.



The Left and the Israel Lobby

by Joseph Anderson


There have been prominent responses to the recent debate over the influence of the Israel lobby sparked by the article, “The Israel Lobby,” by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, which was recently published in the London Review of Books. Some – predictably – condemn any attempt to raise the issue as “anti-Semitic” – metaphorically screaming, “Israel lobby? What Israel lobby?” This is arguably the largest lobby based in D.C. In fact, one might somehow surmise its power by the sheer marshalling of vehemence and overwhelming forces with which its power is denied.

The very people who, on the one hand, insist that there is no proof of the Israel lobby’s power, or say that it’s too difficult to study in Washington’s overall political environment, on the other hand, typically attack anyone as “anti-Semitic” who attempts to conduct the very research and analysis whose study could provide such proof.

One has not been allowed even to raise the very question about the Israel lobby (now finally broached in the establishment press by Mearsheimer & Walt), let alone study and investigate it, without being labeled, slurred or at least insinuated as being “anti-Semitic.” When these sharp attacks come from iconic and otherwise authoritative leftist intellectuals, I call it not only unethical and morally negligent (the Israel lobby being one of the most significant obstacles to justice for the Palestinians), but downright anti-intellectual. Indeed, they typically refuse to debate the issue publicly, but rather merely make one-sided strawman potshots and dismissals.

Other prominent progressives – including (sometimes closeted) Zionist apologists on the Left (headed by Left guru Noam Chomsky) – now employ a more sophisticated approach. Instead of denying the existence of the Israel lobby altogether or calling others “anti-Semitic” (or like Stephen Zunes’ fallback attack, saying it “parallels anti-Semitism,” in effect attacking questioners as thinking like anti-Semites), they admit to the existence of the Lobby, but dismiss it as inconsequential.

(I never understood the apparent proclivity of many in the Left not to be able to hold more than one factor in their minds at the same time: it, indeed, seems to be always either-or, instead of possibly both-and.)

“The Lobby is not the real problem,” they say; thus saying that progressives should just completely ignore it – but after that attempt at dissuasion, if you don’t, you must be anti-Semitic. But an analysis of these dissuaders’ arguments shows that they are rife with contradictions and, ultimately, just as analytically unpersuasive as the cruder ravings from their colleagues on the Right.

Unfortunately typical of these leftist minimizers of the Lobby is Norman Finkelstein, whom this writer otherwise greatly respects, but whose recent article entitled, "It's Not Either/Or: The Israel Lobby," appeared in the May Day, 2006, issue of Counterpunch. In fact, before a private respectful email debate with this writer, Finkelstein’s position, as I perceived it, was, indeed, much more like the old Chomsky line of absolute dismissal of the Lobby. But, the critical contradictions remaining in Finkelstein’s position still jump out almost immediately to examined analysis.

For example, Finkelstein asserts that, “[a]part from the Israel-Palestine conflict, fundamental U.S. policy in the Middle East hasn't been affected by the Lobby.” But in the very same paragraph, he concedes that, “the alliance with Israel has abetted the most truculent U.S. policies…. The spectrum of U.S. policy differences might be narrow, but in terms of impact on the real lives of real people in the Arab world these differences are probably [probably?] meaningful, the Israeli influence making things worse.” And later in the same article, he admits that, “[i]n terms of alienating the Arab world, [the U.S.] had something to lose” by associating itself with Israel.

In an attempt to resolve the inconsistency of the above (no doubt obvious even to him), Finkelstein attempts to make a distinction between U.S. foreign policy with regard to the Palestinian issue, and that relating to “elsewhere in the Middle East.” However, these issues cannot be so cleanly separated. Because of the reaction (which Finkelstein admits is one of alienation to America) of much of the Arab populace to the mistreatment of the Palestinians, U.S. foreign policy with respect to Palestine inevitably impacts its relations with all other Middle Eastern countries.

The longer the Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes unresolved with no justice for the Palestinians (millions held stateless and others under ‘Jim Crow’), and the more various regimes in the Middle East are seen as having obeisance to U.S. pressures, the greater the movement toward popular (especially Islamic-based) resistance to those regimes. U.S. policymakers surely must know this.

Finkelstein essentially concedes the above when he presents his next argument for minimizing the importance of the Lobby: the U.S. relationship with Israel does affect the U.S. relationship with the remainder of the Middle East after all, but that’s what the U.S. wants. Israel, by this reasoning, is merely a proxy for the United States: it is the puppet, and the U.S. makes it dance.

The difficulty with this argument is that puppets don’t behave the way Israel does. The Israel lobby doesn’t fall all over itself trying to demonstrate to American politicians that Israel is an obedient and useful lackey. Quite the contrary: the Lobby puts its vast resources and constituent mobilizations into bullying and threatening these very same politicians in order to get its way. And woe unto any politician who doesn't comply.

But why would the Lobby – if Israel were indeed the essential tool of American imperialism that Finkelstein, et al., claim – need to be so aggressively threatening? That would only make sense if there were actually a genuine danger that many American politicians – absent those formidable and unignorable threats – might conclude that, in fact, Israel is not a very useful, let alone prerequisite proxy. (After all, foreign proxies are supposed to be doing our fighting there for us: we just supply any necessary arms, technical assistance and satellite reconnaissance.) Which in turn begs the question – how has Israel really served, if arguably at all, rather than upset, U.S. interests?

The first claim that is often made is that Israel helps the U.S. to create political instability in the Middle East, thereby enabling U.S. dominance of the region. The instability is obvious (even if its benefit to the U.S. is a matter of debate).

There is also the inane counterclaim to any assertions of the power of the Israel Lobby that, absent the Lobby, U.S. foreign policy in the “Third World” would still be nefariously imperialist. Well, duh-uhh…!: The answer is of course it would! The Israel lobby doesn’t oppose the imperialist interests of the U.S. in the Middle East; rather, it changes how the U.S. exercises those interests.

However, there is nothing magical about Israel in this respect. When so desired, the U.S. has always seemed to be able to manage to foster domestic instability in almost every Third World country or region of the globe without first setting up or sponsoring the creation of a non-native, apartheid state like Israel. Even absent Israel, the Middle East would be no exception. There is no great love between various regimes ruling Middle Eastern countries; any imperialist worth the name would find a way to continually exploit these differences.

The second claim, which is a specious fallback refinement of the above, is that while, yes, other countries could, theoretically, serve as tools of U.S. imperialism in the region, Israel is “unique and irreplaceable.” Because Israel is essentially a Western country, this argument goes, it will therefore always be loyal to the U.S.; this, in contrast to other regimes that the U.S. props up, only to see them overthrown by popular – and anti-American – uprisings, such as against the Shah in Iran. Israel is therefore, as Finkelstein put it, “the only stable and secure base for projecting U.S. power in this region.”

However, Western sponsorship and a Western cultural identity do not necessarily guarantee unwavering loyalty and subservience to the U.S. Ask the British! They originally thought that Israel’s founders would never turn Zionist guns and bombs on them. Or ask the surviving sailors of the USS Liberty. In fact, it is that very "Western" orientation of Israel – and its accompanying colonialist outlook toward the "inferior peoples" of the Middle East – that drives its own imperialist ambitions. Israel, with the help of the Israel lobby, obviously wants to dominate the region and, if that’s accomplished, that means that Israel’s regional strategic interests may then significantly diverge from those of the U.S.

This doesn’t mean that Israel will ever be directly hostile to the U.S. For example, Europe and Japan are firmly in the Western camp, and are certainly not anti-American by any reasonable stretch of the imagination, and yet they nevertheless pursue their own economic and strategic interests. In many respects, they are rivals to U.S. imperial hegemony. Israel, should it succeed in unequivocally dominating the Middle East as it clearly wishes to do, could develop in the same direction. In the meantime, as Finkelstein points out, the Lobby significantly raises the point at which the "until and unless" threshold of Israel becoming a major liability is reached. Israel wasn’t eternally bound to the British empire after all: it found a new close ally. As a result, it is hardly a mere proxy (much less an irreplaceable one); rather, its relationship to the U.S. is far more complex.

It is this complexity that the minimizers of the Israel Lobby gloss over. They persist in framing the Lobby strictly as acting on behalf of an entirely external entity, wholly foreign to the U.S. economic and political establishment, and thus they attempt to persuade the Left that such a separate entity couldn’t possibly convince an imperialist superpower like the United States to act against its own interests. However, this is a ridiculous oversimplification, demonstrating a profound lack of understanding about how our system of government works.

In reality, the Israel lobby simultaneously operates both as an external interest and as internal "special" interest, represented within a faction of the U.S. ruling class and establishment that wishes to see the United States pursue an unequivocally Israelocentric foreign policy in the Middle East. This faction or special interest commands enormous power due to its domestic political (especially, voter) base: something that no other external, third-party interests possess the ability to do. As such, Israel and its American lobby represent a particular strain of American imperialism.

However, another faction has come to fore, and the debate breaking out in the mainstream represents a clash of viewpoints between these factions: the unequivocally Israelocentric faction (currently represented by the Bush administration) and the non-unequivocally-Israelocentric faction (represented by the Mearsheimer-Walt paper and implicitly articulated by Brzezinski). As the geopolitical cost and the (in part) Israelocentric strategy failure of the war in Iraq grows greater, this domestic intra-imperialist clash of strategies have become visible to the public. What the Mearsheimer & Walt paper is saying is that, under the circumstances, we need to be able to debate this strategy, if not yet in the Congress, at least in the public and our other institutions.

Some may ask why progressives should care whether various internal factions within the ruling class are fighting with each other. Ironically, Finkelstein answered this question himself: it is because these differences have an "impact on the real lives of real people in the Arab world [and many millions of Palestinians alone]..., the Israeli influence making things worse." The Israel Lobby, as he put it, "makes a huge and baneful difference." It is therefore incumbent upon all those who seek peace and justice in the Middle East to combat that baneful influence.


__________________________________________________________________________________

Joseph Anderson is a resident of Berkeley, CA, an occasional contributing political essayist to various
publications, a local media monitor, and a grassroots progressive political activist.


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/June06/Anderson08.htm


.

This ego driven wack job has spammed his trash all over the indy world!

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341259.shtml

Watch JA fall apart and reveal his true racism;

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/02/28/17242261.php#1724408

According to Lobby Watch, these are the largest and most powerful lobbies in America, along with their expenditures: Where's AIPAC on the list?

Chamber of Commerce for the U.S.A. $204,614,680
Altria Group Inc $101,220,000
General Electric Co. $94,130,000
American Medical Association $92,560,000
Northrop Grumman Corp. $83,405,691
Edison Electric Institute $82,866,628
Verizon Communications Inc. $81,870,000
Business Roundtable $80,380,000
American Hospital Association & State Affiliates $79,205,772
Pharmaceutical Research & Manufacturers of America $72,720,000
National Association of Realtors $68,810,000
ExxonMobil Corp. $59,672,742
SBC Communications Inc. $58,035,037
Freddie Mac - Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation $57,740,000
Boeing Co. $57,258,310
Lockheed Martin $55,373,840
AT&T Corp. $53,349,499
Fannie Mae (Federal National Mortgage Association) $50,777,000
Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association and state affiliates $48,790,000
General Motors Corp. $48,260,000
American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) $47,790,000

This article has already been discussed elsewhere at length. Please report it as a double post.

and lies, like they have already started to do here.

They really, really, really don't want us to discuss the Lobby because they know that it's their Achilles heel.

Rabid anti-Zionist definition of spam = truth and anything they don't like reading.

Rabid anti-Zionist definition of a lie = anything provable via reliable sources.

If they "really, really, really didn't want us to discuss the Lobby", they would have demanded the other thread be hidden as well.

'nessie' = arch-purveyor of bunk logic.

Re Lobby Watch. "Where's AIPAC on the list?"

Now, do you think a _zionist_ or an anti-zionist posted the lobby list above? Do you think that a _zionist_ would ever tell the truth, the whole truth, or not torture or distort it? Besides "Lobby Watch" ranks _BUSINESS_ firms and organizations, not purely special political interest groups. AIPAC is not a BUSINESS firm or business organization. Besides, as Jeffrey Blankfort points out, "It is important to note that the Israel lobby is much more than AIPAC."

See "Who Makes up the Lobby?": http://www.leftcurve.org/LC27WebPages/IsraelLobby.html

We see what happens to two esteemed establishment professors, from Harvard and the University of Chicago, for daring to study the Israel lobby. I wonder what would happen to the people at "Lobby Watch" if they did.

For more on AIPAC see

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0012776.html

or just google aipac + blankfort

or "israel lobby" + blankfort

for much more information.

They really, really, really work hard to distract you from the truth. They're trying to drown out the signal of the truth with their lies and obfuscation. It's a trick. Don''t fall for it.

nessie, whining: "They really, really, really work hard to distract you from the truth. They're trying to drown out the signal of the truth with their lies and obfuscation. It's a trick. Don''t fall for it."

There's nessie, whining again that he doesn't have total mind-control over the reader, and that he can't simply program you to ignore those unapproved, unnessie-esque thoughts that those evil miscreants Not With The Program keep trying to inject into the discussion.

Really, folks, listen to nessie. And nobody else. He will tell you everything you need to think. He is the self-described "signal of truth."

@%<

Besides "Lobby Watch" ranks _BUSINESS_ firms and organizations, not purely special political interest groups...

And yet the Asbestos Study Group is on the list.
Can you get any more *special * than that?

How about the Trial Lawyers Association?

How about the Bond Market Association?

>>Besides "Lobby Watch" ranks _BUSINESS_ firms and organizations, not purely special political interest groups...


Tia: And yet the Asbestos Study Group is on the list.
Can you get any more *special * than that?

Hmm, I _wonder_ what kind of BUSINESSES (asbestos removal) they represent?


Tia: How about the Trial Lawyers Association?

Hmm, I _wonder_ what kind of BUSINESS (law) firms they represent?


Tia: How about the Bond Market Association?

Hmm, I _wonder_ what kind of BUSINESS (brokerage) firms they represent?

an ad hominem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject. He proves my point by trying it again. It's a trick. Don't fall for it. Stay focused.

Fine. How about the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare? What business do they represent?
Or the Seniors coalition? What business do they represent?

And by the way, the Asbestos Study group has nothing to do with asbestos removal- its a coalition of nasty big companies that have joined together with one goal in mind- to squash the rights of victims of asbestos related diseases.

It includes such diverse organizations as include Halliburton, Honeywell, Pfizer, Viacom and General Motors.

And you Nessie, are the worst obstacle to focused discussion with your constant interuptions. You are like a little kid "Pay attention to me! Pay attention to me!"

Ever watch Firefly, Nessie?

See what I mean? We hit nerve.

Yes, I'm sure the Asbestos Study Group (a PR name) is just a bunch of rag-tag Berkeley leftists who managed to scrape together $21,940,000 dollars to lobby the Congress out of the altruism of their pure hearts toward (so to speak) their "fellow man".

Huh?
The Asbestos study group is a diverse assortments of folk who are lobbying Congress (unsucessfully, since they are at odds with the Trial Lawyers Association). They are fighting to eliminate the right of people suffering from asbestos related diseases to sue the manufacturers of such products. It has nothing to do with Israel, Zionists, or the price of milk, athough I suspect you conspiracy theorists could find away to connect it, if you really tried. (where's TW when you need him?)

Nessie- you've been following me all over the country. Oh, gee (embarrasssed shuffling), what can I say?
Guess I hit a nerve? Must of , if you are doing so much damage control. If you want to play with me, dear, why can't we do it in the neighborhood?

Oh, I forgot. You don't play with racists.

on the ASG: "The Asbestos study group is a diverse assortments of folk... They are fighting to eliminate the right of people suffering from asbestos related diseases to sue the manufacturers of such products."

Could the ASG be a trade association of _businesses / manufacturers_? Huh, tia?


on the ASG: "It has nothing to do with Israel, Zionists, or the price of milk, athough I suspect you conspiracy theorists could find away to connect it, if you really tried. (where's TW when you need him?)"

Actually, it was our favorite _Zionist_ -- tia -- who was trying to connect the issue, not her nemesis TW. (See: by tia, Monday, Jun. 19, 2006 at 9:53 PM.) Tia doesn't know the difference between a corporate business lobby or a trade lobby association and a purely political lobby. Now we know who posted the list and tried to make the connection in the first place. Ssswwwinnng-and-a-miss, tia!

pwd, does that make tia a "conspiracy theorist" or a conspirator?

Tia: Asbestos study group reminds me of Vonnegut's Wampeters, Foma & Granfalloons,,, its not a trade association- these folk have joined together soley for one purpose- to "reform" asbestos litigation.

And the American Association of Retired People- what business are they? How about the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare? What business do they represent?
Or the Seniors coalition? What business or trade do they represent?

Actually, it was our favorite _Zionist_ -- tia -- who was trying to connect the issue, not her nemesis TW. (See: by tia, Monday, Jun. 19, 2006 at 9:53 PM.)


Tia: Awwww...Now I'm the favorite? But Megafauna is so much more articulate than me, and much much cuter, too.....
Try to follow , dearest. I was showing that not all mentioned on the list were businesses.

See what I mean? We hit a nerve. The Lobby is their Achilles heel. They've known it all along. Now they know we know it. No wonder they're freaking out.

And the American Association of Retired People- what business are they? How about the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare? What business do they represent?
Or the Seniors coalition? What business or trade do they represent?

The pro-Israel Lobby is just like any other lobby; it has no special influence or place in US politics.
The power of the groups backing the Israel lobby are no more powerful than other influential pressure groups
The Lobby’s agenda succeeds because it coincides with the interests of the dominant powers and interests of the US State
The Lobby’s weakness is demonstrated by the fact that Israel is ‘merely a tool’ of US empire building to be used when needed and otherwise marginalized.
The major forces shaping US Middle East policy are “big oil” and the “military-industrial complex”, neither of which is connected to the pro-Israel lobby.
The interests of the US generally coincide with the interests of Israel
The Iraq War, the threats to Syria and Iran are primarily a product of “oil interests” and the “military-industrial complex” and not the role of the pro-Israel lobby or its collaborators in the Pentagon and other government agencies.

Spammer is back and forging other peoples names

I prefer a fat pork sausage squarely up my rectum.

Obscene false posting? Must mean Toady is back.

Snotty-Nosed Zionist ("harpist"): "And the American Association of Retired People- what business are they? How about the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare? What business do they represent? Or the Seniors coalition? What business or trade do they represent? What about this? What about that? What about the other thing? What about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?"


good question: as Jeffrey Blankfort points out, "It is important to note that the Israel lobby is MUCH more than AIPAC."

(See "Who Makes up the Lobby?": http://www.leftcurve.org/LC27WebPages/IsraelLobby.html)


And there Blankfort didn't even yet mention JINSA (the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs), a little known neo-con think tank.

"JINSA's actual origins are as murky as the activities it carries out, but the organization that [Richard] Perle established together with Max Kampelman, "an arms control negotiator whose old law firm is a U.S. agent for Israeli government military interests," was the precursor of the more well-known Project for a New American Century [PNAC] and the well from which has emerged the collection of Jewish neo-cons and their fellow travelers, whose signatures and thumb prints are all over America's current adventure in Iraq, as well as its threats against Syria and Iran. ...Other than the Wall Street Journal article in 1992, JINSA's existence was virtually unknown even to the political left until an article by Jason Vest appeared in the Nation in September, 2002."

(See: http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/WarForIsrael.html)

Isn't it cute how he responds to "Toady" now?

Looky here. Big day for us, locally. Know your facts- thats what Toady's trying to distract you from.

MECA has the lowest rating on "guidestar"- the charity rating website. The organization spends over $990,000 each year on salaries and administarive costs- well above what you'd expect from an organization of their size. Donations to MECA line pockets.....

If AIPAC is just a "toothless tiger", then you were just baiting all along.

"Zionists, you've proved your point: by they can't handle the truth! "

You can't have it both ways, clown face. The "Zionists" have been claiming all along that AIPAC isn't among the most powerful lobbies.

Time to administer your meds.

must be Toady. typical anti-zionist, lying and false posting

must be Toady-typical anti-zionist, a liar and false poster.

CounterPunch

Weekend Edition
June 16/18, 2006

"Its Origins and Growth
The Power of the Israel Lobby"

By KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON
Former CIA analysts

http://counterpunch.org/christison06162006.html

You'd better cease and desist unless you want me to start harrassing your antisemitic ass on Indybay in the same manner you do here or even forge you here.

You won't gag us. You won't beak us; we'll break you.

I'm making good on my threat - I've started spamming embarrassing stuff to Indybay with your nym on it. You still have some time left to come to your senses before all hell breaks loose.

I like men and young boys. I recently joined NAMBLA. I am a card carrying pedophile!

Let us all post some news items to Indybay, either forged with toady's nym to them or with our usual names/nyms, if 'toady' continues forging and spamming from this point on. How 'bout it?

I have decided to spam indybay and you should all do the same. Even though they promptly hide my spam, I feel better for trashing their website.

P.S. I take it up the ass.

How come you don't autoblock anymore? Care to explain this curiosity to us?

Tia: "MECA has the lowest rating on "guidestar"- the charity rating website. The organization spends over $990,000 each year on salaries and administarive costs- well above what you'd expect from an organization of their size. Donations to MECA line pockets....."

So, according to Tia, AIPAC is very _low_ on the list of money (it's just scrimping by) and MECA is very _high_ on the list of money (lavished on themselves, of course).

'Yeah', those MECA people all drive to work from their Marin Country hills manions in their new fully-loaded Mercedes, BMWs and Jaguars, while sporting the latest fur capes from the the Champs-Elysées. Their main office suite is located on one of the top floors of the Trans-America Pyramid in San Francisco (with a small branch office in liberal Berkeley). You can often find them wining and dining at their regular table at Chez Panisse in Berkeley, Fleur de Lys or Farallon in San Francisco, or The French Laundry or Domaine Chandon in Napa Valley. And they all have next-door to each other summer cottages in the Malibu Colony.

"So, according to Tia, AIPAC is very _low_ on the list of money (it's just scrimping by) and MECA is very _high_ on the list of money (lavished on themselves, of course). "

This is just another of Toady's stunts. He's attributing to Tia exactly the oposite of what she claimed. We've already seen this caper from 'toady'. Nothing to get worked up over.

Lengthy black teenaged boys are my favorite.

Yeah', those MECA people all drive to work from their Marin Country hills manion


Nah. Barbara is Berkeley, all the way. But yes, Alison Weir has a lovely home in Sausilito, in Marin county. Doing well by doing good. Yep.

There they go again, still trying to distract your attention from the Lobby, with ad hominems. They are sooooooo predictable.

There he goes again, still trying to distract your attention from a related topic he has no rebuttals to offer for.

"There they go again"

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal.

No, Nessie- the discussion was hijacked by Toady, in his initimable style, or lack thereof.
Now we are discussing a so called charity that takes in two million dollarsa year, yet allocates nearly one million for salaries and administrative costs.
Is that a charity you'd donate to?

Are you coming today, Nessie?
Stop by and say hi.
Toady, if you can't keep it clean, you stay away from me.

Seams like 'toady' overplayed his hand this time round. I've found one of his new weak spots. And I didn't even need to spam LA-IMC in the process. Who would have thought he wouldn't autoblock me anymore?

zionist: "Alison Weir has a lovely home in Sausilito, in Marin county."

It might surprise people to know that not everyone living in Marin county (or Suasalito) is rich. As even in parts of Malibu, some peope bought their homes _decades_ ago, when one didn't have to be rich to buy a nice, but modest home somewhere in those locales.

That said, Alison Weir _doesn't_ live in Sausalito. (So much for Zionist intelliegence - in every meaning of the word.) _When_ Allison Weir (founding director of http://ifamericansknew.org) did live in Sausalito, she _didn't_ live in a house either: she lived on a modest, but pleasant, anonymous sailboat. Such boats are much smaller than the typical house in Sausalito or anywhere else. (Maybe she figured that out on the water, down narrow marina walkways far on the other side of marina fences and gates, was the relatively safest place to be from those crazy Zionists.)

Also let it be said, of course, anyone championing Palestinian human rights hardly lives a carefree life. Multiply in degree and danger the zionist knuckleheads that trash (with their idiotic diversions and childish spitting games) every article thread criticizing Israel/Zionism on LA-IMC and you can imagine what Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Alison Weir of If Americans Knew, or Dennis Bernstein of "Flashpoints", or others like them -- even Jewish -- have to put up with in death threats, vandalism, the usual knee-jerk name-calling smear jobs as "self-hating Jew" or "anti-Semitic", etc. Thankfully, in Britain, many in the public have gotten much more tired of this Zionist and Israel lobby behavior than in the U.S., and will openly say so right away.

So, when are you zionists going to start talking about how rich Jeffrey Blankfort is getting off _his_ human rights activism and the mansion _he_ lives in in San Francisco?

First off,

"_When_ Allison Weir (founding director of http://ifamericansknew.org) did live in Sausalito, she _didn't_ live in a house either: she lived on a modest, but pleasant, anonymous sailboat. Such boats are much smaller than the typical house in Sausalito or anywhere else. "

Where's the source to back up this claim, O anti-Zionist Einstein? A prodigy like you should be able to provide the evidence. Until you present such unimpeachable evidence, I'll keep on beliving she lived in a luxurious house.


"(Maybe she figured that out on the water, down narrow marina walkways far on the other side of marina fences and gates, was the relatively safest place to be from those crazy Zionists.) "

You gotta love how these anti-Zionists engage in all sorts of aggressive behavior and then assume the posture of the victimized innocents.


"Also let it be said, of course, anyone championing Palestinian human rights hardly lives a carefree life. Multiply in degree and danger the zionist knuckleheads that trash (with their idiotic diversions and childish spitting games) every article thread criticizing Israel/Zionism on LA-IMC and you can imagine what Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Alison Weir of If Americans Knew, or Dennis Bernstein of "Flashpoints", or others like them have to put up with in death threats, vandalism, the usual knee-jerk name-calling smear jobs as "self-hating Jew" or "anti-Semitic", etc. "

Seems like one anti-Zionist has switched to the old-new tack of self pity. Really hilarious.

"-- even Jewish --"

To paraphrase your friend 'nessie', a jerk is a jerk is a jerk. Religion doesn't matter. We'd be racist if we cut these Jewish anti-Zionists slack.


"Thankfully, in Britain, many in the public have gotten much more tired of this Zionist and Israel lobby behavior than in the U.S., and will openly say so right away. "

We know the UK publec is more prone to Big Oil financed anti-Israel propaganda. Maybe you should emigrate to Britain if you hate things so much in the US.

Oh ME the poor "Scapegoated Jew": "Where's the source to back up this claim, O anti-Zionist Einstein? A prodigy like you should be able to provide the evidence. Until you present such unimpeachable evidence, I'll keep on beliving she lived in a luxurious house. "

It's not my job to provide you with her address. I guess that zionist intelLIEgence just screwed up again, huh?


Oh ME the poor "Scapegoated Jew": "Seems like one anti-Zionist has switched to the old-new tack of self pity. Really hilarious. "

This from somone, a member of the most politically powerful minority in America, who calls himself "Scapegoated Jew"!

Oh, if those zionsts didn't have weapons, they'd just be a LAUGH!!

HILARIOUS is right!


Oh ME the poor "Scapegoated Jew": "Blah blah blah... Maybe you should emigrate to Britain if you hate things so much in the US. "

And if you feel so DOWNTRODDEN and SCAPEGOATED here in _America_, then maybe you can SCHLEPP your ass to some dusty desert zionist settlement camp in Israel and hold up with the rest of your rabid maniacs.

"the most politically powerful minority in America"

"Scapegoated Jew" is a conservative fundamentalist Christian?

@%<

- Where's the source to back up this claim, O anti-Zionist Einstein? A prodigy like you should be able to provide the evidence. Until you present such unimpeachable evidence, I'll keep on believing she lived in a luxurious house.

"It's not my job to provide you with her address. I guess that zionist intelLIEgence just screwed up again, huh? "

Typical anti-Zionist deflection through obfuscation. Not only Zionists know she lived in a fancy house previously.


- Seems like one anti-Zionist has switched to the old-new tack of self pity. Really hilarious.

"This from somone, a member of the most politically powerful minority in America, who calls himself "Scapegoated Jew"! "

You're diverting attention from the point I was trying to make in a manner that bares your hand. You claim to be free of Jew hatred but now it's evident where you're coming from. You were raving lies and about the horrid persecution all those anti-Zionists supposedly endure and that was what I was addressing.
However, don't blame the US Jews for the fact their voting turnout is consistently the highest while your friends stay home in droves on election days. Oh, now I remember. Nothing could ever be you guys' fault. The Joooos are too foxy for you to look inward and learn from your shortcomings.

"Oh, if those zionsts didn't have weapons, they'd just be a LAUGH!! "

Which Zionists? All US Zionists? Or only the JDO and JDL types?
If it's the latter, please remind me the last time one of those guys murdered an anti-Zionist with cold blood. I'm waiting.


- Maybe you should emigrate to Britain if you hate things so much in the US.

"And if you feel so DOWNTRODDEN and SCAPEGOATED here in _America_, then maybe you can SCHLEPP your ass to some dusty desert zionist settlement camp in Israel and hold up with the rest of your rabid maniacs."

Newsflash: in America I felt quite dandy. But here in Israel I feel kinda on the defense due to the aggression of the murderous racists that you uebermensch froth mouthedly support.
You know that many peoples have won independence in their historical homelands, but to someone like you only the Jews are forbidden from attaining self-determination and allowed to have their history in their historical homeland falsified while you lionize the Palestinians and their racist heritage. That places you in the same den with the pro-theocratic, mysoginyst, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, homophobe, anti- human rights, reactionary miscreants. I'm sure you're awefully proud of your so-called progressive self.

It's also looking like the Presbyterian Church, having their biennial General Assembly, will tomorrow officially revoke their call for a unilateral program of divestment from Israel:

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=16731&intcategoryid=4

The committee in charge of such things voted to dump the "divestment" language this weekend; tomorrow's vote makes it official.

So once again, there are two kinds of organizations in the world: those who don't vote resolutions calling for economic boycotts, sanctions, and divestiture from Israel, and those who do and -- like the Presbyterian Church -- undo them at the next available opportunity.

@%<

>>"the most politically powerful minority in America"

gehrig: ""Scapegoated Jew" is a conservative fundamentalist Christian?"

Yeah gehrig, "conservative fundamentalist Christians" are an ethnic group.

(i say, let a fool be a fool - and help 'em be one.)


As for, Oh ME the poor "Scapegoated Jew": "You know that many peoples have won independence in their historical homelands"

Yeah, maybe we should ALL reverse 2,000 years of human migration and go claim our "independence" in our ancient "historical homelands"!

As I said before, Oh, if those zionst racists just didn't have weapons, they'd just be a LAUGH!!

SCAPEGOATED JEW WRITES: "....f it's the latter, please remind me the last time one of those guys murdered an anti-Zionist with cold blood. I'm waiting."

BECKY: The last anti-Zionist I remember who got murdered in cold blood was Tom Cox of the Christian Peacemakers Team. Here is a photo of him protesting against Israel.

He went to Iraq where he was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by a fanatic Islamic fundamentalist group--- most likely aligned with the Palestinian group Hamas.

"Wrong again, zionist breath": "Yeah, maybe we should ALL reverse 2,000 years of human migration and go claim our "independence" in our ancient "historical homelands"! "

Oh ME the poor "Scapegoated Jew": "Reality check for a retard: Israel is a fait accompli and all your dumbassed ranting and historical revisionism in the Palestinians' favor won't undo it."

So, then, if you believe that might makes right -- and when dim-witted, slope-browed, slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging zionist neanderthals are morally caught in their own ridiculous corner that's what they ALWAYS FINALLY resort to grunting out -- then stop whining about the holocaust: that's what Hitler believed too with _his_ 'fait accompli'. Do zionist jews have one moral standard or TWO?

You can rattle all the ancient coins you want. They aren't morally worth the two of them that you can rub together. I know you all think you're the center of the universe, but zioinst Jews aren't the ONLY people who've, as a group migrated out in the world, that can show ancestral ancient coins.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/4093.htm

This is the figure that earned MECA only 1 star, among the lowest ratings charity navigator assigns:

Administrative Expenses $1,000,118 This includes salaries and administrative costs. It is considered unusually high for a "grassroots" organization.
Charity Navigator does "peer analysis"as well- to give consumers an idea of what similiar sized organizations are able to accomplish with the same size budget and staff. Its worth looking at.

On a scale from 1 to 100, Meca rates a 32. It has an efficiency rating of 29.5%

http://tinyurl.com/pu5e7 Good article "Berkeley Child Abuse" that details improprieties in MECA

Interesting rally in Berkeley. In spite of what the latest investigations revealed, the anti-Israel organizers of the rally sought to manipulate the group into believing that Israel deliberately targeted the family on the beach.
Anti- Zionists lie because they have to. Facts, history and curent events just don't back up their side of the story.

None of our so called "activist" friends showed up, although we had the usual variety of frothy at the mouth Israel bashers. Unlike other "emergency Alerts" called in the years gone by, the public largely ignored this one. We had a lovely and diverse crowd showing up to support the Israeli side, including a French Jew, visiting the area for the summer. His stories of the rise of anti-Semitism in France were chilling.

"And you can imagine what Barbara Lubin of MECA, or Alison Weir of If Americans Knew, or Dennis Bernstein of "Flashpoints", or others like them have to put up with in death threats, vandalism, ...."

Uh huh. And packing up last night I found I was being followed by 4 jihadis who had been laying in wait after the rally. And I'm not a "public figure".

I too think JA has returned.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT WRITES: "...and when dim-witted, slope-browed, slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging zionist neanderthals are morally caught in their own ridiculous corner that's what they ALWAYS FINALLY resort to grunting out -- then stop whining about the holocaust: that's what Hitler believed too with _his_ 'fait accompli'. Do zionist jews have one moral standard or TWO?"

BECKY: And this from someone who called ME a racist for saying (incorrectly) that I think Arabs are subhuman.
Can the OTHER anti-Zionists in this room call this cretin on his/her racism?

So if the Jews were able to build a modern nation of 9 million people in Israel, they shouldn't complain about the Nazi Holocaust because...it already happened????

What kind of weird, twisted, screwed up logic is that????

This from the same person who got me fired after TEN YEARS of reporting on homeless issues???

The coins are historic evidence of Jewish ownership of Israel which preceeds any Arab/Islamic/Palestinian presence by hundreds of years.

Even currently, the Palestinian Authority does not print its own money or stamps. That is how new it is.

There is no "Palestine" and there never really was a nation called "Palestine". It is a Roman name given by the Roman conquerer in 135 A.D.. It is as illegitimate as the "ancient Palestinian people."

There is a lot more archeological evidence of a long-time Jewish presence in Israel and Judea and Samaria than a few coins! In fact, there is no evidence of an ancient Palestinian people among those artifacts until the 7th century.

BJ: "Even currently, the Palestinian Authority does not print its own money or stamps. That is how new it is. "

There was a photo in yesterday's New York Times showing a Palestinian being paid -- very late, and a fraction of what he's owed, but that's the best Hamas can do, having brought on a deep financial crisis -- with three $100 bills.

@%<

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Yeah, maybe we should ALL reverse 2,000 years of human migration and go claim our "independence" in our ancient "historical homelands"! "

Me:
Reality check for a retard: Israel is a fait accompli and all your dumbassed ranting and historical revisionism in the Palestinians' favor won't undo it.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"So, then, if you believe that might makes right "

If I believed might makes right, I would've shared your rabid anti-Jewish pro-Palestinian stance.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"-- and when dim-witted, slope-browed, slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging zionist neanderthals are morally caught in their own ridiculous corner that's what they ALWAYS FINALLY resort to grunting out"

I painted myself into a corner only in your morbid fanatic Jew hating imagination.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"then stop whining about the holocaust: that's what Hitler believed too with _his_ 'fait accompli'. Do zionist jews have one moral standard or TWO? "

And you have the nerve to maintain that the Palis -- especially the pro-Nazi ones -- still have a right to whine about the Nakba or every miniscule loss they endure?

Antisemitic dumbass:
"You can rattle all the ancient coins you want. They aren't morally worth the two of them that you can rub together. I know you all think you're the center of the universe, but zioinst Jews aren't the ONLY people who've, as a group migrated out in the world, that can show ancestral ancient coins."

(a) As far as many can tell, it's the Palis that believe their topic should be the center of every international discussion on whatever topic, so much so that they constantly hijack every symposium or convention on human rights and the like. Zioinst Jews simply don't do that as they aren't remotely as arrogant.
(b) Your beloved Palestinians can't show even one ancestral ancient coin or other relic for that matter.

Self-Delusions of Grandeur Raving Paranoiac Tia: "Uh huh. And packing up last night I found I was being followed by 4 jihadis who had been laying in wait after the rally. And I'm not a "public figure"."

Becky: "The coins are historic evidence of Jewish ownership of Israel"

No ethnic group, by virtue of their _ancient religious ancestors_ retains perpetual ownership to that land. That's a ridiculous idea that only a bunch of nutty racist Zionists (Jewish & later Chrstian white-supremacists) could come up with (supported by Western imperialism).

By the way, tell your nutty 'sister' Tia, that if she doesn't want to give to MECA, then _don't_. Somehow, I don't think that all her bashing blather is going to take MECA down.

Becky Johnson: "This from the same person who got me fired after TEN YEARS of reporting on homeless issues???"

Ranting anti-Israel:
"No ethnic group, by virtue of their _ancient religious ancestors_ retains perpetual ownership to that land. That's a ridiculous idea that only a bunch of nutty racist Zionists (Jewish & later Chrstian white-supremacists) could come up with (supported by Western imperialism). "

The only few grave problems to your cause are that
(1) none of the occupying powers starting from the Romans, going through the ancient Arabs from what's today Saudi Arabia and up to the British had any legitimate property rights in the land of Israel. (2) The Jews never relinquished their claim to this land since the loss of independence, and (3) notwithstanding popular misconceptions, there was always a Jewish presence there.

Ranting anti-Israel:
"Jewish white-supremacists"

Jews come in all skin complexions. 57% of Israeli Jews are non-Ashkenazi; quite a few Ashkenazi Jews are rather darked skinned while the reverse is true for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. But then you haven't studied these basics as you prefer the comfort zone of talking points.

I didn't see JA yesteday at the HateFest in Berkeley. I was looking for him in the crowd. I wanted him to show me what he intended to do with his illegal gatt".

I did however se four jihadis in a green mini van acting suspicious, casing the place and takig photos. So Tia would be well advised to report this to the authorities.

"Somehow, I don't think that all her bashing blather is going to take MECA down."

Well, I must tell you that I distributed many many copies of MECA's financial statement to people at the rally, and many of them were quite shocked. Perhaps it will have an effect. Perhaps not.

"We are not obliged to complete the work, but neither are we free to desist from it. "

Self-Delusions of Grandeur Raving Paranoiac Tia: "All is well and it is being "handled"."

Have any idea, Tia?

Please point me to existing photos on the web if you're aware of any.

Self-Delusions of Grandeur Raving Paranoiac Tia: "Well, I must tell you that I distributed many many copies of MECA's financial statement to people at the rally, and many of them were quite shocked. Perhaps it will have an effect. Perhaps not."

becky: "The coins are historic evidence of Jewish ownership of Israel"

If they didn't, then that means that there _sole_ "claim" to Palestine would be a religious one. And that would make them ALL look as absolutely NUTTY as those absolutely wacko Jewish religious fundamentalist settlers!


"The only few grave problems to your cause are that (1) blah blah blah. (2) blah blah blah. (3) blah blah blah."

One IDIOTIC "justification" short of the number of NUTTY ZIONISTS in this thread.


"Jews come in all skin complexions. 57% of Israeli Jews are non-Ashkenazi; quite a few Ashkenazi Jews are rather darked skinned while the reverse is true for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. But then you haven't studied these basics as you prefer the comfort zone of talking points."

NAtionalist ZIonism (like it's other NAZI white-supremacist variant based on blood) was a _European_ Jewish invention in the late 1800's. And you can tell it was a white invention, because the first thing they looked for when they had trouble was to go take it out on some non-white people. Besides, non-European Jews in Palestine - from the darker Sephardics to, especially, the black Jews - were often treated like SHIT - have historically and often complained about oppression or discrimination from the European/American Jews in Israel. There are brown, black, yellow and red skin people in America: that doesn't mean this isn't a racist country and that it hasn't had a DEEP history of ethnic cleansing and racism.

Racism is not only based on whom you include, but whom - which ethnic group - you EXCLUDE - IDIOT.

When you target a certain group for ethnic cleansing, or say that they don't have an equal voice in the government of the land, or say that people of a certain ethnic group don't have a right to return, all based on their ethnicity, that's RACISM.

But, NOTHING will morally convince you of that because you're _ZIO_Nazis. It would be like trying to cnvince the _other_ Nazis that _they_ were morally wrong.



Gehrig, you _know_ these clowns?

Care to make it _four_, gehrig?

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Jews consider themselves all related _by blood_ -- i.e., RACIALIZED."

There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"If they didn't, then that means that there _sole_ "claim" to Palestine would be a religious one. And that would make them ALL look as absolutely NUTTY as those absolutely wacko Jewish religious fundamentalist settlers! "

Bullshit. The claim to the land of Israel aka Palestine is actually three-pronged: religious, historical and legal. Not necessarily in this order. Shows how much you know.

This is from Ziff "The Rape of Palestine" (1938):

"We should expect to find an exodus of Arabs from lands where Jews are settled. But exactly the opposite is true: it is precisely in the vicinity of those Jewish villages that Arab development is most marked. Arab Haifa, profiting from the Jewish boom grew from 1922 to 1936 by 130%, Jaffa by 80% and Jerusalem by 55%...In the vicinity of the Jewish villages Arab workers earn twice the wage paid in other parts of Palestine. "

Once the poorest , sorriest population in this whole section of poverty stricken masses, the Arabs of Palestine are now the richest per capita of their race"

"Dr. W.E. Blackstone, quoting the foremost authorities on international law, pointed out in 1891 that since the Jews never gave up their title to Palestine, the general "law of dereliction" could not hold in in their case; "for they never abandoned the land. They made no treaty; they did not even surrender. They simply succumbed, after the most desperate conflict, to the overwhelming power of the Romans...and were captured or enslaved...Since then, having no sovereign nor political head through whom they could speak, they have disputed the possession of their land by continued protest through their literature and their public and private worship...
Blackstone quotes the outstanding leading legal luminaries of his day, who agree that the Jewish claim was legally, at least, sound that the Jewish claim is legally sound. He points out that according to the logical precedents established by such authorities as Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, Phillimore and others, "the forcible manner by which Israel has been kept out of the land, with no means of redress, is equivalent in principle to a continued state of war..."
The greatest legal authorities have agreed that according to the foundation principles of international law there is no basis for prescription against Israel... therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE"


Me:
The only few grave problems to your cause are that (1)..."

Antisemitic dumbass:
"One IDIOTIC "justification" short of the number of NUTTY ZIONISTS in this thread. "

Boy, your level of intelligence is one heck of a punchline.

Me:
Jews come in all skin complexions. 57% of Israeli Jews are non-Ashkenazi; quite a few Ashkenazi Jews are rather dark skinned while the reverse is true for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. But then you haven't studied these basics as you prefer the comfort zone of talking points.

Antisemitic raving dumbass:
"NAtionalist ZIonism (like it's other NAZI white-supremacist variant based on blood) was a _European_ Jewish invention in the late 1800's."

Likening Zionism to Nazism is the classic refuge of bug eyed antisemites who can't handle the facts and see that Palestinism is one of Nazism's sister nationalistic ideologies.

Antisemitic pro-Muslim supremacism raving dumbass:
"And you can tell it was a white invention, because the first thing they looked for when they had trouble was to go take it out on some non-white people."

So you gather that Arabs are all Black people? Not Caucasian? I gather you don't need to back up you hilarious claim with historical evidence. Oh brother.. this dude is more moronic than JA. Verily.

Antisemitic pro-Muslim supremacism raving dumbass:
"Besides, non-European Jews in Palestine - from the darker Sephardics to, especially, the black Jews - were often treated like SHIT - have historically and often complained about oppression or discrimination from the European/American Jews in Israel."

Except that American Jews are invariably looked down on as weak, naive and wide eyed idealists and treated with contempt even by Sephardic Jews. But then you had no way of knowing that.

Antisemitic pro-Muslim supremacism raving dumbass:
"Racism is not only based on whom you include, but whom - which ethnic group - you EXCLUDE - IDIOT."

Duh. That's why your Palestinian cherubs are so racist.

Antisemitic pro-Muslim supremacism raving dumbass:
"When you target a certain group for ethnic cleansing, or say that they don't have an equal voice in the government of the land, or say that people of a certain ethnic group don't have a right to return, all based on their ethnicity, that's RACISM. "

That's a pretty apt description of what the Palestnians believe in.

Antisemitic pro-Muslim supremacism raving dumbass:
"But, NOTHING will morally convince you of that because you're _ZIO_Nazis. It would be like trying to cnvince the _other_ Nazis that _they_ were morally wrong. "

Your racist excrement is of no consequence to my intelligence because you're a rabid Palinazi racist who probably subscribes to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I don't have any really hope of getting through to you to convince you that what you and your beloved Hamas believe in is a racist travesty of orality, history and justice.

"There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed."

Then that means that Jews are not a unique people then - and thus have _NO_ unique and sole claim to the land - no more than catholics, as such, have a unique and sole claim to France.


""Dr. W.E. Blackstone, quoting the foremost authorities on international law, pointed out in 1891 that since the Jews never gave up their title to Palestine..."

Their _"TITLE"_? Was this the one written by God? Hmm, I _wonder_ what "foremost authorities on international law" _WE_ ( as in W.E., wink, wink)
quoted? Were they _zionists_, or _imperialists_? Hmm...


"[the longest string of legal NONSENSE you ever read which NO country in the world would ever accept for itself...] therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE."

You _ARE_ a nut!

(So, even if we rid the world of all but one _one_ crazy zionist, because "the jihadis" still couldn't get her, Tia could STILL claim ALL of Palestine?)


You Zio-Nazis could make the _other_ Nazis bust out with laughter! Have you thought of putting on 'Saturday Night Live' shows for each other? You could call it "The Fritz and Scapegoated Jew Show" with special comedy on ethnic cleansing and constructing tall ghetto walls (walling people in or out - depending on what side of the wall you're on) like: "Take OUR despised minority, PLEASE!" [quick, short drum roll follow with a cymbal hit!] Or, "WALL? THAT'S no wall! You should see OUR ghetto walls!"

Even gehrig's LAUGHING at YOUR arguments! Right gehrig?

Sounds like our old driveler JA. He must have gotten his cap lock button un stuck. So time has gone by and he's not smarter but still just hatin' and baitin'.

SD: "There's no Catholic language per se, no common Catholic history and culture. By contrast, there IS a common Jewish history, language, culture and religion, for Judaism is a fusion of peoplehood and religion, one of the only 2-3 in existence. Ergo Jews are a unique people, much to your chagrin."

So, if you are saying that they are "unique", then you've RACIALIZED Jews. A false racial construct from the Nazis (the other ones) - yet not even the Nazis could even tell most Gentiles and Jews apart - that the Zionists went along with for their own racist justifications and program of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

But...

What language did German Jews speak?

(Were German Jews eating falafel, dancing to Arab music, and wearing robes and turbins?)

What language did Russian Jews speak?

What language did Swedish Jews speak?

What language did French Jews speak?

What language did Arab Jews speak?

(For that matter what CULTURE did Arab Jews practice, what cuisine did they eat, and who do they look like? They look like other Arabs.)

What language did Persian Jews speak?

Did they eat the same kind of foods that English Jews ate for breakfast?

What language did British or American Jews speak?

What language do Latin American Jews speak? What kind of food do they eat?

What language do Caribbean Jews speak?

What langauge did "Peruvian Indian Jews" (remember when Israel 'discovered' "Peruvian Indian Jews"? - talk about a LAUGH)?

What language did Ethiopian Jews speak?

Did Polish Jews beat drums and dance the way Ethiopian Jews did - or other sub-Saharan black Jews?

And what wouldn't make you think that, of course, a lot of Jews in Europe, Africa, and even in the Middle East converted to Christianity or Islam over the centuries? So, maybe _I'm_ of Jewish heritage (I do have Christian black friends who _are_)! Didn't Israel also 'discover' all those Christian Russian Jews who didn't even know they were Jewish? - until they got economically lucky enough to go to Israel, many using that in the back door hopes of really getting to the U.S.!

Etc.

The nationality, native language, foods, clothing, customs, music and culture of Jews is as different as the native languages, foods, customs, music and cultures of Catholics -- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language!



>Their _"TITLE"_? Was this the one written by God? Hmm, I _wonder_ what "foremost authorities on international law" _WE_ ( as in W.E., wink, wink)
quoted? Were they _zionists_, or _imperialists_? Hmm... "

SJ: "Alright, tell me which foremost authorities on international law existed *then* that you value at all."

It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names.


>>SJ: ""[the longest string of legal NONSENSE you ever read which NO country in the world would ever accept for itself...] therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE."

>You _ARE_ a nut! "

SJ: "In other words, when you've got no valid refutation you throw out ad hominems and delede yourself you've solved the problem."

TELL US what country in the WORLD (including the primarily two imperialist powers who sponsored the zionist colonial state) would ever accept for ITSELF such a NUTTY argument and NUTTY claim from another such people? Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so.


>"(So, even if we rid the world of all but one _one_ crazy zionist, because "the jihadis" still couldn't get her, Tia could STILL claim ALL of Palestine?)"

SJ: "Why is it OK with you that your dear Palis have constantly staked a claim for all of Palestine as a Jew-free area and most support genocide to achieve this goal?"

WRONG. Didn't answer the question. You substituted a dodge for your OBVIOUSLY - even to you - NUTTY claim.


>"gehrig you _know_ this clown SJ?"

SJ: "I'd rather work as a clown..."

Well, then you're doing _GOOD_ work!

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject.

just more Nessie droppings. Go play on SF Indymedia!

- There's no Catholic language per se, no common Catholic history and culture. By contrast, there IS a common Jewish history, language, culture and religion, for Judaism is a fusion of peoplehood and religion, one of the only 2-3 in existence. Ergo Jews are a unique people, much to your chagrin.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"So, if you are saying that they are "unique", then you've RACIALIZED Jews. "

I'm saying you're filtering the facts presented to you with the vile racist filter attached to your indoctrinated mind.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"A false racial construct from the Nazis (the other ones) that the Zionists went along with "

(1) When a Palinazi stumbles onto startling new facts he can't come to terms with, he rather grab the closest analogy he can find, no matter how inane. Hint: the racial purity concept is anathema to both Judaism and Zionism. But your Protocol inspired talking points do not enable you to grasp this.
(2) The other ones being -- among others -- your fellow Palinazis in my neckadawoods who made it a death sentence for any Palestinian to sell any land to any Jew in Judea-Samaria. That's the law of the land there -- no one is permitted to sell a Jew any land, and you uebermensch condone this or even support it.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"for their [the Zionists] own racist justifications and program of ethnic cleansing in Palestine. "

This program is right out of your a**. There's never been such a thing.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"What language did German Jews speak? nyah nyah cluck cluck "

Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"(Were German Jews eating falafel, dancing to Arab music, and wearing robes and turbins?) "

Common culture was shared by all Jews through the common religious and linguistic heritage that all Jews possessed. This is certainly true for the Torah all by itself which was the only body of scripture Ethiopian Jews recognized until modern times. The religious practices shared by all Jews stems from this common cultural heritage.

As for the Catholics, tell me which language did Catholics share that can be spoken be French, Italian, Argentinian, Indian, UK Catholics meeting together? Besides the Church brass, only the priests were allowed to learn Latin -- the supposed holy Catholic language -- while the masses couldn't understand a damn word of Christmas Mass. Alright dumbass, will you please tell me??!

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"(For that matter what CULTURE did Arab Jews practice, what cuisine did they eat, and who do they look like? They look like other Arabs.) "

(a.) Not all "Arab Jews" i.e. Sefaradim, Temanim and Mizrahim look like Arabs as you perceive the Arab appearance to be. I've already told you this but you're feebleminded, so you can't really learn new things.
(b.) Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews. The Book of Ruth in the Hebrew Bible mentions dietary staples that seem to denote houmous and pitta bread. It may well be that the occupying Arabs appropriated the indigenous Jewish cuisine or parts thereof starting from the 7th century.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"What langauge did "Peruvian Indian Jews"

I'm not surprised you don't considered them Jewish. You're the goosestepping miscreant till the end.

Also, it's noteworthy that with the passage of generations after the Temple's destruction in 70 AD the Jews gradually lost their original musical tradition. This wouldn't have happened if a system of musical noted had existed back then.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And what wouldn't make you think that, of course, a lot of Jews in Europe, Africa, and even in the Middle East converted to Christianity or Islam over the centuries?"

So what? You must be jealous to try to denigrate Judaism's traction this way.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Didn't Israel also 'discover' all those Christian Russian Jews who didn't even know they were Jewish? - until they got economically lucky enough to go to Israel, many using that in the back door hopes of really getting to the U.S.! "

Many share my opinion that the Pravoslav Christians and those totally lacking an affiliation to Judaism shouldn't have been brought in. But then Nathan Sharansky was once the interior minister and he maintained that most of these must be let in for humanitarian reasons. Let me tell ya, even some Russian speaking Jews have been fuming over this. I know of one case where one -- a deputy mayor -- even went so far as exhorting that they be thrown out and asking "why should they be tolerated".


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language! "

That's a logical fallacy because it never has been, O retard. (And I doubt even the clergymen have been using it for the past thousand years for conversation and other secular purposes.)


>Their _"TITLE"_? Was this the one written by God? Hmm, I _wonder_ what "foremost authorities on international law" _WE_ ( as in W.E., wink, wink)
quoted? Were they _zionists_, or _imperialists_? Hmm... "

Alright, tell me which foremost authorities on international law existed *then* that you value at all.

Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names. "

I did that. You're the cowardly buffoon running away from the need to rebut my case by proving the opposite case.


"therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE."

>You _ARE_ a nut! "

In other words, when you've got no valid refutation you throw out ad hominems and delude yourself you've solved the problem."

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"TELL US what country in the WORLD (including the primarily two imperialist powers who sponsored the zionist colonial state) would ever accept for ITSELF such a NUTTY argument and NUTTY claim from another such people? "

You've performed a breathtaking feat of bunk logic by stringing a few fallacies together, so there's nothing to answer here. It's diversionary hokum.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so. "

Here you go again with the false "racist white people" refrain while you ignore in the same breath the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"(So, even if we rid the world of all but one _one_ crazy zionist, because "the jihadis" still couldn't get her, Tia could STILL claim ALL of Palestine?)"

Why is it OK with you that your dear Palis have constantly staked a claim to all of Palestine as a Jew-free area and most support genocide to achieve this goal?

"WRONG. Didn't answer the question."

Your question was just to subsumed by the retard factor to dignify with a candid reply. OTOH you've dodged a few of my questions originally spurred by your own peculiar ignorant or racist statements.

You've been caught numerous times, measured and found very wanting due to vast ignorance, hypocrisy and racism.

if you love Isrel so much, why don't you live there?

If you love Ireland so much, why don't you immigrate to it?

They "forgot" to mention the counter protest.

Some background: Berkeley has a tradition of BART alerts- when something egregious happens, people spontaneously gather at the train station and march through town. Thousands gathered during the Vietnam era.
Yesterday's anemic showing, while planned a week in advance and was hardly spontaneous, shows the complete lack of support the Palestinian cause has, even in Berkeley. Even as this pitiful, ragtag group marched, trying to gather support from pedestrians, they were largely ignored.

SJ: "I'm saying you're filtering the facts presented to you with the vile racist filter attached to your indoctrinated mind."

In other words, I'm _TWICKING_ you with the FACTS! You don't know whether to argue that Jews are UNIQUE and have "a common Jewish history, language, culture" - which is OBVIOUSLY false - or that "There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed" - which means that Jews are NOT UNIQUE! (I didn't even mention the Asian Jews. Do you think they spoke Yiddish or Hebrew?) You don't know whether to jump into the skillet or the frying pan. Either way, it's like me the cat playing with you the mouse. The Nazis wanted to "re-unite" all the Germanic people (whether they were born in Germany or not) and the Zio-Nazis wanted to "re-unite" all the Jewish people (even if their families had never even set foot in Palestine). But sound NUTSO, don't they!


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"A false racial construct from the Nazis (the other ones) that the Zionists went along with "

It's interesting how you Zionists always complain about ad hominems UNTIL you get caught up in your own Zionist bullshit and can't respond to the arguments. Yes, the Zionists _admitted_ that The Jews _were_ a distinct people - a race- that was "unassimilable" into ordinary European society and therefore needed their own country. Read Lenni Brenner (he's one of the world's foremost scholars on Zionism): "51 Documents: Jewish Collaboration with the Nazis". Even in the U.S. Jews originally said they were a separate race from (other) white people: there were _whites_ and _Jews_. Google: "how the jews became white".)


SJ: "Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas."

Well, Latin was used for similar purposes. Does that mean that all Catholics are unique?

ANOTHER DODGE because we ALL know the answer to my _series_ of questions. Jews generally spoke the language of their native country, whether that was Britain, French, Italy, Germany, Latin America, the Arab world, sub-Saharan Africa, or China.

Hebrew was largely a _resurrected_ nationalist zionist language. And any Jew that I ever knew growing up or in college who wanted to speak Hebrew had to go take a _class_ in it (the very few of them that did), just like I had to go take a class to learn to speak French or Spanish.

Most of the Jews I know (and knew growing up) didn't know Hebrew at all - except maybe for a few words that they had to mumble at some Bar/Bat Mitzvah - just like when some Catholics who didn't know Latin mumbled a few words in church at high mass or at their Confirmation. Most of the Jews I know (and knew growing up) aren't even religious. How many Jewish girls do you think wanted to spout that misogynist stuff about thanking God that someone wasn't born a woman? Why, I understand that the majority of Western Jews aren't even religious. I was amazed to meet Jews that knew as little about the Bible as I did. I had intellectually curious _aetheist_ friends who read A LOT who knew more about the Bible and Bilbical history than either me or my Jewish friends.

Many Jews in America live/d a socioculturally - though not religously - _Christian_ lifestyle and even celebrated Christmas! Just like when I had more culturally/religiously identified Jewish roommates we would all - Jewish and non-Jewish - religious and non-religious - celebrate Shabbat and Passover and other Jewish occasions.

SJ: "As for the Catholics, tell me which language did Catholics share"

Traditionally Latin.


SJ: "Besides the Church brass, only the priests were allowed to learn Latin -- the supposed holy Catholic language -- while the masses couldn't understand a damn word of Christmas Mass. Alright dumbass, will you please tell me??!"

Yeah, it was illegal to study Latin in the 19th & 20th century if you weren't a priest, right? What about all the Jews who had to learn to mumble something in Hebrew for their Bar/Bat Mitzvah that they barely understood - and never learned any Hebrew after that? They couldn't even ask where to go take a shit in Hebrew. Now what kind of dumasses are THEY?

And, unless they were deeply religious, every Jewish-American I know who wanted to go live in Israel for even a year had to go take _classes_ somewhere in Hebrew language - because it _wasn't_ a language they even knew.


SJ: "Not all "Arab Jews" i.e. Sefaradim, Temanim and Mizrahim look like Arabs as you perceive the Arab appearance to be. I've already told you this but you're feebleminded, so you can't really learn new things."

You can't even generally tell a Jew from a Gentile in the the rest of the world (especially if they are of the same "race"), but you're going to tell me that you can tell all Arab Jews from all other Arabs? What do you do: do craniotomy measurements, head shapes, height measurements, arm lengths and hand sizes, like HITLER and the NAZI eugenicists and "racial hygienists" claimed they could tell from? Well, I once came across a Jewish guy and, amazingly, he could have almost been the identical twin brother of a Palestinian friend of mine. I shook my head, thinking about how white people (whether Christian or Jewish) are always historically obsessing over race, yet these two guys could be twin brothers.

But people like you (or gehrig, for all his - have you noticed? - brief blusters and one-liners) are not nearly as emotionally and intellectually strong as Jewish friends of mine who reject Zionist racism and all that "reclaiming of ancient land" bullshit. So, I wouldn't expect you to be able to reject that nonsense. You just keep going on with your racist rationalizations - just like most of the Nazi era Germans did. It takes an emotionally very strong and secure person to reject his "race's" racism.


SJ: "Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews."

_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE?

It reminds me of Russians who claim that everything of cultural, intellectual or even musical value in European society came from a Russian first. Often, historically, the same with the Germans or the French. Or how white people in general claim that every contribution to civilization actually came from white people first. Or how even the Japanese used to claim that everything in Japan came from the Japanese first - until they archeology discovered that many things in Japan actually came from the historically Japanese-despised Koreans. So, did German Jews eat pita and falafal too?


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"What langauge did "Peruvian Indian Jews"

SJ: "I'm not surprised you don't considered them Jewish. You're the goosestepping miscreant till the end."

Another DODGE. No answer, huh? Why didn't you just say HEBREW?


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And what wouldn't make you think that, of course, a lot of Jews in Europe, Africa, and even in the Middle East converted to Christianity or Islam over the centuries?"

SJ: "So what? You must be jealous to try to denigrate Judaism's traction this way."

Another DODGE.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Didn't Israel also 'discover' all those Christian Russian Jews who didn't even know they were Jewish? - until they got economically lucky enough to go to Israel, many using that in the back door hopes of really getting to the U.S.! "

SJ: "Many share my opinion that the Pravoslav Christians and those totally lacking an affiliation to Judaism shouldn't have been brought in. But then Nathan Sharansky was once the interior minister and he maintained that most of these must be let in for humanitarian reasons. Let me tell ya, even some Russian speaking Jews have been fuming over this. I know of one case where one -- a deputy mayor -- even went so far as exhorting that they be thrown out and asking "why should they be tolerated". "

Yes, in the end, Israel resorts to bringing in almost anyone it can pass off as being Jewish, because the only way Israel can maintain a majority of Jews and "Jews" is through STATE INTERVENTION. Otherwise, just as Hitler obsessed over "too many Jews", Jews in Israel obsess over "TOO MANY PALESTINIANS"!

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language! "

SJ: "That's a logical fallacy because it never has been, O retard. (And I doubt even the clergymen have been using it for the past thousand years for conversation and other secular purposes.)"


Well, the native language of British, French, Canadian, Latin American, Chinese, German, etc., Jews certainly wasn't _Hebrew_.

And speaking of _dumass retard_, what do you think _Christians_ spoke during the Roman Empire? And what language do you think _French_ comes from?

Hebrew was largely a dead language much like Latin. It was resurrected for nationlist colonialist purposes.


Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names. "

SJ: I did that.

I glossed over it in all your twisted zionist _bullshit_ that not even the U.S. would accept from another people (the U.S. doesn't even accept it from Native Americans!).

Okay Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, Phillimore. (Remind me to come back and look up these - whad'ya bet! - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_! - after I finish with the rest of your bullshit.)


>>SJ: "therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE."

>You _ARE_ a nut! "

SJ: "In other words, when you've got no valid refutation you throw out ad hominems and delude yourself you've solved the problem."

WELL, LET'S VERIFY IT: So, if every zionist is eliminated except Tia - because the "jihadis" couldn't catch her - she can still claim _ALL_ of Palestine?


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"TELL US what country in the WORLD (including the primarily two imperialist powers who sponsored the zionist colonial state) would ever accept for ITSELF such a NUTTY argument and NUTTY claim from another such people? "

SJ: "You've performed a breathtaking feat of bunk logic by stringing a few fallacies together, so there's nothing to answer here. It's diversionary hokum."

Another DODGE.

Well, unravel it however you want! Which country in the world would ever accept a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent - that the European zionists made on Palestine (and which, in fact, no Palestinian Jews asserted) - including the two imperialist powers that sponsored Israel and _forced_ it on Palestine without consulting _any_ Palestinians? "Hey, Britain and America, we've come back to reclaim our ancient land from 2,000 years ago! We used to live there and there's still a handful of the old timers left. "

I expect another DODGE.

Britain and the U.S. would lock you up in the nearest insane asylum - which is where all you zionists really belong. (The U.S. won't even give back Native American land from 150 years ago.)


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so. "

SJ: "Here you go again with the false "racist white people" refrain while you ignore in the same breath the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians."

Another DODGE.

Yeah, Europeans called anyone racist who resists colonization - even the Native Americans! Jews call resistance to colonization "anti-Semitism". You know what's "Nazi-like"?: _ethnic cleansing_ and thinking that you have an exclusive, racialized right to land and rule. Oh, and there's 'no' racism among Jews, huh?


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"(So, even if we rid the world of all but one _one_ crazy zionist, because "the jihadis" still couldn't get her, Tia could STILL claim ALL of Palestine?)"

>>SJ: "Why is it OK with you that your dear Palis have constantly staked a claim to all of Palestine as a Jew-free area and most support genocide to achieve this goal?"

>"WRONG. Didn't answer the question."

SJ: 'Your question was just to subsumed by the retard factor to dignify with a candid reply."

Another DODGE.


SJ: "OTOH you've dodged a few of my questions originally spurred by your own peculiar ignorant or racist statements."

That's because you don't logically answer a question with _A NON SEQUITUR_.

You DODGE a question with a non sequitur.


Okay, back to Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, and Phillimore...: your "legal luminaries". I gotta go out and catch a late breakfast and I don't have time to scrounge around with incomplete information on the internet.. Give me their first names - together with their last names - so I can do a google search. Now, let's see if these "legal luminaries" are - oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_!

>If you love Ireland so much, why don't you immigrate to it?

I don't love Ireland so much. I admire their IMC. It's exemplary. The rest of the place is a decidedly mixed bag. Or so I hear. I don't know from experience because I've never been there.

How typically racist it is to assume that because that's where my ancestors came from, that I would, or even should, love Ireland more than some other place.

I'm not Irish. I'm an American. I don't even love America. So why should I love Ireland? The very idea is absurd. It's just another country. I don't love any countries. I think countries are a bad idea. History agrees.

Take Israel for example. For two thousand years, Jews were among the most peace loving people on earth. As soon as some of them got their own country, they turned into modern day Nazis. Nationalism is a disease.

What 'president' Bush is, as the 'front man' for the group managing the United States, the illegal wars of the US armed forces with the war criminals of the 'Coalition of the Killing' and the economic structures, is what Noam Chomsky is for the 'thinking group of people' wrongly a.k.a. liberals: Bush and Chomsky each function as lightning rods.

NOAM CHOMSKY - A LIGHTNING ROD?

Foreign Press Foundation - Henk Ruyssenaars

FPF - June 21st - 2006 - What 'president' Bush is, as the 'front man' for the group managing the United States, the illegal wars of the US armed forces with the war criminals of the 'Coalition of the Killing' and the economic structures, is what Noam Chomsky is for the 'thinking group of people' wrongly a.k.a. liberals: Bush and Chomsky each function as 'lightning rods'.

Via the by the group of 'managers' owned brainwashing messmedia (pun intended) the human beings which are critical towards the societies they live in - because of the inhuman global 'profit structure' which for the past centuries has spread like a mortal plague - most of those critical people are slyly taught to 'follow the leader of criticism' all the way; like silent 'liberal' lambs to the not so kosher slaughter.

Instead of taking hay forks etc. people take a book, published, advocated and sold by the same MSM gang, or watch the by the group produced Hollywood lobotomy c.q. brainwash. And yes, I've seen and met the exceptions too in different countries: people really doing things which may change parts of the world. But alas, many times they are caught again by the usurers, or just silenced. - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/aln7f

THE PROFESSIONAL KILLERS ARE NEVER CAUGHT- ONLY THE PATSIES

Take for instance Louis Sévèke, one of the few researchers/journalists left in 'The Netherlands' - one of the 'richest' countries in the world for the managers bleeding the 16 million inhabitants. And for centuries already one of the worst colonies for the people within the production system. Sévèke has been investigating this 'secret service system' for the past twenty years, and published among many cases ten years ago a very informative book about the secret police in Holland. But he was liquidated last November, 300 meters from where this is written. Leaving scared people to wonder what he was investigating, being important enough to silence him? And of course the professional killer was never caught. - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/s4fs6

GET ALL THE BLAME

But, like Chomsky, Bush also can be seen as just another one of their 'products': someone who is a frequent target of negative reactions and serves to distract attention from the way the populations and globe are wrecked. And by whom.* The 'lightning rod function' which ultimately may turn Bush c.s. into 'a fall guy': he and some minions get all the blame, and the manager's show goes on. - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/mfzdd

As signature 'Nick' wrote: ''Don't let 9/11 distract you from this bigger picture - the current world economic system condemns 1,200 children to death every single hour of every single day of every year. Think about that for a while. It's the system that needs changing, not just the individuals in control of it at particular points of time. - Nick." -[ ]

When the gurus of the management group via their media megaphones tell us to all look in one direction: look over your shoulder! Because that's probably where things are happening you are not supposed to know. Or do not want to know? Like Chomsky, ignoring the scientific facts (Law of Nature) concerning the 9/11 inside job?*

IF PEOPLE REALLY WOULD UNDERSTAND

Because, if people really would understand 'who' is doing 'what' to them, and how long this already has been going on globally - (Remember? - 1,200 children die every single hour!) - they would immediately drop their books and use hay forks or worse. For the collaborating messmedia and the Chomskys of this Matrix-World now - and mostly via Internet and good web sites like Information Clearing House - the cracks start to show. 'The Truman Show' a.k.a. 'The American Dream' is coming to a miserable end. - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/mxny3

'Reasons enough' - as one of the 'front men' stated: "Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - George Bush Senior speaking in an interview with Sarah McClendon in December 1992.*

BILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE ARE HOPING THAT INCLUDES 'THE MANAGERS' TOO, THINKING:

IT'S ABOUT TIME...

HR

RELATED/REFERENCES:

* Concerning 'PNAC' - the 'Project for a New American Cemetery' - Jewish 2005 Nobel Literature Prize winner Harold Pinter: "People do not forget. They do not forget the death of their fellows, they do not forget torture and mutilation, they do not forget injustice, they do not forget oppression, they do not forget the terrorism of mighty powers. They not only don't forget: they also strike back." - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/9cyeq

* PNAC letter to 'president' Bush - Url.: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm

* Wrecking the world: THE 'WHY' OF GLOBAL RESISTANCE - HOW IT IS DONE BY THE PNAC'S CIA JACKALS & THE WORLD BANK's SERIAL KILLER WOLFOWITZ - 'Confessions of an economic 'hit man'. World Bank insider John Perkins explains: "Jackals' are C.I.A. - sanctioned people that come in and try to foment a coup or revolution. If it doesn't work, they perform assassinations, or try to." - They steal billions for the World Bank, IMF, USAID, UNDP, AID etc. - Perkins web site - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/jvhbu - It's your life too: Must watch Video Url.: www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8171.htm

* "Chased down in the streets and lynched." - George Bush Senior speaking in an interview with Sarah McClendon in December 1992. - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/omczx

* Chomsky's strange ideas concerning 9/11 are well known by now, so he may join Bush in Stockholm (Sweden) for the THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP OF MAGIC - Url.: http://www.cemab.be/print.php?id=1167&comments=yes

* According to MSNBC and their Internet Live Vote, today - June 21st 2006 - 10.0 GMT: ''Do you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment?'' - Eighty-six percent (86%) want the 'front man' to go: ''Yes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.''
Url.: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/

* * The Nuremberg principles: "Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefor and liable to punishment." - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/byurp

* 'The war in Iraq is illegal' - BBC: video & text-interview of the United Nation's Secretary General Kofi Annan - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/5pl2v

* Reference guide to the Geneva Conventions - Url.: http://www.genevaconventions.org

* Example of the 'hay fork effect' - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/e2l3l

* MORE RELATED LINKS - Url.: http://tinyurl.com/gkgrb

* FPF-COPYRIGHT NOTICE - In accordance with Title 17 U. S. C. Section 107 - any copyrighted work in this message is distributed by the Foreign Press Foundation under fair use, without profit or payment, to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the information. Url.: http://liimirror.warwick.ac.uk/uscode/17/107.html

FOREIGN PRESS FOUNDATION
http://forpressfound.blogspot.com/
Editor: Henk Ruyssenaars
http://tinyurl.com/amn3q
The Netherlands
fpf@chello.nl

-0-

EDITOR: since I and my arguments were attacked, my latest retort should be left visible on the thread at least until after the anonymous antisemite posts counter-arguments here. I'm asking that you refrain from further hiding this post even if you side with all he has said.

=====================================================

Right off the bat I'll stress that this rabid antisemite has refuted nothing nor proven his points, and is deliberately ignoring evidence for the rabid quasi-Nazi racism rampant among his beloved Palis.

********

- I'm saying you're filtering the facts presented to you with the vile racist filter attached to your indoctrinated mind.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"In other words, I'm _TWICKING_ you with the FACTS! ngah nagh ngah "

I'm rubbing both the facts and your Nazoid racist funk into your ugly face. You're probably a pre-adolescent starving for attention.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"It's interesting how you Zionists always complain about ad hominems UNTIL you get caught up in your own Zionist bullshit and can't respond to the arguments. Yes, the Zionists _admitted_ that The Jews _were_ a distinct people - a race- that was "unassimilable" into ordinary European society and therefore needed their own country."

What Zionist bullshit? You have yet to point out even one bit of tripe I supposedly said anywhere.
You're again superimposing your own vile racism onto the Jews' distinctness. I don't use the definition "race" but rather people or a nation.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Read Lenni Brenner (he's one of the world's foremost scholars on Zionism)"

I've got better things to do with my time than read anything authored by your pet revisionist historians like Schoenman and Brenner. Their unreliability is by now legendary. They've been exposed as frauds by academics and laypeople alike from both sides of the isle, not only Zionists.


- Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Well, Latin was used for similar purposes. Does that mean that all Catholics are unique? "

Never for secular purposes among lay Catholics during the past 1,400 or so years, so your question is a non-sequitor.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"ANOTHER DODGE because we ALL know the answer to my _series_ of questions. "

The real dodge is yours because Hebrew was common to them all as a people's language used for secular purposes, let alone the religious ones as I explained.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Jews generally spoke the language of their native country, whether that was Britain, French, Italy, Germany, Latin America, the Arab world, sub-Saharan Africa, or China. "

But your pea-brain isn't distinguishing the last 210 years or so from the preceding period. Before the era of Enlightment dawned, the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were still speaking Yiddish while their Separdic counterparts were speaking Ladino. The Separdim continued collectively speaking among themselves Ladino until the mid 20th century. The Mideastern Sephardim and the Mizrahim spoke mainly Judeo-Arabic. So much for Jews speaking their native countries' languages. You kid yourself you've refuted my point but you haven't. Nothing you've said refutes the fact Hebrew was a national language for Jews. Your attempts to depict Hebrew as a "revived nationalist zionist language" don't change these facts; they do however betray you as a brainwashed historical anti-Zionist ignoramus. Eliezer ben Yehuda (you're probably gazing at the monitor now in wonderment who the hell he was) was aware of the Hebrew terms and vocabulary created in the Middle Ages subsequent periods.
You really should do your homework before purporting to come across like a specialist about a topic you know only partially at best.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And any Jew that I ever knew growing up or in college who wanted to speak Hebrew had to go take a _class_ in it yadda yadda blah blah "

Again, what has this got to do with the pre-Enlighment periods? You knew damn well I was referring to those eras and not to post-Enlightment.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Most of the Jews I know (and knew growing up) aren't even religious. yadda yadda blah blah"

You know yourself that this fact doesn't anul the fact that all Jews as a people share the same religion. Or perhaps you're too much of a moron to grasp this. Who besides some ultra-Orthodox Jewish fanatics says all Jews must practice the religion to be Jewish? Nazoid antisemities like you.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"How many Jewish girls do you think wanted to spout that misogynist stuff about thanking God that someone wasn't born a woman?"

How many of the Jews here hold you as an expert on all facets of Jewish life? You aren't even aware -- or just pretending you don't know -- of the existence of other denominations beside the Orthodox where practicing Jewish women do NOT parrot that crap (yes, I said crap). This "benediction" isn't derived from the Jewish OT but from an idea in one *rabbinic* circle of a certain era. That sentence wasn't recited during biblical or any pre-Talmudic times for that matter. I believe this part of the liturgy was only initiated early or at the half mark of the previous millennium AD. In biblical Judaism as practiced in modern times (this movement's only operating synagogue in the US is located somewhere in the Bay Area) women do not parrot that sentence either. Again, you're barely more than a novice who hadn't done his homework and comes across like an utter clown as a consequence.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Many Jews in America live/d a socio culturally - though not religously - _Christian_ lifestyle and even celebrated Christmas! Just like when I had more culturally/religiously identified Jewish roommates we would all - Jewish and non-Jewish - religious and non-religious - celebrate Shabbat and Passover and other Jewish occasions."

So you're essentially conceding this is actually a matter of adaptation of the minority group to the majority's religious and/or cultural practices. You spew so many things that don't refute my claims nor prove your ludicrous arguments from previous posts and waste bandwidth. However... to hear that such a proud antisemite like you didn't refuse to celebrate Jewish occasions -- what a laugh!


- As for the Catholics, tell me which language did Catholics share? (Note how he excised part of my paragraph and grafted it into a passage further down) Besides the Church brass, only the priests were allowed to learn Latin -- the supposed holy Catholic language -- while the masses couldn't understand a damn word of Christmas Mass. Alright dumbass, will you please tell me??!

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Traditionally Latin. "

That's a lie and you know it! You clearly lost on this one. There was *never* a period were the masses *everywhere* knew even a few Latin words.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yeah, it was illegal to study Latin in the 19th & 20th century if you weren't a priest, right? What about all the Jews who had to learn to mumble something in Hebrew for their Bar/Bat Mitzvah that they barely understood - and never learned any Hebrew after that? They couldn't even ask where to go take a shit in Hebrew. Now what kind of dumasses are THEY? blah blah "

As for the Jews and Hebrew in modern times -- yet more irrelevant obfuscation and diversion of attention. Too bad you can't skirt my point, which is that you can't refute Hebrew being a Jewish language all Jews used to utilize for secular purposes between remote diasporas (apparently you're ignorant about the existence of the the Cairo Geniza for instance), nor can you establish that Latin was ever a national Catholic vernacular shared by all Catholics everywhere. You lose and you'll keep losing if need be!


- Not all "Arab Jews" i.e. Sefaradim, Temanim and Mizrahim look like Arabs as you perceive Arab appearance to be. I've already told you this but you're feebleminded, so you can't really learn new things.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"You can't even generally tell a Jew from a Gentile in the the rest of the world (especially if they are of the same "race"), but you're going to tell me that you can tell all Arab Jews from all other Arabs? ngahj ngah ngah"

Uh oh... time to readjust your psycho-active meds. You completely lost track of what the topic was and what I was referring to and you're farting pure BS right out of your Nazoid rear. You're even buttressing my very own claims that refute yours And so you proceed to emit:

"Well, I once came across a Jewish guy and, amazingly, he could have almost been the identical twin brother of a Palestinian friend of mine. I shook my head, thinking about how white people (whether Christian or Jewish) are always historically obsessing over race, yet these two guys could be twin brothers"

And here's your pure clairvoyant-like BS:

"But people like you (or gehrig, for all his - have you noticed? - brief blusters and one-liners) are not nearly as emotionally and intellectually strong as Jewish friends of mine who reject Zionist racism and all that "reclaiming of ancient land" bullshit. blah blah ngah"

What a clown, purporting to know my character based off a limited exchange on a limited array of topics on one site in cyber. Only anti-Zionists could be that hilarious.


- Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE? blah blah blah "

Oh but you see, you deliberately dropped the (linguistic) evidence I marshalled to that effect. Typical anti-Zionist intellectual dishonesty.
Even more striking -- in addition to what I said in the precious post -- is that the Bedouin pitta bread as routinely made in Israel resembles or emulates precisely one staple that the indigenous Jews used to prepare daily.
As for sounding shaky, regale us your expertise in Hebrew linguistics. You surely know where Abel (in Genesis) comes from. I mean what Hebrew root word. So you must be aware of the linguistic connection between a word like "hometz" or "homes" and houmous in Arabic.
You, however, couldn't tell shit from shat if I challenged you to marshal linguistic or historical or religious evidence for Palestinian antiquity in the land of Israel. You'd be quick to fart ad hominems and diversionary tripe faster than you could say "cheeze".

The next item up is a keeper:

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And what wouldn't make you think that, of course, a lot of Jews in Europe, Africa, and even in the Middle East converted to Christianity or Islam over the centuries?"

So what? You must be jealous to try to denigrate Judaism's traction this way.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Another DODGE. "

Dodged what? I've always acknowledged such facts.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Didn't Israel also 'discover' all those Christian Russian Jews who didn't even know they were Jewish? - until they got economically lucky enough to go to Israel, many using that in the back door hopes of really getting to the U.S.! "

Many share my opinion that the Pravoslav Christians and those totally lacking an affiliation to Judaism shouldn't have been brought in. But then Nathan Sharansky was once the interior minister and he maintained that most of these must be let in for humanitarian reasons. Let me tell ya, even some Russian speaking Jews have been fuming over this. I know of one case where one -- a deputy mayor -- even went so far as exhorting that they be thrown out and asking "why should they be tolerated". "

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yes, in the end, Israel resorts to bringing in almost anyone it can pass off as being Jewish, because the only way Israel can maintain a majority of Jews and "Jews" is through STATE INTERVENTION ngah ngah"

Fallacious conclusion. You're twisted what I said into the contortion that suits your own rabid anti-Zionist agenda.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language! "

That's a logical fallacy because it never has been, O retard. (And I doubt even the clergymen have been using it for the past thousand years for conversation and other secular purposes.)

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Well, the native language of British, French, Canadian, Latin American, Chinese, German, etc., Jews certainly wasn't _Hebrew_. "

Diversionary and irrelevent to the Catholics. You just ducked the issue as you had no worthy rejoinder.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And speaking of _dumass retard_, what do you think _Christians_ spoke during the Roman Empire? And what language do you think _French_ comes from? "

Your second question is irrelevant, all the more so given that the Germanic Frankish language and Gaulic also made humble contributions to the development of French. The same pattern in language development also occurred, more or less, in the formation of the other Romance languages. Latin had a very pronounced influence as the Church's lingua franca and almost trumped the native and/or the new conquerors' languages in many places, but not all. After all Italian and Spaniah were always much more related to Latin than German ever was. Latin was never used by all Catholics in antiquity expect maybe shared by those in present day's Italy. That hardly proves your giant strawman that Latin was a national Catholic language. The real lakmus test is whether a given language was used by the commons *everywhere* for secular purposes. Latin never was but Hebrew was up to the late 18th century.


Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names. "

I did that.

Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"I glossed over it in all nyah nyah

You stand refuted.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Which country in the world would ever accept a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent ngah ngah"

Call this a dodge, but I simply don't care. Besides, there was never a country called "Palestine". It simply designated a geographic area. Also, like the buffoon you are, you're invoking of all countries (past and present) imperialistic powers like Britain and the US. Anti-Zionists get funnier al the time.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so. "

Here you go again with the false "racist white people" refrain while you ignore in the same breath the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Another DODGE. "

No, you puked more rubbish and there was nothing to dodge.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yeah, Europeans called anyone racist who resists colonization - even the Native Americans! Jews call resistance to colonization "anti-Semitism". You know what's "Nazi-like"?: _ethnic cleansing_ and thinking that you have an exclusive, racialized right to land and rule. Oh, and there's 'no' racism among Jews, huh? "

See, you're surely dodging my point about the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians as you make a stupid overgeneralization that "Jews call resistance to colonization "anti-Semitism" -- an obvious betrayal of your own deeply ingrained antisemitism. You forgot to use the codeword "Zionists" for Jews! Ha ha!!
All you're willing to do is harp on racism among Jews, but never among your Arab and Palestinian cherubs, not even when you're confronted with the evidence. Typical anti-Zionist giveaway.


- OTOH you've dodged a few of my questions originally spurred by your own peculiar ignorant or racist statements.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"That's because you don't logically answer a question with _A NON SEQUITUR_.

You DODGE a question with a non sequitur. "

Transparent excuses for your sidestepping of my questions.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Okay, back to Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, and Phillimore...: your "legal luminaries". I gotta go out and catch a late breakfast and I don't have time to scrounge around with incomplete information on the internet.. Give me their first names - together with their last names - so I can do a google search. Now, let's see if these "legal luminaries" are - oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_! "

Wouldn't mouth frothing anti-Zionists like you say " BOTH _ZIONISTS_ and _IMPERIALISTS_"?
I'm not your effing mom. Do your own research. In the meantime -- probably forever -- you stand refuted. Poow wittaw baby...

it occurrs to me that this anti-semite must be monolingual and can't comprehend that one might speak English at work, Yiddish to one's family and Hebrew in Shul!

JA: "Okay, back to Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, and Phillimore...: your "legal luminaries". I gotta go out and catch a late breakfast and I don't have time to scrounge around with incomplete information on the internet.. Give me their first names - together with their last names - so I can do a google search. Now, let's see if these "legal luminaries" are - oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_! "

Oh poor ME the "Scapegoated Jew": "I'm not your effing mom. Do your own research."

Has your IP address been blocked at Indybay.org?

A little bird told me yesterday.

can you confirm or deny?

"oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_! "

An ad hominem is not a rebuttal. Their background does not reflect on the accuracy of their words, only on your prejudice. Thank you for playing. Try again soon.

Notice how he refers to himself in the third person as he quotes himself. That's the kind of stuff Windy Wendy used to pull at Indybay.org. He's certifiable alright.

And how long did it take since he reappeared here until he cracked under the emotional pressure and betrayed his identity with his typical "Jewish chicken soup" jab? SY was right all along.

heeheehee...

You've always been a racist Jew hater, but now one wonders why you've become such a coward who's afraid of using his own name.

Speaking of your cowardice, I'm waiting for the refutations you couldn't offer in the exchange and still can't.

I smell a very acute wafting of NOI chicken soup here.

Your little essay has been torn apart or ignored from everywhere you've posted it.
How does it feel to be irrelevant?

Good morning zionist nutcases! I'm back after a very good weekend and a gourmet dinner out yesterday evening. I see you zionsts have been having fun in the meantime. Did somebody set you off?


SJ: "Right off the bat I'll stress that this rabid antisemite has refuted nothing nor proven his points, and is deliberately ignoring evidence for the rabid quasi-Nazi racism rampant among his beloved Palis."

Uh-huh... You know if that were _actually_ true, then you wouldn't have to _say_ it. Bill Gates doesn't run around shouting to everyone around him, "Do you know I'm rich! Do you know I'm rich! Hey everyone, in case you missed it, I'm rich!"


SJ: "I'm rubbing both the facts and your Nazoid racist funk into your ugly face. You're probably a pre-adolescent starving for attention."

And if _that_ were _actually_ true you'd wouldn't have to _DESPERATELY_ try to respond to arguments with sheer name-calling. Because the _truth_ would actually speak for itself. And in your case it _actually_ does.


SJ: "You have yet to point out even one bit of tripe I supposedly said anywhere."

Well, let's see...:


[SJ: " I don't use the definition "race" but rather people or a nation."

vs. SJ: "There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed."]



[SJ: "There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed."

Then that means that Jews are not a unique people then - and thus have _NO_ unique and sole claim to the land - no more than catholics, as such, have a unique and sole claim to France.

Then that means that their _sole_ "claim" to Palestine would be a religious one. And that would make them ALL look as absolutely NUTTY as those absolutely wacko Jewish religious fundamentalist settlers! ]



["Jews come in all skin complexions. 57% of Israeli Jews are non-Ashkenazi; quite a few Ashkenazi Jews are rather darked skinned while the reverse is true for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. But then you haven't studied these basics as you prefer the comfort zone of talking points."

NAtionalist ZIonism (like it's other NAZI white-supremacist variant based on blood) was a _European_ Jewish invention in the late 1800's. And you can tell it was a white invention, because the first thing they looked for when they had trouble was to go take it out on some non-white people.

Racism is not only based on whom you include, but whom - which ethnic group - you EXCLUDE - IDIOT.

When you target a certain group for ethnic cleansing, or say that they don't have an equal voice in the government of the land, or say that people of a certain ethnic group don't have a right to return, all based on their ethnicity, that's RACISM.

But, NOTHING will morally convince you of that because you're _ZIO_Nazis. It would be like trying to cnvince the _other_ Nazis that _they_ were morally wrong.]



[SD: "There's no Catholic language per se, no common Catholic history and culture. By contrast, there IS a common Jewish history, language, culture and religion, for Judaism is a fusion of peoplehood and religion, one of the only 2-3 in existence. Ergo Jews are a unique people, much to your chagrin."

So, if you are saying that they are "unique", then you've RACIALIZED Jews. A false racial construct from the Nazis (the other ones) - yet not even the Nazis could even tell most Gentiles and Jews apart - that the Zionists went along with for their own racist justifications and program of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

But... What language did German Jews speak? ...Were German Jews eating falafel, dancing to Arab music, and wearing robes and turbins?) ...What language did Russian Jews speak? ...What language did Swedish Jews speak? ...What language did French Jews speak? ...What language did Arab Jews speak? ...For that matter what CULTURE did Arab Jews practice, what cuisine did they eat, and who do they look like? They look like other Arabs. ...What language did Persian Jews speak? ...Did they eat the same kind of foods that English Jews ate for breakfast? ...What language did British or American Jews speak? ...What language do Latin American Jews speak? What kind of food do they eat? ...What language do Caribbean Jews speak? ...What langauge did "Peruvian Indian Jews" (remember when Israel 'discovered' "Peruvian Indian Jews"? - talk about a LAUGH)? ...What language did Ethiopian Jews speak? ...Did Polish Jews beat drums and dance the way Ethiopian Jews did - or other sub-Saharan black Jews?

The nationality, native language, foods, clothing, customs, music and culture of Jews is as different as the native languages, foods, customs, music and cultures of Catholics -- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language! ]



[SJ: "As for the Catholics, tell me which language did Catholics share"

Traditionally Latin.]



[SJ: "Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas."

Well, Latin was used for similar purposes. Does that mean that all Catholics are unique?]



[SJ: "Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas."

Well, the native language of British, French, Canadian, Latin American, Chinese, German, etc., Jews certainly wasn't _Hebrew_. ]



[SJ: "Besides the Church brass, only the priests were allowed to learn Latin -- the supposed holy Catholic language -- while the masses couldn't understand a damn word of Christmas Mass. Alright dumbass, will you please tell me??!"

Yeah, it was illegal to study Latin in the 19th & 20th century if you weren't a priest, right?

And speaking of _dumass retard_, what do you think _Christians_ spoke during the Roman Empire? And what language do you think _French_ comes from?]

Just in case you still don't know SJ, Christians spoke _LATIN_ during the Roman Empire. And French is a linguistic derivative of Latin.



[SJ: "Not all "Arab Jews" i.e. Sefaradim, Temanim and Mizrahim look like Arabs as you perceive the Arab appearance to be. I've already told you this but you're feebleminded, so you can't really learn new things."

You can't even generally tell a Jew from a Gentile in the the rest of the world (especially if they are of the same "race"), but you're going to tell me that you can tell all Arab Jews from all other Arabs? What do you do: do craniotomy measurements, head shapes, height measurements, arm lengths and hand sizes, like HITLER and the NAZI eugenicists and "racial hygienists" claimed they could tell from?]



[SJ: "Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews."

_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE?]



[SJ: "So what? You must be jealous to try to denigrate Judaism's traction this way."

Another DODGE.]



[>>SJ: "therefore THE JEWS HAVE A VALID CLAIM ON PALESTINE AS LONG AS THERE IS A SINGLE ZIONIST ALIVE."

>You _ARE_ a nut! "

SJ: "In other words, when you've got no valid refutation you throw out ad hominems and delude yourself you've solved the problem."

WELL, LET'S VERIFY IT: So, if every zionist is eliminated except Tia - because the "jihadis" couldn't catch her - she can still claim _ALL_ of Palestine? ]



["TELL US what country in the WORLD (including the primarily two imperialist powers who sponsored the zionist colonial state) would ever accept for ITSELF such a NUTTY argument and NUTTY claim from another such people? "

SJ: "You've performed a breathtaking feat of bunk logic by stringing a few fallacies together, so there's nothing to answer here. It's diversionary hokum."

Another DODGE.

Well, unravel it however you want! Which country in the world would ever accept a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent - that the European zionists made on Palestine (and which, in fact, no Palestinian Jews asserted) - including the two imperialist powers that sponsored Israel and _forced_ it on Palestine without consulting _any_ Palestinians? "Hey, Britain and America, we've come back to reclaim our ancient land from 2,000 years ago! We used to live there and there's still a handful of the old timers left. "

I expect another DODGE.

Britain and the U.S. would lock you up in the nearest insane asylum - which is where all you zionists really belong. (The U.S. won't even give back Native American land from 150 years ago.)]

Of course SJ _NEVER_ answered _that_ question.



["Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so. "

SJ: "Here you go again with the false "racist white people" refrain while you ignore in the same breath the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians."

Another DODGE.

Yeah, Europeans called anyone racist who resists colonization - even the Native Americans! Jews call resistance to colonization "anti-Semitism". You know what's "Nazi-like"?: _ethnic cleansing_ and thinking that you have an exclusive, racialized right to land and rule. Oh, and there's 'no' racism among Jews, huh?]

Of course, SJ _NEVER_ answered that question too.



[Okay, back to Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, and Phillimore...: your "legal luminaries". I gotta go out and catch a late breakfast and I don't have time to scrounge around with incomplete information on the internet.. Give me their first names - together with their last names - so I can do a google search. Now, let's see if these "legal luminaries" are - oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_! ]

And of course SJ _NEVER_ answered this question either. I wonder _WHY_?

Is _that_ enough TRIPE for you?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Read Lenni Brenner (he's one of the world's foremost scholars on Zionism)"

SJ: "I've got better things to do with my time than read anything authored by your pet revisionist historians like Schoenman and Brenner. Their unreliability is by now legendary. They've been exposed as frauds by academics and laypeople alike from both sides of the isle, not only Zionists."

You _ARE_ a comedian! So what about your _ISRAELI_ academic historians like Tom Segev and Benny Morris?: both _Zionists_ who've exposed Israeli lies from Israeli military documents about not ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Morris says it's true that Israel engaged in ETHNIC CLEANSING - and that the only fault is that Israel should have finished the job!

And if you're so bright then why don't _YOU_ take one thing that Brenner said from any of his books and refute it now?

(I have a feeling that ole SJ _CAN'T_ do that.)



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Well, Latin was used for similar purposes. Does that mean that all Catholics are unique? "

SJ: "Never for secular purposes among lay Catholics during the past 1,400 or so years, so your question is a non-sequitor."

And Chinese or Latin Jews were speaking Hebrew for the past 2,000 years. How come I know so many Jews in both Europe and North America that couldn't even ask where the bathroom is in Hebrew?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"ANOTHER DODGE because we ALL know the answer to my _series_ of questions. "

SJ: "The real dodge is yours because Hebrew was common to them all as a people's language used for secular purposes, let alone the religious ones as I explained."

Again, how come I know so many Jews in both Europe and North America that couldn't even ask where the bathroom is in Hebrew? Why don't any of my Jewish friends in London speak Hebrew if it's "common to them all"? (By the way, they've got some chuckles laughing at your comments too and reading you flailing away.)



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Jews generally spoke the language of their native country, whether that was Britain, French, Italy, Germany, Latin America, the Arab world, sub-Saharan Africa, or China. "

SJ: "But your pea-brain isn't distinguishing the last 210 years or so from the preceding period. Before the era of Enlightment dawned, the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were still speaking Yiddish while their Separdic counterparts were speaking Ladino. The Separdim continued collectively speaking among themselves Ladino until the mid 20th century. The Mideastern Sephardim and the Mizrahim spoke mainly Judeo-Arabic. So much for Jews speaking their native countries' languages."

Well, Yiddish is a Germanic language. It's not Hebrew. Ladin is not Hebrew. And Judeo-Arabic is not Hebrew. And English is not Hebrew - and that's the native language of all my British-/American-born Jewish friends in the UK or US. And Hebrew is not a "national language" because Jewish religious ancestors didn't have a country for 2,000 years. The nation-state is a modern invention. Anthropologically modern Jews and Hebrews/Israelites are not even the same people - not unless there were ancient Jews with blonde/light hair, white skin, wavey hair and blue eyes.

And I have a friend who is a Jewish linguist, who academic specialty is Middle Eastern languages, at a very prestigious university. I bet if I ask him about what you said, he could shoot tons of holes in your claim. I just know that Yiddish and Ladino and Judeo-Arabic and English isn't Hebrew. But, I know that you're too stupid to have any linguist professor friends that you commonly drink tea with.



SJ: "Your attempts to depict Hebrew as a "revived nationalist zionist language" don't change these facts"

Well, let's get you on the _RECORD_. Is it TRUE or NOT? Specifically, is Hebrew a revived common nationalist zionist language or not? (Let's see SJ step in _that_ one.)



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"And any Jew that I ever knew growing up or in college who wanted to speak Hebrew had to go take a _class_ in it yadda yadda blah blah "

SJ: 'Again, what has this got to do with the pre-Enlighment periods? You knew damn well I was referring to those eras and not to post-Enlightment."

Oh 'yeah'! _'Of course'_ I 'knew' that. _Anyone_ would 'know' that.

In other words, you're not denying what I said above. You have to go back to "the _PRE-_Enlightenment period". Well you got _me_! Uh-huh. That's _'real'_ convincing. (Right now everyone else who's not some zionist NUT is laughing too!) Is this the 21st century? And you're using "PRE-Enligtenment" arguments. Oh it's pre-enlightenment alright. (Here' where everyone who's not a zionist NUTCASE can LAUGH again!)



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Most of the Jews I know (and knew growing up) aren't even religious. yadda yadda blah blah"

SJ: "You know yourself that this fact doesn't anul the fact that all Jews as a people share the same religion."

Well, if they're NOT religious, then, logically, they can't be "sharing the same religion". I'm not religious and therefore I don't share the same religion with anyone - not even with my parents who _are_ religious, and I'm their flesh and blood.

But, then if you're saying that the Jews of all races: "Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed" [ isn't that ccalled ASIAN? ], but they all "share the same religion", then that means - by your reasoning - the only "claim" that Jews have on Palestine is a _RELIGIOUS_ claim, from 2,000 years ago! IS THAT _NUTTY_ OR WHAT?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"How many Jewish girls do you think wanted to spout that misogynist stuff about thanking God that someone wasn't born a woman?"

SJ: "How many of the Jews here hold you as an expert on all facets of Jewish life?"

I just lived with a Jewish girl who told me that she had a _real_ problem with that. (She _says_ she's Jewish and has an "ein" in her name. Is that Jewish?) Just going by what she said, among others.



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Many Jews in America live/d a socio culturally - though not religously - _Christian_ lifestyle and even celebrated Christmas! Just like when I had more culturally/religiously identified Jewish roommates we would all - Jewish and non-Jewish - religious and non-religious - celebrate Shabbat and Passover and other Jewish occasions."

SJ: "So you're essentially conceding this is actually a matter of adaptation of the minority group to the majority's religious and/or cultural practices. You spew so many things that don't refute my claims nor prove your ludicrous arguments from previous posts and waste bandwidth. However... to hear that such a proud antisemite like you didn't refuse to celebrate Jewish occasions -- what a laugh!"

YOU'RE the one yappin' on an on about "a common culture". So, those Jews who don't practice Judaism (and actually celebrate a the most important _Christian_ holiday) must not be Jewish and *I* must be, because I've shared more Jewish culture than many Jews I know, by virtue of living with a religious Jew. So, I guess that I'm not "anti-Semitic"; I'm actually "a _self-hating_ Palinazi Jew". (This is where everyone who's not a zionist NUT can LAUGH again.)



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Traditionally Latin. "

SJ: "That's a lie and you know it! You clearly lost on this one. There was *never* a period were the masses *everywhere* knew even a few Latin words."

Talk about _DUMASS_! Hey _IDIOT, MORON, IMBECILE_!: What language do you think was spoken and written in ancient _ROME_?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yeah, it was illegal to study Latin in the 19th & 20th century if you weren't a priest, right? What about all the Jews who had to learn to mumble something in Hebrew for their Bar/Bat Mitzvah that they barely understood - and never learned any Hebrew after that? They couldn't even ask where to go take a shit in Hebrew. Now what kind of dumasses are THEY? blah blah "

SJ: "As for the Jews and Hebrew in modern times -- yet more irrelevant obfuscation and diversion of attention. Too bad you can't skirt my point, which is that you can't refute Hebrew being a Jewish language all Jews used to utilize for secular purposes between remote diasporas (apparently you're ignorant about the existence of the the Cairo Geniza for instance)"

WELL HOW CAN "ALL JEWS" USE IT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE DIASPORAS IF THEY CAN'T EVEN _SPEAK_ OR _WRITE_ IT? (At least not most here in Britain or there in America.) What do you suppose is the native language of Jews in England or the USA or Canada (or for that matter in France, Italy, Spain, etc.)?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"You can't even generally tell a Jew from a Gentile in the the rest of the world (especially if they are of the same "race"), but you're going to tell me that you can tell all Arab Jews from all other Arabs?

SJ: "What a clown, purporting to know my character based off a limited exchange on a limited array of topics on one site in cyber. Only anti-Zionists could be that hilarious."

Okay, so then TELL US how you can tell all Jews from all gentiles just by _LOOKING_ at them?

And then you can tell us explicitly: ARE YOU A ZIONIST? _That'll_ tell us something about your character. Because you TALK like one and you use flimsy ARGUMENTS like one. Maybe you _QUACK_ like one, but you're really not one?




> - Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE?

SJ: "Oh but you see, you deliberately dropped the (linguistic) evidence I marshalled to that effect."

I know what the word "MAY" means - and so do most other people. It means you're not sure - that you're GUESSING/SUPPOSING. So, did Jews in England grow up on falafel sandwiches in pita bread? (This is where everyone who is not a zionist NUT can chuckle again.) And any time you want to argue linguistics I'll just go get my Jewish linguist professor friend to give your ass a good thrashing.



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yes, in the end, Israel resorts to bringing in almost anyone it can pass off as being Jewish [like "Christian Russian Jews" and "Peruvian Indian Jews", oh that second one is _really_ a laugh!], because the only way Israel can maintain a majority of Jews and "Jews" is through STATE INTERVENTION ngah ngah"

SJ: "Fallacious conclusion. You're twisted what I said into the contortion that suits your own rabid anti-Zionist agenda."

Israel has to bring in all those Jews because the natural Jewish population growth of Israel wouldn't be able to maintain a majority of Jews without Israeli state intervention. Otherwise, Jews in Israel would - once again - be a _minority_, as it was when Palestine was an Arab country/region and indigenous and immigrant Jews were a _tiny_ minority. Israeli Jews don't want to be a minority because then Palestine/Israel would even more clearly resemble apartheid South Africa where the white minority imposed an apartheid state on the majority indigenous/native population. So, the constant national RACIST pre-occupation in Israel is "too many Palestinians", just like Hitler was pre-occupied with "too many Jews".



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Well, the native language of British, French, Canadian, Latin American, Chinese, German, etc., Jews certainly wasn't _Hebrew_. "


You know, _THIS_ is _THE POINT_. The rest of what you said is just jibberish and it's ultimately diversionary.

But, even if every Jew in the world today spoke Hebrew as a common language -- which is _obviously_ NOT true -- that would still NOT morally entitle European and North American Jews to go displace the people who live in a particular land -- no matter that those Jews ancient religious ancestors once lived there (and those Hebrews weren't even the original inhabitants). No more than it would entitle WASP Americans to go en masse back to England, displace or drive off by arms the non-English people, and set up an American state, saying that Americans have the "right to return" because their religious ancestors came from England and they share a common language. Now a hint for you, personally: _YOU_ may not know how RIDICULOUS your arguments sound and what a fool I have made of you, but I can assure you that everyone else reading this, who is not a zionist NUTCASE, does. (You didn't even see gehrig trying to help you out.)

Zionism could only be carried out by FORCE OF ARMS because it is the most RIDICULOUS (indeed LAUGHABLE, but for all the ethniccleansing and killing) argument that anyone could make -- an argument that NO OTHER PEOPLE would EVER willingly accept.



Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names. "

SJ: "I did that."

Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"I glossed over it in all nyah nyah

SJ: "You stand refuted."

Yeah, you sound real convincing to everyone. So, what are the _complete_ names that you so CAREFULLY OMITTED?



Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Which country in the world would ever accept a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent ngah ngah"

SJ: 'Call this a dodge, but I simply don't care."

Well Hitler didn't care either.

As I said before, NOTHING will morally convince you of that because you're _ZIO_Nazis. It would be like trying to cnvince the _other_ Nazis that _they_ were morally wrong.

Look, Hitler and the Nazis just wanted the Jews gone and you guys, the Zio-Nazis, just want the Palestinians gone. You Zio-Nazis have used every method short of the gas chambers - and many methods, not only in their grossness, but especially in their meticulousness, similar to the Nazi Nuremburg Race Laws. And just like you said, "[you] simply don't care". Finally a moment of _PURE HONESTY_ on your part, when confronted with an undeniable truth, with no attempt to obfuscate.



This is it for me with you SJ. I think I deserve a slightly early lunch for putting up with you. Cheers!

Four thousand words from Jack Ass in spewage mode, and I'll bet not a one of them was worth reading.

@%<

JA argues that the Israelis displaced the Arabs in 1948 and created the refugee problem. I have argued that it was the culpability of the Arab leadership that caused the refugees. However in the interest of full disclosure, I do acknowledge three events in which it was the Israeli army that forced Arab flight.

FROM: "The Truth about the Arab Refugees of 1948"
compiled by Becky Johnson of the writings and research of David Meir-Levi found at: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/06/165753_comment.php#166083

DAVID MEIR-LEVI WRITES: "There were two more incidents (in addition to the actions noted above in #3) of Arab refugees being caused directly by Israeli army actions: Lydda and Ramle. Both villages sat astride the road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. As the siege on Jerusalem tightened, the Israeli forces knew that in order to save the Jews of west Jerusalem from defeat and possible annihilation, they had to keep that road open. So one night they entered both villages and forcibly drove out the Arab residents. They rousted them from bed and sent them walking across the fields to the area that was under Jordanian control (only a few kilometers away).

Note...none were killed. there was no massacre. but they were driven out. However, they were driven out (as I explained above in #3) because of the military exigency of the war.

BECKY: This happened in TWO villages. It was not done because of ethnic differences, but because the Israelis could not ascertain at the time who was an enemy combatant and who was an innocent civilian, and could not afford to take a chance.

After the war, the Israelis attempted to repatriate ALL Arab refugees.

LOL... like we care he enjoyed a gourmet meal. How about his "attractive friend" from Indybay? LMAO

I'll pass over some of the inane cackling BS retorts


SJ:
There exist Jews of every race -- Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed.

"Then that means that Jews are not a unique people then - and thus have _NO_ unique and sole claim to the land - no more than catholics, as such, have a unique and sole claim to France.

"Then that means that their _sole_ "claim" to Palestine would be a religious one. And that would make them ALL look as absolutely NUTTY as those absolutely wacko Jewish religious fundamentalist settlers! "

This is just a regurgitation of the mindless inane puke he had vomited in hopes of somehow invalidating the facts, as if people of different races can't make up a people or nation and the Jews lack also historical and legal claims to the land of Israel. The Jewish people is much older than the American people that includes individuals of every race on earth.


SJ:
Jews come in all skin complexions. 57% of Israeli Jews are non-Ashkenazi; quite a few Ashkenazi Jews are rather darked skinned while the reverse is true for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. But then you haven't studied these basics as you prefer the comfort zone of talking points.

"Nagh ngah When you target a certain group for ethnic cleansing, or say that they don't have an equal voice in the government of the land, or say that people of a certain ethnic group don't have a right to return, all based on their ethnicity, that's RACISM.

"But, NOTHING will morally convince you of that because you're _ZIO_Nazis. It would be like trying to cnvince the _other_ Nazis that _they_ were morally wrong."

Again, this is just a regurgitation of the mindless inane puke he had vomited in hopes of somehow invalidating the facts.


SJ:
There's no Catholic language per se, no common Catholic history and culture. By contrast, there IS a common Jewish history, language, culture and religion, for Judaism is a fusion of peoplehood and religion, one of only 2-3 in existence. Ergo Jews are a unique people, much to your chagrin.

"ngah ngah ngah The nationality, native language, foods, clothing, customs, music and culture of Jews is as different as the native languages, foods, customs, music and cultures of Catholics -- unless you want to say that the native language of Catholics is LATIN! Maybe the Catholics could resurrect LATIN as a common language!

Again, this is just a regurgitation of the mindless inane puke he had vomited in hopes of somehow invalidating the facts.
The Zionist Jews have already "resurrected" Hebrew (not in the fullest sense of the word; they simply adapted it to modern times and made it be spoken natively on a daily basis for all purposes). When the Catholics ever make Latin such a language spoken indigenously for every human purpose everywhere Catholic communities exist, be sure to update us.


SJ: As for the Catholics, tell me which language did Catholics share

"Traditionally Latin."

That was only true for the Catholics in what's presently Italy for a few centuries at most. That hardly accounts for the other Catholic communities elsewhere in the world -- Catholics never shared Latin everywhere on earth for secular purposes.


SJ:
Even if Hebrew was mainly used for liturgy and other religious purposes, it was also used for conversation when Jews from different diasporas e.g. Sephardi to Ashkenazi met, or in secular correspondence between these diasporas.

"Well, Latin was used for similar purposes. Does that mean that all Catholics are unique? "

Yo clownface, the question was wether Catholics constitute a distinct people or nation like the Jews are, and for more than just a common linguistic heritage or language. Every religion or sect of a given religion is unique in their own way. Clearly the Catholics were never a distinct people or nation.


SJ:
Besides the Church brass, only the priests were allowed to learn Latin -- the supposed holy Catholic language -- while the masses couldn't understand a damn word of Christmas Mass. Alright dumbass, will you please tell me??!

"Yeah, it was illegal to study Latin in the 19th & 20th century if you weren't a priest, right? "

Alright, I concede the point to you. I'm not free of mistakes.

"And speaking of _dumass retard_, what do you think _Christians_ spoke during the Roman Empire? ngah ngah

"Just in case you still don't know SJ, Christians spoke _LATIN_ during the Roman Empire. blah blah"

The dumbass retard thing I fired at you still stands, for Christians during the "Roman Empire" spoke Greek profusely, oftentimes as their main language.


SJ:
Not all "Arab Jews" i.e. Sefaradim, Temanim and Mizrahim look like Arabs as you perceive the Arab appearance to be. I've already told you this but you're feebleminded, so you can't really learn new things.

"ngah ngah ngah"

Here's an interesting tidbit. One famous DJ or ex-DJ in Israel, Ilan ben-Shahar, was born to Yemenite Jewish parents and he looks whiter than one would expect a Yemenite to seem.


SJ:
Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews.

"_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE?

I'll now present the entire argument.
I've since googled the terms "Tanakh", "houmous" and "pita" in Hebrew and found that an Israeli author, Meir Shalev, concurs with my claim above and posted an brief essay about it a few years ago.
In Ruth 2 verse 14, Bo`az invites Ruth during lunch recess to join him and his harvesters for a meal: "And Bo`az said unto her at meal-time: 'Come hither, and eat of the bread, and dip "pitekh" [my quotation marks; the word means "your pat" or "your pita"] in the "hometz"/"homes" [חומץ this word should be typed/written with a dot underneath to denote how this 's' was pronounced in biblical times, just like the corresponding Arabic consonant till this day]"
Houmous (only spelled חומוס and not חומוץ so that modern Israeli Hebrew pronunciation of the word is more in line with Arabic pronunciation) in modern Hebrew is "himtza" (חימצה) (ancient pronunciation would be pronounced "himsa" with a dot underneath the 's'). Some claim the name is derived from houmous' distinct property of souring quickly, others say the chickpea plant from which houmous is made secretes a somewhat stinging substance. Either way, himsa and houmous are derived from the same Semitic root word, ח.מ.צ.
But moreover, we must grasp the situation being described in that verse by the plain meaning: Boa`z employs harvesters and once mealtime arrives he gives 'em lunch. The harvest is hard physical labor, the heat is daunting, and if you wish for your laborers to keep on powering through also afternoon, you don't serve them bread dipped in vinegar (this is the usual translation of "hometz" in Hebrew and denotes how it should be translated everywhere else in the Jewish Bible), not even balsamic. No, you give them satisfying, filling and strength renewing fare, and so, the expression "v'tavalt pitekh ba-hometz/s" is to be interpreted as "wiping houmous with pita bread", just as is done in modern times across the oriental Muslim and Mediterranean expanses.
Many claims can be raised against this interpretation. Firstly, one may argue that the chickpea legume (himtza) isn't mentioned in the Jewish Bible at all. Well, in Isiah it is said that the beasts will feed on a mixture of "hamitz", and the scholar Yehuda Felix reads this to mean a mixture of himtza.And besides, the Bible doesn't refer to the legume called "beans", nor to the carob tree, nor to the lake called Kineret, and the animal known as the cat isn't alluded to.
Secondly, everywhere else in the Bible where "hometz" is brought up, the meaning is vinegar (the variety known then as vinegar "ben yayin") and not houmous. But all those places denote "hometz" as a substance better not put into one's mouth: one psalmist complains "and in my thirst they gave me hometz [vinegar] to drink" (Psalms 69, 22). Would you serve such a substance to your thirsty and hungry laborers? Is that what you'd serve your lover on your first date?
Finally, note that the Hebrew word "pat" (פת) and "pitekh" (פתך -- the form used in the relevant verse) come from the same root word as Arabic "pita".


JA:
"nagh ngah a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent - that the European zionists made on Palestine (and which, in fact, no Palestinian Jews asserted) - including the two imperialist powers that sponsored Israel and _forced_ it on Palestine without consulting _any_ Palestinians? ngah nagh ngah cluck"

(a) You forgot to count the Yemenites the few other non-Ashkenizim who arrived since 1881.

(b) It's inaccurate to claim all "Palestinian" Jews didn't assert a claim to the land of Israel. The local Karaite Jews were always harbored more nationalistic sentiments than their rabbinite counterparts in Palestine. Some of these Jews were descended from the pseudo-Zionist Karatie Mourners of Zion movement that was prominent among the land Jewish population in the end of the 1st millennium AD and beginning of ensuing millennium and urged Jews everywhere to immigrate to the land of Israel to increase the chances of a national redemption. They succeeded in getting the land's Jewish populace to consist of a Karaite majority.

(c) The Arabs of the land were given a state of their own by the same vicious UN that had no right to "give away" and of the land to the Jews according to you stalwart antisemites. It's high tie both you and the Palis got a life for a change.


"Yet racist white people - who've gone all over the ENTIRE world taking people's land (and/or resources, like the U.S. is tyring to do in Iraq) and oppressing them - expect Palestinians to do so. "

SJ:
Here you go again with the false "racist white people" refrain while you ignore in the same breath the Nazi-like racism rampant among the Palestinians.

"Another DODGE.

Yeah, Europeans called anyone racist who resists colonization - even the Native Americans! Jews call resistance to colonization "anti-Semitism". You know what's "Nazi-like"?: _ethnic cleansing_ and thinking that you have an exclusive, racialized right to land and rule. Oh, and there's 'no' racism among Jews, huh?] "

"Of course, SJ _NEVER_ answered that question too."

And you never answered the question of whether there's racism among blacks. Nor did you acknowledge that there's racism among Palestinians.


"Okay, back to Buswell, Wheaton, Clifford, and Phillimore...: your "legal luminaries". I gotta go out and catch a late breakfast and I don't have time to scrounge around with incomplete information on the internet.. Give me their first names - together with their last names - so I can do a google search. Now, let's see if these "legal luminaries" are - oh I wonder - _ZIONISTS_ or _IMPERIALISTS_!

And of course SJ _NEVER_ answered this question either. I wonder _WHY_? "

Because I don't hold the hand for an infantile racist baiter like you when you need to perform some research and proceed to shriek in protest when he doesn't want to perform it and probably can't anyway.

"Is _that_ enough TRIPE for you? "

Your tripe has been more than enough, ten times over at least.


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Read Lenni Brenner (he's one of the world's foremost scholars on Zionism)"

I've got better things to do with my time than read anything authored by your pet revisionist historians like Schoenman and Brenner. Their unreliability is by now legendary. They've been exposed as frauds by academics and laypeople alike from both sides of the aisle, not only Zionists.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"You _ARE_ a comedian! So what about your _ISRAELI_ academic historians like Tom Segev and Benny Morris?"

The latter at least has ditched his shoddy research and recanted many of the ridiculous statements he had made and which you keep parroting ad infinitum in every forum.

"Morris says it's true that Israel engaged in ETHNIC CLEANSING - and that the only fault is that Israel should have finished the job! "

Morris didn't accuse Israel of wholesale ethnic cleansing across the whole land. He only settled for the contention that Israel committed ethnic cleansing in Ramle, Lydda and several other locations. He also confirmed earlier widely accepted Zionist assertions that many Arabs had left the land at the urging of the High Arab Committee and neighboring governments before warfare even broke out, while many other fled -- weren't driven away by force -- as the war raged on.

"And if you're so bright then why don't _YOU_ take one thing that Brenner said from any of his books and refute it now? "

Stop deflecting. We're waiting for your refutations of Buswell et al.


- [Latin was] Never [used] for secular purposes among lay Catholics during the past 1,400 or so years, so your question is a non-sequitor.

"And Chinese or Latin Jews were speaking Hebrew for the past 2,000 years. blah blah"

{Chuckle} This is hilarious; what the hell are Latin Jews?


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"ANOTHER DODGE because we ALL know the answer to my _series_ of questions. "


Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Jews generally spoke the language of their native country, whether that was Britain, French, Italy, Germany, Latin America, the Arab world, sub-Saharan Africa, or China. "

SJ:
But your pea-brain isn't distinguishing the last 210 years or so from the preceding period. Before the era of Enlightment dawned, the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were still speaking Yiddish while their Sephardic counterparts were speaking Ladino. The Separdim continued collectively speaking among themselves Ladino until the mid 20th century. The Mideastern Sephardim and the Mizrahim spoke mainly Judeo-Arabic. So much for Jews speaking their native countries' languages.

Addendum: (1) Since Ashkenazi Jews were speaking Yiddish, they weren't *generally* speaking the native languages of their host countries like German, Polish, Hungarian, Ukranian, White-Russian, Romanian, Check, Slovakian, Serbo-Croatian, Dutch, Flemish, French. (2) Since Sefardi Jews in Europe were *generally* speaking Ladino, they weren't speaking the native languages of their host countries like Dutch, Flemish, English, etc. The Sephardic Jews that continued speaking *generally* Ladino in the Middle East weren't usually speaking Arabic.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Well, Yiddish is a Germanic language. It's not Hebrew."

Expect that Hebrew makes up to 30 or 40% of its vocabulary.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Ladin is not Hebrew. And Judeo-Arabic is not Hebrew."

And yet these too consist of a some Hebrew vocabulary.
Most of us fail to even see if you have a point, let alone what it is.

Juif Antagoniste:
"And Hebrew is not a "national language" because Jewish religious ancestors didn't have a country for 2,000 years. The nation-state is a modern invention. "

(a,) What holds true for most nations isn't necessarily so for a nation or people whose religion is a fusion of religion and peoplehood like Judaism.
(b.) You haven't done your homework on this point, too. The ancient independent Jewish state 142 BC- 63 BC was an ancient version of a nation-state. So was Rome. So was Egypt prior to the Persian Empire that preceded Alexander the Macedonian. And the Hittites, and the unified Israelite kingdom, and the Israelite and Judahite kingdoms that spit from it... Nation-states in modern times are the modern incarnation. You're way out of your league to be taken seriously.

Juif Antagoniste:
"Anthropologically modern Jews and Hebrews/Israelites are not even the same people - not unless there were ancient Jews with blonde/light hair, white skin, wavey hair and blue eyes. "

You're effectively implying that all modern Jews actually have "Ariyan" traits. {Rumbling laughter on the floor} Yawn....

Juif Antagoniste:
"And I have a friend who is a Jewish linguist, who academic specialty is Middle Eastern languages, at a very prestigious university. I bet if I ask him about what you said, he could shoot tons of holes in your claim."

Which claim would that be, skippy?


SJ:
Your attempts to depict Hebrew as a "revived nationalist zionist language" don't change these facts.

"Well, let's get you on the _RECORD_. Is it TRUE or NOT? Specifically, is Hebrew a revived common nationalist zionist language or not? "

I'll expand on the point regarding Eliezer ben Yehuda whom you're understandably too afraid to touch. In popular perception, he's been credited with reviving or resurrecting Hebrew during the span of 41 yrs. split almost evenly between the 19th and last century. But the truth is he actually helped bring it up to speed with the demands of modernity as per his period by innovating many words that hadn't existed. Yet he drew not only on Arabic and Aramaic, but also biblical, Mishnaic and Middles Ages Hebrew as the latter was written and spoken, even as used occasionally for secular purposes between Jews of different diasporas (Separdi, Askenazi, Yemenite, Juhurim, Italqim, etc) meeting or corresponding in writing.
So, Hebrew is an old, common Jewish national language imbued with modernity thanks to the likes of ben Yehuda and a few other dedicated Zionist Hebrew enthusiasts during the first half of last century.

Now we're about to reenter the laughter zone:

Juif Antagoniste:
"Most of the Jews I know (and knew growing up) aren't even religious. yadda yadda blah blah"

SJ:
You know yourself that this fact doesn't anul the fact that all Jews as a people share the same religion.

Juif Antagoniste:
"Well, if they're NOT religious, then, logically, they can't be "sharing the same religion""

Bwahahahahahaha! You haven't tweaked your lithium dosage the right way. Only the clergymen of certain religions worldwide have ordained this. One of them is Samaritanism; a member of that people and religion would be excommunicated if they stopped being religious. This may have been true for Jews as well in ancient times and the Middle Ages, but no more.

As for you, you once told "us" you had been Catholic. I don't care if you're a non-practicing Catholic or a Muslim -- you're either Christian or Muslim, nominally. That is, unless you formally exited Catholicism and never entered a new religion in any formal manner as per that religion's requirements. You see, one of my cousins in the US has been religionless since birth; he was never formally brought into any creed even though he has practiced some elements of Judaism. That's clearly not your case.

"But, then if you're saying that the Jews of all races: "Caucasian, Negroid (and the complexions in between) and slanted eyed" [ isn't that called ASIAN? ], but they all "share the same religion", then that means - by your reasoning - the only "claim" that Jews have on Palestine is a _RELIGIOUS_ claim, from 2,000 years ago! blah blah"

That's apparently all that it means in your mentally and intellectually stunted perception.


Antisemitic dumbass:
"How many Jewish girls do you think wanted to spout that misogynist stuff about thanking God that someone wasn't born a woman?"

SJ:
How many of the Jews here [note I said "here" i.e. in this forum, namely those posting and not only reading] hold you as an expert on all facets of Jewish life?

Antisemitic dumbass:
I just lived with a Jewish girl who told me that she had a _real_ problem with that. Just going by what she said, among others. "

Yawn...........................


Antisemitic dumbass:
"Many Jews in America live/d a socio culturally - though not religously - _Christian_ lifestyle and even celebrated Christmas! Just like when I had more culturally/religiously identified Jewish roommates we would all - Jewish and non-Jewish - religious and non-religious - celebrate Shabbat and Passover and other Jewish occasions."

SJ:
So you're essentially conceding this is actually a matter of adaptation of the minority group to the majority's religious and/or cultural practices. You spew so many things that don't refute my claims nor prove your ludicrous arguments from previous posts and waste bandwidth. However... to hear that such a proud antisemite like you didn't refuse to celebrate Jewish occasions -- what a laugh!

Antisemitic dumbass:
"YOU'RE the one yappin' on an on about "a common culture". So, those Jews who don't practice Judaism (and actually celebrate a the most important _Christian_ holiday) must not be Jewish and *I* must be, because I've shared more Jewish culture than many Jews I know, by virtue of living with a religious Jew. "

Bub, let me help you here (well, I know you're too stunted in mind power to grasp it, but at least other readers might benefit): since Judaism is a fusion of peoplehood and religion, practicing Jewish religious rites in any quantity isn't sufficient for making one a Jew. For one to become a Jew, one must also *accept* Judaism as their religion AND the Jewish people as their people. In other words, when one becomes a Jew religiously they simultaneously join the Jewish people. This is the principle in every Jewish denomination I know -- certainly the Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, and Karaite (biblical, non-rabbinic Judaism).
Those Jews who don't practice Judaism but haven't completely renounced it as their religion and still consider the Jewish people their own are still Jewish notwithstanding your desperate thrashing with these concepts.


Antisemitic dumbass:
"Traditionally Latin. "

SJ:
That's a lie and you know it! You clearly lost on this one. There was *never* a period were the masses *everywhere* knew even a few Latin words.

Antisemitic dumbass:
Talk about _DUMASS_! Hey _IDIOT, MORON, IMBECILE_!: What language do you think was spoken and written in ancient _ROME_?

Yawn.........................................


SJ:
Part of Arab cuisine may have been appropriated from the Israelites or Jews.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"_MAY_ HAVE? Sounds pretty shakey! Can't you do better than _MAY_ HAVE?

SJ:
Oh but you see, you deliberately dropped the (linguistic) evidence I marshalled to that effect.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"I know what the word "MAY" means - and so do most other people. It means you're not sure - that you're GUESSING/SUPPOSING. bkah lbah cluck cluck "

See the case I outlined above regarding houmous and pita bread in the biblical Ruth book, though I'm sure you won't ever agree, no matter how solid the evidence or compelling the case.

Antisemitic dumbass:
" And any time you want to argue linguistics I'll just go get my Jewish linguist professor friend to give your ass a good thrashing. "

I'm waiting for a refutation of the case I've made for those two dietary staples. Whoever this due is, he's got his work cut out for him if he's even remotely interested in helping you to demolish my case. If he'll want to rescue you but is honest, you'll probably have to wait for eternity as he'll likely shrug you off politely or something.


Antisemitic dumbass:
"Yes, in the end, Israel resorts to bringing in almost anyone it can pass off as being Jewish [like "Christian Russian Jews" and "Peruvian Indian Jews", oh that second one is _really_ a laugh!], because the only way Israel can maintain a majority of Jews and "Jews" is through STATE INTERVENTION ngah ngah"

SJ:
Fallacious conclusion. You're twisted what I said into the contortion that suits your own rabid anti-Zionist agenda.

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Israel has to bring in all those Jews because the natural Jewish population growth of Israel wouldn't be able to maintain a majority of Jews without Israeli state intervention. Otherwise, Jews in Israel would - once again - be a _minority_, as it was when Palestine was an Arab country/region and indigenous and immigrant Jews were a _tiny_ minority. "

Not so much true. Apparently you've been too busy with your usual non-productive vanities to notice the new research from this year that found the Palis in the disputed territories to number only about 2.5 million and that the Jews will outstrip Arabs by a 2:1 ration in 20 years time if the current demographic trends continue but aren't sped up in the Jews' favor. Meanwhile, Palestinian birthrates have been steadily dropping. See more on http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/06/165946.php. What I told Meyer London at the bottom holds for you too.

Juif Antagoniste:
"Israeli Jews don't want to be a minority because then Palestine/Israel would even more clearly resemble apartheid South Africa where the white minority imposed an apartheid state on the majority indigenous/native population."

It's a non-issue now because it's not in the cards for Jews to become a minority even if they hold onto Judea-Samaria for the next century.

Juif Antagoniste:
"So, the constant national RACIST pre-occupation in Israel is "too many Palestinians", just like Hitler was pre-occupied with "too many Jews".

Some Israelis, notably, the mainstream edia and the government, officially ignore the findings of these studies and prefer -- for their own personal gain -- to continue the mendacious scaremongering. Hopefully they'll be thwarted in their paths (no call for violence here) before they relinquish the entiure territory in question or at least they'll get their comeuppance eventually.


Antisemitic dumbass:
"But, even if every Jew in the world today spoke Hebrew as a common language -- which is _obviously_ NOT true -- that would still NOT morally entitle European and North American Jews to go displace the people who live in a particular land -- no matter that those Jews ancient religious ancestors once lived there."

Go and "displace"? False presentation. (Note how he never mentions non-Ashkenazi Jews or the rights of the indigenous Jews he constantly ignores.)

Antisemitic dumbass:
"Now a hint for you, personally: _YOU_ may not know how RIDICULOUS your arguments sound and what a fool I have made of you, but I can assure you that everyone else reading this, who is not a zionist NUTCASE, does. (You didn't even see gehrig trying to help you out.) "

(a.) I don't need anyone to "help me out". I'm a bit puzzled why you didn't urge gehrig, "yo gehrig, come pick up yer Zionist boy and remove him from da battlefield!" though.
(b.) Anyone here who read Indybay and SF-IMC before regularly knows you view *anyone* who disagrees substantially with even one of your political tenets on any matter as a Zionist. So your assertion is dismissed out of hand.


"Zionism could only be carried out by FORCE OF ARMS ngah ngah nagh cluck cluck "

As were many other national movements for independence of a certain people in a country, historic homeland or not.


Clowning antisemitic dumbass:
"It's _YOUR_ case. _YOU_ support it with names. "

SJ:
I did that.

Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"I glossed over it in all nyah nyah "

SJ: You stand refuted.

Clowning antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Yeah, you sound real convincing to everyone. So, what are the _complete_ names that you so CAREFULLY OMITTED?"

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn.......


Antisemitic dumbass:
"Which country in the world would ever accept a claim - especially by a 99.9% non-native people from a faraway land on another continent ngah ngah"

SJ:
Call this a dodge, but I simply don't care [whatsoever!].

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"Well Hitler didn't care either. nghah ngah puke fart belch snarl snivel puke vomit hiss spit"

Go threaten someone that you'll come to their home and kill them as you did in one scene captured in one of the earliest videos or the report below a still photo featuring on zombietime. Keyboard warring doesn't cut it for a firebrand Palinazi.

Antisemitic Palinazi dumbass:
"This is it for me with you SJ. I think I deserve a slightly early lunch for putting up with you. Cheers!"

Make sure you don't screw up the medications and their dosages. It's an intricate balance, you know.

Those claims are based on ethnic cleansing that took place three thousand years ago and enforced by ethnic cleansing today. They are no more valid than the Nazis claim that Aryans had a right to rule Europe. They are just more racist bullsh*t.

More recently, the Palestinians laid claims on Palestine based on ethnic cleansing that took place over more than a millennium since the seventh century and coupled with self-imposed Jewish ethnic cleansing last year. They are no more valid than the Nazis claim that Aryans had a right to rule Europe. They are just racist bullsh*t. At least some Jews point back to events that took place in Palestine in a period whose protagonists proceeded to die out except for the Israelites who mainly incarnated into the Jews.

Just like Monty Python.

Just like Monty Python. It's a trick. Don't fall for it.

People who do stuff like this can't be trusted to be telling the truth about anything.

This is bunk logic. One cannot see what another person means.

You mean *this* debate coach?

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/1698659.php

(snip)

debate coach

(snip)

You mean *this* just wondering?

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/1698659.php

(snip)

just wondering

(snip)

Nesse droppings stunt another thread