the people of iraq are free now to do whatever they want they are clearly excersizing their freedoms thease sick people are not to be confused with muslims shiites make up only 8% of the muslim population 1% made up a whole bunch of bull shit and call themselves muslims the other 91% of muslims are sunni and they are truley what islam represents yet the shiites tend to represent the muslim population as a whole and the narrow minded sheep of america tend to beilieve all the bull shit they get in the media well i guess because the shiites are all over the news they represent the muslims now as a whole???????

i got thease pictures from yahoo.com i bet theyll dissapear i about a week so here they are while their hot

please fewl free to comment, but dont make ignorant statements that you cannot back up and dont talk if you do not have room to talk

thank you
IF YOU ARE A SHIITE MUSLIM AND YOU THINK OF YOUR RELIGION OTHERWISE I DARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME!!!!

mkj

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

kinda self explanitory aint it?

Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace.Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace. Islam a religion of Peace.

There. I think I've said it enough times. Is it true now?

No religion is a religion of peace. ALL religions are inherently bad things. We will onyl see peace when the world moves past the God Myth.

Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron. Goomba Johnny is not a moron.

There. I think I've said it enough times. Is it true now?

islam is a religion of peace but people make up their own versions and little rules like elijjah muhammed and the black panthers and how they beilieved that a woman had to be half a man age for them to marry and that all "white people are devils who are going to hell" with all thease versions of islam it became confusing people still cannot distinguish the differece between a "Black Muslim"(title of a person) and a muslim that is black

I AM A SUNNI MUSLIM THOSE PEOPLE IN THE PICTURES ARE SHIITES NOT SUNNIS LETS SEE HOW MANNY TIMES ILL HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF THROUGHT THIS THREAD

the guy in that last picture i put up looks like the dude from system of a down

Dear Jerk-
I'm not sure why you are posting these pictures. You seem to be saying that Shi'ite Muslims are sick because some of them follow traditions that we may think are strange. Do you really want everyone to be just like you?

You probably didn't know but in 1999 the Pope beatified Padre Pio, a Capuchin friar and mystic who died in 1968. "Padre Pio is described as having been a pious youth who regularly fell into "trances" and hallucinating states of altered consciousness. He also developed a habit of self-flagellation, a behavioral phenomenon which some have speculated fuels those altered mental states and creations visions or feelings of wholeness and transcendence."
(from http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/vatican4.htm)

The fact is that all religions and cultures do things that other people, like you, don't understand. Were you to stupid to even do a google search to find out what you are talking about?

Here's some information about self-flagellation, one article about Christianity and one Q & A about the teachings of Islam:




from www.sextreatment.com

MASOCHISM AS A SPIRITUAL PATH
Dorothy C. Hayden, CSW
It has only been in the last hundred years that masochism has been seen as a perversion. When the nineteenth-century psychiatrist Krafft-Ebing placed the term masochism under the rubric "General Pathology" in his famous book "Psychopathia Sexualis", masochism began to get bad press. A few decades later, Freud wrote about masochism as a function of infantile sexuality, incomplete development, stunted growth, and childish irresponsibility. Since then, masochism has been irrevocably allocated to the ghetto of "perversion" and the clinical community has viewed it as a pathological aberration that must be cured.

In the thousands of years before that, however, a masochistic-spiritual connection prevailed throughout most of civilization. Whereas psychology considered masochism as a disease, pre-nineteenth century religion regarded it as a cure. The ancients were in touch with the spiritual, physical and emotional value of masochism. For them, it was an essential part of reality; a combination of the soul in a tortured state, rapturous delight, exquisite pain and unbearable passion that brought them closer to experiencing union with something greater than their individual egos.

In the Western religious tradition, the desire to be beaten and whipped reflected the desire for "penance" which often involved humiliation, shame, pain, worship and submission. In monasteries and churches, bowed heads, bent knees, folded hands, covered heads and full-body prostration reflected the basic masochistic posture. The writers of the New Testament made frequent mention of flagellation and physical pain. The entire "passion play" of Christ, a narrative that has been embedded in our collective psyches for thousands of years, involves bondage, flagellation and crucifixion as part of being subjected to the will of a higher power and the subsequent resurrection to a transcendent consciousness. The Psalmists were in the practice of lashing themselves every day. It was part of the Jewish tradition, 500 years after Christ; to lash one another with scourges after they had finished their prayers and confessed their sins.

Flagellation in monasteries and convents were the order of the day. Saints such as St. William, St. Rudolph and St. Dominic would routinely order their disciples to lash them on bare backs. From flagellating themselves, priests began to flagellate their penitents as part of their penance. It came to be regarded as a necessary act of submission to God. Some holy men maintained that whipping had the power to rescue souls from hell. They believed that humiliation and physical pain provided a way in which one could become fully human.

All of the early Christian orders used flagellation as part of their spiritual discipline. St. Theresa, founder of the Carmelites, used severe flagellation as part of her daily practice. Through the birch and the scourge, she entered into states of ecstatic mysticism. The Carmelite nun, Caterina of Cardona, continuously wore iron chains which cut into her flash. She flogged herself with chains and hooks as often as possible and would sometimes flagellate herself for two or three hours at a time. It was said that through these practices, she was subject to mystical ecstasies and visions of heavenly grace. Similar stories abound among the Franciscans, the Dominicans and the Jesuits. Apparently a heavy dose of masochism was an essential part of Christian monastic life.

In the early eleventh century, monastic hermits in Italy took up the practice of self-flagellation and fled the monasteries to take to the public streets and churches. Called the sect of the Flagellants, and organized by St. Anthony, these monks would work themselves up to frenzied desire and could reach consummation only in torn flesh and self-degradation. The Flagellants marched from one town to the next in procession, picking up new penitents as they passed through. Sometimes numbering in the tens of thousands, they would march to a church, form a circle in front of it, and perform a highly ritualized penitential ceremony. Stripped to the waist, the penitents would chant hymns and prostrate themselves in contrition. The ritual culminated in severe flagellation of all the participants, sometimes lasting for hours. In the end, these gaunt figures, faces pressed to the earth in shame and rapture, their backs beaten to raw meat, their whips dyed blood red, were lifted into ecstasy. It seemed to work a spiritual transformation in those who participated.

Western culture does not have an exclusive hold on the use of subjugation and pain as part of spiritual discipline. Zen Buddhist monasteries are known for the master's use of the rod on disciples and for the Zen "slap" which is said to awaken a person to a higher level of consciousness. Zen students often sit crossed-legged on a cushion for 14 hours a day, seven days a week, submitting themselves to the physical agony of staying completely still in the face of unrelenting pain for long periods of time. Hindu disciples subjugate their wills to the will of the Guru; Tibetan Buddhists unquestionably follow the will of their Lama. An early Tibetan saint, Milarapa, was forced by his prospective teacher to undergo hard, painful and arduous physical labor without questioning the master's will before being accepted as a student.

If, in fact, the history of civilization is filled with stories of a masochistic/spiritual connection, how is it that the masochistic attitude is connected to spiritual transformation? What exactly has been the appeal of masochistic submission to spiritual personages throughout the ages?

One possible answer is that modern society has been heavily influenced by the Horatio Alger "rugged individualism" mentality. The goals of contemporary psychotherapy have been aimed at building strong, coping, rational, problem-solving egos. Take responsibility, Take control. Assert yourself. But at what cost? Building a strong ego is only one side of the coin. To experience the fullness of human experience, we need passivity and receptivity as well as assertion. We need a sense of mystical wonder as well as rational problem solving. We need to be in touch with what the psychoanalyst Carl Jung called "the shadow" -- the weak, limited, degraded, sinful side of ourselves as well as the strong, loving, compassionate, competent side. We need to move out from under the onus of our egocentric way of viewing life; to abdicate control as well as to take it. Masochistic submission, in centering on lack, inadequacy and weakness, puts us in touch with the entirety of our humanity. Full humanity requires surrender to the down side of life as well as the upside.

Religious penitents knew of the soul's need for suffering. They knew that it keeps us from having hubris, or the pride that keeps us in the limited perspective of having too much faith in our competence and abilities. The Christian and Eastern mystics knew that. "Humiliation is the way to humility and without humility, nothing is pleasing to God," says St. Francis of Assissi.

A scene strips the ego of its defenses, ambitions, self-consciousness and successes. The ego become subservient to the master, the dominant, the soul, or God. Whether we call it submission to the dominant or to the will of God, it nevertheless remains submission - one of the hallmarks of the masochistic posture. The masochistic components -- the longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a man, a woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation.

Another similarity between masochism and mystical ecstasy is that both are motivated by the desire for oblivion and liberation; for getting rid of the burden of self with all its conflicts, burdens and limitations. In former, less secular times, this might be called a striving for mystical ecstasy in which the individual is so taken out of himself that his individual identity is extinguished in sublime union with something higher.

In submission, one is taken out of one's personal limitations and transcends social sanctions while at the same time being reduced, weakened and humiliated. With noses pressed against the ever-present reality of human suffering, it is both an agonizing defeat and a magnificent spiritual journey.

Dorothy Hayden, CSW, is a New York-based psychotherapist who specializes in the scene, fetishes and sexual addiction. She received her M.S.W. from New York University and her psychoanalytic training at the Post Graduate Center for Mental Health. She can be reached at dhayden@nyc.rr.com or at 212/673-5717.
................................


From http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00034.html

Salamun Alaykum

Please find below questions on matam and Aza-e-Imam Hussein a.s. to which the reply was kindly provided by Ma'alim Hamid Mavani.

Jazakallah

With Duas and Salaams

Maqbul Rahim
Acting Moderator for ABDG-A


QUESTIONS:

It is my understanding that the act of beating one's self in mourning for Imam Husayn a.s. with blades or otherwise, is allowed in Islam.

Q(a) But when this type of behavior leads non-muslims to believe that the Shi'ah are barbarious and that their religion is based more on emotion than reason, and it confirms their misconception about us that we are fanatics and zealots, can it still be considered allowed?

ANSWER:

A(a) The ritual of self-flagellation as part of the Muharram observances has generated heated discussion amongst the scholars and laity. For instance, around mid 1920's Sayyid Abu-l-Hasan Isfahani in Najaf and Sayyid Muhammad Qazwini in Basra issued legal opinions against this practise. A similar position was taken by Muhsin al-Amin.

They were rebutted by Abd-ul-Husayn al-Hilli and members of the Kashif al-Ghita family. Two issues were of concern for the jurists - one is that this ritual at times led to the loss of human life and second, public perception of Shi'ism. Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Khamena'i made this ritual of qame zadan (hitting the head with a knife) haram by virtue of the harm it does to public image of Shi'ism. Also, Shaykh Shamsuddin and most probably even Ayat. Fadlullah have issued legal opinions similar to Ayat. Khamena'i. However, most of the prominent jurists have a different opinion. For instance, Ayat. Gulpaygani and Ayat. Araki allow the ritual of self-flagellation so long as there is no fear of loss of life or causing injury to any organ of the body. However, Ayat. Gulpaygani states that it is better to avoid this practise based on precaution (ihtiyat).

They all emphasize that the commemmorative mourning ceremonies, that take different forms, must be kept alive to preserve the vitality of the symbol of Imam Husayn (a.s.). In all probability the legal opinions of Ayat. Khui and Seestani on this would be the same as Ayats. Araki and Gulpaygani.


Q(b) Doesn't this type of behavior misguide people from the school of Ahlul-Bayt? If it does, are we responsible for that?

ANSWER:

A(b) If it can be demonstrated to the jurists that it misguides people, then perhaps they would prohibit it.

Q.(c) What are the guidelines of Azaa that the Imams (as) have given us? Have they instructed us to beat ourselves or have they condoned this?

ANSWER:
A(c) The Imams (a.s.) have given very general guidelines to us and that is to mourn for them and show sorrow and grief. These different rituals are human expression of public display of the grief. However, mImam Husayn (a.s.) gave a clear instruction to his sister not to scratch her face or tear apart her clothes.

Q(d) Have any leading mujtahideen ruled on this matter so far.

ANSWER:
A(d) The answer to this question can be obtained from above -A (a).

wa bi-l-laahi-t-tawfiq,

Hamid Mavani

SOURCES: Ayats. Khumayni, Gulpaygani, Khamena'i, Araki "Jadidtarin
Istifta'at ..."
Ja'far al-Khalili, "Hakadha 'araftuhum," 2 vols.
Abu Mikhnaf, "Maqtal al-Husayn."
.....................................................

...practices as barbaric if one looks back into Christian History one may well raise ones eyebrows.

Self Flagellation and other such practices were common in Christendom up until about the 6th Century when the Roman Church was finally able to put a stop to most of it.

islam says that a muslim may NEVER inflict any bodily harm we can even get a tatoo and that link you gave me is a fetish site

Hardly. No latex, whips or dwarfs!
Damn.
Bastard.

That's a bit barbaric but happened this Easter in Mexico.

These pictures look alarming but it's in commemoration of the death in battle of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Muhammad, in 680.

It's a tradition they've been doing every year since then, long before anyone knew America existed.

you said:
"I'm not sure why you are posting these pictures"
well im posting them to show what those sic iraqi shiites are doing and im trying to show that their is a major difference between the sunni muslims and the shiite muslims

you said:
"You seem to be saying that Shi'ite Muslims are sick because some of them follow traditions that we may think are strange"

first of all thats not "some" shiite muslims that do that all shiite muslims do that they beat themselfs nearly to death and most of them go into ecoma i know this because i have seen it and speak for your self when you say "we" because i think i can speak for everyone when i say that those "traditions" are not strange they are barbaric and inhumain you see the picture(2003 pictures not hundreds of years ago) that small boy with his head slit open you call that strange i call it barbaric people are raising law suits againt nike saying they knew of the child labor that is going on in the third world countries look at this

also their is a fine line between self-flaggelation (as your first article points out fasting, and sitting in one place all day) and trying to commit suicide(slashing your wrist or slicing your head) and besides those articles are different those are the past show me something that happend today or 10-20 years ago stuff like that does not happend anymore

and last you said:
"Do you really want everyone to be just like you?"

naw, not really and i dont think i said anything or implied anything of that sort


and next time plz paraphrase articles
peace
mkj

you said:
"I'm not sure why you are posting these pictures"
well im posting them to show what those sic iraqi shiites are doing and im trying to show that their is a major difference between the sunni muslims and the shiite muslims

you said:
"You seem to be saying that Shi'ite Muslims are sick because some of them follow traditions that we may think are strange"

first of all thats not "some" shiite muslims that do that all shiite muslims do that they beat themselfs nearly to death and most of them go into ecoma i know this because i have seen it and speak for your self when you say "we" because i think i can speak for everyone when i say that those "traditions" are not strange they are barbaric and inhumain you see the picture(2003 pictures not hundreds of years ago) that small boy with his head slit open you call that strange i call it barbaric people are raising law suits againt nike saying they knew of the child labor that is going on in the third world countries look at this

also their is a fine line between self-flaggelation (as your first article points out fasting, and sitting in one place all day) and trying to commit suicide(slashing your wrist or slicing your head) and besides those articles are different those are the past show me something that happend today or 10-20 years ago stuff like that does not happend anymore

and last you said:
"Do you really want everyone to be just like you?"

naw, not really and i dont think i said anything or implied anything of that sort


and next time plz paraphrase articles
peace
mkj

I ACCIDENTALLY CLICKED F5 SO THE STRING GOT ATTACHED TWICE

They're commemorating the death of Hussein, grandson of Mohammed in 680. They've been doing that every year since then, long before America was ever heard of.

What would non-Christians think of people being nailed by the hands and feet to planks of wood, a thing which happens in many Catholic countries every year on Good Friday?