Hey Joe;

You say nelow that two things can destroy your organization – initiating violence and associating with Nazis.

Your answer to the problems you face?

Initiate violence.

Bright.

It’s so striking. Months ago now Andy Ramirez, that traitor to his people, wrote of you "You don't incite violence. It's racist crap. Emotions are hot to begin with. What he says is insensitive, disrespectful and racist. It's neo-Nazi thuggery. What's next, the sheet and hood?"

Seems that way, doesn’t it?

And, actually, disassociating yourself from white supremacists will be impossible, since you are one, and since the open Nazis are your most natural allies.

Oh, you’re Not a white supremacist, you say?

Then what’s this?

Americans, you say, “are tired of watching their great American culture disappear, only to watch it be replaced by other cultures that are inferior and contradictory to everything this country was built upon.”

A headline on your website reads “Aren't you tired of watching your state turn into a third world cesspool right before your eyes?”

Your website is riddled with racist images and fiercely racist stereotypes of the Mexican people.

I don’t need to belabor the obvious – a number of people have researched and documented the ideological and rhetorical identity between yourself and your organization, on one hand, and white supremacist organizations on the other – and of course, the personal ties and relationships have been noted as well, repeatedly.

As if that weren’t enough, you make it very plain that your agenda is race war when you write, “Many suggest that violence is coming to California. Many suggest that a civil war of sorts may be on the horizon.”

It is inevitable that with that outlook your only recourse now is to create more violence – your outlook demands it, yearns for it, embraces it and works toward it. Haven’t you noticed that you’re always “seething with anger” as you yourself put it?

It is bitterly amusing to watch you whine that the police don’t protect you – what small town pig would ever protect you, after you declared war on the little town of Baldwin Park?

Fool.

You put yourself in the position you’re in, you’re not a “victim,” much less are you “oppressed.” No one is sabotaging you but you, yourself. YOU ARE the problem.



You blame the Laguna Beach Police Department, saying they “may have sought to foster such an environment so that we can be tied to these White Supremacists and thus lead to our organiztion being discredited or marginalized.”

Damn.

It wasn’t the PIGS who brought the Nazis along, who demonstrated with them in Baldwin Park , in Victorville and at Laguna Beach 1, it wasn’t the PIGS who allowed the Nazis to publicize and promote your events. It wasn’t the PIGS who refused to renounce Nazism and white supremacy – it was YOU – and you still refuse to renounce them – you only want a comfortable distance – not because you disagree with them, but only because it “looks bad.”

Pitiful.

You don’t need other white nationalists to make you look bad – your organization IS a white nationalist group, one preaching the superiority of white “culture” and seeking by all means to ensure white cultural dominance and to “ethnically cleanse” the US.

You never admitted that to yourself did you – that the purpose of SOS is ethnic cleansing.



Neither are you destined for the Hitlerian “greatness” you imagine is your birthright. What you’re destined for is prison, and at the rate you’re going it will happen sooner than later. You’re not destined for the White House any more than Custer was – although he thought otherwise, too.

Although you think you’re clever and original with your “blitzkrieg” tactics taken from Hitler and Custer, the reality is that your over-inflated sense of yourself and your power - your sense of your own impunity – is going to destroy you.

There is nothing you can do about it short of waking up and repenting of your arrogance and overt racism. And that doesn’t seem too likely, Joe.

Any SOS member with a lick of sense would bolt from you like a wild horse – like OC Angel did after the Nazi flags flew over you at Laguna Beach.

Well, this is wasted breath, I imagine. Check you at Ruby Ridge, “patriot.”

Or is that the Little Big Horn?

------------------------

Joe Turner Wrote:

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3928

Hello Patriots:

I have been seething with anger since the rally, analyzing and thinking about how to proceed with this organization. Let me clear some things up.

There isn't another organization in the history of the anti-illegal immigration movement (as far as I know) that has been as aggressive and in your face on a sustained basis. Thus, this problem has never presented itself.

Others suggest that since other organizations do not have this problem, that we are somehow doing something wrong or insufficient. First, no other organization protests under the dynamics that we protest. We are out in the public for any and all to see and participate in. Law enforcement agencies have told us repeatedly that they will not/cannot do anything to keep us separate from anyone else.

The solution to this problem is one that requires a hardline approach and one that may not be amenable to some here. But, I see no other way to handle this situation, other than to quit. Quitting is not an option. We are fighters and we will fight through this obstacle and on to victory.

There are two things that can really harm our organization, the initiating of violence and working in concert with White Supremacists. With recent actions by some law enforcement agencies, I am begining to think that there is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our organization.

In all but one rally (before the goons even started showing up), we as an organization have always initiated contact with the local police department to work with them in an attempt to have a successful/peaceful event. We have made numerous concessions in attempts to alleviate their concerns, allay fears, etc. This has been done by being flexible on rally locations, parking requests, etc.

We have always worked in good faith with the police departments.

In Alhambra, we saw the police department behave in an openly antagonistic fashion. After repeated contacts between myself and LastGreatHope and the police department in which we strongly asked for our group to be separated from the opposition and where we had agreed to occupy one corner to ourselves, Alhambra PD failed to follow through.

They allowed the socialists/anarchists to scream, blow whistles and blare bullhorns in our ears. Literally, an inch from our ears. They allowed them to yell in our faces...within inches, so that spittle flew into our face. They allowed the opposition to jostle us on the sidewalk, take little potshots, elbows, etc.

I specifically demanded separation on site with the officer in charge and others and they blew us off and stated that they could not legally separate us. I stated that they obviously could separate us to keep the peace and prevent violence (mind you, this event occured after BP I where a rally participant was sent to ICU) and that municipalites had done so for years whenever groups like the KKK rallied. Every local police department cordons them off from the public. There is absolutely no reason why the violent goons that have attacked us cannot be cordoned off as well.

I stated that bullhorns in my ear and the possibility of hearing loss/ear trauma constituted assault and that if they did not take immediate action I would physically protect myself from such activity. It is absolutely unconscionable that any police department would allow members of our organization to be surrounded where we could easily be shanked and no one would see it.

It was at this point that I grabbed some copper piping and turned around so that my back was to the street and I was facing our opponents. I was fully prepared to defend myself if need be and to illustrate the seriousness of the matter and the need for immediate action.



Lo and behold, a few minutes later, Alhambra PD began to separate our organization from the socialists/anarchists. Apparently, the Supreme Court returned a decision in the 15 minutes between their telling me that they could not separate us and their eventual separation of our groups.

It is my belief that Alhambra PD wanted us to get intimidated by the opposition and to subsequently leave. It worked to some degree as some members could not locate our scattered group and proceeded to return home instead of facing the rabid opposition by themselves.

It is my belief that Alhambra PD may have wanted members of Save Our State to lash out and initiate conflict with an attempt to sabotage our movement and our organization.

Fast forward to this weekend's Laguna Beach rally. The officers were incredibly hostile and antagonistic. When they chose to enforce the law, it was lopsided against our organization and our law abiding members. I firmly believe, that the members of these police departments believe that they can take great liberty in demanding that our members make concessions to keep the peace and that they are willing to basically allow anything to happen short of an actual outbreak of violence. This means that they will allow the goons to violate laws, try to physically threaten and intimidate our members, etc.

At one point when a goon was thrusting his bullhorn in my face, the officer walked over to me and told me to walk away. I told him that they would follow us anywhere we walked. And this was proven a shorttime later when I took my members to a spot some 20 yards away and the goons were allowed to follow, get in our faces, jostle us, spit on us, etc.

Two members of Save Our State, including myself were spat upon. In my particular instance, an officer was standing right there and he refused to do anything even after I demanded that an arrest be made. In fact, I was the one treated like a criminal as I was marched down the road by two other officers with my hands slammed behind my back. To my knowledge, LBPD did not even take the name of the person who spat in my face.

We made numerous requests for separation. We were told to pound sand. It is my belief that LBPD may have sought to foster such an environment so that we can be tied to these White Supremacists and thus lead to our organiztion being discredited or marginalized.

Save Our State has worked in good faith and given law enforcement agencies the benefit of the doubt. We have asked that our rights be protected, that our persons be protected and that our property be protected. We have been attacked repeatedly and we have bit our tongues and refused to be baited into a response.

In order to solve these problems (hostile opposition, white supremacists and antagonistic police departments) I will be instituting the following steps before we have another event.

1. I will refuse to contact or respond to or work with any police department that has been openly antagonistic to our organization. Police Departments will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt and Save Our State will be less likely to make concessions.

2. We will implement a pre-rally gathering system so that we can enter our rally in unison with the bulk of our members, instead of straggling in.

3. The members of our organization will be self cordoning off our members from White Supremacists and the anarchists/socialists/mechistas, etc. I mean, we will literally have able bodied men standing post at each side and we will tape our boundary off.

4. Any attempt by a member of the opposition to enter or get within spitting distance of our self-designated area, will be physically repelled with the requisite force. The police departments in question have abrogated their duties to protect citizens and to ensure their first amendment rights. In light of their voluntary abrogation, the members of Save Our State will hereby exercise our rights as free Americans and defend ourselves.

5. Any attempt to encroach upon our position by the opposition will be viewed as an attempt to incite a riot/violence and an attempt to assault and inflict bodily harm.

6. Irresponsible and antagonistic actions by police departments will be met with civil litigation.



It is incredibly unfortunate that we have to take these measures to protect our viability. Nevertheless, these steps must be done.

What I find fascinating about this is the apparent disreguard for the fact that the Internet and inexpensive digital cameras makes attempting to hide one's affiliations pretty much impossible -- more so when one posts photographs of oneself and one's colleagues to the Internet in places where an opposition can acquire them and start putting names and affiliations together.

I've also not seen the expected mass public relations effort to try to proclaim that the documentary photographic evidence is some how not indicative of the allegations that SOSMM et al. are intimately entwined with well known white supremist and other neo-Nazi individuals, groups, and organizations.

They can't deny the existance of these latest series of photographs; they can't claim they're doctored forgeries. All they can claim is "we didn't invite them!" and also try to spin who their actual membership and support base is by proclaiming, "We have racists!" -- which all winds up rather lame.

I think what remains is determining what _percentage_ of SOSMM et al. supporters, defenders, advocates, members, participants et al. are known white supremists, and what percentage are opposed to such ideologies. I'm not so sure SOSMM can claim the white superemists, neo-Nazis, and racist bigots are in the minority; not when we have photographs like these and open discussion forums the SOSMM et al. maintain themselves.

Interesting, any way.

Suppose a popular rock band like Rage Against the Machine wanted to have a small reunion event, say, at a 1,000 seat concert venue. Just suppose.

Would that be realistic?

Of course not. They can, maybe, do that concert at a larger venue like the sports arena or the Staples Center. There are things people want, and things that people will get.

SOS wants to do militant anti-illegal-immigrant street demonstrations that appeal to the mainstream.

That's not what they get.

> Internet and inexpensive digital cameras

yeah the internet shows who links to their website but pictures really have much more impact as anyone who sees them instantly get's the message without any connecting-the-dots required - nazi and SOS signs in the same frame tells you all you need to know

they thought they would shed the racist image by talking their way out of it and they might have been able to with only pages of links like I posted since that's just a war of words but there's no denying the pictures - Duane's doing a really good job getting optimal resolution and clairity plus keeping on it and Leslie, Next Move, El Chivo and others are too - whoever posts pictures especially of nazi and SOS together are doing exactly the right thing to drive home this point that SOS is in bed with them

They can argue about who's members of what but the pictures cut across such excuses and eliminate any dispute..

The best I can offer is links and traffic graphs in this situation, but it just goes to show how people can have differences in personalities and values yet still work together for a common cause greater than any one person or group and accomplish more - this being the spirit of IMC

Reading this I notice that Sr. Turner has decided to do the exact things he said will destroy his organization.

That's pretty pathological.

Anyone following a leader like that is following him down the road to hell, and this is what Sr. Turner is paving it with.

Instead of the theatrics along the US/Mex imaginary border what we really need is for the people of US and Mex to join forces and give our corrupt governments (GW Bush / V. Fox) the boot..

Fox (former Coca-cola Mexico exec) sold the people of Chiapas down the river, in fact, he sold their river's aquifer headwaters to coca-cola. In the US, Nestle and Coca-cola is playing the same game with the aquifers of Florida, Michigan, Cali and elsewhere. Part of the GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, PPP, and other BS globalization programs, people everywhere are witnessing their community aquifers running dry while water bottling corporations profit. If this isn't a rallying cry that transcends language, culture, ethnicity, etc., than i don't know what is..

"Water is also an indispensable resource for the development of transnational agro-industries, which need irrigation systems for their plantations on the plains and their greenhouses. The same thing is true for soft drink bottling companies, like Coca-Cola (Fox vis-à-vis Zedillo/Union Pacific), which, following the Fox victory, increased its facilities in Chiapas by obtaining a change in ground use for the extraction, processing and bottling of water in the richest aquifer in the Jovel Valley (San Cristóbal de las Casas), located in the Huitepec foothills, an ecological reserve administered by Pronatura (a conservation NGO, whose funding comes, in part, from Coca-Cola Mexico)."



http://www.organicconsumers.org/chiapas/091202_chiapas.cfm

The Minutemen's acronym SOS (Save Our State) is also called Save Our Springs by a group of Floridians protecting Florida's limestone aquifers from theft and plunder by coca-cola/Nestle..

http://www.saveamericaswater.com/fl/

So maybe the Minutemen/SOS vigilantes who were gettin schwilly sitting in the Sonoran desert peering through binoculars can migrate their patriotic gun totin' asses over to Florida and help the other SOS activists defend the rivers from corporate theft by Nestle and coca-cola. If you really love your country, why don't u defend her water from corporate plunder??



luna moth

Ok , so Joey went over the Nazi's to say... 'uh, what do you think your doing?'

And you all are saying that this means affiliation ?

What part of the statements on the save our state board about not wanting anything to do with them do you not get?

Sorry, unlike you indy goon facista's , we will not try to control folks right to assemble. Stop shredding the Constitution symbolically with your looney irrational rantings.

1. You don't deny that

a. Turner is a racist.

b. That his ideology is a white supremacist ideology

c. That the purpose of your organization is to create the conditions for ethnic cleansing

d. That the SOS website is riddled with racist images and stereotypes of Mexicans

e. That Turner sees a race war coming

f. That his call to increased violence must be seen in that context.

h. That you've regularly protested in the company of Nazis and other white supremacist groups besides your own

i. That SOS has continuously antagonized the very pigs they now whine won't "protect" them.

j. That SOS is itself a white nationalist group.

k. That Turner is a grandiose, arrogant, self important young man, bent on his own greatness, a la Hitler and Custer

l. That Turner says initiating violence will destroy the SOS organization, and that he then calls for SOS to initiate violence.

2. You can only whine that you _said_ you dont like Nazis.

But you should learn something from your fascist forerunners - deniability has to be _plausible_.



And of course you ignore the underlying point - that Turner is obsessive, that he is in a locked box of his own device, and that anyone following him is simply following a quick road to hell, or prison.

Anyone who joins Turner's storm trooper front line to "protect" the perimeter he tries to establish will be first in line for jail or prison, depending, I suppose, on how stupidly they act.

It's the amatuerism of SOS, combined with the grandiosity and arrogance of its fuherer that makes such a sad spectacle.

Let me just spell it out for you simply.

Then you can decide for yourself if the sneering post - adolescent Turner is really the leader you need...

What we are all engaged in is politics.

Someone once said politics is war without bloodshed and that, on the other hand, war is politics with bloodshed.

Turner is inverting the two - throwing the equation off balance - just like other sad and pathetic figures in the Patriot movement have done.

The result of turning politics into war when the condtions don't call for it is going to be devastating for you.

Just like it was for the "Patriots" at Ruby Ridge, etc.

Like I said, we on the side of Human liberation, of Earth liberation and Animal liberation have walked this line for generations. We know the turf.

That's why, no matter how many guns Chase has in Campo, we kick his butt time and again.

(And, of course, some of the "Minutemen" will be going to prison for attempted murder - call them "rogue" or whatever you like.)

But you are all newbies - most especially Turner.

Think on it.

Get out before its too late.

That describes you , chico.

I especially like the part about saveourstate being white sep group...lol...like 30% of the people there are Latino's, and about another 20% are other. Hello ?

As usual, you all are just OBSESSED with race. It is most of what you think of when there are issues on the table that include people that are not white.

Also, you are quite delusional, me thinks. When did you give Chase a booty beating ? You thing shouting, playing music, and flashing spotlights constitutes that?

Chase was on John and Ken yesterday beggin for more indy goonage to join him as force multipliers.

We told you all you would be doing is helping us out there...and that is what those that have gone to Campo have done, and on their own dime !

It just does not get any better than this.

You STILL don't deny that;

a. Turner is a racist.

b. That his ideology is a white supremacist ideology

c. That the purpose of your organization is to create the conditions for ethnic cleansing

d. That the SOS website is riddled with racist images and stereotypes of Mexicans

e. That Turner sees a race war coming

f. That his call to increased violence must be seen in that context.

h. That you've regularly protested in the company of Nazis and other white supremacist groups besides your own

i. That SOS has continuously antagonized the very pigs they now whine won't "protect" them.

j. That SOS is itself a white nationalist group.

k. That Turner is a grandiose, arrogant, self important young man, bent on his own greatness, a la Hitler and Custer

l. That Turner says initiating violence will destroy the SOS organization, and that he then calls for SOS to initiate violence.

This is a _debate_, not a pissing contest. In a debate you have to back up your points. You haven't.

Your fuherer, Turner, is still a sad spectacle and a newbie. He is still a fool and an arrogant one, like all fools, and most of all,

HIS PLAN WILL STILL END YOU UP IN JAIL OR PRISON.

You SOSers are wet behind the ears. You have _NO_ experience with the pigs, and the pigs will cut you off at the knees if you follow your Turner into the pit he calls a "strategy."

You SOSers _do_ have one thing right - we are PROFESSIONAL protesters.

SOS members are playing a grown up game and you do not understand the stakes.

Now think about it.

When you're on trial for assault, and the prosecutor pulls out the foto of you next to the Nazi flag, no one is going to give a damn what poses you strike on your message boards.

It'll just translate to one thing - HARD TIME. Longer sentence. Prison, not jail. Maybe they'll slap you with a phony charge of felony "resisting arrest" for good measure.

Remember, the pigs have no more principles than you do, and Turner is on a mission to self destruct.

Go home and mow your lawn. You're out of your league.

P.S.

By the way, the idea that SOS is half peoples of color is a laugh. Funny they won't Show Up with your racist behinds!

And if there are a handful of people of color, well, there won't be for long - your Nazi alliances and flag waving will have insulted them all, except that death squad type character who shows up and speaks from time to time on the bullhorn.

It's also obvious that you could care less about them, and would much rather embrace your Nazi buddies without regard to their feelings.

After all, exactly how do you think you _really_ blew the gig with Earl Ofari Hutchinson, anyway?

Did you think African people were going to line up with you and the Nazis?!

Publicity is not helping your cause. The only writing that matters is the writing on the wall.

That is, unless you think the general public is enamored of Nazi flags, vigilantes shooting unarmed people on the border and white supremacist rantings about how non-white cultures are "unamerikkkan" and "inferior."

As far as Chase goes - What a record - two, three arrests of migrants in a MONTH?

They shoot a couple of people on the border in frustration right, and Jimmy calls the shooter's "Rogue Minutemen."

What a transparent, vicious, criminal, murderous, evil , genocidal, white racist farce.

Some of these guys are going to prison for attempted murder.

Get out while you can.

Breathe a minute. Think about what you're doing.

this is one the funniest and yet dumbest groups of allegations i have ever heard. a race war? hahahaha, where did you read that, and why are you guys resolving to these hilarious tactics?

chicomozteca clearly has an unbiased view on the matter. ahahaha. somehow, being seen near a nazi flag means you should get arrested. you guys are killing me.

yours truly,

mike almeida

hispanic, race-traitor, SOS member

What's next, the sheet and hood?"

Interestingly, the ones wearing sheets or hoods, or whatever you may want to call them have been associated with members or allies from the groups that face off against SOS at the protests.

What's that I hear? The sound of glass breaking? No one to blame but yourself though; Construct your house from a more durable material before you use it as a platform to lob boomerangs

Considering what we all saw in Laguna on Saturday would it be any real surprise to see the KKK show up at an SOS rally? I mean, the nazis flew their flags and gave the hitler salute. That's not exactly something you see every day.

That level of hate being expressed in a public setting is very, very rare, particularly in southern California and we have SOS to thank. Way to go guys. Mike A., AG, OP, Joey, BR and all the rest. Great work.

It's more than obvious that you guys are in trouble otherwise we wouldn't have so many of you posting on indymedia this week.

When you keep posting here, you demonstrate just how desperate you and your organization really are.

Hey, Joe: An Open Letter to Joe Turner and SOS

---First of all is that image photoshopped? LOL Id like to see the other half.

I don’t need to belabor the obvious – a number of people have researched and documented the ideological and rhetorical identity between yourself and your organization, on one hand, and white supremacist organizations on the other – and of course, the personal ties and relationships have been noted as well, repeatedly.

----I do not wish to belabor the obvious eiether but, sometimes it is neccessary. Pardon me but aren't the pro illegals linked with socialist communist orgs.?

Thou shall not throw stones...



You put yourself in the position you’re in, you’re not a “victim,” much less are you “oppressed.” No one is sabotaging you but you, yourself. YOU ARE the problem.

---I dont know about all that but, I know the same could be said about the illegals. When you come un-invited to a party, you have no right to complain about the host.



You don’t need other white nationalists to make you look bad – your organization IS a white nationalist group, one preaching the superiority of white “culture” and seeking by all means to ensure white cultural dominance and to “ethnically cleanse” the US.

---Boy do you have that all twisted around. Addressing the major problem with millions of illegal aliens. Is not excactly

"ethnic cleansing" I dont see them counter protesting Jewish, African American, or any other race's protests.

Could it be that they do not riot in our streets?

..... the reality is that your over-inflated sense of yourself and your power - your sense of your own impunity – is going to destroy you.

-----That is how I would describe the illegals and thier supporters.