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excelent article

by irpy Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 12:25 PM

well worth a read.

If Bush "wins" and kills people to take out Saddam and installs "democracy." What to do?

How does any postwar "left" define itself? What are our best hopes for a post-war Iraq? What is our definition of what the best-worst case scenario for a post-war iraq? What do we demand of a reconstructed Iraq so as to limit the negative blowback AND give the post-war middle east a hope against hegemony. What about in Iraq?

In addition, how do we successfully triumphant calls to the media? How can we hold Bush's feet to the fire and get accross a message that the -----(probable death of thousands, installation of a puppet regime?) is a success?

Unless magic happens in the region, we have to strategize against the probable disaster.
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don't understand you people....

by uTd Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 12:47 PM


what are you two talking about?

do you think this is a game or something? millions and millions are pouring into the streets because they know it's not a game.

who is ever prepared for MASSIVE VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION?

you think a quick military victory should be something other than a nightmare? as a pro-war person pointed out on this board the other day: the "twin towers" got knocked down during a time of "peace". how long will it take for this to sink in?

the so-called "peace" that you are forecasting will be even crazier than the "peace" was last time.
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Still Losing In Afghanistan

by History Buff Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 12:49 PM

the U.S. lost in Vietnam, didn't really win in Gulf War I, is still losing in Afghanistan, and couldn't even find aging old Osama with a bad kidney. Iraq won't be any different.
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won't be different, but...

by irpy Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 2:33 PM

your right, it probably won't be different.

It would be different if the uniquely large anti-war movement were able to actually get this "truth that WE know" to a larger community.

It would also be different if after a probable tragedy, the anti-war groups were able to push a progressive agenda at home and abroad and in the rebuilding of Iraq.

What is different is this anti-war movement and its present ability to push its truth so far into the mainstream media.
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Lost?

by Scottie Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 4:06 PM

We lost in afganistain? were we watching the same war? we lost gulf war 1?
OK i can accept that we may have "lost the peace in the gulf war" but we certainly didnt loose the war. it is therefore the sanction and the conditions after the war which we "lost" and even that is debatable.
as for afganistain - we could go home now and claim victory - binladin isnt really all that important. we have smashed his organization and his main suporter country. That is the lesson we had to teach and its already been done.
Vietnam - - even then lost is a odd term. have you ever read the casualty statistics? Our other option was of course to have surrendered vietnam to them without a fight so basically the score card is
No fighting : comunists have vietnam easy fight very confidentlets try thailand next..
Fighting: comunists have vietnam - very tired seemingly had their military inferiority shoved down their throats (the fact that you can sacrifice a million solders to get a little bit of territory doesnt mean you are militarily superior).
vietnam may or may not have been worth it for the usa but i dont think it was worth it for the chineese.
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Contingencies Must be Worked On.

by Diogenes Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 4:21 PM

What if Bush does get his War?

I have maintained all along that he will do it regardless. Nevertheless, I support the protests against the war as a valid and necessary way to demonstrate that support for this evil incursion is anything but unanimous.
It demonstrates just how corrupt our Government has become.

The U.S. will win a “military victory” in any conceivable scenario. Iraq cannot win against U.S. Forces. It will be a slaughter. This fact must be made clear publicly and often.
Accurate counts of how many thousands of civilian Iraqi’s die in this Imperial adventure must be made and disseminated widely.

Demands that the Bush Administration justify the massive, and it will be massive, loss of innocent life. It will be far in excess of anything Saddam has done to his own people.

For those of us who oppose this war because we see the underlying corruption that is motivating it we need to be prepared to clarion loudly key data:

1. Who gets the Oil?
With this must go demands that Bush’s Cronies do not.

2. How much it actually cost.
This must be disseminated widely with demands to show how this money spent in these great sums provides any benefit to the average American.

3. How it has destroyed U.S. diplomacy and Good Will around the World. And it will. The U.S. Foreign Policy is shifting openly to a policy of fear and intimidation.

4. The thousands of deaths in Iraq must be tied around Bush’s Neck like a Boat Anchor. And people must persist in bringing it up constantly.

5. Any War Crimes must be documented and laid at the feet of the Bush Junta.

6. The facilitators of this war - the major Networks, Clear Channel Communications (henceforth War Channel Communications) must be held to account by constantly attacking their profitability by actively boycotting advertisers - and making known to those advertisers that you will not do business with them as long as they Advertise on War Channel Communications Stations. The cost must be made real to them. This is not limited to just Rush Limbag - but all of the War Channel Operators, Glen Dreck (Beck), Mike Gallagher and others.

7. We must be prepared for another Fake Terrorist Attack to be used as justification for the Patriot II elimination of Civil Liberties and ability to dissent without having Secret Police knocking your door down at 3 A.M..

I’m sure there is more we can do, but I just thought I would throw this up on the wall and see what resonates with people.


VIVA LA RESISTANCE’!
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2 cents

by Sheepdog Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 5:01 PM

We sure lost the Viet Nam war to win the 'hearts and minds'
of the people. We did destroy a culture older the the
pyramids of gentle beautiful people and turned the rice
bowl of the world into a cratered hell that has to import most of its food now.
We destroyed our economy we destroyed many of my friends
who drank or drugged themselves to death, after they came home, we lost our self-respect.
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Oh

by Sheepdog Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 8:07 PM

Sorry, I was reminiscing.
One very important point you brought up, Diogenes; the bit about the
future ‘event’ that is certainly planned for the sheep. One thing you can always count on. If it works it will be tried again.
This is why it is so important to reveal WHAT REALLY HAPPENED and to
consider the war as a secondary front.
This also addresses the scenario posted at the top of this thread. I saw a
sign on the window of a van that read ‘9 11 what really happened ?’
Someone is listening out there. We need them in more windows and
lawns and even perhaps sky writing. Once burned twice shy.
Get the word out people, this is life or death not only for the people in Iraq.
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Agreed...

by Diogenes Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 8:53 PM

...we must keep pounding home the anomalies of 911 and the liklihood that if they think that they can get away with it they will do it again. And probably it will be bigger next time - the better to stampede the herd into surrendering their freedom for illusory security.

"We're the Wolves; we'll protect you." "From who?" "The Wolves"

One of the most effective ways I have found to get people thinking is to just put on the table a couple of the easier to digest questions such as:

If they could have 2 F-15's alongside Golfer Payne Stewart's Jet 10 minutes after it lost contact how come they could not stop 4 Jumbo Jets in nearly 2 hours?

How come there is no video security tape of any of the 19 named terrorists getting onto any of the flights? Every other passenger is on tape.

Do you find it believable that someone who had never flown ANY JET could take a Jumbo Jet into a tight spiral and descend 7000 feet in 2 minutes, level off at treetop height, and then hit dead center a 71 foot high wall? (As a sidenote - all of the Top Brass were located in offices on the OPPOSITE side of the building.)

How come Forensics Experts were not allowed to examine the wreckage of the two Trade Towers?

Why was the wreckage hurriedly disposed of without a thorough investigation?

Why were none of the 4 hijacked jets able to sound a warning that they had been hijacked? (Most people are not aware of this. I told this to someone the other day and she was floored by it.) It really does boggle the mind.
There is a special procedure for just this eventality - they can punch in a 4 digit code which alerts Air Traffic Control. The system was designed so they could do it quickly with little or no warning.

Tests using Cell Phones from Aircraft show that it would have been next to impossible for anyone to communicate from any of the jets by Cell Phone. And yet we are told that it occurred on multiple occaisions.
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And In Other News

by MadMaxim Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 10:27 PM

Agents of the FBI are reportedly investigating after
dozens of supermarket managers across the country
called the agency tip line and reported a large,
mysterious increase in the sales of aluminum foil.



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Growl

by Sheepdog Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 10:42 PM

Another point to bring up in the official story which is nothing but holes is the following:
Where is the investigation?
Where was NORAD?
And that passport... give me a break. How stupid so they think we are?
13 trillion in defense investment for what? Promotions for failure or cover up?
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 11:11 PM

What is it with Republican pinheads and their kinky tinfoil fetish...

...I seen had any "tinfoil" in more than 20 years, will aluminum foil get you guys just as hard?
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Got yer hats on?

by MadMax Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 11:32 PM

Got yer hats on?...
signs21.jpg, image/jpeg, 400x272

Just havin fun. Take a deep breath.
All together now Breeeeth!.



http://moxzii.com/joaquin/signs/index.html
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 11:34 PM

...with kiddies...

you are a sick pervert....
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hey "history buff" hee hee

by beezer Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 8:59 AM

Hey "history buff", you wrote:

>>>the U.S. lost in Vietnam, didn't really win in Gulf War I, is still losing in Afghanistan, and couldn't even find aging old Osama with a bad kidney. Iraq won't be any different. >>>

How ya like us now, CHUMP???????????????????????
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DAMN YOU LOSERS

by SADDAM HUSSEIN Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 2:53 PM

YOU FAILED YOU SORRY LOSERS. NOW I AM A GONER. BUSH WILL NOW ENJOY ANOTHER FOUR YEARS.
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