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THOMAS JEFFERSON CALLING: The time for revolution is now

by Publius Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 12:20 PM

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." Thomas Jefferson

THOMAS JEFFERSON CALLING: The time for revolution is now
March 6, 2003 - By John Kaminski
------------------------------------------------------------------------

THOMAS JEFFERSON CALLING: The time for revolution is now 

By John Kaminski, skylax@comcast.net. Watch for John Kaminski’s new book, AMERICA’S AUTOPSY REPORT, to be published soon by Dandelion Books, for sale at www.GoOFF.com.

 "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

 "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." - two quotes from Thomas Jefferson

 Have you noticed? America is on the wrong side of every conflict in the world.

America encourages slavery and economic exploitation, and opposes individual rights and people's self determination - everywhere in the world. And now, with its new hardcore police-state laws, even in America itself.

No more the land of the free and home of the brave. That's long gone. Now it's the land of the financially pulverized and the home of grotesquely overpaid executroids who will say anything for the right price. Lie to anyone, friend or foe. Betray anyone for those thirty pieces of silver. Bribe other countries in order to get them to do things that everybody realizes are wrong. Poison its own soldiers because somebody makes billions getting rid of nuclear waste. Even kill a lot of its own citizens with medicines that are never tested, and protect the vicious felons who distribute these poisons from shattered parents mourning their dead children. Judasland, that's the America we have now.

Americans don't tell the truth to anyone, least of all themselves. And I direct this at not just the government, but also at the American people.

Y'know, it's easy to say we've been victimized by bad schools and coma-inducing TV, disgustingly manipulative movies, and a climate of elitist intolerance reflected in one-sided media versions of history.

It's one thing to be deceived, but it's quite another not to have seen all these crimes that have happened right in front our eyes since the Kennedy assassination. I mean: How stupid are we?

How stupid are we to believe that on one day in 2001, we had no air defenses for the entire Northeast region of the country? And that just happened to be the day when "terrorists" decided to fly four big jetliners into national landmarks. As Gerard Holmgren so eloquently said recently, how stupid are we to believe a conspiracy theory as far-fetched as that, one that was engineered by disaffected Arabs in a cave? See http://www.911-strike.com/debunking.htm

So, yes, we can keep blaming our bad luck and lack of attention to political reality, but let's not forget to blame ourselves in all this. And blame ourselves right now for not already having stopped an entire Congress intent on covering up the most important event of our lives, and then timidly approving the wars of our new dictator who seeks to keep the population deceived with one murderous escapade after another.

How stupid are we to believe all of it? Or any of it?

How stupid are we not to know the stock market crashed months ago and is being propped up by the Plunge Protection Team?



How stupid are we not to know that nothing the Bush Administration says remotely resembles an honest assessment of conditions in the world. All those satanic shills say is designed to ease their task of stealing money from people everywhere.

Recently many high profile Americans have been caught in embarrassing lies. Although the media tries to cover them as best they can, more and more people are noticing that everything the Bush administration says is a spin, and none of it is an honest recounting of actual events.

If Powell and Bush are telling lies now about reasons to invade Iraq - and getting caught at those lies regularly - how are we to know that they weren't telling lies about the demolition of the World Trade Center, when it was considered unpatriotic to question the official version of events?

If they're lying now, what kind of stupid do you have to be to believe they were telling the truth then? Pretty stupid, is what I'd say.

I bet it's just hysterical when Poppy Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld get together and laugh about how efficiently they've ripped off the American people. Cheney can brag that Halliburton, through its Brown & Root subsidiary, had made trillions off all these frequent U.S. military deployments in which his company provides the crappy chow and the tossed-up buildings. With plenty more of those lucrative military support contracts to follow in quick succession. North Korea.

 Philippines. Colombia. You pick the target.

And Bush 41 can laugh right back by bragging about how many anthrax tablets and smallpox doses his new company Bioport has foisted off on the government. It's doesn't matter that they'll never be used by anyone with a scintilla of common sense. The deal is done and the money has been paid. If anyone actually gets the shot, well, that's their tough luck.

For at least a century, the whole world has emulated America, presidents instead of dictators, legislatures instead of secret police. Now America has reverted to the secret police method. Woe to everyone if the world continues to follow America's lead. With its cooked-book capitalism, where nothing is the truth and all but richest suffer, America is leading the world over a cliff, and pushing the world toward that precipice too with weapons that couldn't be surpassed by the devil himself in their high-tech evil.

America stands for total corporate control with no discussion and no dissension, and against meaningful self-expression and common sense ways to ease the burdens of the less fortunate. Virtually no members of Congress oppose open U.S. aggression in dozens of foreign countries. And neither, for that matter, do many foreign leaders, our erstwhile allies, most of whom are on the U.S. bribery payroll.

And America is raising its children in this manner, too, which is why you see so few kids at peace demonstrations compared to the number of people with white hair. Something to look forward to - a totally robotized next generation. But this is far from the most disturbing trend in America today.

More importantly, America is against saving the environment, preferring instead to just trash it and then try to make even more money off the cleanup. Focused totally on the bottom line, America practices poisoning the oceans and the jungles of the world on the theory that these places are far away and don't pertain directly to immediate profits.

But almost all of these so-called leaders and a disturbing percentage of the general population applaud these empty lies America uses to ravage the planet. They listen to the TV fascists and believe what they hear. They see themselves getting richer from these selfish, shortsighted policies, without realizing they are becoming immensely poorer.

Most of the rest of the world is beginning to realize that America is against what is morally right and sociologically sound, and in favor of what benefits the its rich controllers at the expense of the poor, no matter how many people these policies kill. In fact, since it happens in so many countries, America seems to prefer policies that kill a lot of people.

Roll that over in your mind. America prefers killing large numbers of people, the more different ways the better.

Afghanistan: 10,000 dead and more dying every day from incredibly high levels of radioactivity that almost certainly came from the U.S. use of nuclear weapons, which of course nobody will admit using. All of those people were, of course, innocent of anything except trying to eke out a hardscrabble living in a spot where a bunkerbuster bomb happened to be dropped.



Iraq: 1.5 million dead in 10 years from illegal bombing by the U.S. and Britain, but the truly heartrending part is all the children that have needlessly died because sadistic sanctions kept basic medicines from doctors treating kids with very ordinary illnesses. It is for this most Americans deserve to go straight to hell.

Colombia: Now they drop the poison rain to get the peasants to move off land that American corporations want to develop, a fine climax to 30 years of war America has waged through its proxy goons while nobody in the U.S. noticed.

 Remember: America has armed troops in 40 different countries, and all this horrific stuff is going on there, too. How many Guatemalan peasants are buried in the mud of unmarked graves because American corporations wanted to prevent a "Communist" threat?



Remember: Bush set up a secret government and didn't even bother to tell the Democrats. And now he laughs at millions of people opposing his policies in the streets, and calls them "a focus group" not to be trusted.



America insists upon one set of permissive rules for itself, and another set of restrictive rules for everybody else, which is why it refuses to allow itself to be ruled by the auspices of any world court. This is clearly a racist elitism, a plantation mentality, a neverending extension of the continuing colonialist rape of the world.

 America looks down its nose at the rest of the world. Any legitimately unbiased world court would find America guilty of innumerable counts of tyranny in a heartbeat. In fact, the list of indictable offenses, acts of aggression, extortion, espionage, violations of the Geneva Accords and crimes against humanity would probably occupy such a world court indefinitely into the foreseeable future.



That day will come. When the playing field of the world gets leveled, as it inevitably will, America faces and endless succession of war crimes charges in just about every country on earth, from rapes in Okinawa to mass murder by smallpox injection in the Congo.

Which is just what Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamed was saying the other day at the summit of Non-Aligned Nations in Kuala Lumpur. The ".uncertainties of today's world are due not to 'a clash of civilizations' between the West and Islam, but to a revival of the old European trait of wanting to dominate the world. The expression of this trait invariably involves injustices and oppression of people of other ethnic origins and colours. It is no longer just a war against terrorism. It is, in fact, a war to dominate the world."



How many Americans have asked: What right does America have to say other countries may not have weapons to defend themselves equal to what America has? Did some God appoint America to rule the world? Are we to believe the black quisling Condoleezza Rice when she says America has the best interests of the world at heart?



Many Asians, wrote journalist Andre Vltchek, feel that it is not just the UN that Bush threatens to make irrelevant. It is the entire world that is not white, the entire world that strives to remain culturally different and opposes the world order and one-way globalisation.



How could it be that a country that made its reputation on democracy and individual liberties is now an inflexible totalitarian system bent on bringing every person on earth under its oppressive fist, either through irresistible bribes to corrupt leaders, outright invasions, or the imposition of devastating financial shackles through that economic shell game known as the International Monetary Fund?



It's a simple answer, really.



America has never been a legitimate democracy and is not one now. From many of the founding fathers who argued against unbridled democracy during a time where less than a quarter of its citizens were authorized to cast a vote, through two centuries of continuing consolidation of power by corporate interests, the legends that anyone can rise to be president or the U.S. is a real system of one person/one vote have been exposed as populist myths, imbedded in an entire curriculum of myths that have led the populace to believe that America is an honest and just nation.



For many years, to those in other countries under the yoke of barbaric dictators, the U.S. seemed - from far away - to LOOK like a democratic system, with all its ceremonial rituals of supposedly representative government, with its Constitution and Bill of Rights. But a closer look - for most, limited to the writings of many poorly publicized and little known social critics - has always revealed a superficial democratic sideshow masking the same inhumane system of bribery and extortion that rules all nations.



Now, once again, the world is being shown the real deal.

Once known as the world's greatest democracy, America still pretends to preach a gospel of freedom, but look at its allies: blatant tyrannies which survive on American payoffs and rob and kill their own people. These police state allies are always headed by puppet dictators who are approved and appointed by American business interests. Just look at proposed U.S. plans for a future Iraqi "democracy," to be temporarily headed by a former American general. Most Americans can't even recall the number of times the U.S. has tinkered with Iraqi "democracy" in the past.

 It's easy to see all this if you just look, but the vast majority of American choose not to.

 You simply have to observe how America must bribe its so-called allies to get them to go along with repressive policies. America thinks it can buy its friends. What a horrible price we shall all pay for this in the future. Imagine the resentment building in every corner of the globe as people realize they are not allowed to think for themselves in order to continue receiving pathetic pittances of America's trickle down largesse. Ask the once-middle-class families now living in the streets of Argentina about this.



America attempted to solve the crisis in the Middle East by giving billions of dollars to Egypt in exchange for a promise not to invade Israel. The majority of Egyptians disagree with this policy, but Egypt's leaders have instituted a police state that prevents people from expressing their own beliefs. America funnels trillions to Saudi Arabia while a majority of that country's citizens chafe under an inflexible, capricious dictatorship that spends a lot of money in Monte Carlo.

This is the kind of "democracy" the U.S. now wishes to inflict on Iraq. America wants to create another flunkie regime to do its bidding, another fake democracy to advance the anti-democratic cause of American banks and oil companies. Just like the fake democracy in America.

America has bombed Iraq for 13 years and claimed it is not at war. Now, it prepares to obliterate the entire population of that country simply to steal oil fields and provide a better supply of water for Israel. And to gain a staging area for invasions of other countries.

 America enthusiastically endorses the genocide of the Palestinian people knowing full well Israel is an illegal entity forced on the indigenous inhabitants against their will, just like many other Mideast nation-states.

 America is now ready to invade Colombia after supporting the destruction of the people for three decades so it can better control the importation of oil and cocaine. This aggression will likely explode over the borders into neighboring countries.

America uses business executives to bribe the people of Venezuela to overthrow their own democratically elected government, and claims it is advocating democracy.

America continues to support corporate-connected dictators is most Central American countries, and resorts to mass murder when popular movements agitate for justice for poor people. America is so proud of this longstanding colonialist policy that it promoted one of the chief executors of this strategy, John Negroponte, to U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, sending a message to the whole world that it intends to treat all other countries just Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador: either accept corporate control over your slavery or you'll wind up face down in the mud.

 America is sending troops to the Philippines to suppress a popular uprising that seeks democratic control over a corrupt government that is totally subservient to U.S. business interests. No wonder Muslim idealists want to get rid of it.



America even manages to make the Taliban look good. The fundamentalist Muslim fanatics had all but wiped out poppy production, but now, thanks to the new American-backed government, under the tutelage of new Republican DEA chief Asa Hutchinson, it's thriving and Afghanistan now the world's No. 1 producer of heroin that finds its way to the streets of Europe.

 You can't argue that these international intrigues are necessary for America's economic survival when $4.5 TRILLION has gone missing from the federal coffers in Washington in just the last two years with no explanation. The basic situation in Washington is that a cabal of petronazis has managed to change all the laws in order to facilitate the greatest robbery in human history, which is now underway.



I could go on, of course, but the questions I get most are: What to do? Unfortunately, I keep coming with what not to do.



Don't send petitions to your elected representatives. Most of them are involved in the robbery, and have no interest in liberating American citizens from corporate totalitarianism because they making too much money taking bribes. Even many of the ones who say they do really don't; they're just placating voters. Ask the people who write letters to phony shills like John Kerry and Diane Feinstein; they never get an answer that isn't some kind of vacuous form letter.

Impeachment attempts? Give me a break. Same deal. Virtually the entire Congress is on the take. Were any congressperson to back an impeachment, he or she would be jeopardizing their own criminal income from the corporate conspiracy. When the day of retribution comes, all elected representatives and senators who either voted for the Patriot Act or took contributions from Enron should automatically be thrown in jail, and held indefinitely under terms of the Patriot Act for consorting with known terrorists (in this case, George W. Bush and Kenneth Lay).

Still, in thousands of e-mails, that big question keeps coming: What will we do to keep from becoming residents of Camp Ashcroft?

Well, here's your answer.

 Overthrow the government - NOW.

We must overthrow the government. There is no other choice. Nothing else will work. Could it be more obvious?

We can't use violence, because real humans would be crushed by all the hellish weapons arrayed against the entire world by the military industrial complex that has stolen all our money and erased all our rights under the Constitution.

Besides, it is illegal under what's left of the Constitution to advocate the VIOLENT overthrow of the government. And I would never dream of advocating any such thing.



It is, however, patently legal and indeed our patriotic duty to advocate the peaceful overthrow of the government.

We have to overthrow the government, just like Jefferson said, in a fit of moral outrage, using every bit of our wits and our influence to put these people who are in the process of destroying everything we hold dear in jail. For a long time, if not forever.

We must demand the president and his evil entourage resign and present themselves for criminal indictments before a newly constituted citizens court that is not influenced by the big bucks of big business.

We need to restore America to the republic it was designed to be and the democracy it claims to be.

What?! Are you going to wait for the next election? The elections are all fixed by electronic voting machines and corporate media that actually change the way people think.

The Congress must resign as well, and most of them are eligible for indictment, too. Anyone who voted for the first Patriot Act without reading must be charged with treason, for destroying our rights without cause, and anyone who has ever taken a campaign contribution from Enron (or any of a host of other criminal corporations) must be charged with corruption and receiving stolen property, namely, the people's money.

And of course the entire judiciary must resign, and a new judiciary reappointed by the new government.



All this doesn't have to happen all at once. That would probably be unworkable.

Somebody else can figure out how to conduct new elections - without the electoral college - later. The first thing to be done is to remove the cancer immediately, before it's too late. There are enough responsible people in America to decide democratically what kind of interim administration should coordinate a transitional government until new elections can be called.

There are also a very few responsible existing legislators like Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich who can help facilitate the transition.

There are those who would protest that this is too radical an idea, too big to be considered, too shocking to ever gain a hold in the popular imagination. But I submit there is nothing else to be done. We must demand they resign and make it stick. Otherwise, we are lost. Because there is no fixing this corrupt system. And to not fix it is to throw away the future of the human species.



This is a preposterous idea, you undoubtedly sputter and fume. How could it possibly work, you inquire incredulously?



Here's how.



Twenty million people converge on Washington and demand the resignation of the entire government, that's how. I'd like it to be on July 4, 2003, but it can't be, because all those phony politicos are out of town fishing or in Vegas gambling our money away, or wherever.



We have to catch them actually in Washington, Congress in session, President in the White House, Cheney in his bunker or wherever he actually hangs out. Responsible representatives must serve them with subpoenas and arrest warrants.



We have to mob our nation's capital with so many people that they will have no alternative but to step down.



And there has to be so many people that they can't even contemplate arresting anyone. I mean, where are you going to detain 20 million people.



Why 20 million? I don't know the right number, but I know one million isn't enough, because there have been several million-person gatherings - Farrakhan's, the Moms, the Christian guys - and they barely elicited a ripple from the establishment.



So it has to be a number that will be absolutely impossible to ignore. Twenty million, I figure, should do it.



Where would everyone stay? And what would they eat? I submit the African-American community will take us in, assist us, lead us in strategically positioning ourselves all over Washington so that the disgusting perps can't get away. Plus, with such an outpouring of people from all over America, I believe the cops would come over to our side, the side of the people, against the side of the tyrants. After all, cops really aren't tyrants; they're people too.



It's not impossible. Hell, they're are 20 million people in metropolitan New York; there have to be 50 million in the greater Northeast alone. But if this thing were really to come down, people would come from everywhere. The U.S. population is 290 million. Hell, 20 million is less than 10 percent, but I think it would be enough to get their attention, shut down the entire Northeast Corridor and force the corrupt sociopaths to call it quits.



The reason I think this will actually work is the makeup of people I've seen at protests all across the land. The protests have not consisted of a single age, ethnic or religious group; not a single race or political splinter group. There has been a tremendous cross-section of the American population, and I think this augurs positively for 20 million to come to Washington and simply demand that the criminals step down and submit to the charges of people's warrants for treason and obstruction of justice, among many others.



Can we get 20 million? Maybe not. However, as conditions continue to deteriorate in this country and more people find themselves kicked to the curb after the stock market really crashes, I think it's realistic to expect this many people to want to participate.



If we can't get 20 million, maybe 10 million will do. And if we can't get enough to keep the cops from locking up all of us, well, then there was never any hope anyway. We might as well be arrested on the streets of Washington as wait in our homes for them to come and get us.



We use their own disgusting labels against them, categorizing politicians like they're now segregating airline passengers into red, yellow, and green classes. The green ones get to help us, the yellow ones get subpoenas and the red ones go right to jail. We should let that fabulous class of black rappers, who have been righteously commenting for so long on the infernos that are our cities, do the categorizing.



Among the provisions in this operation to be designed would be a one-step lockup process, much like they use for illegal immigrant roundups, that would funnel the most egregious governmental criminals right into a holding cell for a little diesel therapy. This group, of course, would include the president and his cabinet.



All of these people need to be held under the provisions of the Patriot Act, for which they themselves voted, which would deny them bond, access to counsel, or family visits, until an investigation into their crimes was completed. Yes, that could take a long time.



Think a revolution of unbridled moral outrage, really the only response that is called for by caring humans in our present situation. 

So, people have asked me what to do. This is what we must do.



And we need to do it while we still can, because if they pass many laws like the two Patriot Acts, the opportunity to do it will be gone forever.



Let me ask you one question. Have you considered what will happen if we don't do this? As dangerous as this idea is, it's more dangerous not to do. They're already picking off people one at a time. A lawyer in New Mexico gets busted for saying in a chatroom that Bush is out of control.

A guy in a bar in South Dakota gets three years in jail for telling a joke about a burning Bush.



Those people languishing in Guantanamo for two years had nothing to do with the Taliban and were rounded up by Pakistani police on a bounty system so Rumsfeld could feel like a tough guy keeping innocent people in jail without having to bring them to trial.



The long ago words of Ben Franklin are appropriate here: "We either all hang together or we all hang separately." That's the way it is in a revolution.



As it stands now, America has no respect for anybody or anything, human or holy. America doesn't even respect itself, because it's too busy screwing people to steal their money and their resources.



The sad fact is - one which we will learn to our peril if not ultimate destruction - is that you can't respect yourself if you don't respect everybody else. So it's obvious America doesn't even respect itself anymore, because it sure doesn't respect anybody else in the world.



America is at war with the entire world. And most Americans choose not to believe it, even though it's happening right in front of their eyes. And as we speak, Americans are becoming the real victims of a tyranny they have permitted to grow to truly ominous proportions.



It's time to do something about it. Although massive logistical problems and ad hoc legal procedures need to be developed, this would work, I think. And Thomas Jefferson would like it a lot.

****

John Kaminski is a writer who lives on the coast of Florida and believes in an America that guarantees liberty and justice for all, not just for those with the right fascist political connections and enough money to buy their way out of trouble and still get good government jobs. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Looks like time to consider things.

by Diogenes Friday, Mar. 07, 2003 at 5:21 PM

The noose is tightening - on us.
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Damn right!

by Sheepdog Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 7:06 AM

This is a fine post. I'm bumping it.
Why didn't we just stay in occupation of
the White House when we had it surrounded
durring the 15 Feb demonstration? More people
perhaps.
9-11
What Really Happened
?
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Lot of truth in this

by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 10:03 AM

Bump

Although, to criticize a point or two, I question how effective non-violence would be towards a permenant solution. However, if we could just get 20 million people in the right place at the right time, I'm confident the rest would work itself out.

I also say that the police should be trusted only with most severe caution. They can be bought off just like the politicians, and sometimes they just get so drunk with power that their actions defy logic even in the absence of bribes and payoffs. And their technical job description has become so mangled that the letter of the law is sure to state, somewhere, that they are required to stop us in one fashion or another for the sake of protecting the wealthy. To assume that they're a) clean, b) sane, and c) willing to defy an immoral law or laws is a substantial assumption.

I also question how much or how long the african american DC community would welcome the presence of 20 million people from around the country in their homes and living rooms. I'm sure they want change as much as we do, but 20 million strong is a hell of a crowd, requiring much in the way of food, water, shelter, and basic provisions that many of the community is probably already short on. I think a more realistic approach would be for everyone to bring shelter for themselves and one or two others, or many more if its financially feasible for the individual. Food should be accumulated the entire journey to DC, with an emphasis on canned goods and other non perishables. Also, of the 20 million, some portion of such should constantly be on food/water runs to the outlying areas. I would say its safe to assume almost anyone would be willing to provide water, but trusted individuals should be watching it come out of the tap.

Also, I think to plan on just arriving and squating until the assholes leave is perhaps a little unrealistic. But, what if we showed up, and our agenda from the onset was the effective dismantling of these peoples' places of work. I'm not suggesting destruction. I'm saying lets drag their desks, cabinets, all furniture and equipment out into the front lawn. If space becomes a factor, as i'm sure it would eventually, we could start giving the stuff away to whoever is willing to carry it away.

Any violence, or theft of any non-government property should be dealt with harshly and promptly as it would quickly discredit the entire venture and such actions have a tendency to turn into a riot. I am not sure what would be best to weed out the trouble makers. Perhaps some sort of nontoxic indelible flourescent orange spray paint. Then word could be spread that anyone painted bright orange is to be pushed out of the group by everyone. Perhaps picked up and carried off in fashion similar to crowd surfing at concerts and such. Stringent self-policing would go a long way towards police co-operation. If paint runs low, perhaps we could start cutting off peoples earlobes to 'tag' them, though I would certainly hope that could be avoided.

Also, while I typically feel many of these 'terrorist activity warnings' are a bunch of shit, and i feel that our administration coordinated 9/11... terrorists do exist, america does have its enemys, and they would certainly view such chaos as a ripe opportunity. Also, petty theft and vandalism seems quite likely on a nationwide scale. Riots will probably break out in numerous cities. So, anyone who wants to help but does not come to DC should do everything in their power to help keep the peace on a state level. That means additional civil forces guarding our water supplies, our medical facilities, and other major public resources. If the smart, strong, motivated individuals are on their way to DC that's likely to leave nothing but a bunch of dumb drunk assholes looting and pillaging around the home front. Someone needs to keep them in check.

For the duration of the action, most popular media / sporting events should shut down. Such crowds are ripe targets, and very likely to turn into counter-productive rioting. And who really wants to go watch basketball or the dixie chicks or whatever in the middle of the revolution anyways.

DO NOT OVERTHROW YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT. As far as i can tell, its the federal government that has really gone sour. State wide action is not necessary and counterproductive to the overall goal of extracting the corrupt eye of the pyramid. This should be emphasized repeatedly to everyone. DO NOT OVERTHROW YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT. Once the federal government has been extracted, there will be plenty of time to weed out the bad apples on a state level. So again, DO NOT OVERTHROW YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT.

Thats all for now. Suggestions anyone?
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Simple

by Simple Simon Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 10:13 AM

Medication.
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Yeah

by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 10:16 AM

Well the immediate end of the War on Drugs would be an early imperitive, so... yeah.

I'm not taking their brain frying prescription compliance though, fuck that.

And fuck you. Fuck you very much asshole.
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Put the politicians out to pasture

by MyzTek Traveler Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 10:26 AM

Excellent thinking Mr. P.O. in OH,

Not to seem to critical of your thoughts here, but I think more would be accomplished by simply carrying the people who comprise the federal government into the front yard and refusing to grant them access their offices or any other government facility. Leave the furniture where it is, perhaps it can be auctioned later to pay for the construction of the new government. Documents will be contained in those desks and cabinents, documents which must be protected as they may be evidence of crimes against the people of the United States. Under your proposal, many if not most of these documents might be lost or destroyed. Looting the "government property" would be likely to be as damaging to the movement as would looting of "private property."

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Yes, but...

by Pissed Off in Ohio Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 10:43 AM

In regards to just dragging the assholes out onto the lawn, i think that's a bit unrealistic. The worst of them will scury into their deepest holes like roaches under a fridge, immediately. And the rest should not necessarily need to be dragged out into (and left to the unchecked mercy of ) an angry mob. Thats dangerous.

Most of them will have destroyed their most sensitive evidence much earlier anyways. And we already know which ones are dirty (damn near all of them). And to expect to retain every bit of paperwork, or even a vast majority of it, presents several substantial logistical problems, especially when considered in the context of a torch toting angry mob storming the proverbial castle.

Perhaps it could be established as protocol that all computers are to have their hard drives removed by a special team of first-in commando nerds and saved for later data recovery attempts (they will have been freshly wiped, though probably ineptly).

Also, its entirely possible that we could leave the papers and such in the offices, and remove just the furniture. Just dump it all out on the floor and leave it there. We can come get it later, though the top layer may get trambled a little (oh well). We'll just be sure to remove/destroy any shredders sooner than later.
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Choke points

by Sheepdog Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 11:54 AM

A frontal confrontation should not be viewed as the only tactic.
Should the enemy decide to use its military police arm
(remember the assault visited upon the petitioners for
WW I bonuses ) we should devise strategies to freeze any
ground movement of WACO type psycho's into the area for
new 'non lethal' crowd suppression weapon systems. That means rail lines airports and transportation corridors.
Also, there need to be concerted efforts to leaflet and
organize local support.
We fairly well know that the new shadow government will
quickly activate to coordinate a violent counter revolution even in the face of peaceful, passive occupation. These are real problems. Only by enlisting the members of the active
military do we have any chance of averting a bloodbath.
We don't want civilians hurt, just criminals in cages.
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rebump

by Sheepdog Saturday, Mar. 08, 2003 at 12:54 PM

In the mean time we must stir as much
outrage against the enemy as possible by
redoubling our collective and individual
efforts to bring to light the events
surrounding 9-11. We can use their own
propaganda and national rage to our advantage.
This 'event' they might find, is a double edged sword.
9-11
What Really Happened
?
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I am not old

by Sheepdog Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 12:01 PM

I write goth poetry so I will look deep
And I love nude and hairless Chinese boys
to fuck
and to eat.
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bump

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 3:10 PM

wow sheepdog you like to molest and eat young chinese boys too?!? apparently thats becoming quite the rage. I'm so surprised too, any of your posts that are longer than 2 lines seem to imply a totally different person. go figure.
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Lordy

by lancer Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 7:54 PM

Some sick puppy is focused on Sheepdog and seems to be into
chinese food. Could be the dog is perceived as a threat? I agree on the revolution idea, this country is going to hell
on roller skates down hill and the pace is accelerating with
the insane presidential decrees nailing this countries freedoms into the ground. Time to buy a firearm I guess.
Would like to use the little deviant shit head nick stealer as target practice though. A 30-30 maybe? My uncle says it hits like a freight train.
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Sounds a little too quick and painless to me

by Pissed Off in Ohio Sunday, Mar. 09, 2003 at 10:58 PM

But you can shoot someone with a .22 all day.
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bump

by Pissed Off in Ohio Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 6:10 AM

*does the bump dance*
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I'm back

by Sheepdog Monday, Mar. 10, 2003 at 10:27 AM

Thanks, Mr. PIOI. I was going to bump this myself with some further
comments anyway.
Are americans cowards?
Mostly they (we) are. We never saw death visited upon our people by waves of hostile armies devastating our factories, transportation systems, water systems, power systems, hospitals, schools and homes. We have always been able to say “this is terrible” when some event brings death to a small group ( 3000 innocents is a small amount of death compared to the horrendous death toll our armies and policies have caused on every corner of the world even if one is so stupid to believe it was a surprise
attack and not a contrived criminal enterprise ) and we throw up our hands whimpering in wonder at how anything like this could ever happen
never wanting to actually confront the questions or demand answers to
the real reason things like this happen.
We have our entertainment/propaganda industry keeping the majority of
sheep convinced of our god given supremacy and righteousness to visit
terror upon others while we sit at home and eat the poisoned food and water given to us by corporations only intent upon profits and unbridled
avarice while the social contract in their charters remain deliberately
ignored or violated.
We have our own terror right here as the forces of the government we no
longer control, burn and murder the few who are viewed as internal
resistance or even just plain incidental victims used to further an agenda
and the circumstances are never truly investigated as the entertainment/propaganda show goes into full swing to distract and white wash the true nature of the event.
This is old news to the ones who have followed the carnage home
grown here in the land of the free
Ask any black youth in one of the numerous areas occupied by hostile
armies (gun happy police) or american natives murdered by the gestapo
(FBI) or religious communities burned to death or individuals targeted for
knowing to much or resisting the criminal advances of a psychotic federal
authority.
So what is to be done?
We have to bypass an already discredited mass media by a grass roots
effort to rub salt into the latest wound brought about by these callus
unhuman roach droppings. Make outrage and vengeance the order of the day. Maybe we can force grow a national spine together in anger this time...
Spread the question, demand light, demand the truth.
9-11
What Really Happened
?
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Serious bump

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:23 AM

Bush is now acting as if he has no fear of reelection.
Does he know something we suspect?
It's looking more every day as if the martial law
scenario is in the works.
Wait for it, it's coming.
Are you ready?
Got an escape plan? An escape route with a prepared
'camp' that allows you to regroup with other concerned
citizens? Communication strategies?
Food ammo and medical supplies?
suggested items.
Radiation and microwave detection devices.
Water filtration equipment and non exhaustible fire starting items like a
burning lens.
Good warm camping bags ( I prefer qualfill )
Digging shovels.
Silent weapons, lots of fine wire and thread.
A copy of the escape and evasion manual.
Don't get used to a warm safe bed to sleep in or hide under.
Remember the boy scout motto ‘ be prepared’.
You have been warned.
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In order for your revolution to be successful...

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:46 AM

you'll have to deal with the 70% of the American population that agree with and support our President.

How do you liberals suppose you'll be able to accomplish that? Me thinks it would just be easier to get on a plane to France.

HAR!
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Eric speaks

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:50 AM

Uh, Eric, that might change fairly quickly as the shit hits the fan.
But thank you for your labels and input.
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Well when it does...

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:55 AM

feel free to let us all know. In the meantime, I'll do the same for you.

As far as your comments about Americans being cowards, it's really easy to sit there behind that keyboard and make those statements under that veil of internet anonymity. Why not go out in the street and scream it at the top of your lungs?
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Scream?

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:58 AM

No need.
Got a PA system.
Got this board.
And I've got you. Thanks for the bump.
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That's really brave of you.

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:03 AM

And of course, I'm flattered. You liberals really appreciate me, don't you? It's wonderful to be loved.

I also like all the denial that goes on, every time I call a spade a spade. That's really the true litmus test to know when you're talking to a liberal. They love to deny it. Like Judas and Jesus and that cock crowing thrice. Deny, deny, deny.

Some of these liberals label themselves neocons and act like they're something special. Neocons are liberals of the highest order, but are just too stupid to know it. They become the dupes of the left.

How funny.
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Just feeding your megelomania

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:10 AM

But as you tip over the edge again we all get to see
what a shame it is to see a mind gone into denial.
Just continue with your comfortable labels, I'm sure
they are a good substitute for love and companionship.
Dont feel bad, I understand.
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Yes and that is quite an oversimplification Eric

by Pissed Off in Ohio Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:14 AM

While there may be 70% of the people who *tolerate* whats happening (and i certainly question that percentage. 1 out of every 2 people I speak to is fiercly against this war and dubya), in reality the vast majority of those people are only tolerant of whats happening because they feel it is their patriotic duty to not dissent, and they're taking whatever the media feeds them and digesting and/or ignoring it, and/or they dissent but lack enough of a spine to stand up against the 5-10% of america that tries to browbeat the party line into the sheeps heads. And all that falls down as soon as people start really questioning what happened on 9/11.

So more accurately i would say the percentages look something like:

* 10%-15% fiercly against for the right reasons (bush and his crew setup 9/11, and this war is just the start of the global US invasion)

* 30%-40% against for good reasons, but maybe not the right ones (against pre-emptive strikes, don't feel there's enough of an established threat of iraq to warrant destroying them). Get these people to think about 9/11 more. Encourage them to connect the big blinking dots.


* 25%-35% for or accepting war for the right reasons (patriotic duty, fear iraq is a threat to their safety, etc). They have been misinformed but thats not their fault. Hard to say the best way to convince these people that they're on the wrong side. Don't condemn them, they don't know better. Do encourage them to make up their own minds though, and try to get them to understand the peril of rushing into an action that has never been properly justified by the administration or the press. If they can be swayed to peace or at least delayed violence that is a big step. Don't try to throw all the truth at them at once though, they will label it 'conspiracy theory' and buck against anything you say.

* 5%-10% for the war for the very very wrong reasons (these people are usually whitepower kkk advocates, really. they have teamed up with the bush admin to push this US nazi transformation through. Greed (and the resoration of a "White Nation") is their primary motivator. They are typically the fearest opponents to truth and reality because they are already aware of whats going on. You will never shift these people back to the right side with any amount of logic. You can sometimes emplore their sense of decency to bring some back from whatever twisted world they're in, but a lot of these assholes seem like they're ready to go down with the ship. Acceptable losses. They have made their decision.)

If we can discuss this enough, make it common knowledge as to what really happened (and why) on 9/11, bush will snap. He's close now, there is too much is piling up against him and the brownshirts can't browbeat it all away. Thank god for the internet, it may well save us all.

Thanks for your checklist sheepdog, it seemed very thorough. I did notice the following items missing though:

* Good boots
* Extra Shoelaces
* At least a three pack of decent disposable lighters.

Good luck everyone, we shall overcome this madness.
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Okay, I'll humor you

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:20 AM

Sheepdog thinks I'm a baaa-baaaahhhd boy, what with my over generalizations and frequent use of the word "liberal".

Okay sheepy, why don't you volunteer a little personal information for our audience. Tell us what you consider yourself to be. I for one, am curious. I mean, you sit there behind that keyboard all day, and you just love to respond to my comments for some reason. It's almost as if you're getting paid to do so. But if you're not a liberal and you don't work for imc, then please enlighten us on yourself. We're all very interested.

I mean, I know you claim to have military service, and you have some sort of phallus complex that you overcompensate with by talking a lot about firearms. But other than that, that's all I know of you.

Flesh yourself out a bit for me, won't you?
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Ha Ha

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:23 AM

Oh well, that was predictable.
I’m typing this before you responded.
Sticks & Stones, etc.
Oh and people, it might be a good idea to bring thin sheet plastic for water collection and water proofing.
Optics are good also for observation. I like the gen II soviet night vision
scope. No batteries needed, just give it a shake.
( Eric, you know the term, 'need to know?'; you don't.)
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Uh, Eric...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:23 AM

...besides being completely wrong you are hopelessly naive. None of us who post frequently and vociferously against the criminal cabal in Washington are under any illusion that we have not already been identified and pinpointed, but we still speak.

"You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." - Robert Anson Heinlein
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Gee, the Gallup poll from Ohio has spoken

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:24 AM

I guess POIO has summed it up for us:

Two out of three Ohioans survey are idiots.

Statistics don't lie folks. (Although we do know from previous experience, they can be misrepresented.) Don't vacation in France or Ohio. Where ever that is. Anyone know how to circumsize a boy from Ohio. Kick his siter in the chin.
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Gee how brave you all are Diohomones

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:28 AM

They've been pin-pointed, and yet they still speak out. My heros. After all, as much of a serious threat you all are to the system, and to the very fundamental power structure of this country, I simply don't know how you are all so able to muster the courage!!

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA

LA
LAALAL
ALALALALA
ALALALALALA

LA-LA-LAND.
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Way to get your grammar on there eric

by Pissed Off in Ohio Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:31 AM

Clearly you're at the top of your class. Why don't you tell that shit to the mountain anyways, cause aside from you heich heiling freeper idiots the people here aren't having it. And i'm obviously not a moron. The fact that you would immediately lash out against what i have to say just leads me to the conclusion that you are 'in on it'. But that was pretty obvious anyways.

You worms will not succeed in this. You have been identified, and are actively being opposed. We have the strength of numbers and we are not mindless idiots, like yourselves and the people you are used to browbeating into submission. You guys are incapable of thinking for yourselves and that is your biggest weakness. The people you are following have made promises they can't keep. None of this will work, and you are being led down a path to doom. Repent now, turn your back on those that would manipulate you to their own ends, and fight the good fight while you still can.
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Don't worry, Diogenes

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:32 AM

He gets this way and then calms down.
But SOMETIMES he makes sense.
We can wait.
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You can always tell when you're winning a debate on imc

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:37 AM

because idiots from Ohio start to attack your grammar.

BTW POIO, I counted four grammatical errors in your last post. But who's counting?

Don't go back and try to find them either.

Stop. STOP!!! Oh, I knew you couldn't resist.
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No Problem

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:39 AM

Eric would appear to be lost in some world other than the one in which we live.
The reality is we have a corrupt Government in the thrall of the interests of a handfull of megalomaniacs and their dupes and sycophants.
As to which Eric is? Jury still out.
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"not mindless idiots"

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:43 AM

tell it to the mountains.

(I loved that one.)

Oh, BTW POIO. You've now just made it on the top 500 most wanted list for my secret organization.

www.newamericancentury.org

We've had our eye on you for a while now. But now you've gone and done it. Don't worry. We'll have your sorry ass in our underground dungeon real soon. The iron maiden has been a bit lonely lately.
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Thanks Mr. POIO.

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:43 AM

Good points.
I always assume people do camping and know about the items I
didn't include.
A compass and mirror too.
Can't bring the entire house but these are basics.
Also a good idea to stash a waterproof supply of 'items'
near some iron scrap. (wink)
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yeah ok idiot

by POIO Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:45 AM

At least i don't wrap my mistakes in H1 super-huge text. Is that the only way you have to get your point across to the people you're used to browbeating? Larger text? And the only reason i would criticize your grammar is because the statement itself was condemning my idiocy and the uniform stupidity of everyone in Ohio. How hypocritical. I've met gerbils with more intelligence than yourself. Better conversationalists too (LALALALALALALA <-wtf?).

Anyways, I'm convinced what side you're on eric. You are either a staunch supporter of a whitepower imperialistic amerikkka, or you're 12 years old and believe everything daddy tells. In either case, you need to settle down, take that shit back to the freeper mothership, or just shut up and consider exactly what it is you're standing for, and the only possible way it could work out (many, many dead people. dead innocent people, with america destroyed, lieing in shambles at the hands of the greedy idiots in power now)
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sheepy

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:48 AM

Can I bring my Rambo knife and red rider bee-bee gun. The gun has a compass in the stock. I promise not to shoot my eye out. And the knife has a sewing kit in it. Not too much good for sewing clothes, but it might come in handy if I get a cut and have to stitch myself up.

Oh, and duct tape. Lots of duct tape.
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Come on then!

by POIO Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:49 AM

Lets go assholes! The party is over here!

I'll take a few of you shitstains down with me. And of course i'm hip to the PNAC. Particularly interesting is page 63, first column, second paragraph:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."

Written in Sept, 2000? You greedy murdering assholes.
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"At least i don't wrap my mistakes in H1 super-huge text."

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:50 AM

And the only reason i would criticize your grammar is because the statement itself was condemning my idiocy and the uniform stupidity of everyone in Ohio.



There. You happy now?
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X

by X Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:52 AM

Bush is sickening. And so are all the dumb Americans who support him. Ask any American war supporter why we should go to war... they'll simply repeat whatever they heard Bush say. Ask them to comment specifically on why... they have no answer.

Bush plays on the ignorance of the American public. And he's doin a damn good job of it too. I must congratulate Bush on that aspect. He's perhaps not as dumb as I thought. As for the American people, my god... talk about cattle. I mean geez. You really are the joke of the world.

Here's an example
"Coalition of the Willing"
Bush basically bribed or threatened to cut off aid to those nations who did not support the US so that they would favor the US.

And now it'll only be a matter of time before you hear the Bush cattle saying "we have a coalition" blah blah.
Bush doesn't tell the full truth. And the American cattle are too ignorant and even too racist to question him.

All this talk - tying terrorism to arabs, islam and the middle east,

tying peace to democracy

all plays perfectly into the minds of the American cattle who have been conditioned to think that democracy = peace and that America = 100% good and that Apeasement = Bad 100% of the time and that just because you dont want to fit into global US strategy = you OVERNIGHT turn from being America's best friend, to world's most dangerous man.

dumb americans
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"Page 63"

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 9:57 AM

Oh, now you've gone and done it. You shouln'ta outta said that. OH YOU'RE IN BIG TROUBLE, BUDDY-BOY. BIG BIG TROUBLE.

But if you promise to be good and not post that again, we'll just put you on double secret probation.

But no pledge pins on yer uniform. Got it?
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Dumb Americans

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:01 AM

The damn herd.
Just try not to get swept along with them.
The majority. They have to be kicked before they
wake up.
Can a few million jews (circa 1930's) be wrong?
[ If we're nice maybe they will not notice me? ]
I don't want my kids picking through the rubble
looking for a means of survival.
Ask the people of Germany.
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It is interesting...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:02 AM

...if you step back and just look at things dispassionately for a moment.

I have a friend where I work who is one of the 2 people I know who supports Bush's war. He is a regular Michael Weiner listener (Michael Savage as the little wimp styles himself) and when he talks of the war and support for it he gets this wild glazed look in his eyes. Quite frightening really - the intellect has ceased functioning and he is operating purely reactively and running on the "programming" he has been fed.

Hey Eric - let me guess you are a regular listener to a Clear Channel based Talk Radio PROGRAM right?
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Idea

by Pissed Off in Ohio Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:07 AM

What if, when the shit has finished hitting the fan and getting slung all around the world, and after we finish repealing the 'war on drugs' and releasing everyone in jail now on drug related charges, we replaced those guys with these racist, warmongering, nazi brownshirt assholes? Death seems a little severe for some of them at this point.

I figure at least 10 years for conspiring against humanity. Premeditation can be established via polygraph tests after the fact. Any who have killed or attempted to in the name of their "cause" should be dropped on the spot if credible evidence is undeniable.

And you dicks will never silence me without killing me. And as i've already done numerous times, you are more than welcome to come try and do that. Lets do this thing.
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Mr. POIO

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:21 AM

The offense always is at the tactical disadvantage, once
surprise is lost.
They have to move, need logistical support and a functioning
moral.
This they will lose.
Wait and operate smart.
Che said 'spread em thin'
Hit at the soft points and hide, violence is for the last resort and should not be used unless for defense.
Don't forget, their own methods will discredit any local
support.
Disfuntionalize the weak link, the top of the pyramid.
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Yeah, lock us up and let the druggies out.

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:28 AM

That makes sense. Then these idiots can be all hopped up on ___insert drug of choice here___ while __insert tyrant/dictator of choice here__ just marches his or her (gotta be PC around these liberals) troops over and just enslaves all their whacked out asses.

They won't lock us up. They want us on that wall. THEY NEED US ON THAT WALL.

And they can't fucking handle the truth either.
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wow

by wow Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:31 AM

wow
Jack Nickelson
wow
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The real druggies...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:40 AM

...are running the government. Of course we had ol' Vacuum Cleaner for a Nose Clinton, but that is not what I am talking about.

One in Seven Americans are now on some form of Psychiatric "Medication". If you make an honest comparison between the effects of these chemical lobotimizers and "street" drugs you will find most common street drugs have fewer side effects.

Don't believe me? Probably not I would guess.

Prove it to yourself - here's the test. Pick up a copy of the "Physician's Desk Reference" (PDR for short) and compare the known side effects of any of the top "medications" such as Prozac, Xanax, Zoloft, Luvox, Welbutrin, or Paxil. Seeing is believing.

The war on drugs is a phony war that was D.O.A. with the corrupt government we have. Even if it were desirable to criminalize human frailities, which is stupid way to handle the problem, the corruption has insured it's complete ineffectiveness.

B.A. you must be smoking something really strange if you think that the "War on Drugs" is ever going to be more than a modest imposition on the Drug Industry.

The most intelligent way to handle it is legalization and treatment. Not maintaining price supports for illicit operations by "squeezing" out the competition who won't provide a little "squeeze" to the Border Patrol and their Political Patrons.

If you ever did actually take the time to learn something about the nonsense you spout I fear you might lose what is left of your mind. I think the shock of learning the truth might be too much for your febrid brow.
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I left one thing out...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:43 AM

...when making the comparison between the "medications" and street drugs use Heroin as your comparison.

You will find it to be safer and with fewer side effects.

Don't believe me? Look for yourself.
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That's absurd...

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:53 AM

You liberals always spout the same whimsical, nonsensical blather.

Legalize drugs. Pro-abortion. Anti-death penalty. Blah dee blah blah.

These things are the way they are because of public outcries. Drugs are illegal for a reason. Because people like me want it that way. Abortion is legal for reason too. Because idiots like you want are murders.

We don't always get our way. Life's a bitch, ain't it. Even in America.
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Oh well

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:00 AM

Looks like a long wait for Eric.
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Look at that. Sheepogenes in Ohio's got me standing in line.

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:09 AM

Little does he know. I've got an "Advace to GO, Collect $200" Community Chest card.
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Eric is O for 3

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:13 AM

Well Eric,
I really hate to burst your stereotypes - I know it might cause some confusion for you as you actually start thinking instead of parotting.

A. I am Pro-Life (However I oppose government intervention.)

B. I am neutral on the Death Penalty - if it satisfies your atavistic unreasoned desire for revenge well be my guest. I do lean slightly opposed but only because of the fallibility of the system and the consequent desire to not execute innocent people. Our Legal System suffers from too much corruption to be trusted. Too many Prosecutors have been caught doing "whatever it takes" to get a conviction; including witness intimidation, perjury, and manufacturing evidence.
However, even were those solved, which I do not expect to see in my lifetime, I still would not give a damn - to me it is a non-issue.

C. On drug legalization it would seem your entire rationale is "might makes right". Do you also believe that "the ends justify the means"?

Would you rather take some sort of sick satisfaction in locking people up and creating a vast and profitable Black Market? Or would you rather solve the problem?
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In regards to drug use/legalization

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:24 AM

I have sentiments similar to yours on the death penalty. I could not care less. I am apathetic towards drug users as I, in my infinite perfection, have no illicit drug addictions myself.

But now that I think about it, I definately prefer the "vast and profitable" black market scenario. Like the smoking ban on airplanes, since I don't indulge, I'd rather not have it around me. And I certainly don't want some pot smoking hippie near me, telling me that he/she has every right to do so.

I have no sympathy for those who do drugs, or get busted for doing so. Life's a bitch. You choose, you lose.
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The question ...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:51 AM

...would you rather solve the problem than continue with the current Status Quo.

I am opposed to drug use. I think it is stupid. However, people do many stupid things and many of them are self destructive.

Criminaling simple stupidity does not solve the problem. By and large, and this is just my observation, it just seems to make people more bitter and more intractable.

There are effective drug treatment programs. If only from a simple dollars and sense, if not humanitarian, perspective it costs less money to treat a drug user than to incarcerate them.

With support of effective treatment we win twice.

1. We solve the problem of influx of drugs by removing the demand.

2. We rehabilitate and return to the community a productive individual.

Frankly I prefer winning to constant war.

As well there has been a cost to non-drug users in the so-called drug war - incursions on the civil liberties of non-users.

Don't take my word for it research it yourself.

Dig into the numbers and weigh out the pros and cons.

I am a realist - I do not expect my prose to sway your position - only you have the power to do that.

So, examine the problem and weigh out the solutions.
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,,,

by ,,, Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:55 AM

,,,...
iraqitraining.jpg, image/jpeg, 400x352

error
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The Cowardly Lion...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:59 AM

...is back with more hate Spam.

You are not even annoying - just another coward.
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wow

by wow Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:00 PM

wow
It's S.S.
wow
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War is not the ugliest of things...

by ... Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:02 PM

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
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more absurdity. who cares

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:16 PM

"Criminaling simple stupidity does not solve the problem."

No. But it makes it illegal for it to be around me. I like that.

"There are effective drug treatment programs."

How do you force someone to go to treatment, if what there doing is perfectly legal. By legalizing it, you're condoning it. By condoning it, you're essentially saying that treatment is unnecessary.

Take cigarettes for example. Perfectly legal, provided you of age. That doesn't stop idiots from smoking. And the majority that smoke have no desire to quit, regardless of how good your treatment is. And none of this prevented the idiotic smokers from suing the tobacco industries. And nothing prevented our idiotic liberalized bleeding heart judicial system from awarding those idiots billions of dollars.

Fucked up, ain't it?
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Nor is war always the best solution.

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:25 PM

“The supreme excellence is not to win a hundred victories in a hundred battles. The supreme excellence is to subdue the armies of your enemies without having to fight them”.
- Sun Tzu

“Among the calamities of wars may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.”
- Samuel Jonson

“There is no such thing as an inevitable war. If war comes it will be from failure of human wisdom.”
- Bonar Law

“War does not determine who is right - only who is left.” Anon.

“In peace, sons bury their fathers, in war, fathers bury their sons.” - Herodotus

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom, it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” - William Pitt (The Younger) 1783

“No Man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expediency.” - Theodore Roosevelt
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Earth to Eric

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:28 PM

You still haven't answered the key question: Do you want to solve the problem of just piss and moan in self justification?
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I'm not sure exactly what "the problem" is...

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:47 PM

Apparently you have problems with the fact that usage of certain drugs is illegal. But I don't.

Keeping drug use illegal, keeps it away from me. In my adult life (~15 years) I've had less that 10 people approach me with drugs. That's less than one person per year. Pretty good. And never has anyone approached me with anything accept pot.

When I was a kid, we had to go looking for it. And it wasn't easy to get, when we were able to.

Keeping drugs illegal keeps it out of my sight. And out of my workplace. It keeps it out of my childrens site also. And out of there schools. When it occasionally might wander into their (public) school, it is quite quickly removed and the peddler is quite thoroughly punished. I like that too.

I don't want drug addicts on my street or in my neighborhood. And if one happens to show up there, I want to be able to call the police and have them legally removed. I don't want to hear from the police that "There's nothing we can do sir. It's perfectly legal."

You're trying to convince me that by legalizing drugs, you're going to save me money in taxes. While you're at it, piss on my back and tell me it's raining.

While it's true that I am an over-taxed American, I doubt you, in your infinite wisdom, are going to same me 1 single penny in tax dollars. Trust me, I've heard that before. Every politician since John Adams has been using that line.

Who's going to pay for all these welfare drug rehab programs you're in favor of. Answer: me. And like I said, most drug addicted idiots won't go. And I won't be able to make them. Just like I can't make the welfare cheats in this country go out and get a job. Get real.

You liberals want to "socialize" everything. I mean EVERYTHING. I have no sympathy for addicts. NONE.

And in my opinion, there's no problem. I'm happy. Yes, my taxes are pretty steep, but I just figure that's the price I pay uncle sam for keeping the addicts out of my neighborhood. Streets in my city are clean. No needles. Kids can go outside and play.

Nope. No real problem that I can see.

Sounds like you're the one with the problem.
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Eric you are...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 1:02 PM

... a shallow thinking idiot.

You are simply refusing to look for a solution to the problem because you seem to take some sick gratification in locking people up. Why would you rather lock some one up than rescue them. Would you let a drowning child drown because they were stupid enough to get into water over their head?

Does Freedom disturb you so much.

Legalization does not mean allowing it in public places that is a Straw Man - I believe public drunkeness and public consumption of achohol are misdeameanors in most locales. Your argument has no merit.

It costs about 46,000 dollars per year to lock someone up. It costs less than 15,000 to put someone through the Narconon Program which has an 80% non-recidivism rate. I have not seen recent numbers but the last I was aware of the rate of drug offenders returning to drug use is in excess of 80%. It would seem to me that you are not interested in a solution only your petty venal mean spirited non-solutions of killing and incarceration.

Maybe you want to be a tax-slave but count me out. A solution that costs less money and solves the problem permanently is to my mind the more logical choice.

What is the "logic" for your position?

You are a real piece of work.

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Support the Troops...

by Diogenes Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 1:24 PM

...by bringing them home.
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I'm bored with ad hominems

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 1:41 PM

Gee, I’m such a bad person for not agreeing with you. And stupid too.

That’s what I love about imc. It’s like the big liberal psyop in cyberspace. These idiots ask for your opinion, and then when you give it to them, they badger you and call you an idiot for not agreeing with them, hoping it will somehow change your mind.

You guys keep working at it though. I have noticed how the general mentality of America has been exhibiting a shift in thinking towards the left over the course of my lifetime. I think you guys are making some progress. It won’t be long now and we’ll all be socialists just like you.

“you seem to take some sick gratification in locking people up.”

Absolutely not. I take sick gratification in locking people up that break the law.
“Why would you rather lock some one up than rescue them.”

This is what I’m talking about. You liberals just don’t make any sense. Just yesterday, I was arguing the same thing about the oppressed people in Iraq and you liberals essentially called me a liar, saying “It’s blood for oil”. Now you tell me you want to save people. Well forgive me if I tell you that I don’t buy it.

See, I don’t feel the need to “rescue” ever idiot that walks the Earth from himself. Most drug addicts don’t want to be rescued. In fact, I’d argue that YOU CAN’T rescue a masochist. He can only rescue himself

But you can rescue someone from another. See the situation in Iraq. I mean here, we have the opportunity to go in there and free a nation. And all you liberals want are free drugs and free drug rehab, should you so choose to participate.

“Would you let a drowning child drown because they were stupid enough to get into water over their head? “

Of course not. Children are not mentally developed enough to know when they’re doing something stupid. Adults should be. Also, falling into water and drowning is an accident. Doing drugs is intentional, self-destructive behavior.

“the Narconon Program which has an 80% non-recidivism rate.”

Oh bullplop. That’s propaganda from the narconon program. Ask any addict that’s been clean if they’ve ever fallen off the horse. The vast majority will confess they have.

And legalizing drugs will just make easier for them to access. You’re whole strategy doesn’t make any sense.

Have you ever had a roach problem in your house? Did you just “let the roaches alone” thinking they might just go away? Or try to convince them why they should leave your house and go somewhere else. Perhaps you bathed them, cleaned them up, gave them a tidy shirt and invited them to dine with you.

Personally, I go down to Wal-mart, get a few cans of Raid ® and some Bug Bombs and kill the suckers until they’re all dead. That’s just how I think. I’m certainly not concerned about “how the roaches feel” or if my actions might in some way “infringe on their well-being”. The only good roach is a dead one. Period.

I take the same approach when dealing with druggies. They don’t want to be thought of as roaches then don’t act like ‘em.

“Maybe you want to be a tax-slave but count me out.”

Do you pay your taxes? Do you? Then you’re just as much of slave as me. And if you don’t, then you’re a deadbeat.

Like I said, you’re not going to save one penny by legalization. And you going to cause a whole herd of problems. Ever been to Amsterdam? I have. It’s a shit hole. Had a lot of fun though.

“What is the "logic" for your position?”

Figure it out for yourself.

“You are a real piece of work. “

Thanks.

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Nevermind...I'll spell it out for you

by Eric Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 1:52 PM

"Logic for my position."

1. Drug use is bad. Therefore we can:

a. Give all drug users unhindered access to the drugs of their choice.

b. Offer free drug rehabilitation for those weak minded individuals that so choose to take us up on it (after all, they were smart enough to get hooked, they're obviously smart enough to allow us to unhook them.)

c. Make drug use illegal and severely punish those who break the law. Acts as a deterent to perspective users, keeps neighborhoods relatively clean and schools relatively safe.

I choose "C".


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Question

by Max Thasher Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:05 PM

Why don't we just implement the "legalize drugs" mentality on a global scale, with eveything. We should just allow all nations to build CBR weapons if they want to. We can provide counseling on why it's bad, but hey, they're probably gonna build them anyway.

And I'd like to own a few shoulder fired stinger missile launchers myself. Strictly for "educational" purposes ya know.
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we just might have a party

by FMR G.I. Thursday, Jul. 03, 2003 at 1:01 PM

And it wont be a tea party when these reamed, trained and pissed off combat troops come back to see the empty table waiting for them as they slowly die of inhaled DU dust etc.
Wont have much to lose either. Not all the yellow ribbon in the world will help. You know when you been raped.
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things are heating up

by Sheepdog Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2005 at 5:08 AM

Beware.
They are desperate. We can look forward to a bio-attack from our own black labs ro plunge the nation into a lockdown.
Spread the warning and prepare for war. Right here, against us.
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