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Israeli's sense they've won

by JAMES BENNET The New York Times /B.A. Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 10:13 AM

Israeli officials are expressing growing confidence that after 33 months they have defeated the Palestinian uprising, or intifada.

TEL AVIV, July 3 Israeli officials are expressing growing confidence that after 33 months they have defeated the Palestinian uprising, or intifada.

The Israeli chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, told Israeli reporters on Wednesday that the developments this week might eventually be seen "as the end" of the conflict. "It is certainly a victory" for Israel, he was quoted as saying.

Some Israeli analysts criticized that conclusion as premature, if not hubristic. Yet for now, the American-brokered talks between the adversaries are being held on what appear to be largely Israeli terms.

Negotiators who three years ago were discussing how to divide Jerusalem are debating how to return partial control of cities that were then under Palestinian authority .

"When the intifada began, the demand was, `End the occupation, because the negotiations led to nothing,' " said Samir al-Mashharawi, a leader of the mainstream Palestinian faction, Fatah . "Now, Palestinian demands are to return back to the situation right before the intifada, and we are negotiating about this."

He said that during one of his terms as an Israeli prisoner, he and other inmates demanded chairs and tables. In response, he said, the Israelis took their mattresses. The prisoners demanded them back.

"After a month, they returned the mattresses, and we felt very happy we achieved something," he said. "Israeli diplomacy is based on this idea."

How the Bush administration will press the peace plan forward is unclear. Violence could erupt again at any moment, and Palestinians have proven they can inflict tremendous pain including economic loss on Israel. It was no accident that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon chose an economic conference in Jerusalem today to declare, "For the first time since I entered the office of prime minister, there is a real possibility of an end to terror and the return to normal life."

The Israelis appear to be filling in the details of a new American-backed peace plan, which Israel had resisted, to better suit its perceived interests.

The Israeli Army will not withdraw from any more Palestinian cities until it sees that Palestinian security officers are acting against violent groups in Bethlehem and Gaza, where forces pulled back this week, a senior Israeli military official said today.

Mahmoud Abbas, the appointed Palestinian prime minister, may be seen as an Israeli agent if he jails those who violate the truce. He hopes to gain strength as Israel makes concessions, and for now, the main Palestinian factions have voluntarily suspended attacks.

Israel says that it cannot risk being too indulgent and that Mr. Abbas must act against militants in the next two or three weeks or the peace process will freeze.

Over the course of the conflict, Israel maximized its bargaining position, by taking back territory and encouraging settlers to set up new outposts to extend their grip on the West Bank. By contrast, the Palestinians, whose main demand is statehood, find their negotiating leverage much reduced.

Mr. Mashharawi said they had shown that unless the Israeli occupation ended "there will be no peace and security in the region." And he warned of "another intifada" unless the Israelis moved swiftly to give Palestinians independence.

Israelis say they have forced Palestinians to rethink violence. In March 2002, during a wave of Palestinian attacks, Mr. Sharon declared: "The aim is to increase the number of losses on the other side. Only after they've been battered will we be able to conduct talks."

At the end of that March, Israel launched military offensives to seize Palestinian cities in the West Bank, control of which had been ceded under the Oslo peace process.

Now, the senior military official said, "the Palestinians at least the ones who make decisions came to the conclusion that violence will not achieve their political goals."

"I cannot say it is over," he cautioned, but he said that if the peace process succeeded, the Palestinian street might come to the same conclusion about violence "in a few weeks, and a few months."

He said the American wars in Afghanistan and Iraq , as well as new pressure from European and Arab states, had also helped change the Palestinian view on violence.

If the Palestinians end their uprising, their remaining levers for negotiations may be time and demography. With the Palestinian population growing rapidly, Jews will become a minority in Israel and its occupied territories within a few years, Israeli experts say. That may put either Israel's Jewish character or its democracy at risk if Palestinians do not form a separate state.

The new American-backed peace plan, known as the road map, calls for a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace and a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza in just three years. But Mr. Sharon has a longer time line in mind. The second of the peace plan's three phases a Palestinian state with "provisional" borders could ease Israel's demographic predicament without forcing it to confront the deepest disputes between the two sides, such as control of Jerusalem.

The military official said that Israel would not begin substantive political negotiations over questions like Jerusalem until the Palestinians had fully broken up militant groups, confiscating their weapons, destroying their training centers, arresting their dangerous members and ending all "incitement" to violence.

"They will have to get rid of all their terrorist capabilities," he said, acknowledging this could take years.

The Bush administration does not appear to be pressing Israel to abide by the plan's schedule. A Western diplomat said the administration was more interested in commitments met than dates kept.

As demanded under the plan, Israel has begun taking down some of the settlers' outposts, though new ones are going up. Little has been said about a freeze on further growth of established settlements called for in the plan's first phase.

To try to raise Mr. Abbas's popularity, Israel has begun releasing some of its more than 5,000 Palestinian prisoners, a step not in the plan. But as one senior Israeli official noted, there is a difference between releasing prisoners and conceding land: freed prisoners can always be arrested again.
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Oh, I see...

by Diogenes Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 11:30 AM

...another "Trifecta". 10,000 DEAD in Afghanistan, the Taliban back in control, Hamid Karzai a Prisoner in Kabul and Opium in full production - they are expecting a Bumper Crop - from which the Bush Fambly will profit. Iraq - 5 to 7 Thousand Dead (Just counting Civilians), Depleted Uranium Dust (Half Life 4.5 BILLION YEARS) Creating Toxic Dust Storms; a Guerilla War with increasing U.S. Caualties. We've only had another hundred dead since "hostilities ceased". No Clean Water, No Electricity, The National Museum Looted (not to worry though they did put Guards on the Oil Ministry); U.S. Puppets being Hacked to Death. And Wow he even has time to lend an assist in the Palestinian Genocide.

That's Quite SOME record.

And just a few odds and ends:

Attempting to gut the Constitutional Protections against illegal Search and Seizure, Secret Tribunals (Can you say "Banana Republic"?), Secret Executions (If the Lapdog Congress Rubber Stamps it.), illegal detention disregarding the Bill of Rights and we could go on.

His most famous quote being how much he would like to be a Dictator.

I wish I could laugh but all I want to do is vomit.

This is the most corrupt Presidency in the History of the Republic.

The Bastard should be:
Impeached
Tried and Convicted in The Senate
Indicted for Treason and Crimes against humanity
Tried
And if convicted ...

BUSH LIED, AS A RESULT PEOPLE DIED, AND MORE ARE DYING EACH DAY. It really is that horrific.
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Israelis sense that they've won

by Meyer London Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 12:18 PM

Yeah, the Germans sensed that they'd won after the fall of France, too. For that matter, the Israelis sensed that they's won after the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
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How do you figure?

by Dagny Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 2:31 PM

How do you figure the Bush family will profit from the Afghani opium crop?

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I don't know for sure...

by Diogenes Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 8:58 PM

...however, the Bush Family has a history of shall we say "tasteless" associations.

Decide for yourself. Here are a couple of basic articles which I guarantee you will not find in the Monopoly Media. Therefore the researchers looking into this are dealing in a murky subject. Having given my caveats I would suggest reading these for background. If nothing else they raise interesting questions:

The Bush-Cheney Drug Empire: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/bush-cheney-drugs.html

Osama Bin Laden’s Bush Family Business Connections: http://www.sumeria.net/politics/binladen.html

This is background:

Wall Street CIA and the Global Drug Trade: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/dontblink.html

High Level Drug Running (Part 1): http://www.nexusmagazine.com/beast1.html

High Level Drug Running (Part 2): http://www.nexusmagazine.com/beast2.html
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Murky indeed

by Dagny Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 9:51 PM

Sheepdog,

Thank you for the links. I wasn't able to find anything convincing to support your allegation that the Bush family will profit from the Afghani opium trade.

I'm not fond of websites that sell garbage (or, at best, partial truths) to the conspiracy-obsessed fringe. More often than not, these same websites also sell extraterrestrial and other paranormal hocuspocus -- like articles found on the Nexus source you listed ("Meetings with Remarkable Aliens: Jim Sparks describes his life-changing encounter with reptoid aliens, whose message for saving planet Earth may veil their true intentions.").

Having said that, I did read the articles. As you said, they do raise interesting questions and allegations. But I don't find the arguments convincing. I suppose it does make for dramatic books and videos that probably sell well enough to make people like Mike Ruppert very wealthy.



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Oops

by Dagny Saturday, Jul. 05, 2003 at 9:53 PM

I intende to address the note above to Diogenes.
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ROFL

by fresca Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 5:13 AM

"And Wow he even has time to lend an assist in the Palestinian Genocide. "

From a post virtually choking in classic dio misinfo and outright lies, this is my favorite.

The sheer scope of the fantasy is only shadowed by the balls it takes to type such inane nonsense. Perheps he meant "Palestinian (sic) Genocide Bombers". You know those lovely, noble peace-loving folk with that quirky propensity for blowing up on busses and in pizza parlours? Maybe that's what he meant. But I don't think Bush supports them, does he? Well, dio would know.

Of course the assertion that the Bush Family (the WHOLE family mind you) will somehow, dio's "not sure how", but will surely profit from the bumper opium crop is also a contender for boldest lie.

Then again, coming right out with the whopper of "the Taliban is back in control" should not be overlooked.

All in all, dio's done a fine job of weaving lies and misinfo into a seamless web of lunatic website sourced tripe.

WELL DONE!

Please notice how I have not tried to refute the claims.
As they are absurd and have rendered further discussion impossible there's no point.

I will use an ad hominem argument as that is the only way TO argue against a schizophrenic.

Consider it done.
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fresca

by fresca Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:13 AM

"Please notice how I have not tried to refute the claims."

Yes, I noticed that. It's because you CAN'T.
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Always a delight...

by Diogenes Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:26 AM

...and with such bloody good cheer. So, the Taliban comment was a trifle overstated - let me revise that to - in the area beyond the control of The President of the Pipeling from Unocal, Hamid Karzai, beyond Kabul Afghanistan is an Anarchy of Tribal Wars resulting from the first Campaingn of Bush Wrecks. Among the warring Tribal factions, per recent News Reports, is a strongly resurgent Taliban. There is that better. I didn't think so - as it is not in your Marching Orders to acknowledge the true state of Affairs.

And as you well know, as I have stated it on multiple occaisions, I do not agree with, or recognize as a valid means of Counter Attack, the Sacrifice Bomber attacks. Nevertheless I can understand why it happens. With the Jackbooted Thugs of the Israeli Genocide Force repressing and murdering innocents in their thinly veiled attempts to drive the Palestinians off their land,so that it can be stolen for a "good" Zionazi family, were I in their position would be doing my best to make things interesting for the Thugs of the IGF.
However, I suspect, Duhbya's black business dealings are well known to the expert Blackmailers of the Mossad. So, I think we can expect Duhbya to do what he is told. He's very good at it anyway as he would not appear to have the wit to do much thinking without "help".
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Thank you

by fresca Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:36 AM

Thank you for another squirt of sourceless drivel and fantasy allegations.

I rest my case.

I truly am beginning to think that maybe you ARE an actual CIA-paid disinfo op. You are certainly painting the left to be mindless fools.

Hmmmm?
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mindless

by Fools Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:42 AM

indeed. Nothing to back up your position again I see
eh fresca? This is like the tactic a pickpocket uses
when caught; by shrieking, Thief Thief!
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What's needed?

by fresca Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:53 AM

There hasn't been anything noteworthy here to discuss. Obviously, the nonsensical delusions of dio aren't something that one can respond to. There's nothing there to argue against.

It's like trying to argue with the content of someone's dreams when they tell you.

If dio needs to believe his utter nonsense, so be it. I'm not here to change his mind. He's nuts. I can only poke fun at it.

I do, however, suspect he's a paid operative and knows full well that he's floating discrediting nonsense.

It seems to be working to. He's got you fooled.
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fresca

by fresca Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:56 AM

"There hasn't been anything noteworthy here to discuss."
Unsubstantiated Allegation

"He's nuts."
Unsubstantiated Allegation

"I do, however, suspect he's a paid operative and knows full well that he's floating discrediting nonsense."
Unsubstantiated Allegation

"He's got you fooled."
Unsubstantiated Allegation

For more on logic at your level, try reading "Logic for Dummies."


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and then

by Fools Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:56 AM

they accuse the witnesses of colusion.
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Cocaine and Afghanistan

by Meyer London Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 11:46 AM

For some very interesting material on this subject type in the words Alexander Cockburn cocaine Bush Afghanistan on the google search engine.
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Chicks with Dicks

by Diogenes Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 12:12 PM

For even better and more interesting material, type in the words Chicks Dicks Dildos Ass-Pounding on the google search engine.
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mmm

by Scottie Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 at 7:46 PM

Diogenes,
Frankly I prefer real chicks. but I respct your lifestyle choice.

Scottie,
For more on logic at your level, try reading "Logic for Dummies."
Unsubstantiated Allegation

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explanation of his problems

by Meyer London Monday, Jul. 07, 2003 at 12:03 PM

We have stumbled upon the reason for the bogus
Diogenes' obvious psychological problems - the only "chicks" he's been able to establish relationships with are ones made oujt of plastic computer screens. Rather cold and hard to the touch, I should imagine.
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Scottie

by Ted Thompson Tuesday, Jul. 08, 2003 at 4:52 AM

Do you enjoy having conversations with yourself?
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