandbox behind. All that's left is an exercise in how long and how ludicrously you can maintain your denial.
@%<
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Mendacious bunk
by Scapegoated Jew
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 9:18 AM
Most Zionists call only their antisemitic critics "antisemites", even if they're Jewish. Some Zionists would say these Jews are "self-hating Jews", an often inaccurate label that I find ridiculous and think should be abandoned.
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There they go again
by so typical
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 2:33 PM
Notice how hard they are trying to change the subject. We must have struck a nerve. They really, really, really don't want you focus on Israel's terrorist roots.
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"There they go again"
by heard it before
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 2:43 PM
Notice how hard he is trying to divert out attention. We must have struck a nerve. He really, really, really doesn't want you focus on his being exposed again.
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stick a fork in him, and SF-IMC too
by gehrig
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 3:05 PM
nessie: "Notice how hard they are trying to change the subject. We must have struck a nerve. They really, really, really don't want you focus on Israel's terrorist roots."
Exactly the kind of burst of bogosity that sent SF-IMC down the toilet.
The subject of the thread had become one of nessie's lectures on how everybody else should run their IMC's like nessie's own ghost town. When it was pointed out that his ghost town _is_ a ghost town, and that not even nessie can refute it or pretend it's not true, and when it's clear that his stock argument -- "I ran off the bad guys" -- can only suffice as an explanation if you assume that nearly everyone who read SF-IMC before he took it over was a bad guy, then he's stuck with that little Pavlovian tic of his, "Notice how hard they are trying to change the subject" -- after, of course, nessie had already changed it!
@%<
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"nessie"
by off topic
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 4:54 PM
This thread is about Israel's terrorist roots. If the Zionist propaganda mill really wanted to discuss "nessie," they would start a thread. They don't. They want to disrupt this thread. it's a trick. Don't fall for it. Focus, please. Let us now examine Israel's terrorist roots more deeply: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/160324_comment.php#163011 (snip) . . . Menachem Begin, terrorist extraordinaire, who later was elected to the highest office in the land. Before that, he waged war against Hitler enemies. See: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/irgun.html Irgun Zeva'i Le'umi “The National Military Organization” (Etzel, I.Z.L.) (snip) From 1943 Etzel was headed by Menachem Begin. In February 1944, Etzel declared war against the British administration. It attacked and blew up government offices, military installations and police stations. (snip)
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"by off topic Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 4:54 PM "
by debate coach
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 5:06 PM
There he goes again. This thread is about whatever nessie decides it to be whenever the mood strikes. If the rabid anti-Zionist propaganda mill really wanted to discuss Israeli terror, they would stick to the topic all the way through. They don't. They want to disrupt this thread. it's a trick. Don't fall for it. Focus, please.
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The only one who wants to discuss Nessie
by is Nessie
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 5:08 PM
The rest of us are bored of it already.
Nessie, on the other hand, never tires of discussing Nessie.
Maybe he could do it elsewhere?
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More about Israel's terrorist roots
by back to the topic
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 6:06 PM
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/160324_comment.php#163011 (snip) Shamir’s Background (snip) . . . was born Yitzhak Yzernitzky, in Rozeny, in what is now Byelorussia, in 1915. (snip) Little is known of his Irgun career, but one incident stands out. In 1938 Yzernitzky and a 15-year-old recruit, Eliyahu Bet Zouri, tried to blow up a WZO defence fund collection booth which levied a toll on Jewish travellers leaving Tel Aviv. They planted a crude gunpowder bomb which went off prematurely, severely burning Bet Zouri’s legs and scorching the face of Israel’s future Prime Minister. But this bizarre incident was a mere nothing compared to his career as a leading figure in the “Stern Gang”. (snip) * * * * * >a 15-year-old recruit, Just in case you were wondering who first armed children in Palestine. (snip)
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he can't stand the scrutiny
by gehrig
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 9:01 PM
nessie: "back to the topic"
That's nessie-ese for "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
But, on some level at least, you can't blame him for wanting to hang out at other IMCs than SF-IMC On other IMCs -- like this one -- people actually still post things. As you might expect, on sites that (unlike his) actually honor the principles on which the IMC network was founded.
@%<
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Anti-semite MEANS Jew-hater
by Becky Johnson
Wednesday, Jun. 28, 2006 at 11:20 PM
Santa Cruz, CA.
NESSIE WRITES: Zionists call all their critics "anti-Semites," unless they are Jewish, in which case they are called "self-hating Jews."
BECKY: I prefer the term Israel-basher or Jew-basher so I don't get caught up in the "Don't you know what a SEMITE is??? ARABS are semites, too" argument to nowhere.
Jews who bash Israel are Jewish Israel-bashers. Jews who hate Jews are Jew-hating Jews.
Anti-semite is also correct as it was historically conceived --to describe the phenomenon of Jew-hatred, and as it is commonly understood.
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more from nessie's bizarro-lexicon
by gehrig
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 5:42 AM
nessie, trying to rationalize away his antisemitism: "To decide who to hate, and who not to hate, solely on the basis of which ethnic group they belong to, is racist by definition. It is, in fact, the very definition of racism."
As usual, nessie tries to absolve himself from his blatant antisemitism by redefining terms in a self-serving way. According to nessie, if you don't hate every last Jew on the planet, then you're not reallly an antisemite. He believes you can hate 99.5% of American Jews -- as he has repeatedly demonstrated he does -- but as long as he can point to a Jew or two he doesn't hate, then he couldn't _possibly_ be an antisemite.
Does nessie really mean this, though? Of course not. He'll be the first to tell you that Wehrmacht Wendy Campbell is an antisemite, for example. But he also knows that Wehrmacht Wendy has a few "good Jews" that she doesn't hate. But Wehrmacht Wendy isn't nessie, you see, and therefore the same simple rule which applies to her couldn't _possibly_, oh no, not ever, apply to nessie. One rule for nessie, one for everyone else. As usual.
@%<
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The Devil (George Warmonger Bush) on Likud Extremism and the Irgun Zvai Leumi
by The Devil (George Warmonger Bush)
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 6:22 AM
The Devil (George Warmonger Bush): "Sorry to Oil the Military Aid to the Irgun Zvai Leumi / Likud Extremist but Oil comes First. Fill her Up ???????"
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To "the Devil"
by Scapegoated Jew
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 9:59 AM
Would you mind not inserting such incoherent babbling tripe where it doesn't belong here? You don't even know what the hell you're doing much less saying.
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Carte blanche to Muslim sepremacism
by Scapegoated Jew
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 10:35 AM
It's obvious that creatures like TW, Ryan, "the Devil", Meyer London, etc. turn a blind eye to these jihadists' very palpable supremacist ideology while they're more than happy to bash Israel day and night on much less. This is double standards if not implicit racism.
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The Bush End Times Death Cult on Likud Extremist / Irgun Zvai Leumi
by The Bush End Times Death Cult
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 10:36 AM
Bush: "9-11 the Aayraabs Did It ! 9-11 the Eyerackies Did It ! 9-11 the Mooslims Did It ! Y'all back the Likud Extremist / Irgun Zvai Lemi fer Jesus and Yull git tuh Heaven. Rapture says so. HALLELUYAH AND COMFURT A SINNER !!!!! AH HAVE EXURSIZED THE DEMON !!!!!! This house is clean."
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Likud Extremist / Irgun Zvai Lemi fer Jesus
by Scapegoated Jew
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 10:49 AM
Shouldn't you be raving and lathering these gems in some White supremacist forum? This is Indymedia, you know. Substance abuse can play some funny tricks on the mind. So, do you also claim Jesus was the first Palestinian?
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non sequitur
by confusing
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 4:23 PM
>To decide who to hate, and who not to hate He's talking about this: http://la.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=166060#166508 But hey, what else can we expect from people who don't consider pro-Semitism to be as racist as anti-Semitism. Pro-Semitism is as racist as pro-Aryanism. A racist is a racist is a racist. To make an exception for any ethnic group is the very definition of racism.
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try to keep up
by gehrig
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 4:37 PM
nessie: "confusing"
Sorry you've having trouble keeping up with the rest of us. Maybe you'd find that easier if you'd had an actual new thought at any time since 1972.
The same definitional legerdemain you're using to magically absolve yourself of your own blatant antisemitism also absolves Wehrmact Wendy of _her_ blatant antisemitism. Funny how that works. Now you're going to have to let her back into your sandbox.
@%<
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A Zionist is someone who wants you to believe
by a racist is a racist is a racist
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 5:21 PM
that:
(1.) an anti-Semite is a racist but a pro-semite isn't.
(2.) it is better to focus who is and who is not an anti-Semite, than it is to focus on Israel's terrorist roots.
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SchtarkerYid
by Just more meaningless Nessie droppings
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 5:44 PM
Just more meaningless Nessie droppings. No, Nessie,none of what you've said is correct and we've been through it before so I know that you lknow better too.
Although itsbeen established that you get your jollies starting flame wars, go do it in SF Indymedia where at least theres no one to disturb.
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More about Israel's terrorist roots
by back to the topic
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 7:15 PM
Begin was not just a founding father of Israel, but also the butcher of Deir Yassin, Palestine’s very own Lidice: See: http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html (snip) Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem. By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem. That evening the Irgunists and the Sternists escorted a party of foreign correspondents to a house at Givat Shaul, a nearby Jewish settlement founded in 1906. Over tea and cookies they amplified the details of the operation and justified it, saying Deir Yassin had become a concentration point for Arabs, including Syrians and Iraqis, planning to attack the western suburbs of Jerusalem. They said that 25 members of the Haganah militia had reinforced the attack and claimed that an Arabic-speaking Jew had warned the villagers over a loudspeaker from an armored car. This was duly reported in The New York Times on April 10. A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern Gang, just as they had after the attack on the King David Hotel in July 1946. A 1987 study undertaken by Birzeit University's Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian Society found "the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120". The Haganah leaders admitted that the massacre "disgraced the cause of Jewish fighters and dishonored Jewish arms and the Jewish flag." They played down the fact that their militia had reinforced the terrorists' attack, even though they did not participate in the barbarism and looting during the subsequent "mopping up" operations. They also played down the fact that, in Begin's words, "Deir Yassin was captured with the knowledge of the Haganah and with the approval of its commander" as a part of its "plan for establishing an airfield." Ben Gurion even sent an apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But this horrific act served the future State of Israel well. According to Begin, “Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.” (snip) Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map. By September, Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Poland, Rumania, and Slovakia were settled there over the objections of Martin Buber, Cecil Roth and other Jewish leaders, who believed that the site of the massacre should be left uninhabited. The center of the village was renamed Givat Shaul Bet. As Jerusalem expanded, the land of Deir Yassin became part of the city and is now known simply as the area between Givat Shaul and the settlement of Har Nof on the western slopes of the mountain. The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world. (snip)
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Exactly
by Scapegoated Jew
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 7:40 PM
SY: "Just more meaningless Nessie droppings'"
And recurring spam.
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there they go again
by so typical
Thursday, Jun. 29, 2006 at 7:52 PM
Not how they fail to even try to deny the truth. Instead, they employ a logical fallacy to distract you. It's a good thing you're too smart to fall for it.
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Nessie: no new thoughts since 1972
by gehrig
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 6:13 AM
Sorry, nessie, but reprogramming your keyboard macro to include a new stock phrase ("Good thing you're too smart") doesn't qualify as actually having a new thought. It looks like the 1972 date still holds.
@%<
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Why Nessie is a Liar
by Tia
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 7:04 AM
"Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed '
The reason I know you are a liar, Nessie, is because I've pointed this out to you multiple times, yet you continue to ignore it.
Fom Palestine remembered- an anti-Israel site:
The old village cemetery , southeast of the site, is unkempt and threatened by debris from aring road that has been constructed around the village hill. One tall cypress tree still stands at the center of the cemetery.
Guess that cemetary wasn't exactly bulldozed. Your sources are lying. Here's what the Haganah said "We will maintain the graves and the remaining property and return it to the owners" Yep- fom the same NYT articles your source quotes.
"The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history." Yep- because its one of the few incidents anti_ israel folk can dig up where the Jewish freedom fighters behaved less than exemplary.
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"Fom Palestine remembered- an anti-Israel site"
by conflicting accounts
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 9:49 AM
Deir Yassin Remembered, which is *also* an anti-Israel site, says it was bulldozed. So we who have never physically witnessed the actual site must choose which account to believe. Perhaps this article from Israel Insider, a pro-Israeli ste, can shed some light on Zionist attitudes about Muslim cemeteries: http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/7769.htm Israeli refuse to stop dig at Muslim cemetery despite denunciations by Muslims By: Associated Press Published: February 9, 2006 A dispute over the fate of an ancient Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem threatened Wednesday to ignite tensions in Holy City as workers removed skeletons from the site despite Muslim pleas for the work to end. Israeli developers and archaeologists are removing the tombs to make room for the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center to build a multi-million-dollar Museum of Tolerance, dedicated in part to promoting understanding among different religions. Muslims are incensed. Mufti Ikrema Sabri, the senior Islamic cleric in Jerusalem, on Wednesday demanded that the dig stop at the site which until 1948 served as the main Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem. "There should be a complete cessation of work on the cemetery because it is sacred for the Muslims," Sabri told The Associated Press. The Waqf, the Muslim council in Jerusalem that Sabri oversees, was not consulted on the dig, he said. The cemetery was in use for 15 decades and friends of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad are buried there, Sabri said. On Sunday, a Muslim court in Jerusalem ordered work at the site halted. The developing company conducting the work, Moriah, said the court did not have jurisdiction over the dig. Work to remove the tombs was stopped for two days this week, but continued Wednesday, Moriah spokesman Itsho Gur said. "There are tensions over this work," Gur said. "But as long as we don't get an official order from police or from a court, we won't stop the work." Israel's Supreme Court is slated to rule later this month on a petition by Israeli Muslim groups to halt the tomb removals. It has refused to issue a temporary restraining order halting the dig until it makes a final decision. Gur denied a report in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday that workers had damaged the bones that were removed. The bones are being turned over to Israeli religious authorities, Gur said, adding that the Israeli Antiquities Authority is overseeing the dig according to Israeli law. A spokeswoman for the authority, Osnat Goaz, would not comment when asked if Muslim authorities were consulted about the dig. Construction on former Jewish, Christian and Muslim cemeteries goes on daily in Israel, after the proper removal of the tombs, Goaz said. The bones are then reburied, she said. "Israel is more crowded with ancient artifacts than any other country in the world," Goaz said. "If we didn't build on former cemeteries, we would never build in Israel." The ground for the Museum of Tolerance was laid in a highly-publicized ceremony in 2004 attended by dignitaries including, Ehud Olmert, currently acting prime minister, and California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. The Israeli branch of the Simon Wiesenthal center, which seeks to find Nazi war criminals around the world and bring them to justice, declined to comment on the cemetery issue. The Los Angeles office was not immediately available for comment. The center's Web site says the museum seeks to "promote unity and respect among Jews and between people of all faiths." The site of the museum is located in the heart of Jerusalem, near the line that divided the two sides of the city until Israel captured traditionally Arab east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast war. Muslims stopped using the cemetery in 1948 after the city was divided during the creation of Israel. A local Muslim court, called the Shariya Court, ruled in 1894 that the sanctity of cemeteries can be lifted, but only by a Muslim authority, Sabri said.
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perfect for you, nessie
by gehrig
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 11:30 AM
"Deir Yassin Remembered" -- that's the site with Israel Shamir on the board of directors, isn't it. You know, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shamir. The one even Palestinians call an antisemite. Sounds perfect for you, nessie. @%<
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"off topic"
by au contrair
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 11:58 AM
Even if this preposterous allegation were true, it would still be an ad hominem tu quoque, i.e., bunk logic. Anything about Deir Yassin is definitely on topic. The story of Deir Yassin did not end when the killers wiped the blood from their hands. It's still going on. It will never be forgotten. It will never be forgiven. Like Lidice before it, Deir Yassin shall live in the annals of infamy forever. As long as humans live, its name will be spoken with disgust and revulsion. Israel's terrorist roots have not been pulled up, either. Au contrair, they have sunk even deeper. Fertilized by blood of its victims, they have grown strong, branched and blossomed. The continuity from Irgun to IOF is as unbroken as that from the Ustashi to the HOS or from the Chetnik Movement to the SRP. Ruthless brutality in the name of militant racism is a generation spanning phenomenon. A case can even be made that modern Israel's ethnic cleansing has roots in the Late Bronze Age. It is, after all, the mass murder of Canaanites and Philistines upon which modern Zionists base their claim to the land.
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Still off topic
by Scapegoated Jew
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 12:12 PM
This thread's topic is *Hamas*. Really. Scroll up and see for yourself. The bunk logic is yours. If you want to mope about Deir Yassin, do it where your Canadian friend St. Angie Tibbs can keep you company. (Strange that she's reluctant to show up here, isn't it.)
"Ruthless brutality in the name of militant racism is a generation spanning phenomenon."
That's indeed the case with Hamas which has deep roots in the Muslim Brotherhood of early 20th century.
The remainder of your ravings are off topic.
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"This thread's topic is *Hamas*"
by another Zionist lie
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 12:18 PM
The topic of the thread is "Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs"
It's true, too. The IOF makes Hamas look like angels.
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It stands for the Israeli Occupation Force
by Death to the Zionist entity
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 12:36 PM
It includes, but is not limited to, the IDF.
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"no such military"
by another Zionist lie
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 1:01 PM
Their victims tell us otherwise.
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"Their victims tell us otherwise"
by debate coach
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 1:20 PM
Objection - appeal to pity --> inadmissable.
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"People who do stuff like this can't be trusted to be telling the truth about anythin
by bunk logic
Friday, Jun. 30, 2006 at 7:56 PM
Irrelevant to the arguments.
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straw man
by bunk logic
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 4:27 AM
This isn't an argument. It's a lesson in history that certain people are attempting to drown out with noise because thay don't want you to think about its implications today: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/166838.php
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"its implications today"
by pointer
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Desecration of Jewish and Muslim cemeteries: a comparison
by Becky Johnson
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 8:52 AM
Santa Cruz, CA.
BECKY: Nessie has been so busted!! TIA has shown that one anti-Israel site (Palestine Remembered...) didn't coordinate it's anti-Jewish propaganda with another anti-Jewish site (Deir Yassin Remembered...) though both tried to paint a negative picture of the Israelis. It's obvious the story of desecrating the Muslim graves in Deir Yassin is fabrication, accidently exposed by the other site ---note the smokescreen that CONFLICTING ACCOUNTS tries to raise here: CONFLICTING ACCOUNTS WRITES: "Perhaps this article from Israel Insider, a pro-Israeli site, can shed some light on Zionist attitudes about Muslim cemeteries: " BECKY: Yes, it does! "A spokeswoman for the (Israeli) authority, Osnat Goaz, would not comment when asked if Muslim authorities were consulted about the dig. Construction on former Jewish, Christian and Muslim cemeteries goes on daily in Israel, after the proper removal of the tombs, Goaz said. The bones are then reburied, she said." BECKY: I don't know if this is a "Zionist" attitude. But it is certainly the Israeli Govt.'s attitude AND practice! Perhaps this article can shed some light on Arab/Islamic attitudes about Jewish cemeteries: "On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement. Read the entire article at: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php
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"t's obvious the story of desecrating the Muslim graves in Deir Yassin is fabrication
by another Zionist lie
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 12:10 PM
It is no such thing. Without visiting the site, we have no way to tell for sure. Two accounts differ. Logic dictates that we must give them equal weight unless and untl we visit the site and see for ourselves. But let's not get distracted from the actual massacre. It happened. Even Ziionists admit that. There is some question as to how many actually died. But that those who did are dead is not in question. And remember, this was only one massacre out of many: http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Harbinger/harbinger18.htm
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open-minded vs. empty-headed
by gehrig
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 12:44 PM
nessie: "Without visiting the site, we have no way to tell for sure. Two accounts differ. Logic dictates that we must give them equal weight unless and untl we visit the site and see for ourselves."
And until I actually go there, I must give equal weight to the idea that the moon is made of rock and cottage cheese.
And to think that nessie lectures _other_ people on their "bunk logic."
@%<
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"the moon"
by an insult to your intelligence
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 2:58 PM
This is an invalid analogy. We have more than one eye witness accounts to what the moon is made of. They agree.
Accounts of what happened to the Deir Yassin graveyard do not agree.
Everyone agrees there was a massacre, though. Maybe that's why the Zionist propaganda wants you to think about the graveyard instead. Maybe they think that you're stupid enough to believe the massacre wasn't really that bad because after all, because after all, they didn't desecrate any graves while they were at it.
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"I've visited the site and can vouch for BJ's claim."
by not good enough
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 3:42 PM
This guy cannot in any way, shape or form be considered a credible witness.
>Yeah, but the tally was in the 110-120 area, not almost double that as you (pl.) are fond of trumpeting ad infinitum.
Since the graveyard that doesn't serve to sufficiently distract you, next they try quibbling over how many died in the massacre. How predictable they are.
Remember when they said there was no massacre at Jenin because the claim the 500 people died was inflated. It was only 52. As if "only" fifty two murders don't constitute an a massacre.
Let's compare that to the greatest massacre in human history, the Holocaust. How many deaths does it take to be considered "the" Holocaust? When anti-Semites try to deflate the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust, the Zionist propaganda mill screams blue, bloody murder, as well they should. But calling six million dead Jews "the" Holocaust, when the camps alone killed 13 million human beings, and the bulk of the deaths didn't even happen in camps, is just as bogus a deflation as it is to call 52 dead not a massacre.
These kind of number games are a standard Zionist trick. They use them a lot. Quibbles over how many people constitute a "Holocaust" and how many people constitute a "massacre" both miss the point. A smaller massacre is less evil than a larger massacre. Same goes for holocausts. A massacre is a massacre is a massacre. The Zionist propaganda mill must think you are idiots if they really believe you will think better of them if think that they "only" killed 110-120 people in Deir Yassin. This is an insult to more than just your intelligence. It's an insult to your sense of right and wrong. A massacre is a massacre is a massacre. The people who commit them are evil. These people are no different than the men who committed the massacres at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee. Their motives were even the same, to steal land from ndigenous people. Zionism is a land grab, nothing more, nothing less. They talk about their higher purpose, but so did the US Cavalry. So what? Talk's cheap. A land grab is a land grab is a land grab, and massacres make them happen. Small massacres are no less evil than big ones. They're just cheaper to carry out, that's all. Ammo costs money.
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The truth prevails in spite of all
by Scapegoated Jew
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 4:27 PM
EDITORS: I'm not dumb; I realize I'm being discriminated against due to your friend's ('Sheepdog') absence since June 12, but I'm not about to bow down to the pressure you're applying to me. I came to this site with the best intentions and started with a friendly attitude as attested to in the email I sent you way back. In return you threatened to "autoblock" me permanently as you were addressing 'Sheepdog'. If you believe he left on my account, too bad. I don't feel guilty in the least. Nor am I sorry that a person who liberally bandies around the slur "zionazi" is missing.
=======================================
BJ: "It's obvious the story of desecrating the Muslim graves in Deir Yassin is fabrication"
'nessie' the Jew hating liar: "It is no such thing. Without visiting the site, we have no way to tell for sure. nyah nagh ngah "
I've visited the site and can vouch for BJ's claim. Case closed.
'nessie' the Jew hating liar: "But let's not get distracted from the actual massacre. It happened. Even Zionists admit that."
That's bunk logic. Zionists could admit to a massacre based on inadequate evidence because they didn't know better. Presently we know better. The warfare there was a fierce battle between Zionist forces and local Arab + Iraqi forces.
'nessie' the Jew hating liar: "There is some question as to how many actually died. nyah nyah "
Yeah, but the tally was in the 110-120 area, not almost double that as you (pl.) are fond of trumpeting ad infinitum.
*** Note how pathetic 'nessie' is, as proven by his equally pathetic rejection of the witness evidence I've provided. I've pulled the rug from under his arguent and now he's weeping like a toddler in nursery school.
- the tally [of Arab casualties] was in the 110-120 area, not almost double that as you (pl.) are fond of trumpeting ad infinitum.
'nessie' the Jew hater: "Since the graveyard that doesn't serve to sufficiently distract you, next they try quibbling over how many died in the massacre. How predictable they are nagh ngah ngah"
Only the revisionist historians quoted by 'nessie' and his ilk still insist on a figure beyond 120. Ask yourselves why 'nessie' insists on clinging to a disproved figure. He's uninterested in truth. In his despair he brings the Holocaust into the subkect. Not working.
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one little two little
by three little massacres
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 4:30 PM
This guy cannot in any way, shape or form be considered a credible witness.
An ad hominim is not a rebuttal. Do I really need to remind you of that, Nessie? I would have thought you'd know by now. Produce an eyewitness that says something different.. Until then, he's a credible witness.
Remember when they said there was no massacre at Jenin because the claim the 500 people died was inflated. It was only 52. As if "only" fifty two murders don't constitute an a massacre.
Semantics. In a language that descibes a basketball victory as a massacre, what can we expect? From dictionary.com;
Massacre:The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
is 52 a large number? Thats a very subjective question. 52 cats in a house is a large number of cats. But a town of 52 would be considered miniscule. Numbers are clearly realtive. Were the people of Jenin slaughtered indiscriminately and cruelly? Absolutely not. They died in a battle in a war. So, no, I wouldn't call it a massacre.
A smaller massacre is less evil than a larger massacre. Same goes for holocausts. A massacre is a massacre is a massacre.
Except when its part of a war. I believe 26 Israelis were killed in Jenin- was that a massacre, too? More Jews massacred by the palestinians....
Zionism is a land grab, nothing more, nothing less.
Zionism is the right of the JEWISH PEOPLE TO SELF DETERMINATION IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. We keep telling you that. It doesn't seem to sink in. Perhaps if it were spay painted across your window, it would begin to sink in.
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"three little massacres"
by moral revulsion
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 7:39 PM
Only scum make light of massacres. >An ad hominim is not a rebuttal. It's not an ad hominem. It called "impeaching the witness." It's a standard procedure when the credibility of a witness is at issue. It refutes the argumentum ad verecundiam argument that he made. The essence of this logical fallacy is the alleged expertise of the witness. In this case, witnesses also disagree. That makes it an argumentum ad verecundiam on two counts. His own "expertise" is a unsubstantiated allegation. He presents no evidence whatsoever that he even *was* an eye witness, let alone that he's telling the truth. He simply expects us to take him at his word. No Zionist should ever be taken at their word about anything, especially about stuff that makes Zionists look bad, or for that matter about stuff that makes Zionists look good. It's like taking a Nazi's word about the Holocaust. No matter what he says, it's simply less than credible. He not a less than credible witness because he is him. He is a less than credible witness because he's a Zionist. To be credible, a witness most be objective. No Zionist is objective about this issue. Besides, we've all seen, right here in Indymedia, what callous disregard for the truth that Zionists display. They never hesitate to lie if they think it will further their cause. They even impersonate other people. They are not trustworthy. Without evidence, only a fool would take a Zionist at his word. >is 52 a large number? Thats a very subjective question . . .So, no, I wouldn't call it a massacre. See, what'd I tell you. Now they're trying to make you believe Jenin was not a massacre because "only" 52 died. Moral revulsion is the only valid response. They haven't even proved it was "only" 52. The just stated it and expected us to believe them, just as if they were a credible and objective source. > I believe 26 Israelis were killed in Jenin- was that a massacre, too? More Jews massacred by the palestinians.... Whatever you call it, it was too few dead Israelis. They were members of an invading army of racist aggressors. They deserve no more pity than the Nazis who died storming the Warsaw Ghetto. As many people like that should be killed as possible. >Zionism is the right of the JEWISH PEOPLE TO SELF DETERMINATION IN THEIR ANCIENT HOMELAND. We keep telling you that. It doesn't seem to sink in. Perhaps if it were spay painted across your window, it would begin to sink in. (1.) This is begging the question. In fact, self determination is not a "right". If it were, we would see evidence, and not just in this case, but in all cases, not just for Jews, but for all Peoples. That is clearly not the case. (2.) Self determination by ethnic groups is racist by definition. Whether that ethnic group is Jews, Aryans, Serbs, Hutus or whatever, is irrelevant. (3.) No one has an ancient homeland. Those people are dead. Living people have a homeland wherever they live. (4.) But if dead people having lived there once actually did validate a claim, Palestine was occupied long before Jews ever set eyes on it. People have lived there In fact, the Zionist claim to Palestine is based on people that some of them, though certainly not all., can claim as ancestors, having ethnically cleansed the land of Canaanites and Philistines. Even Jerusalem was built by somebody else, then stolen from them by Israelite soldiers. To say, in effect, we own this land because some dead guys killed another dead guys, 2500 years ago, so get the hell out and let us live here in peace, and expect to be taken seriously, is patently absurd.
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interesting
by charismatic megafauna
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 7:50 PM
"Living people have a homeland wherever they live."
So leave it be.
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Havi g a homeland is not the issue.
by apartheid
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 9:37 PM
Everyone who lives in Palestine has Palestine for a homeland. This includes Israelis. Israelis are Palestinians, too. The problem is that a minority of the people of Palestine have a the majority of the power and use it to oppress the majority of the people. The Zionist military controls all of Palestine, from Lebanon to the Red Sea, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean. Within the area, they enforce a rigid ethnic caste system. Jews have more rights than non Jews. Arabs, Druze and Christians who are citizens of Israel "proper" are second class citizens with fewer rights. People living in Palestine, but not in Israel "proper," have no rights.
To have a homeland, but to have no rights, is a hideous and unjust fate. There are whole generations of people who where born under the Occupation, and have never know any other life but that of a virtual prisoner. The are humiliated daily. None of the rights we take for granted do they know. At any time, they can be robbed and murdered with impunity. They can be imprisoned on a whim. Their homes can be destroyed without warning. Their livelihood taken from them at any time. They have to stand silently by while Israelis uproot trees that have been in their families for generations, and plant "Jewish" trees in their place. Their flocks can be confiscated without due process, too. And their children's bones broken for what we in America would consider petty mischief. They languish in poverty with intermittent electricity and water, while watching their Jewish neighbors drive home on Jews only roads, to their watered lawns and swimming pools. They are treated like animals. To expect them to put up with it is unreasonable.
Would you? Or would you take up arms and fight for your freedom? I know what I'd do. I'd fight. If you wouldn't, you are either a coward or a natural born slave.
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Having a homeland is a very big issue.
by Jew-free Muslim Waqf
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 10:19 PM
Everyone who lives in Palestine is not the same. Palestinians used to be only Jews, and at present they are Arabs but not Jews. Israelis aren't Palestinians. The problem is that a minority of the people of Palestine have the majority of the power of racism and use it to attempt genocide on the more reasonable majority of the people. The anti-Zionist Palestinian semi-malitias try to control all of Palestine, from Lebanon to the Red Sea, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean. They and their supporters lie that the Zionist military enforce a rigid ethnic caste system even as they try to enforce the very same thing from a Muslim perpective. At best, they would have Muslims have all the rights and Jews no rights. At worst, they'd try to commit genocide or drive out all the Jews, Druze and Christians whom they consider worse than apes and pigs. Non-Muslim people living in Palestine, but not in Israel "proper," have no rights due to official discrimination.
To have a Palestinian homeland, but to have no rights because of the radical Muslim rulership, is a hideous and unjust fate. There are whole generations of people who where born under the so-called Zionist Occupation, and have never known a better life under the Palestinian entity. They are humiliated by this entity daily. None of the rights we take for granted do they know. At any time, they can be robbed and murdered with impunity. They can be imprisoned on a whim. Their homes can be destroyed without warning. Their livelihood taken from them at any time. If the terrorists among them violently endanger Israeli lives, they have to stand silently by while Israelis uproot trees that have ostensibly been in their families for generations, and plant "Jewish" trees in their place. Their flocks can be confiscated without due process, if they act against their own entity. And their children's bones broken by their "police" for what we in America would consider petty mischief. Due to deliberate official Palestinian malice, they languish in poverty with intermittent electricity and water, while watching their Jewish Israeli neighbors drive home on Jews only roads, to their watered lawns and swimming pools. They are treated like animals by their radical Muslim government. To expect them to put up with it is unreasonable.
Would you? Or would you take up arms and fight for your freedom? I know what I'd do. I'd fight. If you wouldn't, you are either a coward or a natural born slave.
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Nessie reboots
by and attempts damage control
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 10:50 PM
Havi g a homeland is not the issue. by apartheid Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 9:37 PM
Everyone who lives in Palestine has Palestine for a homeland. Lets get on the same page. What are your boundaries for trhis mythic Palaestine? Do you include Jordan?
This includes Israelis. Israelis are Palestinians, too. No. There is no palestine anymore. Yet. The Palestinians were offered a country many times, but their leadership turned it down. there are Palestinain administered areas. I suppose you could call Gaza Palestine but nobody does.
The problem is that a minority of the people of Palestine have a the majority of the power and use it to oppress the majority of the people.
No. Jews are the majority. 80 % . The areas that are disputed should not be included in this figure. They are not part of Israel.
The Zionist military controls all of Palestine, from Lebanon to the Red Sea, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.
Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies.
Within the area, they enforce a rigid ethnic caste system.
No. Our new counsel from Israel in SF is Bedouin Are you going to be protesting at the consulate Moday? Introduce yourself to him- ask him yourself. He'll tell you whats its like to be one of 11 kids in a herding family. Introduce yourself to me, while you are there, too. Were there ever Black ambassadors from apartheid South AFrica?
Jews have more rights than non Jews.
Yes. They have the "right" to compulsory military service. Lucky them.
Arabs, Druze and Christians who are citizens of Israel "proper" are second class citizens with fewer rights.
No. Its a one person one vote democracy. Alas, in our imperfect world, it is an imperfect democracy. However, its better than the regional alternatives.
People living in Palestine, but not in Israel "proper," have no rights.
Just like the rest of the world. Undocumented people are not citizens. People outside your borders are not citizens.
To have a homeland, but to have no rights, is a hideous and unjust fate.
Perhaps there leadership should have accepted a homeland when it was offered. in 1937. In 1948...and over and over again. Perhaps that would ave been the better move than holding out for what was behind Curtain B.
There are whole generations of people who where born under the Occupation, and have never know any other life but that of a virtual prisoner.
The yars between 1967 and 1994, when Israel relinquished much control to the PA were a golden era for the Palestinian people. ISrael built hospitals, schools, and stadiums. Literacy increased. Mortailty , especially infant mortality decreased. Dramatically. The economy was doing well. After 1994, Arafat exploited his people and siphoned off their money.
. The are humiliated daily.
Going into the New York Public Research Library a few months ago, I was searched at gunpoint. It was bizarre, but not humilitating. Parking at the Jewish Community Center in SF, I had my car searched. It was bizarre, but not humiliating. There are security precautions a government takes when it feels it is under attack. Yeah, it sucks. Its inconvienent. It will stop when there is peace in the land. You know, there were no checkpoints until the itnifada.
None of the rights we take for granted do they know. At any time, they can be robbed and murdered with impunity.
Generally by their own. Did you know 1/3 of the murders in Gaza were honor killings?
They have to stand silently by while Israelis uproot trees that have been in their families for generations, and plant "Jewish" trees in their place.
.Uh-on what palnet do trees have religion? What makes a tree Jewish? Are they circumsized? Bar mitzvahed? Where does this statement come from?
.... They are treated like animals. To expect them to put up with it is unreasonable.
Would you?
I would be a voice for peace. I would teach the children to work for peace. I would read to them the words of King and Gandhi. I would keep them from the path of violence and self destruction.
Or would you take up arms and fight for your freedom?
If I were to take up arms to fight, I would never target innocents- women, children... I might go for military installations, or for infrastructure. .
I know what I'd do. I'd fight. If you wouldn't, you are either a coward or a natural born slave
Would you target a grandmother holding her granchild'schild's hand at a bus stop? Would you target a 16 year old boy eating falafel on vacation?Or kids waiting in line at a disco? If you do, you are either a coward or just plain evil.
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one person one vote
by charismatic megafauna
Saturday, Jul. 01, 2006 at 11:02 PM
"No. Its a one person one vote democracy."
And, might I add, using propotional representation...they could have easily implemented a "winner take all" system like we have here in the US, and had the Jewish voice be the only ruling voice, but there is dedication to having the minorities have their say.
Just to pre-empt what Nessie is about to say...the people in the territories aren't part of this system, no, because Israel is in the middle of disengagement, and they can have their own government.
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"Palestinians used to be only Jews"
by another Zionist lie
Sunday, Jul. 02, 2006 at 9:15 AM
They used to be Canaanites and Philistines. Before that, they were these guy: http://www.sfimc.net/news/2003/08/1637599_comment.php#1637601 But whoever they were, they're dead. Living people have no right to throw other people out of their homes and/or kill them because anything dead people did thousands of years ago. It's a bogus excuse for a land grab.
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