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The Peacenik Top Ten

by Fred Barnes Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 4:26 PM

A look at the ten most popular objections to war and some common-sense responses to them.

THOSE OPPOSED to military action in Iraq to depose Saddam Hussein, destroy his weapons of mass destruction, and liberate the 24 million Iraqi citizens under his control cite at least 10 objections to going to war now. These objections range from the arguable to the totally absurd. Let's examine them.

(1) Rush to war. This is a favorite of congressional Democrats. But the rush is more like a baby crawl. Iraq has been in material breach of United Nations resolutions since a few weeks after the Gulf War ended in 1991. New resolutions have been approved, inspectors ousted, and the United Nations made to look impotent. President Bush has taken all the steps asked of him before going to war: getting the approval of Congress, getting another U.N. resolution (with perhaps yet another on the way), and building a coalition of supporters. He's hardly rushing.

(2) It's a war for oil. The United States could buy all the oil it wants from Iraq by lifting the sanctions and helping to reconstruct the Iraqi oilfields. It's the French and Russians who have oil deals with Saddam and thus are fixated on that issue. They don't want a war that would upset those deals.

(3) War with Iraq will bring more terrorism. This is a hardy perennial. It was claimed before the Gulf war and the Afghanistan campaign--and when bombs fell on al Qaeda and the Taliban during Ramadan. Rather than more terrorism, removing Saddam will bring more respect for the United States. Terrorists will be increasingly fearful.

(4) The Arab street will erupt. Another perennial. This is often predicted but rarely happens. A swift, decisive victory over Saddam will quiet the Arab street. So far, only the American street has erupted--against the French and Germans.

(5) Bush is doing it for his dad. President Bush the elder stopped short of deposing Saddam in the Gulf war and to this day believes he did the right thing. So do his top aides, such as national security adviser Brent Scowcroft. Instead, they agreed to a truce with Saddam conditioned on Iraq's full disarmament. Also, consider the source of this charge: Martin Sheen.

(6) Attacking Iraq would be unprovoked aggression. No, it wouldn't. Andrew Sullivan has pointed out a significant fact: There was no peace treaty, only the truce, so the state of war resumes when the conditions are violated. By attacking now, the United States would be ending the war, not starting it.

(7) Containment is working. The problem is the right threat is not being contained: the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Sure, with U.S. troops and U.N. inspectors in the area, Saddam won't attack Jordan or Syria or other neighbors. But he could slip chemical or biological agents to terrorists without anyone knowing. And that's the threat.

(8) America doesn't have enough allies. What? Forty or so isn't enough? Is the case for war weakened in the slightest by the absence of the French or the Angolans? No. And despite what Democrats like Howard Dean say, a war with Iraq would not be "unilateral," which would mean the United States would be acting alone.

(9) Win without war. That's a nice goal. Unfortunately, it's Saddam's goal. With no war, he wins and emerges as the new strongman in the Middle East, forcing people to come to terms with him.

(10) Bush is seeking a new American empire. This is a favorite accusation of Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, the man who once recited the Gettysburg Address in Donald Duck's voice. I'll let Secretary of State Colin Powell answer this one. When hectored by a former archbishop of Canterbury on this subject recently, he said: "We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last 100 years . . . and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in." Well said.

No doubt opponents are capable of coming up with new arguments against war with Iraq. They'd better do so soon because so far they haven't convinced anyone outside the reflexively anti-Bush crowd.

Fred Barnes is executive editor of The Weekly Standard.
© Copyright 2002, News Corporation, Weekly Standard, All Rights Reserved.
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real oil story

by F. Dancing Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 6:34 PM

Fred's claim that the US could buy all the oil it wants from an un-sanctioned Iraq misses the real story.

For nearly 30 years OPEC has denominated all its oil transactions in US dollars, which channels trillions of extra dollars through the US economy, plenty of which has stayed in the US, creating the bull market in stocks, property etc and allowing your Republicans to rack up phenomenal govt debts. OPEC is however considering changing from US$ to Euro's (the EU currency), as Iraq did a few years ago.
If OPEC did that, it would pop the US economic bubble in a big way, exposing the corporate hucksters for the frauds they are and bringing an end to 'greed is good' economics.
The US governing junta however could use Iraq's oil to push down oil prices, destroying OPEC and so stop any change. Thats why Bush needs Iraq's oil so bad, to destroy OPEC and show all countries what happens if you buck the US$ hegemony.


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straw man argument

by philio Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 6:40 PM

Classic straw man argument: one creates an image of oppostion and tears the argument apart. When you argue with yourself you nearly always win!

Tell me again what the reasons are for why we need to go to war at this moment?

To create democracy in Iraq? Maybe we should create one at home first.

Because Saddam is a bad man? He wasn't so bad when Rumsfeld went to Iraq to shake his hand.

So that Iraq will not use its WPD against us? Geez, they had their chance during the last time we invaded their country - why didn't they use theri weapons then?

Becasue they still have weapons and inspections will never disarm Iraq? Even though every day we hear of the success of the arms inspections? You would think that if Bush knew something that the arms inspectors did not know, the least they could do is share the information.

Becasue invading Iraq will make us all safer? Right, and win us lots of friends abroad as well.


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assinine

by fresca Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 6:55 PM

"To create democracy in Iraq? Maybe we should create one at home first."?

Assinine hyperbole.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 6:55 PM

Philio, you are only the latest in a long line of Leftists to decry straw men only to set them up yourself.

So let's play.

What did you mean when you said:

"Because Saddam is a bad man? He wasn't so bad when Rumsfeld went to Iraq to shake his hand."

No weaseling, now.
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Uh...Really?

by fresca Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 7:12 PM

"Even though every day we hear of the success of the arms inspections?"

Now there's a whopper of a lie.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 12:36 AM

Democracy in Iraq...you mean like we promised in Kuwait 12 years ago?

...still waiting...
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shame of the world

by systemfailure Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 3:55 AM

1--still no democracy or womens rights in kuwait
Didnt get saddam the first time, we still dont have bin laden (year later)
no iraqis on the world trade center plane
2--if its not for oil, then why arent we helping against the evils taking place in africa?
3---we "americans" will be viewed in the same light as "nazis" when travelling overseas.
4--We have advocated "civil war", and when a war hits- thats what happens. no lights, no food, no water..guess what happens next to the community.
..warring governments only kill innocent people that have no gain from thier war.
5. This one is a no brainer, of course he wants show daddy hes a good killer.
6.-- in 1990-91,we were there enforcing UN laws
-----but if we dont agree with the UN now, then why would we care to enforce its laws?
7. Contain the weapons of mass destruction.. you moron, who do you think they bought them from?
they bought them from the US.
8. the whole reason for the UN is that countries act together democratically with a checks and balance system....to prevent fascism.
9--This guy has never killed anyone in war, or experienced a war ( except on cnn).
he has never seen the refugees, the lost parents or children, the destruction, or felt thier dispair.
10--REMEMBER This nation was founded on terrorism (boston tea party and guerilla warfare ect.)
WE learned this from the FRENCH who helped us during the revolutionary war.
We must sacrifice our rights here because of terrorism.
We must pay half our taxes for thier corporate wars.
We have bad schools, no healthcare, no social security.
signed in solidarity with the real americans who challenge thier governments.
a veteran of panama 89 and the gulf war 90-91.

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Simple

by Simple Simon Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 9:40 AM

1.True. There is no functioning democracy in Kuwait, and women’s rights are non-existent. But wait a minute. All the other half-wits around here are saying we shouldn’t attack Iraq and impose a governmental system on them – but you want to decry our NOT doing so to Kuwait. Curious. Furthermore, the absence of Democracy and women’s rights are not a result of American policies. They are the result of Islamic sensibilities. Are you saying we should charge in there, destroy their governments, and convert them all to Christianity? Am I talking to Ann Coulter?

2.Oil. For the umpteenth time, we could have all the oil we wanted by LIFTING SANCTIONS. The French and the Russians have been trading with the Iraqis for cheap oil, and that could very well be why they suddenly have taken such ‘principled’ stands concerning the coming Iraqi stomping party. Africa is a basket case, so you’ll have to be more specific about which particular problem you would like the United States to fix. Of course, bear in mind, that should we so much as raise a finger to help, your Indymedia buddies will all scream ‘colonialism’ and ‘imperialism’ and make accusations of racism.

3.Should the United States remove a tyrant, expose his torture chambers and the mass graves, they will be cheered by everyone – most loudly the Iraqis themselves. And the only people not cheering will be those countries who may fear they are next in line – and the sludge of Indymedia.

4.What the hell are you talking about?

5.Perhaps in your neighborhood the children aspire to impress their fathers by killing, I don’t know. What I do know is that the accusation is so infantile as to not warrant serious discussion.

6.The question is not one of whether or not we agree with the UN. The question is whether or not the UN will enforce its own resolutions. If it should fail to do so, it is no longer relevant. If the UN made a pronouncement tomorrow to smash KPC’s mansion flat the next time he misspells something, then ignores the constant string of misspellings from KPC, It cannot be considered a credible (meaning believable) institution. The ONLY reason that there are inspectors in Iraq today is because George W. Bush MADE the UN put them back in. When the Iraqis ousted them in 1998, it was a violation of the Gulf War cease-fire agreement. The UN should have taken steps to immediately bring the Iraqis back into compliance. Instead, we waited FOUR YEARS for them to do anything, and they resent the US for forcing them to do so. The UN is on the brink of becoming a useless debating society, if it hasn’t become that already.

7.Wrong-o Ringo. They produced the majority of their stockpile of biological and chemical weapons domestically. And with equipment supplied by the French and Germans. Furthermore, what the hell does where they came from have to do with anything? The question is whether containment will work or not, and the answer is no it will not.

8.Silly. The UN is used by dictatorships to delay and prevent action against them. The mechanisms in place move so slowly when there is unanimity (such as against Iraq in 1990) that when there is the smallest resistance the machine doesn’t move at all. Dictators rely on and appreciate this inertia.

9.And you, who purport to have seen war, suppose that it’s better to leave the Iraqi people under their dictator, with his torture chambers and reeducation camps and open graves. Some humanitarian you are. And didn’t you suggest we should liberate Kuwait in #1 above? Look up the word consistency.

10.There is a significant difference between revolutionary activity – irregular troops and agents who attempt to accomplish a political goal, and terrorism – which today is largely associated with the intentional murder of non-combatants. If the farmers and tradesmen who assembled at Lexington Green to oppose the British had instead decided to rape and murder the wives and children of British soldiers and Tories – there would not have been much support for their cause. Alas, our Muslim friends seem to operate from a different set of rules.

Our health care is the envy of the world. Our level of support, even for those who are here illegally is the envy of the world. Your tax dollars largely go to paying for these entitlements. If your local schools are bad, thank your local Democrat – as the teacher’s unions have a stranglehold on that organization.

And just because you went to Urgent Fury and Desert Storm doesn’t make you any less wrong.
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brainwashed fascist

by systemfailure Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 1:48 PM

1-I was asking about the UN resolution that stated if the UN came to the aid of Kuwait in the First Gulf War, they would seek democratic reforms. These are not things that I am advocating..they are part of the reason we went there in the first place. Personally, i dont think we should be in the middle east at all.
2--What are you talking about..like if we lifted the sanctions we would get free oil. We still do get oil for Iraq..through Turkey. Iraq exports it to Turkey, then we buy it from them. Interesting point here, when venezuela had thier workers strike, Iraq is the one who increased oil suppy to counter the deficit.
Nice way not to answer the "Africa" question. Again you fail to equate the similarities of why we are in Iraq. If we are there to depose a "evil dictator" for humanitarian reasons, then why not all over the globe.
3--I could personally give a shit what happens overseas, most of the problems are created by US foriegn policy. (dont give me your bullshit "what if" about Hitler either) We are the largest arms dealers in the world, we supplied 'em, now we got to demilitarize them.
4--Love the way you answer for the Iraqi people. You have never been to Iraq, probally never been to the Middle east. My reference previously, was that when a war hits (since you have never been in combat I'll explain). (again), When a war hits, ( imagine if you are living in Your Bel Air house).
Now your sitting there, and the US bombs the electricity plant, NOW YOUR SITTING IN THE DARK.
Next they bomb the natural gas lines in your town. NOW THERE IS NO COOKING OR ANY HEAT.
MOST SURROUNDING STORES WILL BE LOOTED BY PEOLE LIKE YOU WHO NEED A CANNED FOOD SUPPLY....but wait now the foods all gone. THE WATER IS POLLUTED BY A SPECIAL OPS SOLDIER...now no water.
NOT ONLY ALL THE ABOVE SITUATIONS, BUT YOU HAVE TANKS, SOLDIERS SHOOTING, BOMBS GOING OFF ALL AROUND YOU ETC ETC ETC.
What kind of environment do you think that creates? I have seen it across the world in different situations, while I'm very sure you have not. This creates "gang" mentality AND THE MOB RULES--people raid other houses for food and water--people seek to get back at thier enemies--and thats when the refugees "amass on the neighbooring countries border.
5--I'll just quote "Dubya" for you, "This man tried to kill my father", why would that be an issue, if it wasn't. Neighboorhood children dont aspire to kill for thier daddies, why would anyone join the military then, thats what soldiers do--KILL.
6(i knew you wouldnt understand this one so i'll diagram it out for you)
Your argument made no sense.
a::We originally acted as part of the UN democracy to help out Kuwait.
b::Now we don't agree with the UN and want to go at it "alone"
c::Iraq has never attacked the US ( we dont support the UN)
d::So why would we enforce laws of a UN that we dont support?
e::Why are we there, enforcing laws that were democraticlly enacted by the Security Council, now we don't support them because they didnt vote our way. Why would we care that much? (ref. Africa)
You really need to look at the structure of the argument I am trying to make so you understand.
7--My point was that among th US, and other UN countries(germany and france correct), supplied them with the WMD and other goodies during thier war with Iran. (Cuz bak then we hated Iran more than Iraq).
8--You should take a political science class at your local high school and you'll find out that the "checks and balance" systems are used to do precisely what you said. "slow things down" so thier is time to debate. The innocent people and children rely on this too...
9--I like how you structure your argument to use my examples of "why we were there" to equivicate my own "personal views". I didnt have a choice when i was 20 years old in Kuwait the first time. We were mercenaries, everyone who was there knew that. I never claimed to be a "humanitarian", I was a good killer, thats all. I could care less what happens over there until we have a "clean house" here
10--Read a history book on the american revolution. Start with a timeline of around 1500-1800.
I closing, the invasion of Panama was called "Operation Just Cause", please do not cheapen the lives of the men who fought and died there by not knowing their history.
Your comentary about our healthcare system only proves your ignorance to the facts of the case.
My point was that we need to "fix our own house" before we help others.
You as a "patriotic american" need to check your source material, and understand that the American way of life was founded by protesting thier governments actions.

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systemfailure

by meeper Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 2:00 PM

Systemfailure,
Thanks for trying to appeal to Psymple Psymon's humanity, but it ain't gonna work. He whored that away alooong time ago.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 2:14 PM

Pvt. Fido: "1.True. There is no functioning democracy in Kuwait, and women’s rights are non-existent. But wait a minute. All the other half-wits around here are saying we shouldn’t attack Iraq and impose a governmental system on them – but you want to decry our NOT doing so to Kuwait."

Now, I don't know of very many doggies that are this stupid, so I figure you know damn well how flacid your argument is here. This is your straw man bullshit, which seems to be the only tool in you rapidly depleting toolbox...

...the point is that we knew back then the the "bring democracy to 'em" line was bullshit, just like we know now...and we are pointing out that the same lie being told then is being told now...in either case we have NO right to do either...but you'd think that a "stand up" guy like da Shrub would not take the Clinton route of cynical lying just to achieve his ends...but I guess we are expecting too much..

...and you, by your obvious obfuscating, are giving support to what you know to be lies...

...so...your whole premise is built on what you know to be lies...pretty indefensible..

...but, hey, that's your job here, defending the indefensible...


...now back to work, doggie....
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Simple

by Simple Simon Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 2:49 PM

Ignorant Monkey

1.Kindly point out the relevant passage from any UN resolution that says anything about our involvement in the Gulf War was to be conditioned on the democratic reforms of Kuwait. I’ll wait.

2.The question is this, Einstein. If oil is the goal, don’t you think that lifting sanctions and offering to PROTECT Saddam would get us a good price on oil? And don’t you think that it would be more of a sure thing than deploying 300,000 troops and attempting to take the oil? Golly, that’s a tough one. Now, as to Africa, it is incumbent upon you, my learned friend to tell me exactly which African problem we should help with. Or are you suggesting that all of Africa is desperately in need of American intervention?

3.Ah, a budding isolationist. Buchanan fan, I see. And of course, blame America First.

4.I almost believed you were a soldier, but then you went and said something so stupid that you have exposed yourself as a fraud: “THE WATER IS POLLUTED BY A SPECIAL OPS SOLDIER” Nice try, junior. And in all these many conflicts you witnessed through the pages of Soldier of Fortune, this mob mentality takes place, does it? Well, golly, how quick does this mob mentality strike? I mean the land phase of the Gulf War lasted 100 hours – I don’t remember hordes of Iraqi refugees, but hell you were there, so I’m sure you know.

5.How in the world would you know what soldiers do? Did you see it in a magazine?

6.I’m not sure you’ll understand this so I’ll type more slowly. The UN has passed 17 (soon 18) resolutions on Iraq. The Iraqis are in violation of these resolutions. The UN has done nothing to enforce them. Should the US decide to attack Iraq, they will do so with dozens of countries in support (this means we’re not alone). Iraq HAS attacked the United States, starting with the USS Stark. Iraq also funded and provided documents to Ramzi Yousef when he attempted to blow up the WTC in 1993. Should we attack Iraq without UN approval we are doing so to accomplish a number of goals including: 1. the removal of Saddam Hussein. 2. the foundation of a militarily potent, Western-friendly Sunni regime in Iraq. 3. Encourage and speed the destabilization of the Iranian regime. 4. Put the fear into the Syrians, Saudis and other barbaric meatheads. Got it yet?

7.I understand your point, but it is not relevant. If someone gives you a gun, and you decide to use it to shoot nuns and people in wheelchairs it is more important that you be disarmed than it is to ask where the gun came from. Guns by themselves, like WMD, are harmless. Only when they are put in the hands of people willing to use them are they dangerous.

8.You shouldn’t arrogate to yourself an understanding of political science. The checks and balances you refer to pertain to the relationship between the various branches of the American government. The UN is not subject to these concepts. Or perhaps you could help me understand. Which body in the UN acts as a check or balance on the Security Council? I’ll wait.

9.You are a liar. Spare me your tales of mercenary indentured servitude. If you were in Saudi Arabia you were a REMF. But why don’t you give me some background info? Units of assignment (both for Just Cause and for Desert Storm), MOS, etc. Why don’t you tell me where and when you went through basic and AIT? I love fiction.

10.I am confident that my knowledge of American History surpasses even your knowledge of TV Guide.

Your assumption is that there is something wrong with our house in the first place. In that you would be incorrect. Millions flee their homelands every year and where do you think they go? Here. They don’t hop on cardboard boxes and float to Argentina or Italy, they come here. And the only people that don’t appreciate this country are the home-bred soft bellied snakes like yourself.


Oh, and KPC, you really should slow down and read. I never said that a goal of the Gulf War was to bring Democracy to Kuwait. Nope. Never did.

Are you resorting to attacking people over comments they've never made?
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 2:57 PM

What, are you going to tell me that Poppy's spinmeisters never floated that information to the public as a outcome of "liberating" Kuwait in order to drum up public support?

Gahead...lie if you want to....but you know that they did. Now they are floating the same bullshit...does it say anything in UN resolutions about democracy in Iraq....nooooo...have you facist fuckin' loons been squaking such nonsense continuously..yeeesss....

Don't be such a coward...you are disgracing your uniform (more than usual, I mean...)
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Simple

by Simple Simon Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 3:02 PM

I don't recall any such pronouncements, but hell, you're the expert.

Produce one.
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Favorite lies

by hazard Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 3:09 PM

Some of my favorite lies from Gulf Massacre 1 that people like Psymple Psymon bought hook line and sinker were:

250,000 iraqi troops amassed along the border of Saudi Arabia.
Patriot missiles were hitting 95% of their targets.
The incubator myth (care of an American PR firm)
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Simon is a tool

by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 4:26 PM

Simon do you get paid by the word, or the hour, or the blowjob, or what?

I swear the way you go at it you'd think you have black and decker stamped on your ass.

Apparently this 'strawman attack' is getting a little too obvious, so now you would-be thugs have an associative attack going, for instance, systemfailure says he feels we should have less of an overseas presence, so you label him an isolationist, decide buchanan is his role model, and wait to see if he takes the bait. Your ploys are obvious, pointless, and don't really amount to a hillof beans. You aren't convincing anyone of anything other than your own ignorance and servitude, and you should just take your fascist shit back to the freerepublic mothership.

Halfwit.

Also, you refer to lifting sanctions as a means to the ends, to which i would ask, why pay for something you can just outright steal? Because it costs a fortune to steal it? Well who's making money off the process? Wow. The same people initiating it. Sounds like they're making money from every angle imaginable. And to boot they get to establish the precident of impudently unchecked global power! Wow. Thats almost worth the price of admission alone. And why should we be the only power in the world without a check or balance, eh? By what right? Divine right?

Oh and attempting to put down ohio (as you did yesterday in some other thread) isn't going to work either. Your goal of getting me to go on some sorta yay-ohio or nay-cali rant, and thus alienating myself against the rest of the la.imc scene (or allying yourself with the rest of the people here against me), is like all your other little ploys, stupid and obvious, and desperate this time too. Can't you think of something better to attack than my demographic? What the hell do you care anyways. You're just desperate for something to criticize.

Why don't you go find a spelling or grammar error to make a big deal out of? Or better yet, why don't you fuck off and die.

BTW: systemfailure i'm in complete agreement with pretty much everything you said. It's nice to see that people can come 'back' from whatever state of mind the military imposes on you.
.
.
.
Please turn off CNN.
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Okay, the real deal is...

by KPC Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 7:07 PM

I hate white people and Jews. Wish they would all die.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 12:17 AM

Pvt. Fido:"I don't recall"

The Republican mantra...

...when you can't lie...forget!
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Simple Simor Kicked your hineys.

by MadMaxim Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 1:39 AM


He turned your arguments into Swiss cheese so you resort to childish name calling.... LOL.



Simple Simon: Huuuuuuugo?
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revolution calling

by systemfailure Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 4:36 AM

I served in the 4th battalion 6th infantry regiment 5th infantry division in Panama.
I also served in the 3rd Squadron 2nd Armored Cavalry in the gulf war.
I was a forward based "frontline" lead element in both campaigns.
I served as an infantryman in both conflicts.
I received the combat infantry badge in both and numerous medals for valor.
Now I sing in an anarchist punk band preaching social reform.
I stand on my laurels about what i know.
thanks KPC and Pissed. in Ohio for understanding my new plight to defend the constitution from fascism.
TO SIMPLE SIMON: ()
come see me on the 8th of march in north hollywood, or whenever i play again.
You wont be so free with your insults then
peace. love and anarchy
systemfailure.:-}
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Yes Simon certainly is good with cheese

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 6:42 AM

Yes 'Simor' certainly is a veritable Cheez-Wiz. You'd think he was lobbying for a job as a right wing spin doctor. Maybe he is. Maybe this is how he interns for them. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

And he has yet to address any issues head on, with his constant diatribe of challenging sources, character assasination, and eventually, when his weak senseless arguements have run out of steam, name calling, lies, and baseless empty accusations.

Aside from the minds of this forums most gullible readers (many of whom made up their minds long before arriving, i'm sure), i don't think simon is turning anything into cheese.

For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me for a moment if you ARE simon, maxim. Just another desperate attempt to try to lend credibility to a stupid cause.

And further reason for me to urge the people that run this site to work with me and/or other web developers in establishing a protocol of identity verification. It does not need to use any information that could be used to track down site participants.

Regardless of who you are, its clear that you are "both" ignorant halfwits. Thats not, imo, childish name calling, thats an indisputable statement of fact.

Now run along and go legislate some more corruption.

Oh and sheepdog, FYI, I haven't caught anyone weaseling my name yet but it wouldn't surprise me if it started happening soon as it appears to happen near daily with yours.
.
.
.
People of the phree world, please turn off CNN
.
.
.
To the people that pull dubya's strings, if you're reading this now, it is time to hang him out to dry, or you're all going down with him.
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Yes Simon certainly is good with cheese

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 6:42 AM

Yes 'Simor' certainly is a veritable Cheez-Wiz. You'd think he was lobbying for a job as a right wing spin doctor. Maybe he is. Maybe this is how he interns for them. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

And he has yet to address any issues head on, with his constant diatribe of challenging sources, character assasination, and eventually, when his weak senseless arguements have run out of steam, name calling, lies, and baseless empty accusations.

Aside from the minds of this forums most gullible readers (many of whom made up their minds long before arriving, i'm sure), i don't think simon is turning anything into cheese.

For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me for a moment if you ARE simon, maxim. Just another desperate attempt to try to lend credibility to a stupid cause.

And further reason for me to urge the people that run this site to work with me and/or other web developers in establishing a protocol of identity verification. It does not need to use any information that could be used to track down site participants.

Regardless of who you are, its clear that you are "both" ignorant halfwits. Thats not, imo, childish name calling, thats an indisputable statement of fact.

Now run along and go legislate some more corruption.

Oh and sheepdog, FYI, I haven't caught anyone weaseling my name yet but it wouldn't surprise me if it started happening soon as it appears to happen near daily with yours.
.
.
.
People of the phree world, please turn off CNN
.
.
.
To the people that pull dubya's strings, if you're reading this now, it is time to hang him out to dry, or you're all going down with him.
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Yes Simon certainly is good with cheese

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 6:42 AM

Yes 'Simor' certainly is a veritable Cheez-Wiz. You'd think he was lobbying for a job as a right wing spin doctor. Maybe he is. Maybe this is how he interns for them. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

And he has yet to address any issues head on, with his constant diatribe of challenging sources, character assasination, and eventually, when his weak senseless arguements have run out of steam, name calling, lies, and baseless empty accusations.

Aside from the minds of this forums most gullible readers (many of whom made up their minds long before arriving, i'm sure), i don't think simon is turning anything into cheese.

For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me for a moment if you ARE simon, maxim. Just another desperate attempt to try to lend credibility to a stupid cause.

And further reason for me to urge the people that run this site to work with me and/or other web developers in establishing a protocol of identity verification. It does not need to use any information that could be used to track down site participants.

Regardless of who you are, its clear that you are "both" ignorant halfwits. Thats not, imo, childish name calling, thats an indisputable statement of fact.

Now run along and go legislate some more corruption.

Oh and sheepdog, FYI, I haven't caught anyone weaseling my name yet but it wouldn't surprise me if it started happening soon as it appears to happen near daily with yours.
.
.
.
People of the phree world, please turn off CNN
.
.
.
To the people that pull dubya's strings, if you're reading this now, it is time to hang him out to dry, or you're all going down with him.
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Yes Simon certainly is good with cheese

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 6:46 AM

Yes 'Simor' certainly is a veritable Cheez-Wiz. You'd think he was lobbying for a job as a right wing spin doctor. Maybe he is. Maybe this is how he interns for them. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

And he has yet to address any issues head on, with his constant diatribe of challenging sources, character assasination, and eventually, when his weak senseless arguements have run out of steam, name calling, lies, and baseless empty accusations.

Aside from the minds of this forums most gullible readers (many of whom made up their minds long before arriving, i'm sure), i don't think simon is turning anything into cheese.

For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me for a moment if you ARE simon, maxim. Just another desperate attempt to try to lend credibility to a stupid cause.

And further reason for me to urge the people that run this site to work with me and/or other web developers in establishing a protocol of identity verification. It does not need to use any information that could be used to track down site participants.

Regardless of who you are, its clear that you are "both" ignorant halfwits. Thats not, imo, childish name calling, thats an indisputable statement of fact.

Now run along and go legislate some more corruption.

Oh and sheepdog, FYI, I haven't caught anyone weaseling my name yet but it wouldn't surprise me if it started happening soon as it appears to happen near daily with yours.
.
.
.
People of the phree world, please turn off CNN
.
.
.
To the people that pull dubya's strings, if you're reading this now, it is time to hang him out to dry, or you're all going down with him.
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fuck

by Sheepish In Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 6:48 AM

Sorry ppl, I kept getting error messages and the forums did not appear to be accepting the submission.
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America sucks

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 11:28 AM

Death to America. I hope the Arabs kill thousands of American soldiers.
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The reason is...

by KPC Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 11:56 AM

It's a Jew conspiracy.
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Fact!

by The CandyMan Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 11:58 AM

In the early seventies, Martin Sheen murdered a transexual prostitute named Olive outside a West Hollywood bar. Jerry Brown covered it up.
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Who the hell cares?

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 2:48 PM

Like I give a rat's ass about martin sheen, or transvestite martian elvis impersonator he molested while worshiping c'thulu on hollywood blvd. Who cares?

BTW, way to really rally people around your cause. You certainly present a good arguement. Good job.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 9:07 PM

Systemfailure I'm still waiting for your replies to various questions above. I would hate to think you couldn't substantiate your various claims.

Same of course goes for you, KPC. Where's that quote?

Hey, Ohio, son, I'm not making fun of where you live, I'm making fun of you. I'm sure there are a lot of really nice people in Ohio who aren't rediculous paranoids with delusions of grandeur - you're just not one of them.

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Haha halfwit liar

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 9:48 PM

"Hey, Ohio, son, I'm not making fun of where you live"

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/26052_comment.php#33824

"What's even funnier is that you're in Ohio.

You lose a bet with God?"

Noooo, of course not. You're such a tool. Just because I didn't reply to it doesn't mean I didn't notice it. It was just too juvenile and infantile to warrant a response. But if you're going to lie about having ever said it, well, I'll take the time to call you on it.

And how have I aluded to granduer? The idea that i believe in what i say enough to defend it? The fact that I would be so arrogant as to express my opinion? You're one to talk, you clearly think the whole damn world spins around your fat head.

You dumbasses just can't fuck with me so you resort to this bullshit.

C'mon doggy, try again. You must have something better than this crap, for all the shit you talk.
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Sit doggy sit

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 10:44 PM

I'll address some of your bullshit as it appears system failure is either fed up or too busy to.

1) It was widely acknowledged in popular media of the day, you know it as well as anyone else reading this now. Provided you were alive and capable of rational thought at the time of the gulf war, which is clearly a pretty big if. The pitched it to the masses as a great movement to bring freedom and liberty to those poor impoverished kuwaiti's, because to say we went there and invaded for the sake of protecting our strategic investment in saudi would not have been swallowed anywhere near as cleanly.

2) Why buy the shit when we could just steal it? And our leaders can pay themselves big kickbacks off financing aspects of the logistical side of an invasion to boot. And we get to establish a perogative of impudently imposing our will on whoever the hell we want.

3) So what, we obviously need reformed foriegn policy, i'd say beginning that process by bringing most everyone home and regrouping sounds like a damn good idea. Regardless of if buchanan said it, or bozo the clown, or elvis himself, it would still be a good idea. Naturally we leave our ambassadors out there, and perhaps enough of a military force to assure their safety. Beyond that we should just go home and focus on more pressing 'regional issues', like the bush administration.

4) What the fuck do you know. Oh no, of course we'd never polute their water supply, and we wouldn't use chemical weapons on them either. And waco never happened. Get real. We fight to win the same as everyone else, we're just damn good at it when we set our mind to winning and not stonewalling.

5) Holy crap look at the balls on this one. You'd almost think it was a male of the species.

6) The US has made a profession of violating UN resolutions. We veto anything we don't agree with. Iraq does not get that liberty. And so because Iraq hasn't jumped through every hoop we've ever lit on fire in front of them, we are now authorized to proceed with Operation Blow Up Everything? Reminds me of Robocop... "You now have 15 seconds to comply".

7) Well we obviously seem pretty damn ready to use them. Who's going to disarm us? Or is it ok that we use them at will because we're the biggest kid on the block right now? Or is it ok to use them because we built and supplied them to everyone else? The matter of who supplied them with what is very relevant, regardless of how much you'd like to marginalize the issue.

8) So you're saying only america should benefit from the result of a calm rational decision? Did we patent the idea of checks and balances? I must have missed that one. Oh wait, i got it. Those check and balances only pertain to the inner workings of the machine. The rest of the world can just directly fuck off eh?

9) see #5

10) Not that i'm sympathetic to the terrorists, but they did attack a major US / Jewish held financial institution and our center of military strategy. That would be percieved as a tactical strike against who they percieve to be their enemies. Not exactly raping and pillaging the masses. Maybe the rapers and pillagers were coming over in the next plane load. Ashcroft certainly seems like he's been having a field day of pillaging, and raping us of our rights. Good thing for that automatic sunset clause... oh wait.

You speak of the envy of the world as if you had any perspective at all on how we're percieved internationally. You clearly have no such legitimate insight, but that is beyond the point. Our healthcare is the envy of many americans too, and is just one more aspect of classism, a plight that daddies money has obviously spared you from but the harsh reality of it is something the majority of people in america have to deal with every day. And who the hell cares who fucked up the schools, the problem is that they're fucked, not who's better at pinning the blame on the other guy.

And our economy isn't going to be the envy of the world much longer so you better enjoy that one while you still can.
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simple simon cant read

by systemfailure Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 12:31 AM

simply stoopid, i posted my credentials already, with a website and email.
go up a few notches. and youll see.
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commentary

by systemfailure Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 1:07 AM

1. I was referring to the propaganda that the state used to get dumb asses like yourself to believe in thier shit.
2. Do you think we were protecting Saddam when we funded his military in thier war with Iran in (1980-89)? I dont think the people would stand for a declaraton of war for oil, of course, thats why they are conspiring with thier bullshit today. How Many Iraqis on the plane?
Nice way to not answer the Africa question.
3. Well, in america we should have freedom of association (exept with the patriot act) But to tell the truth--im an anarchist.
4. nice argument "Ad hominem", but you once again didnt answer my question.
5.nice argument "Ad hominem", but you once again didnt answer my question.
6. read this slowly stupid, ill diagram it once again.
a...we agreed (US) to be part of the UN and help them according to their bylaws.
b..Iraq has never been a threat to the US
c..We would have never went there the first time unless we were defending the bylaws of the UN.
(just as we stay out of civil wars in africa).
d..now the UN says "wait a minute"
e..we say "no you are weak and we will strike because they are a threat to world peace"
f..Is the US the UN or is it a coalition of WORLD nations?
7. Nice way to once again avoid the argument. Why arent citizens of the Us allowed to own submachine guns, artillery, or a-bombs?
8. Well actually thats why out of the "superpowers" each is allowed to stop an action with a vote of NO. This is the "checks and balances" to ensure that no one power has all the power (you really made me laugh at your lack of understanding of the UN with this one).
9. See above (couple clicks north), and once again an avoidance of the real issue with an "ad hominem" argument. You can email me at dvml@mail.com for a full list of awards etc. This comes from a man (simple dumfuck) who has no knowledge of the military, and insults the patriots that were fooled the FIRST TIME. PS. im also an expert with the M-16A2, handgrenades, and (in that matter) any other weapon (of course im also an expert in hand-to- hand {JKD)).
YA see, your insults amuse me, because you have never seen what i have seen, been where i have been, and killed as i have killed. I am not proud of my murders for my country, but what happened happened.
10. once again an avoidance of the issue.
Are people still migrating here, or is that just your imagination. Im sure the Arab americans that were rounded up by the INS were happy to be here.
the truth is is that you fail to properly address any of the arguments validly. You challenge people with empty rhetoric and insults. I am fighting for a united states that our forefathers recognized as a place where people could come and be free. YOur justification for people wanting to come here is valid, i am fighting for the freedoms that were guranteed to us in the constitution. What are you fighting for?
10.


7.
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simple simon cant read

by systemfailure Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 1:19 AM

simply stoopid, i posted my credentials already, with a website and email.
go up a few notches. and youll see.
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Points

by Scottie Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 3:42 PM

Ohh I like point by point debate

1. US doesnt have a monopoly on propoganda - infact it isn't even very good at it (it hasnt sold the war on iraq and thats an EASY sell)
2. a) US had strategic objectives laregly related to the cold war.
b) How Many Iraqis on the plane? is like the specious argument "more americans kill americans than iraqis" sounds nice as a catch phrase but irrelevant
Nice way to not answer the Africa question.
3. anarchists should all me far right libitarians.. otherwise your a pretty non-anarchist anarcist. probably should go back to the philosophy books.

6.
a...Iraq has never been a threat to the US... so we are not alowed to help to defend other countries? besides there are lots of ways to threaten a country besides direct land invasion.
c..We would have never went there the first time unless we were defending the bylaws of the UN.
Saudi arabia asked for the US help. We would have been there anyway saudi arabia is a good friend in opec to the USA. (yeah yeah oil... so what who cares)
d) should we have waited for the league of nations to decide to declare war on the Nazi? we would still be waiting I guess.

8. The UN has checks and balances to make sure no one has any power through the UN. (because it is almost impossible to get a resolution to do anything uness its against an insignificant country where it was a waste of time asking hte UN anyway... did france ask the UN about ivory coast?

10. people generally migrate primarily for economic reasons. usually getting bugged by the local authorities is a minor issue as long as it goes away. Of course that doesnt stop people complaining about it.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 8:35 PM

Systemfailure, you're a motorized mortarman. Which means you're a chubby motorpool punk with an oversized set of BDU's stained on the back from sleeping under your track.

Whereas I might be convinced you were where you say you were, I AM convinced you are in ignorant jerkoff who won't answer questions.

I'll answer any question you want. You resort to pissing and moaning like old Mullets-and-tanktops-in-the-midwest.

Where are those articles? Where is the proof?
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oh but i thought he wasn't even in the military psimon

by POIO Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 11:49 PM

what gives? You said he wasn't in the military! You implied you knew better than he did what military he did or didn't serve in. I had total, blind, unwaivering faith in you and YOU LET ME DOWN!!!

I'm so disappointed.
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been there done that

by systemfailure Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 4:47 AM

Thanks POIO.
Yeah, all this guy does when he cant answer a question is insult the person who shuts him down.
I laugh at him because i know he is just another brainwashed "program".
He bagged on me and said i read too much soldier of fortune, then said maybe i can believe you.
Getting ignorant folks to admit thier stupid is easier said than done.
He has no knowledge of my military duty. He couldnt even make it through the first day of basic training....Where did you serve Mr. simple simon? Ever in the military, or were you too busy spending daddys money at community college.
He's great at bait and switch arguments, then when he cant find an answer he gets all frusterated and shows his ignorance.
Hey simon, heres a quote that you should add to your desktop, so youll never forget.
"It is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.
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Ahhh....

by Sheepdog Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 5:39 AM

But it does have a considerable data base and crew of
research weasels to give it an air of creditability.
Talks like a typical arm chair hero who would wet its
pants in a fire fight.
That was a giveaway when he zeroed out Mr.POIO's location
calling in a little TOO much coincidence ... IMO
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Simple

by Simple Simon Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 8:41 AM

Oldies but goodies, boys. No weaseling now. The following is a list of unanswered questions. Kindly answer them when you get tired of talking trash.

For the lob dick wannabe redleg mortarman:

Kindly point out the relevant passage from any UN resolution that says anything about our involvement in the Gulf War was to be conditioned on the democratic reforms of Kuwait. I’ll wait.

Now, as to Africa, it is incumbent upon you, my learned friend to tell me exactly which African problem we should help with.

Which body in the UN acts as a check or balance on the Security Council? I’ll wait.

And a new one:

Where and when did you EVER see a US special operations soldier poison a water supply?

For KPC:
I don't recall any such pronouncements, (concerning liberating Kuwait with the intention of planting a Democracy there) but hell, you're the expert.
Produce one.
And finally, let’s get in the way-back machine with an unanswered question for Philio:
What did you mean when you said: "Because Saddam is a bad man? He wasn't so bad when Rumsfeld went to Iraq to shake his hand."
You see, kiddies, we’re all real impressed with your ability to talk trash and obfuscate, but we haven’t heard any answers to various questions. If, on the other hand you have a question for me, I’ll be happy to answer it.
Have a nice day.
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Did someone say questions?

by Diogenes Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 9:11 AM

Here are some you have studiously tried to avoid:

So that you might not forget I repost the questions I have posed to you which you have NEVER answered:

“We have as yet to have a convincing explanation of what really occurred on 911. And don't give me that tired old line about Muslims hating us because we are free. That dog won't hunt. The Current Junta has attempted to block or limit any investigation at every turn - including appointing Henry, useless eaters, Kissinger to run the Whitewash.
19 Arabs - 8 of whom are still alive and no explanation as to how they were able to overcome the Cockpit Crews of 4 Airliners without ONE giving an alert. BULLSHIT. That is even more fantastical than 19 Arabs who were incompetent pilots who suddenly acquired the skills of a trained military pilot (despite being trained at a Flight School with C.I.A. connections - whose owner Rudi Dekkers has now had 3 attempts on his life - wonder why?) and evidence that would suggest they could not even competently fly a Cessna 180. You are too intelligent to believe that pantload so therefore I know you to be a liar and a Psyops Shill operating from an agenda other than that of forwarding the truth.

To which I would add for your consideration:

Why was NORAD asleep? There were two air bases, one with 7 minutes intercept time, the other 10, along the direct flight path of the plane that hit the Pentagon.

Why was NORAD able to scramble two F-15’s and have them alongside Golfer Payne Stewart’s aircraft within 10 minutes while unable to intercept any of the 4 JUMBO JETS in a period of about 2 hours? Was their perhaps another agenda at play? I can understand the first POSSIBLY making it through, but not 3 more.

The plane that hit the Pentagon descended 7000 feet in 2 minutes in a tight spiral described by Air Traffic Controllers as “military like” in it’s precision. It then proceeded at tree top height, even clipping some branches, to hit dead center a 71 foot high wall. And this was allegedly done by a pilot trained only in simulators who had never actually flown a Jet Aircraft AT ALL.
These are not the only questions unanswered as I am sure you must know. While I can speak only for myself I can say that I have observed many others who are troubled by these UNANSWERED questions.


911 WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 9:12 AM

Fido: "I don't recall..."

The Republican mantra...

..when you can't lie...forget!
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Simple

by Simple Simon Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 9:52 AM

Alright, in the interest of consistency, I will attempt to answer this. Here we go:

First, I disagree with your premise. The terrorists who perpetrated this act did so at the direction of Osama Bin Laden and his organization. Surviving members of his organization have admitted to this repeatedly- both in captivity and to Al Jazeera television. The reasons they give for their attacking us has much to do with their religious beliefs and a desire to reestablish the Caliphate. So, sadly, yes it has to do with them hating us.

Kissinger is no longer involved. My, this question has been out there a while.

The 19 hijackers hijacked the 4 planes. They, like all the passengers, are dead. If you have reliable evidence that 8 hijackers are still alive and well then kindly produce it. (IMPORTANT CAVEAT: I said reliable – as in credible, as in not some re-hashed internet rumor. Also, a lot of Arabic men share the same half dozen or so names. So Mohammed Atta probably isn’t all that uncommon a name. Hence I’ll need headshots to compare with the government’s pictures of the hijackers)

Flying a Jetliner is not a difficult task once it is in the air. Millions of Americans have played Microsoft Pilot and other flight simulators. One doesn’t need the skills of a military pilot to apply maximum throttle and hit a huge building. The only difficult part would be the navigation, and that could be learned at any flight school – including one in Florida.

The terrorists were well trained and rehearsed. One can assume that they were able to overpower the flight attendants quickly, and then to use them as bait to neutralize the cabin crews. Remember, up until 11 Sep 01, nobody had ever hijacked a plane with the intention of destroying it. Hijackers MO involved extortion for the release of imprisoned compatriots. The cabin crews would have been instructed to do at the hijackers say – so as not to risk the lives of the passengers. Most likely, the hijackers then quickly dispatched the cabin crews.

Kindly produce a credible news story about the assassination attempts on Mr. Dekkers. Again, see the important caveat above.

As for your accusation concerning NORAD- there were hundreds, if not thousands of aircraft in the air at the time of the first attack. How would NORAD identify the plane that eventually struck the Pentagon, decide that it absolutely was a terrorist-controlled flying bomb, and then shoot it down in time. Your expectations of NORAD are quite high.

The plane that struck the Pentagon had a nice clean shot at the side of the building facing an open, gentle rise. The side hit is completely exposed except for a small ATC tower for the helipad. In front of the helipad is an open field and then a series of cloverleafs for various roads. Behind them, the land gently rises as you climb into Arlington National Cemetary and the barracks for the tomb guards.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=803&y=10761&z=18&w=1

This approach is the easiest, as the other approaches are complicated by bridges, overpasses, etc. Furthermore, the fact that one witness said the descent was militarily precise doesn’t mean that it was. Who was the witness, what is their experience, etc?

We know what happened on 11 Sep 01.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Tuesday, Mar. 11, 2003 at 11:52 AM

...shit Fido, it sounds like you were the one doing the training in FLA....
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airborne and ranger qualified.

by systemfailure Wednesday, Mar. 12, 2003 at 1:50 AM

Simple sillyboy, Do you think those were the only units i was in? those were only my combat units.
I was in the military for 8 years. I have served in light and mechanized regiments.
Before i start answering ihave a question for you.
WHAT BRANCH OF THE MILITARY DID YOU SERVE IN?
Did'nt think so, because you didnt answer the question previously...WE'RE ALL WAITING TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY.....

1--is was referring to the states propaganda to influence "programs" like yourself to support the first gulf war.

2--As for Africa, i''ll explain..... My reference was (once again) misunderstood by you

Skeptical simon: Why are we in Iraq and not Africa? Why should we intervene in Haiti and not in Rwanda, Angola or Nigeria? Shouldn't the US or the UN establish criteria that could serve as a guideline for all actions?
Resolutions?
Haiti commanded attention, , not because an elected president was overthrown or because of human rights violations (these happen in many countries throught the world) but because the United States wanted to stop a flood of impoverished immigrants of African origin.
There is also strong opposition to the United States tendency of "selective enforcement",
The United States enforces some of the UN resolutions, while others it virtually ignores.
Turkey's invasion of Cyprus,
Morocco's seizure of Western Sahara,
Israel's invasion of Lebanon and seizure of occuping territories opposed to UN resolution 242 (1967)
and Iraq's invasion of Iran are cases where the Council passed resolutions and did little or nothing to follow up.
WHY DIdn't the united states go to war to enforce these resolutions passed by the UN?
THATS THE POINT (just helping ya out)
In the crises like the Gulf War, Somalia and Haiti, the United States has asked the Council for resolutions that would authorize it to carry out military operations by itself or in alliance with token forces from other countries.
The Council is supposed to be a multilateral agency, not a sanction for unilateral action.

3---Which body in the UN acts as a check or balance on the Security Council? I’ll wait.

The Council has 15 members-- five permanent members and 10 elected by the General Assembly for two-year terms:
Each Council member has one vote. Decisions on procedural matters are made by an affirmative vote of at least nine of the 15 members. Decisions onsubstantive matters require nine votes, including the concurring votes of all five permanent members.
This is the rule of "great Power unanimity", often referred to as the "veto" power.
Under the Charter, all Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council. While OTHER COUNCILS (ad hoc groups, committees, etc) of the United Nations make recommendations to Governments for reforms, the Security Council alone has the power to take decisions which Member States are obligated under the Charter to carry out

4--Where and when did you EVER see a US special operations soldier poison a water supply?

The Sunday Herald, a Scottish newspaper, last September reported that the United States and its allies deliberately destroyed Iraq's water supply and in the nine years since have deliberately prevented it from being repaired by keeping out the equipment and chemicals necessary.
"A George Washington University professor has obtained a seven-page document, prepared by the Defense Intelligence Agency,
The United States and its allies destroyed the water system. The Sunday Herald reported that eight multipurpose dams were repeatedly bombed, smashing the infrastructure for flood control, municipal and industrial water storage, irrigation and hydroelectric power.
Four of Iraq's seven major pumping stations were destroyed, as were 31 municipal water and sewage facilities.
During allied bombing campaigns on Iraq the country's eight multi-purpose dams had been repeatedly hit, simultaneously wrecking flood control, municipal and industrial water storage,
irrigation and hydroelectric power.
Four of seven major pumping stations were destroyed, as were
31 municipal water and sewerage facilities - 20 in Baghdad,
resulting in sewage pouring into the Tigris. Water purification plants were incapacitated throughout Iraq. Water-borne diseases in Iraq today are both endemic and epidemic. They include typhoid, dysentery, hepatitis, cholera and polio (which had previously been eradicated), along with many others.
A child with dysentery in 1990 had a one in 600 chance of dying - in 1999 it was one in 50.
The then US Navy Secretary John Lehman estimated that 200,000 Iraqis died in the Gulf War.
Dr Levenson estimates many thousands died from polluted water.
So theres your answers to you rhetoric.
Looking forward to hearing your insults again,
signed a real patriot.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Wednesday, Mar. 12, 2003 at 9:16 AM

Well, let's see what we have:

First point. Military service:

Enlisted Cleveland MEPS April 1985.
Basic / AIT Harmony Church, Fort Benning August – November 1985
MOS’ 11B2HP 19K20
Units of assignment (Active): 1/504 PIR; 3rd US Infantry; 1st Special Warfare Training Group.
Units of assignment (Reserve): 1/148 INF, 1/147 INF (later armor), 1/125 INF, and currently.

Now enough about me. Let’s see how your answers went.

Question One:

You made a claim that our involvement in the Gulf War was, in part, dependant upon the government of Kuwait democratizing their system. You went so far as to claim that there was an UN resolution which stated such. You were asked for documentation. You have failed to provide this documentation. Your point is unproven.

Question Two:

You claim that the United States has been inconsistent in when it chooses to use force to enforce UN resolutions. No argument there, it’s true. Historically, and for reasons of Realpolitik, the United States has ignored some resolutions while arguing to enforce others. This has a lot to do with the Cold War and the relationship between the two superpowers and their client states. If you’d take a moment to notice, you’d see that since 11 Sep 01, the current administration is a lot less cynical and very true to its word on foreign policy.

You have answered a question. Thank you.

Question Three:

You claimed, above:

“the whole reason for the UN is that countries act together democratically with a checks and balance system....to prevent fascism.”

And later:

“You should take a political science class at your local high school and you'll find out that the "checks and balance" systems are used to do precisely what you said. "slow things down" so thier is time to debate. The innocent people and children rely on this too...”

These two posts indicate that the author believes there is a functioning system of ‘checks and balances’ built into the UN. I asked you to provide me with the name of the department or organization inside the UN which acts as a check or balance on the Security Council. You chose instead to provide me with the operating procedures of the Council itself. Your point is unproven.

Now, if what you meant in the first place was that the structure of the UN is itself a check to unilateral action on the part of member governments, then you have a point.

However, the counterpoint is that most of the member governments of the UN are despotisms which use the democratic processes of the UN to prevent interference in their domestic and regional affairs. A despotic regime can do pretty much what it wants to its own people, and the UN will be unable to respond in a timely fashion. This institutional inertia allows despots the time to consolidate their positions or, in this case, finish their military preparations.

Question Four:

You made the claim that water was poisoned by “a special ops soldier”. This implies the application of toxins to water supplies. You were asked to provide proof of having seen or even heard of US troops doing such a thing, and you could not.

What you provided instead is a record of the bombing of dams and water plants which occurred during the Gulf War. Equipment to repair these facilities would not be on the list of items banned by the relevant UN sanctions. Should these facilities not be repaired, it is the fault of the Iraqi government, not the US government. Furthermore, you didn’t provide a hyperlink to your story from Scotland. Here is one:

http://www.mobtown.org/news/archive/msg00885.html

Funny thing, though. Your timeline is a little off. You claimed that the article appeared in the Sunday Herald in September of last year. That would be September of 2002. In the byline of the article it says September 17, 2000. The article also claims that the problem is that the United States government had put on hold a number of contracts for the purchase of “purification chemicals, chlorinators, chemical dosing pumps, water tankers” Golly, I wonder why the US government would want to stop the Iraqis from receiving chlorinators and chemical dosing pumps? And is the entire world’s water supply dependant on American companies’ supplying them? I sure hope no plumbers retire, or the world may very well die of dysentery.

Your point is unproven. Worse than that, your earlier assertion is a damnable slander against the US Special Ops community.
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Nice simon

by Scottie Wednesday, Mar. 12, 2003 at 1:03 PM

Nice work.. pity that logic makes pretty slow headway against most of these guys with the modern media and protest system it is mindless repeating of emotive lies that scores the most points
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You are the lying sack of shit simon

by systemfailure Thursday, Mar. 13, 2003 at 1:23 AM

First of all, if you would have read my assessment of what happens in war, you would have understood my analogy of what actually happens in war.
Its interesting that you claim to be a special forces soldier and dont even know that the
designator MOS is 18 series.
In Panama, I worked with quite a few "Delta" soldiers, that would eat your sorry ass alive if they found you were lying.
Your still in the reserves "eh?" Havent been called up to join the other 300000 soldiers in the gulf.
Your lack of understanding tells me that you have never been in combat, though you have been in the army for (?) years.
You are a lying sack of shit and im sorry that i even got in this discussion with some fool that has to
lie about where he has been and what he has done.
You go back a jack off to your soldier of fortune magazines.
Here's a question only a special ops soldier whould know, what is hidden behind the left lapel of your class A uniform?
SIgned,
a real combat veteran that has been there and done that.
ps
you make me sick.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Thursday, Mar. 13, 2003 at 8:02 AM

First Point:

At no time did I ever say I was a special forces soldier. I attended SFAS in November 1991, and was a medical drop (blown Achilles tendon). I was re-enlisting at the time on the 18X program, and when I was dropped was re-assigned to the 1st Special Warfare Training Group.

Second Point:

My MOS’ are 11B2HP and 19K. 19K is the M1 tanker MOS. In the early 1990’s my unit (A Co. 1/147 INF) went through armor transition. I attended MOS training at Gowen Field Idaho, then returned for the Tank Commanders’ course and second phase of BNCOC.

In case you are wondering what the H identifier is on my 11B, it is the instructor suffix. I was an instructor at the MDW Air Assault School.

Third Point:

Nice try, Lob dick, but you’re still a mortar maggot – and a mechanized one at that.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Thursday, Mar. 13, 2003 at 9:04 AM

"First of all, if you would have read my assessment of what happens in war, you would have understood my analogy of what actually happens in war. "

Kindly explain what the hell this incoherent crap means as well.
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You are a buster, simon

by systemfailure Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 3:57 AM

Let me start with a simple (simon) question, try not to fuck it up.
Here it is are you ready?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN ARMED COMBAT WITH A UNIT IN THE UNITED STATES MILITARY?
ps
nice attempt to get out of your lie saying you were with the 1st special warfare training group
(i know you wanted me to assume you were a trainer in the group) thats why you put "active".
--
nice to have a wanna be infantryman bagging on another infantryman.
If you only knew the places I have been....
The next 3 years after "i got out"..........
Ever hear of "America International" (wink wink)
Ya see, in my youth of stupidity, I was once a program like yourself...(and i was good at it too)...until I got wise to the real situation for the world..
You can eat shit and suck a dick you lame - ass tanker.
ha ha
Couldnt hang with the SF eh? You probally failed the land nav. course.
signed
a true defender of the constitution.
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Simple

by Simple Simon Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 8:16 AM

In answer to your query, no, I have not been in combat. I ETS'ed for the first time in Aug 89, and missed Panama by 5 months. I volunteered to go to the Gulf in '91 and was assigned to training Coast Guard reservists who had been called up instead.

There was never any attempt at deception on my part concerning my military record. If you'd like, I'll gladly cut and paste the relevant passages. The word 'active' denotes all units I was assigned to while on active duty. The word 'reserve' denotes all units I was assigned to while on reserve status.

You have accused me of attempting to deceive. You either cannot read or choose to see things that are not there. I don't care which. Retract your accusations.

My, how far you've come. Pudgy Anarchist - nice job title.
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OneEyedMan

by KPC Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 1:35 PM

Fido, you lying eunuch...I have seen you claim to be a combat soldier in response to others claims of combat experience...you intentionally misled...Clit-on must be a hero of yours after all...
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I imagine...

by Diogenes Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 1:48 PM

... can create any military record he needs for his current spin. Company Clerk?
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Simple

by Simple Simon Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 1:55 PM

KPC, I have said that I am a combat soldier. This is my title. 11B - Combat Infantryman. This separates me from 11/12ths of the Army who are non-combat soldiers. I have NEVER claimed to have been in combat.

If you feel that you have been misled, kindly produce the relevant quotes. If there is evidence that indicates I attempted to deceive, I will gladly apologize.
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wow - - mucho macho

by IFY Friday, Mar. 14, 2003 at 5:34 PM

mucho macho men. come on you posers.. kiss and make up already
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Come on

by Scottie Saturday, Mar. 15, 2003 at 4:06 PM

We have to assume you are both being honest.
But what are we trying to prove here anyway? are we setting up a "only military personel can vote" system?
or some military personel can vote more often than others depending on how many bullets they have fired at foreigners?
lets jsut call it a day on this one.
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Popular consent is the death of democracy

by systemfailure Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 4:05 AM

I used to not tell anyone I was a combat veteran.
I was kind of ashamed, and knew that they wouldnt understand the wrongness of battle.
Me n simon got a little carried away in our discussion about the 10 point program.
Honestly, I mean no ill will to simon or any other IMC visitors.
My voice carries an "appeal to authority", because I have seen first hand the unfortunate reprucussions of warfare.
All people have a right to post thier opinions here in a hope that we may find a logical solution to the
"new times" which we all live in. the solution to this crazy "war"
We all may get mad, talk shit, curse, etc
But we are all Americans, debating like they do in congress.
To find a better solution to a better tomorrow.
for the children
for the future
For the future of mynkind.
Please appriciate your fellow americans viewpoints.
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systemfailure

by POIO Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 4:50 AM

I appreciate your statements and agree with the message behind them but i must say i don't really care much for the crap simon spews here, more often then not it just seems like brown-shirt propoganda designed to stiffle opposition. His arguements all seem to have a price tag on them and very rarely (never) do i get the feeling that he sincerly has the best interests of the country at heart. He's obviously not a total idiot, and as such should realize that war will never beget anything but more war. Everything our government is addressing now is a symptom of the real problem that they won't touch that with a 10 ft stick because to do so would mean to admit that they are not infallible, clearly apparent but the moment they admit they have to also admit that to conduct an invasion with US personel on questionable grounds is a very, very wrong thing to do.

So.... I wish simon would shut the fuck up more often then not. He's said what he came to say, all he's doing now is trying to beat his hollow point into peoples head with a hammer, its obviously not working, there is nothing to be gained dwelling on these details.

But thank you for encouraging open discussion and free speech. I suppose i have started to view these brown-shirt types as not-american, and as such i am a lot less open to dealing with their crap.
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