US Forces' Use of Depleted Uranium Weapons is 'Illegal'
NEIL MACKAY / Sunday Herald (UK) 30mar03
BRITISH and American coalition forces are using depleted uranium (DU) shells in the war against Iraq and deliberately flouting a United Nations resolution which classifies the munitions as illegal weapons of mass destruction.

DU contaminates land, causes ill-health and cancers among the soldiers using the weapons, the armies they target and civilians, leading to birth defects in children.

Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project -- a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defence with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up -- said use of DU was a 'war crime'.

Rokke said: 'There is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction -- yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'Such double-standards are repellent.'

The latest use of DU in the current conflict came on Friday when an American A10 tankbuster plane fired a DU shell, killing one British soldier and injuring three others in a 'friendly fire' incident.

According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts.

DU has been blamed for the effects of Gulf war syndrome -- typified by chronic muscle and joint pain, fatigue and memory loss -- among 200,000 US soldiers after the 1991 conflict.

It is also cited as the most likely cause of the 'increased number of birth deformities and cancer in Iraq' following the first Gulf war.

'Cancer appears to have increased between seven and 10 times and deformities between four and six times,' according to the UN subcommission.

The Pentagon has admitted that 320 metric tons of DU were left on the battlefield after the first Gulf war, although Russian military experts say 1000 metric tons is a more accurate figure.

In 1991, the Allies fired 944,000 DU rounds or some 2700 tons of DU tipped bombs. A UK Atomic Energy Authority report said that some 500,000 people would die before the end of this century, due to radioactive debris left in the desert.

The use of DU has also led to birth defects in the children of Allied veterans and is believed to be the cause of the 'worrying number of anophthalmos cases -- babies born without eyes' in Iraq. Only one in 50 million births should be anophthalmic, yet one Baghdad hospital had eight cases in just two years. Seven of the fathers had been exposed to American DU anti-tank rounds in 1991. There have also been cases of Iraqi babies born without the crowns of their skulls, a deformity also linked to DU shelling.

A study of Gulf war veterans showed that 67% had children with severe illnesses, missing eyes, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers.

Rokke told the Sunday Herald: 'A nation's military personnel cannot wilfully contaminate any other nation, cause harm to persons and the environment and then ignore the consequences of their actions.

'To do so is a crime against humanity.

'We must do what is right for the citizens of the world -- ban DU.'

He called on the US and UK to 'recognise the immoral consequences of their actions and assume responsibility for medical care and thorough environmental remediation'.

He added: 'We can't just use munitions which leave a toxic wasteland behind them and kill indiscriminately.

'It is equivalent to a war crime.'

Rokke said that coalition troops were currently fighting in the Gulf without adequate respiratory protection against DU contamination.

The Sunday Herald has previously revealed how the Ministry of Defence had test-fired some 6350 DU rounds into the Solway Firth over more than a decade, from 1989 to 1999.

source: http://www.sundayherald.com/32522 31mar03

http://www.disasternews.net/news/news.php?articleid=1687

He laughs when he talks about battlefields contaminated with radioactive waste. He can't stop laughing when he talks about what he claims is a massive government cover-up. And he keeps laughing when he talks about his health problems, which he attributes to deliberate Army negligence, and which will likely kill him.


Talking to Rokke on the telephone is disturbing enough without him laughing about such horrors. A strange echo accompanies every utterance. When this bizarre sound is pointed out to him, Rokke says he isn't surprised: he claims his phone has been tapped for years.


It may be tempting to dismiss Rokke as a crank or a conspiracy theorist, but Rokke is 35-year-veteran of the U.S. Army, and he isn't just a disgruntled grunt. Rokke ran the U.S. Army's depleted uranium project in the mid-90s, and he was in charge of the Army's effort to clean up depleted uranium after the Persian Gulf War. And he directed the Edwin R. Bradley Radiological Laboratories at Fort McClellan, Ala.


Yet if you type Rokke's name into a search engine on any military website, you will draw a blank, as if he doesn't exist.


If you read through hundreds of pages of government documents and transcriptions of countless government hearings regarding the military use of depleted uranium, not once will you come across his name.


That is more than a little unusual, since Rokke and his team were at the forefront of trying to understand the potential health and environmental hazards posed by the use of depleted uranium, or DU, on the battlefield.


"We were the best they ever had," Rokke claims. He's not bragging. He's laughing again.


The use of DU in combat is a fairly new innovation. It was used for the first time in the Persian Gulf War as the crucial component of armor-piercing, tank-busting munitions.


These munitions are tipped with DU darts that ignite after being fired. The shells are so heavy and hot that they easily rip through steel.


"It's like taking a pencil and pushing it through paper," Rokke said.


This uranium "pencil" then explodes inside its target, creating a deadly "firestorm."


As an anti-tank weapon, "these things are great," Rokke said. They enable U.S. troops to quickly take out enemy tanks at long-range.


According to the Web site of the Deployment Health Support Directorate, DU is "a by-product of the process by which uranium is enriched to produce reactor fuel and nuclear weapons components."


In other words, DU is low-level nuclear waste. According to the same Web site, DU can also contain trace amounts of "neptunium, plutonium, americium, technitium-99 and uranium-236."


A total of 320 tons of DU munitions were fired during the Gulf War. Rokke's job was to figure out how to clean up U.S. tanks, the unfortunate victims of "friendly fire," which had been blown apart by DU rounds.


After years of this kind of this work—in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and on practice ranges in the U.S.—Rokke reached a conclusion in 1996.


He told the Army brass that DU was so dangerous that it had to be banned from combat immediately.


That conclusion, Rokke said, cost him his career.


'Contamination was all over'


Burning tanks, burning oil fields, charred bodies.


This was Kuwait after the Gulf War. Rokke had a mission—clean up U.S. tanks contaminated with DU.


What Rokke found terrified him.


"Oh my God is the only way to describe it," Rokke said. "Contamination was all over."


Rokke and his crew were measuring significant levels of radiation up to 50 meters away from affected tanks: up to 300 millirems an hour in beta and gamma radiation, and alpha radiation from the thousands to the millions in counts per minute (CPM) on a Geiger counter.


"That whole area is still trashed," he said. "It's hotter than heck over there still. This stuff doesn't go away." His team took three months to clean up 24 tanks for transport back to the U.S.


The Army, Rokke said, took another three years to fully decontaminate the same 24 tanks. But the contaminated tanks weren't the only problem.


Within 72 hours of their inspections, Rokke and his crew started getting sick.


But they continued with their work. They went back to the U.S. to perform tests on Army bases. They deliberately blew up tanks with DU rounds, then ran over and jumped on the tanks while they were still burning. They videotaped the uranium-oxide clouds pouring out, and they measured the radiation being thrown off.


In the past decade, Rokke said 30 men out of 100 who were closely involved in these operations dropped dead.


Rokke's lungs and kidneys are damaged. He believes that uranium oxide dust is permanently trapped inside his lungs. He has lesions on his brain, pustules on his skin. He suffers from chronic fatigue syndrome. He has reactive airway disease, which means he can't stop wheezing and coughing, and experiences a loss of breath when he exercises. He also has fibromyalgia, a condition that causes chronic pain in his muscles, ligaments and tendons.


The VA tested Rokke for uranium levels in his body in 1994. He got the results back two and a half years later. His urine had 5000 times the amount of permissible uranium.


After years of fighting with the VA, Rokke said he managed to get a 40 percent disability, but there is no official acknowledgement that his illnesses were caused by his work with DU.


The Army and the Pentagon continue to insist that DU is safe. Rokke says they know better, because he gave them the proof. He said they can't find evidence of DU's dangers because "they're looking for the wrong stuff, and they're using the wrong procedures."


The problem with DU, he said, is the stuff that's given off when a round is fired. The projectile begins burning immediately, and up to 70 percent of it oxidizes. This aerosolized power—uranium oxide—is the really dangerous stuff, Rokke said, particularly when it is inhaled.


Rokke insists that he and his men were wearing protective equipment—or equipment they thought would protect them. But their face masks were capable of straining out particles of 10 microns or larger. That's as big as the DU particles get, according to the Army and the Pentagon.


Rokke, however, insists that he has measured particles as small as .3 microns, and that scientists at the Livermore laboratories have measured them as small as .1 micron.


Thus these safety precautions, which are still in place now, are utterly useless, he said.


'I'm a warrior and a patriot'


About one quarter of the 700,000 troops sent to the Persian Gulf War have reported some sort of Gulf War-related illness, and Rokke is convinced that DU has something to do with it, along with the host of other chemicals to which troops were exposed, including low levels of sarin gas, smoke from oil fires, countless pesticides as well as anti-nerve gas tablets which troops were required to ingest.


If Rokke is right about the dangers of DU, why does the Department of Defense continue to use it and insist that it is safe?

"When you go to war, your purpose is to kill," Rokke said, "and DU is the best killing thing we got."


Rokke believes that the U.S. military is putting more emphasis on firepower than on the health and safety of its own troops.


He received a memo in the early 90s he says proves his theory. Dated March 1, 1991, the memo was written by Lt. Col. M.V. Ziehmn at the Los Alamos Laboratories in New Mexico.


"There has been and continues to be a concern regarding the impact of dU [sic] on the environment. Therefore, if no one makes a case for the effectiveness of dU on the battlefield, dU rounds may become politically unacceptable and thus, be deleted from the arsenal," the memo reads. "If dU penetrators proved their worth during our recent combat activities, then we should assure their future existence (until something better is developed) through Service/DoD proponency. If proponency is not garnered, it is possible that we stand to lose a valuable combat capability. I believe we should keep this sensitive issue at mind when after action reports [sic] are written."


The meaning of this memo is quite clear, Rokke said. Since DU munitions are so effective, they must continue to be used in combat, regardless of the environmental or health consequences. The other issue is financial, he said. If the true effects of DU were known, cleanup costs would be absolutely staggering.


DU contaminated areas extend much farther than the Persian Gulf battlefields. Rokke said DU is regularly used in practice maneuvers in the U.S., namely in Indiana, Florida, New Mexico, Massachusetts, Maryland and Puerto Rico. Then there's Kosovo, where DU rounds were used to take out Serbian tanks.


As the U.S. stands on the brink of another war with Iraq, Rokke said he wants to make sure the American public fully understands that this war will be far worse that the last one, and that numbers of troops sickened by DU is likely to be much higher.


Rokke insists he is no pacifist.


"I'm a warrior and a patriot," he said. Given a verifiable threat against the U.S., “I would go to war in a heartbeat."


But he said that he is speaking out for the good of American troops, and for anyone, including Iraqi troops and civilians, who could be exposed to DU.


"Am I pushing for peace today? Yes, I am," he said. Before a war with Iraq can even be contemplated, Rokke said, DU has to be removed from every arsenal in the world.


In order for that to happen, however, the Pentagon would have to admit that Doug Rokke is right, and that would come at a price that no one has even imagined. But money can’t restore the lives of those that Rokke says have died from DU, and money isn’t going to get the uranium oxide out of his lungs. There are people at the Pentagon who understand all this, Rokke claims, and that he deems unconscionable. "

I hope God slam-dunks their butts, because this is absolutely criminal," he said.


Posted December 30, 2002

I have no comprehension how these twits, could do something like this, so awful and stupid. How can it be conceivable to poison a section of our
biosphere for a period of time longer than life has
existed on earth?

Depleted uranium is approximately 40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium.

Excess leukemia incidence among those exposed to radiation (atomic bomb survivors) has been recognized only with doses in the range of 1 Sievert (100 rem) or more to the bone marrow. In the body, uranium concentrates on the bone surface rather than in bone marrow. Under these conditions irradiation of bone marrow by uranium’s alpha particles would be almost impossible. The scenarios for the highest potential exposure to DU in the Gulf War (friendly fire incidents, Level I) had estimated doses in the range of 0.05 Sv (5 rem).

Level I is the highest exposure group, including 102 soldiers in the Gulf War who were in, on, or near combat vehicles at the time they were struck by depleted uranium rounds, and an estimated 30 to 60 soldiers who entered these vehicles immediately afterwards to perform combat rescue. Depleted uranium metal fragments struck a number of soldiers, and some of these still retain embedded depleted uranium fragments. Others inhaled or ingested depleted uranium particles, or had depleted uranium contaminate their wounds. The U.S. Army's Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine preliminary estimate of the highest exposure level were based on test data that assumed two depleted uranium rounds impacted and penetrated the depleted uranium armor of an Abram's heavy armor model tank. The estimated radiation dose was less than the 5 rem per year limit for workers. The theoretical kidney concentration could have exceeded the maximum permissible concentration guideline of 3 µg of uranium per gram of kidney. However, it is unlikely. These highest exposure estimates were based on two perforations of DU armor by 120mm DU rounds. The Department of Defense used the DU on DU exposure data because it had no exposure data on DU rounds penetrating non-DU armor. It should be noted that there were no penetrations of DU armor during the Gulf War and only two Abrams tanks were actually penetrated by two DU penetrators. In addition, the amount of DU aerosol generated by a DU round penetrating a Bradley Fighting Vehicle would be much less than that produced by a DU round penetrating an Abrams tank because the armor of the Abrams tank is harder to penetrate than the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. The Department of Defense used the DU-on-DU exposure data because it had no exposure data on DU rounds penetrating non-DU armor.

The voluntary Veterans Affairs DU Medical Follow-up program remains the most important source for identifying potential untoward health effects in those friendly-fire victims who have retained DU fragments. About a quarter of the over 60 Level I exposed individuals who have been evaluated still carry DU fragments in their bodies, and they have elevated levels of urinary uranium nine years after the Gulf War. The present health status of this cohort shows they have not developed kidney abnormalities, leukemia, bone or lung cancer, or any classical uranium-related adverse outcome.

So you are saying that an increase in background radiation has no ill-effects on human, plant, or animal tissues? Get real. What planet do you live on?

There has been no adequate studies done on the effects of the use of these weapons. Ionic radiation has a detrimental effect on living tissue. DU raises the overal background radiation. If it is ingested, it's effects are increased greatly.

Thank you.

However, you're wasting your breath with the truth. The indy crowd is gonna trot out all the Iraqi deformed babies and Gulf War vets, and start screaming for the head of everyone in the DoD.

Never mind the fact that anywhere else we've used DU (i.e., eastern Europe) has shown no great incidences of birth defects or cancer. We used more DU in Kuwait that in Iraq. No greater incidences of birth defects or cancer.

No, I'm afraid these good folks have swallowed Saddam's claims hook, line, and sinker. He wouldn't allow internationa health professionals into the country to check out the claims. Once the country is stable, and they're allowed in, I expect we'll find the deformations are due to chemical weapons residue. But that'll be the US's fault too; because WE SOLD THEM TO HIM.

Nice try, though, scientist. But they're not interested in facts around here.

Please list case documentation for your
conclusions.

Fox News, buddy. Enough said.

wow
indeed it is.
wow

I find it interesting that the PsyOps people who infest this board are particularly adamant about denigrating anyone who raises the question of the Toxicity of Depleted Uranium (U234 and U235).

So, let’s develop some background. Disinformation is only effective on those not already informed. So I have been doing a little research and will continue to do more as time permits. The following is an excerpt from a Paper Presented to the U.K. House of Commons by Dr. Doug Rokke Ph.D.. (U.S. Army’s former expert on DU. He was sent to the site of Gulf War 1 to assess the Battlefield and Report back on what was needed to clean up the DU used in the War. His report was not to his bosses liking so he was fired for delivering unacceptable conclusions) Later he went public with what he had become aware of in is duties and researches. Like most whistle blowers he has come under severe personal attack, and is in the process of slowly dying himself from exposure to Battlefield toxins he was exposed to; such as DU. (As a side note - the Army has “lost” all of his medical records - and he is not the only one that has happened to.):

“WHAT IS DU?

Depleted uranium is a metal made from uranium hexaflouride which is the by-product of the uranium enrichment process. Depleted uranium is actually the uranium 238 isotope. Natural uranium contains 99.2% by weight U-238 while DU contains 99.8% by weight U-238. Recent documents released by the U.S. Department of Energy provide evidence to suggest that a small proportion of other toxic heavy metals such as plutonium also may be present.

U-238 emits alpha particles at 4.2 Mev and 4.15 Mev that cause significant internal ionization with consequent cellular damage. In addition daughter products emit beta particles and gamma rays that may cause further radiological damage. While DU may not be an external hazard it is an internal hazard and with consequent inhalation, ingestion, and wound contamination poses significant and unacceptable risks. Although, DU is 60 % less radioactive than natural uranium because U-234 and U-235 which emit gamma rays and beta particles have been removed Depleted uranium or uranium 238 is still very dangerous as an internal hazard because the alpha particle emissions are not reduced but proportionally increased. Also spent penetrators or parts of penetrators emit at 300 mrem/ hour and thus cannot be touched or picked up without protection.


WHAT ARE THE PHYSICAL PROPERTIES?

Depleted uranium or U-238 has an atomic mass of 238. Its half-life is 4.468 billion years. It's natural occurrence is 2.1 parts per million. Uranium is silver white, lustrous, malleable, ductile, and pyrophoric. This makes DU an ideal metal for use as kinetic energy penetrators, counterweights, and shielding or armor. High density and pyrophoric (catches fire) nature are the two most significant physical properties that guided its selection for use as a kinetic energy penetrator.


WHERE DOES DU COME FROM?

Uranium hexaflouride is the non-fissionable residue or by-product of the uranium enrichment process during which fissionable Uranium 235 and Uranium 234 are separated from natural uranium. Depleted uranium is refined from Uranium Hexaflouride (UF6). The United States Department of Energy has so much UF6 stored at various sites that any use that increases disposal of this waste product is welcome. Consequently economic recovery may supersede health and environmental concerns.”(1.)

I find it interesting that they use basically the same tactics as were used by Government Shills who tried to defuse the problem of the toxicity of Agent Orange and the effects it had on many Vietnam Veterans. Basically it is deny, deny deny, denigrate the victims, and then deny some more. Rarely will you see them cite any specifics beyond vague references to either suspect government sources (and all government sources must be treated as suspect as they are interested parties and have a proven history of lying on such issues).

Here’s an excerpt from an L. A. Tiimes Piece by Dan Fahey from the Sunday February 18th 2001 Edition:

“Dr. David McClain, the military's top depleted-uranium researcher, told a presidential committee investigating Gulf War illnesses in 1999 that "strong evidence exists to support [a] detailed study of potential DU carcinogenicity." A separate Army-funded study conducted by the Lovelace Respiratory Research Institute in Albuquerque, N.M., found that depleted uranium caused cancer when implanted in laboratory animals. While Fletcher Hahn, a senior scientist at Lovelace, cautioned about applying the findings to human beings, he also called the study "a warning flag that says we shouldn't ignore this."

Despite the military's own research, however, in recent weeks Pentagon spokesmen have dismissed concerns about depleted uranium as unscientific hysteria and propaganda. For example, Army Col. Eric Daxon recently attributed concerns about depleted uranium to "a purposeful disinformation campaign" by the Iraqi government. Yet, the Army anticipated the current controversy even before the war against Iraq. A July 1990 report from the U.S. Army Armament, Munitions and Chemical Command predicted that, "Following combat, the condition of the battlefield and the long-term health risks to natives and combat veterans may become issues in the acceptability of the continued use of DU [ammunition] for military applications." The report added that depleted uranium is "linked to cancer when exposures are internal."
Link to full article: http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du9.htm

Interesting. While this moves into the realm of speculation to some degree, and I am just theorizing, but there has got to be something about the issue that they find particularly Radioactive. The issue of DU is explosive, particularly given the recent U.S. led invasion which many believe to have been a War Crime in and of itself. However, if it were shown that DU is an environmental toxin, a nondiscriminate weapon affecting civilians as readily as opposing combatants then it becomes clear cut - it’s use alone constitutes a War Crime under the Geneva Conventions to which the U.S. is Signatory. To make it stark Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et. al., would be subject to trial for War Crimes. So, it is clear why they would have the motivation, even desperation, to deny any health hazards from it’s use.

One of the disinformation lines used by the PsyOps/PR Shills is that “all of the so-called bad effects are limited to a “few” American Gulf War Vets who are delusional or to Saddam Hussein’s PR machine”. Which is patently false. There have been a good number of reports from out of the Kosovo area where the U.S. and U.K. heavily used DU weapons.
Here’s a link to a CNN article about affects on Italian Troops in Kosovo: http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du11.htm

This Post is a work in progress so as I accumulate more data I’ll update it and repost it. I just wanted to get this much up for the time being as a bit of a counterbalance against the shrill wailing of the Shills.

Useful Links for further Reading:

References and useful Links for further reading:
1.Depleted Uranium Uses and Hazards: http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/rokke/rokke.htm
Dr. Doug Rokke’s Address to the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition 17th Annual Leadership Breakfast: http://sftimes.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$61
3. Los Alamos Memo: http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc1.html
4. Defense Nuclear Agency Memorandum: http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc2.html
5. The War Against Ourselves: Interview with Dr. Doug Rokke:http://www.futurenet.org/25environmentandhealth/rokke.htm
6. CounterPunch: http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc2.html
Depleted Uranium Education Project: http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/du.htm
7. Pentagon Study Called Fabrication: http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du7.htm

Your post is too much for my conservative little mind to take in.

Explain why DU only affects the offspring of people who oppose us politically, and not our allies, and then you'll have a teensy tiny argument - maybe.

But probably not.

Maybe because we don't bomb the hell out of our allies? Simon, have you ever tried thinking?

...there are other opinions.

NATO says the new report by the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) on depleted uranium (DU) munitions in Kosovo "adds to the existing and growing body of independent evidence" that such munitions "have not been responsible for any ill-health in KFOR/SFOR personnel or civilians in the region." http://www.usembassy.it/file2001_03/alia/a1031306.htm

World Health Organization and other scientific research studies indicate that exposure to trace amounts of depleted uranium poses no serious health risks.

Scientific evidence does not indicate that depleted uranium has affected the health of Gulf War veterans. Nor has there been any scientific research indicating depleted uranium causes birth defects.

There have been no independent studies related to depleted uranium inside Iraq. Since 1991, Iraq has refused to allow health inspectors to assess the alleged impact of depleted uranium.

Iraqi military use of chemical and nerve agents in the 1980s and 1990s is a likely cause of birth defects among Iraqi children. http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_10/alia/a2100703.htm

Are NATO and WHO paid shills, Diogenes, or are they Brown Shirts? Which of your favorite slogans are they?

...is time stamped exactly 7 minutes after my original post and is not the first comment on it.

So, do the math. He did not bother to actually read it or any of the references.

PR, PR, PR, DISINFORMATION.

...did someone on the staff at Langely have that written and prepped for you.

I know you did not research and write it in 8 minutes.

More DISINFORMATION.

Hoo Boy they do not want people becoming honestly informed on this one.

Judging by the fast reaction they are running scared that the lid is going to blow off.

After all they are already being accused of War Crimes. Add DU and they are ready for "Nuremberg II The Bush Swings".

...can you say "bookmarks"?

You are pretty darned funny, y'know?

"...they are running scared that the lid is going to blow off."

Psst...you don't matter enough to justify your paranoia.

So what if Simon didn't read your links? We've all seen the scaremongering dark conspiracy stuff before. Yawn.

What hypocrisy. These buffoons from the retarded right expect you to read their links, yet they say "so what?" when they don't read yours. Typical.

...I've seen it all before.

I repeat: yawn.

Way to go, daveman. Whenever we conservatives don't have a valid argument, we can always just sit there and yawn. Great job!

...it is people becoming informed that your side fears the most. I am merely one of the messengers. However, I do thank you for the complement - as your rapid response and incidental adhominem attack attest to.

However, knowledge is a powerful thing, as I am sure your people at Langely have taught you, and when public knowledge on this subject reaches "critical mass", as it did with Agent Orange, then it becomes too powerful to hold back.

Would you like reserved seating to Nuremberg?

Notice the tactic in the following. When you can't refute the data, or out argue your opponent in a debate, it is great PR Shill form to accuse your opponent of some undesirable characteristic i.e., "paranoia" or the ever popular "conspiracy theorist". Recognize the tactic for what it is: An attempt to make you not look by assigning an undesirable label to anyone who approaches the subject matter, it could be any subject, from an angle other than the approved "Party Line".


""...they are running scared that the lid is going to blow off."

Psst...you don't matter enough to justify your paranoia.

So what if Simon didn't read your links? We've all seen the scaremongering dark conspiracy stuff before. Yawn."

Notice the comment: "We've all seen the scaremongering dark conspiracy stuff before."

Does this mean they actually have read it? No. It means they don't want you to read it.

Please refer to my earlier post with quite a few good links they don't want you to read.

P.S. 911 - What Really Happened? Why no honest non-partisan investigation? Why limit the investigation only to the subject of "Intelligence Failures? Would a wider net catch the wrong fish?

yawn yawn and big stretch and yawn again, Diogenes.

You don't answer questions. You only spew remarkable amounts of 'evidence' which strangely all lead to Leftists with axes to grind.

We fired more DU in Kuwait than in Iraq during the First Gulf War. The Kuwaitis seem not to mind so much. The Iraqis are apparently contracting luekemia at an astonishing rate. Explain the difference.

If we accept as fact that DU is hazardous, then the country which saw the superior amount of DU expended should see a proportionately higher incidence of DU poisoning. But this is not the case.

We must therefore look at the reason why we see such a high degree of sensitivity to DU in Iraq and such a low level of sensitivity in Kuwait. The reason? DU is not harmful. The only people affected by it are the hothouse tomatoes of the internet Leftist community.

"DU is not harmful." That's a remarkable conclusion, especially since you provided no documentation.

WHO CARES IF AMARICA USES DEPLEETED URAMIUN TO SMITE OUR FOS IN IRAQISTAN!!!!

DU IS GODE!! IT HAS GRATE PENATRATON POWOR!!!

WHO CARES IF IT IS THE SAME AS LOW LEVAL NOOK IN IRAQ!!!

AMARICA!!!

AND A BIG YAWN TO THOSE WHO TRY TO BRING UP ANYTHING TO THE CUNTRERY!!!

obviously believe that they are beyond the laws of physics (and human rights, and jurisprudence, and common sense, and basic economics, as well.)

Notice Psymon's post above that he does not say he has read any of the documentation in my prior detailed Post. Instead he paints with broad vague generalities like: "You only spew remarkable amounts of 'evidence' which strangely all lead to Leftists with axes to grind. "

Here's a quote from the earlier post which he deperately does not want anyone to actually read:

“Dr. David McClain, the military's top depleted-uranium researcher, told a presidential committee investigating Gulf War illnesses in 1999 that "strong evidence exists to support [a] detailed study of potential DU carcinogenicity." A separate Army-funded study conducted by the Lovelace Respiratory Research Institute in Albuquerque, N.M., found that depleted uranium caused cancer when implanted in laboratory animals. While Fletcher Hahn, a senior scientist at Lovelace, cautioned about applying the findings to human beings, he also called the study "a warning flag that says we shouldn't ignore this."

The Government's own expert. A flaming leftist? Based on what Psymon? Have you read his "Political Works"? Have you read any of his Scientific Works?

And Leftists arrogate to themselves knowledge of things of which they haven't the slightest understanding.

I have handled DU rounds. Have you?

I have fired them, and I have been around hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers who have fired them in combat.

So, what exactly is your expertise, Mr. Milton?

You've handled DU? Oh, that explains your mental malfunction.

...PROVE IT. Talk is cheap and I put plenty of references in my prior detailed post based on the commentary of actual Scientists expert in the area.

Anecdotal commentary without any provable facts to back it up is just hot air. And rather smelly at that. To quote George Carlin: "Your breath is so bad you could knock a Buzzard off a' Shit Wagon".

Psymon you are a disinformationist who has no facts, no reason, and no case.

I would again point everyone interested back up to my earlier detailed post which Psymon and his brothers in Lies would have you not look at.

George Carlin is a pinko.

Diogenes, I suggest you refrain from distemper. Your argument is weak as is without your getting hysterical.

As you may know, I was an M1 Abrams tank commander for 18 months. During that time I fired live ammunition - both HEAT and APFSDS-T (Sabot). The Sabot rounds I fired were both DU and non-DU. My associates in the Army are veterans of the first Gulf War. They fired DU in anger, and were around the vehicles that were the recipients of this anger.

On a related subject, the Army's expert, Dr. McClain said the following:

"strong evidence exists to support [a] detailed study of potential DU carcinogenicity"

Which in English means: This stuff MIGHT cause cancer.

Which makes it as dangerous as saccarine.

That is right, you losers.

As Simon says, DU might cause cancer, which in all likelihood it does--which is good. America needs to show the world that it doesn't need to care or take anyone's crap.

Libs and people like Simon try to moralize about the US, but that's silliness. There is nothing moral about being on top. We are powerful, and that's all that matters. If we decide to nuke Iraq, whether with DU or proper ICBMs, so be it. That's what they get when they mess with the Big Dog.

Simon tries too hard when he should just admit that DU is as bad as anyone claims it to be (that's why when the military trains with it they use protective suits, and why over 200K US vets from Gulf War I have the GWS), but that this is IRRELEVANT. We use it becuase we can.

The rest of the world needs to shape up and beware of America, or they too will feel the wrath.

What it means is we need more HONEST study of the effects of DU.

Minimally we know that DU is a Heavy Metal with inherent toxicity merely on that aspect. Any question of toxicity from long term exposure is not fully proved but studies have shown that even low level exposure, over time, has deleterious health effects. That is old science and is not disputed by any reputable researcher.

Refer to the links in my earlier post including the complete article from which the quote was taken.

You must have passed 100,000 RPM by now.

I am in agreeance with Diogenes' last comment on this subject. To look at the whole issue, we've got conflicting reports and studies on both sides. Each seems to favor it's own point of view, much like polls can be manipulated to project in your best interests. So, how do you fix it? How do you develop a study that holds enought water for both sides to agree on as valid? I don't know. Maybe a completely disinterested party needs to do some research on the subject over a long period of time and reach some conclusions. Pretty vague huh? Meanwhile, people may or may not be dying by the usage of dU.

I have very little knowledge of the subject so, I am speaking soley from gut instict that it just seems like playing with something like dU cannot be a good thing. Diagones brought up an interesting reference to "agent orange". Suggesting that once credible research was done that everyone could agree on after a "critical mass", it was in fact determined that the stuff was toxic and should not be used.

In essence, we need the studies to catch up to the media and resistance against using the stuff to really put some weight behing the stopping of usage of dU.

And, I would have to agree that whatever the cost, if it is determined that dU is dangerous, our government should spare no expense to clean up the mess it's made. Lesson: Do the research before empoying such weapons, it will be much cheaper and save lives in the long run.

Footnote:
This rings a bell about other products that were, or are in protest about their toxicity and eventually were shown to in fact be deadly. ex. asbestos, lead based paints, tobacco products!!!

Think about it!!!

Come on, what do you all think?

. . . with you, Brian! I also am not completely familiar with DU and it's toxicity. I also find myself confused by the conflicting reports on its safety and wish there was some way a completely objective study could be done so we could finally know the truth.

...and I see we've been busy.

Pretty much everything is toxic or will cause cancer, given sufficient dosage.

i expect the truth about DU lies somewhere between the safe-as-saccarine and Satan's Toenail Clippings positions. Diogenes and Brian are right; more studies, by disinterested third parties, need to be done.

But discontinuing the use of DU rounds immediately will have an immediate impact on the health of a group of people...tankers. No other material comes anywhere near the armor and armor-piercing characterists of DU. To stop using it, especially now in a shooting war, will give the bad guys a chance to shoot back. As Simon can tell you, DU means one target, one round.

WIll you marry me Anastasia? Assuming you're a female?

. . . I don't know if that will ever happen. It seems like it's extremely difficult for people to be objective about certain issues. Sometimes, it means you have to swallow your pride and admit that you were wrong. Just from reading this site, I've already seen many examples of people not wanting to bend one bit, even if their argument is fundamentally flawed.

Maybe it could happen, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

"After years of this kind of this work—in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and on practice ranges in the U.S.—Rokke reached a conclusion in 1996.


He told the Army brass that DU was so dangerous that it had to be banned from combat immediately.


That conclusion, Rokke said, cost him his career. "

But, I'm already married:-( Flattered, though!

Okay, you lost, you were all wrong. Operation Iraqi Freedom was a complete success and the Iraqi people are now free to choose their own government. This war is over so I can't understand why you are all still bitching around about it. Our troops are still there now only to provide security to the Iraqi people. They will leave once a government is established and the streets are taken over by the Iraqi police to maintain security. As for the shooting the other day, they were being fired upon and only opened fire to protect themselves. If you peace pussys ever got into a physical fight in your life, you might understand that you have a a right to self defense, you don't just stand there and let the other guy beat the shit out of you. Anyway, thank god the war is over. You guys are just pissed off that nothiing went wrong. You were probably standing around hoping that a civilian target would have gotten hit so it would help out your cause. Fucking hippies, you are the worst kind of people in the world, to act like you are against something, but to not have the understanding that you are indirectly supporting Saddam and hopeful for Iraqi civilian deaths. You can deny it, but I anyone with half a brain can see it. A few Iraqis die in an issue of self defense and you are all over it trying to say that we are slaughtering the Iraqi people. I only hope and pray that your wishes never come true. God Bless America and the people of Iraq and may we both live in peace.

If all else fails start a diversionary argument with an inflammatory attact completely off the point.

I would suggest starting at the top of the Thread Read the article and then read down. You can see how desperate the Shills are to bury this topic.

You want to be told you're right?

You want us all to bow down and worship the Mighty Diogenes and his Big Honkin' Wisdom?

You are so insufferably pompous and patronizing. I'm terribly glad i don't know you personally, so I wouldn't have to go to the trouble of snubbing you in person.

News flash, Skippy: You don't know everything. Every source you cite is not credible. Your opinions are not fact.

Get over yourself, and get off your moral high horse. It's looking pretty lame.

...his hand at starting a diversion and avoid the articles and postings at the head of this thread.

Go back and read the lead article on the thread.

Then work your way down.

It is like a school on how a professional disinformation team works.

analysis Daveman. Once again you prove how intelligent you are.

Here catch some DU...it's harmless right?

...and his Big Honkin' Wisdom (TM)!

Just promise me you'll use your powers only for Good.

Uh, in case you didn't get it, Diogenes, I don't care what you think. So a disinformation campaign would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?

For the people who like them.
Total criminal irresponsibility to contaminate with this material now expanding areas of slow death. Clean up? How?.
Then we have idiots, madmen and their cheerleaders playing semantic games while the world dies.

>Then we have idiots, madmen and their cheerleaders playing semantic games while the world dies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole world's just gonna blow up tomorrow.

Just because the half-life has gone does not mean the substance no longer a source of ionizing radiation.

"Radiation intensity from a radioactive source diminishes with time as more and more radioactive atoms decay and become stable atoms. Half-life is the time after which the radiation intensity is reduced by half. This happens because half of the radioactive atoms will have decayed in one half-life period. For example a 50 Bq radioactive source will become a 25 Bq radioactive source after one half-life. "

Table 1
Radioactive Decay

Number of half-lives elapsed


0 half lives elapsed 100 %
1 50
2 25
3 12.55
4 6.25
5 3.125

www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/ionizing.html

After only 9 Billion years ( the sun will be a red giant
in the main sequence and the earth will be gone) we will
only have 25% of the original radiation level? Wonderful.
We still have the daughter isotopes to consider.
Can we have a Mt. Stupid for these individuals’ faces to be carved into?

Let's all just sit around the TV and chant while watching "Dr. Strangelove" and weep for tomorrow.

... davie baby you are being disengenous again.

"Uh, in case you didn't get it, Diogenes, I don't care what you think. So a disinformation campaign would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?"

This would affect me how?

The point is davie baby is that you are playing to the gallery.

And you cannot be me in an honest debate so the only way you can follow your PR SPIN Marching Orders is to try to discredit my arguments through subterfuge.

It is my goal in life to be one of your burdens. Indirectly of course.

here is an MSDS for uranium....and guess what....? IT'S TOXIC!

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/u4500.htm

one for DU...and guess what...? IT'S TOXIC!


http://www.varian.com/onc/shared/msds/depleteduranium.pdf

This is insanity.
You humans are losing your survival instincts.
Where ya gonna go? Mars?
Oh. Another link
http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/bein/saga1.htm

":And you cannot be(sic) me in an honest debate"

That's sorta nonsense, don't you think? Especially considering you always dissapear as soon as the refutation of your "theories" commences. You haven't entered into an ongoing debate since I got here.

Go for it. Bump around untill you find a door.
Still a little early isn't it?

In case you have forgotten, DU is a less radioactive form of uranium. And guess where uranium comes from. THE EARTH. So don't worry so much about uranium being here on earth. That's where it's always been.

After intensive refinement we get this heavy metal at high expense from thousands of tons of rock mostly deep in the ground.
Excellent idea, now lets separate and recombine it back into the rock and put it all back in the ground.

Sorry, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. I get my news from Fox.

A bit from the link I posted which is this:
http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/bein/saga1.htm
***
Presently, while the anti-DU types are having the ball of their lives,
Pentagon and NATO PsyOp and Special Operations are becoming
desperate, despite vigorous and frantic efforts. They are seemingly
unable to stop the steamroller of public outrage, as the naked DU truth
surfaces daily for a third week in a row. Let’s hope that it means a
good start of the new millennium for humanity and an unforgettable
lesson for the military-government-industrial-information complex.
***
Can’t these roach droppings see that they are endangering even their own progeny in their gated estates?

The US Armed Forces really helps General Electric and others get rid of their radioactive waste too. It's much too dangerous to store in the US so lets make bullets out of it and shoot it at foreigners in their own countires.

It may have come from the Earth (like uh, duh, everything else) but now its in American weapon magazines.

GE We bring bad things to the cradle of civilization for lots of unending carcoinomas and death.

We are here as liberators.

Pay no attention to those leukemia rates behind the curtain.

I am oil...I am ...a hero...I am your leader.

Oh well. I guess I am just a big... ???

{{{Let's send Bush to World Court to stand trial for war crimes. If he did not know that DU is a radioactive weapon whose danger will long outlive his own putrid existence than he is not fit to be president.}}}

Fool me once, shame...shame on...you, .....................fool me --- can't get fooled again!

When americans enter in Iraq they check the oil and water and accordingly to them they didnt found high leval of radiation in Iraq , but a lot of people why work in Iraq when return have incrised leval of desise m, specialy the disise of Hematopoetic cell/ like difrent form of cancers and increse leval of A, B, C type of Leucemia /
These is not a fiction radiaton is in our homes
Rober Denovski

When americans enter in Iraq they check the oil and water and accordingly to them they didnt found high leval of radiation in Iraq , but a lot of people why work in Iraq when return have incrised leval of desise m, specialy the disise of Hematopoetic cell/ like difrent form of cancers and increse leval of A, B, C type of Leucemia /
These is not a fiction radiaton is in our homes
Rober Denovski  function MM_swapImgRestore() { //v3.0 var i,x,a=document.MM_sr; for(i=0;a&&i0&&parent.frames.length) { d=parent.frames[n.substring(p+1)].document; n=n.substring(0,p);} if(!(x=d[n])&&d.all) x=d.all[n]; for (i=0;!x&&i function MM_openBrWindow() { //v2.0 _winName = "MehrNews"; _info = "toolbar=yes,location=no,directories=no,status=yes,menubar=no,center=yes,scrollbars,resizable=yes,dependent,height=600,width=650,title=dsfg"; urlLoc = "NewsPrint.aspx?NewsID=" + document.all["lblNewsID"].innerText; window.open(urlLoc,_winName,_info); } // MM_openBrWindow function function MM_openMailWindow() { //v2.0 _winName = "MehrNews"; _Width = 518; _Height = 470; _WinX = (document.body.offsetWidth - _Width ) / 2; _WinY = (document.body.offsetHeight - _Height ) / 2; //alert(_WinX + "-->" + _WinY); _info = "toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status=yes,menubar=no,center=yes,scrollbars,resizable=yes,left=" + _WinX +",top=" + _WinY +",dependent,height=" + _Height + ",width=" + _Width; urlLoc = "EmailNews.aspx?NewsID=" + document.all["lblNewsID"].innerText; window.open(urlLoc,_winName,_info); } // MM_openBrWindow function

Home Page Culture Social Economic Political International Sport Photo      About Us      Contact Us      Feedback	Advanced Search» Daily News Archive» Tehran:20:03,2006/11/08 Tehran: 21:18 ,  2004/04/27 Print version    Email this to a friend U.S. Use of Depleted Uranium Weapons Causes Dangerous Rise in Radiation Level in Iraq TEHRAN, April 27 (MNA) – Canadian research centers have reported that during the war against Iraq the U.S. military used depleted uranium (DU) weapons which caused the radiation level to rise at least 300 times above normal, and the weapons caused similar effects in Afghanistan. U.S. troops have recently begun removing contaminated topsoil in Iraq, taking it to an unknown location.   Scientists believe the next generation of children of citizens of both countries exposed to DU will suffer from higher rates of birth defects and cancer.   The Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) issued a report based on a 13-day survey throughout the primary conflict zones in urban and rural areas of central and southern Iraq on October 2003, according to Risq News.   The team performed radiation surveys, nuclide analysis, interviewed civilians and community leaders, collected biological and field samples, and investigated the possible health effects of depleted uranium contamination on Iraqi civilians.   According to the report, the U.S. has used uranium oxide deposits as strong explosives in common and fire bombs.   The most disturbing circumstance was observed in the U.S. occupied base in southwestern Baghdad in the Auweirj district. It is close to the international airport and hosts one of the largest coalition bases around Baghdad, occupying the operational headquarters of the Iraqi Special Republican Guard. The area was subject to considerable aerial bombing and rocket fire prior to the coalition ground forces' arrival followed by several ground skirmishes along the main routes to the international airport and western entrances to the city.   Departing the coalition-occupied base was a long, a steady stream of tandem-axle dump trucks carrying full loads of sand, heading south away from the city. Returning from the south was a second stream of fully loaded dump trucks waiting to enter the base. As the team passed the base’s main entrance, the gates were opened to reveal bulldozers spreading soil while front-end loaders were filling the trucks that had just emptied their loads of soil (silt and sand). The arriving trucks were delivering loads of sand into the base while the departing trucks were hauling away the base’s topsoil.   The method of topsoil removal and replacement at U.S.-occupied bases, living facilities, and administrative buildings is mechanically resuspending tons of potentially contaminated particulate. The dust clouds are lofting above and spreading over the entire area -- 5,000,000 residents in Baghdad alone. It is also exposing thousands of U.S. military personnel and the many frequent foreign visitors including NGO staff, reconstruction crews, business and trade delegates, and diplomatic and foreign service employees.   It’s not just UMRC that has reported the high level of radiation in Iraq, many American journalists and researchers have also confirmed the reports.   The situation in Afghanistan is worse, with tests showing even higher levels of radiation than Iraq.   Soldiers in Desert Storm (Persian Gulf War I) knew the danger of uranium toxicity from U.S. and British ordnance, and many believe that Gulf War syndrome is caused by exposure to depleted uranium.   At a recent international conference on uranium contaminated weapons held in Hamburg, Germany, researchers and witnesses from the U.S., Britain, Canada, Italy, Japan, Greece, Spain, Iraq, and Afghanistan presented various types of undeniable evidence and documents to illustrate the connection between depleted uranium and Gulf War syndrome.   HL/HG End   MNA 73958
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When americans enter in Iraq they check the oil and water and accordingly to them they didnt found high leval of radiation in Iraq , but a lot of people why work in Iraq when return have incrised leval of desise m, specialy the disise of Hematopoetic cell/ like difrent form of cancers and increse leval of A, B, C type of Leucemia /
These is not a fiction radiaton is in our homes
Goran Popovski