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Stand Against Racism - June 18th

by RP Saturday, Jun. 11, 2005 at 4:09 AM

Chale con los minutemensos. We don't want racist hate mongers in any of our neighborhoods.

TAKE A STAND AGAINST RACISM

On Saturday June 18 the racist, immigrant-bashing
group Save Our State will be in Alhambra to try harass
and intimidate local Home Depot day laborers from
exercising their right to work.

The San Gabriel Valley Neighbors For Peace and Justice
have asked for people to come and stand shoulder to
shoulder in solidarity with the local day laborers.
Come and bring signs and posters and help defend
immigrants rights.

DATE: Saturday, June 18, 2005
TIME: 8am-Noon (SOS arrives at 9am)

LOCATION: HOME DEPOT
500 S. Marengo Ave.
Alhambra, CA 91801

A similar rally held by SOS several weeks ago in
Laguna Beach saw the SOS members with signs that said
"Illegals are criminals" and "Go Home", and yelled
that the immigrant workers were "disease carriers" and
"vermin".
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Right to work

by ARVN Saturday, Jun. 11, 2005 at 11:05 AM

Illegal aliens have no right to work in the United States. SOS is protesting because the corrupt US government does not enforce this law.

Or maybe you think people should be able to ignore any law that is inconvient. Just like in Mexico, where with the right bribe laws can be ignored.

Isn't that what these illegal aliens are escaping, corruption which greatly limits job opportunities? Instead of helping to make the US corrupt like Mexico, why don't you instead work to end corruption in Mexico (and other Latin American countries), so that these illegal aliens have better job prospects in their country of origin?

Then, the SOS and MM would have no reason to be "in your neighborhoods".

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Just like onepeople one planet

by sossucks Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 6:20 AM

calling the sos roaches! They are such copy caters
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WRONG, idiots....

by Hellfire USA Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 6:21 AM

Illegal Aliens DO NOT have the right to work in the USA. In fact, it is ILLEGAL for them to do so! It is ILLEGAL to hire illegal aliens! That is the LAW! Get your facts straight.

Secondly, Home Depot is a racially discriminatory company who partners with racist organizations to hire Mexicans over other ethnic groups - thats also illegal.

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Amnesty is Racism

by ARVN Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 6:48 AM

Amnesty for illegal aliens is racism. Because it increases Hispanic immigration while decreasing non-Hispanic immigration. For details see www.fairimmigration.com.

SOS opposes amnesty and illegal immigration, but supports legal immigration. In other words, SOS is against racism.

Vietnamese and other immigrants will be joining SOS in fighting this racism. Since you also claim to be against racism, and support immigrants, will you also be joining SOS in their protest against Home Depot?

Unless this is too much logic for your brains to handle?
Or maybe you just like to create havoc simply for the sadistic hell of it.
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No Pass

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 8:49 AM

Being an immigrant isn't a "pass" to support racism.

Here's a puzzle from the Wheel O Misfortune for ya.

Clue: crossover and epithet

C_NDI RIC_ _AT_R
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Why Amnesty is Smart

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 8:52 AM

Suppose some kid comes over, underground, at age 4. They go to school until ate 18. They're discovered and wish to get amnesty.

If you say "no", then, they will be deported, taking all that education they got, using it elsewhere. All that money invested in the education is lost to us.

It would be better to give them amnesty, and continue to live here, and work.
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How can we fix Mexico?

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 9:09 AM

We don't live there, nor are we citizens who can vote there.

Immigrants who send money back and continue to vote there are probably more likely to influence the government there than people who are impoverished and stuck there because some yahoos with rifles want to take shots at them when they try to cross.

Sending money back is like foreign aid, except it goes right into the hands of the people who can use it, instead of being filtered through political machinery. They money is used to build homes, securing decent lives for the people.

The workers who emigrate deprive the Mexican economy of its productivity, and reduce its unemployment, placing a little pressure on the government and companies to improve.

(If, in contrast, they were to have a revolt in their country, it would have been suppressed with the support of the US. If a leftist populist were elected, the CIA would probably start up covert ops in Mexico.)
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Tough Love for Mexico

by the article indymedia is afraid you'll read!! Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 2:32 PM

Mexico is a land rich in resources. It has plenty of rich agricultural land, mineral deposits, warm seacoasts, and huge oil reserves. Instead of developing those resources to provide jobs, Mexico exports its jobless people to work here. Their government cares nothing about the welfare of their citizens. It only cares about the $15 billion that they send home each year. This is Mexico's second largest source of foreign exchange after oil exports. Mexico has exported A FIFTH OF ITS POPULATION to our country.

These 23 million Mexicans cost our tax payers $68 billion per year. The cost of their presence is spread out in welfare, education of their children, incarceration of their criminals, and medical care. Mexican drug trafficing is made much easier by the millions of their citizens who are illegally here. The war on drugs costs $80 billion per year and the associated crime and medical expense costs billions more.

America has 300 million people and does not need any more. Our country is rapidly being destroyed by an occupying army of Mexicans. This army has rendered millions of U.S. citizens jobless and caused overall wages to plummet. Mexico has a real weapon of mass destruction inside this country aided by a fifth column of illegal alien lovers. We can have decent Mexican restaurants in every city over 100,000 with no more than 2000 Mexican chefs. Americans can perform the rest of the jobs.

We need to give Mexico a little tough love. That country has proven itself incapable of self-government. We occupied Mexico City in 1848 and should never have left. If the government there doesn't like the necessary measures, it is time for some cruise missiles to visit Vicente Fox's ranch. If that fails get his attention, the next step is invasion and occupation. To solve the problem we must address the reasons that Mexicans leave home as well as the reasons that they come here. They do not want to come to this country. They are forced to flee here to escape the grinding poverty in Mexico.

The problem must be solved in the following stages:

1. Jail U.S. employers who hire illegal aliens
2. Seal the border with Mexico
3. Stop ALL immigration
4. Abolish all green cards and H1-B visas
5. Deport all non-citizens to their countries of origin.
6. Stop all food exports to Mexico
7. Import as much Mexican food as possible
8. Start a DECLINE in the population of Mexico
9. Develop the Mexican oil fields
10. Develop Mexican mineral resources
11. Collect reparations

Jobs in this country are the attractive nuisance that bring Mexican illegal aliens here. A bounty of $1,000 should be paid to anyone who turns in an employer who has hired an illegal alien. That employer should receive a minimum prison sentence of two years. Claims by the employer that the illegal alien's documents appeared genuine will not be accepted. This is the purpose of a job interview. An employer smart enough to make payroll knows whether the potential employee is a U.S. citizen or not. After the first few employers are hauled off in handcuffs in front of video cameras, no illegal alien will be able to find a job anywhere.

The employment of illegal aliens is a vicious circle. When some employers hire them, other employers must also do so to stay in business. Jailing all employers who do will level the playing field so that no rogue employer will dare hire an illegal alien. While this will increase the prices of some things, the extra money will circulate in our economy instead of being sent to Mexico. This money will stimulate our economy and cause wages to rise more than the additional cost of some items. When society does not have to subsidize illegal aliens, our taxes will go down and our standard of living will rise.

Chris Simcox patrols with the Tombstone Militia on the Arizona border for illegal aliens. Within days of Bush talking about amnesty, all the illegal aliens that they apprehended said that they had come to get their amnesty. A 2,000-mile fence will cost billions of dollars and damage the environment. It is not necessary. A "shoot to kill on sight" policy should be established for illegal border crossers. This should be done without regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, age, religion, national origin, or citizenship status.

Not every illegal border crosser would have to be shot. Bring the closest Mexican consular officer out to collect the first carcass. The word will spread instantly all over Mexico. Immigration would be halted within days. This is actually quite a humane policy. It would save the lives of the 200 Mexicans who die from thirst each summer while trying to cross the Arizona desert. It would be far more effective than putting out water cans.

Only about 2,000 Border Patrol agents used as snipers would be required, one per mile. No additional agents would need to be hired since four shifts could be organized from existing agents. Huge numbers of agents would become available for reassignment. The extra agents can be used to form dragnets to rid the country of illegal aliens who are deep inside our borders.

The next step is to stop all legal immigration. The total number of political refugees must be kept under a hundred per year. As soon as the political conditions which created the need for them to be here are gone, they should be immediately repatriated. We have let refugees from Central American into this country because of earthquakes. They are still here 10 years later. Rather than bringing the victims of natural disasters here, the aid must be sent to them.

The only non-citizens allowed to work in this country should be those employed at foreign embassies, cooks at specialty restaurants, and as language teachers. Their numbers must be kept at the absolute minimum. Tourists or students should be admitted into this country only if they have return tickets to their home countries. Foreign students attending our universities must leave immediately after graduation.

We do not need ANY foreign workers in this country. Every green card should be revoked and every H1-B visa cancelled. Their former holders should be deported with their families to their country of origin. This is the proper way to achieve family unification. Children of non-citizens who were born in this country should be deported with their parents. Only a few arrests and deportations of non-citizens would be necessary. With the possibility of employment gone, illegal aliens would return to their home countries. Every past citizenship application should be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Where an applicant has lied or committed any kind of fraud, they should have their citizenship revoked and be deported.

We need to revive the Old West tradition of bounty hunters. A bounty of $100 should be established for the arrest of any illegal alien. This would be a profitable profession for interested parties. Any peace officer who encounters an illegal alien should be required to report them to the Immigration and Custom Enforcement. Any doctor who treats an illegal alien should be required to report them to ICE. Teachers should be also required to report any illegal alien parents that they become aware of, or their children. Any law enforcement officer, doctor, or teacher who fails to report an illegal alien should be imprisoned for two years without exception.

All deportees should be required to pay the cost of their deportation. If they are not able to do so, their property should be sold to defray their passage back home. Prior to deportation, non-citizens should be also be required to pay for any welfare or medical treatment that they have received. Their property should be confiscated and sold for this purpose if necessary. The taxpayer should pick up the tab only as a last resort.

None of these measures will prevent Mexicans from wanting to escape the overcrowding and poverty of Mexico. The solution of that problem is just as important as eliminating the environment that attracts them here. NAFTA (No American Factories Taking Applications) was a disaster for rural Mexico. Iowa corn is being sold in Mexico for half what it costs Mexican farmers to grow it.

We should not export agricultural products to any countries that are not stabilizing their population. Cheap food exports allow the Third World to breed like flies. Most rural Mexican villages are virtually deserted except for the very old and the very young. The farmers have all emigrated to the U.S. to find work. The remaining population are being supported by the money sent back to them from the U.S. earnings of former residents.

ALL FOOD EXPORTS to Mexico must be stopped. This will allow Mexican farmers to make a living and provide jobs for the Mexicans deported from the U.S. The loss of export markets for a this portion of our agricultural market is less harmful than the benefits of stopping immigration. We should only grow crops in this country that can be highly mechanized, like corn, wheat, soybeans, potatoes and cotton. Labor intensive crops like lettuce, onions, grapes, and peppers should be grown only in Mexico. This will provide jobs for unskilled Mexicans who can do nothing else. We should import Mexican vegetables not Mexicans. Any labor intensive crops grown in this county should be harvested by chain gangs of immigration lawyers. It will take them many years to work off their sentences.

Mexico has an abundance of rich farm land that can be used to grow labor intensive winter vegetables, but there are problems with sanitation. In 2003, several hundred Americans got hepatitis from eating Mexican scallions in Philadelphia. Several died. The outbreak was traced to the use of human sewage as fertilizer in Mexico. We will have to teach Mexican agricultural workers how to use field toilets. Our experts can teach them how to grow crops in a sanitary manner. We must dispatch inspectors to verify that they continue to do so. Then we can safely import huge amounts of food from Mexico.

Over 20 million Mexicans live in Mexico City. The air there is the most polluted in the entire world. The vast majority of that population can be dispersed to the rural countryside when their agriculture is developed. Development of Mexican oil fields and mines will provide high paying jobs. This will employ many of the 23 million Mexicans which will be deported from this country.

These are all stop-gap measures unless the population of Mexico is reduced. Their emigration to the U.S. is driven by out of control population growth. Until this is stopped, the problem cannot be solved permanently. A Mexican is born every 45 seconds and one emigrates to America every 30 seconds. A one child per family policy like China's must be immediately enforced in Mexico.

After the birth of her first child, every Mexican woman must be sterilized. Whatever force that is necessary must be used. We can provide a small army of doctors to help Mexico do the job. The cost of spaying a cat is $100. Surely $400 would be enough for a Mexican in mass production. Assuming 20 million Mexican women are of child bearing age, this would cost $8 billion. At one operation per hour, it will take 10,000 doctors one year to do the job. This is only a few percent of the total number of doctors in this country. Thereafter a trickle of sterilizations would maintain the one child per family policy. A million Mexican illegal aliens presently enter this country each year. Each costs society about $8,000 per year. In one year, we could save as much as the sterilization will cost.

Mexico has huge untapped oil reserves which their state oil monopoly Pemex has not properly exploited, see here. Since Mexico nationalized Pemex in 1938, it has been run inefficiently with rampant corruption. We import about three billion barrels of oil from Arab countries each year, see here. Those three billion barrels will make about 120 billion gallons of gasoline. This is 400 gallons for every person in this country, enough to drive 12,000 miles.

It would be far better to get all of this oil from Mexico rather than from Arab countries. If we didn't need their oil, we would have a handy excuse to keep Arabs out of our country. They wouldn't have money for terrorism if we didn't buy their oil. Our Middle East policy would be much more flexible as well. Getting the Mexican oil fields in shape would give Bush's beloved Haliburton something to do. Many jobs would be created for U.S. citizens in the Mexican oil fields. Pemex would be hiring and many Mexicans would get high paying oil field jobs.

Our southern neighbor has rich platinum, gold, and silver deposits. These riches must be exploited to provide jobs for their population. Tailings from old Spanish silver mines can be worked profitably with modern technology. Old mines can be reclaimed for agricultural land. Mexico has thousands of miles of beautiful sea coasts that can be developed for tourism. This will provide huge numbers of jobs as well.

Universal public education must be enforced in Mexico. This includes teaching Spanish to Mexican Indians. Mexicans must be educated to do high-tech work rather than just picking lettuce and trimming palm trees. We should train them as doctors, nurses, and engineers. If they are short on lawyers, we can send them a million of ours. At some point, we should be able to establish self government when they have become capable of it.

Once we get their economy humming, it is payback time. Reparations should be collected for the past costs of Mexican illegal immigration. This would include deportation expense, illegal alien crime, social services, education of Mexican children, and medical care. Most likely, this would amount to $600 billion or so. If each of 120 million Mexicans paid reparations of $1,000 per year, the total could be paid back in only five years.
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re: Amnesty is Racism

by philip vera cruz Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 2:37 PM

Arvn,

if sos is not a racist group, why then acidrain (regular in sos forum) is calling out stormfront at Victorville. dont tell me stormfront is not racist too? and dont tell me you dont assoicate with them. that's bullshit.
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left really knows it's not about racism

by SOSupporter Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 2:54 PM

Dear visiting SOS and Minutemen:

Refuse to engage in debate with these left-loons over accusations of “racism.” It’s a waste of time and energy.

Barring the most deluded of indymedia’s “finest”, these racial hucksters know damned well there’s a radical difference between the goals of SOS/MM and self-described ‘racialists’ like Stormfront.

None of their arguments about why one country should allow itself to be invaded by another stand up (and of course they don’t). A large part of history deals with the defense and maintenance of borders to keep nations sovereign. There is no other way.

Indymedia policy warnings are proof enough that the leftists “behind the curtain” know what’s really going on. They have rules against posting inflammatory rhetoric by so-called anarchists and revolutionaries, even if they agree with these miscreants.

In other words, they know there’s a bin for defective nuts, even for their own side. But they’re not about to give SOS/MM and other supporters of only LEGAL immigration ONLY any kind of break.

They can’t afford to when they have no valid arguments. Racism is the only trump card in their stacked deck. Call their bluff and let's get back to winning this war against illegal immigration.
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Racism pass

by ARVN Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 6:53 PM

>>Being an immigrant isn't a "pass" to support racism.

90% of Vietnamese immigrants support enforcing the immigration laws. The majority of Asian immigrants support legal immigrants over illegal ones. We know because we have taken surveys. Are they all racists?

You won't hear this from NCAPA or NIF, because they are controlled by the forces of globalization. Look at who their financial supporters are. It is not the average
immigrant.

By the way, it is great to be able to post this on Indy Media. We have been trying to get the main stream media to print this information for 2 years, with no success. Probably because as you know, they are controlled by the forces of globalization also.
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Better for who?

by ARVN Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 7:09 PM

>>>Suppose some kid comes over, underground, at age 4. They go to school until ate 18. They're discovered and wish to get amnesty. If you say "no", then, they will be deported, taking all that education they got, using it elsewhere. All that money invested in the education is lost to us. It would be better to give them amnesty, and continue to live here, and work.<<<<

Not sure what you meant by "discovered", but it sounds like you have been brainwashed by the open borders lobby, who by the way is controlled by the forces of globalization.

I personally know some legal immigrants similar to this situation, who were deported due to comitting a felony. They are doing better in their country of origin than they were in the US, and also helping the people of their country and the world more than if they had stayed it the US. Because they can speak English and have a better education, they can compete in the global marketplace and create jobs for the fellow country persons. Having foreign countries that can support themselves in this manner indirectly helps the US.

Meanwhile, if the illegal alien stayed an went to college, they would be competing with legal residents, many who I know that have computer science degrees are working at Best Buy selling consumer electronics.

But giving them amnesty does help globalization, by forcing down the wages of Americans, and keeping the third world from develping faster by their own efforts. If that is what you meant, that amnesty is better for globalization, you are correct.




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philip vera cruz

by Hellfire USA Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 7:29 PM

Hey menso. Stormfront has their own agenda, which is really no different than any other Mexican/Chicano Nationalist group.

SoS is not in anyway affiliated with Stormfront. Just because some of their members post on our forum does not mean SoS endorses their cause. SoS has already banned anyone spewing White Supremacist hate speech and they even posted a pinned bulletin warning WS's that they are not welcome.

Your Mexican hate groups like MechA, La Raza, La Voz de Aztlan, Brown Berets, etc. are in no way different from Stormfront or any other racialist group. Hypocrite.
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Nazis, white supremists et al.

by Fredric L. Rice Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 8:53 PM
frice@skeptictank.org

> SoS is not in anyway affiliated with Stormfront.

All the American Nazis Party stuff, all the Storm Front and National Vanguard / National Alliance and other white supremists groups, all the available evidence that shows it's all the same race hatred and bigotry in all relevant factors -- just ignore all that, folks, it's all just part of the world-wide Communist left wing conspiracy led by Bill Clinton's dick.

I wonder if anyone actually believes these people when they deny they're not racists,. The denials are getting rather shrill with each new exposure, seems to me.

It's telling: The good guys don't have to issue such disclaimers and try to play pretend. The good guys don't have to publicaly ask their members, followers, and supporters to not wear Nazi symbols or other white supremists symbology, literature, and what not.

The fact that these SOS/MM/Whatever indivgiduals _have_ to deny these overt, public groups speaks volumes about what SOS/MM/Whatever stands for. If SOS/MM/Whatever were legitimate, the American Nazi Party, Storm Front, Aryan Nations, Klu Klux Klan, or whatever overt groups that comprise their members, followers, supporters, defenders, advocators et al. wouldn't have to be denied.

'Course that's just my opinion, yours may be different. But when contrasting those who oppose racist hatred and bigotry and oppose assaults against freedom of speech, art, and expression contrasted against who and what supports, defends, applauds, joins, is part of et al. these SOS/MM/Whatever clowns...

Well the truth is quite evident, isn't it? Denial seems rather silly. I mean I even saw one clown try to pretend he could ignore the interviews of Nazis given to the Southern Poverty Law Center -- complete with photographs -- because the SPLC is some how "left wing." As if it was all some vast conspiracy.

Fact: There are real,m valid, legitimate reasons why SOS/MM/Whatever clowns are being forced to constantly deny overt white supremists. It speaks volumes about what these people are all about, in my opinion.
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Fredric Rice - non racist?

by ARVN Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 9:17 PM

Mr. Rice,

Since you claim SOS is closet racists, why not start your own pro-legal immigrant group that is non-racist? I believe you have said you oppose illegal immigration, is that correct?

Right now, SOS is the best game in town for supporters of legal immigration, but if you can do better, have at it, we will join you.

Since you are not a racist, I assume you also oppose amnesty for illegal aliens, is that correct?
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To "tough love"

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 9:23 PM

The reason why your posts get hidden is because you're an authoritarian, racist, fascist, and you constantly spam the newswire with your off-kilter, mechanical arguments.
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SOS and the KKK

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 10:06 PM

The relationship between groups like Stormfront and SOS can be understood historically.

Back in the 1920s, the KKK had some 2 million members. This incarnation of the KKK tried to distance itself from the "old" KKK of lynch mob vigilantes. This new KKK said they were a conservative group that upheld American values, nationalism, and law.

You can find articles about this on both white supremacist and other sites. It's not a fact in dispute.

As the new KKK came into power, politically, they were constantly distancing themselves from factions within the KKK who were terrorists. This terrorist faction ran around burning crosses, hanging people of color (mostly Black), and burning people up.

Though, rhetorically, the KKK said they opposed the terrorism, they didn't really do anything about it. They understood that the extremist faction of their movement was useful in quelling dissent and advancing the agenda of a more moderate white supermacist movement.

The new KKK eventually collapsed due to internal corruption by the leadership, causing many idealistic fascists to abandon the group. Remnants of the group persisted, and were a political force, well into the 1950s. Today, the KKK is largely powerless and not relevant, even in the WP movement.

The parallel between SOS (and MM) and Stormfront is that organizations like Stormfront are the extreme wing of the anti-illegal-immigrant movement. If you look in the SOS site, there are a lot of people who are against immigration, generally, for racial or cultural reasons. That is bascially a right-wing fascist political stance.

When SOS undertake explicitly race-centered positions like that against the monument in BP, they are helping to create contexts in which racist arguments put forth by groups like Stormfront make sense, or at least can be debated.
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Pro-Immigrant Groups

by johnk Sunday, Jun. 12, 2005 at 10:45 PM

ARVN - look in your own backyard. The most active advocates for immigrants are often the immigrants themselves, via ethnic-group Civil Rights organizations. Some of these are conservative.

ARVN - how many Vietnamese illegals have you turned in to the INS today? Are you willing to deport the ones you know about? Would you be willing to cuff them and toss them into a van, to send them off to the INS prison?

The JACL helped the FBI round up and intern their fellow Japanese Americans. They were sellouts back then, hoping to get on America's good side by putting their own into jail.

Maybe you can learn something from this. Maybe you should start a Vietnamese group that turns in Vietnamese people who don't have papers. You can even get a funny acronym: Americans Reporting Vietnamese Neerdowells.
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SOS AND THE KKK

by spillzz1 Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 11:57 AM

Wow, this is first time in history for a hispanic to belong to a group that supposedly has ties to the KKK.
SOS does not have ties to the KKK. If they did, they wouldn't let me associate with them, attend their rallies, etc. As a matter of fact, there are several hispanics that belong to SOS. Stop spreding the Bulls**t.
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Better for who[m]?

by johnk Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 12:17 PM

It's better for us, here.

Competition that lowers wages is not necessarily bad. It's only bad near the bottom of the economic pyramid, where poverty will increase. I don't think it's bad when two people compete for a job that pays $50,000 a year. In fact, overall, it's better because it lowers prices of finished goods and services.

It would be very good for the economy if there were twice as many doctors competiting to sell health services.

It was good that the felons you know were sent back. The fewer felons we have here, who victimize us, the better. It's nice that they can leverage their misfortune and American education into some kind of situation where they don't have to be as poor as their countrymen. I hope it doesn't involve prostitution or extortion, or importing slave-made goods.

Most undocumented immigrants, however, aren't like your acquaintances with green cards and criminal records.

They are regular people who just want to exist. They aren't felons. If they are deported, it's our loss. We lose their productivity and work.

An "illegal alien" who goes to college is ultimately, a huge asset to us. After all, who would you rather live next door to? An educated person without papers, or a legal citizen with a rifle and a methamphetamine habit?

Your choice, dude.

(I also like globalization. I just don't like corporate controlled, capitalist dominated globalization.)
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Restart the sweeps

by ARVN Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 1:58 PM

>>ARVN - look in your own backyard. The most active advocates for immigrants are often the immigrants themselves, via ethnic-group Civil Rights organizations. Some of these are conservative.

ARVN - how many Vietnamese illegals have you turned in to the INS today? Are you willing to deport the ones you know about? Would you be willing to cuff them and toss them into a van, to send them off to the INS prison? <<

Already tried the CR groups. They are too PC and spineless to be involved with your second paragraph. Which we support, we have asked the Border Patrol to run their sweeps through Little Saigon. Mainly just so the BP can tell Congressman Baca they are not only targeting Hispanics. They would be lucky to net more than a couple of Vietnamese illegals, as there are only a couple hundred Vietnamese illegals in the US.

I am sure next you will call me a race traitor. Save that label for NCAPA, they support amnesty even though it will overall reduce Vietnamese and Asian immigration.

You see, it works like this. 80% of illegal aliens are Hispanic. When they get amnesty, they sponsor their relatives for immigration. This category has an annual limit, so with amnesty, there are 80% more Hispanics, compared to only 15% more Asians sponsoring their relatives. These 80% Hispanics crowd Asians out, resulting in less Asian family immigration.

More Asians get crowded out from family immigration than receive amnesty, resulting in a net reduction of Asian immigration.

Like I said, go to www.fairimmigration.com for more details.




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Nope, sorry

by Fredric L. Rice Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 2:01 PM
frice@skeptictank.org

> Since you claim SOS is closet racists

Nope! Sorry. It doesn't matter what I think about the matter. What's relevant is what the SOS/MM/Whatever memberts, followers, supporters, defenders, joiners et al. say and do.

My opinions are irrelevant; go straight to the source and examine these people's rhetoric and actions and employ_thought_ and reason to see if their contradictions, claims, notions, and actions stand up to critical inquiry.
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Good summary; environmentalists, also

by Fredric L. Rice Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 2:43 PM
frice@skeptictank.org

> The parallel between SOS (and MM) and Stormfront
> is that organizations like Stormfront are the extreme
> wing of the anti-illegal-immigrant movement. If you
> look in the SOS site, there are a lot of people who
> are against immigration, generally, for racial or
> cultural reasons. That is bascially a right-wing
> fascist political stance.

To be fair, this is also a phenomena we find among evironmentalist groups which are highly fractured along _degrees_ of advocacy, rhetoric, and radicalism.

Most environmental groups and individuals denounce the arson activities of the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, and among those who denounce such "direct action" felonies, there's further fragmentation on why and how they oppose such extremist groups.

Some "mainstream" environmental groups that are generally accepted -- like Sierra Club, as an example -- _may_ quietly agree with some of the actions and rhetoric of ALF or ELF, but they're going to deny and downplay their acceptance or support to gain points in the never-ending public relations arena. The end goals of such groups are the same, so there's a level of finger crossing when they denounce their own putative members and supporters.

So it is, I believe, among these SOS/MM/Whatever types.

These SOS/MM/Whatever individuals are caught in a number of traps of their own making, hoist by their own petards, unable to divest themselves of their core ideologies (which most deny but many apparently inadvertantly expose to the public) and are unable to divorce themselves of their contradictory rhetoric and contradictory, increasingly violent activities. It spews from their words and their actions even as they deny it, as I observe them.

Hell, seems to me that's why they're apparently constantly scrubbing their web pages and discussion forums and are constantly asking their supporters, members, followers, participants not to expose their Nazi et al. ideologies in public. It's part of that public relations nightmare they face, it seems to me. Thus we see requests that Nazi literature not get passed out by their supporters and "protest" participants. It kind of looks bad. }:-}

While some of them loudly proclaim they don't support the American Nazi Party, Aryan Nations, Klu Klux Klan, Storm Front, and all the rest who support them, from my perspective I expect them to have their fingers crossed while denying it. It just leaps out from their words and actions, in my opinion from my skeptical, critical point of view which questions _any_ claim based on its merits and the claimant's history.

Someone here just tried to suggest that since I'm against illegal immigration (which I am) and since I find the racists' rhetoric and increasingly violent actions so distasteful (which I do) I should start my own "anti immigration" organization. Presumably one in which all these white supremists organizations which support, applaud, participate et al. with SOS/MM/Whatever wouldn't endorse.

The fatal flaw in _that_ notion is that any such attempt would be an unavoidable failure. If logic, reason, and evidence were to be employed in rhetoric and action to oppose illegal immigration, I'd find my arguments debunked, anemic, or irrelevant simply because the claim being made aren't supportable by evidence.

FRor instance, I've been of the opinion that illegal Mexicans -- a virtual invasion, from my perspective -- is responsible for much of the overcrowded schools, hospitals, and emergency rooms in Southern California. My web site's main opening web page shows that opinion.

I believe I was wrong now that I've been researching the subject since May. I'm not sure yet -- in fact I'll _never_ be certain; if anyone says they're certain of something, the rule of thumb is that they're mistaken. That's the Scientific Method's way to avoid undue bias and I abide by that rule.

So since I can no longer firmly believe that illegal immigration is the cause of a great many of Southern California's woes, I'm left opposing illegal immigration on the basis that it's not _right_ for illegals to flood into the US when there are so many honest people waiting their turn in line, usually for many years, doing so legally.

Point of all this being: Anyone who opposes illegal immigration is either a rabid racist bigot utiliziung the banner of opposing illegal immigration why denying the evidence against their excuses for doing so, else they're opposing illegal immigration on the basis that it's not fair to honest people waiting to get in.

Start my own anti-immigration organization that isn't stuffed full of white supremists hate mongers? Why? What we're left with is opposing illegals who sneak in soilely on the basis that it's not fair to others who come in legally, and trust me: there are a _lot_ better social injustices to fight and oppose than people who are being unfair to others.

No, what I oppose most is these SOS/MM/Whatever's assaults against freedoim of speech, art, and expression in Baldwin Park. That's what got me involved in opposing these racists. If they had kept their frocking hands off of _my_ monument, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have created my web site. I wouldn't have come out to join the counter ralkly. I wouldn't have hopped into the anti-race hate arena. I wouildn't have seen any need to become activated to oppose racial hatred and bigotry that's been with us always and will be with us always in some pointless gesture to thwart an ugly human condition that's part of humanity's evolutionary development.

When they demanded that the people of Baldwin Park didn't have the right to freedom of artful expression and demanded the monument was some how "racist" and "seditious," and while they cloaked their racist bigotry under the guise of "fighting racism," that got me out of the San Gabriel Mountains and activated to oppose everything I certainly feel they stand for.

My opinions only, of course.
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To arvn

by johnk Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 3:19 PM

Well, at least you're consistent.
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Globalism

by Bowman Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 6:34 PM

>>I also like globalization. I just don't like corporate controlled, capitalist dominated globalization.>>

It must be nice to live in an alternative universe. In my universe, there is something called the golden rule. He who has the gold rules. The only thing right now stopping total corporate globalism is the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Once that is gone, how will you stop total corporate globalism? By waving red and black flags??

And our bill of rights is slowly going. It is disappearing in the name of "security", sold to Americans because we have open borders!

So lets close the damn borders, and deport the 20 million illegal aliens who are the security threat! Yes I know, 99.9% are not terrorists, but with fake documents you can't tell a terrorist from a dishwasher. If we do need a few extra diswashers, then let them apply from their own country, which is the only way to really know who they are.

Then there will be no need for the Patriot Act or Real ID Act. No need for domestic flight strip searches. We will have all the Constitutional rights needed to fight corporate globablism.






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I want the meth addict

by Bowman Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 6:44 PM

>>who would you rather live next door to? An educated person without papers, or a legal citizen with a rifle and a methamphetamine habit? <<

I figure the legal citizen is a meth addict because he does not see any opportunity for "a better life", illegal aliens have stolen his chance at a better life. So he gets depressed and goes on meth.

Now once we deport all the illegals, he will have the opportunity for a better life, and kick his meth habbit.

Plus he believes in the 2nd Amendment, which will help keep the Corporate Globalists at bay.

If you think this is all BS, go up to Marysville and tell the meth addicts you will pay them $20 an hour for construction work, plus benefits. See how fast they line up for rehab and the work.










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You can hide the post, k, but not the truth

by Tough Love for Mexico Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 at 6:46 PM

To "tough love"

The reason why your post gets hidden is because you're an authoritarian, racist, fascist, and you constantly spam the newswire with your off-kilter, mechanical arguments.

1) My essay is not "spam." It comes correct with facts and logic. If you don't like it or understand it, FINE. Others WILL.

2) Authority: someone has to take charge and lead. Order must exist. Lawlessness has been tried. Doesn't workl.

3) You opine that I'm a "fascist." You are, of course, wrong, but when a communist calls anyone else a fascist, it's classic pot meets kettle.

4) I will continue to expound the truth as I see fit. Your rights end where intellectual laziness STOPS.

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Freedom of Speech

by Bowman Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 7:26 AM

>>No, what I oppose most is these SOS/MM/Whatever's assaults against freedoim of speech, art, and expression in Baldwin Park. <<

Say Freddy, I need your help. I want to put up a monument in Mexico City that says "This land was American once, and will be again". Referring to the US occupation of Mexico 1846 to 1848, after Mexico invaded the US (southern Texas). And the desire of some Americans today who want to annex Mexico. The monument would be in a predominately American neighborhood outside Mexico City.

You are a big champion of free speech, so I am sure you will help me raise money for this free speech project, right? Or at least support the rights of Americans in Mexico to put up such a monument.

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Nope, sorry.

by Fredric L. Rice Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 8:34 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

> Say Freddy, I need your help.

I have a policy of not assisting racists, homophobes, white supremists, Scientology customers, and other assorted rifraf, and while I don't know what -- if any -- category you might fall under, I'll just note that any assistance you might need should properly be offered by a professional psychiatrist or by Doctor Kevorkian, which ever you feel better suits your needs.

No offense intended, I'm sure.
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An example of scapegoating

by John Riley Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 1:07 PM
John Riley

>>>I figure the legal citizen is a meth addict because he does not see any opportunity for "a better life", illegal aliens have "stolen" his chance at a better life. So he gets depressed and goes on meth.

Either this guys is joking or he really does blame all of socities ills on immigrants...
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An example of scapegoating

by John Riley Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 1:07 PM
John Riley

>>>I figure the legal citizen is a meth addict because he does not see any opportunity for "a better life", illegal aliens have "stolen" his chance at a better life. So he gets depressed and goes on meth.

Either this guys is joking or he really does blame all of socities ills on immigrants...
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Hellfire USA

by philip vera cruz Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 3:49 PM

>Hey menso. Stormfront has their own agenda, which >is really no different than any other Mexican/Chicano >Nationalist group.

What do u call carrying an american flag? It's some kind of a nationalist propaganda.

>Your Mexican hate groups like MechA, La Raza, La >Voz de Aztlan, Brown Berets, etc. are in no way >different from Stormfront or any other racialist group. >Hypocrite.

you like labeling people but you dont want to be labeled. you do not know me. I do not belong to any of those groups. :p
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Subspace Radio Transmission

by imc poster Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 4:28 PM

>It must be nice to live in an alternative universe. In my universe, there is something called the golden rule. He who has the gold rules. The only thing right now stopping total corporate globalism is the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Once that is gone, how will you stop total corporate globalism? By waving red and black flags??<

I don't see how the Constitution is stopping globalization. In our trade talks, it's usually the US that's assisting the large corporations in their globalization efforts. There's this thing called "The Washington Consensus" that's basically neoliberal globalization's ideology. It sure as hell isn't called the "Ottawa Consensus", is it?

>And our bill of rights is slowly going. It is disappearing in the name of "security", sold to Americans because we have open borders!<

Well, we don't have open borders.

Our rights are being attacked, principally, by the USA PATRIOT act, which was legislation that was waiting in the wings, for who knows how long. There's no way that 900 pages of legalese gets written so quickly after a crisis like 911. The police state advocates, and the militarists, were waiting for the right moment to unleash USA PATRIOT on us.

i don't see the borders/PATRIOT connection. Please elaborate.

>Then there will be no need for the Patriot Act or Real ID Act. No need for domestic flight strip searches. We will have all the Constitutional rights needed to fight corporate globablism.<

Oh please. That is pure illogic and ignorance. The reason we have passports and even ID checks is because we closed up the borders back in the 1920s. Tighter borders necessarily mean more IDs, more harrasment of minorities, and more intrusive government. Go read the history of the INS on the INS site. It's great reading.

What country had the tightest borders in recent history? Yeah, Israel. It's a police state there. They're building a wall, and everyone has IDs, and there are ID checks.

The USSR and East Germany had tight borders too, to keep the people in.

Come back with some arguments that you can back up.
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LOLs - Dave, I think you should check the airlock

by imc poster Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 4:31 PM

>Plus he believes in the 2nd Amendment, which will help keep the Corporate Globalists at bay.<

That put a smile on my face.

The meth addict believes his gun will protect him from his dealer, who's going to rip him off. There's cops in the trees after him! What he doesn't know is that he's going to go into a rage and shoot someone he thinks he hates, but really loves.
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More...

by imc poster Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 4:45 PM

>If you think this is all BS, go up to Marysville and tell the meth addicts you will pay them $20 an hour for construction work, plus benefits. See how fast they line up for rehab and the work.<

They should get their asses out of Marysville and into rehab.

They can make $15 an hour under the table anywhere in LA if they have any skills at all. That's what some journaleros pull down.

I just checked on Craiglist. Most of the carpenter gigs on there go for $20 or more per hour. Handyman job was $18 an hour. This is for Craigslist pickup work, which usually pays pretty low.

If the tweeker can clean up his act and elevate his game to the level of the undocumented journalero, then maybe he'll make as much money.
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Tough Love

by imc poster Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 4:49 PM

You need some tough love, Tough Love.

You do spam. You posted the article over and over. How would I remember the darn thing if I hadn't seen it more than once.

You get racist in the article -- that's why you get hidden. It's not just the arguments, but the repetitive virulent disrespect.

You also have this control-freak thing going on with Mexico. Learn to let go, man. You're just one spazz at his computer. You're not even a frikken diplomat. Get in touch with reality, bossman.
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Tough Love for leftist thugs

by T.L. Pauly Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 5:55 PM

Trotsky wrote: You need some tough love, Tough Love.

>>> Not from you, 'comrade.' Lenin and Stalin's "tough love" murdered 62 MILLION Russians. Anyone who knows the twin failures of socialism and communism can safely say, "No thanks."

You do spam. You posted the article over and over. How would I remember the darn thing if I hadn't seen it more than once.

>>> Spam? I do repeat my same brilliant essay, that's true. And it's far more cogent than anything the 300 commie parrots on IMC repeat ad nauseum.

You get racist in the article -- that's why you get hidden. It's not just the arguments, but the repetitive virulent disrespect.

>>> The dog on whom the fleas feast has a right to be angry. That's another problem with the left. Only THEY think they have a license to be angry (usually over dumb causes).

You also have this control-freak thing going on with Mexico. Learn to let go, man.

>>> I assure you, we would (or will) be far merciful to Mexicans than they would be to others of they were running the show. Not one of these leftists parrot--NOT ONE--has anything to say about Mexico's militarized southern border. But then, hypocrisy is the greatest luxury.

You're just one spazz at his computer.

>> So are you.

You're not even a frikken diplomat.

>> Surprise! Neither are you!

Get in touch with reality, bossman.

>>> I've got the pulse of the nation under my finger. My ideas seem "dangerous" to fake revolutionaries because they would work.

>>> If you or any of these commie lackeys got in touch reality, it would hit you like the third rail of the subway.
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Guilty as charged

by Hong Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 6:38 PM

>>1965, the racial quota system was abolished (though it still privileges some nations over others). So, is the SOS about immigration? Yes. Are they racist? I think so. <<<

OK, in the first line you say the immigration system is no longer racist. In the second you say SOS is about immigration, so it is racist???!!!!

The immigration system is not racist, but because they advocate that system, SOS is???!!! How the hell do you get that???!!!!

Maybe it's because the system still privileges some nations over others? Because there is an exception to the per-county limit that allows three times as many Mexican (legal) immigrants compared to all other countries? In 2002, there were 217,000 Mexican legal immigrants. Next in line was India with 68,000 legal immigrants. All other countries had less than this.
2002 is the latest data I have, but most years are about the same.

So maybe you are saying SOS is racist because they support this racist immigration system which gives special treatment to Mexicans. Well then I guess maybe your are right. SOS is racist because they support three times the number of legal Mexican immigrants compared to all other countries. SOS is guilty as charged.
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Replies

by imc poster Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 9:27 PM

To "Tough Love" -- look, how are leftists "thugs" if they open up a website to comments and posts without registration, then they decide to "hide" your article? This isn't a free public server that belongs to everyone. The costs are borne by the progressive community. You are here at their courtesy. If you have a problem with your treatment here, you should stop posting and relieve yourself of your feelings of rejection.

To: Hong -- I should have been more specific, for you.

My point is that immigration law has been a tool of racism. It continues to be. All past debates around immigration were either explicitly racist, or tinged with racist overtones. Historically, immigration law has been one area where racists can exert some influence.

The legislation of 1965 removed restrictions that were obviously racist -- this was mainly about Asian immigration. When this was done, an exception was made for Mexico, because so many people come from Mexico to the US.

IRCA in 1986 upped that number again. This isn't "racism" as much as "dealing with reality". The reality is that the US economy has boomed, and Mexico's has grown less rapidly, meaning that there will be a lot of economic migration. There is definitely a bias in favor of Mexico in current immigration law.

There are also other biases in the quota system, particularly favoring the already affluent over everyone else. That's why people think Chinese are so rich (even though in China, they are so poor).

My evaluation of SOS as "racist" is primarily from their message boards, and their protest in BP. Secondarily, they are involved in nativist immigration politics. Groups that engage in this are often racist, historically.
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Please, stop the madness

by Whoever Wednesday, Jun. 15, 2005 at 9:31 PM

This idiocy about how we are racist against one group coming here over another.

WE DO NOT HAVE TO LET ANY OF YOU IN.

This is what illegal Mexican invaders, are not getting and every other American hating nation.

This is our country. The only people who belong here, are Americans.

The only people who belong here, are those who we wish to be here.

We can do whatever the f*** we want with our country.

Right now, we want all illegal Mexican invaders out.

Then if we want, we will shut our borders to all of you.

AMERICANS FIRST!!!!!!!!! THE HECK WITH THE REST OF YOU!!!!!!
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Whoever

by El Chivo Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 2:25 AM

Stop your nationalist propaganda crap that how Hitler started. are you the next Hitler?
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Racism or bias?

by Hong Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 5:45 AM

imc,

When Europeans were given preference over asian immigrants, you call it racism. When Mexicans are given preference over asian immigrants, you call it bias. Why is it not the same term in both cases? Call them both racism, or both bias. The economic conditions you describe today for Mexico vs. the US were the same for Europe vs. the US 100 years ago.

As for Chinese immigrants, yes they are rich by Chinese standards, but not American standards. They become rich by American standards only after working very hard for many years.
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You Are Still the Same Beast

by Pachuco Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 5:55 AM

You Are Still the Sa...
monument.jpgkv22zw.jpg, image/jpeg, 429x165

The more you speak the more evident it is that you all you Minutemen and SOS are racist. Your own words betray you, your agenda is clear.

You lied to the American People about the monument in Baldwin Park.

An American, not a Mexican, uttered the words you protest.

The statement that California was Mexico once is 100% true.

The statement that California was Indian always and will be again is the artist's opinion - but also has truth to in.

Your hate for this monument is an insult to the Native Americas.

You ignore the other statements on the monument to fool the American People, who, by the way, think you are all Hate Mongers and are not supporting your racist endeavors.

Americans are united against you. We fought you in Berlin, in Iran and Afghanistan - you are internal extremist terrorists in the USA.

First you went after the defenseless border crossers, and then what you considered a lone and unprotected monument - what next?

Do you think we will bury our heads in the sand like many did in pre-Hitler Germany?

No, history has taught us well - we know a fascist when we see one - and it is you SOS, Minutemen or whatever you call yourself now, you are still the same beast.
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Should get white supremists howeling

by Fredric L. Rice Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 6:19 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~12220~2920858,00.html

Here the claim is that 9% of the people who are born in Mexico sneak across the border into the United States. That alone indicates that the supposedly non-right-wing study is highly suspect, an attempt to pretend the problem is much worse than it really is; an attempt to whip up fear about unwashed, disease ridden brown hordes.

I'm totally against illegal immigration ept in certain circumstances. However I'm more opposed to white supremists and other racist cults. As it is, I'll have to go find out who these people are that are making these latest claims to see what their white supremists / right-wing connections are, if any.
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There's a massive understatement

by Fredric L. Rice Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 8:49 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

> Our rights are being attacked, principally, by the USA
> PATRIOT act

Good luck trying to find a Bush Republinazi that has ever read a copy of it -- either the first assault or the second version these fascists came up with. It looks to me like the clowns who support this fascist regime do so because they're fascists or because they're illiterate -- or both.
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Disease carriers

by ARVN Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 9:55 AM

Fred, illegal aliens ARE disease carriers. A Mexican illegal alien gave tuberculosis to my "brown" legal immigrant daughter.

Most immigrants from Asia have to undergo expensive medical tests before they are allowed in the US. These tests include for tuberculosis. I say most Asians because some Asian countries like Japan have TB under control, so they are exempt.

On the other hand, the Hispanic illegal aliens from TB infested countries who illegally cross the border do not undergo these expensive tests.

Is this preferential treatment by the US for Hispanic illegal aliens racism, or bias?

I am sure now that I have said something you don't want to hear, you will call me a right wing nut case. It doesn't matter to you that I have voted for Diane Feinstein and also against George Bush.

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progressive goals

by xavier Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 10:08 AM

I am truly sorry for your daughter contracting TB, and it is true that many cases in the US are secondary to immigration from or travel to endemic areas. but we cannot lose sight of the larger picture -- we can make this into a world where all people have access to health care, where TB is under control not just in the industrialized nations but everywhere.
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To Pachuco and El Chivo

by Geeesch!!! Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 10:23 AM

El Chivo, El Chivo, El Chivo

Kind of a cool name.

Anyway.

Me Hitler, what a laugh.

Hitler wanted to take over the world and wipe out a whole race of people.

See, how you people blow things out of proportion.

All I want, and 80% of Americans want is our country.

This is our country.

We do not want to kill or murder anyone. All though, we really do have that right, when we are being invaded. If this was to turn into a war, well then war is war.

To Pachuco: They are not innocent defenseless border crossers. They are illegal Mexican invaders. Who we have the right to remove from our country.

In my community, we have several legal Mexicans, who are very important friends. They came to our country, legally. They respected our laws, and we respect them for that. We love their music, their food and culture. They have brought enrichment to our community. When we are around them, they speak nothing but Spanish. We do not care. Why, because when they are interacting with Americans, they speak our language, English. They came here respecting us. They came here legally. They respected the fact, that this is our country, with OUR RULE OF LAW. They have assimilated, without giving up their culture or their language. They are law-abiding citizens.

Guess what??? They hate all illegal Mexican invaders, as much as the rest of us.

All you bring is lawlessness. You demand respect, but you give no respect.

I love all Mexicans, who come here respecting us, and wanting to be a part of us.

If you want to be a part of us, the first thing you do is, RESPECT OUR RULE OF LAW.

You come here dividing us.

Until, you accept the fact that this is our country, you will never be welcomed.

Until, you respect OUR RULE OF LAW, you will always be portrayed as the criminals you are.
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But . . .

by The Mórrígan Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 10:31 AM

I 'm sorry that both your sister and the Mexican are ill.

However . . .

The U.S. exported 118.7 BILLION cigarettes and 160 BILLION metric tons of raw tobacco in 2004.

Mexicans are not the bad guys; the U.S. are not the good guys.
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Cure for TB

by johnk Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 10:34 AM

If the quota were raised and altered so people could immigrate even if all they can do is work for someone, then, they would be screened for TB.

If clinics offered TB testing, without any threat of being reported to the Border Patrol, you can reduce TB.

If we clamp down on immigration following the SOS / MMP agenda, the rates of TB will increase.
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Assimilation

by johnk Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 11:18 AM

"When we are around them, they speak nothing but Spanish. We do not care. Why, because when they are interacting with Americans, they speak our language, English. They came here respecting us. They came here legally. They respected the fact, that this is our country, with OUR RULE OF LAW. They have assimilated, without giving up their culture or their language."

That's not assimilation.

All they are doing is adapting or acculturating.

Assimilation is when you can no longer distinguish between the incoming group and the host group. In many places in America, different European communities have assimilated into each other, though some distinct communities still exist.

For example, on the coasts, I think that a pretty large number of Latino/Indigenous and Asian people have assimilated into both white and African American communites,but we can barely tell. Many part-white people have assimilated into the African American community too. Because they've assimilated, you can't tell that they're "different."

Assimilation *projects* as a public policy went out with the 1950s. Back then, some teachers used to hit children for speaking Spanish or their native American languages. That's "assimilation" as forced by the state.

What you're talking about is multiculturalism or integration, where people integrate, but preserve aspects of their "original" cultures, and the larger culture starts to take on things from the contributing cultures.

The multiculturalist *ideology* sees this process as positive, whereas the assimialtion *ideology* sees this process as a problem (to be addressed by assimilation projects).
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Cure for illegal immigration

by ARVN Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 12:21 PM

>>If the quota were raised and altered so people could immigrate even if all they can do is work for someone, then, they would be screened for TB.>>

If Mexico allowed Americans to directly own land, so they could develop it and profit from it, and rampant corruption was ended so that law enforcement could be trusted, then there would be plenty of better paying jobs in Mexico, removing the incentive for millions of Mexicans to immigrate to the US, where they drive down wages for legal residents and increase social costs. I know Vietnamese legal immigrants who have been displaced by Mexican illegal aliens.

Basically I guess the difference between you and me is, I would like to see the standard of living for everyone on this Continent increased, while you want to increase Mexican living standards at the expense of American living standards.

>>If clinics offered TB testing, without any threat of being reported to the Border Patrol, you can reduce TB.>>

This is already the case. But whether illegal aliens go or not is another matter.

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Ancores Al Buey

by Pachuco Thursday, Jun. 16, 2005 at 1:06 PM

Ancores Al Buey...
ancores.jpgdrojco.jpg, image/jpeg, 602x464

To Pachuco: They are not innocent defenseless border crossers. They are illegal Mexican invaders. Who we have the right to remove from our country.


The Akaka Bill Could Give Birth to the Nation of Aztlan.

Hawaii is in the process of passing a bill that will create a new sovereign nation within the borders
of the United States.

The criterion is the based on “GENETICS” or traceable lineage of anyone who qualifies according to the established definitions as “Hawaiian.” This bill will allow Hawaiians to lay a claim to the ceded lands of Hawaii.

That will set the precedent for Mexicans who were forced off their land in 1848 to have a similar claim to Aztlan.

Plus the USDA is offering loans to Mexican Nationals to buy plots of Aztlan.
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Y&es, I agree about the disease problem

by Fredric L. Rice Friday, Jun. 17, 2005 at 8:59 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

> Fred, illegal aliens ARE disease carriers. A Mexican > illegal alien gave tuberculosis to my "brown" legal
> immigrant daughter.

I know about this, and I've known it's been a problem for centuries. The United States has had this problem with immigrants landing in New York legally for the past 200 years and more. I know it's a problem, I agree it's a problem.

> I am sure now that I have said something you don't
> want to hear, you will call me a right wing nut case. It
> doesn't matter to you that I have voted for Diane
> Feinstein and also against George Bush.

I'll disappoint you, then. }:-} The issue about illegal immigrants posing a health hazard is an issue that I accept and understand. I advocate a closed border and I've always been against illegal aliens sneaking into the United States.

What I'm against is the racism and white supremist ideologies being cloaked in the guise of being "anti illegal immigration." I am _totally_ against illegal immigration except in certain circumstances, but I'm even more so against white supremists and assaults on freedom of speech.

Incidentally, I acknowledge that my rhetoric is at times jhust as extremist as any right-wing rhetoric one may point toward, but at the same time I recognize that such discussion forums such as this one there's a lot of "street theature" and play acting that goes on. While I'll harbor strong opinions, I may not hold them as strongly as I'll depict and, in fact, I changed my opinions -- and my web site -- about supposed economic hardships caused by illegal aliens.
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Owning land in Mexico

by Fredric L. Rice Friday, Jun. 17, 2005 at 9:05 AM
frice@skeptictank.org

> If Mexico allowed Americans to directly own land, so > they could develop it and profit from it, and rampant
> corruption was ended so that law enforcement could > be trusted, then there would be plenty of better
> paying jobs in Mexico, removing the incentive for
> millions of Mexicans to immigrate to the US, where
> they drive down wages for legal residents and
> increase social costs.

Japanese individuals own a considerable amount of land and buildings in the United States and because of it, the US government has routinely caved in to economic blackmail.

But that's insignificant compared to the properties that Saudi Arabia owns here in the United States and because of _that_, the real perps of the September 11'th terrorist attacks in New York were allowed to not only go free, but are _still_ being granted fuill access to America's politicians.

George W. Bush's family is a long time family frind of the bin Ladens and of course they're also business partners going back several generations.

I can't blame Mexico's government for trying to slow down the acquisition of their land by American business since they probably recognize the fact that once a certain level of ownership is achieved, even Republican treason like 9/11 can and will go unpunished.
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