They make new ways to get you in prison, they want to control you. They put the rest in apartments, caretakers watching every move. They watch us . They always have awatched women, conrolling them, husbands, other men on streets, to harass us and control us and make us miserable. CaLL US FAT. tHEY DO THIS TO CONTROL AND FORCE US INTO MISERY AND NO FREEDOM. tHEY HAVE TO COTNROL US. tHE sTATE DOES THE SAME TO US ALL. THE CHURCH DOES TO HE SAME TO US ALL. iT'S ALL A SYTEM.

Actually, I am hoping that this will be brought up to one in every 33 by the arrest of the entire Bush administration and all military people responsible for atrocities in Iraq, prior to their being turned over to some international body for a Nuremberg-type trial, with Ramsey Clark as the chief prosecutor and Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal as expert witnesses.

Meyer,
That would be brought *down* to 1 in 33.

"Up" IS "down" in Meyer's world.

It is a well known fact that 70% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

What a dumbass post starting this thread. If criminals didn't commit crimes we'd have zero prisons and zero people in prisons.

How completely ridiculous it is to try and shift the blame away from the criminals!

We don't have a 'prisons problem,' we have a 'criminals problem.'

...individual behavior of no business of the government's we would have more than enough room for the real criminals.

Murderers for example.

Like Bush.

"What a dumbass post starting this thread. If criminals didn't commit crimes we'd have zero prisons and zero people in prisons.
How completely ridiculous it is to try and shift the blame away from the criminals!
We don't have a 'prisons problem,' we have a 'criminals problem.'"

It used to be a crime to sell alcohol. The point is what constitutes a crime is subjective -- Hello! sodomy laws. And if drugs were de-crimalized, like booze, there would be a whole lot less criminals and prisoners.

If I am not mistaken, the US now leads the world in the percentage of its population who are in prison or jail. Now, you don't suppose that the following factors might have anything to do with this, do you? (1) People being constantly laid off, with a "natural" unemployment level of at least 4 percent (officially) accepted as necessary for capitalism to function. These jobless people are left on their own after their benefits run out. (2) Insititutiona racism which concentrates poverty especially, although not entirely, among racial minorities and a legal system that is heavily biased against them. (3) A value system (the bourgois values of capitalism) which constantly pounds into people's heads the importance of owning expensive commodities, and which leads people who don't have money or credit to take these commodities by force because they have been brainwashed by advertising, movies, television and other outlets int believien that these things are necessary to a decent life?

You pretty much hit it on the nail. I might append to (2) a method for disenfranchising the black and poor so that spurious election results might be achived, and (4) a way of maintaining slavery, who was outlawed in the 14th amendment except in the case of prisoners.

... of people between jobs is a totally different Animule from Permanent Unemployment.

Any system of Economic Organization is going to have some percentage of unemployment as people, move, change jobs, return to school, etc., ... This is Frictional Unemployment it is not Permanent. It is temporary and represents an ever changing group of people.

Permanent Unemployment is when you have a general Economic Slowdown, usually a result of Government mismanagement, which results in people being unemployed and unable to find work.

Economists disagree on the exact Percentage but you will find that most estimate the rate of Frictional Unemployment to be around 5 to 5 1/2 %. These are people who are unemployed between jobs etc., ... and it is inescapable as people are always doing such things as moving, going back to school, moving in and out of the Labor Force by CHOICE.

It is only when you start rising above this floor that you move into the problem range.

Currently the percentage is well above than. Depending upon where you live and whose numbers you use - it seems to be somewhere in the range of 8 to 10 %. It could be higher (and just a personal hunch but based on my following of Economic News I would guesstimate it to be more in the range of 12 to 18%).

The problem of Under-Employment, working below ones abilities, is related to Permanent Unemployment but is a seperate issue.

...is well received. The problem is when apologists insists CHOICE is the predominate reason for unemployment/underemployment. They like to site parttime mothers, for instance, to explain the wage disparity between women and men. But rarely do they acknowledge that choice is rarely if ever a factor for not having health insurance and other benefits (that mothers most definitely need) and can only be received through full-time employment. Also, general unemployment statistics grossly disguise unemployment/underemployment of certain subfactions. Many 20 somethings have CHOSEN to go back to school. But how many of them are reacting to the 20 somethings unemployment rate which is double the overall population? Then there are those who CHOSE to enter the military. But how many of them were actually drafted by poverty? And of course prisoners do not CHOSE to be in prison, the majority there because the only economy they had access to was the drug economy. But again these people are not included in unemployment statistics, enambling the propaganda machine to play down the actual state of the US economy. No, COERSION is the most acurate term to describe unemployment/underemployment.

I want to see the statistics of black males in the US who are employed and are neither in the military nor prison. That pitiful number is case in point for what is covert genocide of black Americans.

There is a large insitution in the city where I live where people are constantly showing up to apply for custodial jobs (cleaning toilets, etc.) and other low-pay, low status, deadend positions. Needless to say, most are unemployed. I guess we can assume that they are unemployed by choice, eh? Especially the ones who got laid off from relatively decent-paying industrial jobs.

First: Thank You for the thoughtful Post. In some areas I think we are in accord and a few slight differences in others.

I don’t think coercion is the word I would “choose” rather I prefer “manipulation” and just the general cussedness of humanity in general.

Manipulation because our economy is heavily manipulated by the Bankers of the Federal Reserve, and their Cats’ Paws the Congress and pResident. Why I believe this to be so would take to long to establish clearly in a short post. If you are curious do a search on “The Creature from Jekyll Island” and Congressman Louis T. McFadden’s impassioned 1933 Speech to Congress. This manipulation is to some large degree the cause of Under/Un - Employment. Not the only one though. I do not exempt individuals for taking responsibility for their own situation and doing something about it.

As for the 20-somethings unable to find work we are in the middle of an Economic Slowdown and the young are always hurt most in periods of high unemployment. This is because they are just entering the Labor Market and with low or no growth nobody with a Job is giving up their seat. Musical Chairs where all the chairs are filled to begin with. The other, for which I have no hard data, would be did they take a degree in something for which there was little demand to begin with? I don’t know the answer to that question off the top of my head but I do know from the experience of the 70’s and 80’s that many in my generation who took degrees in Social Science and others such as Literature found themselves flipping Whoppers. (I had a good friend who was a Computer Repairwoman who had an Undergraduate Degree in Chemistry and an MA in English Literature. When I aske why she took up her trade her reply: “I got tired of Flipping Whoppers”. Anecdotal but I think illustrative.)

As for someone joining the Military to get out of Poverty? I think that is a solution only for the unimaginative. I did serve in Uniform and I did join in part for the “free” Schooling, however that was a seconday concern as I lived near several good, cheap, Community Colleges with outstanding Job Training Programs. To someone who knows no better it might look like a way out, but it is not the only one or even the best. The only good reason to join the Military is the Desire to Serve One’s Country. With the current Junta I would not advise it as you will have your desire perverted against your will.

"I don’t think coercion is the word I would “choose” rather I prefer “manipulation” and just the general cussedness of humanity in general."

Twelve in one hand, a dozen in the other. The pont is that chose is at best an allusion, at worst an outright lie. Depending on the combining factors of race, class and gender, your since of control or the ability to choose differs.

"Not the only one though. I do not exempt individuals for taking responsibility for their own situation and doing something about it."

Neither do I. And you'll be hard pressed to find someone who believes individuals have no responsibility. The issue being debated is what is society's responsibity?

"As for the 20-somethings unable to find work we are in the middle of an Economic Slowdown and the young are always hurt most in periods of high unemployment. This is because they are just entering the Labor Market and with low or no growth nobody with a Job is giving up their seat. Musical Chairs where all the chairs are filled to begin with..."

We agree here. But perhaps I need to elaborate. The crises facing 20 somethings (and younger) is far more horrifying than that. The average cost of a private college education is $35,000 a year. Students are graduating from college with loans in the excess of $100,000, not the reality for those graduating in the 70's and 80's. (Today's young people can forget about ever buying a house whose prices have escalated through the roof.) Because of these riduculous prices for private schools, the class of people formaly called the middle have been priced out of a private school education. Therefore, the so-called middle class are clamoring to get seats into public colleges and universities. Not only have the prices for community colleges, CSU's, and UC gone up while quality gone down since the 1980's, California has built 21 new prisons since the 80's <http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/dec1998/pri-d12.shtml> but only one CSU and one UC. Do you see where I'm going with this? The state spends about $7,000 per student and $27,000 per inmate a year <http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues387.shtml>. Taxpayers are subsidizing the cost for housing, feeding and most importantly guarding slaves for corporations that refuse to pay these same people a livable wage might they be able to pay taxes. Schools, failing to teach people to even fill out a job application are not designed to prepare the poor for anything but prison (or the military, which no longer provides money for college or job training for the majority of its enlistees). You doubt what I say? Consider this: The law, approved in 1998, bars federal grants, work-study money and U.S.-backed and subsidized student loans to anyone convicted of selling or possessing drugs <http://www.nctimes.net/news/2001/20010715/62509.html>. That means that the drug economy has been directly set up to coerce/manipulate the poor (usually black and brown) into the slave economy, i.e. prisons. There are widespread structual changes taken place within the US that are far more serious than "the economic slowdown". Older generations have no clue what is going on because they are busy working 80 hours a week, paying bills and praying they will still have their jobs long enough to pay for their homes and ther children's expensive educations.

"The issue being debated is what is society's responsibity?"

That's where you swerved off the road. "Society" does not have any responsibility. We as individuals in society, DO!!

It's too easy to pay taxes and say "Oh, the government will take care of that homeless person, not me. That's why I paid my taxes." Nope. Get the government out of it. Leave it up to individuals. Individuals will either of their own volition care for the downtrodden person, or they will form committies who will work as a unit to provide care.

Let me put it this way. If we as a people have gotten so bad that we won't take it upon ourselves as individual humans to see to the concern and care of our fellowman, then no government program will ever save us from ourselves.

The rest of your stuff is utter nonsense. So what happens if someone is paid a "living wage" (as you call it)? Well, the payroll for the corp goes up. How do they offset that? Raise the prices of their product. What happens then? Either people accept the price increase or they stop buying it. In secnario #2, the people stop buying the product, a living wage doesn't do a lot of good for people working for a company that goes OUT OF BUSINESS, now does it? If sceranio #1, then you start a domino effect. Higher wages require higher prices, which require higher wages to pay for the higher prices, which requires higher prices to pay for higher wages, etc........

The only other scenario is that instead of raising the cost of their product, the corp lowers their income. In other words, the corp makes less profit. Well, that chases away investors who require stock increases and/or dividends. No free market investors, no capital in that form, limited expansion. It's like the goober over at SF-IMC who used to say that corps should have to make it based soley upon their profits, they shouldn't borrow money or anything.

Corps are in business to make money. Bottom line. That's why they're there.

So, do your living wage. The corps will either streamline (layoff) to lower their payroll (which is typically the largest expense of any corp) or the market will find a way to automate what used to be hands on.

Either way, your looking for a government solution, which can only make matters worse.

>>The issue being debated is what is society's responsibity?

"That's where you swerved off the road. "Society" does not have any responsibility. We as individuals in society, DO!!

It's too easy to pay taxes and say "Oh, the government will take care of that homeless person, not me. That's why I paid my taxes." Nope. Get the government out of it. Leave it up to individuals. Individuals will either of their own volition care for the downtrodden person, or they will form committies who will work as a unit to provide care."

Did you completely block out what was written before that? The part about agreeing that individuals have a responsibility and no one saying they didn't? And where in the word SOCIETY did you read GOVERNMENT? No where in my entire post did I mention the word government even once. Society is an abstract term which is why it is the focus of debate. I don't think you understood my post at all, which is why you ignored the whole thing accept that one line that trigured that tangent you just went on. Read my post again, comprehend and/or ask questions, then come back with direct references to what was written. Do you think you can do that?

Try as I might I could not find anything to disagree with in your last Post. (Just Joking.)

I agree in the main. The Drug War is a contrived scenario that I think has multiple purposes. One of which is that which you mentioned - emulation of China's Slave Camps.

Although slightly off topic - I would add that the Drug War also exists to generate money by keeping prices high and the Market ultimately under the control of Government Cronies. It is really pretty sick.

"Try as I might I could not find anything to disagree with in your last Post. (Just Joking.)"

It would be quite interesting to hear what you disagree with and even more helpful to hear what you might add. We are not neo-cons. So we can accept that all perspectives are just part of the whole truth.

"I agree in the main. The Drug War is a contrived scenario that I think has multiple purposes. One of which is that which you mentioned - emulation of China's Slave Camps."

Yes, I'm quite aware that the Drug War has many purposes. I was just trying to show that when you understand the Drug War you realize what a farse choices are for young people. For the classes of people who have been written off at, well, birth, if they are even caught with drugs (and knowing how corrupt the cops are, how many times are they actually planted), they can forget about ever going to college, the very means for escaping poverty. Public higher education in California used to be basically free (before Gov. Reagan). But now it is quite expensive. Most every one needs some form of assistance in the form of loans, grants or work-study. The Drug War is a way for denying people that assistance. That without any skills they will be left to do nothing other than commit petty crimes in order to survive, people will be gauranteed, thanks to the 3 strikes law, life sentences into prison slave camps and permanant disenfrancisement. (Now you know what all those glorified boot camp episodes on Jenny Jones are about). And with the young of the "educated" classes carrying debts exceeding $100,000 dollars and no forseeable employment in sight because of this completely orchastrated "Economic Slowdown", the so-called middle class is enslaved too. It's quite sadistic. You gotta hand it to "them" for pulling off this plot to re-enslave us (all this time) within the last 30 years.

"Although slightly off topic - I would add that the Drug War also exists to generate money by keeping prices high and the Market ultimately under the control of Government Cronies. It is really pretty sick."

Although I don't know a lot about the Drug War and government control of the market, I'm not surprised. There is no amount of decay and chaos, be it social, economic or environmental that is an accident in this country. Nice conversing with you.

SOLUTION 2.003

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these United States; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the United States Federal Administration including, but not limited to the current President of the United States George W. Bush is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.