Israeli Roots of Hamas Are Being Exposed
by Dean Andromidas

Speaking in Jerusalem Dec. 20, U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer made the connection between the growth of the Islamic fundamentalist groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Israel's promotion of the Islamic movement as a counter to the Palestinian nationalist movement. Kurtzer's comments come very close to EIR's own presentation of the evidence of Israel's instrumental role in establishing Hamas, and its ongoing control of that organization.

Kurtzer said that the growth of the Islamic movement in the Palestinian territories in recent decades—"with the tacit support of Israel"—was "not totally unrelated" to the emergence of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their terrorist attacks against Israel. Kurtzer explained that during the 1980s, when the Islamic movement began to flourish in the West Bank and Gaza, "Israel perceived it to be better to have people turning toward religion rather than toward a nationalistic cause [the Palestinian Liberation Organization—ed.]." It therefore did little to stop the flow of money to mosques and other religious institutions, rather than to schools.

According to the Dec. 21 Israeli daily Ha'aretz, Kurtzer made these extraordinary statements at a seminar on religion and politics sponsored by Oz V'Shalom-Netivot Shalom, a largely Anglo-American organization that promotes peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein, the head of Har Etzion Yeshiva in Alon Shvut, who is an active advocate of a just regional peace, also spoke. Kurtzer said that as a result of the growth of Islam at the expense of education, there are now Palestinians who are "determined terrorists that use religious beliefs in a perverted way to appeal to the masses."

Kurtzer said that cultural and religious interaction is potentially a way to "build bridges." But instead, "the perverted use of religion in the region is today becoming one of the great challenges for the years ahead." He said that there is no "inherent component" in Islam that advocates violence. But one of the five principles of Islam, jihad—resistance—"in classic religious associations connotes religious belief and fervor, not violence." But extremists have distorted the meaning of jihad, so it now has a connotation of violence in the service of a religious purpose.

The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend

This statement is extraordinary given the fact that Kurtzer is a very senior diplomat, having held the post of Ambassador to Egypt just prior to going on to Tel Aviv. He is also an Orthodox Jew who is not shy of criticizing the extreme anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic views held by certain Arab circles. But Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon rarely grants the United States' highest representative in Israel an official audience.

The ambassador's comments are an acknowledgment of what any serious Middle East observers knows: Hamas has always been seen as a tool by which Israel could undermine the nationalist movement led by Palestinian Authority President and Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Chairman Yasser Arafat. Similar statements by Arafat have been dismissed by Israel as "cranky" propaganda. In an interview with the Dec. 11 Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Arafat said, "We are doing everything to stop the violence. But Hamas is a creature of Israel which at the time of Prime Minister [Yitzhak] Shamir [the late 1980s, when Hamas arose], gave them money and more than 700 institutions, among them schools, universities and mosques. Even [former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak] Rabin ended up admitting it, when I charged him with it, in the presence of [Egpytian President Hosni] Mubarak."

To the Italian daily L'Espresso, Arafat laid out the reasons for this support. "Hamas was constituted with the support of Israel. The aim was to create an organization antagonistic to the PLO. They received financing and training from Israel. They have continued to benefit from permits and authorizations, while we have been limited, even to build a tomato factory. Rabin himself defined it as a fatal error. Some collaborationists of Israel are involved in these [terror] attacks," he said. "We have proof, and we are placing it at the disposal of the Italian government."

On one level the support for Hamas is simply the application of the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Indeed, in the minds of crude Israeli ultra-nationalists and fascists such as Sharon and his faction, this is indeed the case. Sharon is not interested in peace and therefore is not concerned that the violence and needless deaths of Israelis and Palestinians continue. In the Jan. 3 Ha'aretz, Yossi Sarid, chairman of the Meretz party, wrote, "What does frighten Sharon ... is any prospect or sign of calm or moderation. If the situation were to calm down and stabilize, Sharon would have to return to the negotiating table and, in the wake of pressure from within and without, he would have to raise serious proposals for an agreement. This moment terrifies Sharon and he wants to put it off for as long as he possibly can." In contrast, Sarid said that Sharon understands "that the terrorists and those who give them asylum are not the real enemies. Instead, the real enemies are the moderates.... You fight terrorists—a pretty simple operation—but you must talk with moderates, and this is a very tricky, if not dangerous, business."

More important for the survival of not only the Palestinian people, but especially Israel itself, is the dangerous role of the puppetmasters outside the region, who are manipulating both sides of this deadly game as part of their own demonic plans to spread the policy of a "clash of civilizations." In this regard, Sharon, and his "Greater Israel" policy, is just as much a puppet as the Palestinian, strapped with explosives, who blows himself up at an Israeli bus station.

Two Decades of Undermining Arafat

Given the level of control that the Israeli intelligence services such as the Shin Bet and Mossad have been able to exert over the Palestinian territories during the last 35 years of Israeli occupation, the capability to manipulate militant and violent organizations, such as those associated with Hamas, should not surprise anyone familiar with intelligence and even routine police operations. This should be obvious, considering that Israel has routinely recruited thousands of collaborators and provocateurs among the tens of thousands of Palestinians who have passed through Israeli prisons in over 35 years of its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Most convincing is a comparison of the development of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and their antecedents, and the growing national and international legitimacy of the PLO and its undisputed leader, Arafat.

Hamas is an acronym for Harafat al-Muqawama Al-Islamiyya, or Islamic Resistance Movement. Its spiritual leader is Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who, despite his fiery anti-Israeli sermons, has had an unusual relationship with the Israeli authorities. In 1973, Yassin established the Islamic Association—at a time when it was Israeli policy to promote what Ambassador Kurtzer refers to as the "Islamic movement."

One might ask: Why should Israel promote an Islamic movement which later turns around and attacks it? How could the Israeli secret services be taken in by a Yassin? They weren't. The simple fact is, that the stated policy of Hamas is simply the flip side of Sharon's "Greater Israel" policy that refuses to seek a territorial compromise. The Hamas charter in 1988 stated, "The land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations, and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.... Peace initiatives, the so-called peace initiatives, are all contraray to the beliefs of Hamas, for renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." In this rhetoric there is no room for a state of Israel—as there is none for a state of Palestine in Sharon's "Greater Israel."

Israel's Hamas relations intensified after the Arab League, in 1974, decided to recognize Arafat and the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinian people—in effect, a government in exile. By 1979, top Yassin acquired an official permit from the Israeli government of Prime Minister Menachem Begin. This coincided with the signing of the Camp David peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. That treaty embodied detailed clauses calling for the establishment of a Palestinian Authority in the Occupied Territories, which would be the precursor for the Israeli withdrawal and the establishment of a Palestinian state. Gen. Ariel Sharon has been the chief proponent since this treaty was signed, of the policy of ensuring that these clauses would never be implemented. His chosen alternatives were war in Lebanon and the expansion of the Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories. Sharon was helped by the assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat by Anglo-American-controlled, Egypt-based Islamic terrorists.

`Policy of Strengthening Islamic Bodies'

Israeli toleration, if not initial sponsorship of the Islamic movement, has been acknowledged and well documented in Israeli sources. In 1997, the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, at Tel Aviv University, published a study, "Hamas: Radical Islam In A National Struggle," authored by Anat Kurz and Nahman Tal. It stated that the Islamic Association, "the platform of which contained no nationalist clauses, obtained a permit from the Israeli Civil Administration in 1979 to conduct its activities. The permit was apparently consistent with the Israeli policy of strengthening Islamic bodies as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalist groups."

The rapid expansion of the Islamic Association led to clashes on the Palestinian University campuses in the Occupied Territories in the 1980s, betwen PLO-affiliated students and those associated with the Islamists. This expansion was aided by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, where Sharon hoped to solve the "Palestinian problem" by militarily crushing the PLO—which was then based in Lebanon—and by carrying out genocide against the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in impoverished refugee camps in Lebanon. Despite his orchestration of the massacre of thousands of Palestinians, including women and children, at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps, Sharon failed to eliminate Arafat. Nonetheless, Arafat and the PLO were exiled to Tunisia, their influence severely weakened.

Sheikh Yassin, along with other Hamas leaders, was arrested in 1984, after it was discovered that the Islamic Association had maintained arms caches. But the organization was not banned. In fact, Yassin was soon released as part of an unprecedented prisoner exchange between Israel and Ahmed Jabril's PFLP-General Command. This deal, made with one of the most violent of all anti-PLO Palestinian groups at the time, was made in a period when the Mossad was busy assassinating the most moderate of PLO leaders.

Then, in 1988, the Islamic Association created Hamas as a direct alternative to the PLO, which had launched the first Intifada the year before. 1988 was also important because the PLO, at the 19th Conference of the Palestinian National Council in Algeria in 1988, accepted the United Nations Security Council resolution of 1947 calling for two states in Palestine. They also called for convening an international peace conference based on UN Resolutions 242 and 338, which established the land-for-peace concept. This was a de facto recognition of Israel by the PLO and Arafat. By the end of 1988, the Reagan Administration extended official recognition to the PLO as the official representative of the Palestinian people.

When Palestinian leader Abu Jihad began negotiating with Hamas, in an attempt to win its mass base over to the new policy, he was promptly assassinated by the Mossad.

Yassin, as all senior leaders of Hamas, is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the far-flung international Islamic organization with operations throughout the Islamic world. In the past, Anglo-American factions have not hesitated to manipulate the Brotherhood's various factions to destabilize secular Arab regimes. When Zbigniew Brzezinski launched the Afghan war against Russia in the 1980s, many of the Arab mujahideen fighters were recruited through Muslim Brotherhood-linked networks. The Muslim Brotherhood story fills volumes; the crucial point here is that Hamas, one of its branches, has traditionally stood in opposition to the secular nationalism of Arafat, the PLO, and its supporting governments.

Hamas has a peculiar organizational structure which contrasts sharply with that of the PLO. While within the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas exists as a broad political movement, its militant wings, the Izza-Din Al Qassam and Islamic Jihad, split-offs from the organization, are administered totally separately. These latter organizations, which are responsible for the attacks, are under the control of leaders who operate from abroad. Their offices are in London, where the group's magazine, Falatin Al Muslimah, is based; Jordan; Syria; and the United States, particularly in Virginia and Texas. Although Arafat has periodically tried to bring the popular base of Hamas into the Palestinian fold, the foreign-based military leadership has always opposed him.

This bifurcation dovetails with Sharon's strategy of launching brutal attacks against Hamas targets, in order to elicit the equally brutal response from Islamic Jihad and the Izza-Din Al Qassam. Thus Arafat, and diplomatic goals, are undermined, and the fires of civil war within the Occupied Territories are stoked.

The Anti-Oslo Terror Campaign Begins

The Oslo Accords marked the first glimmer of hope for a resolution of the Middle East conflict. And, the first suicide terrorist attack aimed at destroying it was not launched by Hamas or Islamic Jihad or another Palestinian faction. The first suicide attack was launched on Feb. 25, 1994, by Israeli terrorist Baruch Goldstein, when he entered the Mosque of Hebron and killed 50 Muslim worshippers as well as himself. Goldstein was a member of Kach, the terrorist organization founded by the late Meir Kahane, who also founded the Jewish Defense League in the 1960s in the United States. Kach, which is well connected to Sharon, is on the official U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations.

The unprecedented massacre was calculated to set the stage for a suicide bombing campaign by Hamas and its split-off, Islamic Jihad, over the next year. In fact, it set into motion the "cycle of violence" that has yet to end. The Goldstein attack came at precisely the point when Israeli Prime Minister Rabin and Arafat began the formal implementation of the Oslo agreement which envisioned the establishment of a Palestinian state by 1998. The first Hamas-linked suicide attacks did not start until two months later, in April 1994, when Rabin and Arafat signed the agreement for the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority. The agreement called for the conduct of free elections throughout the territories—which would eventually establish the international legitimacy of the Arafat-led government.

But despite this terror campaign, which lasted for months under a massive crackdown by Arafat's security forces, the Rabin-Arafat alliance, although seriously weakened, was not broken. This alliance was finally broken with Rabin's assassination by an Israeli, on Nov. 5, 1995.

The next phase of attacks followed the "targetted assassination" of Hamas bomb-maker Yahya Ayyash on Jan. 5, 1996. Although said to be "revenge attacks," they were in fact part of Hamas' campaign to get Benjamin Netanyahu elected Israeli prime minister. This was admitted by Ibraham Ghawshah, Hamas' official spokesman resident in Amman, Jordan. He said that it was part of their strategy to influence Israeli public opinon to bring down the entire Oslo process. The election of Netanyahu indeed fulfilled all their hopes, especially after he launched his own provocations, which not only brought about the pre-calculated Hamas response, but also brought the region several times to the brink of war.

This tit-for-tat campaign reached the height of insanity when Netanyahu, under the direction of Sharon, who was a member of his government at the time, launched a Mossad assassination attempt in 1997 against the Jordan-based Hamas official Khalid Mishaal. Not only did the attempt fail, but it led to Israel agreeing to release Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Yassin from an Israeli jail, where he had been under arrest since 1989. Yassin was allowed to return to Gaza to rally Hamas against the Oslo process in general, and Arafat in particular.

This pattern has continued to this very day. Netanyahu's downfall in 1999 led to the short-lived government of Ehud Barak, who despite much talking and negotiating, furthered the Oslo process not one iota. By the end of the Summer of 2000, the stage was set for Sharon's ultimate provocation, his Sept. 28 march on to the Islamic holy site Al-Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

Since coming to power, Sharon has done everything to ensure the collapse of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. If successful, it would either bring Hamas to power or lead to political chaos within the terrorities.

Fake Terror and the Road to War and Dictatorship: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/index.html

...for dirtying the Arabs' air.

They should just march into the Med and save Hamas and the other Freedom Fighters the trouble.

...assmole spamming the wire 24/7 on behalf of his bushiite paymasters in sabotage of critical thinking - no counterarguments to speak of,only pathetic pseudosarcasm on their part.

fuck them and fuck busharon.

"...assmole spamming the wire 24/7 on behalf of his bushiite paymasters in sabotage of critical thinking - no counterarguments to speak of,only pathetic pseudosarcasm on their part.

fuck them and fuck busharon."

And this, presumably, is the penultimate in philosophical discourse.

...against the above posted article - ie against sharon as govt terrorist sponsoring spurring using hamas.

therefore it is quite right to say he spams the wire with baseless hogwash - and why? either he's crazy or he gets paid by the govt.

also see:

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=325132&group=...

...for the above posted article.

Therefore it is quite right to say she believes every wacko theory posted on imc - and why? either she's crazy or her tinfoil hat is on shiny side in.

...she agrees with the author because the author gives a hell of a lot of arguments.

burden of proof in YOUR baseless accusations of crankiness against andromidas.

you really are a fuckin' moron.

go give bush another blowjob,moniker.

...won't pick a nickname.

I don't have to give any reasons why I disagree; I'm not trying to convince anyone.

Andromidas, and the people who agree with him, however, do have the burden of proof....which, as far as I've concerned has not been met.

Take your cowardly obscenities elsewhere, yo-yo.

there are many solid arguments in andromidas's essay - none in your crappy conments.

on yer hind legs,poodle - busharon under way...

Yeah, that's the way to win converts to your cause!

I repeat...the burden of proof is on you guys.

And no matter how much you whine about it, I get to decide what convinces me...not you.

Oh, yeah...you're still a coward.

you accuse andromidas,you must say why.

or could it be that you can't?

Anti-Semitic rants like the one published above get a bit tiresome.

Dean Andromidas trots out the same tired rhetoric and tries to make it seem like a history lesson.

This line makes me laugh:

"the growing national and international legitimacy of the PLO and its undisputed leader, Arafat. "

That shows just how far out of touch with reality Adromidas really is. Quite the opposite is true. There is a growing international recognition of the fact that Yassir Arafat is, was, and always will be a terrorist and not a statesman.

There can be no real peace in the middle eastern region until Arafat is finally and completely removed from a position of power and influence.

Members of Hamas, islamic Jihad, Al Queda, and other terrorists need to be hunted down and shot like the dogs that they are. They can never have a seat at the negotiation table. You simply don't negotiate with terrorists period.

KOBE is alive and well on IndyMedia. They used to focus on Islamic forums, but now that they shut most of them down through harassment, they've turned to other targets. IndyMedia is now their target. Much information on KOBE has been published here and at other locations. Their physical location is known. It's been reported here. KOBE works out of Harbor City. Residents of LA could shut them down, but so far LA residents have proven themselves to be cowards.

Yes, KOBE is paid to do what it is doing.

hey assmole=fresca=daveman:

either you have arguments.or else shut the bloody fuck up.

now that you been exposed by the commentator here above me,you've grown suspiciously silent...

thanx all troll chasers and exposers.

May I taste your semen?

Let me guess, blue and white?

unwelcome back,troll.

return to sender (busharon)

...to command such attention and obsession.

Thank you.

Don't let me down.

9-11. The day the muslims hit us.

911:the day the traitor bush hit hit own people.

back to the point:
sharon is a yterrorist protecting hamas to perpetuate war and not give up the territories.

don't get emotional,"fresca"="bush Admirer"="daveman" etc

"sharon is a yterrorist protecting hamas to perpetuate war and not give up the territories."

This one's a gem.

As much as I am for letting "palestine" become it's own state (and won't it be a beaut)..I can imaging that Sharon is not dying to give away two large chunks of Israel's land.

But oh well. Since Israel is the only side who ever makes overtures towards peace, I suspect they'll continue.

If only Sharon would stop protecting those wily Hamas savages.

And, at the risk of being called racist, I formally will now refer to Hamas murderers as Towelheads.

...because he's the one who sponsored hamas since its inception as the article aptly shows.

Sharon also corked Sosa's bat and, turns out, was behind Laci Peterson's murder.

You got it!

Fresca: I beg you to reconsider your use of "towelhead", as it may indeed be perceived as racist.

Use "splodeydope", instead...the only garment it refers to is the Dynamite Vest of Peace (tm).

To the coward: I don't feel any obligation to justify my opinions to cowards.

Stealth IP Worm: Ooooh...scary guy. Wow, you're an idiot. What is it around here, with all the self-styled hackers who can't hack their way out of a sauerkraut-soaked paper bag? Further, the arrogance: "We are SO right, the people who disagree with us must ONLY be one person, and he's a racist cyber-terrorist, too!" Here's a little hint that will get you through what you're using instead of a life: GET OVER YOURSELF. Do that, and I guarantee you'll be a lot happier.

"now that you been exposed by the commentator here above me,you've grown suspiciously silent... "

Geez, you yo-yo coward...you sound like you just craked the Walker spy ring. I repeat: get over yourself.

Back to the (stupid) topic at hand: Sharon supports Hamas. That must be pretty confusing for you guys. On one hand, he's supporting your heroes, the Jew-killing Hamas, so he's a good guy. On the other hand, he's a Jew, so that automatically makes him a bad guy. What's a Jew-hating imc'er to do?

You left out Sharon's responsibility for the extinction of the dinosaurs and the sun eventually swelling and consuming the inner planets.

Darn JOOOS!

"Fresca: I beg you to reconsider your use of "towelhead", as it may indeed be perceived as racist. "

You'd be right if I was referring to human beings, but alas, creatures who would strap themselves with TNT and blow up in the middle of a crowd of innocent people, are NOT human.

I would never refer to an Arab who was not involved with this or other heinous activities as a towelhead any more than I would refer to a Southern white who didn't hate blacks as a cracker.

Point well taken though.

...we agree.

It's been real; I'm outta here. Hold down the fort 'til tomorrow, okay?

davie and frescaw between the 2 of them have produced ZERO in the way of valid arguments.

Their argumetation can be summarized as:

Taunts

Slurs

False analogies

Charicatures.

Between the two of them there is not one valid counter argument against what the article asserts.

Makes you wonder don't it?

..but if you care to, read the THIRD post where I summarized my feelings on this ridiculous assertion and clearly pointed out where it's inane logic was.

These kind of stupid, ridiculous, feeble theories, which are so common around here are incredibly hard to respond to seriously.

Your complaint that I or Daveman or whoever, make no valid argument against the original post is absurd. You say that as if the there was even a serious discussion going on. There wasn't. Simply because some asshole TYPED some nonsense about the mossad creating Hamas, of all the clearly nonsensical ideas, you think it's a critical debate all of a sudden.

You're an idiot. You really are an idiot. You have no ability to discern fantasy from plausiblity. Everything is fact if you read it from a source you've come to trust.

Anyway, I trounced this nonsense days ago.

Bring on the next bit of foolishness.

... a pompous ass about grammer and spelling, that it's, caricature. genius.

Many highly intelligent people are poor spellers. Einstein was famous not only as a genius, but as a poor speller. Many mildly retarded people spell very well. Some mildly retarded people have photographic memories. In many cases, there seems to be a trade off between surface accuracy and depth in understanding. This is why many normal people "take Rational Normal Person" as an example, would make good clerks and many intelligent people (e.g. Einstein) would make horrible clerks.

It is a sign of low intelligence to attach great significance to petty details such as spelling and transparent organization. Often higher levels of organization are not obvious. As such they appear disorganized to the unintelligent. This is why "Rational Normal Person" and fresca often claim to see muddledness when, in fact, they lack the intellectual equipment necessary to identify the more abstract level of organization present in a publication.

Most of the brilliant people I have known have messy desks, messy cars, and messy homes. Most of the less intelligent people I have known are neat freaks. If you think about this, it makes sense. The unintelligent often need to physically organize their environment to make up for the structure that their mind lacks. Intelligent people often organize internally and are able to maintain mental references to the locations and details of physically disorganized items. In computer science the difference is analogous to that which is physically ordered (e.g. an array of data organized such that elements bearing some relationship are addressed sequentially) and logically ordered whereby references to such elements are organized while the elements themselves remain in their scattered locations. The former is more efficient for trivial operations (such as the petty logic of KOBE members) and the later is more efficient for complex operations (such as the deep thought processes of opponents to fascism).

If you were to take a KOBE member and deposit that KOBE into an unknown culture without prior training, the KOBE would flounder and panic (culture shock). If you were to deposit an anti-fascist into an unknown culture, chances are he or she would adapt quickly and figure things out. People of low intelligence prefer overt structure (law and rules). People of high intelligence prefer dynamic structure (principles and reason).

Obviously you've copy and pasted the time-honored "Einstein was a bad speller so all bad-spellers are genius' " nonsense with some familiar names inserted to make it seem like you've come up with it on your own.

Nice try, but this particular gem betrays what a moron you are...

"If you were to deposit an anti-fascist into an unknown culture,"

Did you really write that? Are you actually so stupid that you thought that anyone that could be charcaterised as an "anti-fascist" (which, by the way, accounts for, oh about, all of the world's poulation) would have an innate leg up on solving the riddle of a foriegn culture over the likes of, gasp, someone like myself who was articulate and can spell?

I suggest you clean your room and rethink this whole, "lexical disorganization = high intelligence" theory of yours. After all, this IS a forum for expression limited to ONLY the written word. Any "genius" hiding under bad grammar and spelling will not be exposed.

I like bukakke
by fresca • Monday June 09, 2003 08:22 AM



May I taste your semen?

fresca, you are a sicko. Please take your sexual perversions elsewhere.

...is just more Jew-hating.

The author and those who agree with him are so unwilling to lay the blame for Palestinian extremists on the poor misunderstood murderous trash they feel the need to make up drivel blaming THE ONLY DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN THE REGION...who, not uncoincidentally, happen to be Jewish, for the most part.

Repeat after me: democratic government, good; homicide bombers, bad.

Now, you may all start whining about how you don't hate Jews, it's the occupation, they started it, Jewish agression, too poor to wage a real war, Mossad evil, Zionazis, blah blah, and similar trash that doesn't conceal your Jew-hatred but highlights it.

Deny it all you want. You're lying.

...Israeli's are in such imminent danger that they have uproot insanely aggressive Orange Groves and Olive Groves.

The Motto of the Mossad: "By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War".

Daveman, Fresca, et. al are all KOBE members.
by Stealth IP Worm • Sunday June 08, 2003 01:59 PM



KOBE is alive and well on IndyMedia. They used to focus on Islamic forums, but now that they shut most of them down through harassment, they've turned to other targets. IndyMedia is now their target. Much information on KOBE has been published here and at other locations. Their physical location is known. It's been reported here. KOBE works out of Harbor City. Residents of LA could shut them down, but so far LA residents have proven themselves to be cowards.

Yes, KOBE is paid to do what it is doing.



WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I dont give a shit if you burn Computers NLA down to the fucking ground. I dont have anything to do with them, and they dont have anything to do with me. I buy computer parts from them. I also buy cigarettes from 7-11, and I drive a Mercedes. I am fond of Haagen Dazs, and I like to eat at Rocky Cola on Pacific Coast Highway occasionally. I suggest that you organize a protest against all those entities as soon as possible. HOP TO IT!

Also, you ARE the laughing stock of Indymedia, and your foolish delusions dont fly here in California. So I am fresca, Diogenes, Daveman, Sheepdog, and whomever else you said? Have you made this brilliant deduction as a result of the 10 milligram increase in your Paxil prescription?

YOU CANNOT SHUT KOBE HEADQUARTERS DOWN NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. Just forget it. You dont know who I am, where I am, and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do.

laughing....

what a zoo!

the article aptly provides numerous arguments for the israeli right protecting hamas' leaders,aided by us/uk.

so either you got counterarguments or else shut the fuck up,motherfucking cia mole.

...payed by the govt to spam critical thinking on indy 24/7 with his senseless drivel.

this is an old one, probably the oldest one.
two posters getting into a fight totally off the thread.
Did HAMAS SERVE AS ANOTHER TOOL OF THE CRIMINAL CABAL?

...you'd care to explain these incidents:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/302577.html
"Israel Defense Forces sources
said that the missiles were
fired at a terrorist cell that

was about to launch mortar shells at the nearby
Netzarim settlement.

The two dead were identified by sources in Hamas
as members of the Islamic militant group's Iz a
Din al-Kassam Brigades military wing."

First the IDF fires at Rantisi, the Hamas second-in-command. Then they kill some more Hamas.

Hardly the way to treat valued employees, is it?

It's the ultimate retirement program. Coming soon to a place near you.

...I just KNEW you guys would spin it that way.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

And insist there ARE no trees.

Notice how the Eagle in the KKKOBE Logo is Fucking the Flag.

How appropriate.

After All KOBE is as American as NAZISM.

And about as true to the ideals of the Revolution.

oh coincidence:
the rentisi-aimed missiles miss him
first,2 warning missiles get fired near the car and precious time gets given to rantisi to flee nearly unhurt.

innocents die as usual+small fish as usual.

usual sharon way to treat valuable emloyees.

and yassin roams free.

Hunting down and killing Hamas terrorists is the only way to go.

The only other options are:

1/ Leave them alone to do their killing as terrorizing as they please, or

2/ Negotiate with them. Negotiating with terrorists will get you nowhere (as we've seen from decades of attempted negotiations with Yasser Arafat).

The Israelis haven't done everything correctly (starting settlements was dumb) but going after Hamas terrorist leaders with helicopter gunships is the exact right thing to do. Hamas must be exterminated, period.

go tell sharon to target yassin and not let rantisi flee,asshole.

after aqaba had sharon not restarted the killings maybe things would be better now.

Israel is a country that retaliates against terrorist organizations that purposely kill innocent women and children.

The PLO is a government that supports terrorist organizations that purposely kill innocent women and children.

The Isrealis are the good guys here.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

I bow to your Buddah nature.....

It is better to be alive.

There is becoming increasingly less room for discussion every day.


There is really only one truth to all of this.

If the "palestinians" lay down there arms there will be peace. If Israel lays down it's arms there will be no more Israel.

There is absolutely no evidence that the "palestinians", including the subhumans of hamas et.al, the leadership and even the general populace, want peace or are, at least, willing to do anything to accomplish it.

The terrorists remain unencumbered by leadership to commit genocide attack after genocide attack. It 's time for Israel to end this. There will be no peace until ALL of the racist and savge terrorists of "palestine" are annihilated. It is time for a cleansing.

Any arguments apologizing for the "palestinians" and whining about their "oppression" and "occupation" simply don't wash. The de facto leaders and heros of "palestine"; hamas et.al. have designed all their actions to destroy peace. Why? Because they simply hate Jews and will not stop, if left unchecked, until Israel ceases to exist.

One can only hope that Israel and it's allies start seeing the animals of hamas, al aqusa brigade, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah as what they are. They are simply the enemy in a war and it's time to stop "talking" with them and simply kill them and their supporters wholesale.

This, by the way, has nothing to do with race. The people these murderers hurt the most are their own arab brothers and sisters who the knowingly keep trapped in a war. In fact, the most beautiful sight I could think of would be the picture of a small Israeli hand holding a small arab hand and together squeezing the trigger of a gun pressed against the temple of a hamas genocide bomber.

In no uncertain terms. It's time to stop talking and start killing.

...to the Middle East is more killing, more bloodshed, more broken lives, more misery.

So goeth the JDL/ADL/JINSA/AIPAC party lines.

frescaw's solution is the final one: Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, hate, kill some more, hate some more, kill again, hate again, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill!

..do you suggest we do with hams and murderous animals like them?

I say kill them where they stand.

Please let us know your solution.

You are very quick to comdemn Israel for everything and to apologize for all actions of the "palestinians".

Tell us, Dio, what's your idea for peace.

I hope you answer, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

You screwed up, Dio.

That's the Hamas/jihadist mantra.

The last line is:

"...until there are no more Jews"

...despite all your support, all your professed love for the poor, downtrodden freedom fighters:

They'd like you either

1. Converted to Islam.

2. Enslaved.

3. Dead.

How's that for gratitude, huh? Sheesh! Apologize for and support some people, and all it gets you is dead. Bogus.

What I wanna know is why is the cream of America found on this channel? There is so much that all of U people know.... Wow.

Why arent u people working for some government agencies or some charity group... or Disney cuz some of U are some really funny motherfuckers...

Fresca U fucking cow.. Walt Disney should have had ur imagination... If U wanna know answers to all ur questions go out and do some research. There is something known as reading or libraries. Maybe U have heard of them

This joke is for all of U experts on Islam ... ENJOY.


The Discussion

A stranger is seated next to Little Johnny on the plane when the stranger turned to Little Johnny and said, "Let's talk. I've heard that flights will go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger. "

Little Johnny, who had just opened his book, closed it slowly and said to the stranger, "What would you like to discuss?" "Oh, I don't know," said the stranger. "How about Islam?" "Ok," said Little Johnny. "That could be an interesting topic.

But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow and a deer all eat grass the same stuff. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you
suppose that is?"

"Jeez," said the stranger, "I have no idea."

"Well, then" said Little Johnny, "How is it that you feel qualified to discuss Islam when you don't know shit."

What knowledge of Islam is neccessary in order for me to observe that "palestinian" terrorists are bent on destroying all ALL of Israel. Is there some particular passage of the Koran that will make me understand why a group of people have repeatedly shown by their actions and their words to be only interested in the complete destruction of the state of Israel? Might you be able to explain a more oblique subtlety of your most peaceful religion that will illuminate why anyone should see hamas, et.al. and all those who support them as murderers who want anyhting BUT peace?

Well?

Please Omar, shed some light.

You can read and research and still not know Islam, because you weren't "born" into it, huh?

Seems you've had some unflattering things to say about other religions, though, Omar.

But how can that be?

You weren't born into them. So you can't intelligently discuss them.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it's Double Standards Days at IndyMedia!

...if it's typing it's lying.

Both you and davie misrepresent my position. This shows just how bankrupt your apologia for Israeli War Crimes is.

frescaw sez: "You are very quick to comdemn Israel for everything and to apologize for all actions of the "palestinians". "

Notice the broad generality "everything" - if you want to offer a blanket slur and misrepresentation state in generalities.

As for apologizing for the actions of the Palestinians again this is a broad vacuous generality.

I have made it clear in past Posts that I do not support attacks against civilian targets. In general I regard the attacks as counterproductive and just plain wrong - regardless of the provocation - and there has been plenty of that.

As for davie's commentary:
"...despite all your support, all your professed love for the poor, downtrodden freedom fighters:

They'd like you either

1. Converted to Islam.

2. Enslaved.

3. Dead.

How's that for gratitude, huh? Sheesh! Apologize for and support some people, and all it gets you is dead. Bogus."

Again the use of broad universal generalities. If you conditioned it with the word "some" it would be true as it stands now it is false.

The average Arab is like any other Human Being - they have needs, wants, and desires. Basically I believe most of them are willing to live in Peace. You do not however, win their support or assent by treating them as subhuman, stealing their land, destroying their homes and killing their children.

In any event we have gotten a long way from the original article which is that some of the problems now face by the Israeli's is blow back from their own double dealing. While I don't approve of the violence it is sadly poetic that the organization they created to undermine Arafat's PLO is now one of the more virulent strains of resistance.

"As ye soweth so shall ye reap."

Answer the damn question Dio, you whining blowhard.

What is your solution for peace?

And excuse me if "just plain wrong" didn't quite register as a condemnation of the terrorist monsters.

...a high pitched whine.

As always frescaw you accuse others of your own failings.

There is no short pithy answer to your question and you know it. That is, of course, why you asked it.

A good start would be for Israel to stop stealing Palestinian Land, Killdozing their homes and Groves, and indiscriminately bombing without regard to who might be in the way.

Israel has the ability to cease it's provocations. Israel is in the position of power. That is why it is incumbent upon Israel to disestablish the Illegal Settlements for starters.

However, actions speak louder than words. The actions of the Israeli Government do not indicate that it is really interested in any solution than the complete subjugation of the occupied Territories and expulsion of the original inhabitants. This is evidenced both in their writings and their actions.

Unfortuanately their has been so much blood spilled on both sides, and injustices committed by both sides, that a cooling off period is needed. That is why it is essential to abandon the illegal settlements as a gesture of good faith. Treating the Palestinian People as People would be another requisite. Conversely the Suicide Bombings need to be stopped. However, recognizing that support for them is generated by Israel's own actions is necessary to get a handle on the problem.

As it stands now with all the blood and enmity that has been past it will take a minimum of a generation or more to heal. But it takes a willingness to stop the cycle of violence.

"However, recognizing that support for them is generated by Israel's own actions is necessary to get a handle on the problem. "

I've always said that the settlements must go. But realizing that Israel's actions are the result of genocide bombings is paramount.

..."Genocide Bombings" my ass.

From my World Book:

genocide, noun.
the systematic extermination of a cultural or racial group.
Ex. The theoretical basis for the practice of genocide existed in the corroding Nazi doctrine of race (V. H. Bernstein).

(Mid 20th Century Coined from Greek genus "race" + CIDE.)

Auschwitz was Genocide. Sacrifice Bombings are murder - or Guerilla Warfare.

Your, I believe intentional, misuse of the word is just another example of your dishonest argumentation.

I am sure that anybody who is neutral will find that your arguments are very good and may I add very logical. As for FresCOW girl just GIVE UP. Its obvious u have no interest in finding a balanced view. I wont even answer your answer with a quote from the Koran because quite frankly your having so much trouble understanding what is being said so far I dont want to confuse ur lame ass

"A tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye"

Please explain why it is ok for the Israelis to murder Palestinian civilians and the Palestinians to not respond like wise. I would like to add that I find both the practice of suicide bombings and the use of the armed forces for the murder of civilians as abhorent but what is food for the goose is food for the gander.

The whole shitty argument that U have stems from u trying to state that the palestinians kill and the israelis retaliate. YOU FUCKING SLUT do u think the palestinians are mad, u think they dont wanna live; is it so fucking easy to kill oneself. They are fighting for the right of self determnation. Let me make it simpler for ur corn eating heipher ass they are doing it for "Life liberty & pursuit of happiness" something that they are not enjoying right now, which should be clear to any body with half a brain cell.

I think Patrick Henry said it best
" I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! ... "

There are three times as many Arabs killed in this last intifada as jews and it is the Arabs who are the terrorists. As if someone wearing a uniform has the right to go and kill innocent people and someone who uses gorilla tactics to respond does not. are u really this stupid? Im really starting to think u are and this isnt some act.

Hamas has sated that they desire to "kill jews wherever they may be found".

that's genocide. The bombings are attempts at genocide. Guerrilla warfare they are certainly not.

"They are fighting for the right of self determnation."

Bullshit. Hamas and others like them don't give a fuck about "self-determination". They simply hate Jews. No different from the Nazis.

"There are three times as many Arabs killed in this last intifada as jews and it is the Arabs who are the terrorists. As if someone wearing a uniform has the right to go and kill innocent people and someone who uses gorilla tactics to respond does not. are u really this stupid? Im really starting to think u are and this isnt some act. "

Again with this tired old argument. The fact that "palestinian" terrorism has brought the obvious Israeli retaliation and led to many deaths hardly casts the ill light on Israel. Every time one of your heros blows itself up in it's noble effort for "self-determination" it is responsible for whatever retaliation is meted out. Simply put.

If the "palestinians" lay down their aems there will be peace.
If Israel lays down it's arms there will be no Israel.

You know this is true you dolt.

But then I understand where you're coming from.

You. like all of your "peace-loving" Islamic brothers are willing to fight Jews to the last palestinian.

Oh Omar, it's great fun to watch you squirm and apologize for the subhumans in your camp.

Carry on, zookeeper.

not only how bitter and hateful fresca is but the peculiar fashion in
which it can't seem to get the idea or rant out in one post?
Or the tendency to label anything that disparrages the resistance to
the brutal occupation of the IDF as againt jews?
We fairly well know from whence fresca recieves its
paycheck.

you really crack me up... :D I will get back to u an answer soon enough but just to ask u waht the fuck do u mean by if Israel puts down its arms there will be no israel. U think Israel will ever give up its arsenal of 200 nuclear war heads. There are no ifs and buts in life BIAAAATCH!!! if auntie had balls she would have been an uncle. Dont fool yourself and dont give such a stupid agrument. Israel should give back the territories that it stole during the wars and stop settlements on occupied land and should give palestinians the right for self determination. Otherwise there will never be peace in Israel.

israel under sharon does not crack down on hamas because it never targets ie protects yassin,an israeli creature.

and lets rantisi flee.

in sabotage of the peace process.

it is the israeli govt of sharon who's butchering jews by constantly proyecting and sponsoring hamas leader yassin. sharon is the worst traitor of jews.

give us the original link/source of the andromidas article?

thanx

I have to believe that you are a put on. Even the most staunch believer in the gutter philosophy of extreme Islam couldn't believe have of the nonsense you jabber on about. Either that or you simply are a very young idiot. Either way your views are irrelevant as they are one fantasy after the next.

Israel stole no land during any war. Arab racists lost it.
Israel should and does retaliate after every genocide bombing. What part don't you understand?

You're rooting for the wrong team there abdul.

You are very funny though so keep it up.

this unsupported noise was brought to you by fresca, the jackel.

"Israel should give back the territories that it stole during the wars and stop settlements on occupied land and should give palestinians the right for self determination."

I've always said that the settlements should ALL be abolished and that Isarel should GIVE the territories in question to the "palestinians" as a show of faith. That said, no one can actually believe that that would lead to peace. Groups like Hmas don't give a fuck about these issues; they simply want to kill Jews and eliminate Israel.

I'm all for letting the "palestinians" have there own state and let them sink or swim. However, ALL acts from Hamas et.al should be dealt with with an extremely heavy fist.

There, Now it seems we're in agreement.

...should be dealt with by standard Law Enforcement - well armed Law enforcement.

Just like you would deal with any other dangerous criminal.

They should be given a fair trial.

And then hung.

...armed "settlers" terrorizing their neighbors to drive them out or kill them.

"...armed "settlers" terrorizing their neighbors to drive them out or kill them."

Agreed.

Now I know we are constantly at each other's throat and rarely see eye to eye but, for the sake of this one question, please forget all that.

Do you honestly think that groups like Hamas can be dealt with using purely law enforcement and a court system?

I don't know. I have my doubts.

Dealing with Hamas in a legal/court system is ridiculous.

You must hunt them down and shoot them. They're terrorists. Israel understands that. Dorky liberals do not.

...it can be handled largely with Standard Law Enforcement Procedures. It might require a Special Task Force on the model of Elito Ness's Untouchables, and some Special Ops People, but it could be done if the will existed.

You remove the head of the Snake and then it is a dead entity.

However, as I have pointed out previously much of the support Hamas enjoys is the result of hamhanded and inhumane practices that are ongoing.

You don't win people's hearts and minds by crushing their spirit and stealing from them. This is not a problem which will be solved overnight. It would require a real desire to co-exist in peace well communicated. That is not occuring now. The most effective type of Counter-Insurgency is to remove popular support. You do that by PROVING that you do not mean evil by the people you are courting, and then making it safe to turn in the real criminals.

This is not an overnight solution, but it is a long term one which would work and would keep the problem in check.

it is sharon who will not deal with hamas because he never targets yassin because he needs him like bush needs osama.

Bush doesn't need Osama and Sharon doesn't need Yassin either.

You do need medication though.

I hope those guys wake up some morning and realize, "Wow. We worship the same god yet kill each other over slight details." Same goes for those Christians in this country and elsewhere who think all Jews or Muslims are going to hell (e.g., President "W").

Best case scenario - everyone realizes religion for what it is...a social construction that can be useful for some, but is not important for others. Got ecumenicalism?

Was it something I said? Ive never actually argued with a corn eating hieffer before so this is kinda fun. You can call me Abdul or Muhammad or any of the other beautiful names FRISK-M'-NUTS but to answer your question let me ask U another question?

What came first? The chicken or the egg? How can U say any with certainity? its the same situation with this crises in Israel. To answer the question of who is at fault and from where this cycle started we need to see who made the first move.

Lets see now. People from Distant lands come to ur country and kick u out saying that their ancestors lived there a couple of thousands years ago so this is their land, they horde u into certain aeras, build their homes where ur homes used to be, carry out an active program of starving u of an economy, to keep u in a slavish state. You dont have freedom to move, freedom of speech, safety. Any fucking clown in a uniform can come to ur house search it without giving a reason, your women and children are raped, your religious places are desecrated by politicians looking for gaining popularity and you are treated as untouchables in your own backyard.

I mean I Know your ancestors have already done this to Native Indians so you may not think anything worng with it but anybody who is looking for a better life will do anything to improve a very bad situation. But just for ur, and im sure very ugly, ass let me say once again I am against the taking of innocent life whether it is by terrorists or freedom fighters or armed forces. Your writing betrays you utter hatred for my religion and the very definite under dogs in this fight the palestinians.

Let me ask u another question? Do U think George Washington was portrayed as a hero or a terrorist when he was fighting the war of independence. Im sure the media of the time would have portrayed him as a terrorist. The only people he would have been a hero to is the people for whose freedom he was fighting. It is the same thing with the Palestinians.

Since u seem to refer to my religion a lot let me me know which religion u follow so that maybe I can take a pot shot or two at you HOLIER THAN THOU attitude. Once again let me repeat you can take an ass to the water but U cant make it drink and I refer to FresCOW in particular when I write that

"Lets see now. People from Distant lands come to ur country and kick u out saying that their ancestors lived there a couple of thousands years ago so this is their land, they horde u into certain aeras, build their homes where ur homes used to be, carry out an active program of starving u of an economy, to keep u in a slavish state. You dont have freedom to move, freedom of speech, safety. Any fucking clown in a uniform can come to ur house search it without giving a reason, your women and children are raped, your religious places are desecrated by politicians looking for gaining popularity and you are treated as untouchables in your own backyard. "


Nice try. Really. The rape fantasy was a nice touch as was the notion that no jews lived in the area to begin with and that those that came there didn't buy ALOT of land.
Furthermore, leaving out the part where the ARABS came in and actually stole land was brilliant.

All in all a fine bit of fiction.

I can't wait to hear your retelling of WW2.

...we can talk about whether the Caananites or the Hittites had a stronger claim.

The Jews were kicked out by the Romans. (Some of those Jews who had to head for cooler climes were my ancestors.) However, that was about 2000 years ago. The people who remained behind are the ancestors of the current Palestinians. They have as much right to claim the land upon which they were already living as anyone and a bit better than most.

P.S. Had your morning Coffee yet frescaw? What time do you start 9 A.M.?

"P.S. Had your morning Coffee yet frescaw? What time do you start 9 A.M.?"

Just got home from work. 15 hours. Too many.

"This is not an overnight solution, but it is a long term one which would work and would keep the problem in check."

Well, as you've answered this question, and somewhat answered a question I've been asking for awhile now (what would be your peace plan?), I sincerely say "Thank You".

I would back (as if I'd ever be asked) a chance at peace involving dismantling of ALL settlements, a heavy handed legal effort at dealing with the terrorists and some sort of territory for a Palestinian state. The only reason I hesitate on the issue of the land is because I question what is the BEST land scenario. It seems that creating a Palestinian that is bisected into two distinct areas will not start a fledging state out on the right foot.

So, what do you support the typical two stae solution involving the West Bank and Gaza and part of Jerusalem as Palestine or some other idea?
Please tell me.

support armed enforcement against Israel for thier violations of UN security council resolutions, just like they did in Iraq.

** To Dio: you're talking about what the Romans did to the Judean Jews (meaning Jews of Judea, as the WHOLE Land of Israel was named at the time) as if it was one single isolated act and as if all the Jews were removed. This is very far from the truth.
The TRUTH is the Romans had expelled (from 70 AD to 135 AD) some Jews and sold out many more to slavery in foreign lands, yet tens of thousands of Jews REMAINED behind.
At 135 AD the Romans renamed Judea "Palestine" in order to disassociate the land from the Jewish people in the minds of the world.
Now, to say these Jews were "the ancestors of the current Palestinians" is bulls**t.
While it's true a few Jews were forcibly converted to Islam starting from the mid 7th century, their number is too small to matter.
Furthermore, even most of the Arabs who settled starting from the 7th century in Palestine have been migrating to and from the land intermittently. As for the Arabs that were there under Ottoman rule - their ranks were very small.
Only the instant Jews began coming to the land en masse in 1882 and generating little by little economic prosperity did large numbers of Arabs from neighboring countries begin to flock to Palestine. THESE are the people now claiming to be a separate Palestinian nation and they definitely have LESS of a right to claim any of those lands as much as the Jews have.
The legal validity of the 1919 mandate with which Britain was entrusted, to grant the Jews a national home in both banks of the Jordan River has NEVER been superseded, notwithstanding the British betrayal of this mandate when they unilaterally gave away the east bank to the Hashemites. Back then there was not even as much as discussion about "Palestinian" nation forming; to the extent the Arabs in Palestine had national aspirations, they only wanted to be politically united with SYRIA as they had been defining themselves as "Southern Syrians". Also, the aftermath of Israel's 1948-1949 independence war witnessed the Jordanian kingdom conquering what is known today as the "West Bank" and illegally annexing it - until these territories were taken by Israel following Jordanian aggression during the 1967 Six Day War. In the 17 odd years during which Jordan occupied Judea & Samaria, a.k.a the "West Bank", and the Egyptians occupied the Gaza strip, the local Arab residents never demanded a Palestinian state. It was only when Israel became in charge that these people began launching a struggle under the banner of "Palestinian" nationality.

I don't know which history books you've been reading, but the narrative in them is wrong, plain and simple.

Oh, some of the Jews you mentioned were MY ancestors. But I hope you realize our Jewishness has NO bearing on the issues at hand - a person must be committed to sticking to the truth regardless of his/her religious affiliation.

** To fresca: it's refreshing to read your healthy skepticism vis-a vis how exactly to carve out land to form an acceptably livable and peaceful Palestinian geographical entity. I'm afraid it cannot be done. The lesser of evils would be to establish a Palestinian state in Jordan. Heres why:
I can't fathom what's so sacrosanct about the continuity of the Hashemite regime in Jordan. If there would be guarantees that the "Palestinians" be peaceful neighborsto Israel and won't discriminate against the non-Palestinian Jordanian population, I'd see no problem with the notion of the Hashemites being convinced by the Arab League to share power with the Palestinians in Jordan in order to make it a full fledged Palestinian country. Jordan is also a very big country, especially in comparison to ALL the territory on the west bank of the Jordan river. And if the Palestinians get rid of all the people "compromised by terror" who currently form their leadership, (Palestinian) Jordan could be made one day an economically prosperous country given all the aid from the EU and the US that would flow bountifully to prop them up. Remember, more than 3/4 of the Jordanian populace are Palestinian as it is.

As for the Jewish settlements, I have a surprise for any serious observer who considers them illegal. ALL of them ARE legal (because of what I explained above), except several outposts. So I see no reason to dismantle them just to make some territories "Judenrein" (i.e. ethnically cleansed of Jews). Isn't it ironic that the Palestinians don't tolerate ANY presence of Jews in their midst yet are automatically trusted to live in their envisioned state in peace with their Israeli neighbors? Uprooting Jews from their homes in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (a.k.a the territories) is considered by most of the world a prerequisite for establishing peace, while many in the world overlook, and many others have forgotten that when Palestinians talk abut "occupied territories" they mean those "occupied" in 1948, not 1967. They've long been resorting to a tactic of telling the world they want the territories "occupied" in 1967, but still refer among themselves to the lands they lost in 1948. I believe what they tell each other in Arabic, not what they tell others in English.

Watch this webpage for 900 tons of anti-Semitic garbage to rain down on me from the likes of Omar...you think I'm exaggerating?! Just take a peek at another webpage where a PRO-PALESTINIAN ANTI-ISRAELI JEW posted an article (evidently as some sort of moronic provocation) and immediately got called "a kike": http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/05/42075.php (I Googled his name up and revealed his political leanings).

is nonsense.
(And if Israel was in violation of any security council resolutions, it was the Palestinians' fault.)

if sharon doesn't need yassin to sabotage the peace process you assmole still haven't explained why sharon doesn't target yassin for assassination.

reply convincingly or shut the fuck up asshole.

UN Security Council Resolutions on Israel since 1948
Res 101 (Nov 24, 53): Expressed 'strongest censure' of Israel for the first time because of its raid on Qibya.
Res 106 (Mar 29, 55): Condemned Israel for Ghazzah raid.
Res 111 (Jan 19, 56): Condemned Israel for raid on Syria that killed 56 people.
Res 127 (Jan 22, 58): Recommended Israel to suspend its no-man's zone in Jerusalem.
Res 162 (Apr 11, 61): Urged Israel to comply with UN decisions.
Res 171 (Apr 9, 62): Determined 'flagrant violation' by Israel in its attack on Syria.
Res 228 (Nov 25, 66): Censured Israel for its attack on Samu in Jordan.
Res 237 (June 14, 67): Urged Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.
Res 248 (Mar 24, 68): Condemned Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.
Res 250 (Apr 27, 68): Called on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.
Res 251 (May 2, 68): Deeply deplored Israel's military parade in Jerusalem and declared invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as its capital.
Res 256 (Aug 16, 68): Condemned Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation'.
Res 259 (Sep 27, 68): Deplored Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.
Res 262 (Dec 31, 68): Condemned Israel's attack on Beirut airport destroying the entire fleet of Middle East Airlines.
Res 265 (Apr 1, 69): Condemned Israel for air attacks on Salt in Jordan.
Res 267 (July 3, 69): Censured Israel for administrative acts to change status of Jerusalem.
Res 270 (Aug. 26, 69): Condemned Israel for air attack on villages in southern Lebanon.
Res 271 (Sep 15, 69): Condemned Israel's failure to comply with UN resolutions on Jerusalem.
Res 279 (May 12, 70): Demanded withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.
Res 280 (May 19, 70): Condemned Israeli attacks against Lebanon.
Res 285 (Sep 5, 70): Demanded immediate Israeli troop withdrawal from Lebanon.
Res 298 (Sep 25, 71): Deplored Israel's change of status of Jerusalem.
Res 313 (Aug 8, 72): Demanded Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.
Res 316 (June 26, 72): Condemned Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.
Res 317 (July 21, 72): Deplored Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted from Lebanon.
Res 332 (Apr 21, 73): Condemned Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.
Res 337 (Aug 15, 73): Condemned Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.
Res 347 (Apr 24, 74): Condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanon.
Res 425 (Mar 19, 78): Called on Israel to withdraw its forces unconditionally from Lebanon.
Res 427 (May 3, 78): Called on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Res 444 (Jan 19, 79): Deplored Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peace forces.
Res 446 (Mar 22, 79): Determined Israeli settlements as a 'serious obstruction' to peace, and called on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions.
Res 450 (June 14, 79): Called on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.
Res 452 (July 20, 79): Called on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.
Res 465 (Mar 1, 80): Deplored Israel's settlements and asked all member States not to assist Israel's settlement programme.
Res 467 (Apr 24, 80): Condemned Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.
Res 468 (May 8, 80): Called on Israel to rescind illegal expulsion of two Palestinian Mayors and a Judge, and to facilitate their return.
Res 469 (May 20, 80): Strongly deplored Israel's failure to observe the Council's order not to deport Palestinians.
Res 471 (June 5, 80): Expressed deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Res 476 (June 30, 80): Reiterated that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'.
Res 478 (Aug 20, 80): 'Censured in the strongest terms' Israel for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'basic law'.
Res 484 (Dec 19, 80): Declared it imperative Israel re-admit two Palestinian mayors.
Res 487 (June 19, 81): Strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.
Res 497 (Dec 17, 81): Decided Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demanded that Israel rescind its decision forthwith.
Res 498 (Dec 18, 81): Called on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.
Res 501 (Feb 25, 82): Called on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.
Res 508 (June 6, 82): Demanded Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and un-conditionally from Lebanon.
Res 515 (July 29, 82): Demanded Israel lift its seige of Beirut and allow in food.
Res 517 (Aug 4, 82): Censured Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demanded Isreal withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
Res 518 (Aug 12, 82): Demanded Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.
Res 520 (Sep 17, 82): Condemned Israel's attack into West Beirut.
Res 573 (Oct 4, 85): Condemned Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO Headquarters.
Res 587 (Sep 23, 86): Took note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urged all parties to withdraw.
Res 592 (Dec 8, 86): Strongly deplored the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.
Res 605 (Dec 22, 87): Strongly deplored Israel's policies and practices denying human rights of Palestinians.
Res 607 (Jan 5, 88): Called on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requested it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Res 608 (Jan 14, 88): Deeply regreted that Israel had defied the UN and deported Palestinian civilians.
Res 636 (July 6, 89): Deeply regreted the Israeli deportation of Palestinians.
Res 641 (Aug 30, 89): Deplored Israel's continuous deportation of Palestinians.
Res 672 (Oct 12, 90): Condemned Israel for violence against Palestinians at Jerusalem's Haram Al-Sharif.
Res 673 (Oct 24, 90): Deplored Israel's refusal to cooperate with the UN.
Res 681 (Dec 20, 90): Deplored Israel's resumption of deportation of Palestinians.
Res 694 (May 24, 91): Deplored Israel's deportation of Palestinians and called on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Res 726 (Jan 1, 92): 'Strongly condemned' Israel's decision to resume deportation of Palestinians from 'Palestinian territories... including Jerusalem.'
Res 799 (Dec 19, 92): Deplored Israel's mass deportation of some 400 Palestinians and called for thir immediate return.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

and thats only to 1992.........

Most of them, if not all, were orchestrated by the Soviet Union and/or the Arab League so as to deny Israel its rights of military and diplomatic self defense at best, or to bring it to the brink of inihalation by Arab states and terrorists, at worst.

Don't be surprised if the forseeable future witnesses a major overhaul of the UN by the US, as the former has been used lately to stick it to America; already back in the late 1950s/early 1960's the US ambassador to the UN threatened to bolt it and form some institution in its stead.

The end of the Cold War saw a brief period during which the UN was more somewhat more balanced in its approach toward Israel (because of the demise of the Warsaw Pact), only to abandon this attempt at being balanced.

Since its inception, Most of UN resolutions have nearly always discussed Israel and the "Palestinians". The Arabs have always excelled at hijacking the UN for their political befenit, because this organization rests on precarious foundations that constantly render it ripe for its hijacking by one political bloc or another; during most of its history that has been done by the Soviet bloc and the Arab league. The "non-aligned" bloc has always been manipulated by the Arabs.

the point being: sharon and the israeli right created hamas to sabotage peace and the plo.

and that's why sharon never targets yassin.

to which bushadmirer the assmole still refuses to reply.

I want the whole world to know (and you know who you are) that I have never been fucked so hard in the ass. You were incredible. I couldnt stop shouting "Palestine" with every thrust up my ass. I will never be the same again. Forget Israel. Viva le Palestine.

and relax...your friends in the white coats are coming for ya.

The laundry list of UN resolution above are either UN General Assembly resolutions or Chapter VI Security Council resolutions. These resolutions mandate negotiations to resolve.

Chapter VII resolutions (of which none of the above are included) are the resolutions like 1441. These resolutions are self-enforcing, requiring the offending country alone to comply with their terms. The UN recognized, under Article 42 of the UN Charter, the need for special military measures to be taken if a Chapter VII resolution is ignored by an aggressor. Hence the war a few months ago.

...Israel is recognized by the United Nations.

All ARab countries, with the exceptions of Jordan and Egypt, do not recognize Israel as a nation.

Seems to me there's something wrong about member nations not recognizing other member nations.

Of course, Israel-hating is all the rage at the UN these days. Hardly a week goes by they don't pass a resolution condemning Israel for breathing, while ignoring atrocities elsewhere in the world.

For anybody reading this let me explain that I have realised that I have been incorrect in using the word Jew when talking about the people who carry out the attrocities in Israel. I will use the word Zionist now to describe them as that is more correct.

Jewboy I am a little busy right now and a little tired but I will read ur articles and get back to you with a fitting reply soon enough. I just happened to read the last paragraph in one of ur "writings" above, with my name in it, but am not bothered to read all of it right now.

wait for it

*** In reply to "back to the point" Monday June 16, 2003 09:08 AM bit:

As for the tripe of equating Sharon=Hamas, where that poster proceeded to argue that Sharon and the Right, in their quest to sabotage "peace and the PLO", etc., well... this is, to put it mildly, a gross inaccuracy.
It's true the Likud (the major Israeli right wing party to which Sharon belongs) nurtured the then nascent Islamic MOVEMENT in Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip, a.k.a the "occupied territories" - a movement that later formed Hamas, in an attempt to sabotage the PLO, which was THE obstacle to the peace process at the time, in order to FURTHER THE PROSPECTS OF PEACE. The Likud was naive to think they could find an ally for peace's sake in the Islamic movement and their efforts were in vain, of course.
The reason Sharon never seems to target Yasin is that Israel fears the world public opinion PR ramifications of assassinating a leader considered "spiritual" - the international community has come to make a rigid distinction between strictly "military" leaders and strictly "spiritual" leaders, even if this distinction doesn't always bear scrutiny in actuality, and as if the latter can never pose security threats by their incitement, poisonous propaganda, etc.
Every other "cloack and dagger" theory in this bag is pure speculation (read: BS) on the part of those uttering it.

***In response to Omar:

You're fooling no one except perhaps yourself. You know, or are supposed to know by now, that Zionism is the JEWISH national liberation movement. The fact Dio is an anti-Zionist or non-Zionist Jew doesn't entitle you to wave a magic wand and create a new "Zionist" creed. And you've learned NOTHING because you don't want to.

"Atrocities"?? Maybe you feel guilty for all the atrocities perpetuated by your "Palestinian" and other Arab brethren against Israeli AND other Jews, and are projecting them on most of the Israeli Jews (namely everyone except the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox and the most extreme left wing).

Granted, the Israeli Jews have made and are still making some mistakes vis-a-vis its Arab citizens as well as the "Palestinians" in the "occupied territories" (and yes, a few random ISOLATED atrocities in the disputed territories a.k.a "occupied territories", which are NOT a matter of official OR unofficial policy and are condemned immediately thereafter almost IN UNISON), and Israel must correct them. But the onus is now on the Palestinians and the neighboring Arab countries to win the Jews' trust and prove they're worthy of being given any land, if parts of the "occupied territories" are considered for this end.

I suggest you keep being busy with something else and spare us your vagaries and obscenities that are your "holy texts". You had done more than your fair share of plunging the debate into an asinine match of obscene anal rhetoric. If you can't bring yourself to accept historical FACTS - and I've left out some others unfavorable to Arabs and "Palestinians" - then you're called upon to never return.

I certainly won't hold my breath.

We need to enforce the UN security resolutions because they are too weak to uphold them.
USE THIS when you need a war for oil in Iraq.

The UN is useless and shouldnt be supported at all and needs to be revamped.
USE THIS to protect your friends in Israel.

Another interesting point...
FOR CELEBRITY WORDPLAY


...Israel's (claim to Palestinan land) is (not) recognized by the United Nations.

All UN countries, with the exceptions of USA and Israel, do not recognize (Jerusalem) as Israel's national capital.

Seems to me there's something wrong about member nations not recognizing other member nations.

Of course, Iraq-hating was all the rage at the UN back in the day. Hardly a week goes by they don't pass a resolution condemning Iraq for breathing, while ignoring atrocities elsewhere in the world.

THAT WAS A HOOT

3200fps wrote, quote:

>>USE THIS when you need a war for oil in Iraq.

Well 3200fps, Israel needs no war for Iraqi oil. That's another unfounded theory that has been floated around. Israel had never pushed the US to launch any military campaign against Iraq in order to gain access to Iraqi oil or for other purposes, for that matter.

Regarding your assertion about the UN, I'm glad to see you concur.


"for daveman and the jewboy" wrote, quote:

>>...Israel's (claim to Palestinan land) is (not) recognized by the United Nations.

I don't give TWO hoots about that. And you have it backwards: the "Palestinians" are the ones claiming land that was originally Jewish before they either stole it or illegally settled there during the illegal Jordanian and Egyptian occupation from 1949-1967 - there had been a few Jewish settlements in the "occupied territories" before Arabs destroyed them or and/or drove out their residents during the 1948 war, such as (original) Kfar 'Aza and Kfar Darom.

>>All UN countries, with the exceptions of USA and Israel, do not recognize (Jerusalem) as Israel's national capital

That doesn't make Israel less deserving of having Jerusalem as its capital.

>>Seems to me there's something wrong about member nations not recognizing other member nations.

I couldn't agree more. It's high time Israel gets treated fairly in the UN. Down with all UN anti-Israel discrimination.

Which wordplay are you taking about?

Your wordplay is lame. Your show will not be picked up for another season. In other words, "You ARE the weakest link...goodbye!"

The UN needs to be revamped? Undoubtedly. However, they need to revamp it somewhere else. The US out of the UN, and the UN out of New York!

"Jewboy": Don't confuse Omar et. al. with the facts. They don't handle them very well, and they refuse to admit their veracity anyway. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge the carefully crafted veil of lies they've built is just that.

Long live Israel!

I wholly agree!

Amen Ve'amen Sela!!!
(An extended form of saying "amen" found in the Book of Psalms.)

1- while the likud as you admit was sponsoring hamas,the plo had struck peace at camp david - it's to sabotage this peace that hamas was created by the israeli right.

2-sharon doesnt give a fuck about pr issues,as proven by his constant assassinating innocent women and children.

3-the fact that he doesnt target yassin because he needs an enemy not because he's spiritual is further proven by sharon letting hamas political leader rantisi escape unhurt from the alleged,faked attempt on his life - it was the sionists of the iht who reported that 2 warning shots were fired at rantisi and 30/40 seconds were given to him to leave the car and flee to safety before the slaughter of the innocent started.

sharon is the worst enemy and murderer not only of arabs,but also of jews - via his hamas pals.

Yet I'd like to inform the uninformed open minded by refuting this poltroon's lies:

1> The Likud stopped funding Hamas long before the Oslo Accords (of 1993) were even negotiated.

2> All the women and children who get hit during military retaliations against "Palestinian" terrorists are never targeted. The injuries and deaths of the former are unfortunate colatteral damage. This problem is exacerbated by 2 variables: A) the "Palestinian" areas are very densely populated, B) All the terrorist organizations do their utmost, in an ongoing fashion, to use the non-combatant population as live shields.

3> If the nitwit maintains Sharon doesn't concern himself with PR, he's entitled to his opinion. This won't change the facts.

4> The nitwit's narrative about what happened to Rantisi hardly even registers as a fairy tale. The true narrative goes like this:
the ammo fired at Rantisi's vehicle was poorly aimed and it ended up killing other folks while only wounding Rantisi. The choppers' pilots didn't see the man fleeing the vehicle was Rantisi, otherwise they would have finished him off.

Btw, this is not the first incident of this kind - there were others in the past. At other instances the ammo used was too light, so as to try avoid harming non-combatants, only to prove ineffective as the target escaped wounded or unharmed. Many people around the planet are unaware of all the pains Israel takes to avoid killing non-terrorists.

I'm "Jewboy." Very clever, don't you think?

I wasn't aware. I employed the first alias I could think of. Let me stay with it. :-)

Also, the various Israeli intelligence apparatuses made a mistake: the fact other people besides Rantisi were in the vehicle eluded them.

Dear Zionist little boy,
let me start by saying it makes no difference to me what U think or what U think I should do. Just to let you know I do have a life outside indymedia. As for ur self righteous crap and tons of information.... none of which quotes any sources..... thats what gives it credibility see, the only one ur fooling is U. But then since ur ancestors have been around for so long and so many bad things have happened to them and your from the chosen people, we should just take ur word for it and let u do just as u fucking please.... tch tch tch.. poor U.

Yeah Right!!!

Quite frankly a lot of U people are on drugs if U think that governments do not fund people who might be "evil" but will help them in weakening or destroying a bigger threat. The US did it with Saddam Hussain in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Bush administration can lie about everythihng from election results to Enron but when it comes to foreign policy they will take the decision that is right for the people of the world. Believe that ull believe anything.

now for some of the gems u placed

You know, or are supposed to know by now, that Zionism is the JEWISH national liberation movement. Read this website jewboy

http://www.netureikartauk.org/neuberger.html

2. "Atrocities"?? Maybe you feel guilty for all the atrocities perpetuated by your "Palestinian" and other Arab brethren against Israeli AND other Jews, and are projecting them on most of the Israeli Jews (namely everyone except the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox and the most extreme left wing).

oh how I feel your pain. Yes everything is the palestinians fault. everything from the shuttle disaster to Al Gore losing the election is their fault. The Israelis have tanks and M16s while the palestinians have stones. Oh the poor poor israelis, oh how my heart should bleed for these murderers. what have they ever done to deserve all of this... gee I dont know maybe killed people, demolished homes, tortured people. Motherfucker why is it that when u kill arabs it is ok as collateral damage but when they take u out it is suicide bombing. Whats food for the goose is food for the gander. Oh but your jewish so u must be special. You shyould be allowed to kill and maim and displace without retaliation CUZ THIS WAS THE LAND OF UR ANCESTORS THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. How could I not see the reasoning.

Do u know how fucking stupid this argument is that this land belonged to your people a few thousand years ago thats why u have the exclusinve right to it. By any rule of law it is proposterous an d U expect me and any other person with hald a brain cell to buy that argument

3. Granted, the Israeli Jews have made and are still making some mistakes vis-a-vis its Arab citizens as well as the "Palestinians" in the "occupied territories" (and yes, a few random ISOLATED atrocities in the disputed territories a.k.a "occupied territories", which are NOT a matter of official OR unofficial policy and are condemned immediately thereafter almost IN UNISON), and Israel must correct them. But the onus is now on the Palestinians and the neighboring Arab countries to win the Jews' trust and prove they're worthy of being given any land, if parts of the "occupied territories" are considered for this end

So U do agree that attrocities are taking place. I guess the only disagreement we have then is on the number of attrocities and the manner. Try these for size

www.halturnershow.com/israeliatrocities.html

Finally

Seems to me there's something wrong about member nations not recognizing other member nations

There have been many instances when countries have been evicted from the UN or suffered sanction. The case of South Africa with Apartheid was one of them. See Jewboy U dont seem to be that clever. When member states commit attrocities the UN is supposed to take action. Did it occur to you that the US (because of the influence of its Jewish population) and Israel are like the soldier who wrote home saying the whole company was out of step except for him.

ITS ABOUT TIME THERE WAS A PALESTINIAN STATE. Any Jew would be a fucking idiot to not realise that and im quoting Thomas Friedman when I say this that Israel won the war in six days and has been in the seventh day since. any fool can see that the tactics are not working.

>> The Likud stopped funding Hamas long before the Oslo Accords (of 1993) were even negotiated. <<

please provide verifiable sourcing/evidence/linx for your dogmatic assertion or else shut the fuck up.

moreover,it was to sabotage camp david not oslo that hamas was created asshole.

by the oslo time,hamas was up and running and ready to sabotage oslo and whatever future peace.

sharon kills the innocent which proves he's not concerned with pr. either provide counterarguments or else shut the fuck up.

that the first 2 shots were poorly aimed is a figment of your imagination. it was the sionists of the iht who reported that after the first 2 shots 30 to 40 seconds were given to rantisi (so he could flee I add since there's no other reasonable explanation).

you are an asshole jewboy.

couldn't the cia afford a better spammer?

obviously not.

I havent forgotten about you girl... I still think your a crack whore ;)

could it be that our "jewboy" assmole cannot reply?

SHARON=HAMAS!

Susie devoid of any intelligence,
im not gay so cock sucking is an art that I am sure your more practiced at than me ;) right you slut. Freedom of Speech is guaranteed by the constitution of the United States bitch. If U dont like what u read here go join ur mum. Like I said ill be there soon enough.... but ill only bone her. You I wouldnt touch but u can watch and take pointers

Is Israel Blackmailing America?: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/blackmail.html

>>As for ur self righteous crap and tons of information.... none of which quotes any sources.....thats what gives it credibility see,

Correct information can always stand by itself, it doesn't need any quotations to support it. You somehow think that if you dazzle us with multiple sources and/or quotations your credibility will be bolstered. HA!! You've enclosed some interesting links, discussing them will be interesting.

>>the only one ur fooling is U.

Not by a long shot, judging from the postings I've seen since I joined this thread. Try being a bit more original.

>>But then since ur ancestors have been around for so long and so many bad things have happened to them and your from the chosen people, we should just take ur word for it and let u do just as u fucking please.... tch tch tch.. poor U. Yeah Right!!!

Again, try being more original. You're chewing on the same tired self denial tactics.

>>Quite frankly a lot of U people are on drugs if U think that governments do not fund people who might be "evil" but will help them in weakening or destroying a bigger threat. The US did it with Saddam Hussain in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Bush administration can lie about everythihng from election results to Enron but when it comes to foreign policy they will take the decision that is right for the people of the world. Believe that ull believe anything.

Maybe you don't give a damn about how oppressed the Iraqi people and the Afghanis were under Saddam Insane and the Taliban, respectively. Their forceful removal was the only way of bettering these peoples' lots.

>>Read this website jewboy http://www.netureikartauk.org/neuberger.html

Oaaaah. Now the heat is on, baby...sweetie-pie, believe it or not, while I was typing the paragraph containing your name I was thinking of the Neturei Karta website, which, incidentally, I had read from a few weeks before...and I had a hunch somewhere in the back of my mind that you'd try this ruse. You "forgot" to mention a few crucial points:
(A) Neturei Karta has long been in bed with the "Palestinians" because the former have been going to (almost) every possible length to oppose Zionism and Israel. For this reason (and possibly also others) they are ostracized by virtually all the Jews - even all the anti-Zionist ulta-Orthodox - with the possible exception of the Satmar Hassidim.
(B) Neturei Karta have "bent" the truth about Judaism on any point where anything in it (as it had before the advent of religious Zionism in the late 19th century) could refute the "Palestinian" cause. They've been lying, distorting, telling half-truths...you name it. They've been doing so, because they try utilizing every trick in the book to help bolster the "Palestinian" cause AS A MEANS of negating Zionism and Israel; yet their assistance of "Palestinians" is NOT an end in and of itself, no matter what they'd tell you or what you think. (C) They have been attending all the demonstrations whose theme or sub-theme is anti-Israeli, no matter who their co-demonstrators are or how ANTI-JEWISH they might be. So they've been compromising Jewish values that aren't necessarily Zionism related. They don't mind this, and that's why they're so wacky and ostracized by all other religious Jews.

>>Yes everything is the palestinians fault. everything from the shuttle disaster to Al Gore losing the election is their fault. The Israelis have tanks and M16s while the palestinians have stones. Oh the poor poor israelis, oh how my heart should bleed for these murderers. what have they ever done to deserve all of this...

You should keep your tired old false myths, lies, melodrama and excessive cynicism to yourself. I'm not conned by this crap, nor are many others.

>>gee I dont know maybe killed people, demolished homes, tortured people.

Go to past postings by fresca and/or daveman and/or bushadmirer to reread why exactly, and try to stop whining while you're at it.

>>Motherfucker why is it that when u kill arabs it is ok as collateral damage but when they take u out it is suicide bombing. Whats food for the goose is food for the gander.

Go back to nursery school. Oh, did you penn the "Motherfucker" song for Prince a.k.a "the Artist"?

>>You shyould be allowed to kill and maim and displace without retaliation CUZ THIS WAS THE LAND OF UR ANCESTORS THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. How could I not see the reasoning.

"Your highness", I should be your student!! You put every historian to shame!!!

>>Do u know how fucking stupid this argument is that this land belonged to your people a few thousand years ago thats why u have the exclusinve right to it.

You're disinformation is too transparent and you have it almost reversed (because Jews have had rights to the land for millennia, i.e. for the interim). YOU and your ilk (80% of ALL the Arabs) have always considered all of it exclusive "Palestinian" patrimony and are startled at realizing an ever growing portion of public opinion is becoming aware of this, whereas many people know that most of the Jews have been willing to compromise over it. This compromise almost materialized, but your faggot fat leader Arafat blew it up.

>>By any rule of law it is proposterous an d U expect me and any other person with hald a brain cell to buy that argument

I haven't been trying to convince you of, and I don't expect you and your ilk to buy, shit. As far as international law is concerned, Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip have been disputed territories as of June 1967 notwithstanding your semantic acrobatics. I'm stating these facts to the benefit of fair people unlike yourself and your "entourage", i.e. people with at least a 1/4 of a brain cell.

>>So U do agree that attrocities are taking place. I guess the only disagreement we have then is on the number of attrocities and the manner. Try these for size http://www.halturnershow.com/israeliatrocities.html

You're right for a change. The number of atrocities is much smaller and their manner is much more benign than you'd have me and others believe. Conversely, let's check what your brothers have done: I think one example of the savagery of your beloved "Palestinian" brethren will suffice. Here it is: http://212.150.177.135/lynch/linch0.html (click the "CLICK HERE FOR MORE PICTURES OF THE LYNCH (difficult to see) link, then click on each picture to enlarge it!). Make no mistake, there are many other websites, from various non-Israeli or non-Jewish sources who exhibit these and worst photos, where you can see 2 Arabs holding their internal organs aloft!!!

>>See Jewboy U dont seem to be that clever. When member states commit attrocities the UN is supposed to take action. Did it occur to you that the US (because of the influence of its Jewish population) and Israel are like the soldier who wrote home saying the whole company was out of step except for him.

I suppose you think your anal rhetoric makes you clever, you chucklehead. You're giving me a school-grade lecture on how the UN operates, huh? Continue to blow air.

>>ITS ABOUT TIME THERE WAS A PALESTINIAN STATE. Any Jew would be a fucking idiot to not realise that...

That could have already materialized, fuckwit. Problem is, too many in your camp do NOT want it, as can be ascertained from their musings and conduct alike.

>>and im quoting Thomas Friedman when I say this that Israel won the war in six days and has been in the seventh day since. any fool can see that the tactics are not working.

You can shove your quotation book up your ass. Ha, another worthless pearl of wisdom from a pro-Palestinian "journalist" (i.e. occasional American policy "doctor" and setter as well) who masquerades as a pro-Israeli Jew. But then I know where he's coming from (pun intended), he's been working in one of the most unreliable international and American newspapers for a l-o-n-g time.

- "jewboy" the whore still refusing to address 8:57 am:
could it be that he can't?

-the taliban and saddam were created by the us under reagan you asshole.

now go give bush another blowjob.and get aids.

"the taliban and saddam were created by the us under reagan you asshole."

No the US did not create these movements; you are deluding yourself to maintain your anti-american agenda. However, the thing I don't understand, if you were so against this "us policy" why are you so against changing it?

It is easier to hate, than to understand.

you still refusing to address 8:57 am,jewboy with another nick.
to maintain tha talibam and saddam were not cia operations is to ignore mainstream history.

this policy has NOT been reversed:

osama,omar,saddam are clearly still being protected by bush who refuses to capture or kill em.

just like sharon wont get his creature yassin.

There are good commentaries on Israel, Jews and "Palestinians" by an Arab named Joseph Farah, an impartial observer who's already received loads of hate mail and death threats from his fellow Arabs because he has dared to expose the Palestinian "cause" for the hoax it is. It's on http://wnd.com/, but I don't expect hefty loonies like Omar, "Cloack and dagger", "Jewboy is an asshole" and the rest of that clique to read Farah's commentaries on the topic. It would be too painful for them; they might get a nervous breakdown (or perhaps stick their heads out of their anus to gorge accusations in the way of Farah being paid by the Zionists to author these commentaries...)

And...

***" jewboy the asshole wrote", quote:

>>please provide verifiable sourcing/evidence/linx for your dogmatic assertion or else shut the fuck up.

See what I told your Pal (pun intended) Omar on this.

>>moreover,it was to sabotage camp david not oslo that hamas was created asshole.
>>sharon kills the innocent which proves he's not concerned with pr. either provide counterarguments or else shut the fuck up.

Here's one: shove your head back up your ass and leave it there.

>>by the oslo time,hamas was up and running and ready to sabotage oslo and whatever future peace.

Geez, I'm overwhelmed by awe, how did you manage to state this correct fact???!!!

>>...(so he could flee I add since there's no other reasonable explanation).

There's no reasoning with someone of your preoccupation (no pun intended).

>>couldn't the cia afford a better spammer?

Oops... today I forgot to take home the bi-monthly check from the CIA. it's awaiting me in my mailbox.

***"jewboy the asshole" wrote, quote:

>>could it be that our "jewboy" assmole cannot reply? SHARON=HAMAS!

"jewboy the asshole" poltroon = HAMAS

***"JEWBOY the whore" wrote, quote:

>>now go give bush another blowjob.and get aids.

On one condition...that you suck your own mother's pussy and tits, and then fuck her for real.

***One last thing to the Omar clique: see you tomorrow, now I must go do other things. I have a life too, not only Omar the "luminary" has one.

"osama,omar,saddam are clearly still being protected by bush who refuses to capture or kill em"

Why?
Can you even come up with anything other than say a personal attack.

"just like sharon wont get his creature yassin"

Yep, the EU is protecting this Egypt terrorist, and Israel won't act unless they get a green light from the US.

do you have counterarguments or just backfiring insults or jus articles of faith like "the eu is protecting yassin" - whom sharon could kill any time but refuses to so the cycle of violence can go on for ever just like bush refuses to get osama?

a

a

when the bushiite spammers run out of pseudoarguments,they typically start posting crap like the 2 photos above - backfiring dementia praecox.

the issue here is:

sharon and the likud created hamas to sabotage all peace accords,as shown by thwe fact that sharon never targets hamas leader yassin for assassination - just like bush won't get osama.

the original post shows this aptly.

When the prophet of Islam started preaching his new religion in Mecca, he was conciliatory to Christians and Jews. He told them, "We believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you, our God is the same as your God. "Surah 29:45. This attitude changed completely after he gained strength. Allah then tells him to
"Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior." Surah 9:29.

Regarding Christians and Jews, it seems that Mohammed hated the Jews more. During his lifetime, Mohammed devoted much of his efforts to get rid of the Jews: "You (Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His apostle, and I want to expel from this land ( the Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it". Mohammed was quoted.

At that time there were in Medina three Jewish tribes. Two of them, the Qaynqa and the Bani-al-Nudair tribes, were besieged by Mohammed’s men, blocking their access to food supplies, until they surrendered on Mohammed’s terms, which were that their lives would be spared, that they must emigrate from Medina, and that they must deposit all their belongings at a certain place for distribution among Muslims.

The third tribe, Bani Quayza, was not as lucky. After the war of the trench, in which Mohammed was besieged by the Qurayshites led, by Abu Sofyan, it was alleged that Bani Qurayza agreed to provide help from within to Abu Sofyan’s forces. Although the alleged help did not materialize and the siege eventually ended, nevertheless, Mohammed never forgave them for their willingness to help his enemies.

Muslims turned against Bani Qurayza and blocked their streets for twenty five days.

The Jewish tribe expressed readiness to accept the surrender terms which had been conceded to the other two Jewish tribes, namely cession of their belongings and departure with safe conduct.

Mohammed, however, would not consent to this, and instead appointed as an arbiter Saad iben Moaz, a man who was known to be on bad terms with Bani Qurayza. Saad ruled that all Bani Qurayza’s men should be beheaded, that the women and children should be sold as slaves, and that all their property should be divided among the Muslims.

Trenches were dug in the bazaar of Medina for disposal of the nine hundred Jewish bodies whom Mohammed had spent the night slaughtering. (See Ibn Hisham: The Prophet’s Biography: vol 2 pages 40&41.)

Wow, just how poorly uneducated and evil do you have to be to believe that "God" would have talked to this intensely evil man... Say what you want, but I don't remember hearing about Jesus or Buddha killing the male population of an entire village then selling the women and children into slavery. Wonderful muhammad, what a sick joke.

To think these stupid muslims name their children after this asshole, pathetic.

Ha'aretz reports that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, has broken off "cease-fire" talks with Hamas. "Palestinian sources said the Abbas-Hamas meeting was canceled because the prime minister wants to reach an understanding on a cease-fire with his own Fatah faction before trying to do the same with Hamas leaders. He met with Fatah leaders in Gaza for two hours last night for this purpose, but did not achieve any concrete results."

Can this guy really pacify his population if he can't even reach a ceasefire with himself?

I dont think that any one race or religion has a "birth right" to Jerusalem, Israel or the Middle East in general.

Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital.
The region was successively ruled by the
Hebrews [Jews],
Assyrians,
Babylonians,
Persians,
Greeks,
Maccabeans,
Romans,
Byzantines,
Arabs,
Egyptians,
the Crusaders,
Mamelukes,
the Turks -- 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I)
and then once again by the Jews in 1948.

"I dont think that any one race or religion has a "birth right" to Jerusalem, Israel or the Middle East in general."

I understand where your coming from, but point out that the Jews still do need a homeland.

But if we examine the other side, would the Islamic world really crumble if "heaven forbid" they lost Jerusalem. Of course not, yet Arabs complain
By their very reasoning the Germans have every right to attack the poles, because they lost land. Instead of say getting over it, and moving on> Oops, can’t else that of a Muslim, guess that makes me the "great Satan" (what year are these people living in.

The problem is Islam itself. It has always been very assertive in its very own nature. So when Islamic society is confront by a more powerful one, it sort of just bangs its head into the wall and the cries about it. Most Arab nations are only hanging on to the illusion of self-sufficiency because of their oil revenues. When the oil age ends, they will hit the floor pretty damn hard.

"I wasn't aware. I employed the first alias I could think of. Let me stay with it. :-)"

It's all yours. I'm honored to be confused with you.

Beyond the inanity of the original post and it's desperate attempt to actually lay the blame and responsibility for the actions of the subhumans of hamas, et.al. this thread illustrates something very well.
Those who are obsessed with simply hating Israel (to the point that they actually fantasize that Israel is somehow attacking itself!) do so by hiding behind the incredibly transparent ruse of caring deeply about the plight of the poor oppressed "palestinians".

As has been pointed out a million times over on this board and others like it, the "left" seems to have actually no regard for ANYONE who isn't in some way at odds with Israel or the US. No one cares about the congo. No one cares about Indonesia. No one cares about the plight of arabs in Syria (the parking lot that was Hama). No one cares about araslavery in Sudan. No one cares about the murders of gays in Saudi Arabia.

The only concern is about a group of people who are in a struggle with Israel.

Why is that? Why such a narrow range of compassion and concern from a group that likes to wear their bleeding hearts on their sleeve? Could it be that, simply put, the typical "leftist" simply doesn't like Israel purely because Israel has prospered in a land where other groups have and are floundering? Or, maybe if Sharon wasn't so damn white he'd be harder to condemn.

I think that's it. Israel is an extention of the US, so the theory goes, and since we are simply puppets of RICH WHITE GUYS then Israel must be selfish racist bastards as well.

That and, some of you are simply Jew haters.

I don't know what the reason is, but one thing is for certain. The "palestinians" should be damn glad their "oppressors" are "WHITE" and Jewish, otherwise no one around here would have ever heard of them.

"Correct information can always stand by itself, it doesn't need any quotations to support it"

DID THIS FOOL REALLY WRITE THIS ON A DISCUSSION FORUM. Whats the color of the sky in your world Oh most wisest Jew that ever lived? I think you believe your some sort of expert.. Dont tell me your asking me to take your word for anything Jewbag. Even you cant be that stupid;.

"Not by a long shot, judging from the postings I've seen since I joined this thread. Try being a bit more original"

By a long shot indeed.

"Again, try being more original. You're chewing on the same tired self denial tactics"

you mean original like you? yep I ve read a lot of stuff in your listings that is really original. Your a disgrace to all big nosed people. Try looking at your listings jewbag before asking others to be more original. When a discussion takes place it is the TRUTH that matters not originality. See thats where ur fucking up but then your jewish. What does the truth have to do with you. Nobody has ever accused a jew f being a liar, or a thief or a cheat or penny pinching.........

"Maybe you don't give a damn about how oppressed the Iraqi people and the Afghanis were under Saddam Insane and the Taliban, respectively. Their forceful removal was the only way of bettering these peoples' lots"

THIS ONE HAS TO BE MY FAVORITE. This motherfuckers a liar and a hypocrite. wow from everything that Jewbag has written so far it is so painfully clear he feels so much for all Arabs and muslims. im sure you must be heartbroken. Read the next excerpt for confirmation of his love for muslims.

"You're disinformation is too transparent and you have it almost reversed (because Jews have had rights to the land for millennia, i.e. for the interim). YOU and your ilk (80% of ALL the Arabs) have always considered all of it exclusive "Palestinian" patrimony and are startled at realizing an ever growing portion of public opinion is becoming aware of this, whereas many people know that most of the Jews have been willing to compromise over it. This compromise almost materialized, but your faggot fat leader Arafat blew it up. "

My disinformation is too aparent? This motherfucker craxks me up. The next time you find something incorrect try attaching a link to some place where we can see your version of the truth a.k.a another lie.. Oh my bad the truth stands up for itself and doesnt need any "quotations" to support it. Which public is he talking about. This fools on crack. Hes making sweeping statements and doesnt have shit to show for it. HEY CRACKHEAD did U carry out these surveys yourself, where your talking of the public "knowing or becoming aware"

"Oaaaah. Now the heat is on, baby...sweetie-pie, believe it or not, while I was typing the paragraph containing your name I was thinking of the Neturei Karta website, which, incidentally, I had read from a few weeks before...and I had a hunch somewhere in the back of my mind that you'd try this ruse. You "forgot" to mention a few crucial points:
(A) Neturei Karta has long been in bed with the "Palestinians" because the former have been going to (almost) every possible length to oppose Zionism and Israel. For this reason (and possibly also others) they are ostracized by virtually all the Jews - even all the anti-Zionist ulta-Orthodox - with the possible exception of the Satmar Hassidim.
(B) Neturei Karta have "bent" the truth about Judaism on any point where anything in it (as it had before the advent of religious Zionism in the late 19th century) could refute the "Palestinian" cause. They've been lying, distorting, telling half-truths...you name it. They've been doing so, because they try utilizing every trick in the book to help bolster the "Palestinian" cause AS A MEANS of negating Zionism and Israel; yet their assistance of "Palestinians" is NOT an end in and of itself, no matter what they'd tell you or what you think. (C) They have been attending all the demonstrations whose theme or sub-theme is anti-Israeli, no matter who their co-demonstrators are or how ANTI-JEWISH they might be. So they've been compromising Jewish values that aren't necessarily Zionism related. They don't mind this, and that's why they're so wacky and ostracized by all other religious Jews. "

:D the POT calling the kettle black. Theyve been lying and cheathing and decieving.... I can see where poor you is being treated so badly. Once again you read the article. Why dont you counter their claims? its because you cant can U?


"You should keep your tired old false myths, lies, melodrama and excessive cynicism to yourself. I'm not conned by this crap, nor are many others"

listen man sounds to me like your getting desperate ;) dont get other people involved. This discussion is between me and you. Your not a mind reader so dont speak for other people. Come on baby lets talk. Oh yeah and everything i am saying is sooooo incorrect and everything your saying must be the truth cuz I dont know.... ur the chosen one or people or whatever. Did anyone see Kung POW?

"Go to past postings by fresca and/or daveman and/or bushadmirer to reread why exactly, and try to stop whining while you're at it. "

Oh my God. Just the people whose opinion I cared for. Hell if Fresca agrees with you then and shes just as big of a crack Whore then your really on a role with your arguments. Hey Crack Head I dont agree with what their saying either. why dont you go back and try reading what I have written in response to their posts... Get the fuck out of here U moron. Your just a dumb fuck with a lot of time on his hands. You might have some facts but no skills at putting them across. With a nose as big as yours u need to be twice or three times as careful as the normal crackhead cuz with each sniff you probably take in 9 times as much SNORTER.

"Go back to nursery school. Oh, did you penn the "Motherfucker" song for Prince a.k.a "the Artist"? "

No the word just pops in my head whenever I read ur crap. No I didnt pen the song for prince but I am writng a song called Jewbags should be taxed cuz of their noses

""Your highness", I should be your student!! You put every historian to shame!!! "

I dont know about every historian but Ill be happy with you being ashamed. Then again you need dignity and self respect to feel shame and I doubt you have any of those virtues.

I haven't been trying to convince you of, and I don't expect you and your ilk to buy, shit. As far as international law is concerned, Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip have been disputed territories as of June 1967 notwithstanding your semantic acrobatics. I'm stating these facts to the benefit of fair people unlike yourself and your "entourage", i.e. people with at least a 1/4 of a brain cell.

1/4 of a brain cell?? yeah i can see your point about being original. Answer this for me clever boy? what were these territories before the first world war, after and before 1948? Just answer the question. Dont give me an explanation. just answer the question. My kind :D any piece of original writing. Whats your kind? fair minded people?? Do u really want fair minded people to know the truth Jewbag. You and your "kind" will look really bad if that happens :P

"I suppose you think your anal rhetoric makes you clever, you chucklehead. You're giving me a school-grade lecture on how the UN operates, huh? Continue to blow air."

Obviously your not coming across as very clever otherwise I would not have needed to explain the UN to you. chucklehead??? U fucking sausage jockey, you actually use that word

"You can shove your quotation book up your ass. Ha, another worthless pearl of wisdom from a pro-Palestinian "journalist" (i.e. occasional American policy "doctor" and setter as well) who masquerades as a pro-Israeli Jew. But then I know where he's coming from (pun intended), he's been working in one of the most unreliable international and American newspapers for a l-o-n-g time. "

Man this man has no links, no arguments, talks like hes an expert (riiiight) doesnt offer proof for his arguments and is now discrediting Thomas Friedman and the New York Times. Way to go Jewbag. We need more self righteous clowns like you in this world. Get your head out of the fucking ozone layer. Usually when people come up with stuff that they cant prove or site sources for it is known as fiction Jewbag. Walt Disney should have HAD YOUR imagination.

Omar,

Get over it, so the Arabs haven't won a war in over 300 years. We won't hold that against you. But your efforts are self-defeating. No Jihad will ever succeed unless you are willing to strive for the progress that will advance the Muslim world to the point where it can be competitive with the west. The simply reality is this; we could conquer the Middle East if we wanted too. Your armies are a pitiful sight, more over; your Islamic army staffs still use outdated Russian tactics. It's like shooting fish in a bucket.

"A Native American, an Arab and a cowboy, were sitting at bar, the native says my people were once many, and now are few. The Arab says my people were once few, but now are many. The cowboy says that’s because we haven't played cowboys and Arabs yet!"

"what were these territories before the first world war, after and before 1948? Just answer the question. "

Ottoman empire....of course the Jews bought alot of the land so.....

Still waiting for a response to my earlier pot. Or maybe you've conveniently forgotten that.

You cant even spell you fucking Jew killer.

the Japanese bought a lot of the land in the US in the 1980s, you dont see them claiming that this country is a colony of theirs do U. Buying a corner plot doesnt give U sovereignity over that land. Give me time Fresca I know you fighting for my attention but I can deal with only one scum at a time and Jewbag is the biggest scum so im dealing with him first. I havent forgotten about you ;)

Im Pakistani

Regarding the "Hamas MOHAMMED: AN EXAMPLE of ISLAM’ FOUNDER AND HIS TERRORISTIC MASS MURDERS" message:
Kudos to you for the great history lesson! You have brilliantly placed under ridiculous light the ludicrous Arab/Islamic notion of considering the Jews "cousins".

Two thumps up!

Ffutal, let me thank you for enclosing that info. I won't bet on Omar reading it, much less giving a damn about it though. Incidentally, you've made a good choice by gleainng the story from Israel's LEFT-wing paper, which is actually an organ of the extreme left-wing party Meretz. So you didn't use a right wing source.

Excellent!

Sy$teMF, I know you ment well, but you left out some details:
1> The Maccabeans were JEWS.

2> In 1000 BCE King David purchased from Araunah the Jebusite, the last in the line of Jebusite (the tiny nation which resided in and controlled Jerusalem before King David captured and turned it into an Israelite area) kings the latter's threshing floor (2 Samuel, chapter 24, 20-25, Old Testament). The biblical narrative notwithstanding, the practical implication is King David actually bought Jerusalem from the Jebusites! So Jerusalem became Israelite property.
Also, do you really think all those conquerors cared so much for the city, much less wanted it as their capital? No! The Jewish people were the only nation who ever had it as capital city; even when it was occupied by foreign invaders and Jews weren't in control, they never ceased considering it a capital and aspired to regain and remake it capital city. This cannot be said of any other nation. This has remained so for 3003 years now...And which other religion even as much as tried purchasing Jerusalem?? Zilch.

Well done. Let me add to this that considering Islam's nature, any individual of reasonable intelligence would be compelled to conclude most Arabs and Moslims would have yearned to regain Mecca and Medina in the event a similar fate to Jerusalem's over the centuries befell them, at least as much as most Jews have been longing to regain control of their holy city. Don't forget Jews have never forbade gentiles from entering Jerusalem whereas Muslims always forbid Kaffirs from setting foot in their 2 holy cities. Gotta hand it to them to prove Islamic "tolerance".

Furthermore, the Muslims have shown interest in and considered Jerusalem a holy Muslim zone only when someone else was ruling it, most notably Jews. conversely, at periods when Muslims controlled it, their religious and political interest nearly hit the floor.

Let me answer seriously: the gentile Sharon bashers wouldn't give a whit if Sharon were black and wouldn't let him off the hook, because the cardinal point is his Jewishness. You know, there are many black Ethiopian Jews in Israel. Anyone of them would have been hated if one were in Sharon's place.

>>I think that's it. Israel is an extention of the US, so the theory goes, and since we are simply puppets of RICH WHITE GUYS then Israel must be selfish racist bastards as well.

You're right on the money with this one.

>>That and, some of you are simply Jew haters.

Right again. Most of them are at least closet Jew haters.

>>The "palestinians" should be damn glad their "oppressors" are "WHITE" and Jewish, otherwise no one around here would have ever heard of them.

I won't hold my breath to hear/see their gratitude for it. I'd like to give my 2 cents about the Arabs' future in general and "Palestinian" future in particular: in a bit under a century from now, all the oil pools underneith Arab lands will dry up, ending their petroliem blackmail capacity. In the interim, they might wipe Israel out and massacre all its Jews. In his case, they will have gained "Palestinian" independence. But if this won't happen, the US might finally decide to kick the collective "Palestinian" as out of the Land of Israel and establish a state for them in Jordan. The diligent reader will notice I've already discussed this above. It'll be practicle because all the Arabists in Foggy Bottom will lose their raison d'etre.

I forget who made the original quote, but I think it applies here......

An ideology is a closed system; there is nothing an ideology cannot explain. A closed system removes all doubts. It confers the armor of righteousness on those who believe, and shoves into outer darkness those who do not. The result is war." 

>>You're a disgrace to all big nosed people. Try looking at your listings jewbag before asking others to be more original. What does the truth have to do with you. Nobody has ever accused a jew of being a liar, or a thief or a cheat or penny pinching.........

Here you go folks, this knucklehead is actually dubbing Jews "big nosed people". How he knows I'm big nosed is beyond me.

>>When a discussion takes place it is the TRUTH that matters not originality. See that's where ur fucking up but then your jewish.

He pretends to give a shit about truth, this arch falsehood spouter. The 2nd sentence is an affront to myself, Dio and all other Jews reading his comments. (Though I don't take it personally.)

>>"Maybe you don't give a damn about how oppressed the Iraqi people and the Afghanis were under Saddam Insane and the Taliban, respectively. Their forceful removal was the only way of bettering these peoples' lots". This motherfuckers a liar and a hypocrite. wow from everything that Jewbag has written so far it is so painfully clear he feels so much for all Arabs and muslims. im sure you must be heartbroken.

This dickhead hasn't even tried suggesting an alternative in the way of improving the Iraqis' and afghanis' fortunes.

>>The next time you find something incorrect try attaching a link to some place where we can see your version of the truth a.k.a another lie.. Oh my bad the truth stands up for itself and doesnt need any "quotations" to support it. Which public is he talking about. This fools on crack. Hes making sweeping statements and doesnt have shit to show for it. HEY CRACKHEAD did U carry out these surveys yourself, where your talking of the public "knowing or becoming aware"

It's not so much my being on crack like you are using a psychological self defense mechanism of denial. Perhaps I should go and try using crack, it's not as bad as being in a perpetual state of denial as you're in. Dickhead, I'm exercising my rights under the 1st amendment and will debate as I see fit. If you dislike it, you're more than welcome to shut your trap, i.e. stop addressing me. Oh, and he's probably been his entire life in the Berkley milieu of all the hyper-Liberals (what he considers "public"), he probably never stuck his head out his confined Liberal environment.

>>Neturei Karta...Once again you read the article. Why dont you counter their claims? its because you cant can U?

Our favorite dickhead expects my to quote their site line by line or paragraph by paragraph and write rebuttals...poor thing, he's unable to appreciate the logic in what I've written.

>>"You should keep your tired old false myths, lies, melodrama and excessive cynicism to yourself. I'm not conned by this crap, nor are many others". listen man sounds to me like your getting desperate ;) dont get other people involved. This discussion is between me and you. Your not a mind reader so dont speak for other people. Come on baby lets talk. Oh yeah and everything i am saying is sooooo incorrect and everything your saying must be the truth cuz I dont know.... ur the chosen one or people or whatever.

Cockhead is deluding himself I'm getting desperate. That's something being played out only in his dick excuse for a mind. As for involving others - I've already said I'll bebate as I want; if you don't like it you can fuck off. He's so envious of the Chosen People...maybe he's among the People Chosen for Damnation by Virtue of Their Stupidity.

>>[fresca, daveman, Bushadmirer] Hey Crack Head I dont agree with what their saying either. why dont you go back and try reading what I have written in response to their posts...

Oh, let me see, if cockhead disagrees with them, he reckons it reflects poorly on me... . But in response, I've already read your responses to them and found 99.999999% of the logic therein to be bullshit.

>> You might have some facts but no skills at putting them across.

It's dumbfounding to read he's willing to concede I "might have some facts". I'm awestruck. One thing is certain, this dickhead puts his anal rhetoric across with flying colors.

>>With a nose as big as yours u need to be twice or three times as careful as the normal crackhead cuz with each sniff you probably take in 9 times as much SNORTER.

Dear readers, remember the caution in the end of my original message? I spoke of anti-Semitic garbage which would be rained down on me by "his dick-iness" Omar. And sure enough it's happening. The cat's out of the bag :-). So much for his distinguishing between Zionists and "mere" Jews. That filth of his is an offense to every Jew reading his trash. I think every Jew here should chastise our dickhead for it.

>>"As far as international law is concerned, Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip have been disputed territories as of June 1967 notwithstanding your semantic acrobatics." what were these territories before the first world war, after and before 1948? Just answer the question. Dont give me an explanation. just answer the question.

This fuckwit has deliberately ignored that I've already outlined the legal status of Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip during 1949-June 1967 in another posting, because he can't handle the truth, just as daveman said he wouldn't be able to. Our cockhead possibly whined to himself to the effect I've never laid out those facts. He obviously won't give a crap about my statement, but I'll tell everyone else: from international law's standpoint, before 1918 (when Britain ended the Ottoman a.k.a Turkish rule over Palestine) those territories were an integral part of Palestine, thet didn't have any legal status apart from all of Palestine's legal status. The Turkish Ottoman empire ruled Palestine (just one trivia detail: the Jews were reffering to Palestine as the Land of Israel, in Hebrew). Same thing with the period since WWI ended until May 1948. It's interesting to see our dickhead suddenly doesn't want to read an explanation - he has an abrupt impulse to read only bare facts with nothing to support them.

>>Obviously your not coming across as very clever otherwise I would not have needed to explain the UN to you.

I can't wait to read how he defends the anti-Semitic Durban hate-fest.

>>Man this man has no links, no arguments, talks like hes an expert (riiiight) doesnt offer proof for his arguments and is now discrediting Thomas Friedman and the New York Times. Usually when people come up with stuff that they cant prove or site sources for it is known as fiction Jewbag.

This indoctrinated or self-indoctrinated liberal bleeding heart is deluding himself thinking that most or at least half of all the at-least-resonably intelligent Americans don't know the facts about the New York Times. As always, he resorts to the "links" hysteria, thinking I must employ links and other sources to discredit Friedman and that paper, inspite of all the facts that are there for any individual wanting to learn them. Yet he considers every utterance of Mr. Friedman on Israel/Jews/"Palestinians" holy writ, WITHOUT trying to offer any proof to validate the quote he gleaned from his quotation book. He swoops on such utterances like they were catch. It has never occurred to our cockhead, who demands Zionist Jews to cite every possible source that he must put his money where his mouth is. He knows how to talk the talk yet can't walk the walk. Is this not so, LOSER??

Omar wrote on Tuesday June 17, 2003 11:19 PM, quote:

>>the Japanese bought a lot of the land in the US in the 1980s, you dont see them claiming that this country is a colony of theirs do U. Buying a corner plot doesnt give U sovereignity over that land.

This knucklehead is incapable of understanding Jews came to Palestine not as nationals of other nations or countries but as mere Jews ("Zionists") and that they didn't go there in a quest to gain their native countries an ethnic or political foothold, and that those Japanese had done it for business purposes, they never had designs of gaining Japanese autonomy or establishing any other Japanese national entity in the States. But When Jews headed for Palestine to settle there for good ("making 'Aliyah'") they psychologically parted with their native nationality,if not also in practice. It was brilliant on his part to leave out the part that the Arabs in Palestine, boasting a political movement by far inferior to that of the Jews, certainly weren't entitled to sovereignity - by his ownstandards.
Knucklehead, you've got to learn to get your analogies together. You're doing very poor in that department. Keep up with your delusions and denial of facts unfavorable to you.

>>Give me time Fresca I know you fighting for my attention but I can deal with only one scum at a time and Jewbag is the biggest scum so im dealing with him first. I havent forgotten about you ;)

Dickhead is beginning to feel the heat. Why can't he deal with one than more peron at a time, isn't he resourceful enough to muster enough cacophonic rhetoric to shoot at numerous people in a single session?

...you mean...and I can hardly type it...Omar hates Jews?

Gasp!

Cheer up. I'm sure it's nothing personal. He wouldn't dance any more joyfully if he learned you were killed by a homicide bomber than any other Jew.

Geez...he'd make guards at Treblinka say, "Holy cow, fellah...you really hate Jews, don't you?"

"Sy$teMF, I know you ment well
by "Jewboy" • Wednesday June 18, 2003 12:37 AM
"


Won't you be surprised. SFailure makes Omar look like a rabbi.

just to know I got under your skin you fucking faggot jewbag foreskin... Ill get back to you soon enough... 1st amendment rights... :D that is so pathertic.. Try the fifth buddy you might not look as stupid ;) Wait for my reply :D..

"fucking faggot jewbag foreskin"

Nice work! And from a paki no less.
Omar, you've outdone yourself. Really.
Your arguments have always been dismissed as nonsense and fantasies out of hand, but now you've demoted yourself to purely a figure of fun.

Score one for the "peace loving" muslim!

Still waiting omar.

Jew bag get a fucking job... hehehe :D you have entirely too much time on your hands... wait for my reply :D it will be here soon enough. I think ull like it :D... unless ur paying to be here ... which would explain a lot...

you crack me up U CRACK WHORE :D (pun intended :P) isnt it obvious I dont give a shit what U and the rest of the Israeli Brady bunch think. By the way you should get a job too. Are you always on this thing? Get a fucking life. Now im really sure ur a fat corn eating heiffer. I will get back to all of u but not at your pace. At my pace. Now please excuse me I do have a life to live :D hehehe LOSERS...

Omar, you couldn't possibly care MORE about what we think. We gotcha. That's what's so much fun. Seeing you get all worked up when you every nonsensical racist diatribe is trounced.

Now get back to that 7-11 and pull me a Slurpee.

"pull you a slurpee"

thats pretty funny... How about I just pull down my pants and let you earn enough money for your next hit ;)

What's your take on the Hama massacre?

when I read your foreskin drivel, even you surprised me, you pitiful ignoramus... . I mean, at the moment you had an acute urge to floor us with a rhyme. Anyone capable of dangling such balderdash couldn't ever get under my skin.

Now I see you're doing quite a fine job yourself at taking the 5th...keep it up. As I initially stressed, I won't hold my breath. You're really not much of a challenge. Perhaps you should switch to another site or chatroom where the interlocutors are more ignorant than yourself.

Earlier, Omar said: "When member states commit attrocities the UN is supposed to take action." He either had been brainwashed (he bothered telling us he's Pakistani, so it's an excellent bet he's inundated with Pakistani anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish propaganda) that it is Israel as an entity which always commits atrocities, or he overlooked my previous assertion that it is individuals or small groups of Jews who have committed atrocities in Judea, Samaria & the Gaza strip and are comdemned almost in unison by Israelis. But the paramount fact to bear in mind is the perpetrators are put on trial and punished. The UN is supposed, as far as memory serves me, to take action against member states only when they themselves commit atrocities or when they fail to penalize citizens who commit them on their initiative.

Furthermore, contrast Israel's justice system with the "Palestinian": these Arabs commit atrocities daily but are hardly ever brought to justice by the PA to stand trial in their kangaroo courts. Even the condemnations coming from various "Palestinian" spokespeople concerning atrocities by their brethren are always contingent on condemning also those from the Israeli side (!): "I'm condemning this criminal act and others committed against the 'settlers' JUST AS I condemn 'Zionist' atrocities against our people".

no please I beg you.. do hold your breath. I told U ill get back to you soon enough... in the meantime Ill let you go get that job you were thinking of getting and like I said wait for my reply .... you poor little thing .... now ur an expert on "pakistani propaganda" too.... you just happen to know everything about everything dont you.... you should have been the Oracle in the Matrix film motherfucker ...... forget Disney you should start your own company called La La land....

why you gotta talk shit bitch?
All you do is stir up mindless meaningless conjecture and never offer any solutions to any problems.
Everyone here thinks your a joke.
You think Im a jew hater?
Eat shit and die.
I seek to find a solution to the problem by provoking people to think.
You think because i am anti zionist i hate jews
that is bullshit.
You are the only totalitarian fuckhead here.
I love all people and wish to end the mindless violence that has corrupted the middle east.
It is a question of two extremist factions forcing thier will
upon a religious public.
and you laugh.......
fuck you bitch....
AnYtImE.....

As to fresca, I just wanna take exception to your 3rd line.

I for one do not.

no matter how much spam obfuscatio from our mole fresca=jewboy=daveman=bushadmirer etc on and on with the self-multis:

the author of the original post has aptly shown how sharon and the likud created hamas to sabotage the plo and peace - as shown by the fact that sharon never targets hamas leader yassini for a targeted assassination and let rantisi flee from the fake attempt on his life.

No matter how many times you repeat these lies, they'll never be taken for more than the genuine spam they are. However, if you repeat them often enough elsewhere, you might win converts to your theories. It won't happen here. If they were worthy of discussion, everyone would have focused solely on them.

What you're really trying to do is malign Sharon at any cost. You may succeed somewhere else.

either ya got counterarguments or else shut the fuck up and go back to sucking bush's dick.

Can't you be just a tiny-winnie bit more original?
You've been using that tired "either-or" sentence since day 1 and it won't further your cause any more than it has. Myself, I'm getting really bored by you. Seems like desperate people abhor originality. I'm tiring even from exhortations to suck cock.

YAWN

...could it be that he can't?

Jews, behind Hamas yeah that sounds right, I don't need any conformation. I also read somewhere that the Jews also started the Nazi movement. And since we all know they attacked us on 9-11. Every problem in the world can now be blamed on the Jews. Best of all, even if Hamas refuses to show it respects Israel's right to exist; and has no desire to make peace. (what we hate Sharon for) We can blame it all on the Jews. I love the world of hate, no need to think, just blame everything on the Jews. And if anyone doesn't like what I am saying, well then a Jew made me do it.

do you have any counterarguments to sharon=hamas as aptly shown by the original poster who quotes the orthodox jew daniel kurtzer an by the fact of sharon never targeting sheikh yassin for assassination - or else shut the fuck up and go give sharon another blowjob.

...provide us with sourcing + original link for your interesting post?

...for hamas/sharon and the reflection on the sionist american media:

http://sf.indymedia.org/print.php?id=1619504

...THEN IT MUST BE TRUE:SHARON=HAMAS!!!!!!!

We hate Muslims. Join us.

"I seek to find a solution to the problem by provoking people to think."

Yes, these comments of yours are very thought-provoking:

"why you gotta talk shit bitch?"

"Eat shit and die."

"You are the only totalitarian fuckhead here. "

"fuck you bitch"

Yes, you've made me think.

I think you're an idiot.

The spirit and absurd implication of the original post notwithstanding, I'll now poke a few holes in this self indulgent and openly racist tripe.

"Daniel Kurtzer made the connection between the growth of the Islamic fundamentalist groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Israel's promotion of the Islamic movement as a counter to the Palestinian nationalist movement."

In as much as this is even true, so what? Of course Israel would try and support a movement that would undermine the power of the monstrous PLA. Does that mean that Isreal set out to design a murderous group of Islamic terrorists bent on destroying Israel itself? Well what do you think? Obviously not.

"Kurtzer said that the growth of the Islamic movement in the Palestinian territories in recent decades—"with the tacit support of Israel"—was "not totally unrelated" to the emergence of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their terrorist attacks against Israel. "

The fact that the Islamic world flat out hates jews was "not totally unrelated" as well. Again, does this in any way illustrate that hamas is a creation of Israel. No.

"On one level the support for Hamas is simply the application of the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Indeed, in the minds of crude Israeli ultra-nationalists and fascists such as Sharon and his faction, this is indeed the case. Sharon is not interested in peace and therefore is not concerned that the violence and needless deaths of Israelis and Palestinians continue."

Classic. All of a sudden Sharon is a peace-hating fascist and Israeli nationalist freedom fighters are "crude". Not the "palestinians" or hamas which have systematically derailed every peace process and continue to wage a war simply due to the fact that they hate another groups religion. And this is all some grand scheme of the Jews. More nonsense.

Basically, the "author" would have us swallow the following:

Israel, at one point, supported the Islamic movement in "palestine" because it would weaken Arafats power base. Then...the author seems to leave this HUGE leap out of the equation...hamas and the other subhuman Islamic murder groups in "plaestine" start mysteriously blowing up in discos and busses. This was all part of the original plan, gowing back to at least 1973. The typist of the original post points to the phrase "not totally unrelated" as concrete proof of Israel designing a team of assasins with ALL Jews as the target.
Right.

I will agree with one thing however. The implication which cannot be avoided is that Israel's main crime was to allow the fermentation of the clearly barbaric Islamic fundamentalist movement. This nascent weed should have been ground down long ago. Israel's own tolerance of other religions has turned out to be it's greatest liability.

Now, there it is. In as much as Israel chose not to kill ALL of the murderous islamic terrorists before they had a chance to breed is the extent to which they are responsible for hamas.

"This nascent weed should have been ground
down long ago. Israel's own tolerance of other religions has turned out to be it's
greatest liability.

Now, there it is. In as much as Israel chose not to kill ALL of the murderous
islamic terrorists before they had a chance to breed is the extent to which they are
responsible for hamas."

How charming.

""This nascent weed should have been ground
down long ago. Israel's own tolerance of other religions has turned out to be it's
greatest liability.

Now, there it is. In as much as Israel chose not to kill ALL of the murderous
islamic terrorists before they had a chance to breed is the extent to which they are
responsible for hamas."

Tell me you aren't actually sticking up for these scumbags. There is nothing racist about praying for the slow death of an organized murderous hate group like hamas.

You need to pick your heroes more carefully animal.

>>Kurtzer said that the growth of the Islamic movement in the Palestinian territories in recent decades—"with the tacit support of Israel"—was "not totally unrelated" to the emergence of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their terrorist attacks against Israel.<<

this is what the original post said.

"tacit SUPPORT",FRESCA. support.
learn to read.

and: the most striking evidence that sharon protects hamas is his never getting yassin withhis targeted assassinations.

to which you don't respond.

could il be that you can't?


just like bush never seems to get osama or saddam etc.

perpetual war needs excuses.you don't kill the excuses do ya when biz is so good.

To the "9:41 the assmole" and "SHARON=HAMAS" cowards:

(quotes)
>>sharon=hamas as aptly shown by the original poster who quotes the orthodox jew daniel kurtzer and by the fact of sharon never targeting sheikh yassin for assassination - or else shut the fuck up and go give sharon another blowjob.
>>well if daniel kurtzer said it...THEN IT MUST BE TRUE:SHARON=HAMAS!!!!!!!

You're too damn ignorant and stupid to realize a Jew's religious denomination doesn't bind him to a right wing political outlook. Mr. Kurtzer has been left wing as far back as the 1970s at least. He supports the extreme Israeli non-parliamentary left wing movement "Peace Now" which is Left to Labor. And when Mr. Begin came to the US on his first visit as Prime Mininster, Mr. Kurtzer refused to even shake hands with him.

Fresca had aptly demolished your arguments. He and I have shown that your concept of what constitutes facts, truth and proof wouldn't stand up even in a kangaroo court. If you can't accept fresca's explanations and reasoning then you're an imbecile of the highest order. So go both of you to Jimmy Carter and Clinton and give them each a thorough blowjob.

Can you bottle the acid just a toutch? It's tiresome.

the fact that kurtzer may be left-wing does not imply he's not telling the truth anout sharon=hamas.

it's called elementary logic,asshole.

and if you have no counterarguments neither your alter ego "fresca",then why doesn't bush fire you?

he can sure afford a better troll!

you wrote, quote:

<< The implication which cannot be avoided is that Israel's main crime was to allow the fermentation of the clearly barbaric Islamic fundamentalist movement. This nascent weed should have been ground down long ago. Israel's own tolerance of other religions has turned out to be it's greatest liability.

Collectively, we Jews have a deep seated problem - too often we're naive to the point of gullibility. The Israelis hadn't done their homework prior to nurturing an Islamic movement as an alternative to PLO - they didn't take into account Islam's negating outlook concering Jews.

The reluctance to stamp out these Islamic wild weeds, even nowadays, betrays another deep seated Jewish problem: modern day Jews do not go as far as wiping out an entire population unless it's engaged in full fledged war as a regular army. When it comes to warring, Jews have a very distinctively "defensive" orientation. Theirs is not an "offensive" one. Many people on the planet are perplexed by Israel's reluctence in this case and many others, with excellent reason. This Jewish trait is an anomaly whose origins are historical and religious - after the Jewish defeat in the 135 AD, the Rabbis decided Jews should never revolt against the Romans again. This had become popular with the Jews in Palestine and increasingly made sense when their numbers dwindled further. But later on it had also become a deep seated and self defeating habit. Most of the Jews lived then in other lands, so they obviously never got form a Jewish army until the 20th century. But, had this problem arisen between 140 BCE and 66 BCE, when Jews had independence, and the present military technology had been around at that period, I bet my life the Jews would have inihalated them so fast other peoples' heads would spin.

All those "cloack and dagger" theories stem out of either ignorance vis-a-vis the collective Jewish psyche as I've outlined above or refusal to accept my above explanation, or both. A refusal to learn and accept such facts is an exercise in anti-Semitism.

no need for jew-massmurderer sharon to wipe out all palòestinians - he'd just need to wipe out 1:sheikh yassin.

game over.

but no - they do not want the war game over .- too profitable.

so yassin roams free and the violence created by sharon prospers on.

with colin's blessing.

please stop your fake dialogues with your self-multiplied moniker "fresca" - you're pathetic.

Someone has already asked you twice now to provide us all with the source and original link for your initial post. I think it's a very reasonable request and my curiosity has also arisen.

For some unknown reason you refuse to do so. Do you fear the implications of giving them away or somethin'? I'm hereby joining the appeal and calling on you to
PROVIDE US WITH SOURCING + ORIGINAL LINK FOR YOUR INTERESTING POST.
PROVIDE US WITH SOURCING + ORIGINAL LINK FOR YOUR INTERESTING POST.
PROVIDE US WITH SOURCING + ORIGINAL LINK FOR YOUR INTERESTING POST.
PROVIDE US WITH SOURCING + ORIGINAL LINK FOR YOUR INTERESTING POST.
PROVIDE US WITH SOURCING + ORIGINAL LINK FOR YOUR INTERESTING POST.

cloak and dagger might be away or on vacation or whatever...

anyway does anyone know where this original andromidas article originally appeared?

how about a google search jewboy mele?

I'm sure bush provides you moleys with nexis and shit...

come on find this source for us and give us the link,so we can keep on firing on each other on a more solid basis.

thanx in advance.I know your joining the request was not preposterous or was it....so show how serious you are.

cheerio.

At least your request was polite. But I decline.

Truth of the matter is you and your ilk on this discussion are the quintessential pitifuls. I see you also spelled "palòestinians" - you're probably European, not American at any rate. You're obsessed with Sharon. How about Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu? Get a life, loser.

I didn't know there was a european spelling for palestinian...your pseudolinguistics don't belong in my neckadawoods...

I'm not obsessed with sharon - it's just sharon is the issue here whether you like it or not and no matter how many times you try to obfuscate the point:

SHARON=HAMAS,just like bush never gets osama etc.

...jewboy's non-collaboration notwithstanding,here's the original source for the andromidas article:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/AND204A.html

which in turn will link you on to a load of great sharon=hamas essays.

thanx google.fuck you jewboy.

If you say Sharon is the issue, screwie, you must leave Osama and Hussein out. You've further obfuscated even your own morbid "point" beyond the point of murkiness. You must put your money where your mouth is, sissie.

As for forming equations, you don't know how to. The only logical one is SCREWIE=HAMAS.

you're wrong again hairsplitta:

govt terror is a global phenomenon in which sharon bush and blair plus their little satellites collaborate hand in glove - therefore it is perfectly legitimate to illustrate and explain how sharon uses yassin as a tool with the bush/osama or bush/saddam example.

one more thing:

I think that if yassin osama saddam and the rest of them thugs haven't understood the neme of the game in 30 years or 25,then it's one of the 2:

EITHER THEY ARE COMPLETE IDIOTS - OR,MORE LIKELY,THEY ARE CIA AGENTS PROVOCATEURS.

backup linkography for sharon=hamas:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/SZA204A.html

I've begun learning about Dean Andromidas. He's a journalist with the Executive Intelligence Review, a magazine published by CONSPIRACY THEORIST Lyndon LaRouche.

This is the first clue to suggest we're bickering over one of the "writings" of a bunch of paranoids who see conspiracies everywhere and conjure them into any issue they want when the mood strikes.
But I don't think this detail and others will enlighten people of your preoccupation, or at the very least make you start questioning Dean Andromidas's motives and thruthfulness.

Here's a brief collection of LaRouche's morbid "pearls of wisdom":

1. About Judaism: "Judaism is the religion of a caste of subjects of Christianity, entirely molded by ingenious rabbis to fit into the ideological and secular life of Christianity. In short, a selfsustaining Judaism never existed and never could exist. As for Jewish culture otherwise, it is merely the residue left to the Jewish home after everything saleable has been marketed to the Goyim."

- "The Case of Ludwig Feuerbach", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., (under pen name L. Marcus), The Campaigner, December 1973

"America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor."

- "A War-winning Strategy", Editorial, New Solidarity, March 1978

2. About Israelis: "Israelis. Can one punish sheep for being sheep? The Israelis have behaved with monstrous, worse-than-Nazi bestiality. But are not sheep bestial? Are not the Israelis behaving with the bestiality of terrified sheep, driven to homicidal psychosis by their won bestial fears? What can be done with such bestial Israelis, except to transform them from bestial sheep, to take them out of the kibbutz sheep-pens of psychosis, and employ the method of the Platonic dialogue to transform them into genuine men and women of reason?"

- "Despite What Israel Has Done" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., The Campaigner, March 1978

3. About Zionism: "Zionism is the state of collective psychosis through which London manipulates most of international Jewry."

- "Zionism Is Not Judaism" Editorial, The Campaigner, December 1978

4. Adolf Adolf Hitler: "The first, and most important fact to be recognized concerning the Hitler regime, is that Adolf Hitler was put into power in Germany on orders from London. The documentation of this matter is abundant and conclusive."

- "Humboldt Versus Hitler", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., The Campaigner, August 1978

5. The Beatles: "The Beatles had no genuine musical talent, but were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence."

- "Why Your Child Became A Drug Addict" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Campaigner Special Report, Copyright 1978

6. About Jazz: "Jazz was foisted on black Americans by the same oligarchy which had run the U.S. slave trade, with the help of the classically trained but immoral George Gershwin and the Paris-New York circuit of drug-taking avant-garde artists."

- "The Racist Roots of Jazz", Back Cover, The Campaigner, September-October 1980

* Remark: Gershwin was a JEWISH composer.

* Comment: LaRouche is also EIR's founding editor.

I think you all have subscriptions to the EIR magazine. Either that or you're all Larouche groupies. Perhaps "Cloack and dagger" is your clique leader because he uploaded the article here.

In any rate, the theory being touted by this article that you consider as gospel doesn't hold water. I'll never be convinced. I'm gleaning more details about Larouche and everything is beginning to make sense to me, like why you talk about Bush, Osama, Hussein etc. in the same beath you mention Sharon.

I haven't heard yet from you, cowards. Just answer me one question now, would ya? Why have you fallen silent?

...if he said the sun rises in the east.

The man is certifiable.

But since he hates Jews, he's A-OK with IMC, huh?

Your research staff is to be commended.

The best form of Black Propaganda is to take a writer's, or speaker's, words out of context and then quote selectively to paint the desired picture.

Having said that I am not a Larouche Fan I just found the article interesting and thought the Zionazi's would have a fit over it.

They did.

Sitting here reading all these posts, it struck as so typical that this charge would eventually surface.

How predictable that when faced with refutation after refutation from Jewboy, myself, daveman and others, the sheep around here would ultimately throw out this absurdity.

It's gotten harder and harder for the nuts (not simply liberals or leftists but just plain deluded) to apaologize and rationalize the actions of hamas et.al and those "palestinian victims" who wholeheartedly support them. So hard in fact, that someone eventually culls a missive from some dubious source at best, telling us all the true cause of all the violence. That the Jews, in essence, are attacking themselves for, as more than one complete IDIOT posted, huge profits.

Israel has formed a group of Islamic subhuman murderers and charged them with the mission of killing ALL JEWS and all those in close proximity to ALL JEWS. What's more, the proof of this theory is that Israel has failed to hunt down and kill the head of this group of animals. Faulty logic? Not even close. No logic at all.

Furthermore, if and when Israel does in fact put down this scumbag, the sheep in the "hate Israel at any cost " camp will ponit to that as even more proof of Sharon's masterminding of hamas. After all what better way to throw of suspicion than to raise a false flag.

This thread has gotten ENTIRELY to much coverage based on how utterly non-sensical it is in it's implications.

EVERY single element of it has been refuted over and over agin with virtually no effort by Jewboy and the rest of us.

It's simply silly.

You sissys are actually getting into a slap fight, silly girls.
don't smear the lipstick, ladies ha

The arch hate monger "Cloak and Dagger" came out of his hiding place.

"Black Propaganda"? Don't make us piss ourselves. I for one haven't taken LaRouche's above mentioned quotes about Israelis, Judaism and Zionism out of context, you pathetic loser. Nor have I tried painting pictures. That's your doing here (regarding Sharon and Likud), you sicko. You're out of excuses and about to hit rockbottom. There is ample proof on Google that Larouche is anti-Semitic.

"Cloak & Dagger", you're overtly anti-Semitic and a filthy lowlife pig. Go give Arafat, David Duke, Mat Hale, Pat Buchanan et al. a blowjob.

The LaRouchites generally operate under front groups such as Food for Peace and the Schiller Institute, and publications such as the New Federalist and Executive Intelligence Review. (Read this paragraph and the rest here: http://www.publiceye.org/larouche/LaRouche_Theories.htm)

* Here's a conspiracy site run by Lyndon R. Larouche: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Oct-08-Tue-2002/opinion/19795105.html

* Here is how LaRouche has tried to obcure his neo-Nazi Fascism in the eyes of the public:
During the late 1980's the LaRouchites covertly sought to expand their contacts with the Left and attempted to link up with progressive groups. Many progressive researchers report that during this period they began to receive telephone calls from LaRouchian operatives suggesting joint work or offering documents or story ideas.

* Fred Newman is self-hating Jew, a co-leader of a pro-Qaddafi pro-Arab terror cult called "New Alliance Party". This Newman started as an ally of Lyndon LaRouche! One Jew hater hooked up with another!
Investigative journalist Dennis King, whose book, "Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism" was published by Doubleday in 1989, claimed that all of Fulani and Newman's organizations, including the All Stars Project, "have the political goal to further the power of Fred Newman and Lenora Fulani." (Read about Fulani here: http://jdo.org/buchanan.htm).

* 21st Century Science & Technology Magazine describes Larouche as a POLITICAL figure and a well-known major ECONOMIST... Lyndon LaRouche applies the method of the exact sciences, economics. The concept he puts forward is based on bringing the EXACT SCIENCES into the social sciences. So...he analyzes the Palestinians' and Israelis' behavior as well as phenomena as Zionism and the "Palestinian" cause by applying models of exact sciences. This is a GRAVE mistake, since people, religions, nations and conflicts do NOT lend themselves to such analysis methods. Seldom do people behave in rational patterns, let alone in the Middle East. So his choice of method is ludicrous.

* US DEMOCRATIC Party PRESIDENTIAL pre-candidate for 2004, Lyndon R. Larouche played an initiating role in formulating what President Ronald Reagan announced on March 23, 1983 as the "Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) (!!!). Yet...he opposed the economic and related policy-matrices of the administrations of Presidents like Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Bush (most notably). (http://committeerepubliccanada.ca/English/LaRouchebio.htm). Seems to me this guy likes to have it both ways - a rightwinger who is also a "leftist" ,- a peculiar political brew, to put it mildly. No wonder he edits and publishes a conspiracy themed magazine.

Since 1964-1972, he has been a leading organizer of the opposition to the 1964-1972 cultural paradigm-shift. On this account, he has become a leading target of bitter enmity from ideologues of such sundry New Age cults as the "rock-drug-sex counterculture," "post-industrial utopianisms" generally, and "neo-malthusian" forms of anti-scientific, "environmentalist" fads. As a result of that, he has been the target of sundry known efforts to eliminate him, even physically, by sundry official and private agencies inside the U.S.A. and abroad. Remark: this can explain why he's so obsessed with conspiracy theories regarding powerful GOVERNMENTS worldwide in general, and SHARON, in particular.

* Please read also this link ("LaRouche exposed"): http://www.pcc-courieronline.com/news/111501/larouche.html
This is a telling narrative of a college student who escaped from the LaRouche cult's clutches.
Btw, it indirectly sheds light on the monsterous drivel I've read in this discussion. All the dorks posting here are probably either members of the various LaRouche organizations or fans.

the issue is not personal,unwarranted attacks on dean andromidas.

the point is whether dean's article makes sense or not.

and it does.personal,unwarranted ad hominem device is no replacemente for your lack of counterarguments,screwboy sucko - it only makes you look more like a fool.

will you please provide verifiable sourcing/links to the quote you attribute to larouche or else shut the fuck up.

"the point is whether dean's article makes sense or not.

and it does."

Only if you're looking for (additional) reasons to hate Jews.

"...it only makes you look more like a fool."

No, it doesn't. You look like a fool for believing it.

hey moley:

provide verifiable evidence/links that larouche hates jews or else shut the fuck up will ya baby.

daveman
(who posted the other two "inflammatory" comments)
posts the links to "prove " himself right in the conversation with himself at 5am..........
what a loser.

I post only under one name: daveman.

You, however, don't have the integrity to post under one name, because you're a coward.

Nor do I have to "provide verifiable evidence/links that larouche hates jews or else shut the fuck up will ya baby" to satisy you. You can easily find evidence enough to suit yourself. "Jewboy" may provide you with links; discuss it with him.

Now, do you understand? Or are you going to keep up the paranoid fantasy?

only an asshole could have said that sharon can't target yassin because of vastity whan in fact yassin is livin' in full view and constant media spotlight in a strip of flat desert smaller than santa monica.

as for osama - bothe german intel head august hanning and senator graham have repeatedly stated they know where osama is:

yhe afghan/paki border:

is this maybe why bush the terrorist waged war...on iraq instead??????

as for saddam:

sunni iraq where he's rumored to be hiding so as to justify continued us occupation of iraq is a strip of desert as big as la county -

and 150000 reported us soldiers can't get him?

go give bush a better blowjob,idiot.

can bush really not afford a better indy spammer than this frescasshole retard?

"can bush really not afford a better indy spammer than this frescasshole retard?"

Exactly.

That proves he's not a "paid shill", as the typical Indymidiot would have us believe.

evidence that eir=larouche or shut the fuck up.

furthermore,I don't give a fuck about larouche.

but I do care for logical thinking and truth,and andromidas essay provides both - unlike you,moles.

the fact that all you can come up with is a truckload of crap and no arguments worth the name is only proof that neither the bush terrorists nor their indy spammers pursue critical thinking or the truth.

"the fact that all you can come up with is a truckload of crap and no arguments worth the name... "

Funny...you could say the same thing about the Left.

Yout estimation of a source's credibility is based solely on how much it vilifies Bush.

That's all.

If you found an article signed by Spongebob Squarepants that discussed how evil the Bush adminitration is, it'd be immediately posted in IMC , with the juiciest quotes on signs at the next protest rally.

Your rabid willingness to buy into anything that underscores your belief in Bush's evil shows exactly how little credibility your cause has.

Can you say, "Grasping at straws"?

daveman=screwboy=fresca:

the point here is sharon creating hamas as shown by his never targeting yassin to perpetuate the cycle of violence and the war dividends.

either stick to the point or spare us your pathetic diversionary tactics,moley.

Sharon may have created Hamas.

Big deal.

Now he wants Hamas stopped.

You can't deny that. Well, you can, but it just shows how you attempt to justify your Jew-hatred.

"daveman=screwboy=fresca"

Why does the fact that three people disagree with you frighten you so much you have to concoct a paranoid fantasy that they're one and the same person?

1- sharon is not trying to stop hamas at all - because he never targets yassin and lets rantisi flee.

2-daveman=fresca=screwboy=bush admirer etc.:

the odds that so many fascist assholes would be spamming indy 24/7 out of their own pockets are truly scant,wuldn't you say?

fuck off imbecile - get a life.

"1- sharon is not trying to stop hamas at all - because he never targets yassin and lets rantisi flee."

Right. And if he did kill Rantisi, you'd be wetting your pants about that.

"2-daveman=fresca=screwboy=bush admirer etc.:

the odds that so many fascist assholes would be spamming indy 24/7 out of their own pockets are truly scant,wuldn't you say?"

Fascist? No. Prove it. Spamming? No. Prove it. Truly scant odds? No. It's a big country. Are you saying there's no room in IMC for dissenting viewpoints? Ever hear of freedom of speech? You know, the thing you want only for those who agree with you?

What are you people afraid of?

"fuck off imbecile - get a life."

You first, coward.

you still refuse to respond as to why sharon never targets yassin and lets rantisi flee.

we know by now that you can't.

as for you and so many other sharonites spamming - since you never come up with 1 decent argument - the wire 24/7:
yes there is another explanation:

you're bill gates' deranged sons!!!!!!

just being sarcastic. Some of U motherfuckers need a God damn job especially the three JEW-kateers Fresca, faggot boy and daveman. In case your wondering I had a great Weekend and I will get back to ripping on you punks and bitches soon enough :D

(for some reason, this was hidden/censored at SF IMC)

From the Islamic webist http//:ijtihad.org/memo.htm reprinted in Adbusters

A Memo to American Muslims

M. A. Muqtedar Khan

In the name of Allah, the most Benevolent and the Most Merciful. May this memo find you in the shade of Islam enjoying the mercy, the protection and the grace of Allah.

I am writing this memo to you all with the explicit purpose of inviting you to lead the American Muslim community in soul searching, reflection and reassessment.

What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values.

The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad.

Even if it were true that Israel and the US are enemies of the Muslim World, wonder what is preventing them from unleashing their nuclear arsenal against Muslims, a response that mercilessly murders thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of Muslims is absolutely indefensible. If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act?

While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).

Muslims, including American Muslims have been practicing hypocrisy on a grand scale. They protest against the discriminatory practices of Israel but are silent against the discriminatory practices in Muslim states. In the Gulf one can see how laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism, but we never hear of Muslims protesting against them at International fora.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is perhaps central to Muslim grievance against the West. While acknowledging that, I must remind you that Israel treats its one million Arab citizens with greater respect and dignity than most Arab nations treat their citizens. Today Palestinian refugees can settle and become citizens of the United States but in spite of all the tall rhetoric of the Arab world and Quranic injunctions (24:22) no Muslim country except Jordan extends this support to them.

While we loudly and consistently condemn Israel for its ill treatment of Palestinians we are silent when Muslim regimes abuse the rights of Muslims and slaughter thousands of them. Remember Saddam and his use of chemical weapons against Muslims (Kurds)?. Remember Pakistani army’s excesses against Muslims (Bengalis)?. Remember the Mujahideen of Afghanistan and their mutual slaughter? Have we ever condemned them for their excesses? Have we demanded international intervention or retribution against them? Do you know how the Saudis treat their minority Shiis? Have we protested the violation of their rights? But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for rights and lives of the Palestinians, we don’t. We condemn Israel because we hate “them".

TO RECEIVE NOTIFICATION OF NEW ARTICLES

JOIN GLOCALEYE EMAIL LIST

Muslims love to live in the US but also love to hate it. Many openly claim that the US is a terrorist state but they continue to live in it. Their decision to live here is testimony that they would rather live here than anywhere else. As an Indian Muslim, I know for sure that nowhere on earth, including India, will I get the same sense of dignity and respect that I have received in the US. No Muslim country will treat me as well as the US has. If what happened on september 11th had happened in India, the biggest democracy, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughterred in riots on mere suspicion and there would be another slaughter after confirmation. But in the US, bigotry and xenophobia has been kept in check by media and leaders. In many places hundreds of Americans have gathered around Islamic centers in symbolic gestures of protection and embrace of American Muslims. In many cities Christian congregations have started wearing hijab to identify with fellow Muslim women. In patience and in tolerance ordinary Americans have demonstrated their extraordinary virtues.

It is time that we acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree than prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with. If you do not leave and do not acknowledge that you would rather live here than anywhere else, know that you are being hypocritical.

It is time that we faced these hypocritical practices and struggled to transcend them. It is time that American Muslim leaders fought to purify their own lot.

For over a decade we have watched as Muslims in the name of Islam have committed violence against other Muslims and other peoples. We have always found a way to reconcile the vast distance between Islamic values and Muslim practices by pointing out to the injustices committed upon Muslims by others. The point however is this – our belief in Islam and commitment to Islamic values is not contingent on the moral conduct of the US or Israel. And as Muslims can we condone such inhuman and senseless waste of life in the name of Islam?

The biggest victims of hate filled politics as embodied in the actions of several Muslim militias all over the world are Muslims themselves. Hate is the extreme form of intolerance and when individuals and groups succumb to it they can do nothing constructive. Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people and as a result of their actions not only have thousands of innocent people died in America, but thousands of people will die in the Muslim World.

Already, half a million Afghans have had to leave their homes and their country. The war has not yet begun. It will only get worst. Hamas and Islamic Jihad may kill a few Jews, women and children included, with their suicide bombs and temporarily satisfy their lust for Jewish blood, but thousands of Palestinians then pay the price for their actions.

The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on “the other” and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah. In pursuit of the inferior jihad we have sacrificed the superior jihad.

Islamic resurgence, the cherished ideals of which pursued the ultimate goal of a universally just and moral society has been hijacked by hate and call for murder and mayhem. If Binladen were an individual then we would have no problem. But unfortunately Binladen has become a phenomenon -- a cancer eating away at the morality of our youth, and undermining the spiritual health of our future.

Today the century old Islamic revival is in jeopardy because we have allowed insanity to prevail over our better judgment. Yes, the US has played a hand in the creation of Binladen and the Taliban, but it is we who have allowed them to grow and gain such a foothold. It is our duty to police our world. It is our responsibility to prevent people from abusing Islam. It is our job to ensure that Islam is not misrepresented. We should have made sure that what happened on Sept. 11th should never have happened.

It is time the leaders of the American Muslim community woke up and realized that there is more to life than competing with the American Jewish lobby for power over US foreign policy. Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting innocent people.

I hope that we will now rededicate our lives and our institutions to the search for harmony, peace and tolerance. Let us be prepared to suffer injustice rather than commit injustices. After all it is we who carry the divine burden of Islam and not others. We have to be morally better, more forgiving, more sacrificing than others, if we wish to convince the world about the truth of our message. We cannot even be equal to others in virtue, we must excel.

It is time for soul searching. How can the message of Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent as mercy to mankind become a source of horror and fear? How can Islam inspire thousands of youth to dedicate their lives to killing others? We are supposed to invite people to Islam not murder them.

The worst exhibition of Islam happened on our turf. We must take first responsibility to undo the evil it has manifest. This is our mandate, our burden and also our opportunity.

Mr. Khan, for that insightful essay. If more religious folks (of all faiths) were like you, it would be a much better world.

Reply to: M. A. Muqtedar Khan

Mr. Khan - That has to be one of the best posts I've ever read on Indymedia. You sir are a very enlightened and intelligent individual. I salute you.

Thanks for putting that up here.

B.A.

Dear Khan,
i really liked your post. It is hard on muslims but I agree that these are bitter pills that we need to swallow but they are half of the problem. Yes I agree that this country is great. In my mind there is no country better but Islam tells u to speak out injustice everywhere and of all kinds and the Palestinian issue is so critical.. there are thousands of palestinians dieing for their right for self determination. Just cuz im talking of Israeli injustice doesnt mean I dont agree that the muslim world is decaying under the rule of the worst kind of sons of bitches. Thats is another can of worms. Its a tough issue and it needs looking at but this page is about Israel and that is why that is being discussed. But thank u my brother I agree with U totally

"But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for rights and lives of the Palestinians, we don’t. We condemn Israel because we hate “them".

No this is not correct at all. We dont hate them. If today they were to stop crushing them I as a muslim would have nothing against them. I would welcome a State of Israel that will leave peacefully with a palestinian state as that would be the end of this story and I can stop feeling so bad for my Palestinain brothers getting slaughtered out there

Here you go: http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/institutional_analysis/lhldefd.html

This is one quote of 2 or 3 I've found. Now shut the fuck up fucktard and go suck his dick.

You're illiterate, so I won't bother (Your mom types for you. Don't forget to tell her "thank you".).

EIR=LaRouche indeed, fucktard.

Don't make me die of laughter, chucklehead. You give much more than a fuck AND blowjob about LaRouche. Conversely, truth and logical thinking are anathema to you. Shut the fuck up and go suck Andromidas's dick and balls.

I'm enjoying all this, otherwise I woudn't be here.

"A truckload of crap" is one of your monikers, you cockhead. You don't care a whit about critical thinking and truth.

YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL UNI-DIMENSIONAL FUCKWITS (AT BEST).
YOU'VE GOT NOTHING ELSE TO DO DURING YOUR WAKING HOURS THAN SPAM THE NET WITH YOUR CONPIRACY SHIT.
IN A SENSE YOU ARE *WORSE* THAN HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD, AL-FATAH, ETC. NOT EQUAL TO THEM .

YOU SHOULD FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE SET BY M. A. MUQTEDAR KHAN.

let me thank you for publicly acknowledging as a Muslim that the US and especially Israel are NOT enemies of the Muslim world. You've unconditionally disavowed all the violent acts that have been, are and will be committed in the name of Islam.
As far as dealing with Kafirs is concerned, you've pointed to the positive parts in the Quran as the portions which should be invoked rather than others. I'm especially delighted to read about the source you cited vis-a-vis forgiveness.

Kudos for the sober acknowledgement that Israel indeed treats its Arab nationals better than they would be treated elsewhere in the Arab world. There are many "Palestinian" refugees throughout the Arab world (even after 36 or 55 years...), even in Jordan. But they are NOT afforded equal rights to the non-"Palestinian" population's. The Arab governments have been perpetuating their refugee status as early as 1948 so as to use them as political pawns against Israel.

As for Israel's discriminatory practices, let me inform you that many of them if not most are a corollary of Israel's attempts to remain a Jewish state rather than become another bi-national or Arab one. While I can see why Israeli Arabs are indignant about these practices, it must be borne in mind that the Jewish people has only one country and state whereas Arabs and Muslims have many, let alone the fact the Arabs residing in areas near Israel's surrounding countries aren't culturally distinguishable from their counterparts in those countries AT ALL. In any event, a certain degree of discrimination in the Jews' favor is unavoidable, regardless of many people's disagreement with this statement. This is why Israel will never adopt a US like constitution,- Israel is a unique nation state.

You demonstrate fortitude by pointing to how your Arab and other brethren condemn Israel (and Jews) because they hate them. Most Arabs indeed do NOT care for the "Palestinians" despite their being their own brethren.

You've brought up the topic of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The unfortunate truth is not only they indulge in committing homicidal suicide attacks, but also Arafat's military wing as well as the leftist organizations, such as PFLP do. And it seems like no matter how many Jews they manage to kill, their desire for our blood is never quenched. Had Israel not defended itself and been eliminating these terrorists whenever the chance appears - albeit guided by certain PR constraints - there would have been dozens of thousands, if not hundreds, of Jewish victims. What they've been doing since Sep. '00 is to attempt genocide against Israeli Jews. And they would have succeeded.

You deserve accolades for underscoring Islam is not about competing with or defeating Jews.
I'm pretty sure you're conscious of the fact Jerusalem is much less holy to Islam than Mecca and Medina are. The Quran related how Muhammad had a Night Journey (either in a dream or in daydream) to "Al-Aqsa", which in actuality means the heavenly temple of MECCA (we Jews, btw, have a parallel Heavenly Temple to our own), yet the Arabs (and possibly most Muslims) deliberately interpreted it in a very fussy way to mean the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (hence Al-Aqsa mosque) in order to gain control of the site where the holiest Jewish shrine had been. The Arabs ended up totally forbidding Jews from setting foot on the Temple Mount and trashing almost all the Jewish relics thereon.

Having said all the above, it must be observed that as long as the Wahabbi strain of Islam isn't snuffed out, many more Kafirs and Muslims alike will keep dying.

I second Bush Admirer's words.
And When the uni-dimensional scums on this discussion lump me together with him and spout their smutty musings, I wear them as a badge of honor. It means I'm in the right camp.

I meant to say you unconditionally DISOWNED violent acts.
Sorry for the confusion.

Omar can haze me as much as he wants, but he neglected to mention the "Palestinians" willingly began a murder campaign and must be prepared to pay the price as long as they carry on. Besides, no people achieves its independence without making many sacrifices for it.

He's also back to deluding himself - he denies most Arabs' and Muslims' hatred for Israel. This is pathetic!

Note how he tries to convey an impression Israel and the Jews are the villain while the "Palestinians" are the victim - he has it reversed. All of his lovely tuned musings about Israel vis-a-vis a Palestinian state are absolutely detached from the reality of the past 3 years. He also ignores or is uninformed of how his Arab brothers wouldn't consider a Palestinian state by Israel's side an end of the conflict.
He also wants to believe the decay in the Muslim world is unrelated to its constant struggle against Israel. Wrong again.

mr "khan,I have no way to verify who the hell you are.

but your post clearly proves that you are an asshole:

you attribute to muslims an event - 911 - for which there is not one single shred of evidence that muslims did it - quite the contrary:

all circumstantial evidence points to a govt terror act.

let me first praise screwboy for at least beginning to do his homework

let me also state that I don't give a fuck about larouche - once they tried to mess with me in front of the post office and it was just a pile of shit so I told them where to go.

having said this,it doesn't mean all the quotes are wrong.

>"America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor."<<<

this quote is wrongliy expressed in that it generalizes,but it is true that some of the worst criminals against humanity are jewish and are with the govt today:

Wolfowitz,Rumsfeld,Perle - even Powell has jewish ancestors.

anyway what I hate about such quotes or level of discussion is the obfuscation:

jewishness has NOTHING to do with these pigs' crimes - it's corporate greed that moves them.

again,part of those larouche quote is crap - if they are authentic,because the site quotes second-hand.

it's not a primary source.

but if authentic,the bs about jazz and the beatles is just dogmatic crap.

and the quotes never come up with backup documentation.

but then again,they're taken out of context so I don't know.

anyway:nowhere do these quote express hatred for the jews as you wrongly stated.


"The first, and most important fact to be recognized concerning the Hitler regime, is that Adolf Hitler was put into power in Germany on orders from London. The documentation of this matter is abundant and conclusive."

this one quote though misses its mark only very narrowly:

it is widely acknoledged among historians that part of the brit royal family had nazi sympathies.

and: both grandpas of the current white house terrorist
bush financed the nazi party,according to john loftus in his book the secret war against the jews and to:

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/63596_comment.php

>>EIR=LaRouche indeed, fucktard. <<

prove it or go eat dick cheney,asshole.

>>I'm enjoying all this, otherwise I woudn't be here<<

so let's figure this out - you are enjoying your shit figures daily on indy 24/7 at your own expense?

don't you have a dayjob?

wow man you reaally must be bill gates' deranged son then - go eat him.

it's amazing the amount of obfuscation vomited here by our resident mole "daveman"="fresca"="jewboy" - he even self-multiplied as mr khan....

anyway screwboy:

either stick to the point you are still refusing to address,the point being:

the creation of hamas by the israeli right in sabotage of the peace process and of secular nationalist palestinians,as aptly shown in andromidas' article and as further proven by sharon never targeting hams leader yassin for assassination and letting rantisi flee in order to perpetuate the cycle of violence.

either stick to the issue or shove you obfuscation up your ass,motherfucker.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZAR204A.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STE204A.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LIT204A.html

what else did you expect - the loser has run out of pseudoarguments.

after reading the linx provided reader ask you this:

how come powell and the fucking eu always stigmatize only hamas but not the hamas founder,jew-massmurderer sharon?

how come the military wings of hamas and their press are based in London,Texas and Virginia and bush doesn't seem to care?

When you scrape together enough courage to post under a single handle, then maybe we can have a discussion.

Until then, crawl back under your rock.

Coward.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8535

Our Apology
By Stephen Berger
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 23, 2003

Following the latest atrocity in Jerusalem, Secretary of State Powell urged the Palestinians to issue some form of denunciation.

Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terror.

Predictably, the Palestinian denunciation later mumbles that they "deplore the murder of civilians on both sides."

Perhaps the Palestinians have a point, and so to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish people:

1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs.

2. All Arab buses blown up by Jews.

3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists.

4. All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903.

5. All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs.

6. All Arabs lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews.

7. All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country.

8. The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - along with the murder of U.S.Marines and diplomatic personnel.

9. All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover.

10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11th and danced in the streets to celebrate the act.

Prof. Stephen Berger works at the Tel Aviv Medical Center.

And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11th and danced in the streets to celebrate the act.

Don't be ashamed. We're only human. Wont do it again
(so blatantly antway) if we have to waste some more sheeple.
How about another loan?

He was in charge of covering up the Me Lai massacre and his son runs the FCC.
HE has a degree in Geology, you know which rocks have oil and which dont.......

"the creation of hamas by the israeli right in sabotage of the peace process and of secular nationalist palestinians,as aptly shown in andromidas' article and as further proven by sharon never targeting hams leader yassin for assassination and letting rantisi flee in order to perpetuate the cycle of violence. "

This nonsense has been refuted, oh, about a dozen times so far in this thread.

The real travesty is that you idiots continue to embarrass yourselfs by insisting on beating a dead horse.

The premise is inane; has been roundly squashed by several people from every angle.

Give it a rest. This one's DEAD.

you people have actually managed to bore me enough into leaving this place. Daveman, Fresca and Jewboy it was an bhonor cursing U out but I need to get back to the real world. I have realised that you people are just too stupid for me to deal with. Every thing that the arabs do is an attrocity and everything that the Israelis do is in retaliation. Keep fooling yourselves and keep trying to fool others. I would have liked to have carried on my discussions with U jewboy but two things and two things only stop me from doing that. Time or lack of and the mere fact that U have too many stupid things to say that need clearing up and I am certainly not bothered by your drivel. Your a nobody and always will be a nobody self righteous prick with a big nose.

To the rest I bid adieu. May God be the judge between us on who is the agressor and the victim. His justice is infinite and it will come soon enough.

you people have actually managed to bore me enough into leaving this place. Daveman, Fresca and Jewboy it was an honor cursing U out but I need to get back to the real world. I have realised that you people are just too stupid for me to deal with. Every thing that the arabs do is an attrocity and everything that the Israelis do is in retaliation. Keep fooling yourselves and keep trying to fool others. I would have liked to have carried on my discussions with U jewboy but two things and two things only stop me from doing that. Time or lack of and the mere fact that U have too many stupid things to say that need clearing up and I am certainly not bothered by your drivel. Your a nobody and always will be a nobody self righteous prick with a big nose.

To the rest I bid adieu. May God be the judge between us on who is the agressor and the victim. His justice is infinite and it will come soon enough. On the Day of Judgement He will decide between the Israelis and the Palestinians. TIll then keep it real. Peace.

I actually wish you'd stick around. You are a perfect example of the young arab stupidity that plagues us all.

Go spread your misinformed hate somewhere else then, if you must.

Unfortunately, you are truly a hateful person of low intelligence so you probably will.

"Your a nobody and always will be a nobody self righteous prick with a big nose. "

Your attempt at even MORE racism (if that's even possible) betrays the most critical element of your delusion.

And that is your illfounded and, frankly, stupid, belief that to defend Israel against subhuman breeders like hamas, one must be Jewsish.

I'm not. Not even close. I just know right from wrong.

THIS ISN'T SOME KIND OF RUSE ON YOUR PART, O arch bigot O-mar. (note: O, mar. Your name befits you.)

What you said reads to me like I've managed to run you out of this thread.

Idiots like yourself reckon God must choose between Israelis and "Palestinians". This offers a fascinating insight into the workings of a Muslim anti-Semite extraordinaire.

The closest thing to the Day of Judgement will occur when the the Arab nations' crude oil pools dry up, then we'll see what detestable racist craphead homunculuses like yourself will say when their buddies at Foggy Bottom won't give a shit about oil interests anymore.

I'll miss your comments for one reason alone: every now and then you've been diverting attention away from the inane balderdash the conspiracy molls, trolls and professional dorks spout here ad infinitum.

You've indeed aptly demonstrated a man is known by the company he keeps. Your thoughts are a pitiful embodiment of moral relativism, "evenhandedness" and pathetic attempts at political correctness. Only a cockhead that you are can produce such intensely loathsome rantings and ravings.

O benighted narrowminded ignoramus dimwit, with his head perpetually up his rear, may peace come to your dark soul. Amen Ve'Amen, Hallelujah

>>"The real travesty is that you idiots continue to embarrass yourselfs by insisting on beating a dead horse."

There's no way to reason with lunatics.

Note how they're now trying to nitpick regarding LaRouche, EIR and those quotes in order to prove me wrong, only to end up further revealing their true anti-Semitic colors.
They are very rabid anti-Semite, pure and simple.

Theirs is an upside down world. They can never grasp the depths of their insanity. They're in this for the business or the job - they're getting paid to upload all their tripe.

Perhaps we should all ignore them by discussing any other topic. Any takers?

"Unfortunately, you are truly a hateful person of low intelligence..."

Unsubstantiated Allegation

Trollmole,
either provide counterarguments to fresca's or shut the fuck up and give O-mar a blowjob.