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Human Shield to Protect Iraq

by reuters Sunday, Sep. 15, 2002 at 5:50 AM

Anti-war British lawmaker George Galloway will call for international volunteers to form a human shield in Baghdad to try to thwart any attack after he flies to Iraq on Saturday.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/news/world/4069422.htm
Reuters. 13 September 2002. British Lawmaker Wants Human Shield to Protect Iraq.

LONDON -- Anti-war British lawmaker George Galloway will call for
international volunteers to form a human shield in Baghdad to try to
thwart any attack after he flies to
Iraq on Saturday.

"One of the ideas will be an international peace brigade of volunteers
from around the world. People who will go to Iraq and offer themselves
to be witnesses to what may well be about to happen," parliamentarian
George Galloway told Reuters on Friday.

He expected significant numbers of Britons to come forward.

Asked if it would in effect constitute a human shield of people trying
to prevent any bombing raids, he said: "A voluntary one, yes."

He said: "There are many, many millions of British people who are
determined that the Iraqi people will not be bombed in their name."

Galloway, who met President Saddam Hussein last month and has tirelessly
campaigned against war with Iraq, is going to Iraq for the Baghdad peace
conference -- an international group that meets every six months.

"It would normally have met in November, but it has been brought forward
to Monday because of the emergency," said Galloway, a member of Prime
Minister Tony Blair's Labour Party.

Galloway said President Bush was intent on war and had used his speech
to the United Nations in New York on Thursday as a smokescreen tryingto
hide his true intentions.

"It is clear that yesterday's performance in New York was simply a ruse
to pretend that some sort of recourse to the U.N. and diplomacy was
going to be sought," he said.

"I suspect that while war is never inevitable... it is looking
increasingly more likely," Galloway added.

Galloway urged the U.N. Security Council to stand up to what he called
the bullying tactics of the Bush administration.

"If it wants to avoid global turmoil it will stand up and insist upon
taking charge of this matter itself," he said.

Galloway said he did not intend staying in Baghdad with any volunteer
human peace shield. His place was in the corridors of power and on the
streets of London trying to persuade Britain to back out of a coalition
with the United States.

"It is the coalition of the mad dog and the Englishman. If we can stop
the Englishman then we can keep the whole world out of the blinding
midday sun."
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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2003 at 4:44 PM

I suggest that if Mr. Galloway wants to become a human shield, he should do the following: 1) Go to any large city in a country targetted by terrorist organizations (i.e., any Western democracy) who do not tolerate opposition to their version of Islam - or anything else for that matter 2) Go into a skyscraper 3) Mind your own business, obey the law and "live and let live" 4) Chances are that at some point, you very well might become a victim of a fatal attack and will in fact become what you wish - a human shield) This way, you'll save the money from not having to pay air fare, and you will be putting yourself in harm's way.
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You missed the point.

by Charles Sunday, Jan. 19, 2003 at 3:49 PM

The whole point is that America is moving increasingly from democracy towards totalitarianism and fascism, a wealthy ruling elite who control all facets of our lives. Sound farfetched? Check up and see how many of our civil rights have been eroded our taken away since the 60's. By forming a human shield, those with conviction who have been ignored by the bullying, oil-obsessed Bush regime may show that they do not support the actions taken by a country that no longer listens to them and labels those that don't support US-terrorism against impovershed women and children as un-American. I love America and the principles it is based upon and I am abolutely sickened by what has been going on in this country recently. Don't be a zombie! Fight back against America Inc. We still have a Bill of Rights (althought the Homeland Securities act is chipping away at that) make it work for you. You don't need to go to Baghdad to make a positive contribution!
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Sorry, I respect those for peace but not these people

by Randell Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 3:45 AM

The fact is, that by only focusing on protecting the current Iraqi régime, these ‘human shields’ come across – and quite strongly – as apologists (even a supporters) of Saddam. If these people truly felt that all life was sacred, they would be offering themselves as shields where ever people are being killed, instead they seem to have a self-seeking, ego-feeding, narrow view that ultimately benefits a fascist. How can anyone respect a group like that?
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Taliban Johnny revisited

by Bush Admirer Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 5:59 AM

When you provide aid and comfort to the enemy you become the enemy.

Taliban Johnny is learning that lesson the hard way. He's lucky to be alive.

These so-called 'human shield' Iraq visitors are similarly confused. They might come back in a body bag. They might come back to a prison term. They might come back free and despised like Jane Fonda.

At the very minimum they'll earn the ridicule and disgrace which will be heaped upon them by most Americans.

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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 9:52 AM

These "Human Shields" who intend to go to Iraq are just the sort of "useful idiots" that the current totalitarian regime is delighted to have make fools of themselves. I wish I was a fly on the wall when Saddam and his henchmen are alone and laugh their asses off at these people - the jokes must be great! - If they were suffering the the vile tortures and terrified existence of the average Iraqi, I wonder what they would say then? Maybe these people should go to Afghanistan and ask the people if they would appreciate the return of the Taliban, and how they would feel if "human shields" would have helped to have kept that intolerant, criminal organization in control of Afghanistan. I would recommend that they do this close to a US Army unit as possible in order to prevent their eyes from being gouged by the local population by suggesting that they bring thier oppressors back. I know who the real "human shields" are, there are 3,000 of them from every conceivable ethnicreligious background, and their crime was going to work that day.
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Ms.

by Heather Brutz Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 5:59 PM

In response to those claiming that these people are shielding Saddam: if they are stationed in civilian areas and are not in front of military targets they are protecting those civilians and not Saddam's government. The purpose of these groups is to protect civilians, not Saddam. If they prevent the U.S. from bombing water treatment plants like we did in the last war (one of the largest causes of civilian deaths in Iraq in the past decade is lack of clean water), they are protecting the people of Iraq, not Saddam. Do not confuse the people of Iraq with Saddam. These people are not planning on stnading in front of Saddam's palace to protect him.
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Right on

by fresca Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 6:44 PM

I think the idea of a human shield is an excellent idea. Imagine rounding up the likes of Baldwin, Streisand, Chomsky, Sheen et.al, stapling them all together and plopping them down right in the path of a fuel-air bomb. What's not to like?
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Love it

by Bush Admirer Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2003 at 7:38 PM

Fresca and Marc - You're on target! Excellent posts.

Heather -- you're seriously confused. These dumbed down people are certainly not going to help the situation.

They could very well get themselves killed. Our military commanders should say a short prayer for these poor self deluded and misguided dumbos before sending in the bombers.
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Human Shield

by Graham Stone Thursday, Jan. 23, 2003 at 7:00 AM
stone.graham@wanadoo.fr

I like this idea of a human shield but as I’ve always try to seek attention in a more explosive manner, I like to be the first to volunteer as a human cannonball.

Graham Stone (brother to a human shield).
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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Thursday, Jan. 23, 2003 at 11:00 AM

Thanks Graham, and Fresca. As for the charge that we're going in for the oil, I really like the fact that the US was able to get a hold of all those Afghani Oil fields! It certainly wasn't the fact that the Taliban was hosting a criminal-facist-xenophobic-intolerant regime that deliberately targetted CIVILIANS in a skyscraper going to work. One of the highlights of these wonderful guys was the destruction (just before 9/11) of a Buddhist mountain-sized statue that took hundreds of years to build and that was up for a couple thousand years. Question 1: Which country is tolerant of all ethnic/religious minorities?
A. Iraq
B. USA
Question 2: Which country deliberately targets ethnic/religious minorities that do not support their policies?
A. Iraq
B. USA
Question 3: What do you have to say to an Islamic Fundamentalist in order to get him to stop trying to KILL you?
Answer to Question 3: "I agree with EVERYTHING you have EVER said or thought."
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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Thursday, Jan. 23, 2003 at 1:42 PM

I meant to thank "Bush Admirer" as well as Fresca and Graham in my last post. But I really don't understand why these Human Shields don't want to stay (or come to) the US to show support for innocent civilians here. All you have to do is be a civilian in a civilian facility and be a member of ANY ethnic or religious group. C'mon guys, I'm sitting here in the office with my co-workers (my fellow human shields actually). We put our lives on the line every day! How come no one's making a fuss over us?

Question 1:
How many weapons inspectors were sent to Germany after World War I?
A: 0
B: 337
Question 2:
Were they effective in preventing Germany from developing a first-class army for a subsequent war of aggression?
A. Yes (World War II never happened)
B. No (Germany was able to effectively decieve the Weapons inspectors and clandestinely build up an effective military)
Question 3:
Do you think that Libya is the best choice for chairmanship of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights?
A. No (they routinely torture and deny basic rights to individuals or organizations that disagree agree with the Government.
B. Yes (they are an excellent example of how a governemnt respects human rights.
Question 4:
Is the UN an organization that makes good decisions for people in the world?
A. Yes
B. No
Question 5:
Which country goes to the UN to seek its approval BEFORE taking unilateral military action?
A. US
B. Iraq
Question 6:
Which country regularly ignores UN resolutions?
A. US
B. Iraq
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reply

by pedro Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 4:44 AM

I THINK that you are crazy for thinking that the us and
the brits are against saddam for any other reason
than the political nuse that he has put on his own people.this man has to be delt with now before its
to late
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X

by X Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 5:33 AM

Bush informed the world that if Iraq did not disarm then America would be compelled to disarm Iraq. Now, how will America disarm Iraq if it doesn't know where the armaments are? This is an obvious anomaly. But if America does know where the weapons of mass destruction are, why won't it tell the UN weapons inspectors? Even if Iraq possesses such weapons, and America is adamant that it does, is war necessary?

With its conspicuous sophistication and glaring domination, it would be wiser for America to point out the location of such weapons and monitor their destruction, together with ensuring that such activities are never again conducted. It would be more palatable for all parties, as opposed to declaring an all-out war where "guided missiles" are sure to kill many innocent people! Of course, armaments might not be the real issue here.

Also... why is George W. Bush such a fucking moronic redneck idiot?
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Simple

by Simple Simon Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 9:02 AM

You should probably have a seat, x, as this explanation will probably give you ‘the vapors’. We will disarm Iraq by annihilating much of its army and installing a regime friendly to us. We will disarm Iraq by seizing or dynamiting the weapons production facilities, arresting and interrogating the scientists and engineers, and otherwise making it remarkably difficult for pro-Saddam people to operate. In answer to your query, yes, it is necessary to go to war to disarm Saddam. The alternative is for the entire region to be destabilized by a blackmailer who will come to be viewed as a leader in the Arab world because he forced the Americans to back down. He will become increasingly stronger militarily and more influential politically as our European and Chinese friends will be oh-so-happy to do business with him. For the cheap oil. Some more Zyklon-B, Saddam? Sure. Here you go.

The point is not the weapons themselves. The point is to remove from power the man that produces them and intends to use them for nefarious purposes. As to your suggestion that the United States start an Iraqi Whack-a-Mole game by identifying and deactivating all the known sites where weapons are in production, this is not feasible. Much of our intelligence on the location of these weapons comes from humint – human intelligence – ie. Spies and informants. When the Iraqis start having their more secret sites exposed and destroyed, they will have a short list of people to interrogate and liquidate. The well of humint will then dry up, as our informants realize that we are not serious about liberating Iraq, only interested in maintaining the status quo. Then Saddam can work unmolested at his bomb making.

George W. Bush graduated from college and law school. I suspect he is much smarter and better educated than you. Judging by the content of your posts, I would say this has been conclusively proven.
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Distinction

by Marc Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 11:29 AM

"President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html

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Simple

by Simple Simon Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 12:26 PM

I stand corrected. Sorry about that.
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yea

by c17898 Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 at 2:00 PM

He couldn't get accepted to law school...
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Please No War

by T. R.S Monday, Jan. 27, 2003 at 11:13 PM

Why is President Bush so obsessed to get rid of Saddam? Is Bush and the American Bush supporters so eager to wage war whereby hundreds or thousands of people may be killled on both sides. You Bush supporters could not even capture Osama bin Larden, can't even win the war in Korea, Vietnam or even in Africa. You may have liberated Afganistan, but in the process you have caused much hardship to the people of Afganistan. Your objective of capturing Osama bin Larden was never achieved. The best thing for you people who support Bush policy is to find out the root cause of the problem and why the terrorists hate the Americans so much. And because of that many of the innocent white communities are affected and they become targets of the terrorists. I wouldn't want to be a human shield because the Americans are going to bomb Iraq anyway. Going to war with Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism but its Bush Administration's greed to possess Iraqi oil fields. Sadam does not have the weapons of mass destruction. During the war with Iran, it is the Americans who supplied the chemical weapons and weapons of mass destructions to Iraq. If American technology is so superior why aren't they able to detect with their superior gadgets the location of all the weapons of mass destruction that they claim that Saddam has now with him. Bush is a bully, he is an economy terrorists, trying to confiscate and hijack the world economy. He is now going after the oil fields in Iraq.
The Iraqis had chosen their leader, whether its through democratic process or otherwise, and it is the people of Iraq who shoulld decide who their leaders are. NOT BUSH. So let Saddam and his people alone. I appeal to Bush to mind his own business and help the countries which are in dire need of assistance. If Bush wants to test his new weapons, test it in his own country. When Saddam used chemical weapons to kill his own people, it was those chemical weapons supplied to Iraq by the Americans during the Iran-Iraq war. So whats the big deal now? I sympathise the American soldiers who are there in the Gulf to fight the war which is not their doing but Bush's obsession because he fears Saddam will rivel the American's might.. The soldiers will have to sacrifice their lives in a country far away from their homes and their family. So why this war, who is Bush trying to protect? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?
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I have a few questions for Bush Admirer and Simon

by Juanita Greenburg Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 5:51 AM

I am curious about a few things. Now I understand that Hussein is a despotic ruler who has done atrocious things. But I also recognize that the American government has been responisble for some pretty atrocious things as well.

Regarding everthing in proportion, tell me what the indisputable evidence is for going to war with Iraq? Obviously if we do, many innocent people in Iraq are going to die just because the had the misfortune of being born Iraqi. While you on the other hand, are going to be safe and sound in the comfort of your own home, simply because you had the miraculous luck of being born American.

If we're going to go kill people in Iraq, I want to see the proof, the undeniable evidence that tells me why we have to go kill all of these innocent people.

Does America have some underlining motivation that compels our nation to be the freedom fighters of the world, or are we motivated by the same natural characteristics that move all humans to action, namely greed, selfishness, survival, et. al?

Of course we have the power and might to defeat Iraq. We could probably take on most of the world with our powerful military if it came to that. But is that how we want to be seen in the world? Should we care about all of those innocent people that are going to die because of the Bush/Hussein feud that has been going on for 20 years? Or should we turn a blind eye and just let it happen? After all, it really won't affect me that much in MY daily life. I'll still get up, drive my SUV to work, collect my reasonable wages, go home to my 4-bedroom house with my wife and 2-1/2 children. The staus quo in America will continue uninterrupted while thousands die needlessly.

And should we label those who try to convince us that we may be wrong as terrorists or enemy combatants? That's crazy in my opinion.

These human shields are not defending Hussein. They're not abetting the enemy. They're not attacking America. They're not taking up arms against our soldiers. They're trying to tell us that path we're headed down is the wrong one. They're trying to lead by example. They're putting their own lives on the line for what they believe in, which is peace.

Now I am no peacenik. I can bang the wardrum as loudly as any warmonger you'd ever like to meet. But maybe ... just maybe we (America) is wrong here?
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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 10:35 AM

To T.R.S. - first, your term "You Bush Supporters" exposes your prejudices. Just because someone wants to protect oneself from a bully doesn't make one a "Bush Supporter" or "eager to make war". It is only common sense to "be eager to defend oneself". And, the last time I checked, it is the inherent right of all countries to self-defense, when someone punches you in the face, you don't have to ask permission from someone else to punch him back. As for us not being able to take care of Afghanistan, you offer no suggestions - maybe you think we should have left "well enough alone" and continued to watch the Taliban criminal organization practice their medieval techniques on a captive and terrorized population while cloaked under the guise of religion. Not that the US went in there for the Afghani people, we went there to get the guys that got us - plain and simple. You decry that "we Bush Supporters" couldn't even capture Osama bin Laden, are you pissed off? Does that mean that you wanted us to catch him? "Couldn't even win the war in Korea?" Again, did you wnat us to win? And what is winning? Conquering the North? At least the people in the South can vote and eat. "The Iraqis had chosen their leader?" "Whether it is through democratic process or OTHERWISE?" I'm thinking "OTHERWISE", in other words "NOT DEMOCRATICALLY". What about that poor Iraqi schmuck who appealed to the UN inspectors to "save him" - they turned him over to the tender mercies of the Iraqi police - Nice. This attack is not about liberating Iraq, or about the oil fields - it is about survival - pure and simple - but if liberating the Iraqi people, and securing the oil fields for the ungrateful and cowardly Europeans who rely on Mideast oil much more than the US - so be it. By the way, just because someone wants to see the American democracy defend itself against the attacks of the intolerant, racist, xenophobic criminals and their supporters - doesn't make one a "Bush Supporter" - it makes one a human being who understands that one has a better chance of leading a normal and free existence in the US than in "The country run by Saddam and his gang Iraq" or "The cult of personality North Korea".
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Sopher = Saddam

by Baphomet Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 11:25 AM

DIckless Sopher says: "It is only common sense to "be eager to defend oneself". And, the last time I checked, it is the inherent right of all countries to self-defense, when someone punches you in the face, you don't have to ask permission from someone else to punch him back." Sopher, meet your spritiual mate Osama Bin Laden. You just explained his rationale for the terrorist attacks perfectly, macho boy!

Then the ignoramous has the balls to spew: "As for us not being able to take care of Afghanistan, you offer no suggestions - maybe you think we should have left "well enough alone" and continued to watch the Taliban criminal organization practice their medieval techniques on a captive and terrorized population while cloaked under the guise of religion. " The right wingers didn't give a flying fuck about this when they were wining and dining (and probably 69ing) the Taliban in Houston, nor did the Bushies give a fuck when they handed the Taliban 43 million of our tax dollars the spring prior to 911. It was the lefties pointing out what psychos the Taliban were. Suddenly the rightwingers are bleeding hearts weeping crocodile tears for the poor oppressed Afghanis. Bullshit! And for your info, moron, Afghanistan is needed to put a pipeline through, from the oil and gas in Central Asia. Shortest route to the ports of Pakistan. They already cut the deal! Could you possibly be more ill informed as you advocate raining death and destruction on people?

More ignorance: "The Iraqis had chosen their leader?" The most glaring, flaming ignorance in this garbled rant is the fact that the CIA, and our tax dollars, helped install Hussein. The US, and allies, armed him and propped him up throughout the 70's and 80's. When he gassed the Kurds, Reagan lied and repeatedly said it was the Iranians. Remember? What, Limbaugh didn't tell you that? How can you live being so ignorant?

Straw man argument: "it makes one a human being who understands that one has a better chance of leading a normal and free existence in the US than in "The country run by Saddam and his gang Iraq" or "The cult of personality North Korea". Well no shit sherlock, and this is inspite of stupid brown shirts such as yourself, who are macho and ignorant, eager to rain the fires of hell on whichever enemy of the day is funnelled into your pumpkin little head. If you grew up in North Korea you would be spewing the government line, just like you do here, never questioning or informing yourself, and attacking those who did question the Great Leader. In fact, there you could join the secret police, get a nifty uniform maybe, and disappear those who questioned the Great Leader.

Fearful, ignorant puppet.

Get informed, asshole. Or get off our website. And take the other moronic, ignorant, trolls with you.



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Mr.

by Marc Sopher Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 3:48 PM

"Dickless, Ignoramus, Brown Shirt?" - That's it Baphomet - you obviously got rattled when you read my stuff - or you wouldn't have reduced yourself to uninspired personal insults. You've confused my position of wanting TO STAY ALIVE with being a "Brown shirt"? I know of many people who barely escaped alive on nine-eleven, and as far as I can tell, those fucking assholes who DELIBERATELY targeted civilians didn't care who they killed, - just the other day, another name was added to the list " (Khalid M. Shahid, age 25). I'm not an expert on ethnology or religion, but that sounds Muslim to me, only 25 years old you fucking PRICK! What kind of moron are you? And I'm a "Brown Shirt?" for being outraged!? You've breathed new life into the old tired argument "no blood for Oil!" into Afghanistan? (New conspiracy theory here?) So according to you we were just waiting for an excuse to go in there! And of course the right-wingers didn't give a flying fuck about the Afghani people, but that's irrelevant - it's WHERE THE GUYS ARE WHO ARE KILLING US! "If you grew up in North Korea you'd be spewing the government line?" This, coming from someone who's telling me to get off OUR website? What's the matter? Don't like it when someone disagrees with you? Too fucking bad! That's what happens when people have freedom of speech. Why don't you go to a website where everyone has the same opinions?
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TO SIMPLE SIMON

by X Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 6:48 PM

So just someone goes to college means he can't be a fucking moronic redneck idiot?
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Video

by fresca Tuesday, Jan. 28, 2003 at 6:59 PM

http://home.attbi.com/~zotter/ac130_gunshipmed.wmv
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Sopher = Asshole dancing on graves of the dead

by Baphomet Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 10:46 AM

No Scrotum Sopher,
It's your mind numbing ignorance of reality and regurgitated lies that offend me, not your stupid statements. Right wing thugs always fall back on: "you obviously got rattled when you read my stuff " and other such puffery when confronted. Don't flatter yourself. Ignorance -- willfull ignorance -- really really bugs me. And since some days my anger management skills aren't so good, so tough shit for you.

"So according to you we were just waiting for an excuse to go in there! And of course the right-wingers didn't give a flying fuck about the Afghani people, but that's irrelevant - it's WHERE THE GUYS ARE WHO ARE KILLING US! " Does that mean you'll quit the bleeding heart bullshit already? You don't give a shit about small, skinny brown people in third world countries, never have, never will, so spare us your hypocrisy.

"You've confused my position of wanting TO STAY ALIVE with being a "Brown shirt"? " The point is, your propagandized, ignorant, fearful (and small) brain is being manipulated by crooks and thugs, (aka, the Bush Admin), turning you into a flag-waving war-monger, instead of an informed patriot that sees through lies. You are misguided. You think we don't want to avoid more attacks? You are supporting an agenda that ENSURES more terrorism.

"You've breathed new life into the old tired argument "no blood for Oil!" into Afghanistan? (New conspiracy theory here?) So according to you we were just waiting for an excuse to go in there! " Not we, moron. The Bushies and their Oily buddies. It's well documented (you could find out for yourself, of course. Don't wait around for Limbaugh to spell it out for you.) And again, the pipeline deal is a done deal.

"I know of many people who barely escaped alive on nine-eleven, and as far as I can tell, those fucking assholes who DELIBERATELY targeted civilians didn't care who they killed." This type of manipulation doesn't work on me, stupido. It's also incredibly tacky. Let me get this straight . . . you are outraged at civilian death. But you want to carpet bomb Iraq. Hmm . . . how can you rationalize that? You think 800 Tomahawks unleashed on Baghdad isn't terror? This must be one of many things, besides your fear, driving you insane. Snap out of it!

"That's what happens when people have freedom of speech!" More hypocrisy. Bush protestors being corraled into "first amendment zones." A corporate owned media dictating the range of dialogue in this nation. Peace activists attacked as unpatriotic. You and the other right wing thugs don't give a flying fuck about the first amendment. Or debate. Or free speech.

Dickless, your moronic rants only accent your ignorance about what is going on in the world, and how our "National Security State" works. If you could actually think for yourself, you might become a better informed person from viewing some of the posts at this site. Instead you choose to spew Bushite propoganda, dismiss well documented facts as "conspiracy" and remain pawn. You could become more aware of social justice issues, the concerted attack on civil society, the criminality of this Administration, it's incompetence . . . but no. You remain blind and ignorant. A puppet. A thug. Bush (Karl Rove) pulls you around by your uninformed fears, telling you to go here, go there . . . It's sad. Maybe someday you'll think for yourself, maybe give a shit about other humans.

I saw the towers come down. I felt the horror and anger and grief. Don't doubt that. I am still trying to process something so hideous. But that's no reason to just turn off your brain and critical thinking skills. I had hoped the government would do the right thing. But they didn't. The Bushies have deliberately exploited this horror to advance their own fascist war for oil and against us. I've watched the gov bomb civilians in third world countries, try to quash dissent, gut our civil rights and liberties, try to institute Orwellian big brother surveillance of the American people, fuck up the economy, the environment, just one thing after another. And the US is not one iota safer. Not one. If anything, we are in more trouble than ever. And when this war with Iraq begins, it will lead to even more people pissed off at the US. I've watched the Bushies squander almost universal good will and turn it into universal distrust and anger! Only the Bushies could do that! They are dancing on the graves of the 911 dead, and if you buy into their lies, you are too! And if you or your ilk ever, ever question my grief and pain over this, or my patriotism, I will smash the shit out of you!



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What a testosterone bath this thread has become.

by Juanita Greenburg Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 11:02 AM

You guys don't realize exactly how silly you look, arguing and spouting invective upon vitriol upon vituperation at each other via the internet.

Please get lives. Or at least address the inquisitive post above that I was considerate enough to spend my time on, and mind you, presented it in a tactful manner.

Throwing cyber-sticks and virtual mental masturbation accomplishes little.

You're acting like silly little girls.
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Juanita

by Marc Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 11:09 AM

Welcome, for good, bad, and/or ugly, to LA-Indymedia. If you surf around the threads, sadly, this sort of adversarial theme is pervasive.
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Excuuuuuse me!

by Baphomet Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 11:10 AM

Juanita, thanks for the advice, but like I said, I don't always have the necessary anger management skills when confronted with idiocy.

Also, I do have a life, and I am offended that my sincere angst would be called "mental masturbation."

How dare you?
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Baphomet - Bloviator

by Marc Sopher Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 12:07 PM

O thou infectious, fool-born maggot.
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Chill

by Highlord Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 12:14 PM

Baphomet . . . chill! Everything's gonna be okay! Sopher's and his kind are going down.
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To which display of idiocy are you referring exactly?

by Juanita Greenburg Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 12:36 PM

A significant burden of idiocy rests with your posts Baphomet. It seems to me that there is a large amount of "willful ignorance" in your posts, as well as in the jauntings of many other liberals, about where conservative thinkers are coming from.

Americans are angry over 9-11. Saddam Hussein is a butcher and a liar that has the blood of thousands on his hands. To say that you can't fathom why the right thinks the way it does is as bizarre as calling all liberals baby killers because some favor abortion.

Weight your responses a little.
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Baphomet

by Marc Sopher Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 12:38 PM

I get it. Anyone who disagrees with you is a right wing thug. I didn't even know Limbaugh was still on TV (actually I've never even seen the show). You also seem to think that I want to carpet bomb Iraq. "Small Skinny Brown People" - how patronizing. You obviously seem to think I'm a racist as well without any mention of race whatsoever. You introduced that baseless accusation out of the blue - again - I don't agree with you, so just heap some loathsome attribute on someone who doesn't agree with your childish rants. Why not just call me a witch and see if I float if dropped in a lake? You know so much about me without even having met me. You are painted with the same brush that the people who say the anti-war types are unpatriotic. Somehow, anyone who doesn't blindly follow your dogmatic self-righteous blather is a Racist, Right wing thug. I remember people like you in the sixties who would call all those opposed to the Vietnam War "Commies". Your earlier post mentioned how we put Saddam and the Taliban in power. I hate to admit it - but YOU ARE RIGHT! So what do we do NOW? Walk away from the situation and wait for it to come crashing down on us again? Do you care? Any bright ideas Einstein? This country could use some CONSTRUCTIVE solutions instead of relentless bashing and criticizing. And FYI - I'm not a "Bushie" - I didn't even vote for him - I just don't want to become a shill for Saddam Hussein. As for you being a left-winger (which is the camp I assume you believe you belong to), don't fool or flatter yourself. You sound more like someone who should be carrying a banner at the NAZI rallies in Nuremburg. I remember the left-wing and many of the sincerely dedicated and bright people in it, before the today's so-called left embraced some of the most vile and corrupt individuals, regimes and movements the world has ever seen, and you Baphomet - are no left-winger. And threatening to kick the shit out of me? You're a peaceful person? NOT! You are a tardy-gaited dewberry who probably has bad breath.
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Juanita

by Marc Sopher Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 12:40 PM

My point exactly.
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violence begets violence

by does it matter Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 5:26 PM

I believe it has been said that violence begets violence. On the other hand, from the varied comments listed here, all I am reading is a casual nonchalant refernce to human suffering and death. It's no wonder that people like Ariel Sharon, George Bush and Saddam Husein are in power. Is it even worth arguing against this hollow banter? Regardless, would those of you who speak so freely of pain and war agree that violence does not 'beget' peace? My thoughts on those who volunteer to act as human shields,...at the very worst you're idealists. Thank you for providing hope, conviction, compassion and passion in a world ready to conform and uniform.
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A tardy-gaited dewberry who probably has bad breath.

by Bush Admirer Wednesday, Jan. 29, 2003 at 8:21 PM

Marc - You are a master poet and political commentator. Laughomet has been put into his place :-)

The subject of this thread, human shields in Iraq, reminds me that there are four kinds of people in this world.

First there are those who are both smart and industrious. They make good leaders and entrepreneurs. They know what to do, and they have a knack for getting things done.

Next you have those who are smart but lazy. They make good college professors. They don't have to work too hard, but they do get to show off their brilliance.

Third, you have those who are lazy and dumb. They were perfect for British infantry duty during the Revolutionary war -- just line them up and tell them to march forward into enemy guns. They're also perfect candidates for human shield duty in Iraq. Most of them wind up as government employees.

And fourth, there are those people who are dumb and industrious. They can be dangerous, the proverbial loose cannon. Anti-war protest dissident demonstrators are a good example. Lots of energy but not a clue.
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Miss

by Perfect Thursday, Jan. 30, 2003 at 2:05 AM

Why are most Americans blind and can't see the truth?
Why should people in the whole world suffer just so that USA and it's leaders become rich!
I hope Bush and all those who support him burn in hell!
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I think you're generalizing.

by Juanita Thursday, Jan. 30, 2003 at 7:43 AM

I don't think that most Americans can not see the truth any more than I think most Chinese can't see it, or most Iraqis can see it or most Europeans can see it for that matter.

There is little in the world that is black and white. There is a whole spectrum of grey, and truth is in the eye of the beholder alone. One man's truth is another man's blatant lie.

I do not believe America or it's government is hell bent on destroying the globe in order to make itself, or the country in general, more wealthy than it already is. To believe as much is naive.

I do believe that before we go kill people in war, both he Iraqis and our own people, we must first consider exactly why we are doing this. We must conclusively know all of the facts.

Ask yourself, "Am I willing to go and kill Iraqis based on what I'm being told by my government?" and "am I willing to give up my own life for this cause?"

The President made a strong case last night in his State of the Union Address. I'm not sure I really understood what was going on with the UN weapons Insepctors, and what we'd hoped to achieve by sending them back in, until I heard the President on it last night.
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Defend the American People

by Marc Sopher Thursday, Jan. 30, 2003 at 9:01 AM

To “Does it Matter”
I’m sure you are sincere that in your belief that “violence begets violence” – after all, it ‘s true. But that is not the salient point here. By going to Iraq and becoming human shields, these people are doing nothing to reduce the level of violence – in fact, they are effectively supporting the continued existence of this horrific regime by providing sensational images to be used as propaganda that serves it’s purposes.
To “Juanita”
One of the best posts I have seen. Everything is not “Black and White” – anyone who believes so is either a fanatic, or incredibly naïve. A nuclear-armed and emboldened Iraq still run by Saddam’s Mafia is inimical to the security of the American people. And you’re right, just because someone believes that disarming Iraq is necessary doesn’t mean that they are hellbent on “bombing the world”, or are right-wing racist thugs, or are the repository of all the loathsome attributes that can be heaped upon them.
To “Bush Admirer”
Thanks for the post, but I can’t take credit for those well-placed insults just go to http://www.edgewood.net/www/demo/JavaScript/sik-js.html and you’ll find the appropriate Shakespearean insults to put people like “Baphomet the Bloviator” in their places.
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What is the point...

by does it matter Thursday, Jan. 30, 2003 at 4:54 PM

If it is true that voilence begets violence, how has the 'point' been missed? I think we are best to reflect on what is happening in our own countries and when you say that allowing Iraq to 'live' is perpetuating a horrific regime, I think you may have missed the point. At the end of the day, a horrific regime is always in power. I don't expect I will elaborate any further.

Don' get me wrong, I think America, as the major unilateral power, has a vital role to play. I just think, like many people in control, that the game is not only being played badly but that it is messing up with people's values.

I don't believe one of the human shields is condoning what is happening in Iraq, instead they are protesting what is happening in America. In the end we believe what we want to believe. I guess if people can distort and twist religious words to suit their own ends then I shouldn't be surprised to hear that these human shields are viewed as being a tool for Saddam Hussein. Can't the simple truth be that they feel impotent in the face of power and feel that this is the only way to express a fundamental point. Why can't you give this thought some credibility? Why is it easier for you to beleive the twisted logic that comes out of the mouths of men with power?

You're right Marc, the point is being missed and that is that we are all part of one race and no "axis of evil' can divide us. All this nonsense that we are talking about means nothing. When you see someone screaming in pain...what do all these words mean anyhow?
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Cinicism or innocence

by João D./Portugal Friday, Jan. 31, 2003 at 9:55 AM

It´s true that human shields can be used by Hussein not to stop the war (I think that will not be enough), but to try to "embarce" the USA government internationally, like the anti-war in Vietnam manifestants did before!It´s true that USA are terrorists in a less uncovered way. Our world is filled with a kind of cinicism that knows no borders, from our personal motivations to the "secret" affairs off a nation surounded and bounded by major economical interests. I think this is true everywere.So, human shields, Ithink you should question not only Amercica but every country that is a slave of terrorism in all shapes.They are many: In the past you could sart on my one!If you are speakin your hearts and minds free of yourselves, you have my single support.USA doesn´t have it along time ago.
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Mr.

by Gianni Scoz Friday, Jan. 31, 2003 at 10:44 AM
gianni.scoz@tin.it

for my experience schooling and intelligence do not always go hand in hand.
Given time and money any "fucking moronic redneck idiot" can obtain a diploma.
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Smart money says

by Shane Wednesday, Feb. 05, 2003 at 6:39 PM

The smart money says that if I were Saddam and cowardly like he is that I would go hide under the skirts of the civilians. DUH!!!
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I am a Human Shield

by Marc Sopher Wednesday, Feb. 12, 2003 at 1:53 PM

I'm gonna go into the NYC subway and hope to get home alive today. I invite Mr. Galloway (and anyone else) to join me.
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pathetic

by whatever Thursday, Feb. 13, 2003 at 4:25 PM

whiny egotistical shit. Try making sense and not using words just because you have fingers to type with.
If you were some Palestinian youth growing in rubble, I could understand the sarcasm but where the fuck do you get off?
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pathetic

by marc sopher Friday, Feb. 14, 2003 at 3:17 PM

What's your point? Human shields in Iraq, human shields here, what does the fact "some Palestinan youth growing up in rubble" have to do with the millions who are facing terrorist attack here in the US and the "Involuntary human shields" (i.e. The Iraqi people) that are living under a regime that refuses to disarm even after the international community has asked it to do so? My point is direct. The people who are preparing to become human shields in Iraq claim to want to stop war. The war against us started some time ago and is continuing and is about to heat up right here in NYC. Why not position yourself in NYC and ask al Quaeda not to deliberately attack civilians instead of going to Iraq to be a shill for Saddam?
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Home Grown Terror

by Diogenes Friday, Feb. 14, 2003 at 3:32 PM

If we get a "Terror" attack you can be reasonably certain it is not Saddam. He is Psychopathic not suicidal. The timing is wrong as he is tryin to avoid being squished in U.S. led massacre. He will give no provocation.

Also as a foot note the strain of Anthrax that AMERICAN TYPE CULTURE CORPORATION sold to Saddam is the Ames strain. The strain used in the Anthrax mailings was the Vollums strain.
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To So-fur, better late than never

by Baphomet Friday, Feb. 14, 2003 at 4:02 PM

"You also seem to think that I want to carpet bomb Iraq." Yes, I do. That will be the outcome of your bloodthirst.

"You sound more like someone who should be carrying a banner at the NAZI rallies in Nuremburg."

Interesting accusation from one who blindly follows a madman leader around, believing everything he says.
You really went out on a limb there, So-dumb. You are pushing for a stupid war that the rest of the world and much of our own country is against. You are blind to your own ignorance and bloodthirst, that I so shrilly tried to point out to you. Who belongs at a NAZI rally? You would feel much more at home, I'm sure.

"I don't agree with you, so just heap some loathsome attribute on someone who doesn't agree with your childish rants." You just described why you come to this site. Yeah, I did cut loose on you, but how dare you criticize? And project so? Puss.

"You know so much about me without even having met me. You are painted with the same brush that the people who say the anti-war types are unpatriotic. " Typical rightwing whining and martyr complex. Suddenly you are the victim in this whole thing. You come to this site to bully people with your Faux News style propoganda, and then cry when someone stands up to you. You have the Pentagon on your side. You have the Bush Administraiton on your side. You have the arms industry and the oil industry on your side. You have the CIA on you side. GIve me a break. You are not a victim.

"I remember people like you in the sixties who would call all those opposed to the Vietnam War "Commies". " This is absurd. I would have opposed the war and I would have been called a "Commie" by you.

"This country could use some CONSTRUCTIVE solutions instead of relentless bashing and criticizing. " To true. There are countless constructive solutions that are never discussed in the mainstream media. Just because you are ignorant of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Just as all you do is mock and complain about anti-war folk.

"I just don't want to become a shill for Saddam Hussein." Who does? The last shills for Saddam were your buddies Reagan and Bush I. Oh, and let's not forget Rummy.

"I remember the left-wing and many of the sincerely dedicated and bright people in it, before the today's so-called left embraced some of the most vile and corrupt individuals, regimes and movements the world has ever seen, and you Baphomet - are no left-winger. " Would you care to clarify this absolutely baseless and ridiculous rant? You're right, in realty, I'm not much of a left-winger, whatever that is. I don't have an ideology. But I do hate the right-wing fascists in this country. That's why I unleashed on your annoying, punk-ass.
"You know so much about me without even having met me. " Don't cry out for understanding from me. I don't care this week.



I get it. Anyone who disagrees with you is a right wing thug. I didn't even know Limbaugh was still on TV (actually I've never even seen the show). You also seem to think that I want to carpet bomb Iraq. "Small Skinny Brown People" - how patronizing. You obviously seem to think I'm a racist as well without any mention of race whatsoever. You introduced that baseless accusation out of the blue - again - I don't agree with you, so just heap some loathsome attribute on someone who doesn't agree with your childish rants. Why not just call me a witch and see if I float if dropped in a lake? You know so much about me without even having met me. You are painted with the same brush that the people who say the anti-war types are unpatriotic. Somehow, anyone who doesn't blindly follow your dogmatic self-righteous blather is a Racist, Right wing thug. I remember people like you in the sixties who would call all those opposed to the Vietnam War "Commies". Your earlier post mentioned how we put Saddam and the Taliban in power. I hate to admit it - but YOU ARE RIGHT! So what do we do NOW? Walk away from the situation and wait for it to come crashing down on us again? Do you care? Any bright ideas Einstein? This country could use some CONSTRUCTIVE solutions instead of relentless bashing and criticizing. And FYI - I'm not a "Bushie" - I didn't even vote for him - I just don't want to become a shill for Saddam Hussein. As for you being a left-winger (which is the camp I assume you believe you belong to), don't fool or flatter yourself. You sound more like someone who should be carrying a banner at the NAZI rallies in Nuremburg. I remember the left-wing and many of the sincerely dedicated and bright people in it, before the today's so-called left embraced some of the most vile and corrupt individuals, regimes and movements the world has ever seen, and you Baphomet - are no left-winger. And threatening to kick the shit out of me? You're a peaceful person? NOT! You are a tardy-gaited dewberry who probably has bad breath.

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OxyMORONs Indeed

by Diogenes Friday, Feb. 14, 2003 at 7:33 PM

Kind of like "honest Bush supporter".
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Why be a human shield?

by Marc Sopher Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 9:25 AM

"So-fur?" Aw c'mon Laughomet, even YOU can do better than that. And “I’m a Nazi”, “no YOU are!” “No I’m not!” “Yes you are!” Am not!” “Am too!” There you are Baphomet, (you puny, flea-bitten haggard) – that’s about as intelligent an argument as anyone will get from you. - Actually the only recent act of terror that I can recall is seeing your tedious tantrum here (most of it just a copy-paste from my own posts). Responding to your tiresome and inaccurate tirade would be like discussing human rights with Pol Pot or Khadafy (whoops, almost forgot, the Libyan leader IS the one to see at the UN about human rights these days, and get this, Iraq will soon be in charge of disarmament). That UN – what a bunch of kidders!

So instead, I’ll remind myself that this site describes how some people are offering to go to Iraq as human shields in the event of a US-led attack. I would appreciate it if someone would present a serious argument, (that's not you Baphy), or a reasonably well-thought out reason why someone should consider such an act. What do people hope to accomplish by doing this? Would a similar act here in the US achieve the same goals? Would the people who would go to Iraq consider showing solidarity with the American people as well by publicly performing a similar act here in the US?
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I guess it's not rational

by Sheepdog Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 10:51 AM

To run in front of a speeding car to
save a childs life either, is it?
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Rightwing hypocrites

by Granny Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 10:59 AM

So-fur and BushSucker come to this site as guests, and heap propoganda and mockery on its users. This site is a community effort, and they and there ilk have the balls to come here and abuse this privilege provided them. Manners would dictate that guests here of opposing views keep a civil tongue in their heads. But, the rightwing did away with civil dialogue long ago.

If someone fights back against their provocations, in typical rightwing bully cowardice, they immediately play the victim and dissolve into whining turds. You see, this goes against the rightwing maxim that "No one has the right to fight back."

Well get used to it, warts. If you come here, don't expect to deal with handwringing Tom Daschle types, or the punching bags the Mass Media provides to as a semi-alternate view to the corporate mantras.

And please, if you do get your ass kicked repeatedly, by the likes of KPC, Diogenes, Sheepdog, et. al., no sniveling!
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Hey Granny

by Marc Sopher Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 3:53 PM

I guess you think that use of the term "Bush-sucker" or "Warts" is civil - or mentioning that "asses getting kicked repeatedly" (by your buddies hiding behind their knicknames) is an example of good manners. These comments are rude, uncivil and contain a threat of physical violence (I'm assuming you are against war and non-violent, but maybe I'm reaching here) - because your tactics would be the envy of the Ernst Roehm's of this world (he was in charge of Hitler's Stormtroopers in case you elected not to study such an odious example of bullying - and limited yourself to what seemed agreeable to you and you friends). So far, the only ones who have threatened physical violence are "you and your community." Also, are you not a "guest" as well, or are you somehow exempt from civil behavior? Obviously, you retrograded into uncivil and peasant-like behavior instead of actually responding to my earlier questions. I AM STILL WAITING for an intelligent (and civil) answer.

I respectfully invite you (or anyone else if you are incapable) to respond civily to those questions - as I am actually interested in determining the rationale behind going to Iraq and becoming a human shield. As for heaping propaganda - did it ever occur to you that maybe you should consider other points of view - and the advantage of availing yourself of information from other sources and people? Even those who don't agree with you? I do. That's why I'm here. I really want to know what the purpose of this activitiy is - and what purpose it will serve.

Instead of remaining in the company of like-minded people, challenge yourself - convince me you are right and that I am wrong - or don't you think you are capable? (And please don't say that "people like me can't be convinced") - a cogent, (and civil) argument is always considered, appreciated and is the foundation of Democracy (a system that encourages the LIBERAL exhchange of opposing ideas in case you forgot). And Granny, you're under the impression that anyone who disagrees with YOU is a "right-winger" - this accusation comes out more often on this site than speeding tickets at the Indy 500. People are much more complex than a simple "you're either with us or against us."

I'm willing to consider any and every point of view as a matter of intellectual growth, and am open to the suggestion that I might actually be wrong, are you?

But, as Confucious said: "A fool NEVER changes his mind."
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Life is tough.

by Diogenes Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 4:05 PM

"A fanatic is someone who can't change their mind, and won't change the subject." - Sir Winston Churchill

As for the human shields - a hollow gesture - even though I do share and support their motives.

Darwins for all.
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Perhaps a Ticket for you as well?

by Diogenes Saturday, Feb. 15, 2003 at 6:29 PM

Given your undying support for War perhaps you might like a gun, a ticket, and a parachute?

My treat.
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Why be a Human shield for Iraq?

by Marc Sopher Sunday, Feb. 16, 2003 at 9:30 AM

Diogenes, a hollow gesture? I agree. But what would be a more appropriate action/gesture? And WHY do you support their motives?

Bush Admirer - I like the suggestions regarding the hollywooders - but let's face it - anyone who relys on the likes of Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn or Barbara Streisand for guidance regarding important National and International issues is clearly in need of some help or is watching too much TV.
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Humanity

by Diogenes Sunday, Feb. 16, 2003 at 3:04 PM

Because we live on a war torn little mud ball. I am tired of killing being considered a "Statesmanlike" response. Let's try a few alternatives before engaging in another Bloodbath.

Besides, protestations to the contrary, I would be more likely to purchase a Futures Contract on the Brooklyn Bridge than believe the current Cabal in the White House is doing this for humanitarian reasons.
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Not about liberation

by Marc Sopher Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 3:27 PM

This impending war is clearly not about liberating the Iraqi people. Any such talk is designed to serve as a side order to the main goal - disarming Saddamm Hussein. The US government, believes that this is necessary for our own security reasons and the security of other governments in the region - all of whom would be delighted to see him go.
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Weak

by Sheepdog Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 4:52 PM

Still don't buy it even
with a MOCKINGBIRD lead in.
Rule one.
Support your position with something
other than pure BS.
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Further comments

by Sheepdog Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 5:11 PM

These humans are reaching out to
their brothers and sisters. It matters not to them
as to the question of survival but to the love
of the family they belong to.
Any other responce is sub human.
Bite me.
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You Forgot a Few Points

by Diogenes Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 5:59 PM

BA you missed a few points so helpful me to the rescue:

Expend as much Ordnance as possible to bolster the Carlyle Groups bottom line.

Establish a Hegemonic Beachead.

Secure the Oil Fields.

Turn the keys to the pumps over to Halliburton.

Repeat in Iran

Repeat in Saudi Arabia

Repeat Endlessly ensuring a sea of blood and gas tanks filled with the destroyed lives of millions of people.
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Gosh Bush Admirer.

by Sheepdog Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 6:22 PM

Actually I look like this.
(clear your mind ha ha )
Picture a 180lb 6' From nose to tail
Trim and long haired sheepdog. The english kind.
You know, the kind you humans think we can't see you
through with all that hair protecting our eyes.
Genetically endowed with polyploid (triploid, I
consider diploids to be inferior) self replicating
DNA. I learned to read. Then produce many sons
( ask my teen aged mistres) so
stay tuned for Saga Of Sheepdog's Rampage.
I just keep getting bigger but it's slowing down now.
Bite me. Make my day.
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Well alrighty then!

by Marc Sopher Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 8:17 PM

I'm glad to see that the level and quality of the discourse on this august website has improved!
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The picture

by Marc Sopher Monday, Feb. 17, 2003 at 8:22 PM

Bush Admirer: The picture was funny in a disturbing sort of way, keep up the good work!
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